Ultimate Controlled Airspace Infringement

[timzsta]

From the little white book that comes along with the GASIL, 19 May - 03 Aug Edition. Page 24

Piper PA 46 Malibu 13 Jul 08.

"Infringement of the LTMA, Heathrow Zone, Stansted Zone, and Farnborough Zone by a PA46 at 2000ft. Traffic info and avoiding action given. Separation lost. Departures were stopped at Heathrow, four a/c were broken off approach, one a/c was sent around. At Stansted one a/c was sent around and one a/c's take off aborted. Appropriate CAA action is being taken as a result of this incident".

I read it in stunned amazement.

[Jimmy Macintosh]

:ooh: Absolutely stunned.

[dublinpilot]

What are you so stunned at?

That a Malibu pilot would make a mistake like the rest of us?
That a Malibu would be going off airways, and having to do their own navigation?
That the infringment could cause so much trouble?
That they are being prosecuted?

I'm not critising you, just simply wondering which part of the story you are stunned at.

[ShyTorque]

That a Malibu pilot would make a mistake like the rest of us?


There's mistakes, and there's MISTAKES!

Like the rest of us? Speak for yourself ;) How many of the "rest of us" made a little MISTAKE! like this?

[IO540]

None of this is in any way remarkable. Obviously he didn't know about the controlled airspace.

The bit I would like to know is the pilot's history, training, etc.

[timzsta]

I minor incursion into a CTR can occur to the best of us. To infringe two CTR's the LTMA and an ATZ in one flight.....

[S-Works]

I minor incursion into a CTR can occur to the best of us. To infringe two CTR's the LTMA and an ATZ in one flight.....

Is certainly some doing!

And it was not me......

[rauxaman]

I suppose that if you are going to make a b**lls up you might as well as do it in style... obviously just missed Gatwick... could have got the BAA triple there!

[flightlevel1985]

Shocking...

[bjornhall]

None of this is in any way remarkable. Obviously he didn't know about the controlled airspace.

When the controlled airspace in question is what it was in this case, I think not knowing about it is a tad remarkable-ish after all...

[BRL]

I wonder what his excuse was.

I have seen first hand what is involved in such a situation. Watched over the shoulder of the Luton controller duiring the last visit to LATC when someone came straight down from Cranfield. Turned back just before the approach to Luton. Caused a lot of grief all around. Amazing how it affected flights miles away from him.

To do this on such a scale is something else and must have cost a few quid in delays I expect.

[Pace]

To cause a problem at one airport by an infringement you can understand, but to cause infringements and diversions at three smacks of more.
Ie more on suspected security issues than infringements.

Maybe the guy lost it big time enough to worry the controllers that there was more to him than a simple infringement and getting it wrong?

But heathrow, Stanstead and Farnborough? I can understand heathrow Farnborough which are on each others doorstep but Stanstead??? what was he on a blind tour of London airports?

Pace

[dublinpilot]

Or perhaps he wasn't using his gps today, and was following dr, and did infact know about the controlled airspace, and was carefully avoiding it, but in fact thought he was somewhere else than where he actually was?

You might think it's hard to make multiple airspace busts, but if you think you are somewhere else other than where you are, then I suspect it's quite easy.

I would expect that the London based controllors see this on a fairly regular occasion.

[Fuji Abound]

Well done this man.

If you are going to do it, do it properly!!

In any event, probably a yank, they dont understand our airspace, hey what the hell, you call that an airport (Stansted) I've got a bigger airport than that in my back yard. What you mean, you got THREE of these things all within 40 miles of each other - have you fellas never heard of freeways.

[Pace]

Fuji

No ive worked it out all to do with the Swiss Hadron Collider. Mini Black holes.
The Guy bounced through one and ended up at Stanstead then another into Farnborough and finally another into Heathrow. ;)

Do the Swiss know the problems they have unleashed ?

Pace

[scooter boy]

It really looks like the Malibu pilot was somewhat overhorsed....during his marathon airspace infringement session. I wonder exactly what "approporiate CAA action" is being taken?

My personal favourite from the white booklet is the barnstorming stampe pilot on p27 who carried out a loop the loop at Gloucester during an overhead join, do you think he misinterpreted ATC's instructions? What's the betting a handlebar moustache was involved?

SB

[IO540]

Maybe he was trying to see how many busts he could do before his engine packed up. This model does have a bit of a history on that front.

[scooter boy]

"Maybe he was trying to see how many busts he could do before his engine packed up. This model does have a bit of a history on that front".

... or before a wing fell off... some history there as well

SB

[mm_flynn]

Slightly more serous answer -

I looked at the details of an incident several years ago involving multiple infringements of TMA and CTZ airspace. It was a European pilot (not a Yank) who had filed an IFR plan and when picking up his clearance received a message like ' you can't fly that route IFR ' - So he didn't...

He said 'no problems I will depart VFR', which he did.

.... and then flew his original route 'VFR'!!!:eek:

[Fuji Abound]

Maybe he was trying to see how many busts he could do before his engine packed up. This model does have a bit of a history on that front".

... or before a wing fell off... some history there as well

Are they that bad?

Does the Meridian have the same wing design?

[gasax]

AFAIK there have been 12 in-flight break-ups (some sources state only 7). Of the first couple of hundred airframes there was a mass recall to sort out engine issues. The Meridian is New Piper's version of the Jetprop conversion so highly likely the wing structure is the same.

[LH2]

I suppose that if you are going to make a b**lls up you might as well as do it in style...

No point in getting busted for something minor :ok:

obviously just missed Gatwick...

Ah, that wouldn't have happened had he been carrying a GPS:}

...and yes, I know where my coat is, thank you

[Keygrip]

To be fair to Piper - I'm led to believe that the subsequent board(s) of investigation found that the wing problem was actually an instrument flying training problem. Not the aircraft.

Seems that this *single engine, piston* aircraft was bought and flown by numerous, relatively wealthy, pilots who lacked the experience of the performance of this aircraft type.

It was often their first encounter with cloud entry - despite holding a full instrument rating.

The combination of factors led to spatial disorientation, followed by an uncommanded high rate of descent. As the aircraft fell out of the cloud and the pilot regained visual references, their control inputs to attempt to get the aircraft back to straight and level flight resulted in overstressing the aircraft, snapping of the main spar, and the detachment of the wing(s) - which didn't help with the unusual attitude recovery.

[S-Works]

The new meridians have a different wing to the mirage and the mirage has a different wing to the early Malibu.

There have been a few engine failures in the early versions due to mishandling. The original engine had to be run LOP and pilots not comfortable with the process ran at peak or ROP. This caused no end of problems with CHT's and pressures etc.

When the engine was changed to one that would one LOP or ROP then problem disappeared and the reliability was not different from similar types. In fact compare something like a TB20 and a Malibu for failures.....

But what would I know I only fly the Piper.

[Fuji Abound]

I thought the TB20 had a pretty good record?

[ShyTorque]

If only he had used 121.5 and obtained assistance.....

Perhaps he did try and the stroppy airline pilots' "keep off my guard" club scared him off it again......

[S-Works]

I thought the TB20 had a pretty good record?

It does and so does the Malibu/Mirage/Meridian series.

You can't design out pilot error. Or it seems the green eyed monster...... :p

[Fuji Abound]

This forum needs a bit of Shakespeare.

[IO540]

There is only one known TB20/21 in-flight breakup (TB21 PH-UBG in 2001, in an embedded thunderstorm) which is pretty unique in GA, for ~ 2000 built over ~ 20 years. I seriously doubt there is another GA type which approaches this standard even by an order of magnitude.

AFAIK there have been 12 in-flight break-ups (some sources state only 7). Of the first couple of hundred airframes there was a mass recall to sort out engine issues. The Meridian is New Piper's version of the Jetprop conversion so highly likely the wing structure is the same.

The history of the airframe design is non-trivial. A friend has just bought a Jetprop (a PT6 turboprop conversion of a Malibu Mirage) and done an extensive due diligence on it. Different strenghtening mods were done by Piper at different points. I looked at the piston Mirage briefly and got two opposing versions of the engine story.

As regards breaking them, well it's not built like a tank which the TB20 is with its massive machined spar. It is built like a PA28. It's slippery and if you fly it at Vne into a CB the wings will just break right off - just as they would with a PA28 and most other types :)

Back to the topic, I think the reason for something like this has to be some mega cockup (well you could say this is self evident) along the lines of somebody, just perhaps, being on an IFR clearance and being dumped out of CAS near/in the LTMA, and being - entirely legitimately - without VFR charts or any notion of where CAS lies, and together with some confusion.......... ??

Tell you what you can try. Pick the next 747 heading for LHR from Orlando, and somewhere over Bristol ask it to descend out of controlled airspace and proceed VFR, then sit back and see what happens. Of course the crew will have UK VFR charts, and will duly continue to Manston at 2400ft on the correct QNH :) :)

Not saying this is what happened here but in the right set of circumstances, with all the holes in the cheese lining up, it would be easy to do.

The more obvious explanation is that the pilot was a complete muppet. There are plenty of muppets with PPLs but relatively very few of them will get their hands on a Mirage (which in the UK needs a type rating, and in FAA land needs type specific training to get even insured).

[Roffa]

If you're flying IFR in to somewhere like Elstree, Denham, Stapleford etc you have to descend out of CAS at some point and as you're going to an airfield with no IFR approach procedure I imagine it might make sense to have a VFR chart with you in such circumstances...

[mm_flynn]

Or you could be going to Shoreham or Biggin or Farnborough, etc. and being Johnny foreigner expect to fly the same type of IFR you do at home - and be armed with your LO-x charts and book of approach plates, but lacking in UK VFR chart.

[IO540]

If you're flying IFR in to somewhere like Elstree, Denham, Stapleford etc you have to descend out of CAS at some point and as you're going to an airfield with no IFR approach procedure I imagine it might make sense to have a VFR chart with you in such circumstances...Yes I agree and any UK based pilot with more than 2 braincells should know that.

But (and this is a pretty wide topic to do with different ATC practices around the world) outside the UK and its informal "non-radio IFR in Class G and loads of Class G" environment there is a general expectation that on an IFR flight you will proceed IFR all the way to the end, so you sort out a VFR approach chart for the destination (you are not going to find an IFR chart for Elstree - other than that unpublished IAP ;) - anyway so the VFR plates is all you will get) and off you go.

That is how it works in the USA, to a large degree. You can be in Class E (CAS for IFR) all the way to the last 1200ft.

Also, if filing a Eurocontrol FP to a UK VFR-only destination, you can file "I" to it (try it, it always works). Eurocontrol chucks this out for some countries - presumably those which prohibit IFR OCAS, or it could just be that those countries have specifically requested that Eurocontrol rejects "I" flight plans to/from a list of such airports. Z or Y has to be used for those, but you select (and file) the waypoint at which the IFR to VFR transition happens and you are entitled to remain IFR till that waypoint.

But this principle is operated very loosely in the UK.

So, going say from LTFJ in Turkey to Welshpool EGCW, you can file "I" expecting to be under ATC direction all the way to RETSI or NITON, but London Control could well ask you to descend out of CAS at DVR or LYD! Leving you to hack your way at 2400ft for ~ 150nm, and actually the MSA is a lot more than that later on. While you are entitled to refuse that, a large % of pilots will blindly do what ATC tells them. I am not blaming ATC for this incident - I haven't got a clue what caused it - but imagine this happening to a foreign pilot who probably cannot even buy the CAA chart in Turkey and the best he will have is Jeppview with its rather bare VFR charts, or the equally poor Jeppesen GPS moving map CAS representation, plus an expectation to not fly VFR anyway. It would be fine for me and most other reasonably seasoned UK Class G hackers but it would royally screw up the foreigner.

[Final 3 Greens]

Or you could be an (ill informed about UK) FAA licensed pilot who thinks that ackowledgement of a call, in cluding call sign, is permission to enter CAS.

[IO540]

Or you could be an (ill informed about UK) FAA licensed pilot who thinks that ackowledgement of a call, in cluding call sign, is permission to enter CAS.Possible but that would be really stupid. And if this pilot really was doing that, he would be in two-way contact with ATC (as per U.S. rules) and the said ATC would probably tell him to get out of there. Even if the said ATC was say Elstree, I am sure Elstree will get a phone call from LC pretty damn fast if this kind of thing develops. After all, LC will know the filed destination, and will have transferred him to its frequency.

Also not relevant to the IFR-flight scenario because CAS/OCAS doesn't apply there.

[Roffa]

IO,

So, going say from LTFJ in Turkey to Welshpool EGCW, you can file "I" expecting to be under ATC direction all the way to RETSI or NITON, but London Control could well ask you to descend out of CAS at DVR or LYD! Leving you to hack your way at 2400ft for ~ 150nm, and actually the MSA is a lot more than that later on. While you are entitled to refuse that, a large % of pilots will blindly do what ATC tells them.

Could you give me an actual example of someone coming from the south going to an airfield in Wales getting dumped out of CAS at DVR or LYD or are you exaggerating just a little?

[eharding]

This forum needs a bit of Shakespeare.


..that he that hath no stomach to this flight, let him depart.

His passport shall be made, and crowns for convoy put into his purse.

We would not fly in that man's company, who fears his fellowship to fly with us.

[podgyflyer]

My personal favourite from the white booklet is the barnstorming stampe pilot on p27 who carried out a loop the loop at Gloucester during an overhead join, do you think he misinterpreted ATC's instructions?

I don't think he did anything wrong. You see, ATC asked him to make an orbit for separation and he did... just in the vertical plane.

[BackPacker]

I don't think he did anything wrong.

Technically speaking, I think he did. We're talking about a controlled field ("ATC asked him...") so presumably controlled airspace (although I can't place the OHJ in that case though).

Aerobatics are forbidden in controlled airspace unless specific permission has been granted. "One 360 for separation" is not specific enough, I think.

But it is tempting sometimes. How about making a snap roll when ATC asks you "one 360 over left, report back on downwind"?

[Fuji Abound]

eHarding

Beautiful.

I had in mind the original reference to jealousy:

O, beware, my lord, of jealousy;
It is the green-eyed monster which doth mock
The meat it feeds on;

[Final 3 Greens]

Possible but that would be really stupid. And if this pilot really was doing that, he would be in two-way contact with ATC (as per U.S. rules) and the said ATC would probably tell him to get out of there. Even if the said ATC was say Elstree, I am sure Elstree will get a phone call from LC pretty damn fast if this kind of thing develops. After all, LC will know the filed destination, and will have transferred him to its frequency.

Also not relevant to the IFR-flight scenario because CAS/OCAS doesn't apply there.

Well I agree it would be really stupid, but this incident does not sound as if it involved high levels of airmanship, does it?

The OP's description doesn't say whether it was IFR, VFR or whatever, I was visualising a conversation with London Info, where someone who didn't realise thought they had "flight following" and had got clearance to enter the TMA.

Not likely, I grant you, but then again there must be a hell of an explanation for this one.

[Fuji Abound]

Interesting thinking about it again.

I wonder if the order is correct - viz Heathrow, Stansted, Farnborough.

In that order that is not an easy "circuit" to fly.

Farnborough, Heathrow, Stansted or the reverse would make more sense.

Also all the infringements were apparently at 2,000 feet. Stansted has stubs at 1,500 - 2,500 but Heathrow and Farnborough dont.

Maybe Johny got the autopilot stuck and had just read Gasil which told him not to pop the circuit breaker in any circumstances. Ah well, best let the autopilot do its thing, he thought. XXX is on a pre-engaged FP, autopliot now stuck in GPS heading mode and alt hold at 2,000 feet, proceeding on CAA advisory not to pop the breakers, will report at destination when autopliot relinquishes control. :}

[IO540]

Does anyone have any details? I presume ATC know exactly but are not allowed to talk.

[rauxaman]

>>>This forum needs a bit of Shakespeare<<<

>>>I wonder exactly what "approporiate CAA action" is being taken?<<<

Bring me my pound of flesh?


He/she obviously took that "continue under your own navigation" bit tooooo literally :eek:

[zkdli]

I understand that the aircraft was flying from Duxford after an airshow and routed Stansted, Heathrow, Farnborough:)

[IO540]

Was it a display aircraft?

[rauxaman]

Just spent an afternoon demonstrating... flying with one wing and no engine
:)

[MIKECR]

Are you going to elaborate any further rauxaman?

Nice looking aircraft - the PA46, always liked them. The first one I saw in the flesh however was sadly damaged at Perth after the nosewheel locked itself out of position on landing.