Dubai / UAE

[barstewards]

A few questions for yellow snow or anyone else working in UAE (relating to your post on the banding thread)

If the NATS pension is closed to new members I will probably be looking for a new employer..

- housing allowance - what would your monthly allowance get you in terms of rent/mortgage?

- Bills - roughly what are the monthly bills such as electric, water, (council tax/rates?) etc

- Cost of living - apart from fuel, what is the cost of living like compared to the uk?

- Wives/family - do they generally find it quite easy to fit in (especially if they are used to working and suddenly they are a 'Jamera Jane'?

- Success rate - is there much of a failure rate in validating or do they generally pick the people most likely to succeed?

- Roster - is it a rolling rota so you know days on/off in advance + what is the annual leave entitlement?

- Pension - is there any company scheme or do you make your own provisions?


Thanks

[ImnotanERIC]

how do you go about enquiring?

[ImnotanERIC]

Yellow snow:

Do you know much about the ACC side of ops in uae? I have had trouble looking on the net. not really sure where to start. Does it provide service for all the uae? is there just one centre? What about the neighbouring countries? Is there a good working relationship with oman/iran/saudia arabia?You mentioned flights home. Is that one per year or more frequently?
Also , I see all staff do the night shifts. Is this due to much of the traffic turning up during the night. (judging by uk departure t/o times anyway)
thanks in advance

[autothrottle]

Yellow Snow,

I take it they have the padded toilet paper?

hope life treating you well out there!

A/T:E

[Red Dragon]

Yellow Snow,

Good post and pretty accurate. Just 2 things:

Salary (every ATCO earns the same) 34,089 AED PM (£5165)

Basically yes, but then adjusted depending on the whinging/negotiating done with the boss. Payscales are not transparent and some at lower grades earn more than their immediate superiors.

.....and do both radar and tower.


It's either/or, not both. The days of dual valids are numbered.

:ok:

RD

[man friday]

yellow snow,

do you have the address/email to send the cv too

regards
MF

[Scooby Don't]

Up to 2.5 hrs in position actually, though depending on the supervisor it's quite likely that a 2.5 hr stint will be paired with a late start or early go.

Andrex is available in the supermarkets, though sadly is not provided at work where it may sometimes be needed after a brush with CIS airmanship... :eek:

As for housing, note that a villa which cost AED180,000 p/a to rent 6 months ago will now be offered at AED250,000 p/a or more. A recent arrival is paying AED240,000 or so for a 2-bedroom apartment. There is some hope among those who haven't bought that a correction is coming in the housing market, and with it might come a reduction in rental prices. In the meantime though, landlords here have a reputation for mercenary instincts.

[Yellow Snow]

Providing the Mods don't mind and no rules are broken, then the email address is below:-

The boss is happy for the email address to go on here, but this is for Approach and Tower only for DXB and the new JXB airport not area

[email protected]
FAO Eric melvin

I've got to disagree with you Scooby on rental prices, having only recently gone through it. 180-190K in JLT is about right, we've only paid 200k in The Links, for a new build 2 bed, 1600 sqft fantastic views and quality fittings. Looking in todays property pages, apartment rentals haven't changed a jot in the last 3 months, and there is good availabilty to keep it this way, as opposed to a villa where there is huge under supply. You may pay up to 240K to live on the palm, but that is an extreme.
Agree with everyhting else, landlords here are greedy, evil, arrogant, ignorant, greedy, evil.....people, almost as bad as estate agents, who are just simply lazy and useless here

[Scooby Don't]

Yellow Snow - I can only go by the advertised prices for the villa I'm currently sitting in! The same floorplan is now above 250,000, up from 160,000 at the start of the year and 180-190,000 six months ago. It is certainly not the fault of Serco that rents have gone crazy, and bringing in an increase earlier than expected shows a level of responsiveness that is rare in ATC management. Still, isn't it fair for an ATCO to expect to be able to afford a 3-bedroom, non-flashy villa?

Anyhoo, away from rental prices and whatnot, Dubai is a great place to work thanks to a cosmopolitan crowd who generally display a lot of humour and a great ability to support one another, especially when newbies are settling in. The work is challenging, and so is trying to last the evening after Friday brunch...

[man friday]

yellow snow,

thanks for that

Mf

[Trotsky]

Thank you fellows for all the info on Dubai. Does anyone here know how Abu Dhabi compares to the Dubai package?

I did look into it about a year ago and it wasn´t enticing enough for me to pick up my tent and go there, but things in the financial world have really changed in the last 6 months up here and the exchange rate has more than doubled since the IKR is becoming worthless:-)

Is the financial crisis having an effect in the UAE also or does money continue to flow from the ground?

Best regards and Thank you,

Trotsky
BIKF APP/TWR
Keflavík, Iceland

[rossbrereton18]

Hi, i will be applying for ATC training in March 09, but my dream is to travel with the job eventually after becoming qualified, what is the name of the authority, like NATS in the UAE, for ATC employment?

[TheFalcon]

Serco is the Dubai ATS provider under government contract. rossbrereton18 you need to walk before you run,ie: get validated get some experience then fly to whatever and wherever you fancy. Contracts in the Middle East require a minimum of 5 years experience but looking at the way Serco employs people its normally from the geriatric ward! Good luck to you in your career.

To those considering coming over here be ready to deduct a significant amount from you salary for accomodation unless of course you want to live downtown in a rundown flat. There are no taxes here but they are actually everywhere. Housing is just as expensive as New york (or more) now and the governtment is doing nothing about it. Many companies are relocating for this same reason as now its spiralling beyond control!

[Caesartheboogeyman]

I know of two people who have moved to dubai with less than 5 years experience so maybe they are loosening their must haves

[Tower Ranger]

Hey Falcon,

geriatric? Speak for yourself old boy!! The average age of the Tower guys in Dubai is probably younger than at any Uk unit. The five year requirement is/was a Govt. requirement but if you have the proven ability then come and have a go!!

[Yellow Snow]

Serco will and have taken ex NATS into DXB with only 3 years experience.

Falcon, as a newish recruit here, the line about having to use a significant amount of your salary for accommodation is simply rubbish, see my earlier posts about the quality and costs of a two bed apartment, certainly not rundown or in a crap area. However if we're talking about a villa, then I fully agree with you.

[TheFalcon]

Well Yellow Snow I beg to differ. I didn't come here to live in a flat with my family views or no views. A tiny villa in the springs is going at 200k. If you are paying 190K for your flat remember that 20k of your allowance is for utilities. For me any payment for rent accom is significant. In the contract I was promised accom and utilities paid and this is simply not happening. I know for a fact that people have turned down the contract for this reason. If you are happy to live in a high rise flat thats fine. But most people (me included) didn't come here to live worse than at home so paying for a "decent" accom for this purpose means forking out. It may sound snobbish but if we let Serco think that it can keep our accom allowances low so that it can put us up in apartments then that is not going to happen. You are new here so maybe you would like to ask around how the old guys here lived b4 the current situation set in. Its a matter of quality of living. Dubai is still a hole in the desert and simply an artificial mock up city with no soul so for me personally a good home means a lot. Its a matter of perspective I guess.

[Scooby Don't]

Falcon - I would expect there to be an announcement in the near future which will make you somewhat happier. Serco management are aware of the housing situation and, I believe, would like to do something about it.

[Yellow Snow]

Falcon

You may beg to differ, however, your comment was:
To those considering coming over here be ready to deduct a significant amount from you salary for accomodation unless of course you want to live downtown in a rundown flat.

This is very misleading and untrue. As I've stated in my earlier posts.

I received a cheque for 190k from Serco and put another 10K in myself to get a fantastic 2 bed apartment that's far superior to the quality of accomodation I had back in the UK. Not sure what you mean about 20K utilities as I pay these bills myself, nothing to do with Serco.

I agree 100% with you that we should all have the same standard of living, as those lucky enough to be in PS, eg a 3 bed villa, with good amenities in an excellent location with all bills covered by the company, and it creates bad feeling/envy/annoyance that this isn't the case.

However unfair the above is, the facts are that Serco offer a very attractive overall package.

I'd like to think we're singing from the same hymn sheet, but, however unhappy you are with the situation, bear in mind there are ATCO's all over the world equally unhappy with their situation, and I think it only fair that they get the facts not opinion about Dubai.

All the best,
YS

[sparkyt]

Ever had ex-military come out and given it go?

[10 DME ARC]

Coming out in January all info greatly received, yellow snow I have pm'd you.
Ta 10d:)

[TheFalcon]

YS I think it is still a matter of perspective. If you come from the U.K.where houses let alone flats are the size of shoeboxes, then an apartment here is a great improvement. As for the what I said about forking out you just confirmed it yourself. As to the combined utilities and accom allowance you have to refer to your contract. Your 180K includes accom AND utilities or ask Eric as this was stated by him (the figure of 20K) so at the moment you are short of 30K of what was promised in your conditions or about a months salary. Now you can argue that many people in the ATC world are worse off and I agree, its one of the reasons why we are all here. But hey who cares about the rest of the world (sorry ANSA).

Finally my point is this, if what Scooby Don't said and improvements do not materialise we will be shortly sliding back to pre January conditions (obviously it seems you were not here then). The package is good probably among the best in the world and we shouldn't settle for anything less at any time.Taking away a month's salary for accom (and I know some newbies are paying even more than this) is not acceptable. The money is there and if you are sceptical just ask around and see how much the new Airport Safety Mananger is getting for his toils. You will be shocked!!:eek:

[Scooby Don't]

Not rising your challenge Falcon, old bean. :}

Direct no speed, you have email.

All I would add is that the lie ratio from NATS to Serco is well in Serco's favour. Ultimately, we are free to get on with the job with little interruption, and I happen to enjoy the company of my colleagues. Except for Tower Ranger. He's a right wee.....

And he know's I'm kidding, or he would except that I know for a fact he's currently getting rather drunk at the Atlantis!

[Kertez]

The accommodation allowance in Dubai is definately insufficient, irrespective of whether you are on a single/married with kids contract. Having been here 6 years now, I have had to fork out money all the years except the last year, and this is only because I live in the hood (not exactly run down, but definately not a fancy neighbourhood), and is protected by the rent cap. If I was to move out to lets say the marina/old town, you are looking at paying 220 ish for a 2-bed flat + utilities. In other words you would be forking out roughly 4 grand a month from your back pocket. Not saying that you can't afford that, but then don't call it an accommodation allowance, cause it gives a wrong picture of how much cash you have in your hand at the end of the day.

And as a few guys have mentioned, if you're looking to live in a villa, well then you would be forking out 10 grand a Month......

[Quokka]

Pure speculation... however... some business types told me yesterday that a large amount of money is being pulled out of investments in Dubai... not because of a lack of faith in Dubai... but because it's needed elsewhere.

Which begs the question, what impact will this have in Dubai?

At which point the answer offered was a forecast retraction in the Dubai property market. To what extent... no answer.

[mr.777]

Extremely useful info all round guys, thank you. I think you may well be inundated with NATS applicants if, as expected, the pension is wrecked.
Could any radar guys tell me where the approach radar is based for DXB and the new airfield...i.e is it co-located with Tower or are they both at a central unit?
One other thing, and this is purely hearsay so I apologise in advance if its a load of b*llox...i read that the days of tax-free living in UAE may be numbered and that the govt were considering bringing in some form of income tax at some point in the future (i.e not the immediate future). Any truth in this?

[Scooby Don't]

There have been rumours about income tax doing the rounds for years. In reality, the likelihood is VAT-type sales tax, to be phased in gradually.

Approach is currently co-located with DXB tower, and is expected to move to JXB in the near future, serving both airports from the same approach unit. The upshot is mainly that if you're joining now as an approach controller, it's best to get a flat/villa half way between the airports which, luckily enough, fits where most DXB controllers live anyway.

[mr.777]

Thanks Scoob. Thats basically what I heard, just wanted to confirm, and thanks for the other info.:ok:

[Guy D'ageradar]

mr.777

Only problem is that the allowance isn't nearly enough to let you rent something comparable to all the other guys in the same area - rents have gone up so ballistically in even the last 6 months that you'll be very hard pressed to find 3 bedrooms for that price - let's hope that the rumours are correct! (I'll be joining you too, in January). :ok:

[Trotsky]

Thank you people for all the useful info.

I would like to know:

Does Serco own apartments or complexes in the UAE renting it out to their staff, or is it all open market now?

Are people generally staying for 5+ or more years, or is there a constant renewal of Serco employees?

[ATSI]

(Kertez....)

The watchman just confirmed today that a 3-bedroom in Shk Tahnoon Bldg (OLD building), Abu Dhabi is now 250,000 Dhs annually.
Same flat in 2005 was aprx. 60,000 Dhs = increase of 315%

[mickrobbo]

Not a done deal yet but I am also down to start DXB in Jan with quite a few others. Having done a lot of research I have to say 210,000AED for accommodation for married/kids is very low indeed and has me concerned as this basically puts the reason for my move to Dubai in jeopardy.

[TheFalcon]

I think all the points listed here have proven me right. If you are coming to Dubai and wanting something decent to live in (ie:a two-three bedroom house in a not so flashy neighbourhood) then expect to fork out from your pocket. There may not be income tax here but there are deductions everywhere on whatever you do. Dubai is staring to become uncompetitive cos of the greed of a part of the population. In times of crisis like these I wonder whether these same people realise that they are living in a real world where their bubble can really pop in their face!!:eek:

[Track Coastal]

Hold your cash in Swiss Francs accounts...you will see why

[Guy D'ageradar]

Track Coastal Just not with UBS - you will see why!!!

As for renting, I agree entirely with mickrobbo and The Falcon.

Having followed the market fairly closely for the last year or so to see where I will stand in january, I'm pretty disappointed that it is completely impossible to rent a 3 bed villa, even in Mirdif, without forking out another 50,000 chips from my own pocket.

(Yes, Red Dragon I know you told me so but at the time it was 10 grand, not 50.)

I guess all we can do is hope that either the allowance will catch up or the rents will crash, but I wouldn't like to bet which will happen first (curret rumours not withstanding).

Now, what do I do with all those swiss francs that UBS currently has?!......:cool:

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Now, what do I do with all those swiss francs that UBS currently has?!.
Withdraw it,than send it at my bank account(Unicredit Bank) than I will resign,than I will go to Mauritius,than I will open cafe and than I will invite you and your family as well for cappuccino(dozen of them:E) .

[Tin-Bullet]

@ YellowSnow


Salary (every ATCO earns the same) 34,089 AED PM (£5165)


:=:=You are wrong mate……

As Red Dragon posted………

Basically yes, but then adjusted depending on the whinging/negotiating done with the boss. Payscales are not transparent and some at lower grades earn more than their immediate superiors.

NOT ALL ATCO’s have the SAME Salaries here in DXB, & I am not including the ‘GRADE’ difference, being a SUP or WSTO or an A** Licker!

A simple example between the same WSTO Grade, it seems management decide to pay the newest appointed MORE THAN the Most Senior ones! 2 weights 2 measures????( this is ONLY 1 example from A LOT I know of)!


I've got to disagree with you Scooby on rental prices, having only recently gone through it. 180-190K in JLT is about right, we've only paid 200k in The Links, for a new build 2 bed, 1600 sqft fantastic views and quality fittings. Looking in todays property pages, apartment rentals haven't changed a jot in the last 3 months, and there is good availabilty to keep it this way, as opposed to a villa where there is huge under supply. You may pay up to 240K to live on the palm, but that is an extreme.
Agree with everyhting else, landlords here are greedy, evil, arrogant, ignorant, greedy, evil.....people, almost as bad as estate agents, who are just simply lazy and useless here


You are NEARLY spot on here, that is, recently lease rates have been rather stable, but there’s no guarantee that leases will not have their prices INCREASED by yearend!! Another thing, whenever we get an increase in accommodation allowance, this is only for those who have their immediate yearly allowance about to expiry, so you can either be lucky or REALLY unlucky, like most of us have been throughout these years!

@Trotsky


Is the financial crisis having an effect in the UAE also or does money continue to flow from the ground


Slowly Slowly MONEY will really start FLOWING in an UNSTOPPABLE FLOW out of our pockets with the inflation! You need to really have a good chat with the guys living here…Start from Schooling, Accomodation, SALIK & last but not least FUEL!!

@The Falcon

To those considering coming over here be ready to deduct a significant amount from you salary for accomodation unless of course you want to live downtown in a rundown flat. There are no taxes here but they are actually everywhere. Housing is just as expensive as New york (or more) now and the governtment is doing nothing about it. Many companies are relocating for this same reason as now its spiraling beyond control!

Well said , pretty accurate reply…..Well you can also dare to live in a shared Villa like some ‘geriatric’ personnel……………Even though the Municipality is giving a hard time to Landlords to stop the Villa Sharing, unless you’re a family!

@Tower Ranger


geriatric? Speak for yourself old boy!! The average age of the Tower guys in Dubai is probably younger than at any Uk unit. The five year requirement is/was a Govt. requirement but if you have the proven ability then come and have a go!!


It is true, but it depends WHERE YOU COME FROM, & WHO YOU KNOW TOO!

@Scooby Don’t

Falcon - I would expect there to be an announcement in the near future which will make you somewhat happier. Serco management are aware of the housing situation and, I believe, would like to do something about it.

We are having meetings with the big cheese…a.k.a EBM & discussing what can (COULD) be improved in the near future……. We are hoping that IF there’s an increase in January, it TRULY REFLECTS on the Spiraling Inflation here! Lets keep our fingers crossed & see what happens!

@ direct.no.speed

Has anyone taken their pets with them? Issues with accomodation?

Some ATCOs have pets here, but you gotta be careful when movinghere..First of all it depends where SERCO provides temporary accommodation…..some places do not allow pets….. Secondly, on 7Days Newspaper there was a Front page article, that tenants had to get rid of their pets at once…So you gotta really check & check if you decide to bring a pet with you or else purchase one locally…..

Mind you, you can find baboons strolling the streets daily…where they live…….you wouldn’t wana know!

@skybound1

Sorry to deviate from serco,
but I noticed at the back of flight international GAL is looking for ATC' s, instructors and admin staff, any idea what the pay/conditions/contracts are offered?


These positions are offered for Airports in & around Abu Dhabi & Al Ain…… There are rumours that in Abu Dhabi they wana get rid of SERCO in TWR/APP Contract…..

@ TheFalcon

Finally my point is this, if what Scooby Don't said and improvements do not materialise we will be shortly sliding back to pre January conditions (obviously it seems you were not here then). The package is good probably among the best in the world and we shouldn't settle for anything less at any time.Taking away a month's salary for accom (and I know some newbies are paying even more than this) is not acceptable. The money is there and if you are sceptical just ask around and see how much the new Airport Safety Mananger is getting for his toils. You will be shocked!!


Again WELL SAID, the package is really good, and BEING a TAX-FREE place…But FOR HOW LONG???

We are in the last quarter of 2008…& we have had ONE resignation……

Next Year, its gonna be approximately a minimum SIX (6) resigning…….

Conclusion, SERCO have to start thinking on the near future to retain people & attract newbies…….or else will have to start playing CATCH-Up AGAIN!

Let us hope that something serious will be done to stop this!

@ mr.777

One other thing, and this is purely hearsay so I apologise in advance if its a load of b*llox...i read that the days of tax-free living in UAE may be numbered and that the govt were considering bringing in some form of income tax at some point in the future (i.e not the immediate future). Any truth in this?


SALIK is the first proof!

This is a TAX-FREE place on our EARNINGS, but NOT on whatever you purchase! It is rumoured that VAT will slowly be introduced, but that will be the day & asking for trouble = KHALLAS to the UAE:D

@ mickrobbo


Not a done deal yet but I am also down to start DXB in Jan with quite a few others. Having done a lot of research I have to say 210,000AED for accommodation for married/kids is very low indeed and has me concerned as this basically puts the reason for my move to Dubai in jeopardy

You have done your homework well it seems.. I and the other UAE ATCOs who post here are not discouraging anyone from joining us, but sadly AND truly the property prices & lease rents are just a joke! We all choose to live in a place of our liking.. but of course AT A PRICE! If someone lived in a townhouse or a villa, it’s gonna be REALLY REALLY HARD to find something suitable with our present accommodation allowance! With AED210k for married with kids, you will be lucky to find a decent 2 b/r ‘villa’ (Townhouse) in Springs which is not so big approx 1700sqft.. As YellowSnow posted you can opt for an apartment.. but who wants to live in an apartment if you lived in a better luxury? For us who have been here quite a long time, it is easier now, but we have also have had our fair share of despair & frustrations, but we must also not forget that things have improved drastically lately…. We all want more n more n more, that means more beer to flow @ d pub too! :E

All those who have posted here have put valid & true posts, which unless you are ‘really living it’ you would really be shocked when faced with all these issues once new recruits make a move here!

INSH’ALLAH we can get an improved package, & hopefully our Management addresses the issues with DCA for a drastically improved package!!

Good Luck to All joiners, excuse me for the long post, but been away from holidays away from it all……

[prowler]

Would have thought that things are smooth here in the Pit.....

Let's be realistic, apart from the inflation, accomodation is a real big issue!

Let's hope that something fruitful comes out of these meetings with the big boss!

One last thing, for those joining us in the Pit (but) for Jebel Ali, it is delayed AGAIN!

Target Date JUNE 2009...

I bet December 2009..........:ugh:

[Scooby Don't]

For those bring pets, a couple of websites...

www.dkc.ae (http://www.dkc.com)

Home (http://www.dubaidogclub.com)

[iraatc777]

is it difficult to live in the Middle East?

[Trotsky]

You can try this one:


[email protected]


He may be able to help your CV end up in the right hands:)

Best wishes,
Trotsky.

[iraatc777]

Thanks a lot:}

[Papa1]

It is a great lifestyle in Dubai having recently moved here but the big sting in the tail is housing. Totally agree that it is not selfish or arrogant to expect to live in a modest 3 or 4 bed villa with a bit of garden - so the rent allowance is a con. After deducting council tax (municipality charge at 5% of rent), electricity & water costs (very high) how can you afford to pay upto 300K pa rent for a decent gaff when the allowance is 210K - thats a hell of a lot of your 'tax free' salary.

You should be over here to make money and not be afraid to say it, after all thats why you leave your old job - change, new life etc - rent allowance should be 300K minimum!!!! C'mon cough up guys it's okay for those been sat here for 20 years on the up :*escalator........

[TheFalcon]

You hit the nail on the head Papa1 and confirmed everything I said. No announcements yet and still the lucky ones to get any increase (if any) are the freshmen. We will get ours next year, now how's that for fairness!!

[Guy D'ageradar]

TheFalcon, in all fairness, (and assuming that you are talking about accommodation allowances) I would be very surprised if it isn't the "Freshmen" who are paying, by far, the highest rates of rent - hence (maybe) the misbalance.

I fully understand why you (and, in fact, I) believe that all should receive the same rate but I can also see why EM and co would prioritise in favour of those that actually need it to pay the rent and not for new toys, etc.

At the end of the day, the accommodation allowance is clearly woefully inadequate and last years increase will very quickly evaporate to make up for it's shortcomings, along with the rampant inflation, back-door taxes (sorry, fees! definitely not taxes) etc. :yuk:

[Fox3snapshot]

At the end of the day, the accommodation allowance is clearly woefully inadequate....

You have no idea my friend, come to Abu Dhabi, halve your allowance (and a little bit more!) and keep the same rental commitments and you are in our position. Pay rise a year or so ago still fell over 10,000 short per month on yours so spare a thought. :uhoh:

I would like to be the eternal optimist, but my family name dictates that what can go wrong will! :{

[iraatc777]

What`s amiss?:}.

[BIRD2008]

Hi
Could anybody tell me the difference of working for Serco and GCAA. I'm looking into applying for a job in Abu Dhabi ACC. GCAA is looking for controllers to work there with the salary 47.000 AED+medical+bonuses. Does anybody have any idea what could be included in the bonuses? Is there some standard package, housing and etc.?

Thanks a lot
Cheers

[prowler]

Were supposed to have a meeting today with Mr.Big Cheese ........

Guess what......

Meeting CANCELLED........

Guess would have been pretty same'ol crap the other Teams got......:yuk:

[Guy D'ageradar]

Hey Prowler, relax...........they're probably just waiting for the last couple of signatures to authorise the necessary 40% increase in the accommodation allowance!!:} Be coming any day now........................:suspect:

[The Jolly Roger]

Here's a shot in the dark!!!!!!......

Any of you Dubai guys have an apartment you want to rent to an ole Abu Dhabi colleague!!! Or take over an old lease?? Lookin in Marina (ish).....

You guys are on a winner compared to us megre souls...100k per year SERCO give us...granted accomm is provided at greatly reduced rates, but hey, all's well that ends well!!! .....Anyone heard of figures...i'm tearin me hair out lookin at rental prices go up by the day.....some ok apartments in the marina for the 200k mark...but can't take the chance yet on 2 cheques not knowin what SERCO are goin to give us!!!



Another satisfied customer.......we should have him stuffed...

[prowler]

To Mr.Guy D'ageradar;

Hey Prowler, relax...........they're probably just waiting for the last couple of signatures to authorise the necessary 40% increase in the accommodation allowance!!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif Be coming any day now........................http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/cwm13.gif


Do you REALLY KNOW where you're heading to? (as you say early next year)

Things have surely improved salarywise, last year, BUT if Management do not do something SERIOUSLY to keep up & reflect on Dubai's Inflation & ESPECIALLY Accomodation issues, by topping up our Accomodation Allowances, then we will be back to square one.....As WE WERE in the PAST!

SERCO are ALSO trying to get rid of 'Leases in their name', & many of us have been shafted by this! So my dear friend, INSH'ALLAH some things will really be sorted out & "your dreams of the 40% increase in Accomodation Allowance COME THROUGH!"

I am not being negative about things.. but just REALISTIC, & neither basing my facts on rumours, but through all the Crap our different Teams have been told in the Meetings with the Boss.....:yuk:

Good Luck My Friend!

[Guy D'ageradar]

Mr. Prowler,

Don't worry, the glasses are definitely not rose tinted - I can dream though, can't I?

I've been following the rental market for a year or so now and have been wondering whether the lease would be "taken care of" by Serco or if I'd need to do it all myself. I guess that's also a way of making us pay the agent's fees and security deposits too!

I fully agree though that if the momentum that was built up thanks to last year's pay rise is not to be lost, some serious effort has to be made to ensure that all is not lost through inflation / rent increases. There's not much point making big changes to re-motivate the troops if everything that was improved is rapidly eroded by rampant inflation / greedy landlords.

Thanks for the updates and see you in January.......Insh'allah!:ok:

[Scooby Don't]

FYI - if you have to pay an agency fee to secure a villa/flat, Serco will pay that. They obviously won't pay the security deposit as that's your money which you should get back (I know, UAE landlords...).

[grizzled]

To TJR:

Check your PMs

Grizz

[big-blue-sky]

Does anyone have a point of contact/email address for Abu Dhabi ATC?
Thanks

[prowler]

Abu Dhabi it self has more than one contract......'CONNECTIONS'...

OMAA - Abu Dhabi Tower/Approach is ONE Contract - SERCO.

OMAE - Centre is ANOTHER Contract, which is further sub-divided between SERCO & GCAA.

Now ther's also GAL - Who are recruiting for other airports in the Vicinity...

[BIRD2008]

Hi

I send my CV to GCAA few weeks ago. There has been no reply other than initial reply that they got the application. Does anybody know what is happening over there. Are they just taking their time going over all the CVs or what?
Is this maybe normal procedure with GCAA?
Could somebody maybe give me contact info for Serco in the UAE and the places around UAE if you have it.

Cheers

[Number Last]

There have been a lot of reports in the media regarding the credit crunch impacting Dubai property development. What impact is it having for Joe Average in Dubai and are the exorbitant rents coming back in to check.

Hoping to come play over there next year and just trying to get the full picture.

[The Jolly Roger]

Credit Crunch hits Dubai????? What??? No way!!!...sssshhhhhh....nobody is supposed to mutter those words.......

Unfortunately Joe Average will still be up the landlords :mad: for a while yet when it comes to rents.....there are still new, empty buildings in Dubai all boarded up until the time is right for the vultures to seize their prey......Its highly unlikely anything is goin to happen with the rents here over the short term....as long as they "slow bleed" a couple of apartments here and there, it will sill look as if the demand for aprtments is high when actually its quite the opposite!!!:suspect:

[trailblazer]

Apparently Serco has finally signed a contract with the GCAA. Has anybody heard anything, or will people be working on January 1st without any clue of what they're getting paid? :O

[SINGAPURCANAC]

10 000 + EUR per month,:cool:
it seems that some ANSPs will face with problems:E

[Number Last]

Hope I get the call up soon... Has there been any increase in the accommodation allowance?

[Tuss]

I have tried SERCO and I also just got the initial response from them, can u assist me with contact details for GCAA Please

[Fox3snapshot]

"Cleared to Land"
"Cleared for Take Off"
"Cleared to Land"
"Cleared for Take Off"
"Cleared to Land"
"Cleared for Take Off"
"Cleared to Land"
"Cleared for Take Off"

Sorry just practicing.......cough sniffle, sorry just blew the dust off my CV. Now where was that ADAC email address....:p

[nelsonmadiba]

Controller:
51,500 Dhs per month + all the above

is this valid for dubai ACC as well?

can someone explain what ADAC means?

[Fox3snapshot]

First Answer, No, all the UAE contracts are independent and Dubai is an Approach Unit not an ACC.

Second Answer: ADAC - Abu Dhabi Airports Company

Abu Dhabi Airports Company (http://www.adac.ae/default.htm)

:cool:

[nelsonmadiba]

so,should I apply for job as ACC atco there would be no chance of getting one in Dubai but only Abu Dhabi right?

[Fox3snapshot]

That I can't answer, perhaps use the 'shotgun' method and see what response you get. ;)

[The Jolly Roger]

BIG day tomorrow........or is it!!!!! :hmm::hmm::hmm:

[Tangur]

Sorry, guys! Could you help me? I'm looking for a job in UAE as a rated area air traffic controller. Is it possible to find some information about it...contacts for CV...:O Happy New Year !

[danslemerde]

Anyone know the score for the DXB, AUH Controllers/Engineers and Serco?

Heard things are a bit sticky there and the Serco contract has only a temporary extension.

[johnny555]

Hi guys, I was also in a similar quandary to the last gent in this post, I applied for and was interviewed for a Eng post at the new world airport (or what ever its working title now is?) Many months ago and have found a total "black hole" of information surrounding this topic.

(In fairness Serco may not be in a position to reply, but is no news good news?? -- I dunno!

Is any one in a position to say what’s going on with, is the DANS shake up holding thing up,? Is the recession putting a cap on the Airport project? are there enough labourers to finish the jobs? Has there just been "slippage" on the project (I have noticed projected operating dates have gone backwards (towards the future!) since Nov 2007 when the news was the first runway was completed.

It would be nice to know, cheers lads (and ladies)

[The Jolly Roger]

Vercing.......I'm surprised you don't know already now!!!

Basically new deal is 51k per month for new starters rising to about 57k for supervisors. Accommodation allowance is taken out of that then......you can have more or less what you want. GCAA are sure to b a little more...we'll have to wait and see. I'm happy, but considering what the airport guys with ADAC are getting, there's sure to be some sour heads. If you've got kids, its still not enough.

[The Jolly Roger]

From where I came, our ubions told us that 25% pay increases never happen.......mmmm...apparently they do!!!! Happy days.....now back to the beach...:cool:

[BIGBRAT32]

Anybody who can help,

A co-worker of mine and I are really intrigued about the possibility of applying and working in UAE. I'm trying to get a realistic salary number in US dollars and also if you know the time frame of the process from application to hire. I have read somewhere that they do not accept military experience is that for other countries or the US as well. Would the fact that I am a civilian working at a military facility disqualify me as well?

Don't know how often you check this but I sure hope you can respond and help me out.

Looking forward to corresponding w/you.

Frustrated Controller

[BIGBRAT32]

Vercingetorix,

That helps out a bunch since my CTO was issued by the FAA here stateside I should be good to go. Probably looking at applying in a couple of months with that timeline you mentioned that would work out perfectly for things I need to take care of before hopefully getting signed on. So the minimum contract is 3 years? I think I read elsewhere that the leave/vacation authorized is 36 days or so?

More questions to follow and thanks again

[BIGBRAT32]

V,

Is the allowance included in that 52K DHS per month package or is there a supplement to assist? Varying estimates on how much it actually costs to get a place. Let's just say I will be a single male not looking for anything overly extravagant but I definitely don't want to live in the "hood" as they say back here. Meaning a dangerous or dirty part of the city. On average how much would that be give or take?

[Tower Ranger]

For a one bed apt somewhere that you would wanna live it will be about 150k and for a two bed it will start at 180K. Most of the people that have started within the last year are paying 200 or over for apartments.
Check out dubizzle.com , Cheers TR.

[BIGBRAT32]

Thanks for the info. But that still doesn't let me know if that comes out of a housing stipend or is that something that has to be paid out of pocket from the base salary. Any takers on that one :-)

[Fox3snapshot]

Best contact the contract managers directly for the latest...too many questions to little time and things are evolving as we type so the information you are getting on here may not be accurate or more typically may be a fluffy perception someone might have on what is really going on .

Part of the aptitude testing in getting a job out here of course is to find the contract managers addresses.....:E

[Tower Ranger]

BB32
Basically you get about 34K per month into the bank and as single or married without kids a housing allowance of 190K per year in two halves by cheque. You will spend almost all of that allowance on an apt. Pay rise is due this month and if rumours are to be believed it will be around 10%.

[Fox3snapshot]

Make sure of course you know which contract you are looking at as all the packages are different:

UAE ACC (GCAA)
UAE ACC (SERCO)
AA APP (SERCO)
AA APP (ADAC)
DB APP (SERCO)

.....to name but a few

Good luck :ok:

[BIGBRAT32]

Well alright! Hey thanks for taking me this far. Seems like you guys have fun out there

[Shuski]

Is there a contract to TWR ATC?

Can I get some contacts?

RS

[BIGBRAT32]

Dude, as we say back here...

YOU'RE THE SHIZNIT!

[Fox3snapshot]

Please tell me you are reading the thread....Verci gave you a horrible hint on where to start only 5 posts ago! :hmm:

And there I was thinking we were in an educated percentage of the community, c'mon guys, read the threads and search the threads as the same information is repeated on numerous occasions....let your fingers do the walking! :bored:

[kokako7]

hi guys! happy new year to all of u! Is there any possibility to get ATCO's job in UAE from respectively low traffic areas?
Thank u in advance!:)

[BIGBRAT32]

Hey brother don't call me out like that ;-). I'm still in the fact finding mode and hopping around a little. Getting home from work and surfing to find out stuff.

Man, you gotta give a guy a break here.

[Shuski]

Your awnser was quite helpfull:sad:. I'm not an ATC, but an ATC's wife ...

Looking for a way to help him get something he want .... but sometimes i get a bit confused with all abreviations ...

And i did read the post, but further down you only talked about ACC or APP and i don't think he has this quailfications ...

But ok, he'll make the call :(

Thanks!!

[Fox3snapshot]

Another quicker method is to look at somebodies post that has some involvement or knowledge of the unit and PM (Personal Message) them.

With only a tower rating, employment in the Middle East contracts will be very limited.

I have tried to avoid using any abbreviations. :E

[Gulfstreamaviator]

RAK had NO radar control, until tomorrow.

They do have a video game consol.

SERCO unit also.

glf

[michael ATC]

Hello Boys you will excuse me for invsion in such remarkable
discussion. First of all I need to say a big thanks for yours information,
which helps me to make picture more or less clear. It is obvious Dubai
is not in the least a land of promise.
But let know something else about ATC,s job in Dobai.
-Are APP and TWR divided into a few sectors?
-Do they have the Ground?
-How long does it take to be in a status of trinee?
-Is the salary the same during probation period?
-Do they accept ATCOs who are not from UK, USA, EU,
NZ, or Australia?

Hope I don,t ask too much.
Any answers would be appreciated.
Best regards Michael.:confused:

[TheFalcon]

Hi Michael

Dubai compared to many places is still tops so dont get the wrong impression. Of course its not heaven but hey where is heaven in this world anyway.

To answer your questions:

APP and TWR are divided yes. TWR has ground, one controller for each runway, one ground and one clearance delivery and one coordinator/supervisor.

APP: is divideded into DEP ARR and Director

Trainee duration is set to a maximum of 40 days and recently has been strictly applied. This meant a couple of newcomers going home.

Yes salary is same.

You missed South Africa, Canada. If you are from East Europe or not in the list mentioned its hard. They always look for people coming from busy airports and preferably (if not strictly) native english speaking. If you don't satisfy the above mentioned criteria you have to wait until the next controller shortage crisis and then you might stand a chance. Having said that if you are interested you should still apply.

If you need more info pm me.

Hope that answers your questions

[thordurev]

I just came to think of it. I should have asked your permission before I PMed you.
I appologize.

[TheFalcon]

Falcon is an open house - no permissions needed!! :ok: Cheers

[Tin-Bullet]

Trainee duration is set to a maximum of 40 days and recently has been strictly applied. This meant a couple of newcomers going home.

To be exact, FOUR (4) New Trainees got the CHOP!!!:sad:

[Loxley]

Where were these trainees from? Any ex-NATS? :sad:

[TheFalcon]

Tin-Bullet you are right but two have been given an alternative posting.

Loxley - They were not NATS guys. NATS controllers are too good to be fired unlike us other poor mortals who had to learn what ATC is all about!

[African Queen]

I would never wish for anybody to fail a check, however, I hope there were a couple of Yanks amongst those who didn''t make it. There are (were?) a couple who operate in their own little world and even speak a language all their own :)

[prowler]

@Loxley

Where were these trainees from? Any ex-NATS? http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif


@TheFalcon

Tin-Bullet you are right but two have been given an alternative posting.
Loxley - They were not NATS guys. NATS controllers are too good to be fired unlike us other poor mortals who had to learn what ATC is all about!

Let's not start a slanging match, with all respect to NATS & other Expats personnel.......

Although, it's true none of them came from NATS, one of 2009's 1st resignations came from an ex-NATS ATCO!.......And you would not bet how long he's been here........

@African Queen

I would never wish for anybody to fail a check, however, I hope there were a couple of Yanks amongst those who didn''t make it. There are (were?) a couple who operate in their own little world and even speak a language all their own

Sorry Mate, from which planet are you from? do you enjoy taking pleasure from someone's pain? Or is it some sort of 'SOUR GRAPES' from your part?:yuk:

Get a LIFE.......:mad::mad::mad:

[Tower Ranger]

Prowler, i don`t think the length of time has anything to do with it and I am not sure what you are trying to imply.
If you know anything about it you must be aware that it had nothing to do with either being ex Nats or working at DXB. A loss to the unit!

[prowler]

I never tried to IMPLY anything, in fact if you read ALL the post, you can confirm that I have NOTHING AGAINST NATS ex personnel.....

Infact,

Let's not start a slanging match, with all respect to NATS & other Expats personnel.......

In some ways I agree with you if it was a loss for the unit or not......but tell it to the PSV List candidates.........:=

[Bongodingo]

I am new and would like to say, thank you very much for all the important info you have provided. I am attempting to funnel all of this into a minor understanding of how things work over in the UAE and still don't have my head wrapped around it.

I am very close to leaving for Afghanistan for a job but want to explore my options before leaving my wife.

I am an American controller who did the Air Force route and am now a contract tower controller in Oklahoma after passing up the FAA for hope of a better route.

I have contacted a couple of the people you mentioned earlier via e-mail about information on these jobs and am awaiting reply.

;)

[Fox3snapshot]

Yo Bongo...

....understanding of how things work over in the UAE and still don't have my head wrapped around it.

Don't worry mate, none of us here have either!! :p

Good luck in the 'Gan' mate, keep your head down and don't trust anyone at the gate of the compound waving their arms in the air repeatedly yelling 'dirka dirka'!! ;)

[pocpicadoor]

Hi all.

Returned from UAE/Serco 4 years ago when the RJ age limit was reached: 58 + 2 in RAK if rqd.

Is the Rhesus factor still applied? Or has the age discrimination ceased??

POC

[Fox3snapshot]

Not an RJ thing unfortunately, a CARS thing and being enforced strictly. We have another of our brethren that is having no luck with the "Authority' regarding this restriction. I believe the way it is written though is that it is unit specific (taking into account traffic levels complexity etc.) and that's how the Al Ain and RAK young fellah's ;) could get away with it. I believe there is some Al Ain controllers in this boat at the moment too.

No doubt somebody in the loop will be able to shed more light on the issue as we have a few approaching their new youth! :p

[Bongodingo]

Good luck in the 'Gan' mate, keep your head down and don't trust anyone at the gate of the compound waving their arms in the air repeatedly yelling 'dirka dirka'!!

Advice taken Fox! :ok:

I recieved reply and forwarded my details. Looks like everythings booked up for now but maybe soon I'll be making the trip over.

Are many 'yanks' over there :)?

Also I was wondering a bit more about the dog situation, I followed the links posted earlier in the thread but one was broken. Are you limited to certain places to live with a dog?

[Fox3snapshot]

pocpicadoor,

At the end of the day, the answer is Yes regardless of the timeless and questionable history of the ruling.

Bongo,

We have a bunch of Americans on the doorstep now. Good lads and seem to be coming to grips with this novel part of the world.

Dogs are limited to villas unless its one of those dogs that fits into the letter box and then you might get away with it in apartments. Truth is though, even on the new contracts, not many can reasonably afford villas on the island, out in the desert slightly cheaper but hard to find. :)

[Bongodingo]

What about motorcycles/scooters? Are they popular there or allowed? Seems that might be a small solution for the gridlock you all mention.

[Loxley]

Bongo,

I have limited knowledge of the UAE and Dubai having only visited a couple of times. However, although they're allowed, I'm fairly certain you would have to be borderline insane to even consider riding a motorbike or scooter out there................. :} :ok:

[Fox3snapshot]

Couple of the boys have motorbikes, best you make your own appraisal of the traffic when you get here.

Personally, I think its safer to play with throwing knives blindfolded standing one legged on a greasy drum! :\

[michael ATC]

Soory mate could you clarify what does it mean
;dirka dirka;?
I have a lot of gaps in my English :confused::confused::confused:

[Fox3snapshot]

Watch Team America.....:}

[thordurev]

Any decent Australian out there whom I might PM?

[Red Dragon]

Any decent Australian out there whom I might PM?

Thanks for the best laugh I've had all week. Genius.

:p

[Bongodingo]

I completed and returned a 'potential staff worksheet' to a contract manager yesterday. If any Serco people in Dubai could pm me I have a quick question. Any help is appreciated.

Cheers.
:ok:

[Tin-Bullet]

we can try to help if we can.....

Just hindsight.......

Recruitment for BOTH Dubai OMDB & Jebel Ali OMJA has been put 'On Hold'!

Latest dates for Jebel Ali is JUNE 2010...... yes 2010!!:confused::confused::confused:

Good Luck!

[Bongodingo]

Is that a projected date based upon not losing anyone at all? Are you that overstaffed?
:sad:

[Fox3snapshot]

Ummmm more to do with no aeroplanes, after all, the AN12's have been banned from UAE so there goes 70% of Jebal Ali's target market! :E

[Bongodingo]

Aha! Yes that could be a problem, i had no idea. That's quite an interesting situation, been doing this job a little while and never seen an aircraft ban, maybe recall but never ban. Well I'll just get on with it and hope for Dubai OMDB to come unglued.

;)

[Fox3snapshot]

Not just ACFT types, but some companies as well. We have some real stars operating in this part of the world that is for sure..... :rolleyes:

[TheFalcon]

Recruitment for BOTH Dubai OMDB & Jebel Ali OMJA has been put 'On Hold'!

Jebel Ali I'm quite sure but are you sure about OMDB as well? I know we are sort of "OK" right now but is there an official "hold"?

[Free_Speed]

Any news about the on-going contract negotiations at OMDB? They seem confident everything is going in the right direction...

Another year of growth and success for Dubai Airports (http://www.zawya.com/Story.cfm/sidZAWYA20090125143227/Another%20year%20of%20growth%20and%20success%20for%20Dubai%2 0Airports/)

[Tin-Bullet]

@ TheFalcon

Jebel Ali I'm quite sure but are you sure about OMDB as well? I know we are sort of "OK" right now but is there an official "hold"?

According to OFFICE & HoT, there are only about 2 or maximum 3 courses planned for this Year!! Then NOTHIN More planned......

Credit crunch sees to have hit the region too, even though we think Money is not a problem here, but the truth is, that traffic levels have gone down TOO!

Again Jebel Ali airport has been delayed for ANOTHER Year, so for now, recruitment has been put on hold......

My big question is, what's gonna happen with the personnel down the road @ Jebel Ali? they can surely be utilised up here in Dubai, as had been rumoured in the past.....:confused:

The Dubai Contract... 1st needs to put the act together & EXTEND the present Contract!! It seems that the 'hoped for Partnership' with the DCA - DANS has been brushed under the carpet.......

Payrise?:mad:

Allowances review?:ouch:

PAY CUT????:{ this is also rumoured......

this credit crunch........:yuk:

DXB Radar is also preparing to move down to the new Unit in Jebel Ali, so if this will happen, then no more training slots for new recruits, cos they will need to train the present ATCOs for the new system down there!

It's all uncertain for now!!:*

[9H31]

Keep us updated please. Heard a roumor the Jebel ali could be delayed even till the end on 2011 or early 2012. :ugh: the problem seems to be a political one.

[TheFalcon]

If we start repeating rumours about pay cuts we are actually inviting them in. This forum is a public one so be very careful about spreading rumours here. I will state this firmly for all to know:

I will not take a pay cut!

And I know a lot who will not. So that all who have ears will hear. If you want Dubai ATC a desert let them cut our salaries!!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

15 days, end of contract notification,is still applicable in your case? :E

[TheFalcon]

Yes 15 days is fine. Much better than sending me cutting sugar cane or shifting cow dung like someone might !!

[Fox3snapshot]

I guess that covers the 15 day end of contract notification comment :ooh:

[Capt Zorro]

Thats what they said in Hong Kong

As one who studies history now, I think back to Hong Kong ATC, they all said No pay cut for us.....and what happened

They got a big pay cut nd most of them took the pay cut right up the a:mad::mad:e and stayed, despite them saying NO WAY.

hope you have a backup plan buddy.

cheers

[TheFalcon]

Well Capt.Zorro maybe you are right, not all have the guts to say no in a unionless organisation such as ours. Yes I do have a backup plan (its a big world out there)and some who are already fed up are already getting to leave anyway. Money isn't everything you know and Dubai really gets up your a:mad:e in the end!

[ddtonti]

Random question guys.

Does anyone know of anyone who takes on assistants in UAE?

Im nearly ex RAF of 8 years, worked in Towers, I'm Met Q and just spent the past 3 years in area radar.

I always hear of ATCO jobs, but dont know where to start enquiring about assistants (thats if you have them out there!)

Have tried Nats and didnt get the job after my interview (wasnt special enough!!)
But really fancy a shot out there.

Any help would be great. :ok:

[TheFalcon]

Assistants in Dubai are not on a Serco contract but DCA. They are either locals or asians. If you fancy living in a shared accom with other fellow asians (no offence to all asians out there of course) I can always ask.

Cheers:ok:

[wadi racer]

Hi ddtonti

The military are contracting out to a company to provide assistants I believe, and they alternate between Minhad and Dubai. I think the company is GAL, however I stand under correction. The have employed quite a few South African assistants and controllers.

Hope that helps ...............
Cheers

[ddtonti]

Thanks for the help guys.

Will be coming over with family. So sharing is not an option!!!! I have also heard about GAL. Think I will get in touch with them.

[Fox3snapshot]

Assistants just received a payrise in the ACC which puts them up around the 1500 GBP mark....per month, nothing included!!! :uhoh:

Oh, I stand corrected, there is the free bus to work! :hmm:

Not an option I'm afraid. GAL don't provide to civil units as they don't have civil accreditation from the Authority here, only providing to the Military units.

[the Shue]

To say that the Jebil Ali Airport completion will be delayed is a bit of a spin on words. It more likely accurate to say that they are unable to meet the unrealistic completion date that someone with a one number licence plate insisted upon. This is very common with most projects in the UAE. Whatever new completion dates that are pulled out of the air are again guidlines not to plan your life around.

Falcon, you have the right attitude in standing firm on the pay cut issue but as you are probably aware, there is absolute zero solidarity in the units there. Sadly, you're departure may actually be welcomed by those who have mates waiting to get in. I don't know if you are with SERCO but that does sound like a typical SERCO type trick, where they put out a rumour of pay cuts, and then when they return with no pay cuts but instead, a zero percent raise, everyone's happy. :(

Fox3, assistants also get FREE uniforms. :cool: They're good quality too, just melt one down and see.

[250 kts]

I understand that there at least 2 NATS area people on their way in early March to start at ACC in Abu Dhabi.

[privatesandwiches]

The first chipping away of the once mighty NATS pension has begun and will continue to be eroded at every chance from here on in.
The main reason people stayed for an entire career is no longer there.
Plenty of people are looking elsewhere already and I would expect quite a few to wander towards sunnier climes. Maybe take VR and then off to pastures new wouldnt be such a bad move.
Well done NATS management, you have potentially shot yourself in the foot there... better appoint new management roles to compensate and do it quickly as thats all you are good at !!! :ok:

[prowler]

For those of us who are still keeping their fingers crossed, or even holding their breaths.......

FORGET any 'Verbal Payrise' (which had to cover at least the inflation) we were told by our Managers........:yuk:

Dubai Govt. does NOT EVEN have the money to pay the salaries of Govt. Employees, & are negotiating with the Banks to cover for salaries!!!

We are employed by a Private Company, who are in-turn sub-contracted by Dubai Airports....

Dubai Airports....of course another Govt.Entity.......

And, the rumoured paycut seems to be getting louder & louder........:=:{:=

[TheFalcon]

Prowler I wonder who pays you to spread these rumours. I have not heard anything of what you have said so maybe you are closer to Management than I am. I also wonder if you see any benefits by writing this kind of garbage here. Even if it was an inkling true you should keep these rumours to yourself and not do someone else's dirty job!

Whoever motivates you must be very happy!! :yuk:

[Scooby Don't]

I'm with Falcon. Such rumours seem designed to do damage and spread fear. Serco ME may not give out many perks, but they give what they say they'll give and every Dubai controller has a contract.

It's in the interests of management and the Dubai government that Dubai remains an ATC unit to aspire to.

[Canoehead]

To all those considering the BIG move.......be aware that these pages are full of mis-information if not outright lies. Too bad we are doing it to our own.

Dubai, Abu Dhabi and all other Gulf ATC locations are revolving doors, always have been, always will be. If you truly want to work here, you will, provided you meet the requirements. You must be rated, training is not provided. Its a fam. Don't waste everyone's else's time with bs. Different units will accept people with different requirements.

Today, DXB can cherry pick, so be sure you are from a very busy twr or tcu. Abu Dhabi seems more desperate. No third world candidates need apply, sorry. Yes SA is considered worthy, mostly because they stay forever.;)

Money should not be your priority. Lifestyle should be no.1.

Let me just finish by saying that the desert is different things for different people. For myself, it's been the best career more ever. Best advice for wannabes is to hook up with someone who is here and ask there real hard questions. Get real answers.

GLTA

[Jat Jet]

"No third world candidates need apply, sorry."
Are they recruiting controllers or pleasing so called first world countries?:confused:
Is this discrimination by design or discretion?
Whatever it is; it the loss of SERCO/Authorities, so many ANSP are successfully recruiting controllers from these countries.

[Canoehead]

I don't think it has anything to do with pleasing first world countries, but rather it's a matter of controller experience. If you're the boss, it makes sense to hire controllers who have been exposed to high traffic levels and modern equipment/procedures. (Even if we are sorely lacking in both these areas...but that's another topic.)
It's all supply and demand. Apparently Abu Dhabi can now pick and choose, which is good. As mentioned earlier, the system is not set up to train, but rather to convert. If an arline needs B777 pilots, you hire those with that rating. It's just quicker and cheaper than training a DH8 guy. **** analogy but you get the drift.
I feel for the folks out in left field, but that's just the way it is. Hope this helps.

[Yellow Snow]

A bit of positive news for any of those lucky enough to be 'cherry picked' and actually get on a 2009 DXB course, is that rental prices are falling fast.

A 3 bed villa with 2500 sqft in the Springs, was 300k when I arrived last summer, they are now going for 210k right on the allowance, with specualtion that rents will drop much more before the economy rights itself.

On the subject of pay, I third the earlier comments, rumours of a pay cut are absolute bull$hit. A more pressing concern to anyone that wants to come here, is that we are, at the moment a touch overstaffed with trainees and ATCOs for JXB with nothing to do, so there may be no more arrivals in 2009 or not until the last quarter at the earliest!

[atcpino]

@Canoehead

I have been twice to Dubai, did an assesment and was told I would be planned in for 2009. However that is a year ago and I have heard nothing after my last visit. Any idea why?

[Jat Jet]

I did not want to join in any debate, but I felt that I must clear few points raised in the thread.
"You can call it discrimination. In this part of the world they call it good business."
I would say that it is a bad business idea to call people from other continents or even other side of globe and pamper them with good money when you can easily turn east and find good quality of people in your neighbourhood.


previous experience has shown that training standards and english standards vary in some countries and as such some will not validate from those countries.

I think Indians/pakistanis are capable of speaking better Queen's English . Certainly they speak better English than people from many non English speaking European countries.

As such individual assesments are required prior to recruitment for ATCOs not from the approved countries, and when we can pick and choose (even in Abu Dhabi Canoe Head, things are changing) we take the people who do not need individual assessment ahead of those who do.
The approved country is I would say is some sort of monopoly created in the minds of Authorities there. A controller just by virtue that he is from the approved countries do not make him a better/efficient controller than someone who he is not from those handpicked countries by the people who had prevoiusly worked in those countries.

I am sure it wont be long that this myth will be busted.


it is the way it will stay.

You will know the world is looking toward Asia and specially your cricketers.

If you're the boss, it makes sense to hire controllers who have been exposed to high traffic levels and modern equipment/procedures. (Even if we are sorely lacking in both these areas...but that's another topic.)

India is first country in world to have latest Raytheon Autotrac3.
VTBS is having latest Thales system
VABB/WMKK/VTBS/VIDP handles and are exposed to high traffic levels.

It's all supply and demand. Apparently Abu Dhabi can now pick and choose, which is good.
Thats what I am debating someone whom you never gave an opportunity, how can you say that he is no good. I know few Indian Controllers are doing well in Europe IAA/DFS.

I feel for the folks out in left field, but that's just the way it is. Hope this helps.
No need to feel sorry, you know world is turning eastward. Give us a chance to compete with you and then decide and pass judgement. Till than happy monopoly in Middle east.

For other readers I am really sorry to take the discussion in this direction!!!

[TheFalcon]

I think Jat Jet is quite right. ME should look east. Asian controllers are quite cheaper than Western Controllers so they could save quite a big buck if they started recruiting from there. I do not know about training standards (new equipment does not mean better controllers) but if they are the same as some of the crews of certain asian carriers then they leave a lot to be desired. About English, why is it that most asian carriers speak so good Queen's English that they have to say confirm for every instruction they get? Are you sure your Queen's english is better than some non-english Europeans? "not-getting". I think it is a question of averages of good versus not-so good and the overall balance is still in the favor of the latter.

I am sure there are good cricketers down your way but controlling is a bit different don't you think? :}

[Scooby Don't]

The fact is, there is no law against discrimination on the basis of nationality in the UAE. Quite the contrary in fact! The UAE government has a program of "Emiritisation" to encourage more of their own citizens into the workplace.

It may well be that Indian ATCOs could do the job sufficiently well at Dubai or Abu Dhabi, but if the GCAA wishes to grant licences to western ex-pats and locals only, so be it. It's their country and they make the rules, just as India makes rules which, so it seems, will soon see the end of ex-pat flying jobs in India, and which already make it all but impossible for non-Indians to invest in Indian businesses.

Railing on Pprune at the injustice of "western only" hiring practices will do nothing to change the situation.

[michael ATC]

Well done Canoehead you completely broke down my expectancies.
Let me PM You and ask some hard questions?!!:(

[WeylanYutani]

Anyone know how long it takes for a response to new apps? Applied with GCAA through flightglobal on Monday but no replies yet. Not even an acknowledgment of receipt.

Anyone know numbers they want, expected start?

[Fox3snapshot]

Response time is slow, based on the fact that you only put the application in on Monday, expect weeks rather than days. This is not unusual however, this is the Middle East. 'Island time' is alive and well here :p

Not sure on staffing numbers but we must be getting close to capacity soon with training and slots etc.

Rough numbers for the GCAA contract from line controller to Supe monthly income in USD ranges from $15,000 - $17,000 tax free with an annual bonus of minimum 1 month basic salary and a max of 3 and a gratuity. Basic medical cover is included (not dental so if you have false teeth like me...take out private cover! :E).

Not included is annual airfares, housing, schooling etc. that is all up to you.

They do assist however with housing rental payments and will pay up to 150,000 AED (UAE dirhams) of your annual rental agreement and put it in their name.

Accommodation here is as rare as snowflakes in the desert in summer but this could improve as the global slowdown starts to impact this part of the world....and yes it has started to even here!

Long and the short of it, it will take time...perhaps a lot of time so if its an urgent departure you need then it might be worth trying to give them a call and chase it up....tell'em The Fox sent you! :}

Good luck with it :cool:

[Fox3snapshot]

Just to avoid confusion, that assistance GCAA provides is not from their pocket but ultimately yours on a monthly basis.

They provide the assistance as the landlords here (thieves actually :suspect:) want the whole year up front which of course is not practical and to have to take out a personal loan to pay a years rent is a crock.

Hope that clarifies it a bit.

[Canoehead]

Atcpino: I have no idea, but a quick phone call to the office here should get you the answers you seek.
Michael ATC: feel free

[WeylanYutani]

Can anyone comment on the lifestyle there? Do you spend your days off going a little stir crazy or do you need to spend most of that extra cash to keep life interesting?

I've heard clubs are all the rage for expats, is there a long waiting list to get in?

[Scooby Don't]

Life in the UAE is largely what you make it...

In Dubai, much depends on whether you're married and have kids. Those with kids tend to spend their days off on child-related activities, much like everywhere else. There are Christian churches which have a particularly strong following among South African controllers and their families.

For single people, there are more bars and nightclubs than anyone actually needs, and there are plenty of activity-based clubs for the non-boozy types. Whether single or married, the restaurant options are plentiful though very expensive at the top end.

Desert driving is very popular and perhaps among the few things most of us can't do at home. If you're going to take advantage of cheap fuel and buy a big 4x4, you may as well use it as intended!

Some sports are, like drinking and eating, more expensive in Dubai than in the west. Golf and shooting come to mind. Expect to pay US$150 or more for a round of golf, and US$5,000 or more for a golf club membership.

It is entirely possible to build a full life in the UAE and even, for some, to envisage staying into retirement or at least for 10 years or more. For some, it's a relatively short-term experience with a choice of enjoying the lifestyle or saving money - doing both isn't as easy as you'd hope! If you are planning on the short-term, say 3 to 5 years, there may be some aspects of life which you'll have to give up for a few years or some that will have to become holiday activities (Ski Dubai is not a replacement for a decent mountain, for example).

If you're a couch potato at home, you'll probably be one here too. If you play rugby, (ice) hockey, cricket or golf at home, you'll probably play them here.

[ISaidRightTurns]

I abstain from this whole thread with the excuse that I am too close.

By the way, the worlds best ATCO's don't have a clue what cricket is!

La la la, please tell Rule III I'm not Heathcliff!!

[Canoehead]

Best controllers in the worlddon't have a clue what criket is (Can't spell it, either), don't know nuthin' 'bout rugby, and spend six months of the year in a deep freeze...:)

[iahsatcs]

I was told by a coworker who is in contact with somebody there that the is now an age limit of 50 for new hires there. Any truth to this?

[Desert Hunter]

I've been 'pushing the doors' and trying in vain to secure an ATCO post in the UAE. The impression I'm getting is that there isn't necessarily a big demand for ATCOs there at the moment. So far, I've discovered that there are around 20 applications from ATCOs seeking a job at Abu Dhabi and only 2 vacancies. Ras Al Khaimah are introducing radar this summer but are fully staffed. I got no joy from Dubai either.

I'm told that there may be opportunities at Sharjah which is Tower only but I'm really looking for a Tower/APR mix. It seems that the number of units where you can do both is forever reducing.

For those who are controlling in the sand pit, how easy is it to move between units? Would it be worthwhile considering a post in Sharjah for a few years with a view to making the side-ways step to the likes of OMAA or OMDB after a while or is this very unlikely?

Any suggestions or advice appreciated.

Feel free to PM.

[TheFalcon]

One over 50 joining in March. I would see more the problem being getting in as we are technically overstaffed!!

[Scooby Don't]

Desert Hunter - I wouldn't bank on a move from unit to unit, but it has been done before. I know of moves from Al Ain and Abu Dhabi to Dubai, and a current Sharjah guy is apparently moving to Dubai, all on the ex-pat side. At least one local has moved units too, and for them that's a change of employer.

[cleard4tkof]

Sharjah sign you up for a 3year contract and you stuck there. GCAA only allow 3year inactive license and then it expires, so the 3 years they make you sign, is actually a catch, cos there is no guarentee for a transfer and they will use that as an excuse to keep you there. salary for new recruits is 20000dhs/month takehome, 90000dhs/pa housing and a 30000dhs for furniture. All controllers working for few years dont even get 90000k for housing, only between 55k and 90k. Each and everyone gets a different allowance. And all the filthy old furniture that were in storage, were given to the older staff as a bonus. They still waiting on the increase that was due in January.

[prowler]

Just be informed that recently a Yank has been told very nicely that, it's most probable that he won't get an offer due to his age.........

Although he was indirectly told this, he was also told that you never know what the future holds......

Perhaps SERCO are already gearing up for the mass exodus in the coming future.....

Oh how ......

INDISPENSABLE........................

[Fox3snapshot]

Perhaps SERCO are already gearing up for the mass exodus in the coming future.....

You really don't have a clue do you prowler

:hmm:

[trailblazer]

Addendum Re the six from the east (Malaysia): Two were ready for validation, two didn't think it was a worthwhile exercise and two would not have validated.

I have a feeling their OJTI's will disagree quite strongly with you on this:=

[Guy D'ageradar]

Verci,

What, no Theakstons today? You're losing your touch!! :p

[Fox3snapshot]

I have a feeling their OJTI's will disagree quite strongly with you on this

Your right mate....I do!

Handing my license in at the start of each shift in a hope of getting it back at the end was the norm, and I supposedly had one of the best ones with 22 years on the job to his name!! :eek:

Personally, I would have scrubbed him end week 2, that would have saved my hair loss and drinking problem setting in (no comments from the cheap seats :E)!!

[trailblazer]

Verci On what information do you base your interesting supposition re the 'six malaysians?'

Fox3Handing my license in at the start of each shift in a hope of getting it back at the end was the norm, and I supposedly had one of the best ones with 22 years on the job to his name!!

Personally, I would have scrubbed him end week 2, that would have saved my hair loss and drinking problem setting in (no comments from the cheap seats )!!

I believe I rest my case, Verci!!
Maybe you were too busy thinking about Theakston's instead of actually paying attention to what was going on at your unit:rolleyes:

[Excan]

Fox, check PM's, thanks

[Quokka]

A no-strip environment... you don't know how lucky you are... :{

[trailblazer]

Verci
The 'six' were the responsibility of the unit training section and I only repeat the information that was given to me at the time. The DG of the time will confirm that he was given this brief as well.
I would suggest that you pursue your case and seek full details either with the then training section or the aforementioned DG.

I appreciate your concern for details, but it seems I have to repeat myself already:

I have a feeling their OJTI's will disagree quite strongly with you on this

I don't really care what the DG or other managers at the time thought, I think the comments from people who actually worked with this group (OJTI's) speak for themselves.

[Tin-Bullet]

@ Fox3snapshot


Quote:
Perhaps SERCO are already gearing up for the mass exodus in the coming future.....
You really don't have a clue do you prowler

http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/yeees.gif


Hei mate, I guess you'd better focus on the experiment from the East, down @ your ACC, as you don't have any idea wats gonna happen up the road, next door!

And I stand to agree on what has been posted, by prowler, & that you'd be surprised on the personnel planning to walk out & away from the pit!

Although we are told that we are sort of 'over-staffed', we will still need to RETAIN personnel from resigning, either goin back home or else......off to ASA.......:D

[trailblazer]

Vercingetorix:
Why no SMS case?


Who knows? Maybe you should direct that question to the manager in charge of operations at the time. He should be able to answer you quite quickly:ok:

[Fox3snapshot]

And I stand to agree on what has been posted, by prowler, & that you'd be surprised on the personnel planning to walk out & away from the pit!

Which unit are you referring to?

Probably best get that cleared up before I restate my position cause it ain't the consensus at mine :rolleyes:

[Red Dragon]

Tin-Bullet,

I assume you are referring to Dubai. Would you like to enlighten us all as to why there are people planning to walk?

RD

[trailblazer]

The ACC is well behind Dubai in either the understanding of, or the implementation, of an ICAO standard Safety Management System

We certainly agree on this point :ok:, time will show if anything will change for the better.

Make mine a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster:\

[Jat Jet]

I think it is enough!!!!!

I sympathise with those not considered for jobs here due to the country they are from. It of course wouldn't happen with big companies like NATS or the FAA... oh hang on my license isn't recognised there so I can't get a job with them.


In FAA/NATS they do not recognise or give opportunity to any foreign national. But the problem with ME is that the opportunities are given to controllers from few selected countries;;; unfortunately by the persons who are from these countries and are in decision making postions. Personally I would not prefer to go to ME . But I certainly wish this monopoly is done away with.
As I said not there fault but to say that the Malaysian experiment was anything other than a complete disaster (that put a lot of OJTIs licenses on the line for no good reason (not to mention the safety of the flying public)) is taking the mickey big time

I think it is unfair to quote case of Malaysian controllers; I know there will be numerous examples of controllers from the selcted countries;;; not reaching the standard. Controllers are good or bad independent of where they come from. I know if you come and handle traffic in India ( I am sure that time will also come) ; you will also struggle to meet the Standard or QRs.

My understanding was that the training section management at the time did not want this experiment to happen but if they protested too much it would be taken as expats just protecting their own fat pay packets, so instead they had to let nature run it's course (which it did).

It is a clear case of internal/international politics;;; you wanted to prove yourselves right.

Hei mate, I guess you'd better focus on the experiment from the East, down @ your ACC, as you don't have any idea wats gonna happen up the road, next door!


Already a sense of insecurity.

worlds best ATCO's don't have a clue what cricket is!

In cricket it takes only one ball to get world's greatest batsman out;; Likewise in ATC it takes only one lapse of concentration to lose your license, however good you have been in your whole career. There are no best/worst controllers; it is an art by which you apply ICAO standards. These standard are same everywhere i.e. 3 or 5 miles in radar are same everywhere. All controllers share same passion and pride in their work.

CHEERS AND GOOD LUCK

[Tin-Bullet]

I assume you are referring to Dubai. Would you like to enlighten us all as to why there are people planning to walk?

There is an 'air of uncertainty' regarding security.....maintaining job position.......If you are 'living it', I'm sure you would agree about this, even though rumours are rumours, but with certain rumours going round in circles that either a 'paycut', 'overstaffing', & being told that we are 'indispensable', certainly is not what we are asking for! Some of our mates leaving, is because they are fed up of it all here, & wana go back home, besides others, who are seeking greener pastures......

And after being told 'verbally' that our allowances or salary should be reviewed, at least to reflect the inflation, & now not even a Dirham, then you wonder why, why certain personnel are exploring other options, especially South-East bound....


Hei mate, I guess you'd better focus on the experiment from the East, down @ your ACC, as you don't have any idea wats gonna happen up the road, next door!

+

Already a sense of insecurity.



That reply meant no offense to the famous 6 down at UAE ACC, it was only not to confuse what's happening in UAE ACC & Dubai APP! Excuse me, if you thought it was an offense!

[Red Dragon]

Tin-Bullet,

Rumours will always do the rounds, particularly at times like these. But a little common sense always helps to see the true picture. I am, as you say, 'living it' but am sure that anyone working for Serco shouldn't be worrying about their future in Dubai. It will only be those within the organisation (outside of Serco)that have been deemed 'surplus to requirement' that may be subject to a redeployment. There may be a bit of fat in the system but that will play an important role when the time comes to move down the road.

As for people getting fed up and moving to greener pastures, that will always happen. Always has. However in these post payrise times any move anywhere will certainly mean a considerable paycut. Of course being in Dubai is a lifestyle choice and some come here for a limited time, but considering the pay here now, justifying moving on or going home is a much tougher decision.

Gut feeling - no payrise (or cut) or increase in allowances and no layoffs.

:ok:

RD

[divingduck]

I was wondering why only UAE was being denigrated for the Malaysian fiasco, Muscat also tried Sri Lanka and the Phillipines and that was an unmitigated disaster.
It was not through lack of training or OJTI efforts that they didn't make the grade. I had the dubious pleasure of watching one of the guys in the sim bang just about every aircraft into each other without fear or favour. Once he was allowed onto live traffic (a travesty all in itself) he then attempted at regular intervals to do the same thing again! He was apparently very good where he came from, he was just hopeless in Muscat. that was I believe the case with the guys from Malaysia.

[Fox3snapshot]

Endorsing and confirming DD's experiences, the whole 'experiment' was a fiasco.

The saddest thing was that the individuals concerned were typically innocent parties, nice enough fellah's and capable in their own environment.

The spanners that decided to run the program however need to be isolated here as the catalyst to an embarrassing, time wasting and money consuming exercise :ouch:

Needless to say I am sure we have not learned our lessons and we will at some point go down that road again :suspect:

P.S RD...thanks once again for your constructive perspective on things, unfortunately it will be lost on some (no names will be mentioned!) :ok:

[The Jolly Roger]

Yeah....I believe even recently they even tried it with a couple of Irish guys......:eek:

[Thridle Op Des]

May I venture a query as to the reason for high holding at DESDI? I have had two experiences now, firstly 4 years ago just after the BAH F1 Grand Prix, we were cleared into DESDI hold at FL280 and then given a descent clearance to Alt 10,000 on the first outbound leg. Last week we were cleared into DESDI hold at FL390 with a descent to FL330 about 5 miles out from the hold. Subsequently cleared to FL250 and lower with several radio encouragements to increase our ROD, admittedly a large CB was affecting the controllers scope to manoeuver. I also know from reading these pages that there are several factors outside the ATCO's control which limit tactical controlling and it appears that the situation will not improve soon, but I would genuinely be interested in some feedback for these profiles. We did out best to limit our speed, but we cannot put flap out in the 330 until 20,000' and at a TAS of 420 KIAS we cover a huge amount of territory, I was concerned at one stage that we would set off the Iranians on 'guard'.

Best Regards

TOD

[BlueSkye]

I'll do my limited best. You don't have to worry about the Iranians, it is our job to inform them that you might stray into their backyard. And they usually don't mind.

The increase in the rate of descent is to ensure you keep your spot in the stack and to make space for all the others approaching to take up the hold. If for example you are number 5 and already established in the hold at FL290, and other traffic approaches the hold at FL250, it may end up that he becomes number 5 and you, well, number 6. From the cockpit point of view it is good to stay high in the hold and conserve juice, but the higher you stay the more chances of somebody sneaking in below you. There is NO way to avoid this, as the dynamics and layout of the airspace dictates that this will occur. The best option would be to get as low as possible as soon as possible. The flipside of the above mentioned also happens. Because of the positioning and spread of traffic flying around its own arse at DESDI, you may go from #4 to #1. Then it would help to be low.

The unrestricted descent from FL280 to A100 is very situation specific and I cannot comment intelligently on it.

Start rant. Slightly off topic. If you are inbound to DESDI or BUBIN, don't for a second think that because you are presently in front of say Birdseed69, that you are going to stay in front. A lot of times the situation dictates that numbers 1, 2 and 4 run through but number 3 gets a hold to change places with number 4. This event is dictated by the DXB APP spacing requirements, there is nothing you can do about it and the best is to accept it and keep quiet. And don't play the "you are victimising us" card. The law of averages say that it will happen to EK more than the rest, for obvious reasons. And for Air Arabia: The correct readback to "route DESDI and hold" is "ABY123, route DESDI and hold", NOT "confirm hold, but we are inbound for Sharjah, are you sure?".Rant over.

Sorry for the VLP Thridle, but unfortunately their are so many factors that come into play that a short answer is a bit difficult.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

And for Air Arabia: The correct readback to "route DESDI and hold" is "ABY123, route DESDI and hold", NOT "confirm hold, but we are inbound for Sharjah, are you sure?

I only had to hold once at DESDI, and that was inbound to RAK, and I had the same exchange. Normally we drift north of DESDI, and then direct to RAK.

My thanks to all the controllers in UAE DXB etc, for the excellent service they provide the small fry, Thanks.

glf

[Fox3snapshot]

Cheers Gulfstream :ok: appreciate the feedback....

Truth is with the levels of traffic we are witnessing now in this region and in in the case of UAE, the days of ol have gone where we could always get the OMSJ or other UAE bound traffic in without delay. It has become far to hazardous on occasions to run them through or north of the stacks so they have to join the queue to ensure a safe arrival flow.

I don't think some of the operators in this region have the big picture when it comes to the capacity problems being faced in the ATC environment. The restrictions and shortfalls are often not the line controllers doing and they do the best they can with a bad situation.

With the unprecedented growth this region has experienced and with very little prior planning by the authorities to accommodate the growth, the reality is we are over extended and constantly trying to play catchup.

As horrible as it is to say (as unfortunately the welfare and careers of many have been affected) the economic downturn could be our saving grace to try and get on top of this whole palaver!! :sad:

[Scooby Don't]

Gulfstreamaviator is always a pleasure to have on the frequency. :ok:

[Khaosai]

Hi,

just a heads up. Optimum altitude for holding in the B777 is approx 20,000ft. However there is not a huge amount of difference in fuel burn whilst in a holding pattern between 1500 ft and 35,000ft, only a few hundred kilos.

A heavy B773 will be minimum clean at approx 230 kts. Once we start configuring we reduce speed by 20 kts for each flap setting, i.e flap 1 210kts, flap 5 190 kts. We can then reduce to flap 15/20 and fly approx minimum 170 kts. These speeds obviously vary with aircraft weight. If you request 160 kts then we would need to lower the gear and select flap 25/30.

In EK we have to have landing flap selected by 1500 ft AGL, so 170 kts to 5 nm would work.

For Dubai, give us a dedicated delivery frequency and an approx start up time when busy. That way we can give the pax some good info on delays.

I am sure these things have all been discussed before, but i thought i would mention them again.

Other than that keep up the good work.

Rgds.

[Tower Ranger]

The Delivery Frequency is 120.35 and if you are delayed just ask us your number in the queue and we`ll give you our best guess. It is usually first come first served although your Company has decided some EK flights are to have priority over others. However there are some other factors that may mean that you get a different start sequence, your SID, your stand, current Flow Control restrictions and recently the weather!
There is no point calling back every 5 mins to check for an update and even less point in trying to jump the queue by changing over to Ground yourself cos you`ll just get put back to Delivery and use up more RT time.

[LLinCalifornia]

I am anticipating an offer from SERCO soon. I am retired FAA, been out and relaxing for 2 1/2 years. Does Sharjah really require a 3 year contract? What is the penalty if a person leaves early. I was hoping to to 1 or 2 years. Seems pay is about 200K USD per year plus hosing, is that accurate?

Thanks

LL

[TheFalcon]

Heyy LL where did you get 200K from? You nearly made me fall of my chair with laughter especially when you mentioned plus housing!

NOONE earns that much as an operational controller here in the middle east let alone Sharjah. At best you can expect little over half of that from which you have to pay to live in some crappy accommodation.You pay a penalty for staying less generally having to pay back some of the expenses and training.

By the way have you seen your prospective workplace lately? Are you sure you want to come out of retirement for that ??????

Your call don't let me frighten you I'm sure you will enjoy it there. :oh:

[LLinCalifornia]

Thanks for your reply. To be honest I do not want to leave home.

[black hawk down]

Boys&Girls good luck with the coming WX all week,they say its gonna be bad.
OMFJ no worries,your block start is always cancelled like 23 h in 24 h:ok:

[approach control]

Don't give bad reputation for OMFJ, we are preety much open, and the weather is the best in the region, you can bet on it!
Good luck with your WX, we'll think twice weather to accept divergions, but you are free to make a call.

[The Jolly Roger]

If your an autocamel driver, take my advise and ring in sick!!!! It couldn't have been comfortable...if your a controller...enjoy the days off and have a beer!!!!!:ok:

[divingduck]

Lovely in Shannon today, spring has sprung, birds singing etc etc.

Haven't seen an aircraft divert around weather since arriving:ok:

[approach control]

Sorry guys,
Our apron is full for tonight, no divergions, please.
We have to wait our sheikh to build another apron, soooooon, inshalah.

[The Jolly Roger]

DivingDuck.....They just fly into the damn weather there and be done with it.....!!!!!!! The only thing thats sprung anything here is the sky.....one big leak!!! At least I can keep wearin me shorts here when it rains!!:cool:

[Itswindyout]

Passed over last night, FL410, lived there for 2 years, great place, but moved on to DXB.

With the rain in DXB last few days, only the temperatuee gave away the location.

[michael ATC]

Hi! A few questions to Dubai Community.
-Does anybody know about; ATNSPs, working conditions, package,
housing allowance, insurance etc at Ras Al Khail and Al Ain?
I"m sorry for troubling once again but I got failure looking for info
in the Net.

Any info please

Regard Michael.:confused:

[Yoman]

Hi everybody.

I may be soon in the UAE.

Is anybody willing to list 5 (may be more) positive and 5 negative things about life in the UAE?
If you also want to comment on the workplace it is OK:}


Goody.

[The Jolly Roger]

POS

The pay is good
The weather is good

NEG

They drive too fast :ouch:
You'll drive too fast :ouch:
The beer gets warm if you don't drink it quick enough......no problem there then!!! :yuk:
RULE3 says they need Flow Control...everyone agrees :ugh:

I'm sure I or someone else will cough up another one!!!!

Now back to the beach....sorry....work :cool:

[Yoman]

Hey Jolly Roger

Thanks for your input.

I will think hard to find a way to solve the beer problem you mention;)

[Fox3snapshot]

Some interesting reading...

The dark side of Dubai - Middle East, World News - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1705098.html) :ooh:

[Bongodingo]

Yes Fox, very interesting indeed...
Great article.
Scary though.

:ouch:

[Yoman]

Just read the article.
Are the waters really that bad, can´t you go for a swim?
The rest of the article I have seen before and it is a disgrace.

Cheers.

[Canoehead]

No, that article is a pos, period.

[Fox3snapshot]

Yoman...

Are the waters really that bad, can´t you go for a swim?

Unfortunately yes mate, the raw sewerage was being dumped directly into areas adjacent to popular beaches and recreation areas.

The likes of the Dubai Offshore Sailing Club etc. where orange cones went out no swimming signs put up. They are bringing in the blue flag system up there I believe where water quality will be tested and the appropriate flag displayed to advise if safe or not. :suspect:

[The Jolly Roger]

Ah...I knew there'd be a reason I don't like to swim with the fishes!!!! And it wasn't cause one looked at me with his THREE beady little eyes!!!! :}

[Yoman]

Canoehead, does that mean that the article is a crap??

English is not my first language so I am not familiar with the word/phrase/slang of something being a ,,pos".


Have a good weekend, in or out of the sea.

[RustyNail]

Yoman, I'm not sure what a 'pos' is as well,

but from my time in the ME, the article is spot-on :sad:

[Nimmer]

I agree, spent 3 and half years in Dubai, had a cracking time, however that article was the best thing I have ever read on Dubai.

I didn't find anything I could disagree with, plus the attitude of the Brits in Double Deckers, reminded me of myself so much when I was out there!!! Sad really.

[Yoman]

So now when ,,you dive in the clear-blue waters of the Persian Gulf" your tanning comes ,,naturally":rolleyes:

What a crap.

[divingduck]

If you want clear blue waters drive over to Fuje and Khor Fakkan. They are on the Indian Ocean coast and have plenty of blue water.
From Scabby Dabby it's a 305km drive, each way.... (done it many a time).
on the west coast??? Only go in the water if i got paid for it.

[Tower Ranger]

Wasn`t the East Coast the part worst effected by the "Red Tide". Maybe Dubai just pumped the crap into the water as they didn`t want to be left behind in the " can`t swim here stakes ".

Darn, i thought this was Jet Blast. Oh well I`ll just click post anyway!

[salsaboy]

Just a quick question... are there any female controllers out there with you?

Just for planning purposes.. wanna see if we can both get a job out there. I heard that women in good jobs isn't the 'done thing' or is that rumour a bit old?!

Cheers.

[Scooby Don't]

At least 10 female controllers in Dubai (one a local), 2 or 3 in Sharjah, one in Fujairah....

[ATCO1962]

And four females in Muscat; two expat and two local, with more almost rated. Bring 'em on!

[ponti6]

As an experienced ATC I understand the work requirements, but we really need to get our head around the whole living in Abu Dhabi before accepting a contract.
Could someone who is overthere please give a realistic picture of the life outside work for my wife and I.

1. rental costs 150,000 enough for decent accommodation for 2?
2. renting / purchasing vechiles nothing flash but good and safe?
3. cost of internet, phone, mobile etc.. (calling Australia)
4. Best place in Abu Dhabi for accommodation with reference to the new centre - villa preference!
5. Triathlon Clubs???
6. Olympic size pools for swimming training?
7. what to bring/not to bring - will be sourcing own accommodation.

thanks in advance. PM if you would prefer.

[Scooby Don't]

Can't help with the AD specific questions but....

Cars - loans of up to 250,000 dirhams are generally available. That would get you something both good AND flash. There's a wide choice and no sales tax. Some brands are cheaper in the UAE than elsewhere, but prices are fashion-dependent. Thus, BMWs are expensive compared with the USA, yet American Fords and Australian GMs are relatively good value. Check out Drive Arabia - Dubai Live - UAE, Saudi, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and GCC (http://www.drivearabia.com/) for prices and some road tests.
Be aware that insurance rates are doubled for anything with 2 doors, and bring some evidence of no-claims discount/bonus from your previous insurer.
Many people end up with SUVs even if they don't intend to drive in the desert, partly for reasons of fashion and often because of the perceived safety of driving a tank among drivers of questionable judgement and talent.

Phones/net - not sure about costs of phoning Australia. However, many people break the law and use Skype to phone overseas. Skype cannot be downloaded in the UAE or used to phone a landline from the UAE without a VPN, and UAE credit cards cannot be used to buy Skype credit (so I'm told...). Our complete package of TV (movies but not sports channels), 2Mb internet and home phone costs about 800 dirhams a month, not including the cost of long distance and international calls.

Bring/don't bring - the electricity supply is 220V/50Hz. Generally, it's not worth bringing appliances unless you're really attached to them. My other half's Kitchenaid food mixer came with us, and we run it through a transformer. Transformers are cheap and plentiful, but possibly not the best thing for really pricey electronics. Multi-region DVD players are available here (as are pirated DVDs...), and TVs are similar to US prices. If you have expensive stereo equipment, it might be worth bringing as the more esoteric makers aren't sold here, or are sold here at a premium.
Other household items, beds, furniture, etc, really depend on whether you're attached enough to them to pay the shipping costs. The fact that you may have to wait three months for a shipment tends to force you into buying furniture here anyway.

Have a look at BetterHomes (http://www.betterhomes.com) for villas and flats. Rental costs in Dubai have decreased markedly in the downturn, though I'm not sure the same if true of Abu Dhabi which was more expensive to begin with.

[ponti6]

thanks for the info, if anyone else wants to add anything????

Otherwise I will see you all later in the year.

Thanks!

[The Jolly Roger]

Just a couple of points:

Buying a car is cheap and easy. Banks are good to give loans to anyone with a good income. Particularly if you use the bank for salary transfers that your intending to get the loan from. As an example: I bought a Lexus IS300 for 148,000Dhs. Same type of car at home (without all the bells and whistles), 3 times the price. Running the car and maintenance are very cheap. Don't fall into the trap of going for a 4WD "JUST BECAUSE". If your living in Abu Dhabi, finding a space big enough to put it is a mission in itself......in fact finding any sort of parking space in Abu Dhabi is a mission!!! Rental prices are a joke....you won't find a 2 bed for 150,000Dhs per year. More like 250k plus!!! Not joking!!! The ass is falling out of the Dubai market rapidly. Both rents and purchase prices are falling at an enourmous rate. Particularly on apartments as there is quite a lot out there. Villas are falling too, but not at the same rate and depending on where they are situated. Prices may bottom out at the end of the year, but we'll have to wait till after the new school term starts after the summer holidays to see if anyone actually comes back!!!!

Mobile useage is relatively chaep...two providers, DU and Etisalat...similar pricing. I top up my Etisalat about every 2-3 weeks with 100Dhs....you'd be surprised how much you get....Internet is little more, but affordable on your salary!!!!!! The debate whether or not SKYPE is illegal, is ongoing. Basically, Etisalat are saying in order to make calls, Skype need a telecommunications licence in the UAE. Basically, if you have a proxy or VPN, its the best way to make calls by buying some skype credit. Cheap as chips!!!

Anyways, hope this helps......:cool:

[The Jolly Roger]

I must have my eye off the ball living in Dubayaa!! I agree with ANSA on the rent issue. Its getting more and more affordable to buy your own place here rather than pay rent. At least at the end of your tenure you'll have something to show for your "accommodation allowance" :ok:

[ponti6]

Thanks for the info, look forward to joining you all later in the year.....suppose I better stock up on thermal wear.......

[Scooby Don't]

Don't buy a Lexus IS300 "just because". You'll look like an accountant. :}

[The Jolly Roger]

If the windows are blacked out, who cares what ya look like!!! :}

[Scooby Don't]

Any update on the property website, by the way. It should be Dubai Property Real Estate ? Rent, buy or Sale Properties in Dubai, UAE Apartments and Villas with Better Homes. Manage or Invest in Dubai Property with us. (http://www.bhomes.com) and remember there are plenty of other agents in Dubai. There are listings on the Gulf News website and Dubai Property for Sale and Rent, Jobs in Dubai, Dubai Classifieds (http://www.dubizzle.com) too.

[ponti6]

Thanks for all the info, looks like buying is the way to go if you can afford it, is the process of obtaining a bank loan over there difficult, how much are they looking at for a deposit, can you use your accommodation advance as the deposit?

hopefully the prices will stay low till the end of the year.

[Yoman]

Hello Vercingetorix and all the others of course.

I am now through most of the 256 postings in this forum/thread.
I am really looking forward to meeting this Theakstone Old Peculiar.
He must be a fun guy to live with;)
I just wonder if this Theakstone fellow still has his ratings or if he is retired;)


Cheers.

[TheFalcon]

Nobody as yet has mentioned:

1) You got to jail for defaulting on your loan (ie: if you lose your job!).You are also stuck here.
2) The property market is still on a downward spiral.
3) The mortgage rates are generally high and change without notice.
4) Maintenance fees are high and change without notice.
5) Construction standards are at best awful.
6) Contracts are not worth the paper they are written on. The seller changes the conditions at whim.
7) Some properties have an eternal clause where you have to pay the original developer a percentage each time the property is sold.

This is a pessimistic view I know but so many horror stories have been coming out that its funny noone mentioned anything yet. Buy if you like but caveat emptor!!

[Funk]

There's some risky stuff I have done here in the UAE; motorcycle racing, mountainbiking, eating Bateen canteen sandwiches, road cycling and up until 18 months ago other nocturnal dalliances.... but you won't catch me buying property :}

[Vercingetorix]

Yoman
Yup, still got them as in:
ADC
APP (radar & Procedural)
Area (Radar & Procedural)
OJTI
ATSI
ATC Examiner
Rating Examiner
Inspector of ATS
Incident Reporting and Investigation
ICAO Safety Management Systems
European Academy For Aviation Safety JAR Ops 1
but now do consultancy.
N.B. Ratings are for life, validations are for a limited period

TheFalcon's points 1 - 7 are worth bearing in mind.

If you meet Theakstones you'll have a memorable (or perhaps not if you stay in the meeting too long!) experience.

Cheers:ok:

[Yoman]

Vercingetorix,

seems like you are an ATC nerd;)
I am glad you have mister Theakstone to ease your burden:hmm:


Cheers

[Vercingetorix]

Yoman
:uhoh: nerd implies interest.
The object of the exercise is that I work to live, not live to work.
That lot is just the detritus gathered in my ATC life.
Now I live a lot and work as and when it suits:cool:

Cheers & I'll have one for you:ok:

To infinity and beyond and, hopefully, back in time for that pint of Theakstones Old Peculiar.

[mafric2005]

Hi
do any one have info about if the UAE ACC have a job opening now

thanks

[JonnyCash]

Catastrophic results.Mr. Magoo - Ugly Men - Funny Males (http://www.grimmemennesker.dk/ugly-people-153.htm)

[tow-bar]

I just wanted to ask. Who knows, what is going on in Emirates Aviation College? I heard, that they have closed the ATC department. Who knows the reasons?

[Yoman]

Hello all.

Now that it seems feasible to buy instead of renting house/flats in the UAE do you have any good advice when doing business with the real estate dealers or developers/contractors?
Any one badly "burnt" :eek:
Is it expensive to run properties, f.ex. property taxes, insurance, water, electricity etc.?
Is it maybe something one should avoid at all costs?
All information much appreciated.

Cheerio.

[Neptune262]

"Tow-bar
I just wanted to ask. Who knows, what is going on in Emirates Aviation College? I heard, that they have closed the ATC department. Who knows the reasons?"

Unfortunately yes the ATC college at Emirates has closed. It is a shame as they were just starting to get going properly with a decent instructor. A few things happened which helped those high up to make the decision, but ultimately it was linked to the credit crunch and emirates cutting back on expenditure.

[prowler]

Rumours are SERCO have finally signed the much awaited contract, which was extended from 31st Dec 2008...up to 31st May 2009.....

Payrise has been mentioned........ but don't hold your breath, if one thinks it will reflect the inflation!

New office management re-shuffle.....

Uncle E retiring, & 'snakes & ladders' the order of the day, in the office.....

Jebel Ali personnel.......?????

New SUP too in new position......

What else??? unpaid leave?

[Canoehead]

We have no grass...

[Fox3snapshot]

Based on the other thread you started Canoehead, any grass we did have I think you smoked! :ooh:

[rogerthis]

Good to see you back dude. How was Monaco, up to your expectations I trust.:)
From his posts, I think mushrooms and grass are nowhere near strong enough for canoehead.

[Canoehead]

Foxy, I was simply finishing a thread originally titled GUAE-ACC which (I suppose), the moderators have deleted.
It involved an epic battle between a Gaul (masquerading as a Brit), a bunch of Afrikaners, and a not so great Dane. It was getting quite nasty, actually...

And as for the grass, I say again, we have none. I think...:)

[Fox3snapshot]

Oooooooh....now I understand, I think! :p

Yip back again Roj, Monaco was quite a distraction as you would expect :E

[Tin-Bullet]

hei Yahoo

We've lost another half dozen from Heathrow this month to the middle east; i'm starting to wonder whether the grass is in fact greener


Presently the grass is definitely NOT greener.......

With the so called increase of 3% for line crews & 5% for Senior Officers & +, it definitely does NOT reflect on the Inflation......

& to DWC Staff, it's definitely just sand & NO grass!!

At least we got a long contract signed for a good couple of years!!

[Tower Ranger]

I completely agree with Yellow`s sentiments. Dubai is not only somewhere that you can live a lifestyle not possible in Uk but also surprisingly easy to get by on a tight budget if you have to.

One thing that I would add to the above is and for me one of the biggest reasons to recommend the place is simply the quality and experience of the controllers that I work with as in that respect it is an outstanding unit.

The grass is so green that my maid has trouble getting it off my golf shoes!!