Why do people give up?

[Fuji Abound]

This topic has cropped up on another thread so it seemed worthy of discussion.

As we all know the number of pilots who let their newly won PPL lapse after only a few years is enormous. Why? After all they have spent a lot of time and money gaining their PPL in the first place.

Now the problem with the question is that the target audience that can really answer the question is no longer reading this forum!

However, for those of us that have thought about it, or even done so, or know friends that have given up we might have an insight.

Obvious thoughts come to mind:

Just did it in the first place for the sense of achievement,

Cost,

Fed up with going around in circles,

Disillusioned.

I wonder.

Personally I dont think it is economic. This may be a factor at the moment but the fact is even in the boom years the drop out rate was huge unless it is more generally that people dont appreciate the ongoing "investment" required whatever the economic enviroment.

[Wycombe]

Well, I suspect I am one of your target audience, but still Pprune because my interests and past connections extend beyond Private Flying.

The one and only reason I gave up, hopefully not forever, with approx 270hrs, is cost!

When I got my PPL in the mid-90's, I was still single (just), didn't have a big mortgage, or kids....you get the picture.

At the end of the day, flying was a hobby for me, and with lots of other more important demands on the family cash, a halt had to be called....although I hasten to add, it was my own decision and not at all forced upon me.

A couple of weeks ago, I found myself in the Clubhouse at the airfield where I gained by PPL (actually not Wycombe!), eyeing up the "shares for sale" etc. on the noticeboard.....will be a while, but am determined to "get back in the saddle" one day.

[vanHorck]

VFR flying.... too many controlled airspace restrictions leading to fear of making mistakes?

[Pace]

I think most of us have been close at times especially the ones who dont have an aviation career in mind.

A lot of motivation is the goal. Like anything in life we have an expectation!
to succeed is an achievement to not succeed is a failure. Succeeding makes us feel good failure makes us feel bad.

We are all driven by wanting more.

I remember the story of the pilot flying a piper cub low level.

He looked up and saw the guy flying a retractable fast single. "If Only I could have that I would be satisfied"
The retractable single guy looked up and saw a turbine twin. "If Only I could have that I would be satisfied".
The twin guy looked up and saw a jet. "If Only I could have that I would be satisfied".
The jet guy looked up and saw Concorde."If Only I could have that I would be satisfied".
The Concorde guy looked down and saw the Piper cub. "If Only I could have that I would be satisfied". :)

So I think many have that goal of reaching being a PPL which is a costly business. Having achieved that and gone through the Glory stage of puffing out their chests taking friends and girlfriends for a ride the costs and what to do next hit hard.

Also there is the deflated period, we save like mad to get a car, once we get that car and have achieved the goal the whole thing goes flat and we look for another goal.

In aviation that can be an IMC rating a Multi rating a better faster aircraft or a new direction ie into the commercial world.

Aircraft are like any other forms of transport TRANSPORT. They have to be useable, reliable and competative compared to the train, boat, car.

Ie they have to have a purpose. Those who are not mega wealthy I believe loose that purpose, loose that motivation. When they get to the point of thinking "what am I doing here! can I afford this self indulgence a lot drop out.

They drop out because as another poster said life events change or they cannot do enough flying to keep that interest going.

Even in the commercial world there are many times when you think "what am I doing here" ? A load of Hassle, not being paid, more expense, keeping type ratings and licences /medicals going, Bad flights, having to fly when you dont want to, Grumpy customers, lack of new goals! Friends who get killed in aviation.

Then you have a flight which kindles the passions you once had and leaves you with that great buzz at the end of the day.

Then you know why you fly! The more you put in the more you get out is true in anything including aviation.

Pace

[pulse1]

I think that the strain of trying to keep current on a limited budget in UK weather starts to make one wonder if its all worth the effort. If you can only afford to rent for about an hour a month, you won't go anywhere and it only takes a blip in the weather and you need a check flight which eats into that limited budget.

I eventually gave up after about 7 years but was fortunate to take it up again twenty years later. Once again I started to run into the same problems but was in a position to start sharing my flying with other PPL's to expand my horizons. Then it became a problem trying to ensure that I had the three landings in 90 days. Now I'm in a group I fly a lot more and am enjoying it much more too. Now I just dread the day when anno dominae dictates that I stop, or I just run out of money.

For me, vanHorck's fear of making mistakes in our crowded skies was also a factor back in the 70's and this fear has been greatly reduced with the increase in experience and the introduction of the GPS.

[gingernut]

Rises in the base rate:uhoh:

[Lister Noble]

:ok:
I fly around 35 hrs per year,if I had to hire it would cost around £4500-5000/year.
As a retired person I doubt I could justify these hours/costs in a hired plane, so would gradually reduce flying until I became out of currency,unsafe etc or just stopped flying.

Flying with my group it costs around £1500/year all in,which makes flying affordable whenever I wish to go.
Unless you are able to earn and spend a lots of money, I can't see how you can better group flying.
The other bonus is that there are a number of co-owners to discuss any problems etc and a sort of camaraderie within the members.
Lister:)

[IO540]

I've never thought about giving up so I can only speak of what others tell me, and the main thread there is lack of confidence. This is only to be expected, looking at the PPL syllabus.

Obviously there are many other factors, and we could all go and make a list.

I think the most interesting ones are those which are preventable.

Lack of money is hardly preventable, and there will always be loads of people that do a PPL but who haven't got the funding for subsequent flying.

Lack of support from one's family is likely not preventable - short of getting a divorce and getting a new girlfriend who likes flying (a very tall order IMHO!! and I am talking about the new GF, not about the divorce...).

Getting back to lack of confidence, this is preventable but is a very hard nut to crack within the present PPL syllabus and the present "airfield/school political" climate. I've done all I can for a lot of pilots by writing up detailed trip reports with tips etc, and I know from feedback these have helped hundreds of pilots. But what is really needed is mentoring and modernisation.

On the 2nd one, the syllabus will never change because any expansion would be unwelcome by most, especially the schools. So forget this one.

A suitable mentoring scheme would I am certain help a lot (I gather AOPA is looking at some sort of post-qualification scheme) but this is politically hard to get past the flight training industry because schools generally dislike ex students hanging around because they are seen as usurping the instructors' authority which "must" be total and unquestioned. I was pushed out pretty fast myself after I got the PPL and stopped renting and bought my plane, though I did get used for a couple of fly-outs, to ferry the pilots' wives ;) The actual pilots would always be in the LHS with an instructor in the RHS (in the school's planes, not mine) so that each leg of the "club flyout" was a fully chargeable training flight.

As for "messing around" with the school's existing or past customers, that is out of the question and would have to be done off the airfield. And the "post qualification" line is a tough one to stick to because let's say you meet up with 3 pilots, and one of them hasn't yet got his PPL. Do you tell him to leave the room? You would just have to hope he keeps his mouth shut. Tricky! Anyway I very much hope something changes on this because it would make a huge difference to dropout rates.

Money is not the biggest issue, in general.

The best thing for a new PPL is to buy a plane, or buy into a group. ASAP.

[10069]

The main reason i feel most people give up is because most flying clubs wont let you take there planes away for a day even if you plan to fly more than a couple of hours which leads to many people (or me at least) getting bored of flying the same hour from the same airport which can get quite expensive:bored: as it is at the moment im caught in the middle wanting to fly more yet im unable to buy a share in a group or even have enough cash to take a club aircraft away for the day:ooh: but im only a student so hopefully with time ill earn more and be able to fly more as well:}
JACK

[BackPacker]

The main reason i feel most people give up is because most flying clubs wont let you take there planes away for a day even if you plan to fly more than a couple of hours

I've seen that claim being made here before but I wonder how real that is. My club has no problems with people taking planes for a full day or even couple of days, as long as they fly a rather reasonable 3.5 hours on weekend days and 2.5 hours on weekdays.

And if you're known at the club, fly reasonably often and don't make a habit of pushing these limits, I have found that the numbers above are negotiable anyway.

[Pace]

Jack

It might be worth talking to your club and seeing if there are quieter times in the week where you can take the aircraft off.

The second option is to get together with another pilot/s so that you can cost share and leg share. This allows you to go further afield rather than boring yourself by doing the same route around the local area in the time you can afford.

Talk to private owners as they might like some hours taking up and then you dont get such a problem with taking the aircraft away for a day.
Your main problem here might be their reluctance to take on a very low time PPL re insurance and experience levels.

The other way you may consider is buying a share in a VLA in a fairly large group. The share might not cost a lot and especially wth those aircraft the fuel is low in cost as should be the hourly rates.

Otherwise if your situation is not good at present keep your PPL going by flting when you can in quality flights and keeping in mind your goal that OK you may not fly many hours this year but next year who knows.

This might sound stupid but if you have a reasonable computer run flight sim.
It can be fun and keep up your currency although only a game.
I was well into that a few years ago and used to duplicate a flight I was intending to do on the sim first. when I came to the flight itself I had practiced the route and was already familiar with the approaches. With some of the detailed scenery it was amazing how simular the two experiences were although the handling and realism of the air and interaction was lacking.

Pace

[rauxaman]

I tend to be "cyclical" in my interests but flying has always been in there since first soloing in 1975... must have "given up" (left it all alone) 4 or 5 times.

I think I'm about to "give up" again soon unless I can actually find something to fly... I'm currently thinking of buying a sailing boat as it'll be more aaccessible.

Economics have never really been the problem (within the usual hobby budget), just my enthusiasm and the availability of suitable aeroplanes... both seem rather thin on the ground at the moment but maybe in a couple of years time I'll be selling the boat....

[bjornhall]

Think the most important aspects have already been mentioned... I think money is more important that has been acknowledged, for a simple reason: If flying had not cost what for most people is a great deal of money, the other reasons mentioned would net be enough to stop flying.

Another thing is that flying is probably a good deal different from what most people would have thought before they started their training. I think many find it is a lot more work, a lot more effort in preparation, a lot less flexible than people generally believe. A PPL probably does not give quite the freedom they might have expected.

I don't think any of this is a problem though. If a lot of people get their license, fly for a couple years and then stop; so what? If they are happy with that, so much the better for them! :)

[IO540]

My club has no problems with people taking planes for a full day or even couple of days, as long as they fly a rather reasonable 3.5 hours on weekend days and 2.5 hours on weekdays.That is a LOT of flying, for most PPLs. Let's face it, most training/rental types cannot even fly for 3.5 hours (with any safety margin taking into account the crude fuel management practices) so if you were to meet this requirement you would be doing two flights per day - a gruelling regime for most people.

The school I used to rent from had a rule like that; about 3hrs billed per day. One customer did actually do that - took the plane for a 2 week flying holiday once a year, clocking up loads of hours. But the typical PPL renter would like to fly to say France or whatever, say 1.5hrs, do 2 nights there (so they have a full clear day) and fly back. The takeaway rules make that expensive - he will get a 6hr bill i.e. some £600.

Another thing is that flying is probably a good deal different from what most people would have thought before they started their training. I think many find it is a lot more work, a lot more effort in preparation, a lot less flexible than people generally believe. A PPL probably does not give quite the freedom they might have expected.I agree, and this could be addressed with post-PPL mentoring. The PPL gives you the privilege to do it legally. To get use out of the piece of paper, you need to learn a lot of small operational details, but the school doesn't teach that.

Take just one little example: flight planning. There is a huge difference between doing it using the circular slide rule, to be flown with a stopwatch on dead reckoning, etc, and doing it on a laptop with say Navbox, to be flown with a GPS.

Of course money does matter (to most) but what really matters is the ratio of enjoyment/utility/whatever-you-like-about-it, and the hassle.

Years ago, I gave up water-skiing because it was a 1hr and very unpleasant drive (the Worthing/Arundel A27 route) through heavy weekend traffic, to be followed by mostly hanging around the lake waiting for my turn behind a boat.

Same with flying. If one can organise the stuff so as to minimise the hassle, one is a lot more likely to carry on.

[ChampChump]

Whilst not wanting to disagree with much of what's already been said, I think a lot depends on the manner in which the pilot evolves.

For those who start in what may be the typical school nowadays, the thoughts in previous posts seem pertinent.

My experience is that for those who grew up with (take your pick) gliding, microlights, non-radio aircraft, non-radio environments, relaxed air-ground radio airfields, farm strips and especially in the company of those who did/do haunt those elements, there is every reason to fly and continue flying. There is community on tap, which answers the mentoring question. What all those elements can provide is fun. Of course other situations can do this too, but it seems to me that there are many vanilla PPLs who have had little or no contact with these aspects of recreational flying and may be missing out on what would keep them flying when the challenge of getting the licence has been achieved and the gloss has dulled a bit.

Some people like a challenge and afterwards move onto something else. Nothing wrong with that, although it seems a waste. A few drift in and drift out, never finding that one thing that leads to the addiction many of us suffer (happily). A few may think that flying will be as useful as driving and discover otherwise. We can't answer that one: it isn't as useful, full stop. My unscientifically substantiated opinion is that the majority who drop out don't intend to do so but eventually realise they've flown very little, can't justify the rental/renewals/hangarage/share of aircraft/aeroplane ownership and cut their losses. Some could be salvaged by being introduced to the LAA/BMAA/BGA world; some are already in it and still drop out.

It's not my most eloquently worded opinion, but if you get the drift, I've communicated.

[Oldpilot55]

I don't smoke but if I did it would cost me £12 a day. That's when the weather is good or bad. I would like to smoke every day regardless. So it costs me £5k a year. It costs the taxpayers a lot more to fix my 60 years of smoking, ha , ha.

[rusty sparrow]

So I gave up - especially as a series of redundancies from a collapsing UK manufacturing industry cut my income. But I continued to look up at aircraft flying overhead for the next few years.

Now I can afford it, I revalidated my licence and now fly a taildragger from a grass strip - it's been (and still is!) challenging but great fun - and costs a fraction of spam can hire. The taildragger rating also allows me to fly much cheaper aircraft.

[IO540]

I think that no matter how one looks at this, the majority will always give up fast no matter what you do - it's the nature of the customer intake and of the overall situation.

But if one could reduce say the 2-year point attrition rate (the license/medical renewal point is where the first "big decision" is made) from whatever it is, say 90%, to 80%, which doesn't seem a hard target, that would double the # of people flying, which is a massive increase which would completely transform the finances of the GA scene.

Especially as, I strongly suspect, a disproportionate % of those who give up are in fact people who can well afford it. Or put it another way, a disproportionate % of those who remain are people who can barely afford it. I feel this is the case because what drives people towards some activity is the total return on it (versus the hassle), and those with more dosh have more options on where to spend it.

Today's lifestyle - especially for the "younger executive type" - is usually quite strategically planned, and with most worthwhile activities costing significant money or time, they will spend their money and their time where they get the most fun.

Who wouldn't want to double the # of people flying? I am sure GA airfields would like it. Schools probably wouldn't unless these pilots remained in the hire scene, which is highly unlikely. But if the airfield the school is based on is decrepit, with runways covered in weeks and stones... ??

[dont overfil]

I see part of problem is the demise of the real club with several enthusiastic "organisers" on hand to sell the ideas of flyouts or even just spur of the moment fun execises to keep members on their toes. I was once a member of such a club and the atmosphere was infectious.
First and foremost the owner was a born salesman!
DO.

[DBisDogOne]

Agree with the above about getting a share instead of the hassle and expense of hiring. That's what I'd like to do, unfortunately, it's finding a suitable share (pref. permit on grass strip) reasonably locally that is often a problem! I'm in this situation now and long to able to stop renting and start flying more for similar money - guess I'll have to be patient.

[bjornhall]

Regarding the customer service and attitude of rental and training establishment: While in training, I often felt that as a PPL student or a "sunday pilot" you're at the very rock bottom of the aviation food chain, just beneath the slime you find at the bottom of a spam can fuel tank... It is unfortunate, but it would be a shame to let that influence any decision to keep flying or not! You can still fly in such an environment, and it is probably easier to learn to adapt to it than to try and change it; at least if it is the flying you're interested in!

Regarding the "what to do" question: There is an awful lot one can do even in a 'mundane' rental PA28 or C172, but it might not be obvious what it is! It might take a bit of effort and imagination to find out how to improve on one's own, especially if one is not in a creative environment such as dont overfil describes. For instance, a place like See How It Flies (http://www.av8n.com/how/#contents) is filled to the brim with interesting excercises that one might not have done during basic training; particularly the latter chapters. Those will certainly keep me busy for a good while, when time or other circumstances dictate nothing more than a brief local hop.

I really can't imagine how one could run out of interesting things to do; I could easily give a list of things that would last for several hundred hours of gradually more challenging and satisfying flying, even while remaining in a C172 within a couple hours distance from home...

How to keep improving as a pilot, or the lack of such improvement, is probably a big point in whether or not it is interesting enough to continue. If all one does is local bimbling and the occasional next airfield land-away, not because one enjoys that but because one can't think of anything else to do, or if one isn't even interested in improving, then it is unsurprising if one quits pretty soon...

[vanHorck]

flying schools....

There are a lot of comments about them. I think from knowing a few the main reason for their lousy facilities and tight way of doing business, that they hardly make money.

Yes it s true they could improve on their attitude, but i guess a lot of them have been worn down by having to do everything from a massive load of admin to serving the coffee and some flying in between.

Even the larger schools where some people go for their MEP/IR/CPL seem to suffer from the same: No money for a coat of paint, carpets from 10 years ago, a kitchenette which reminds us of the seventies, and a stack of pilot and flyer mags. Sad realy.....

I dont have the answer. Starting a school in a pleasantly maintained building with a fleet of new new aircraft, offices which are vacuumed twice a week and a real office manager to keep control on things, a decent stack of fresh maps and checklists, working headsets, a communal area which is inviting for pilots to chat together, a briefing room with orderly and modern facilities.... I gues that doesn t work... Sad....

[stickandrudderman]

A loved one that was willing to come along and share the experience would be of tremendous value!!
I think IO540 makes some excellent points with regard to mentoring.
I'd like to see more airfields offering some reason to go there other than the proverbial £200 bacon sandwich. Some kind of organised event like a local treasure hunt, tour of somewhere intresting, go-karting etc.
I believe there's a rally driving school at Turweston but I've never seen it mentioned in any aviation magazine......
If I owned Turweston I'd be doing a deal with that school in order to try and drum up business for both parties.
Many have mentioned the "club" atmosphere, but perhaps here on prune it would be possible to create a National club. The more experienced amongst you who are willing could offer to attend "club" meetings at a central airfield and perhaps give a little talk on your personal views of how to improve the post PPL flying experience.
The regular contributors on here, IO540, Bose-X, Mike Cross, Fuji abound and others are the ones who obviously have quite a lot to say!
I've posted a story on here about mountain flying, and one of the main reasons for doing it was that I hoped it might motivate those who are struggling to keep flying and seek out new challenges.
Money may be a factor, but I think stimulation at destination is a bigger one.

[echobeach]

I just cannot imagine giving up flying. There have certainly been times of frustration. One always has to consider that the financial side will be a determining factor at some level for everyone in what they can afford in their flying.

There have been a few moments in my brief 4 years of flying were I can see that some would have given up, as the effort is simply too great. Immediately post PPL I remember turning up on many occasions, weather perfect, planning to head off into the blue, to find my craft given to someone else as not enough planes available. I understand this may be a priority for the club but I soon left to fly elsewhere. The more this sort of thing happens, the greater your drive has to be to keep going.

I find apart from the sheer enjoyment of flying, the greatest challenge is to try and continually improve my flying. The more I do, the further I find there is to go, and it is a never ending task. Each rating I have done I have found techniques and confidence improve.

My aim is to continue to fly faster and more complex craft but there is a point at which budget and time means that you have to settle for your level, and I think the post from Pace is all too true. I would like to fly the Citation but I am really very happy in the Arrow.

I found that joining a club, flying with friends, improving flying with ratings and moving to more complex craft has meant that the enthusiasm is now more than the first day I went solo.

At the end of the day and with all its potential frustrations I think that there is nothing that comes close to the challenges and enjoyment of private flying. What else allows you to challenge yourself taking a plane from North London to Le Touquet in 1 hour and then sit in the sun on a Saturday morning, in a different country drinking coffee. This is my favorite local bimble.

For me all the frustrations mentioned in this thread have been there at times, but once the wheels leave the ground it all goes away. There is nothing like it.

[Rod1]

Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way round. Perhaps we should look at who continues to fly. The LAA has a very large (by UK standards) membership, and the pilot element is relatively static, very low churn. Low cost, low hassle, fun flying which has no practical use, but lots of camaraderie and enjoyment.

When flying is allowed from unlicensed strips by enthusiast instructors perhaps the average PPL will find it easy transition. Most of the new PPL’s I come into contact with have no clue about this side of aviation because almost all LAA/BMAA style flying has abandoned the licensed airfields.

Rod1

[Whirlybird]

Sometimes people's lives just move on...in a year, two years, ten years. And what on earth is wrong with that?

[J.A.F.O.]

Well said, Whirly - as always.

My story is very like Wycombe's up at the top. Competing demands for resources - time and money, have meant that flying has taken a back seat, for a while.

[IO540]

A good debate, with excellent contributions :ok:

A few things worth mentioning:

As with everything in life, one must keep one's targets achievable. No good wanting a TBM850 if you cannot afford one. AND no good buying a TBM850 even if you can afford one unless you have the mission profile to suit (loads of long range airways flying from A to B) and have the mental endurance required for the keeping of something half way to a 737 in complexity and maintenance issues. One very clever man I know chucked in flying permanently, having climbed all the way to an ATPL and a twin turboprop, saying he got sick of running an airline.

So, choose a plane (or a share in one) which is clearly affordable without being stretched.

[172driver]

Other than the various reasons already stated (the dreaded money-time conundrum...), which are valid anywhere I think there's a couple of more UK-specific issues.

One is the generally not very welcoming (to put it charitably) atmosphere at many GA fields. Typically some grumpy old(ish) men hanging about and perhaps some soggy sandwiches served up in a filthy Portacabin. Contrast that to quite a few GA fields on the continent - to say nothing of the US - where you have a nice restaurant, friendly staff and a clean briefing room with internet access.

The second may well be the airspace structure in the UK and the anal attitude towards CAS transits. These are a non-event everywhere else I've flown, but akin to an audience with the Pope in the UK.

I guess most people who have the money and the desire to fly airplanes are rather successful in their 'normal' lives and don't like to be treated like stupid children and having to slum it on the creature comfort side.

[IO540]

I guess most people who have the money and the desire to fly airplanes are rather successful in their 'normal' lives and don't like to be treated like stupid children and having to slum it on the creature comfort side.That's very true, but if you suggest that somebody should market flight training services to the business/professional sector (makes perfect sense IMHO) you will normally get a hostile reception :)

I recall reading some "letters" in Flight Training News, written by instructors, who were viciously scathing of students turning up in a BMW Z4 (or whatever) with a "blonde bird" and who were (I assume) expecting some kind of high standard from their instructor and the business he was working at. This attitude is very widespread among instructors - these kinds of customers are not fools and don't suffers fools, and need to be handled differently.

I think the biggest challenge GA faces is that the population is no longer in the 1960s/70s driving Vauxhall Vivas and Hillman Hunters and Mk1 Cortinas. Expectations have improved dramatically since those days when people just accepted all kinds of crap and were grateful. Yet GA is still for the most part stuck in the goode olde 1960s.

Doing something about the social scene would be a good start. Inevitably though this would involve welcoming back some pilots who are no longer potential customers for the business (the "flying club") and this is a bit of an attitude challenge for most of these businesses. One cannot build a social scene purely around those who are likely to spend more money at the school - the natural post-PPL attrition rate means there are too few people to draw on.

Towards the end of my UK training I used to hang out at one establishment (long gone now) where the CFI knew about these issues and went about providing facilities for post-PPL pilots. Bar, flight planning, weather, etc. But it never happened. Non customers got excluded fast, and after that there was almost nobody left.

[possel]

I agree with most of the sentiments above - After 12 years and 320 hours, I have just given up (in July this year) for a number of reasons:

The cost - If you cannot afford to spend enough money on your hobby, then it ceases to satisfy as your skills decline. I reckon "enough" for me was about £2000 pa. Plus the cost of fuel is silly and the consumption makes me feel guilty even if I can afford it.

The time - you need to have access to an aircraft without a ninety minute drive to the airfield, or else you can spend most of Saturday doing 55 minutes airborne.

Access to aircraft - I used to own a share (with a great set of guys) and had ready access to the strip a mile away, so could fly for 20 mins in an evening. I now live in central London and have a long journey to fly. I have also been hiring a club aircraft which has the limitations above - and keeping current to club standards can be quite restrictive.

Frustration - the constraints and costs placed on us are continually increasing such as JAR FCL, airspace constraints, Mode S - if you are in any way discouraged by the above three, these add to it!

NB I learned (in 1995/96) at a great school (RFC Bourn) who treated me just right and trained me very well with a good atmosphere, so no complaints there.

[IO540]

I think one good solution to the cost issue would be for a bunch of fresh PPLs to get together and start a syndicate.

Most, myself included, who look for shares just look for existing ones. I don't think it occurs to most people that they could start a fresh one.

Unfortunately the school discourages this thinking because they want people to keep self fly hiring - resulting in the highest ever marginal flying cost. The marginal cost of flying 1hr in my newish TB20 is less than the cost of doing it in a rented C152! I got absolutely NO help from any of the instructors when I was asking about different planes.

And then the people you got to know on the course disperse and you never see most of them again. Of those 20 or so people I got to know during training, only one hung around in any way afterwards.

So the time to set up a syndicate is as soon as possible.

The typical GA wreck is worth only £25k which is almost nothing for a group of 10 people who presumably had the budget to get a PPL for about £10k each. And for 2x that you could get something pretty good in today's market; a very well equipped Archer for example. One should get the whole airways kit for that money (though not any great capability like FL200).

[BackPacker]

In the Netherlands, based at Lelystad, we have a group called the "Diamond Flyers". It's a group, but it's not limited to one plane. Basically, when they have enough new prospective members, they buy an additional Diamond. I think they're up to five or six now.

Regardless of what you think about the DA-40 TDI in general, it is a new plane with a modern instrument panel and relatively frugal fuel consumption - more appealing than a 1960 Piper or Cessna that hasn't been updated in between.. The way the group is run also makes it easy for new members to join and for old members to leave. And since it's not for profit, it's rather cheap too.

Oh, and aircraft availability is even better than in a one-plane group of course.

[bjornhall]

Setting up a syndicate leads to lower marginal hour costs, but the actual cost per annum is still pretty high, isn't it? For those who only fly maybe 20 - 30 hours per year, is it really an option?

I think a well functioning self-hire facility, be it a commercial operation or a member-owned flying club, is probably the most hassle free and convenient way to fly... It can be done! Ours work really well; we're about 200 more or less active members sharing 6 aircraft, 3 of which are less than 10 years old and only 1 of which is more than 20 years; far from "the typical GA wreck". Most are well equipped and in good condition; four of the six have panel mount GPS (one has two), autopilots and are IFR capable. Availability is quite ok, probably because quite a few members don't fly very much. Facilities at the airfield are fine. No need for club members to worry about things like maintenance, economy, engine funds etc unless they want to. Marginal hour cost and yearly membership fee pretty high by our standards (still seems low by UK standards), but investment and economical risk is very low (€700 interest free membership loan).

If it can be done here, it should be possible elsewhere. I wouldn't want to do it any other way until I have a good bit more experience and know what it is I enjoy most.

[muffin]

After 30 years flying encompassing the whole spectrum of SFH, outright ownership and several different shares, I have settled down to a 1/3 share in a brand new LAA type which does 100 kts on mogas, lives one mile away and has a marginal operating cost that is so cheap I can ignore it. I have not flown in a club environment for many years now and have no particular wish to. I do however manage to fly often albeit usually a 20 minute bimble on the way home from work on the rare sunny days. The capital cost was quite high but at least having got the aircraft I do not even have to think about the cost of using it. This setup works perfectly for me.

At the other extreme, I discovered rotary flight a few years ago and wound up by buying a helicopter. That is another story cost wise.............

[Mad Girl]

I think one good solution to the cost issue would be for a bunch of fresh PPLs to get together and start a syndicate.

Most, myself included, who look for shares just look for existing ones. I don't think it occurs to most people that they could start a fresh one.

I got absolutely NO help from any of the instructors when I was asking about different planes.

The typical GA wreck is worth only £25k which is almost nothing for a group of 10 people who presumably had the budget to get a PPL for about £10k each. And for 2x that you could get something pretty good in today's market; a very well equipped Archer for example. One should get the whole airways kit for that money (though not any great capability like FL200).


IO - You always assume that people have learned to fly to "go places" - That's not always the case.. ;)

I tried to get a group together to buy a 2 seat, all metal (park outside), PT CofA, semi aerobatic :), aeroplane which would be cheap to run for pottering about (115hp engine).. had some NAV aids, so I believe could do partial panel training for the IMC on it, but you could also do a bit more with it..AOPA aero's certificate. Renewals and further training could be done on it, and all you'd need to do is hire the instructor - making improving & maintaining your skills cheaper.

What's more...when I showed the details to my instructor he agreed that it was probably the most sensible aeroplane I'd looked at (I'd been thinking about it for about a year before I qualified)

It was cheap enough that I could just about buy it myself, but the estimated fixed costs would have needed sharing if I wanted to fly MORE than I do at the moment by hiring.

A group of 5 would have been £3.5 to £4k capital, about £100-110 pm and between £55 & £65 ph wet depending how much surplus funds we wanted to build as a group for mode S, resprays and avionics upgrades etc without having cash calls.....

ABSOLUTELY NO RESPONSE....

Certainly at my old school there seem to be 2 camps of people..... Those that have IFR tourers or those that have cheap to fly bimblers.. There's nothing in between which may give you more scope to play.... :{

Needless to say.... I'm still renting.

[IO540]

MG - my only assumption about people wanting to go places was in the type I mentioned (Archer). Exactly the same idea would apply to an aerobatic type.

The Diamond DA40 offers a lower operating cost but the capital cost makes it that much harder to set up a group.

The trick, as you found, is getting the crowd together. And then getting them to put money where their mouth is.

The other challenge, resulting from airfield/school politics, is that it is hard to do this within the confines of a flying school/club. In general, the people doing this need to get away from that whole cosy scene (where they ask their instructor whether the weather is OK to fly, etc) before they can make that move. They will be treated as "traitors" afterwards :) and most know it.

[172driver]

If it can be done here, it should be possible elsewhere

Which is where ??? Sounds like a good setup :ok:

[Nibbler]

I was interested Mad Girl! :ok: - right up to the point I picked up a calculator and realised owning a share was not about saving money but a way of flying without dealing with the pitfalls of renting.

But back to topic...

People give up and whilst it may be a shame, I'm so very glad they do! ;). If everyone kept at it I'd never be able to hire an aircraft, have to forever circle the field waiting to land, deal with an overloaded ATC ALL the time (happy days) and get much less of a FIS than we enjoy just now :suspect:. Plus the prospects of the ever increasing traffic in the available airspace is a frightening prospect. :p

Well done Mr, Miss or Mrs PPL you achieved it, not many do! Now, I know a really nice bloke who teaches scuba diving.... :):):)

[bjornhall]

Which is where ??? Sounds like a good setup http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


That would be Göteborg, Sweden! :) So a tad far-ish for most PPruNers I'm afraid (but do stop by if you're in the area!).

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

I’d tend to agree with most of the points raised above. There will always be the ‘box tickers’ who want to achieve particular challenges, then move on to the next one. Good on ‘em, they help to play for the infrastructure that the rest of us use.


There is also the boredom argument, in that time between completing the PPL and finding out what sort of flying you enjoy. The problem is that you need to build the experience to be confident to do the more interesting things like touring or aeros or strip flying. As mentioned in posts above, there are interesting things to do while accumulating the experience, if only exploiting the Pilot / Flyer / Today’s Pilot freebie landings.


Beyond the technical challenge, probably the best thing about flying is the social side. Be that flying with other group members, trips with other members of an enlightened flying club, the local LAA Strut or the folks at the farm strip. I suspect many folk who give up spend their last few flying hours boring holes in the sky alone, wondering why they are doing it.


I’m sad to hear that the lack of welcome offered to nicnak Jnr is still around. I encountered the same thing in 1991. Several training organisations lost out on two lots of PPL training income, as my GF at the time was going to learn as well. After finding one eccentric outfit (Air South in the era of John & Jenny Pothecary), I happily completed the PPL and a bit towards the IMC before being lured in to the PFA / farm strip flying scene.


One of the things that will keep people flying is the involvement of partners, family members or friends. I’ve been lucky enough to find a partner who is interested to the point of having her own aeroplane. OK, meeting through aviation probably helped. The question we get asked at fly-ins is ‘Why do you bring two aeroplanes?’


Safe Flying,
Richard W.

[patfitz]

I am interested in doing the ppl. What puts me off doing it in the uk is the cancelation of lessons due to weather. I then intended on going to florida but cant get the 3-6 weeks to go. I was then thinking of going to Spain or the Czeck republic for a week at a time and getting around 15 hours in to get a start (while also gettin the odd lesson in the uk). I dont think ill save any money just that ill be able to get almost guarenteed flying time. In the last week I have rang two schools in Ireland and both of them said there had been no flights for most of the last week due to wind and if I wanted to do a lesson I would have to book 3 weeks in advane.

After reading a lot of the other threads I am now having 2nd thoughts about getting the ppl. I dont want to fly for the sake of it, I want to fly to go places. Initially I thought Ill get the ppl and then put up a few hours in a rented aircraft and then do the IMC.

I have no interest in flying circuits or flying for the sake of tring to keep current. I want to be able to think on friday week im going where,and think occasionally I will have to cancel due to weather but from what I am led to believe at the moment, if I want to go further away than 250 miles there is more than a 50% chance that I will have to cancel. I read one blog of a guy that booked 90 flying lessons in the uk during October-December and only got 3 due to weather and instructors canceling. That works out at 1 in every 30 attempts. When working in the uk When working in the uk I would not have the time for cancelled lessons.

Another guy passed the ppl and then had the dilema that it was cheaper to rent a 450kg ultralight just to build up the hours for his CPL eventually but to keep his ppl current he would have to rent something else occasionally.

Once a month I want to be able to say on friday week I am flying from somewhere around londan to ireland (home) (or mybe a trip further away to europe or somewhere) and back on monday morning in , someting that will take 2 people, cruise at 130-140 mph and be able to legally take enough fuel for trip and not cost too much I some of the new aircraft like the zodiacs cost about 70k (well equiped) and burn about 20 litres an hour and even if i had to purchase outright myself it wouldnt be too expensive to run if other people would take shares to use it the other 3 weekends a month.

I would not mind if i thought ocasionally I will have cancel the trip or to stay another day because of the weather/wind. What i now think is about 50% of the time i will have to canel or stay an extra day or 3 and that is no good to me.

Im sure if i had loads of money and all sorts of ratings and a nice expensive aircraft I could have a 99.9% chance of flying on any given day. Unfortunately i will never be in that position. I just want it as a hobby and want it to give me a bit more freedom than going commercial but as already mentioed here if its too expensive there is no point in doing it.

[englishal]

I reckon people give up because:

Hassle factor
If you rent from a club you get loads of hassle.

Examples that have happened to me include: You book a 2 hr slot and the aeroplane comes back late and needs to be refueled. The transponder has been removed and put into another aeroplane as they are using it for instruction. The plane you booked has got tits so you're shoved in a grotty replacement. The VOR has stopped working. You need to fly 3 hrs per day. etc....

Cost
For the privilege of the above you are charged £130+ per hour plus a £30 landing fee

Boredom
During your 2 hr slot you are limited to certain airfields. So you fly into the same one again for that expensive burger. And you know the route well so you are relaxed, but it does get boring. You cannot train for further ratings due to the ALL or NOTHING approach of UK flight training. You thought about starting on the IR but a) you have to work for a living and b) suddenly the costs jump by £50 per hour for the instructor to train you. The result is you don't bother.

The only way to address the first two points are to get your own share. I bought a share and it is the best thing ever - my aeroplane is not particularly expensive to buy / own / operate, and there is NO hassle factor. I just turn up, wheel it out of the hangar and off I go...stopping over night if I want. Costs are minimal and fuel burn is only about 31 litres per hour.

For the last one, well having a share helps, with not being limited to daily minimums. I also head off to the USA several times a year for a completely different type of flying. Whereas in the UK my flying is mostly SE VFR due to aeroplane and equipment limitations, last night I had a great IFR flight in California in a DA42 with 100hrs on the clock and all the bells and whistles - (Nexrad, XM, traffic etc...) at night, 1000'OC with frontal weather, hand flying in moderate turbulence, rain so hard it was like a freight train hammering on the cockpit and it was FUN and cost me no more than a crappy PA28 in the UK.

There is a place in California which now rents brand new DA40's (Avgas) with G1000 / traffic / XM etc (possibly with Synthetic Vision - amazing piece of kit) for $99 per hour DRY. With careful flying and lots of airports the fuel can be kept to under $40 per hour - so for $140 per hour you get a mean machine with all the mod cons and get to see some interesting places. Anyone who is bored of flying in the UK should really consider a flying holiday in the USA.

[Squeegee Longtail]

The reasons people stop flying is surely as varied as the reasons people start.

Personally, I wanted to fly since as young as I can remember (3 I think). I used to read all the books on the RAF and wartime pilots as a kid. Later I would read Richard Bach, St Exupery books etc. I had a dream, as you could say.
Sadly medical reasons stopped me from RAF flying duties, and even a commercial career in flying.
The dream was still there as soon as I could afford (just) to take my PPL though. I passed in 1988 and had 12 great years spending everything I had (after living expenses) on flying, gaining ratings and flying wherever I was based in the world. I had a 1/3 share in a beautiful Stampe, and rented complex tourers. I could not contemplate life without flying.

Suddenly, at a medical renewal, I learned that my condition (unchanged since birth) would no longer be allowed for a CAA certificate. So overnight, I stopped.
I was so bitter and twisted for a while towards the CAA, but eventually just moved on with life.

Nearly 9 years on and I need to fly again. The JAA medical limitations still prevent me from gaining their "honoured" standard (on a ridiculous technicality). Thank goodness the FAA use common sense. I am nearly through an FAA IR course. (Still want a Stampe again though).

If it's in your blood, you'll always look up to the sky. You can walk away, but you'll be back.

[RotaryPilotUK]

schools generally dislike ex students hanging around because they are seen as usurping the instructors' authority which "must" be total and unquestioned. I was pushed out pretty fast myself after I got the PPL and stopped renting and bought my plane ... As for "messing around" with the school's existing or past customers, that is out of the question and would have to be done off the airfield. And the "post qualification" line is a tough one to stick to because let's say you meet up with 3 pilots, and one of them hasn't yet got his PPL. Do you tell him to leave the room? You would just have to hope he keeps his mouth shut. Tricky!

Is this just a fixed-wing phenomenon?

From my (admittedly limited) experience of helicopter flight schools, they all positively encourage students to mix with and learn from current PPLs. And once you have the license in your hand, far from pushing you out they do all they can to keep you coming back and renting aircraft.

There does seem to be a noticeable difference in personality type between fixed wing instructors and helicopter instructors.

[thomsonpop]

My solution was to take up competition aerobatics as soon as I passed my PPL.

Like most of us, from a very young age I had been fascinated by aeroplanes and I had always wanted to learn to fly. I thoroughly enjoyed my PPL training, largely due to the satisfaction and interested to be gained from learning something new.

However, the thought of spending the rest of my days flying a PA28 from my local airfield to another in a straight line just because I could chilled me to my core. Gliding only offered the chance to stand around on a cold airfield all day listening to some old boys banging on about their flying experiences, with very little actual flying being possible even on a good day.

Aerobatics provides me with constant exhilaration every time I fly, constant learning of new and challenging skills over and above just air experience, the opportunity to fly interesting, high performance aircraft and friendship with a vibrant and likeminded crowd of fellow competitors whom I consider to be great friends.

I am fairly unusual in the aerobatic world in that I don't own a share, but rent something suitable - this allows me to fly as and when funds allow without a large financial outlay. Even so, I don't consider aerobatics to be excessively expensive. I fly about 30 hours per year in 30 minute bursts.

Cross country flying is a necessary part of getting to the contests, but I consider it to be just that, a necessity. If that constituted my main flying activity, I would have given up long ago.

CC

[Imperator1300]

I think we give up for many different reasons:


Lack of money;
Lack of time time;
Family (fed up with planning trips that don't happen);
Boredom (going around in circles 'locally');
Old and 'scabby' aircraft;
Frustration (mainly caused by weather, but also the admin of medical etc);
Lack of confidence;
Desire to do other things;

After 30 years of private flying I have experienced all of the above at one time or another. However, still flying (just) ;)

Imperator1300

[GroundBound]

Approaching 300 hours - the club is OK, the a/c are OK, the finances are OK, but my hours have dropped from 35/yr to about 12 this year.

It started over a year ago when I did some aerobatic training with some highly qualified people. I think, then I realised what a crap pilot I was. Also, on one occasion, by the time I had realised that the situation looked like a developing spin, the instructor had already initiated recovery.

In short - loss of confidence.

When I regained my licence a few years ago, I thought I would never "not enjoy" flying, but somehow the fun has gone out of it. As whirly said - time just moves on!

GB

[DavidHoul52]

Seems a shame! Perhaps you are being too hard on yourself? Did the course not include spin-recovery?

[GroundBound]

Indeed it did - recovery from incipent spin and recovery from unusual attititudes (e.g. falling out of a loop). The difference being one is prepared for the spin and the recovery. In this case I was (to my mind) slow in recognising the developing spin. This realisation knocked the stuffing out of my confidence - hence no desire to go back up there. :uhoh:

GB

[DavidHoul52]

Spin training not my favourite cup of tea either. My problem was instinctively recovering (by releasing back pressure) before letting the spin develop. Once you are in a spin there's no mistaking it - and you can recover quickly in most planes - providing of course, that you are at a decent height.

I find flying enjoyable enough without aerobatics. If you have 300 hours you must be a very experienced pilot. Standard stall recovery should be enough for any situation you find yourself in normal flying.

[pronane]

I fly around 35 hrs per year,if I had to hire it would cost around £4500-5000/year.
As a retired person I doubt I could justify these hours/costs in a hired plane, so would gradually reduce flying until I became out of currency,unsafe etc or just stopped flying.

Flying with my group it costs around £1500/year all in,which makes flying affordable whenever I wish to go.
Unless you are able to earn and spend a lots of money, I can't see how you can better group flying.
The other bonus is that there are a number of co-owners to discuss any problems etc and a sort of camaraderie within the members.
How often do you get to fly within the year? Do you get the chance to take it for the weekend for example?

patfitz, i read your post and I found myself thinking exactly the same as the paragraph re:flying home etc. I think people interested like myself (as its still only a thought of whether or not I will do the PPL) probably don't realise 2 years down the line whats required and the novelty factor is lost, due to being unable to do things that they wanted - thats only a guess as I haven't a clue, but I know that if I got the PPL and wasn't able to do some of the things you suggested I would just get fed up....

Reading this thread has made me wonder whether its worth the investment both financial and effort to get a PPL!!:(

[IO540]

Reading this thread has made me wonder whether its worth the investment both financial and effort to get a PPL!

Firstly, you need to be able to afford it. The mystical desire to take to the skies doesn't cut it in the real world. If you are financially struggling to do each lesson, then forget it. You need some 10 grand to get the PPL, then another 10 grand to do some serious flying, and after that you will have an idea of whether it is for you or not. It can be done on less, especially in the USA, but not that much less.

Next, why are you doing it? Do you want to do something specific e.g. aerobatics or long distance routing? If so, these are definite objectives which can be met. But most people who enter the PPL sausage machine don't seem to have such objectives; these are the ones who tend to give up early.

I learnt to go places and have never regretted all the hassle for one moment. But I would do it differently if I was doing it again.

[rans6andrew]

You don't need anywhere near 10 grand to get a licence, in the UK, you just need to aim a little different. I was going to say lower but that would not be correct. Microlight licences require from 25 hours tuition (some students do get through in the minimum time) at about 130 pounds an hour, in a modern, capable 3 axis machine. Add in books, ground school and some landing fees and you could be sorted for less than 4 grand. After this, basic aircraft can be bought from about 3 grand and running costs are not much more than fuel and insurance. 15 ltrs Mogas an hour in my thirsty 2 stroke! The machine is easy to fly and cheap to repair so I don't pay for any hull insurance (the expensive bit) and third party only comes to a couple of hundred pounds a year, that is less than some flying club memberships, I hear.

Much better to do a lot of cheap hours than struggle to reach the minimum hours in an expensive machine. I would not be flying 60 to 70 hours a year if I was paying club hire rates and sticking to club rules about return times.

[DavidHoul52]

Its a bit like having and bringing up children - much more frustrating and expensive than you ever thought. But ultimately extremely satisfying and you are never quite the same person again!

[IO540]

I am sure this one has been done to death earlier in this thread or in one of the many similar ones, but any long term residence in the self fly hire scene is the most likely death of one's flying career.

It results in the highest possible marginal cost, usually the most restrictive access for going away somewhere, usually (not always; there are significant exceptions in some places) get you flying the most decrepit old junk around which makes prospective passengers cringe, and you never quite know what somebody has done to it previously.

The best thing someone can do is commit as early as possible to a syndicate, or buy outright. And this must be true whether working in the certified scene, or in the microlight/etc (VFR-only) scene.

[pronane]

the thing is that is a lot different to what was posted by other members on a different thread - originally posted by myself.

I am intrigued as to hear more from rans6andrew!

[rans6andrew]

Hi Pronane, I am glad that someone has noticed my post.

Posts along those lines from others rarely get mention. The usual thing is for PPL's look down their noses at microlights and the homebuilt sector of flying. That is, until they find out that there is good flying beyond the spam can/GA school environment. At the moment there is a trickle of PPL holders seeing the light and taking up microlight flying. Ironically, many microlight aircraft can be built as group A machines and this clouds the line between them so that you don't realise what you are looking at. Much microlight activity takes place away from licenced airfields, even training, and most are happy to use mogas and so don't need to call in to the GA fields for fuel. You don't know they are out there.

I have a theory that everyone thinks that they need a much more capable aircraft than they really do. One only needs an aircraft as quick as the slowest aircraft in the group that one flies with. Microlights are so cheap to run that everyone takes their own on outings, most passenger seats are given to non pilots.

If you want to send me a private message, Pronane, I'll can send you my email or phone number.

Andrew.

[S-Works]

I learnt to fly in the RAF, when I left I did nothing for 15 years. My wife bought be a microlight lesson and I did the PPL(M) in 25hrs. I flew about 300hrs in ML and became more and more frustrated at the lack of capability. I got bored of the UK and wanted to do what being able to fly gives you the greatest gift - to be able to get off this Island under your own steam.

So I went and did a PPL(A) and flew the club spam cans and as IO correctly points out I quickly realised that sticking around a club environment would strangle the life out of my flying so joined a group and discovered even more versatility. Liked it so much that I did the IMC and night, then an IR and an Instructor rating, accompanied by a few thousand hours of touring around Europe and the list goes on Now I fly a multi engine turboprop but still fly privately for fun as well.

Although cost is a driver for most people, I think the biggest reason people give up is a lack of confidence which leads to a lack of understanding of the real utility of aviation.

[IO540]

The usual thing is for PPL's look down their noses at microlights and the homebuilt sector of flying. That is, until they find out that there is good flying beyond the spam can/GA school environment.I couldn't agree more, but the microlight/homebuilt scene is not the only "escape" from the generally crappy spamcan / school rental scene.

Just buying a decent plane and flying to places is a pretty damn good escape.

The microlight scene delivers an escape towards lower cost, which suits very many GA participants who are willing to do a pretty severe tradeoff between cost and mission capability.

But not everybody is strapped for cash, and the benefits of the microlight/homebuilt scene are for ever limited to VFR i.e. relatively fine weather, and (short of considerable hassle) flying within the UK only, which is likely to result in flying the same old burger runs.

[172driver]

OK, so this seems to veer a bit towards a certified vs. Microlight a/c thread. I do not doubt the capabilities of some of these Micro machines (been in a couple - as pax - that could fly loopings around the stuff I fly), but here's a question: suppose you go down the Micro route and do most of your flying in those. Do the hours count towards your PPL(A)? In other words, is this an either-or choice (other than just maintaining your PPL(A) by doing the requisite hours every other year, of course)?

[steveking]

I've kind of gone down this road. I passed a PPL 2 1/2 years ago then went onto 275 hours in an Ikarus c42, which none count toward the PPL hours. I then went onto an RV6 which I know have 125 hours on.

Strange but from my experience the IFR club aircraft do the local bacon butty runs and the VFR microlights tend to do all the touring around europe. Just what I see of course.

I think the clubs can sometimes be very reluctant to let there potential hirers move away especially to LAA / micro types. Ironically they can end up getting bored and give up anyway.

It was mentioned about mentoring after passing a PPL and I think that it is what happened to me without me realising it. I was lucky enough to fall into LAA/micro types and clocked loads of hours at the same time getting involved and looking after your own aircraft for me increased the interest.

[rans6andrew]

bose-x, your reply is exactly what I refered to in my previous.

When I got my nppl (m) it took me just 8 weeks to "get off this island" under my own steam. I took part in Wingspan 2003 when, one day in August, 98 microlights crossed the channel for a night in France, Abbeville to be precise. A fair mix of flexwings and 3 axis machines. That was when I saw the true spirit and comradeship of microlighting for the first time. It is not the burning through the sky at 140kts that is what flying is about, it is the loose formations at 60mph, the watching out for each other over the channel, camping and enjoying a few pints with a few like minded folk, mucking in and helping with the inevitable technical issues.

Just because the airspeeds are lower, and the duration is only 3 hours, don't think that you can't go places. If you view the flying AS the holiday, taking two days to get down to the Loire Valley doesn't matter. Blois is three stops from Brimpton. Brimpton - Headcorn - Abbeville (overnight) Abbeville - Chartres - Blois (Onzain). Onzain is a 400 m rough grass airfield next to a permanent campsite. Free landings, 8 Euros a day to camp, swim, shower etc. They have a bar, restaurant and shop on site and they make us welcome. This year my partner came with me and we were away for 7 days. The aircraft is a two seat microlight with a 2 stroke engine, 52 horsepower, 500cc pull start.

As one of my friends noted, if we just went to the airfield in the morning, pulled the aircraft from the hanger, turned the key and went to Blois in one hop we probably wouldn't bother. Too easy. Might as well go by commercial airline.

It is partly because the trip involves a certain amount of planning (make sure that the en-route airfields are open, with fuel), much care with selection of luggage and tools (weight is always tight), carry enough 2 stroke oil to get to the next known supply and being resourceful enough to get by. It is the challenge that makes it worthwhile.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,

To get back to the original purpose of the thread, namely to find out why people give up, here's an idea. Moderators please note.

Why not place a sticky on this thread headed, 'Tell us why are you giving up' Then Ppruners at least, who are giving up, will be able to tell us their reasons for hanging up their headsets before they depart.

Over time, this should give us at least some anecdotal information about why people pack in flying.

Broomstick.

[IO540]

from my experience the IFR club aircraft do the local bacon butty runs

That would be expected, due to the lack of access necessary for longer trips. That's why people who limit themselves to the club rental scene tend to give up flying pretty soon.

Whereas the VFR-only types are more affordable for outright ownership.

Mind you, it might also be worth looking at the demographics of the two pilot populations (the £100 burger one, and the touring one). I bet you the latter has a lot higher average age - they tend to hav emore time to play.

[S-Works]

Just because the airspeeds are lower, and the duration is only 3 hours, don't think that you can't go places.

I did not say that you could not go places just that the speed and time becomes restrictive. The places you quote for your big trip are lunch stops for me. My week touring trip this year saw us in Prague, Stockholm, Copenhagen with a few other places thrown in. The trip before that was al 3 of the Balearics retuning back through Portugal, Spain, France and the CI.

I was not belittling Micro-light flying, I still fly ML frequently, but if that was all that was left to me I would probably give up. I have done all the places that you can reasonably go in a ML and to be frank the idea of camping does not appeal to me.

I regularly cross swords on here with IO540 out of mischief but when it comes to realising the utility of faster machinery and the ability it gives us to see the world under our own steam he is bang on.

[daisy120]

Its a two pronged thing I believe. Firstly, over regulation and controlled airspace protocols do no favours for the nascient qualified pilot. Its threatening and any sniff at going beyond the comfort zone of "home Navs" is beyond the realm of acceptable difficulty. Given that most club a/c are only available for a few hours of the day unless guarantees are given for days away, this makes the whole deal fairly expensive. Regulatory costs and all the naff crap associated with the licence has just got beyond the realm of common sense. Instructors walk around looking like Easy Jet F\o's and the once warm embrace of the Aero Club is a rarity.
Secondly, expense, expense and expense. To use the ticket effectively, a pilot needs a share a/c or an outright ownership. No longer a realistic financial alternative unless you offset the machine towards a business. An annual on a 4 seat spam will be around 3 to 5 k GBP. Hangarage no less than 1800 and insurance, the same again almost. Avgas is at ballistic levels aside from the fact that the barrel is down. UK landing fees get ridiculous at fields that seem to deter GA but are the closest to the connurbations of need and the CPRE are out to kill aviation, period, driving up the fees and useage restrictions at the smaller fields even more.
To wit, PPL erosion is down to the poor AOPA, CAA management and lack of club mentoring that should otherwise support all fresh PPL's in their first 3 years of flying. "Soft mentoring" such as the French encourage is seen as anathema here...v sad. Hey, but microlighting...thats where its still good and healthy and needs as discussed previously, another thread!!:ooh:

[PlasticPilot]

I do my best to continue, but have to cope with a new hurdle... We're about to buy a house, and had to take a life-insurance to make the funding easier. The standard conditions do not cover me in case of accident in a light aircraft.

The only solution I have is to subscribe a separate insurance for the same amount, which is increasing the cost of my flying... again.

[Pace]

The only solution I have is to subscribe a separate insurance for the same amount, which is increasing the cost of my flying... again.

PlasticPilot.

When I first started driving I could only afford third party insurance. I took the risk and realised that the insurance I had saved over a few years by having third party rather than comprehensive would have paid for two complete cars.

ie you cannot insure against everything in life and anyway if you crashed a light aircraft you wouldnt be around to worry about your house anyway!

I hope you get my message

Pace :)

[IO540]

I took the risk and realised that the insurance I had saved over a few years by having third party rather than comprehensive would have paid for two complete cars.

That will always be the case, in the long run, otherwise insurance companies would not be making money :) I think most large fleets are insured 3rd party only, because fully comp would be an obvious waste of money.

Incidentally, life insurance started before one started flying remains valid afterwards. The important thing is that at the time you took it out, you were not flying, nor planning to be.

[172driver]

The only solution I have is to subscribe a separate insurance for the same amount, which is increasing the cost of my flying... again.


PlasticPilot, shop around. Not every insurer will agree to accept you, but I was in a similar situation some years back (ok, different times, but still...) and quite easily found one who was happy to insure me. The rate, I hasten to add, was (and is) very competitive. All that was needed was to fill in an 'aviation questionnaire'.

[S-Works]

I am insured with Legal and General for a tidy sum. Fly 400 pus hours a year and pay no premium increase for flying.

[Captain Smithy]

Many interesting points of view here. It is a shame that many people get bored with aviation and then give it up.

I suppose it's like most other things in life, keep pushing boundaries and try something new. A lot of pilots seem to get stuck in the "£100 burger & cuppa run" rut which inevitably after the umpteenth time leads to much boredom. But why not try something new?

Cost is a major barrier to most of us - me included! - but trying new places & making a trip out of it, say a weekend away, can probably help make the difference. Of course the weather has to be good, there again an IR can make the difference there! ;)

I have always fancied once I'm qualified taking a weekend trip to the Western Isles - a couple of folks from the club did that last year and it looked a good trip. Either that or taking a week off work and take a trip up to the far North of Scotland.

There's lots of other things to do - air rallies, aerobatics, instructing etc. etc. etc. I suppose you have to look for what you want out of aviation.

Just my thoughts.

Smithy

[Russ Bost]

I almost gave up when I was at the circuits stage - I had an instructor whom I didn't get on with, but after having a bit of a head to head with him, & pointing out who was the customer here, I persevered & finally he sent me off solo - made my best landing ever & the club sacked him later that day!!! I guess I'm not the only one he wasn't popular with!:)

Having got my license a bit over 18 months ago I've not used it a great deal since, & I think a lot of the reason is due to a lack of people who appreciate it, to share it with. I'm sure perhaps if you're with a sizeable club who organize things both on & off the ground it must make it all more interesting & obviously cost plays a part - landing fees at Southend where I learnt are now £20.:eek:

I recently got back in touch with a cousin I hadn't seen or heard from for about 40 years only to find he took his PPL at the same age I did! (albeit 7 years ago as he's older). We've now flown together a few times, he has an aerobatic Zlin & has introduced me to both aeros & farm strip flying & all of a sudden things seem much more exciting - I'm looking at getting a tailwheel conversion & purchasing a VLA which will be far cheaper to fly (even with the maintenance & hangarage), & a lot more interesting, than the spamcans I've been used to & hopefully may find some others to share costs with & get a small group going.

All I would say to anyone that's thinking of giving up is don't - persevere, get your licence & then look around a bit - join some forums:ok:, join the LAA & see just what else there is outside of the typical flying school environment.

[IO540]

Has anybody else noticed the common thread here that the best way to stay in flying is to get away from one's flying school?

Something's wrong there!

[PlasticPilot]

Pace, I got your point, but I don't agree:

ie you cannot insure against everything in life and anyway if you crashed a light aircraft you wouldnt be around to worry about your house anyway!

The point is not to be insured for everything, but my wife is not working for the time being. If the worst had to happen, I don't want to leave her and our kid with a mortgage to pay and no job. Was having a family been mentionned as possible brake to aviation ?

[DavidHoul52]

the best way to stay in flying is to get away from one's flying school

It's not necessarily a poor reflection on the flying school. I had a super instructor, the schools admin person was always friendly, efficient and helpful (both good looking too ;)).

Post PPL things are not so positive. On the plus side they inevitably have an aircraft available for me, even at short notice. On the other side, their hire rates are well above average and there seems to be nothing organised for PPL graduates. Even shared flying is discouraged.

I am an IT contractor out of work for a few months so I've grounded myself until things get going again financially. I don't feel too bad about that as I've had some fun and gained good experience after passing my PPL. When I do I go up again I suspect it will be at another flying club (not sure which one as yet).

[Cobalt]

[quote="IO540"]The best way to stay in flying is to get away from one's flying school
DavidHoul52
It's not necessarily a poor reflection on the flying school. I had a super instructor, the schools admin person was always friendly, efficient and helpful (both good looking too http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif).

Post PPL things are not so positive. On the plus side they inevitably have an aircraft available for me, even at short notice. On the other side, their hire rates are well above average and there seems to be nothing organised for PPL graduates. Even shared flying is discouraged.


Consider yourself lucky on aircraft availability. Most schools do not like to rent out aircraft for a day, let alone for a week-end, because it depresses utilisation.

The school I learned to fly at had two Mooney-201, an Arrow, and one C172 "Rocket" that were dedicated to after PPL-rental and were not/rarely used for training, and the rental availability of the 4 PA28s and 2 other C172s used in training was great since the main training fleet was several C150 and DV20s (Katanas) and only a small part of the PPL course was tought on PA28s.

Their business model clearly included post-PPL "upgrades" to fast tourers as well as then renting them out for proper touring.

They did organise occasional trips but what really made the difference that they encouraged you to stretch your wings on your own (You want to fly to Munich for three days? Sure! Only 5 hours flown but away for three days? Don't worry, nobody is flying this on Monday anyway so be our guest... while you are here, how about a quick revision of some radio procedures at an international airport?)

Not found anything like it here so far...

[Fuji Abound]

I wonder why schools dont put together groups.

This would be the business model.

Six post club PPLs (or any number you like) are "organised" into a group by the club. The club leases the aircraft (plenty of lease deals are availlable) in order to avoid committing capital (which most clubs dont have anyway). The group members are responsible for meeting the costs of running the aircraft and the lease.

Advantages:

The members have their own aircraft but havent had to find much (if any) capital. They have all the availability required. Since the club maintains the aircraft they should gain the advantage of better maintenance rates (because of the clubs buying power) and all the peripheral services the club can offer (keeping an eye on the aircraft, cleaning, booking, FBO services). Of course the club gains as well because they charge for the service (which is how they now make their money). In short everyone wins and the club can even buy hours back from the group when the aircraft is not being used if this is what the group want.

In this way the club has a captive market, keeps it post PPL students happy and ensures they go on providing a source of income to the club which could well be as good as if they rented, ended up getting pi**ed off with the lack of availability and went elsewhere.

It is a good business model and I happen to know it does work.

I wonder why more clubs dont give it a go?

[gasax]

It is a bit chicken and egg. 'Flying clubs' are actually training companies. their activites are thus based around attracting people to learn to fly and once they can no longer sell them anymore training persuading them to stop drinking the coffee and clear off.

Changing that model would require enthusiasm, effort and good management - in short supply across most of industry and almost unheard of in GA.

I am presently a memeber of a real flying club, but they do not have access to aircraft of their own. So there are talks, socials, flyout and fly-ins and a fair bit of trying to put things together.

But at the two 'clubs' where I trained they had touring aircraft which were under utilised, the 'clubs' used they for IMCs but had a complete aversion to taking them away....

So the majority of clubs do not encourage PPLs to stay and then there is the shear weight of restrictions, criteria and just general aggravation that is necessary to maintain a licence courtesy of JAR and now EASA. No wonder people just fade away.

[IO540]

I wonder why schools dont put together groups.I own the copyright on that one :) from one of the countless previous threads on this subject :)

The best way to train pilots and to mentor them afterwards so they turn into people who can actually do something with that piece of paper, would be to assemble syndicates around the training planes, and when a syndicate has reached the required # (say 5 or 10 shareholders) the school flogs the plane to the syndicate, and buys a new plane. So, for every 5-10 pilots you trained that choose to hang around afterwards, you get a new plane.

One of the challenges of the above is to market the product at people with a bit of money, whereas the majority of current student intake is relatively skint. This is what Cirrus do in the USA, obviously successfully, but this strategy is slagged as "elitist" in the UK.

The other challenge is the required sea change in management attitudes, to allow experienced PPLs to hang around afterwards, so they can buy the syndicate shares, mentor pilots, etc.

Unfortunately, this whole strategy would assume decent planes, not the usual junk used on the training scene, and this has been slightly screwed by the problems at Diamond. But in say 1-2 years' time, or perhaps today with the DA40-180, you could do it.

[Fuji Abound]

The problem for most / many is the capital investment.

Also many are rightly worried about the hassle of running a group.

There are as I said many opportunities to purchase new / newish aircraft on lease back deals. This overcomes the need to "find" the capital (both the club and the members). Of course you potentially pay a premium but it may be a whole lot less than you would imagine.

Doing it this way is an unusual win win situation. The club members get a shiny new(ish) aircraft fully maintained and run by an FBO, with a supply of people wanting to join the syndicate, good availability and at a reasonable cost. Inevitably more costly however than renting. The club make money out of providing the FBO services and are potentially able to use the aircraft when not being used by the members.

I know it works because I did just this with a club ten years ago. It worked really well until the club went bust for other reasons. I know of another club that did the same thing recently for a short while. I am not sure why they ceased. Sadly they may think they can make more money out of straight hire - done properly they would be wrong.

IO - perhaps we should copyright the idea, as I have done it and you have revisited it more recently. :) Sadly, having seen how some people treat property which is not theirs (and even when it is theirs but they only have a part share) - as the saying goes - it would not be for me at the club level however.

[IO540]

There are as I said many opportunities to purchase new / newish aircraft on lease back deals. This overcomes the need to "find" the capital (both the club and the members). Of course you potentially pay a premium but it may be a whole lot less than you would imagine.

The problem with financing (borrowing money to buy the thing) is that the interest has to be chucked into the equation.

Whereas if one buys a long life asset with cash, one doesn't have to do that. OK, an accountant would argue that one always should, but if one did that with everything in life, one would die extremely rich, with all one's assets in investment vehicles, and with bed sores because one never got out of bed :)

Buying planes on finance happens to be a very American thing - a lot of people there do it. Every year they meet up with their financial advisor for an appraisal of their net worth, and when the bottom line falls below some figure they get the Prozac out. What a way to live! I paid 200k for the TB20 in 2002; I could get maybe 130k for it now (maybe) but who cares? I was up even in today's crappy weather, drilling holes in some clouds and popping out of the bottom at 800ft on an instrument approach afterwards. And one can go places too, seriously. Priceless! That's the package you have to sell to people. And that is the biggest challenge. One cannot build any kind of meaningful business model around customers who are scraping out the bottom of the barrel. One can (and should) accomodate those, but one needs the affluent ones to do the real funding.

[steveking]

The club I learnt at is quite happy to have PPL's hanging around and I visit there regular in my aircraft but I know that I have to be carefull not to take people flying from there. I do do it occasionly with very good friends but I understand the club at the end of the day is a buisness and I think they can see it as taking some buisness away from them. There are very few aircraft owners there and people learning don't have much to inspire them after passing.

It has been mentioned about clubs doing syndicates. Where I keep my aircraft there is a microlight school and the instructor got a CTSW to teach in. He quickly moved on to selling 5 shares in it which attracted more students as it's much cheaper to learn in your own aircraft than renting. There are now 5 CTSW's on our field all students and syndicate owners who have gone through this instructor. He never discourages his qualifed students from hanging around and is always organising fly outs for everyone. He took 9 CTSW's all round Spain this summer and half of the pilots had only passed that summer. He has mentioned that when a new student arrives they see what everyone else is up to and want the same. So all the X students are helping to promote his club.

It would be nice to see this at the GA club where I learnt but sadly not. It is a shame as I have good friends at both clubs but my JAR PPL friends seem to not to have the same fun as some of the NPPL M friends I have. I can't believe it's all down to cost as the hourly rate in the CTSW if you don't own it is similar to that of the GA club and the shares come in at £12k each.

I do think that the micro club at my field has filled the gap we are all talking about, mentoring and interesting flying after passing it just needs to be repeated at some of the GA clubs.

[BigJoeRice]

I gave up my PPL because when I really gave it some honest thought, I concluded I really wasn't that good at it. I was competent enough to solo after 8 hours and GFT at 43 hours, but it never seemed that, in the parlance, I strapped in and became part of the aircraft. I could "operate it" but not really "fly it". After 77 hours, it seemed that I wasn't much more proficent than I was at the GFT, so I decided I should stop before I did something more embarrssing than being a bit late on the round out now and again.

I wonder how many people who quote "economics" and job or family constraints as the reason they quit, did not also reach the same conclusion, but didn't want to admit it to themselves - or peers and significant others?

[Lister Noble]

I'm sure there are lots of PPL's out there like me,around 150-200 hrs.
Flying the same sort of aircraft they learned in and not doing any sort of further training.
I decided to buy a share in a tailwheel aircraft,did the conversion training and also have done two sets of spin avoidance and recovery training,which I will continue.
We need to have some confidence in our flying ability and that won't come quickly with our 30-40 hrs/year.

You don't have to spend £220 K,have a glass cockpit, be flash etc to enjoy your flying.
I fly an ex US Army aircraft that is 66 years old and saw action in WW2,it's slow but very responsive,a joy to fly and welcome at every airshow in the UK.
The last one I went to I was asked if I minded parking next to the P51 Mustang!
It cost £40/hr wet ,that is all in, plus a small amount according to the state of the engine fund ,normally a couple of hundred a year.
The 1/14 share I bought cost £1250.
We book using the internet and being retired I am able to fly almost whenever I wan't,even when I was working it was never a problem as I live 15 mins from the strip.
OK there is quite a waiting list to join the group,and I was very lucky to be invited.
But there are lots of reasonable priced groups and unless you are very rich that is the way to go.
You don't have to fly IMC,in a flash plane, with tons of gear to enjoy flying!
Honestly,you learn to fly to be up there with the birds.
All my airline pilots pals fly Pitts etc,and go up for 30 mins max.
Their advice to me is " If you wan't to go somewhere,get in the back of an airliner,let someone else fly and have a large G&T".
Lister:)

[IO540]

All my airline pilots pals fly Pitts etc,and go up for 30 mins max.
Their advice to me is " If you wan't to go somewhere,get in the back of an airliner,let someone else fly and have a large G&T".

That's very true - very few airline pilots are interested in flying IFR privately - but if you flew a highly automated and procedure-bound aircraft on the same legs a few times a day, you would be thoroughly sick of IFR too :)

I would never pretend that being able to fly say 800nm somewhere beats doing it by an airline. Of course it costs a lot more. In some cases it is valuable, e.g. when carrying special tools or equipment; more so when it avoid a long trek to Stansted. But - for me - the adventure does add a very valuable dimension to flying and the occassional such trip does make the whole thing much more interesting. However, if I did such a trip every week I would soon be sick of flying. It would be 500hrs/year which is a ludicrous time to spend in a light aircraft.

[Mickey Kaye]

"I wonder why schools dont put together groups"

Oh that brought a smile to my face and totally agree with you.

However going back some 10-15 years the wise big chief at tollerton aerodrome who also ran the flying club BANNED group aircraft with more than 4 shares.

They thought people were flying the group aeroplanes and not hiring the club one enough.

I thought this was dreadfully short sighted at the time. And having recently visited Tollerton only to find it very quite I have to conclude that I was correct and they were wrong. (Comments an opinion, based on a 30 min visit, which is hardly scientific I know)