Ryanair and NATS strike:ugh:

[eastern wiseguy]

From Ryanair website 10th June 2008.


UK ATC might as well be on strike today as UK airspace is partially closed for military activity and the remaining airspace is limited by ATC staff shortages. UK ATC (NATS) is supposed to be supervised by the CAA - winners of the “worst economic regulator of the year” award.


Well it weren't me ...I am on leave...so what made Leo Hairy Camel get all fizzed up?

[beamwidth]

his airline is fooked, and he's looking to blame everyone else. look through the news section of their website. it has attacks on atc europewide.

he's running out of people to blame for his current crisis! poor Leo

[PPRuNe Radar]

The press release comments made by Ryanscare's stooge on 10th June is a straight lift of the one he also made on 30th May. I suppose it keeps costs down by spouting the same garbage instead of having to think of new words.

Maybe we should live up to the portrait painted by a certain Mr O'Brien and do nothing out of the ordinary for his airline. No direct routes, no bending over backwards, no co-ordinating their flights through military airspace. If we are being slated, then we might as well deserve it.

[Loxley]

Maybe we should live up to the portrait painted by a certain Mr O'Brien and do nothing out of the ordinary for his airline. No direct routes, no bending over backwards, no co-ordinating their flights through military airspace.

Exactly. I for one can't understand the mentality of the people who run Ryanair.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds them.

They blatantly have no idea about how ATC works and haven't bothered to take the time to even acquaint themselves with ATC rules and regulations. And to top it all, they're calling for competition to be brought in with regards to the provision of ATC service, obviously either oblivious or totally unbothered of the serious safety implications that could arise when you start bringing competition into such a safety-critical environment.

Yet another reason why I would never fly Ryanair.

[45 before POL]

Somewhat dissappointing that any operator will make comments like these. ATC strive in trying to provide a safe, orderly and expeditious service, no matter who the airline is. We all try to listen, learn, help and go forward,but that will just get peoples backs up and backward steps.:(

[Lon More]

.... and such selective memories, slating BA for "rip offs" Talk about pot calling kettle black.


The only airline whose initial call always contains, " and we're running a little late ..."" http://www.hawkins.nu/gtchat/images/crap.gif

[055166k]

I'm sure the guy was only having a bit of fun. However nATS do sometimes appear to abuse their monopoly provider status. The CAA has almost been airbrushed out of the picture these days, and nATS never correct or comment whenever the press refer to them as "National Air Traffic Services". The Functional Airspace Block is going ahead.....this is where ATC service will be provided by off-shore cheaper labour.
Monopoly abuse may see the introduction of a special premium rate biz-jet service outside the main traffic flows!
Perhaps the time is right to consider breaking up the airspace and going out to tender for service provision.

[slip and turn]

...and nATS never correct or comment whenever the press refer to them as "National Air Traffic Services".Do they know any better I wonder ...

Domain name:

nats.co.uk

Registrant:

National Air Traffic Services Ltd

Registrant type:

UK Limited Company, (Company number: 3155567)

Relevant dates:

Registered on: before Aug-1996

Renewal date: 01-Dec-2009

Last updated: 05-Nov-2007

Registration status:

Registered until renewal date.

WHOIS lookup made at 09:50:05 16-Jun-2008

[Spamcan defender]

Shame really as all this serves to do is hack off ATC folks who then refuse expeditious routes etc which ultimately leads to the flight crew being the ones copping the flak. I feel sorry for Ryaniar crews that their management (apparently) enjoy getting them in the ****.

055166k - Your having a laugh there I see. For a minute there I thought you were serious.

Spamcan

[slip and turn]

On a serious note, after years of developing working methods where NATS has obviously been accommodating Ryanair by optimising their flights into and out of Stansted for example, and quite considerably so, I think it borders on shameful if any ATCO here is inciting an unofficial work to rule against Ryanair without notifying that airline officially in writing well in advance.

Surely no-one is suggesting unofficial action?

I don't want to be in the middle of any real Ryanair low fuel situation exacerbated by some lightning ad-hoc implemented ATCO work-to-rule thanks very much ...

[beamwidth]

The Functional Airspace Block is going ahead.....this is where ATC service will be provided by off-shore cheaper labour

Exactly - we dont want any of you cheapo brits doing us outta jobs!!!!!

[Loxley]

On a serious note, after years of developing working methods where NATS has obviously been accommodating Ryanair by optimising their flights into and out of Stansted for example, and quite considerably so, I think it borders on shameful if any ATCO here is inciting an unofficial work to rule against Ryanair without notifying that airline officially in writing well in advance.

Surely no-one is suggesting unofficial action?


Just playing devil's advocate here (well sort of! :}), I'm not sure where anyone on this thread is suggesting 'unofficial action' or 'work-to-rule'. What's 'work-to-rule' about allowing an aircraft to stay on a route that its company has filed on its flight plan?

I don't want to be in the middle of any real Ryanair low fuel situation exacerbated by some lightning ad-hoc implemented ATCO work-to-rule thanks very much ...

If an airline doesn't carry enough fuel to fly a route according to the flightplan that they filed, then that tells us a lot about that airline! Or are you suggesting, that like on the ground with the product they offer, Ryanair rely on cutting corners in the air as well.......?

[slip and turn]

If an airline doesn't carry enough fuel to fly a route according to the flightplan that they filed, then that tells us a lot about that airline! Or are you suggesting, that like on the ground with the product they offer, Ryanair rely on cutting corners in the air as well.......?No Loxley, I just marvelled at what ideas were propounded in the recent Ryanair Very Low Fuel thread - there was talk of 300kg for Mum, but don't recall any talk of 300kg for NATS PMT. They can't afford to worsen their averages. So if you lot truly have the hump, better tell them straight. Period :ok:

[Roffa]

The t*ss*r that wrote the Ryanair news release should go and check the NATS NERL licence and he might get a few of his facts correct.

Why isn't NATS responding to crap like that?

[Scooby Don't]

slip and turn - how would it be either unsafe or unprofessional to expect Ryanair, or any other, aircraft to fly their filed FPL route and adhere to all speed limiting points??? :ugh:

[anotherthing]

S&T

RYR fuel policy is for them and the regulator to sort out - nothing to do with ATC... as said above, why should they not fly the full FP route?

If they start getting short of fuel doing so then thats not an ATC problem (I know it is in the short term but they (RYR) will soon learn).

That is of course as long as some limp wristed ATCO doesn't give them a short cut because they state they are short of fuel but don't want to call a PAN.

[Spamcan defender]

slip and turn - how would it be either unsafe or unprofessional to expect Ryanair, or any other, aircraft to fly their filed FPL route and adhere to all speed limiting points??? :ugh:

Absolutely!! If they plan their flights and their fuel based on ATC direct routeings then that is bordering on criminal. I would suggest that even Ryanair would not (?) employ this practice.

Slip and Turn - I think you have misunderstood the concept of working to rule here matey. An air traffic environment requires strict adherence to rules and regs. Having someone follow THEIR filed route is hardly an inconvenience to them is it....its what they EXPECT to do....

Spamcan

[Loxley]

S&T,

I think the point being made here to you is that 'shortcuts' or Direct Routeings are (to use a well known cliche usually associated with early-go's :)) a priviledge, NOT a right. They're offered when traffic permits or with the goodwill of the ATCO. Pi$$ing and moaning about ATC in the press is not generating any goodwill towards Ryanair.

[Gonzo]

...And in fact many airlines now take a more enlightened view that staying on the flight plan allows CFMU and local network managers to predict and regulate flow more effectively.

[QWERTY9]

Request climb FL370

Climb FL230 .....(your requested FL) ! :E It may cost you twice as much but I don't care !

[fly_ebos]

It`s about time somebody makes Ryanair fly what they file.
I'm working in the Maastricht Brussels sector and whenever we get Ryanair overflights, they allways file KONAN at FL230, but they allways come at FL370

Only reason for this is to avoid being counted in our airspace, and so avoid a refusal, a reroute or a delay. Basically to cheat the system.

One day we should just enforce their requested levels according their flight plan!

[Telstar]

fly_ebos As Pilots we have been told by the company that these Flight Plans (FPLs) are "tactically" filed at these levels to avoid known delays and slots, and that this was done on the advice of Eurocontrol themselves. However we are instructed to request higher levels en route as over a 2 hour flight the difference in fuel usage is substantial.

Can I also just say, if it needs to be said, that those of us in the driving seat are just as mortified with embarrassment and angered about these daft press releases, court cases, banners painted on our aircraft (Arrivederci Alitalia etc.) as the people they are aimed at.

[fly_ebos]

Hi Telstar,

Thank you for your cockpit perspective! In understand why your company does file like this: it is to avoid restrictions.

But bare in mind that these restrictions are there for a reason, to protect us controllers from overload situations. If you put on restrictions and you get these Ryanair flights that means that in stead of a traffic count of 15, you get eg 20. Restrictions therefore lose there meaning if one airline tries to cheat it.

In fair honesty, Ryanair does have one big advantage, they are all single type. It makes it easier to put them in trail at FL370, on mach control, 10nm in between.

[mr.777]

Yeah, all well and good regarding flight planned levels...maybe one of you RYR chaps can now tell me why your entire fleet is completely incapable of flying ATC assigned speeds on final approach? I won't hold my breath.....

[anotherthing]

Fly EBOS

Regulations and flow are there to protect the ATCO - however, if you are overloaded, why accept them into your sector at that level in the first place?

What are your traffic managers doing allowing flights to consistently come in at this level if it is causing a problem?

Yes, airlines file FP's in such a way as to avoid restrictions - it's not just RYR by any means.

When in flight, why should a pilot not ask for higher? If you keep giving them it, it will just encourage them to keep asking.

If you can handle the traffic, then by all means take it on and give the guy climb - but ATCOs can't bleat about being too busy or overloaded if they have allowed the aircraft to climb above its FP level just because the pilot asked.

The 'C' in ATCO stands for 'Control' - maybe ATCOs should control the aircraft instead of letting the traffic control them!!

[1985]

In defence of FLY_EBOS the traffic has probably been climbed by another sector well in advance of the FIR boundary. Even as far back as over Wales if they're coming from DUB. I'd imagine he doesn't have that much of a choice about the level it comes at.

[Lon More]

What are your traffic managers doing allowing flights to consistently come in at this level if it is causing a problem?
Informal chat with the Head of Ops. for the Supervisor (manager), definitely no coffee or biccys being served.

the traffic has probably been climbed by another sector well in advance of the FIR boundary.
Usually the case; and the reaction tends to be, "If they can take one extra ..."

they have allowed the aircraft to climb above its FP level just because the pilot asked
See above. The lower level may be requested in a subsequent sector - and then with a return to the higher FL in the sector following. Requested level is one of the last things considered by an area controller, so long as there are no conflicts, and if there are no conflicts there's no problem I looked once at the feasability of providing a warning when actual FL was not requested level (IIRC 60-70% of the time it wasn't) and came to the conclusion that it was worthless. .

If you want a laugh, try this "c/s descend to FL230, as requested":E

[QWERTY9]

The traffic managers will more often than not know nothing about the climb as the decision has been made tactically by the ATCO without reference. I can understand why it's done and that's to give the airline the best possible service, but sometimes the bigger picture is admitedly overlooked which can lead to potential problems for other sectors/units. I don't think there are many ATCO's who have not at some time been guilty of this.

There is only one way to ensure that conflicts like this do not arise and that is for pilots to conform to the their filed flight level and ALL ATCO's to do the same. Easier said than done I know !!

I don't believe that Eurocontrol condone or offer advice to this type of action as they are the ones who ultimately have to sort out the problems caused. IFPU/CFMU have their part to play in this and should enforce irregular flight planning more stringently.

[Telstar]

mr.777

Yeah, all well and good regarding flight planned levels...maybe one of you RYR chaps can now tell me why your entire fleet is completely incapable of flying ATC assigned speeds on final approach? I won't hold my breath.....

A very sweeping statement. Care to be more specific, if we are thinking of the same instances, I have some very precise answers for you!

[anotherthing]

QWERTY9 et al,

I am well aware that it is in the ATCOs nature to climb aircraft - however it is in the ATCOs interest to control aircraft... if that means that traffic managers from one unit need to start imposing restrictions and telling offering units, then thats what should happen - thats part of what a good traffic manager should do.

Traffic managers form offering sectors then need to pass the message onto the tactical controllers and this needs to happen all the way down th eline - however there is other ways of doing this pre-tactically. It's not a difficult concept, however until ATCOs start to accept a bit of systemisation into their controlling, they are going to continue to continue to be 'overloaded'.

There are ways and means to ensure that specific routes or airlines or city pairs are presented to your sector in a specific manner - it can be done at unit level.

Personaly speaking, I think 'overload' is cried too often by some sectors, especially when upon checking the figures you discover that although they have one figure as a normal operating value, they often actually control 30% or 40% more traffic because they take it on i.e. if they worked the traffic they were meant to they would not be 'overloaded'.

Realistic figures are needed to run a sector correctly, then in conjunction with that aircraft should be controlled in accordance with their Flight Plan - that way aircraft enter the sectors that they are actually targetted for and that the traffic is counted in.

Traffic managers can only work on the figures they have to hand, which are based on flight plans - the FP is then targetetted to the appropriate sectors and the traffic count emerges from that - if controllers continually allow aircraft to differ wildly from their flight plan, then they cannot expect the traffic managers to protect them!

[PPRuNe Radar]

...And in fact many airlines now take a more enlightened view that staying on the flight plan allows CFMU and local network managers to predict and regulate flow more effectively.

And if we can cut the departure slot violations at LHR, we've cracked it ;)

[Itsonyatv]

If any aircraft is climbed above it's FPL level an AFP message should be sent to IFPS. If this was done every time I can assure you that FPRS section at London would be swamped!

[Gonzo]

Radar, you're preaching to the choir. I reckon we should start transferring the proposed fines to the ATCOs :E

[deci]

O'Leary has an offer for all Atco giving direct routings and highest levels..

free business class tickets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfIY24BErBE&eurl=http://www.politicaonline.net/forum/showthread.php?t=442677)

(in my sector RYR 410 or above!!)
:E

[left bass]

Did you see what he was doing with his pen while he was saying that?

Hope he wasn't acting out some bizarre fantasies.

However, ATCOs don't need free tickets - we'll all be able to afford business class whatever the price, whenever we feel like some action. Because we're all greedy, overpaid, lazy public servants.

:}

[Slo Moe]

I would rather say, that ATCOs deserve more than only respect.

[Del Prado]

Maybe we should live up to the portrait painted by a certain Mr O'Brien and do nothing out of the ordinary for his airline. No direct routes, no bending over backwards, no co-ordinating their flights through military airspace. If we are being slated, then we might as well deserve it.



It's already happening.
How many 'toss of a coin' decisions do we make every day about which aircraft to put first? Ryan air always lose out then and will continue to do so as long as their press office and CEO spout such bollox.

[fisbangwollop]

Last Monday 16th I took the Ryanair 1015 dep PK to SS. The flight was showing a 15 minute delay.After boarding the capt Declan ??????? announced that the delay was due to ATC causing the late arrival and Quote " That due to our brilliant ATC system in Scotland the delays would no doubt increase as usual during the day!!! Unquote.......would suggest next time they winge and ask for 31 arrival when 13 is duty RW they are told to **********

[Gonzo]

Not infrequently, I've been travelling and the Captain's PA has blamed ATC for a delay - although never with Ryanair, but I avoid them as much as possible. In response, I write a note to him/her asking if I can do anything to help, and include a business card. One more than one occasion the Captain has then come back on the PA and changed the story!

[eastern wiseguy]

A few chief executives ago I recall we were asked to report any delays blamed on ATC in order that they might be investigated. Might be time to reinstate that?

[Slo Moe]

There was a time, when some pilots announced that
"We are delyed because of the ATC."

I would rather say as a pilot that
"Our flight was safe and orderly and expeditious and saved fuel
thanks to the ATC."

Remember: What you say might really come true.
At least as a pilot I would like to have as direct and
smooth flight as possible.

[mr.777]

RYR probably think that being asked to fly 160 to 4 DME constitutes an ATC delay......

[Telstar]

Yet another nonsense off the cuff remark. What's your problem, did your wife run off with one of our Pilots or something?

[mr.777]

Very grown up Telstar, a great advert for Ryanir you are. I would suggest you get your backside down to Swanwick and plug in with us for the day then you might see what "my problem" is.

[Telstar]

So do something about.

Contact our company. Contact our Chief Pilot or our Safety officer, childish snipes on here aren't going to solve the problem are they?

If Pilots are willfully and deliberately ignoring any ATC instructions as you are implying and you aren't reporting them then you are just as big a part of the problem.

[Roffa]

If anyone's making childish snipes on here they're only following the lead of O'Leary :hmm:

[eastern wiseguy]

Frankly Telstar as the poster who started this I must say three things

1. I have few problems with the crews themselves. They are neither better nor worse than any other operator

2. O'Leary is a gob. To throw out a remark such as he did is a terrible sleight

3. Your level of posting is inane and peurile.Are you Leo?

[Telstar]

I probably did go after 777 a little to high handedly, but it just irritates me that he keeps popping up with remarks such as

RYR probably think that being asked to fly 160 to 4 DME constitutes an ATC delay......

It's just nonsense, it smacks of sour grapes or something similar, I can't quite tell. It's like these "A mate of a mate told me that all Ryanair Pilots are cowboys" which then turn into "fact".

Look, we all know the CEO is a plonker, but reflecting that back on the crews, the majority of which like you, strive for excellence every day and are professionals, just isn't on.

If you really feel that way 777, then report the crews. I can tell you anything of that nature coming from NATS is taken, very seriously.

[mr.777]

Sour grapes and rumours? Just in case I didnt clarify, I am actually a KK radar controller not some spotter who plays VATSIM and listens to RT all day long (no offence intended to those of you that do).
The comments I keep "popping up with", as you so quaintly put it, are based on hours spent on a radar console...I know exactly what I'm talking about, as do my colleagues who sit on SS and GW.
I never once said you were "cowboys" or anything like that, you have put those words in my mouth....you're the one who has come on here having a pop at ATC. In case you've forgotten mate, this is an ATC forum.
Your comment about "my wife running off with one of your pilots" is quite frankly pathetic....how old are you, 19???
The fact is Ryanair routinely break ATC assigned speeds on final approach. And yes, we have reported it until we are blue in the face, which means a load of extra paperwork. Or perhaps you think we just like to come on PPRUNE and moan about it for a laugh. Things like not flying 160 to 4 compromise safety and make our job increasingly difficult. But hey, not to worry, you just keep doing what you want and making smart ar*e comments that serve no purpose.

[Stan Woolley]

Mr777

When did you last do a jumpseat ride with Ryanair or any other low cost operator?

This is a two way relationship or at least it is meant to be, you are not the only people under pressure in this environment!

[mr.777]

I never said it wasn't a 2 way relationship, what I do object to is being the target of childish insults...thats hardly professional is it? As for jumpseat rides, 9/11 happened and they are now extremely difficult to get. We can get them, with some effort, from BA (who were very accomodating when I organised one this year). I have never heard let alone benefited from a jumpseat scheme from low cost carriers...equally, most of our pilot visits are from carriers such as BA and Virgin rather than low cost carriers, so it works both ways I'm afraid.

[DAL208]

I think we all need to take a step back and just remember what started this thread. O'Leary is just doing what he does. There is a reason, and a good reason why NATS have not replied....because they dont need to. O'Leary is simply using excuses and trying to blame everyone else for a harsh economic reality.
He has nothing to lose from this statement, if NATS get pissed off and treat RYR differently, then he has proved his point and we will look entirely unprofessional. If it has the opposite effect and makes ATCO's work harder for RYR worrying about what has been said, then again, RYR win. Just let it go.
Lets be honest, for all this talk about professionalism and whos more to blame etc, we are as someone previously said, all under a lot of pressure to do our jobs faster and better, not only from pilot but our companies.
ATCO's are trained to be impartial...i couldnt care a less what livery the plane has, i'll move the traffic in the most expeditious and efficient way (and safest obv), i get grief off pilots (not just RYR) but i ignore it, all atcos should...its what we are paid to do!
As another poster mentioned, regardless of the requests for further climb and shortcuts, if an a/c has not followed instruction, then there are ways of dealing with this. Although i know a good moan is always good! :ok:

We at NATS should follow our companies example and ignore it and (not in our companies example) keep doing the good job we know we do day in and day out.

DAL

[Stan Woolley]

Just to give another perspective I work for Ryanair and have made the effort to get to Southampton at my own expense and in my own time.

I am strongly of the opinion that jump seat rides need to be reintroduced too because I feel the relationship between controllers and pilots is deteriorating.

There are probably many reasons for this but all I would say is that I've been a professional pilot for 25 years and I consider this flying to be quite relentless at times particularly training low experience pilots day after day.Anyone who says it beats working for a living either hasn't done it for long or is a macho idiot.

[fisbangwollop]

Just for you RYR jockeys....as i stated in an earlier post....comments from your captains that I witnessed whilst taking the PK-SS 1015 3 weeks back are not called for or warranted "Ladies and gentlemen I would like to appologise for the late departure of the flight but has been caused by an ATC delay, and know doubt due to the fantastic ATC system we have in Scotland know doubt the delays will continue all day".....I for one know how our guys at Scottish fall over backwards to accomodate these RYR fights with direct routings and requests to use 31 at PK when the duty runway is 13.....lets then have a bit of respect for the hard work they put in to achieve these requests.

[mr.777]

I agree with you totally Stan, as would 99% of controllers, regarding jumpseat trips. I too organised one with BA in my own time and at my own expense and proved to be of massive benefit to both myself and the crew.
Is there somebody at RYR we need to contact specifically to arrange things like this? If you can provide me some contact details via PM I'd be more than happy to circulate it amongst the troops.
I realise both pilots and ATCOs can become quite defensive of their respective positions but as DAL208 says, we're all in it together. You'd probably find that if you could sit some pilots and ATCOs down together, things like final approach speeds could be resolved quickly and amicably without the need for going through management.....if only it were that easy!

[hold at SATAN]

Hey radar guys, don't forget that if our pilots friends don't fly their assigned speeds on approach and start playing catch-up, they'll be hearing this phrase a few times: "GO AROUND, I SAY AGAIN, GO AROUND, ACKNOWLEDGE!" I'm sure a few of these would start to focus their attention. I know this is much easier if there are no departures and you're packing them in and that missed approaches are a bugger with one lined up ahead for departure at SS GW and KK, but what can you do? (other than not lining one up ahead in the gap, in which case the non-complier "wins" with a timely landing clearance).

PS: this isn't ATC getting all ar$ey, this is a reality of flying faster (or slower) than you assigned speed

[Stan Woolley]

I will send a PM

[121decimal375]

Never had a problem with RYR! One of the better airlines operating in Scotland for following instructions!

[Eric T Cartman]

I have to say I'm a bit puzzled about the continual gripes concerning RYR & ATC. I've worked them since the first day they operated from Prestwick & in all that time I've never had to reposition or send around a RYR plane because they weren't doing what they were told. Neither have I had any grief when told they can't have a straight in 31 or when I give them a rotten slot.
Before anyone says I've been lucky, just remember in this job you make your own luck ;-)
Mind you, I don't work for NATS :rolleyes:

[ebenezer]

The fact is Ryanair routinely break ATC assigned speeds on final approach....we have reported it until we are blue in the face, which means a load of extra paperwork.
Perhaps you should report it via the correct NATS channel (STAR) and then you'll get feedback, follow-up action and no paperwork since it's not hard copy-based... :hmm:

Whilst the perception you have may be valid for you, the accumulated evidence doesn't show that RYR is better or worse than any other operator when it comes to flying the ATC-assigned speeds.

But if there's a problem, then report it!!

[Telstar]

I have to say I'm a bit puzzled about the continual gripes concerning RYR & ATC. I've worked them since the first day they operated from Prestwick & in all that time I've never had to reposition or send around a RYR plane because they weren't doing what they were told.

Whilst the perception you have may be valid for you, the accumulated evidence doesn't show that RYR is better or worse than any other operator when it comes to flying the ATC-assigned speeds.

But if there's a problem, then report it!!

I think that's closer to the truth. Our friend just seems to have a huge chip on his/her shoulder about the company.

[mr.777]

Change the record mate, its getting really boring now....or haven't you got anything better to do? :ugh: