Boeing 757 How to make Circles on Fix-Page?

[Pittsle]

Hello 757-Flyers,

how Do create a circle around a point on the fix-page of an older Collins-FMS?

The usual procedure to insert e.g. /25 in a LSK 2L or 3L does not work here.

Is there a special prefix or procedure to do it?

Thanks.

[kijangnim]

Greetings

Boeing is known for having two colored cockpits, Brown (757, 767,777,747) and grey(737) so you will have a brown box (HWL FMS) or a grey box (Smiths) So I dont think that Collins would have any FMS on Brown cockpits, having said that, I dont think either that we can create circles ( a part from hold entering 0 for the leg lenght) since circle (radius to fix leg type) were not in the ARINC 424 -7 protocol which is the protocol used in the old box.:hmm:

[aa73]

no circle-drawing unless you have the newer Pegasus (GPS) FMC. The old 200K boxes can't do it.

[Spooky 2]

Leave it to Boeing to make us wonder what's going on. The B787 has Honeywell and has a gray flight deck! I think this question is refering to the energy rings and if so I know you can do them on a PIP although that may be an option as are any number of features above and beyond the standard issue. An example would be the 4th page on the FIX page of the 777.

[kijangnim]

Greetings,
I thought that the forum's aim was to provide accurate information, and certainly not to try to outsmart anyone :=, unrelevant remarks will not make you smarter, since you didnot even understand the question.:}

[Spooky 2]

You talk'n to me? If so I guess I missed your point. How about sharing some of that infomation on the energy management circles that can be found via the off path descent page. You have correctly pointed out that Boeing's do not use Collins FMS, only Smith and Honeywell at this time, so what else do we need to know other than it can't be done on an FMS that does not exist in a Boeing aircraft? Don't want to start a contest, just trying to figure out where your coming from on this issue.

Regards!

[Spooky 2]

Wow you guys take this stuff serious. Threatened the CP:}? Don't what your flying but if you have a B757/767 with a PIP/or Pegasus and the Off Path descent feature you have "enery management circles. If you don't like the name, take it up with Honeywell. I'm out of here before this conversation turns violent.:eek:

[KUMOOZ]

The answer to the original question is that yes it can be done on a 757.
There are a few variants of FMC. PIP/Pegasus etc
You will need a pegasus FMC to be able to do it. If you are not sure, go to the fix page and if Key 6R has a FL/ETA prompt it is a pegasus FMC.

This FMC on the fix page allows you to enter radials and distances on the left hand side at keys 2/3/4L under BRG/DIST in the format say 270/50 i.e 270R and 50 miles. If you simply leave the bearing info out and enter a distance in the format /50 in this case, it will draw a ring around the waypoint at the desired distance.

Hey Presto!

[757jetjockey]

Where fitted (think only on pegasus/PIP FMC's) the Offpath Des when selected on displays 2 rings around the aircraft, one is a 'clean' ring the other is a 'drag req'd' ring. If you are outside the first ring (idle power) you may find you are in a low energy situation and may need to use power. If you start getting inside the second ring - drag req'd. You may find yourslef getting hot/high etc etc. As long as you remain inbetween the two rings you are in a good position to fly an idle power approach

Its quite useful initially I found when training but after a while become a bit distracting.

[Spooky 2]

Okay,I'm laughing with you now, not at you! CP, as in Chief Pilot. I simply took the question to from a different slant since there are no Collins FMS in Boeing's the question was moot. What some pilots fail to understand is that there are soooo many variations on a B757/767 FMS that it's hard to talk about one case without knowing exactly what the operator has in his box and believe me there are many options. Look on your Descent page the next time and see what your Off Path Descent has to offer. That is what I was refering to as I thought that maybe those were the rings he refered to.

No problem other than one man's 757/767 may not even begin to resemble the next operators aircraft. Example; how many B767's have you seen with 3 HMG's or a Hyd. driven emergency fuel boost pump? Well they all have existed and the point is that one needs to becareful when he lumps all versions together. Honeywell offers numerous features on all of their later FMS units so without having a real hands on encounter it's hard to say what your looking at. Check out that Off Path Descent faeture...pretty nice stuff for certain occasions.

[Spooky 2]

Off Path Descent is available on the PIP. Easiest way to recognize a Pegasus FMS is that a single VNAV key replaces the Climb, Cruise and Descent keys....although I have heard that there is a Pegasus with all three keys. Must be a Pegasus Jr!

[Rainboe]

3333333333333333333333333

[Spooky 2]

One more FMS example. Required Time of Arrivals (RTA) are seldom seen on 757/767 even with Pegasus. It's about a $60,000 option and if the operator is not into FANS, they simply opt out. RTA's are usually found on Progress pages 3 or 4. There are a lot of 747's running around with minimal FMS packages. A few don't even have GPS, but that is becoming more rare as the years go by. I would not even begin to describe the options available for the 777 and soon to be 787.

[kijangnim]

Greetings
Thanks Rainboe :ok:

RTA was invented by Smiths (grey box) ahead of anybody (in fact the smiths FMS is the most advanced) and its RTA was/is valid for any flight phase with a 6 sec precision, on top of that you have an RTA window, to be used for example if you are Oceanic (+/_ 3 minutes )
IT is only at a later stage that ICAO saw a good tool for FANS, and for timed Approaches. :ok:

[767-300ER]

One other issue here....

You need a PIP/Pegasus FMC...

and you need a symbol generator of sufficient newness....what I mean is that the original generation symbol generators will not draw the circle on the display and in fact can cause the EHSI to fail....if that happens all one has to do is remove the fix from the fix page and EHSI functionality is restored.

So it is a combination of the FMC and symbol generator...

cheers

[kijangnim]

Greetings

I agree partially, (on the NAV DISPLAY the range marks are curved,no?):ouch:

The limitation as I posted before comes from the inability of the processor used in the early FMS to process ARINC 424-10 and beyong curved leg types such as Radius form FIX, Dme Arc and so on.
The curved line, the old system could draw was a fake circle composed of zillions of waypointsone next to the other, these waypoints are called "Fantom Waypoint" because just like Gasper you know they exist but you cannot see them.
I suppose that the computor reset on the graphic generator side)was triggered by too namy waypoints to process :ok:

[Spooky 2]

You are absolutely right and somewhere around 1989/90 was when Boeing/Honewell started installing the the more powerful versions as standard equipment. Symbol Generators are not cheap, so if you need to upgrade them just to get these few added feature it simply becomes cost prohibitive to most operators.

[kijangnim]

Greetings,
FYI today you have to be compliant with RNP specific legs (most of them Turns and/or curves, I thnk it is the RTCA DO 236A spec) at least to be sure that the aircraft will stay within the RNP corridor during a Turn, so what was a cost:( yesterday is a price today:E.
Most airlines make the same mistakes time and time again, instead of taking the advantage of competition during equipment selection (BFE) and get a very good price, they skip options, few years later there is an operational requirement and then BANG:ouch:

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

This reminds me of the old "T word" joke
( Q-how many Nigels does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer=100,1 to change the bulb, 99 to tell you how they changed the bulb on the Trident)

The answer to Pittsle's question is - You can't!

[kijangnim]

Greetings,

I think that talking (writting) about the subject with the collaterals, is more enriching :ok: than a louzy joke :} followed by a negative answer :ouch:

[NW3]

A little bit of thread creep, but related to the FIX page so hope nobody minds :)

Say you're going across the Atlantic with RTE of something like this:

5220N
5130N
5040N
4950N
etc.

... someone once showed me a clever way to check that you're on the correct route (FMC vs clearance) by plotting your position at, say, 32W (when going west), but I can't remember what it is.

Obviously you can just wait until you're at 32W, but there's something you can do on the Pegasus FMS like entering 32W or W32 on FIX or DIR INTC. A 'fix' is then created which is a waypoint at whatever stage your route intersects 32 West. You can then copy it to the scratch pad and see what the Latitude will be, plot this on the map, and make sure you're going where you should be.

Only problem is that whenever I try it these days I keep getting not in database, invalid entry etc. - I can't remember the format to use.

Anyone?

Many thanks

NW3

[kijangnim]

Greetings,
If you select the one of the IRS position in the scratchpad then enter it in the fix page I think it will do the trick, and show you were you are versus whatever is on your navigation display.
In any case if you are buiding intersections do not forget that the navigation display shows a lambert caneva therefore any line is a great circle :ok:

[Spooky 2]

I have never seen a brown box that will accept a Lat/long on the FIX page. I'm not sure where you are going with this?

[NW3]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I feel my question above might have been a bit rambling... just to clear up:

On a NAT, you need to make sure you've programmed the FMC correctly, and so having plotted your clearance on a chart, you plot the FMC position 2 degrees of longitude after a waypoint, to make sure you're not in the wrong place.

So - you know where you are at 30W (position checks as 51N 30W or whatever).

The question is where will you be at, say, 32W - you need to check you're not heading off on the wrong course from 51N30W.

The notes I made said that you put 32W or W32 at L1 on the DIR INTC page, creating a waypoint called something like W3201. Bringing this down to the scratchpad would display N5123.4W03200.0 - plot that, then erase the change, and away you go.

NW3

[kijangnim]

Greetings,

Hi SPOOKY2, I was trying to recall 10 years ago B767 Brown Box:}, (I am curently on A330, however next month I am moved to the B777 fleet)
Maybe I was using the end of the FPLN, then creating a disco and after the disco entering the IRS lat/long to check Drifts during flight, the position would be white waypoints unstrung to the flight plan, and therefore adding no distances to the trip distance:ok:.

regards

[Spooky 2]

The method you have described is frequently used to create ETP wpts. and just as you say, the milage remains the same as long as you don't close up the discontinuity.

[Pittsle]

:ok:
I can see clearly now. It is NOT a Collins, you were right. It does NOT have the VNAV-key, so it is NOT a Pegasus and I can NOT draw circles.

See Ya!:ok:

[NW3]

Hi Guys,

Found the answer to my own question (above), so thought I might as well pop it here in case anyone was losing sleep...

On the scenario I had put forward, I was going across the pond and wanted to get the FMC to plot a waypoint at, say, 22W, or 32W - i.e. 2 degrees after the waypoint - to make sure we were on the correct track.

I was trying to insert the waypoint W22, whereas it should have been W022 (i.e. 3 degrees needed for the longitude). It's a built in function of the FMC.

Anyway, there you go. Take it or leave it :-)

NW3

[Rainboe]

3333333333333333333333333

[A Comfy Chair]

NW3, also if you want to do one every x number of latitudes, you can do that too...

Say from W32, if you want a point every 5nm, W032-5 should do it.

Pop it on the active line, or before the waypoint comes up, and bobs your uncle you've got latitude crossing waypoints till the end of your route.

But I'm sure you knew that already :D