BWA Unanswered Questions

[evolante]

The last topic was closed last night leaving some questions unanswered.

In response to The Guvnors last post - BWA Plc are in Receivership. The Receivers are Kroll Buchler Phillips of Grosvenor Sq London.

The only owned assets are a couple of BAC 1-11 500 aircraft, spare engines and rotable / consumable spares. All the other assets are leased to BAe Tombo Aviation and Babcock & Brown

There are 2 ATR-72 aircraft sub leased to Citiflier and I presume ATR Asset Maangement originally provided the finance and will take over the lease.

I understand World Aviation Support will continue as a separate viable business though I would reckon there may be some questions asked over transfer of assets between BWA and WAS.

Good luck to WAS and Astraeus - so long as some former BWA jobs are saved....

[The Guvnor]

Evolante - thanks for that information.

Holt CJ - indeed so; and just as it was getting interesting, as well! I suspect that it might assist the Receivers if their attention was drawn to what has been uncovered.

From today's Scotsman:

BWA collapses with £1m debt

Jane Gillard Northern Business Reporter


AN AIRLINE which transports offshore workers from Aberdeen to Shetland will go into receivership just two weeks after five of its aircraft were grounded after a dispute over landing fees.

Southend-based British World Airways, which employs about 50 people in Aberdeen, had debts of nearly £1 million which were exacerbated by a downturn in the aviation sector following 11 September.

Management said yesterday the company had collapsed after the leases on two of their aircraft were cancelled on Thursday.

The airline, one of the longest surviving independent airlines in the UK, established in 1946 as Silver City Airways, operates 10 aircraft from London’s Stansted airport and Aberdeen Airport.

Now all of its aircraft are grounded and the 320 staff have been told to clear their desks.

British World Airways specialised in supplying back-up aircraft to other carries, including British Airways, Air France and easyJet.

The airline was also subcontracted by Bristow Helicopters to transport about 250 oil workers a day from Aberdeen to Scatsta on Shetland. Workers were then transferred offshore by helicopter.

Bristow awarded British World Airways the sub-contract at the end of 1999 and the airline had been operating the route for 20 months.

However, Bristow’s contingency plans swung into action yesterday and oil workers were taken to and from Shetland on two aircraft operated by Flightline, also based in Southend. No passengers were affected by the change of carrier on the route.

A spokesman for Bristow said Flightline was expected to continue to operate the Aberdeen to Scatsta route until January when a permanent arrangement would be made.

"At the moment we have a number of options and will assess these over the next few weeks," the spokesman said.

Yesterday, British World Airways managing director Chris Bakhurst said: "I and my colleagues have been trying to find a rescue package.

"But with the state of the aviation industry, this morning we felt it was impossible to continue to trade and in fact every one of our aircraft is grounded now and there will be no more flying and the staff will have to clean out their desks."

But Bakhurst said there was a ray of hope for the 50 Aberdeen-based employees.

"We are very hopeful that whoever takes over our flying for the oil consortium may be able to take on some of our staff."

The company said the collapse of two customers, both European airlines, left the airline with debts of close to £1 million.

The final straw came on Thursday when BAE Systems decided to terminate the lease of two aircraft and soon British World Airways other lessors followed suit. A receiver is expected to be appointed early next week.

[Baldrick's trousers]

I have deleted my comments because there are those that misunderstood their meaning.
No libellous allegations were intended and if any were present then I unreservedly withdraw them and most sincerely apologise.
We are all sad by the death of BWA, and I would like to take this opportunty to wish all those affected by this tragedy the very best for the future

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Virtual Mountie ]

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Virtual Mountie ]

[itchypuss]

I reckon one of the things you need to look at is the 40 plus million of assets shown on the balence sheet started by the previous regime!!!! I spent 6 happy years at BWA,sad day

[Honest Frank]

It really does make you sit up and think can these "life wreckers" ever be trusted in any other role where peoples livelihoods are in their hands. They really are in it for themselves.
Their day will come. Oh yes, their day will come!

[itchypuss]

Virtual Montie
Are we talking about Sessions if so I am amazed any other airline would employ him!!

[black beauty]

Maybe MS has also gone to 'ASTRAEUS'! ;)

[1 2 GO]

We must not be afraid to find the truth and get to the bottom of what untoward or illegal has been done and who was behind it.

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: 1 2 GO ]

[Rocket Ron]

Wrt "quick start-ups" on the previous BWA thread, I believe the quickest was Euro-Direct Airlines back in '94 - took just three months; also backed by BAe and run by ex-BWA Directors!

If history is to repeat itself, the only losers were the rank and file, as both EDA directors went on to more lucrative ventures.

Best of luck to all at BWA.

[itchypuss]

Rocket
The circumstances in which Niel and Derek left were very different to what is going down now

[Rocket Ron]

Yes, I realise that, but I just wanted to make the point that the "planned-bankrupcy conspiracy theory" that has been suggested does not require a particularly long lead-time when related to a phoenix start-up.

[The Guvnor]

Rocket Ron - don't forget the licencing/certification system has changed since then (to JAR-OPS) - that is a much more intensive and drawn out process.

Under the old system, you could just copy someone else's manuals and you're A for away - now you have aircraft specific documentation, QA controls by the tonne and all the fun things like JAR145 and TRTO certification to contend with!

[aztruck]

As one of the aforementioned "junior leeches" I suppose I'm in a good position to tell you what I THINK went on, and then you can rubbish me and accuse me of whatever you wish.
BWA had invested in 737's with no clear idea of how it was going to control its cost structure and also suffered from a paralysis within operational management about how to proceeed.
The Company nearly sank until a rescue package was put together which involved recruiting people with more appropriate expertise and the courage to make bold decisions.
Enter the 757, which flew its socks off from the moment it entered service, and which was on the verge of spawning numerous other contracts had the airline been able to keep trading.
The business plan of becoming a TRTO on the 75 and 73 was sound up till Sept 11, but no costs were incurred which significantly affected the airline one way or another as far as I can tell.
The 800 grand Eurocontrol bill sank the ship, which was already floundering because of historic debt and nil business for the 737 fleet.
Oh yes, and if you're going to insult me,or my colleagues I'd prefer you had the balls to do it to my face.

[ADC]

Hey Guv,

You're quite right about AOC applications. You're up to, what, about 3 and a half years now eh?
:)

[crewrest]

Don't start a Gov bash here, that's how the last BWA thread was shut down

[A and C]

I,m very sad to see BWA go down and i feel for all of you who are out of work I,v had it happen to me when debonair failed and it was not nice then when the business was in a much better shape.

I had not expected BWA to be the first to crash , my money was on flightline for that but it just shows how wrong perseptions can be however it was good to see flightline was able to pick up the scotish oil contract so quickly and hopefuly this will keep them in business.

The last thing we need now is another airline failure .

[The Guvnor]

soddit - I believe that they operated ATR72s (which were then subleased to CityFlyer when they were replaced with the ATRs). I suspect that the 146s are a short term 'quick fix'.

ADC - actually, it will be 2 years at the end of February. It just feels a lot longer! :(

[freightdoggy dog]

If it helps........Channex are probably looking for 737 drivers early next year. Stn based as well. Give Nick.H a ring.

[Horatio]

Virtual Mountie, first and foremost, I offer my condolences to you and all of your colleagues at BWA. It is indeed a sad day when any airline fails. From what has been said by a number of your colleagues, BWA had a very able, loyal, competent and determined team that did their very best to strengthen and keep the airline afloat. I personally know a number of these people and I can assure you that they are very capable individuals indeed, with a very successful track record behind them. This is the reason for my response to you.

I understand, and indeed sympathise, with your predicament right now. I can imagine a whole cocktail of emotions that you feel, ranging from shock, disbelief, despair, anger and frustration. Whilst these are natural emotions, anger makes folk want to hit out against someone else even when it is not justified. In this context, I believe that you do yourself no justice or credit whatsoever to publicly condemn and insult your former colleagues for what has happened. A lot of what you say is conjecture, supposition and worse still, potentially libellous. I cannot imagine that you need to compound the problems that you are currently facing. It is a well known adage in this business that ‘what goes around, comes around’ and it does not pay to alienate oneself from people that you could probably encounter again in your future career. Best way to react is as you have been taught to in the cockpit; sit on your hands, keep cool, assess the evidence, and then make a cold rational decision based upon the ‘facts’ in front of you. This advice is given sincerely and sympathetically and I hope you will not take it as patronising.

Sept 11 was the catalyst that ignited the ‘domino effect’ resulting in the world-wide misfortune of aviation. Most had deep-seated problems that were already there long before Sept 11, but had not been addressed. Take comfort from the fact that BWA managed to survive considerably longer than many have and that maybe part due to the dedication and ability of those you now choose to condemn. Also, take comfort from the fact that there are many ‘green shoots’ sprouting up right now in aviation and that this blow maybe be short-lived for you and your colleagues.

[1 2 GO]

The point is we have been shafted and want to put it right, also if you give in then the same thing will keep happening again and again. We must uncover the truth but at the same time move on.
Lets stick together and make sure us good honest guys come out of this the better. ;)

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: 1 2 GO ]

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: 1 2 GO ]

[Puritan]

Tell you what 1 2 Go, and VM, have a read at what JH has just written in the BWA forum - them come back in here and appologise !

[Horatio]

1 2 GO, Do you really believe this is the result of a well-planned, pre conceived operation, that is now coming to light?

If that is TRUE, yeah, go for it! My only advice to you is that you must be damned sure you are right, both in your facts and your targets. If not, you will only compound your current woes and you stand to lose the’ shirt off your back’.

If you can prove subterfuge, then go for it with all of your collective strength, but again, be warned that the greater the number involved will offer none of you any added protection. The courts will happily distribute their punishment on all that participate.

Tread carefully guys, for goodness sake. Stick to facts and act accordingly.

[1 2 GO]

Puritan
As I said we need to uncover the truth whatever that is. I didnt say JH had anything to do with it and I have just read his post.
To be honest I dont know what to believe at the moment and nothing would surprise me.

[blended winglet]

What a sad day,
fond memories of junior piloting at SND
back in the Viscount days, happy innocent days; Viv, Pete T, etc, grand folk :-)

good luck folks,

[1 2 GO]

Thanks Holt CJ
Lets all keep an open mind right now and not rule out anything.
Good night :)

[Horatio]

Holt CJ...fair comment , maybe you know the law better than I do<s>

As to whether I heed my own advice...absolute BOLLOX. I have not been abusive, nor wrongly accused anyone here, so go back to your lawbooks...lol...Sheesh, I have more faith in the English Law than to believe rantings on here

Who was born yesterday?????

[Horatio]

Holt???...what are you doing here on an aviation forum? Go play elsewhere, where you may have something to contribute. Spit the dummy?...You will know when I do that, friend<s>

[Horatio]

Soddit, I can't agree more. read my postings; have I not been urging tolerance here?

HCJ has been winding up the fair discussions here...go look. I reckon he/she could well be a first year law graduate/frustrated pilot...
[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Horatio ]

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Horatio ]

[snooze_ya_lose]

Speaking of unanswered questions, it now becomes very clear why the news of the BWA aircraft being impounded at STN was repeatedly buried on PPRuNe; was it five or six threads that disappeared in short order?

I guess it is only natural that the PPruNe administrators who have close connections with BWA would exercise their powers to bury that news and offer what can now be seen as obvious attempts to limit the damage, dressed up as an explanation of an alleged BAA error.

We know better than to expect fairness in editorial decisions here, but could I just enter a plea on behalf of other airlines named in connection with rumours of impending closure or financial difficulties, that you treat them as sympathetically as you have BWA?

Not a lot to ask, really...

[Horatio]

Snooze et al; You cry foul and state editorial censorship and unfairness. Look how long this post is. Lots of people up for libellous comments, yet this has not been withdrawn.

When are you guys gonna grow up and smell the coffee. The world doesn't owe you a living - far from it.

[ABBOT]

The thread seems to be becoming somewhat hyperactive, I have read all related posts, and if all concerned have acted for the common good then none should be afraid. All we do is pass in hand evidence to the appropriate authority. None of us are founding any civil action, we are mere messengers. :)

[Only A Few More Seasons]

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Only A Few More Seasons ]

[black beauty]

OAFMS

Am I right in thinking he had a not too disimilar bad smell? :(

[Only A Few More Seasons]

Black Beauty

Not sure of your thread there are you talking of convict/Aussie bad smell?

OAFMS

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Only A Few More Seasons ]

[evolante]

This topic seems to be getting away from the Nitty Gritty.

An earlier posting referred to BWA balance sheet showing £40M of assets. I would be interested to know whether this included World Aviation Support?- as if not I cannot see where the 'assets' came from.

Similarly if HSBC had debts totalling £1m on BWA alone, exactly what were those debts secured on?
More questions.... :confused:

[The Guvnor]

As I understand it, BWA's sole assets were a couple of (one would assume) fully depreciated BAC1-11s and a load of BAC1-11 spares and tooling. I have been informed - and I'm not sure how reliably, so make of it what you will - that the spares and tooling for the other aircraft were leased or alternatively owned by WAS.

Is WAS a 100% owned subsidiary of BWA plc - and if so, what are its declared assets? Who is in the picture to buy it as a going concern - and do they have any links to the new company that has been discussed?

This situation sounds very much like that of Gill Airways, where banks provided funds against cashflow - effectively on an unsecured basis.

If HSBC was aware that BWA had lost its two European contracts (with substantial amounts owing); and that the West African flights were having to use OM's aircraft because the 757 had insufficient baggage capacity, then it is obvious that the cashflow against which the bank was relying for its debt service had, to a very large extent, disappeared. Under those circumstances it is not unreasonable for them to pull the plug.

As to whether or not anything improper happened - well, it depends on what contracts have ended up with the new company. Certainly, those that were lost - and left BWA with bad debts - were not taken over; though it would be interesting to see if any commitments for next summer that should have gone to BWA (and perhaps convinced HSBC that there was light at the end of the tunnel) have been diverted to the new company.

[itchypuss]

WAS is a 100% owned subsidury of BWA and I think you will find they leased the hangers so the asset position is a total fiction.
This is probably why the auditors bailed out.

If they were trading whilst insolvent and setting up a company in the background I would imagine the city regulator will have something to say as this is serious stuff

[itchypuss]

A group of us looked at buying BWA about a year before it was floated. I remember our accountant couldnt stop laughing for a week after he had studied the books. You people who have been affected by this might want to dig back a long time to see where all this started

[Old King Coal]

itchypuss, regards the beginning of your second paragraph of your posting on page 3 - Are you privy to some facts that the rest of us aren't ? If not how about placing a little more empasis on the IF ?!

Ah, thanks for that (hence the edit), you've just answered my question. So it might be fair to say that there were some questionable financial 'doings' occurring well before the newest group of directors took office ? Because that would then account for why so many directors seemingly came and went, i.e. it looked good (but who made it look good ?), they joined, then found out the truth, and left.

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Old King Coal ]

[itchypuss]

Old King Cole

Look back at the people who made a great deal of money out of the bizzare reversal into an underware company that was the BWA floatation. You people need to go for people with assets if you are to gain anything from this. You might want to look at the broker who masterminded the floatation as well.
Enough clues yet

[Mr Softie]

The roots of the failure of BWA can go back many years and many unanswered questions could lay at the doors of past incumbents.

The fact remains that BWA were a smalll, family style airline run by dedicated staff with one common aim. That of making the company successful and secure it's future.

When 1-11's became increasingly difficult to operate into Europe due to their chapter II restrictions,we had to look further afield and this mean't the big city.

The reversed takeover of Castle Mill promised many things to the company and I recall at the staff briefing announcemout a buoyant atmosphere and promise of job security and finance to develop the company move into the 21st century.

The fact remains that all the change to a PLC really brought with it was the stark realisation that without serious funding, the change to operate leased aircraft was fraught with financial dangers in an increasingly competitive market for jet capacity.

Maybe another wiser move was for 4 x ATP's and not 6, but the real nail in the coffin has been the high prices BWA have had to charge clients because of the overheads it had to meet to keep creditors, banks and above all the staff, paid and happy.

Many attempts to buoy up the company were made and maybe investment in the staff and company technology would have been wiser than some of the consultancy fees paid to external companies brought in to assess BWA's worth and supposedly work something out better for the future. Maybe a chat with the staff involved may have been both cheaper and more fruitful (a lesson to all I hope).

Earlier, there was talk of 40m assets. I would venture to suggest that the real assets the company have owned have been the fantastic staff dedicated to the last and prepared to work many a long hour of their own time to make the thing work for all. Their flexibility and sheer dedication, backed by some loyal and fantatsic customers has no particular financial value but is priceless in every other respect. There were many on Friday who said they would have continued to work for nothing in order to keep the thing afloat, that dedicated and family an atmosphere there was at BWA.

Best Wishes from all our contacts have been both heartfelt and honest. The 56 years this company survived touched many lives, not just our own, but above all, it's sad demise is a loss of magnitude proportions to the industry and to all the families affected directly by it's failure.

Those who seek to take the cream from a fantastic company, may it turn sour upon you all.

[itchypuss]

Mr Softie
All that may be but the reality is a lot of people have lost their jobs when a few have made a great deal of money.Mostly accountants.

I am under the impression that quite a few out there are seeking compensation.I am suggesting where they should start.

Look also at the antipodean connection you will find further clues there

[Mr.Benn]

Mr Softie, while I share many of your views that BWA had the best staff in the world, I think wishing anyone who trys to rescue something from the ashes, bad luck, not very productive. If some of us are lucky to enough to get new jobs from this, then good luck to all!

--------------------
As if by magic the shop keeper appeared!

[speed check]

Just had a dear john from B.World dated the 11th Dec i applied a year ago !. sounded like a good outfit to me.Best wishes to all the staff affected. :(

[MOR]

Well, it very sad to see an airline with the history of BWA going bust. I remember well the days of Sumburgh and watching the BAF (as it was then) Viscount doing the "Lighthouse 1A" onto 33.
Sad, also that so many accusations have been made with little or no facts to back them up. Although I don't know all the individuals personally, I do know by reputation that folk such as JM, JH, MM are managers of the highest calibre, and are also people of distinct integrity and honesty. If you want to blame someone, I suggest you dig a little deeper than the obvious targets.

It is quite clear that the new company being discussed was not set up with the intention of doing damage to BWA, a simple perusal of the dates that things were done will show that.

Yes, there may well be wrongdoing to answer for, but please aim at the correct target when spouting off!

Finally, it is probably a good thing that Holt CJ has gone, as his pseudo-legalese was getting a little tedious and his treatment of Horatio was remarkably similar to that which he accused Horatio of, ie bullying in its nature.

His interpretation of what the law is supposed to do was highly entertaining, though!

[itchypuss]

MOR is so right you Guys need to dig deep
I have passed some info onto one of your Captains today which may help

[Baldrick's trousers]

Horatio, thanks for your advice and it was by no means patronising. I appreciate that you are trying to help and for that I do truly thank you.
As for everyone else. Puritan I am sorry, genuinely sorry and withdraw my comments (which I were misinterpreted) wholheartedly.
1 2 GO, Having read JH posting, and spoken to him via e-mail, I have had to eat a large slice of humble pie and I did deserve it.
JH actually fought for the airline right up until the last minute, as did everyone. I didn't know just how hard everyone had fought on the whole matter.
If anyone wants to contact me I am at: [email protected]. Feel free and I will apologise to you personally if you wish.
I was angry at first, like we all are, now I simply want to put the whole thing behind me and try to enjoy Christmas.
Let me end this by wishing everyone a merry christmas, a happy new year, and all the luck in the world.

[Horatio]

Virtual Mountie

Good on you! You have publicly apologised to those that you albeit, unintentionally defamed. It takes a brave man to come on line and unreservedly apologise in the manner that you have done. I respect that, very much. That takes balls, and you're a better man for having done so.

I'm certain that many here understand and sympathise with your predicament at the moment. Sadly, there are too many that have recently gone through the same mill. However, I firmly believe that things are beginning to look up and it is just a question of time before many of these are reinstated in their rightfull place; i.e. behind the controls of an aircraft.

I wish you and all of your colleagues a very happy and peaceful Christmas and sincerely hope that 2002 wil bring you all new and exciting opportunities.

If I can help you personally, ask some of the guys that know me, then email me. I dare not post my true co-ordinates, for the fear of wrath from Capt Pprune and the punitive damages that he would inflict upon me!! (Happy Xmas to you too Danny <s> )

[aztruck]

Well said Virtual Mountie. I wish you well and a very Merry Christmas.

[tilii]

That’s it, then. Superb airline, staffed by the world’s best employees and run by men of the highest personal qualities and with enormous integrity, now gone down forever.

No one should ask the reasons why, it was all down to Osama bin Laden. Anyone suggesting otherwise must heed the CEO’s explanations and his assertion of having fought for the airline to the final moment.

Having suitably eaten humble pie, the doubter shall make a grovelling public apology. He will then be loudly applauded for his enormous courage and promised unspecified assistance and the hope of future employment.

Yeah, right. Makes me puke. Sad, sad days. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[aztruck]

JH's post on the BWA site goes into everything in quite some detail, and also provides some useful information about where and with whom to pose the relavent questions.
Creative accountancy seems to loom large in the frame.