Aer Lingus Redundancies

[Spearing Britney]

Aer Lingus will sack 10 pilots tomorrow with another 10 every two weeks until 86 are gone. This is despite not complying with the IALPA agreements on job and work security, seniority, leave etc. No other section of the company is facing compulsory redundancies and only the pilots have been denied the 4 weeks salary/year of service redundancy package.

The new CEO is trying to break the union and must be stopped because if these jobs go so will working conditions, already poor salaries and ultimately safety.

[Irishboy]

<a href="http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/0115/aerlingus.html" target="_blank">http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/0115/aerlingus.html</a>

[Bramble]

The new CEO is trying to break the union and must be stopped because if these jobs go so will working conditions, already poor salaries and ultimately safety.


Remember that the new CEO used to be a pilot.Talk about looking oout for your own.

Lets just hope that doesn't happen to me when I get that hot seat. LOL

[jetstar1965]

I suppose the management could do nothing and let Aer Lingus go the way of Sabena etc in which case even more pilots would be out of work.

It's not going to be pretty, but if Aer Lingus is going to survive then it must cut costs. If it doesn't succeed in cutting costs then I would suggest you start looking for a new employer. I would imagine Ryan Air will be hiring if Aer Lingus goes belly up!!

[Sir Kitt Braker]

It seems that when pilots get their ATPL - they are handed a pair of narrow focus glasses and a shotgun. Whenever their industry faces tough times, they put on their specs and aim the shotgun at their own feet. Just before they pull the trigger they shout " More jobs, higher pay- better conditions".

[gyrohead]

From to-day's Irish Indepedent.

..

Aer Lingus strike warning as 78 pilots face the chop


AER Lingus will today tell 78 pilots they are being sacked to make up the 156-pilot job cuts it needs.


If the pilots resist the euro51m rescue plan, the state airline may collapse.


Airline chief executive Willie Walsh, a former pilot, has said 60 co-pilots and 18 others of pilot grade must go - and compulsory redundancy notices will be served on some of them today.


Last night, however, pilot's union secretary Michael Landers warned that a strike ballot will begin next week if any IMPACT members are sacked. Rather than selecting 78 pilots, similar savings could be achieved by offering enhanced early retirement to 20 senior captains, he said.


He added: "Pilots have been singled out for this and refused the same terms as other airline staff. We will be recommending a vote for industrial action next week."


Airline spokesman Dan Loughrey said: "We failed to make any progress on reductions in pilot numbers, essential to the survival plan. Therefore, we will have to issue compulsory redundancy notices."


The pilots, members of the IMPACT union, are being selected on a last-in, first-out basis. They were told at a two-hour meeting yesterday the company must cut its 540 pilots by 156, and that it remains 78 jobs short of that target.


Part of their agreement allows for some involuntary redundancies. However, it is a tough measure for staff who six months ago were trying to secure a 60pc wage rise. Their agreed wage rise of about 20pc has been frozen as part of cuts.


Three months ago the airline unions agreed to participate in the plan to cut 2,056 jobs on the basis they would all be voluntary and no services would be outsourced.

<img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Spearing Britney]

Jetstar and Sir Kitt, back in your box, you dont know what you are talking about.

It is interesting how the negative comments appear, how do you answer the fact that by forgoeing their pay rise, by having an outstanding leave mountain (1700 weeks!) and by not having gone on strike the pilots have done more than any other group already. Less cost will be cut by sacking 78 from the bottom than by getting rid of the 20 skippers who want to go at the top. Be advised this is a union breaking excercise and not a business based cost saving measure. How do you answer the fact that longstanding agreements on how the pilots and airline do business are now being ignored. What is happening here is (if you are pilots) going to have a knock on effect on your jobs as a national carriers treatment of pilots filters throught he business...

[Spearing Britney]

Oh, and for the record what idiot compares a profitable (pre sep 11th) carrier with 800 million in the bank with debt riddled Sabena or Swissair. Oh I see, he's a yank...

(a deliberatley included equally stupid comment)

[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Spearing Britney ]</p>

[Sir Kitt Braker]

Britney,

"Less cost will be cut by sacking 78 from the bottom than by getting rid of the 20 skippers who want to go at the top"

I bet you hav'nt got the first idea what the "enhanced terms" for the top twenty would cost (my guess would be several million). If it was cheaper - they'd do it, no one hates unions more than they love money!

(And being so angry is bad for your health - take a deep breath followed by a cool Guinness...)

[TG910]

leave Britney alone - he sounds like an Aer Lingus pilot!!!! :) :) :)

[Idunno]

Mr. Breaker and jetstar1965 you aren't in full possession of the facts obviously. Since you aren't, why not get your facts right before jumping in with silly comments.

Some facts;

1. Aer Lingus offerred a redundancy to deal to all 6,000 staff in the airline...but barred pilots from the same deal. Instead they offerred pilots with 30 years service a maximum of £50,000, which is less than some of the office staff will receive in their redundancy cheque! Gross inequity.

2. Aer Lingus pilots have had a long standing leave of absence agreement with the company which has often helped them in the past to get rid of pilot resources, yet call on them for re-employment when required. The company has now unilaterally broken that agreement, changing the terms so that nobody would voluntarily want to take it in future.

3. The union has offerred Part Time Work or Job Sharing as options to the company. They won't even discuss it.

4. The company announced a requirement to lose 156 pilots from the books. 70 have already gone, mainly those in cadet courses but not on the payroll. The remaining 86 junior jobs would create a saving in monetary terms which is exactly equivalent to the savings generated by 20 senior pilots leaving. Hence the number Spearing Britney mentions. If the redundancy offer was open to them there would likely be well in excess of double that number prepared to go. But Aer Lingus refuses to accept this (see point 1.)

5. Management has continuously undercrewed the operation for the last number of years, leading to the inability of pilots to avail of vacation entitlements. As a result a 'Leave mountain' of 2,600 weeks has accumulated...that's equivalent to 65 man years. The figure actually rises again this year because they intend to under provision leave yet again. And still they want to make pilots redundant?

6. There is a SCOPE agreement with Aer Lingus. Which they are ignoring. The most serious abuse being their intention to place Futura aircraft in EIDW next summer to operate Aer Lingus flights. They also seem to be about to bring US pilots over to bolster numbers for the peak period.

7. In 2001, the pilots iun Aer Lingus were the only group in the airline who did not take part in strike actions. The rest of the company was closed down for three days by other unions.

8. Every group in the airline received pay rises as a result of strike actions. The pilots received nothing.

9. Pilots are on pay freeze. They will not receive the national wage award which ammounts to about 9% this year.

10. An independent arbiter was charged with benchmarking Aer Lingus pilots salaries. He had awarded the group around 20%. This will naturally not be paid, nor is it being sought from the company.
That means the pilots have already contributed almost 30% in savings since 9-11.

11. The pilot MEC has met with management over 40 times, making every attempt to find an agreed resolution. They have been stonewalled throughout.

12. Management has also presented the pilots with a massive package of working conditions demands. Everything that has been on their wish list for years is being sought...and then some.

Two months ago any reasonable guy in Aer Lingus would have said that the company needed some redundancies and work practice concessions to survive. But as time has passed doubts begin to form about their true motives, especially when there are issues of genuine inequity. It soons starts to feel like the pilot group is being scapegoated, or made into an example for the education of others within the company.

Eventually the inescapable conclusion dawns, that what is being asked is not the necessary and just demands required to save the company, but a guided missile which is meant to detonate right in the heart of the union. If they can scare enough of the members into abandoning the junior pilots to their unjust fate then they'll have succeeded in driving a wedge down the middle of the group, and the damage will be irreversible.

Thats why IALPA and the Aer Lingus pilot group must and I believe will do the right thing.

[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Idunno ]</p>

[knows]

Idunno - Those facts say it all.
Good post.

[Bearcat]

seems like IALPA are playing Mama and AL want to play Papa. From Iduunos post it sounds if IALPA better straighten up or Papa will get his elvilway! Well done Idunno!

[Steepclimb]

Reality check here for, I dunno and Britney. You have of course left out some of the best bits. The senior pilots wanted the same deal as the other staff, not surprisingly. What's 4 weeks pay per year when you earn €120,000 a year, Oh yes a nice sum indeed!
EI is not under crewed. it's over crewed, certainly compared to the deadly rivals with the blue tails across the way. Hence the need to cut more than 20 grey hairs who are ready for the golf course anyway. If Aer Lingus pilots worked the same hours as Ryanair pilots, (as surely some of them will soon,because that's where you will be going), this would not be a problem.

Go on strike by all means, that will sink Aer Lingus. That's what they want you to do. A pilot's strike cold precipitate the final collapsse of EI to be rapidly followed by a bold new Aer Lingus (2002), with wholly different conditions. Don't count on the CX being sympathetic to pilots, he's a very ex pilot.

That's the reality. we are into the endgame here, don't be manipulated into playing Russian Roulette with an automatic!

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Steepclimb ]</p>

[jetstar1965]

First Spearing Britney I don't appreciate your Yank comment. You may disagree with me and I with you, but you don't need to start calling people names based on their nationality.

I guess it all depends who's facts you believe. Obviously the pilots have a far different view of the facts than does management. From what I've read Aer Lingus is in serious trouble and it must cut costs to remain viable.

The facts are that if Aer Lingus doesn't make these cuts then it will go the way of Sabena and Swisair. If you want to ignore this that's fine. I'm sure MOL is praying that Aer Lingus pilots vote to go on strike as it will push more customers his way while adding what maybe the final nail to the Aer Lingus coffin.

Good luck you'll need it.

[sgt.culpepper]

Reality check #2. Idunno ,good posting but in the end the case you outline will mean very little.
The Public will not be interested in the fine points of your case. All they will see is an airline struggling to survive . They will have seen the 1500 voluntary severence deal by the "lower" ranks in the airline in a positive light and will not ustand why the "higher paid ranks" would threaten the rescue package with strike action.rightly or wrongly they will see it simply as greed.
To mount a successful industrial action you must have either the Media or Public opinion or preferably both on your side.In the case of Aer Lingus pilots you will have neither.You will be crucified in the media if you take strike action.
By all means keep grinding out the best deal you can but don't bet on Management giving in . You are dealing with a new phenomenon for Aer Lingus, a Chairman who has no political baggage,and has only one objective in mind , to make the airline viable . Nothing I believe will get in the way of that.

[Spearing Britney]

Jetstar my friend you are I'm afraid missing the point again. The 'deliberately included equally stupid' yank comment was to indicate just how daft it is to comapre EI and sabena/swissair.

EI senior pilot earn 120k EURO, alot less than 120k £ by the way.

Aer Lingus customers (the execs, the money makers) will not go to Ryanair, they will go to BM or BA (if they arrive) but never to Ryanair. Aer Lingus II is doubtful, where would the funding appear from? In an election year and with all that frieght to keep export economy going all possible must be done to ensure Aer Lingus I Survival. That is what WW is relying upon. Sacking pilots he has invested in will stunt possible future growth and is financially stupid. As expert external advisors have already said.

Steepclimb, its 4 weeks pay per year of service we want (capped at 2 years) or about 188K irish£ for our senior captains. Please get the basics right if a meaningful discussion is to be had.

Sgt Culpepper, I fear you may be right with one notable exception, WW doesnt worry about viable - he worries about saleable. He wants a fast buck. Viable may or may not come too...

Todays latest, he is offering pay in return for redundancies...

How does that tally with a company in supposed immediate cash crisis??

[JMCPilit]

Aer Lingus was and still is, albeit to a lesser degree, nothing more than an employment agency for Ireland. A model of nepotism. A hangout for the brown shoe brigade of ex Irish Aer Corps (a 172, Fuga Mag. and a GIV).
Unable to compete on the transAtlantic with the likes of Delta, Continental and any other carrier trying to bring tourists to the Emerald Isle, Aer Fungus is going down the same sink hole as Sabena. Both overstaffed and overcompensated.
It was not too long ago that the aviators at the Shamrock were demanding the same pay as their "brothers" in AA because this Yankie carrier was part of the Aer Lingus Alliance! Such logic. Regardless of the size of AA in comparrison to the Shamrock, the brown shoe boys felt that they were worth te same because they carried American Airlines passengers!!!! Such logic. Now they threaten to strike because the airline is cutting staff along with EVERY OTHER AIRLINE in the world. I suppose the brown shoe brigade or the railway labor leaders running the union at Aer Lingus think that they are going to win public support on this one!!! HAHAHA
If I were the pilots (the select pilots) at Aer Lingus I would choose my battles very carefully. But then again I am not an Aer lingus aviator nor do I have an Aer Corps pension.... <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Steepclimb]

Yes, Yes, Britney 4 years pay was an obvious typo, blah de blah, now corrected and clarified.

It doesn't dilute the essential point, in future there will be fewer aircraft, thus fewer pilots will be needed. Losing 20 senior Captains may work financially. But what is needed, as you well know is a complete restructuring of the airline so that it can survive. That means pilots have to take a hit too, not just the lower orders. You know there was an attempt by the pilots to swing a deal better than was offered to other staff.

I have genuine sympathy with the pilots. I'm a pilot myself. I felt really sorry for those cadets interviewed on the news who were seeing the dream slip away. A dose of the real world early in their lives. But that's the way it works. Mike O'Leary is waiting in the wings with Ireland's new national flag carrier, Ryanair. Don't let his dream come true! Your comment that Aer Lingus customers won't go to Ryanair is off beam, they've already gone. Nobody I know nowdays even considers EI for a flight. It's Ryanair first. Sure there's always the business customers. But Ryanair make a lot of money flying everyone else around.

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Steepclimb ]</p>

[Idunno]

Actually Sgt.Culpepper, after seeing some of the youngsters being interviewed on TV news last night regarding their sacking, I don't have any worries about the press or public. They did an excellent job of putting the human face on just another redundancy story. I've been called by neighbours today to say what they heard and saw has swung them behind the pilots. Thats never happened before for all the reasons you mentioned...basic begrudgery being one of the factors in the past. But this situation is so simply and grossly unfair it's changing peoples views. Remember (in case I didn't make it clear before) the pilot group are the only group suffering mandatory redundancies. Every other employee who is leaving is doing so voluntarily. With a golden handshake to boot.

No, for once we actually seem to hold the moral high ground! What a feeling.

As to the comments about 'Brown Booters' by U3K. For those of you unfamiliar with the term, that's a reference to Irish Air Corps pilots.
What IAC pilots have to do with this issue is probably obscure to every mind except that of UK3. I won't even attempt to fathom it.

By the way Steepclimb. The pilots are not looking for 'better deal' than anyone else...they are looking for the same deal as everyone else.

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Idunno ]</p>

[mens rea]

Well I got my redundancy notice in from Aer Lingus this morning.

Somebody said above that we are overcrewed. Well I regularly work 6 days in a row as do many of my collegues and I would venture to suggest that the crewing numbers were scribbled down on the back of a fag packet by a lazy management pilot.

They have decided to get rid of the cheapest pilots in the company (if not the Western world!) rather than offer all pilots the same terms as every other worker in the company. This is quite apart from the fact that some managers are getting gratuities of 200,000 euros when they leave for a job well done (sarcasm alert).

The cost of the investment already made in our training (78 pilots and the 44 cadets already let go) runs somewhere in the region of 20m Euros. Doesn't exactly make commercial sense to let 78 pilots from the bottom go to save the company a mere £2.6m. Moreover the pilot group has already saved the company £6m by not accepting the pay award that we were due.

The redundancy letter referes to the SCOPE agreement (how nice of them to acknoledge it exists). Quite apart from the discrimination isssues mentioned above in other posts, the SCOPE agreement like all other agreements has been interpreted out of existence.

The section on redundancy may be of interest,

C. Redundancy

No pilot on the seniority list will suffer involuntary redundancy or involuntary lay off prior
to the following:

1. Consultation, with a view to seeking agreement, with the Association.

2. The termination of all wet leasing

3. The voluntary or involuntary redundancy of all other pilots employed or contracted
by the Company, except as per part D, section 1.

4. The termination of all code share operations in the Company’s entire operation into
and out of the Republic of Ireland.

With the above conditions satisfied, the Company will select pilots from the seniority list for
involuntary redundancy and it will be on a ‘last in first out’ basis. Date of entry onto the
Seniority list will be the criteria used in the selection.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The company has conveniently ignored ALL four conditions and has gone straight for LIFO redundancy selection.

There will be a motion to ballot for industrial action next Wednesday.

The pilots are in no way responsible for the predicament which we find ourselves in, be under no illusion of that.
Hopefully the company will come to its senses
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[sgt.culpepper]

Spearing Brittany, I was actually referring to AL Chairman Mulcahy,rather than CEO WW.Be in no doubt it's the Chairman who is making the running, and is doing it quietly ,his way. You would be hard pressed to find a single public comment from him since his appointment.Seems to epitomise the old maxim "speak softly but carry a big stick".
Idunno, I wouldn't be lulled by a few soft TV pilot stories, the gloves are'nt off yet . The serious hitters have not come out to play yet.Picture the scenario .Pilots on picket duty while 1500 or so unfortunates are arranging farewell gigs,....not a pretty sight.
The moral ground is a lonely place and residency there is usually short lived.Best of luck but think this one out fully before embarking on any course of action.BTW am I right in thinking that the reason the deal has become mandatory is because not enough pilots applied for the voluntary package, and that the same would have happened to the rest of the staff had they not come up with the voluntary numbers.

[TG910]

Would those pilots who got laid off and are going to be laid off in the near future have problems finding pilots jobs elsewhere ? I think not but what do you think? I heard one of them on the news a few days ago saying he was "signing on the dole" in the near future! A bit drastic dont you think..?
What about experienced Airbus captains - would they have problmes finding work abroad ?
Cheers.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
Repoman,commiserations on getting the PFO letter.It's not a nice feeling but I would contend that your training and experience will get you work before too long.As for the remarks that the other sections of the company are getting a better deal than the pilots,not so.A lot of people are leaving with far less than they would have got in more normal times."Golden handshake" is not in it.As a result of the redundancies,a lot of departments will be left very understaffed and this will affect future efficiency.We in the rest of the company have also had pay freezes,overtime bans,extra work conditions imposed on us and a lot more besides,all in the name of saving EI from disaster.We also have difficulty in believing that 540 pilots for 30-odd aircraft is an acceptable ratio.On the ground,morale is very,very low,something the pilot fraternity is only now facing up to.
Best of luck
TDD

[mens rea]

[quote] BTW am I right in thinking that the reason the deal has become mandatory is because not enough pilots applied for the voluntary package, and that the same would have happened to the rest of the staff had they not come up with the voluntary numbers. <hr></blockquote>

Yes you are right. And why do you think that is? We would have come up with the "voluntary numbers" if we were afforded the same package as the rest of the staff.


TG910:

Not drastic at all, most of us only have 100hrs on type, not exactly easy to get work with that kind of inexperience. Btw the chap you heard has been in the company for 10 years and is to be let go. As for airbus captains, well just look at this weeks FI and emirates' advert. Not exactly looking for 100hr S/O's !. Anyway that's hardly the issue here. Discrimination, broken agreements and general scapegoating of the pilot body while management award themselves generous gratuities for a job well done is more the issue.

[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: repoman ]</p>

[Idunno]

This is the last comment I'm going to make on this public forum on this matter because the union MEC has asked members to refrain from further public comment (take note SB and Repoman).

The problems at Aer Lingus are not new.
Hey, you probably noticed that already, being perceptive and intelligent folks.

There have been at least two previous 'crises' in Aer Lingus during the last twenty years.
The intervening periods have usually been marked by extended episodes of 'belt tightening' followed by sudden, short lived, and poorly managed booms.

Those booms created profitable periods, which were succesively frittered away by a short sighted 'career civil servant' management who have always been out of their depth in the real world. And always at the beck and call of their politically appointed sugar daddies on the board of directors.

When the inevitable downturn happens the pilots have traditionally been the first group to be asked for sacrifices, and have repeatedly given the lead to the rest of the employees (soon becoming despised by them for that).

Year upon year these sacrifices have been demanded in the very same terms being heard yet again today...'If you don't do this the company will close'...'It's up to you to save the company'....'We need you to make these concessions to ensure survival'.

And each time the pilots have fallen for the same old crap and bailed out our inept management yet one more time, only to see them flush the effort down the toilet as they build new empires of pen pushers and overpaid hangers on in their own shoddy and unaccountable departments.

This is an airline with 6,500 employees and just 32 aircraft! And only 500 pilots! That's TWELVE employees for every pilot in the company!
The tail is wagging the dog!

So this time the knives are out and being employed on the pilot body without so much as a 'by your leave'. And they expect us to smile and say 'thank you, take another pound of flesh for good measure'.

The aim is not just to once more ensure the preservation of the incompetents who've yet again brought us to this pass....but to wreck the pilots association as a cohesive unit forever.

They could get what they want from us by negotiation...like they've always done before (saps that we are)...but to allow the destruction of our last bulwark against utter exploitation..IALPA...is Grotesque, Unbelievable, Bizarre and Unprecendented, and WILL NOT PASS.

[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: Idunno ]</p>

[mens rea]

OK but more about the morass of mediocrity in Head office that has us in this predicament.

BMI has 89 managers and admin staff per aircraft....seems quite a lot until you see how many we have......anyone hazard a guess?...

100?
150?

Actually it's 219.

End of comment: Goodbye!

[jammers]

What about the top 50 or so lads that were offered the flynn package a few years back....whereby with a 24hr break in service they were all hired back as CONTRACT CAPT'S enjoying all the same benefits they had before minus the pension contributions.....in essence raping the pension fund to the detriment of all junior to them( these senior ex. brown booters, by the way never flew anything heavier than a chipmunk in the illustrious air corp.).....so I for one am deeply saddened by the redundancies here at ALT but over the years with fewer than 20 pilots showing up to union meetings, we only have ourselves to blame.....barney's willie was trained well by the man himself, laughable and charismatic they have slowly engineered the destruction of pay and working conditions and the near extinction of this once proud airline.....

[happy-cappy]

Well whatever way you see it, dont strike ...... remember sabena!

[DomMan]

I have no sympathy whatsoever with guys whinging that they are being made redundant with 'only' 100hrs on type.

Get a grip. You got £60,000 of free training followed by a free £20,000 type rating. You then get given some line flying, a salary and a redundancy package. Contrast that with the thousands out there who paid their own way through and sat on the dole just lik you will be. You don't see many of them whinging. They are over on Wannabes getting constructive and pro-active.

Its all very well 'wanting to be a pilot' as long as Aer Lingus are writing the cheques and setting you up with work down the road. Lets see how you cope now its you who has to fund your licences and the next job might be based 4,000 miles away. I bet half the cadets leave aviation rather than knuckle down to it.

Dom

[CAT MAN]

Enough already...

There have been some excellent posts from various contributors to this thread.

It is ALWAYS a nasty experience for anybody to lose their source of income and deepest commiserations to anybody in this position

Any contributors care to comment...


1)31 Aircraft 500+ pilots,on an industry average should there be more like 400 pilots?

2)How did it ever get to the stage where so much leave was owed to such a small group, allowing that the most junior people had probably not even joined yet?

3)While some are critical of past shortcomings of management,Isn't a good management move to pear down numbers which are a drain on resources?

4)If 80 of the most highly paid pilots were to leave voluntarily wouldn't this consume money that could be spent elsewhere?

5)A previous contributor mentioned that s/he had worked 6 consecutive days,Does everybody work this hard?


Good luck to everyone in the future...

[Steepclimb]

Fair point Idunno, incompetant management etc. I know it well, I've been around long enough.
But as for wanting the same deal as everyone else? I think I and others spelt out the reasons why pilots can't get the same deal as everybody else. 20 pilots on €120,000 pa equals €4.8 million, 40 is €9.6. Need I go on? It's unaffordable. That's the reality. Going on strike won't conjure up this money. No management good, bad or incompetant could take the gamble that would result in those kind of numbers being paid out.
Those of you who are being let go, there are two groups of people blameworthy in this, management and quite frankly your fellow but senior aviator colleagues who want to walk away with a quarter of a million big ones and are not prepared to compromise.
Do you really want to go on strike for them?

The significant word here is 'COMPROMISE' that's what's going to happen.

The junior pilots are a pawn in the game as ever. I remember the last big downturn in the early eighties, most of the cadets back then spent years , working as clerks or delivering brochures to Travel Agents. They are the senior pilots now, but seem to have short memories.

It's fair to say the rest of the airline will remain stuffed to the gills with excess baggage. I often wonder just exactly what half those people in the HOB are doing? More of those will definitely have to go.

Well if nothing else it will be interesting to watch from outside,(for a change).

[maxalt]

Another 500 pilots on the Euro market?
I don't think we need it.
There's already enough pressure on wages and jobs.

Still...you guys better think of a way to put a stop to the gallop of your new managers. They've definitely got it in for ya!

Kick 'em in the nuts.

G'luck.

[brain fade]

Alright, I'LL say it. ('cos no one else has!)
If the company is in the *****, sack the pilots, cabin crew and the other workers LAST!
Start by sacking as many of the 'management' as you can without affecting the operation.
Here is a 'mission statement'.
"Its Aer Lingus's business to fly people from A to B. It's the business of those who don't to support those who do"
QED

[maxalt]

Heyyyy...SteepClimb! You're a manager aintcha? I think he's talkin 'bout you!
Why doncha take that advice and blow yer brains out you dork.

[Pilotincomplete21]

10 pilot redundancies is not where it began. Aer Lingus already sacked 40 cadets that were on average 80% through their training in Oxford and Jerez.
156 pilots is the figure management initially stated as being their target. The axe is only beginning to fall. Agreements that protect pilot jobs are being ignored. To facilitate the vacuum created by sacked pilots working conditions are soon to be savaged. Management is looking to make all pilots working conditions equal to the worst of the low-cost carriers; for frozen Aer Lingus pay . And Aer Lingus pay is far below par (management apparently boasts at international seminars how low the pilot body is paid)

Those to be let go in the coming weeks all earn less than Irish punt £25k, and have less than 150 hours. They are the cheap. It is not an exaggeration to say that most will sign up for the dole. After 2 and a 1/2 years training and many leaving good careers, others foregoing university, and some recently married with mortgages, the dole is not something that was ever expected.

Never before has the pilot body been issued compulsory redundancies. Unpaid leave, temporary alternative employment, voluntary redundancy, early retirement have always been the avenues explored and utilised successfully in the past. Management has for some reason no intention of promoting or indeed in some cases even offering these deals. The offers that are on the table are an insult. Pilots have been offered a deal actively discouraging anyone to leave. Every other part of the workforce in AL has been offered equal terms; but not the pilots.

Would you put up with this?

[Steepclimb]

To be blunt: SHUT UP Maxalt.
I'm interested in Aer Lingus surviving, you on the other hand, given your employer, would rather it went away.
No I'm not management, with my attitude it would never work, strictly an agitator me!

[maxalt]

Awwww...Steepy...did I upset you? Poor baby.. .I seem to recall you having a go at moi just last week for merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the ALT mismanagement who can't seem to run a **** up in a brewery, yet produced an in-flight mag article about "success in business".

Ok, you're not a member of the mismanagement you say. So why'dya get so touchy then, huh? Huh???

Did you write the bleedin' article yerself or wha'? :) <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Ontheairwaves]

IDUNNO. .for once you seem to be making some real comments rather than your usual snide comments about the US carriers......tough when the shoe is on the other foot now eh?????

Well i was at home when those poor wee cadets were interviewed.....do i feel sorry that they want to stay and get a few more hours to make themselves more marketable.....NO i don't.

They were taken on as cadets....had their training paid for them in Oxford or even in the US in Battlecreek....and then back for your type conversion and out onto the line.... .With ALT sacking them...they've no bond and are free to go looking for another job....the cadets that were cut from Oxford were well looked after by the likes of PARC etc....so i don't think these few poor 200hr on type pilots will have a problem getting employment elsewhere..... .It seems that IALPA were using them to gain the sympathy vote from JOE PUBLIC....

I have been cut from 2 different airlines in my career(1 going bust and the other redundancies) so i guess if these poor pilots have to go back to N.Ireland to flip burgers for a while well then tooooo bad.....it might bring them back down to reality.

IDUNNO ...i guess you are one of those smug ALT pilots and you will probably vote for Strike on Wed......well then let the company sink....yes you took pay cuts....but the company still isn't out of the woods....DAL furloughed 400 pilots and ALPA didn't call a strike....why....not because they are dumb yanks....but because they know that when the business gets better those 400 will be back in the ranks....but my fellow dumb paddys can only see to their next pay package and can't seem to work with the CX and make the company more viable....

My advice for what it's worth is.....STOP squabbling and scrounging for money take your cuts and try to make the company work and survive...if not then strike and let it go down the road of Sabena...there has to be some give and take....if it means taking another pay freeze and pay cut then do it....or else park your planes now........ .MOL is probably rubbing his hands with glee but he's a cowboy and really ALT needs to preserve the Shamrock...

[Steepclimb]

Max I'm only touchy when I'm being insulted by someone who doesn't care to voice a valid and mature opinion and who resorts to childish abuse. Other than that I'm a happy camper. . .Your memory is faulty too, wasn't me on that thread.

. .Anyway, back to the point, now that positions have been set, we can expect a bit of horsetrading between management and union, while the redundancy notices hang over the heads of the pilots with the lowest seniority. The cadets and others without contracts are gone anyway, so don't get your hopes up.

I don't believe there will be a strike, 'Averted at the last minute', I suspect will be the phrase used on the six o'clock news.

[maxalt]

Hey Ontheairwaves...you sound like a lovely guy. I hope you've applied for a job with us at Ryanair. You're just the material MOL needs.

What's wrong? Can't afford the application fee? . .Tell ya what, I'll loan ya the £50. Ok mate?

Steepclimb I'm gonna have to get back to you on that. Twas ye alright.

[Joyce Tick]

Hey maxalt - why did you sign your last post "dork" - shouldn't do yourself down, mate.

[maxalt]

ahhhh....they're gangin' up on me now. Lies, damn lies and accusations. :)

[climbs like a dog]

Not a good time to be made redundant by any carrier. Didn't make it past the interview day with AL a few years ago and looking at some of the posts here, I'm sort of glad I things broke as they did.

Out of curiosity, what sort of joining date puts a pilot below the cut-off point for the redundancy?

[Ontheairwaves]

MAXALT. .sorry Ryanair not my thing...... .I actually left Ireland 14yrs ago and got a job. .eventually with UAL....you may have heard of us. .Although may not be around for much longer...still. .if i was going to go to the Cheap flight carriers my choice would be Southwest...whom i think Ryanair model their crappy service on?????. .Well there ya have it lad...although i AM enjoying the news while i'm still at home...good to see ALT pilots coming down from their ivory towers....... . :) :) :) <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[farrenfour]

"It soons starts to feel like the pilot group is being scapegoated, or made into an example for the education of others within the company."

But thats normal procedure for anyone at Aer Lingus , is it not?

Can't comment on overcrewing, but what I can comment is on the incompetent management, got all caught up in the celtic tiger boom of the last 5 years, and made no allowances. Poor show.

No more champer din-dins at fitzers I see <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Besides little has changed in attitude at cunning in the last two decades , worst misfortune was was bernie falling of his boat along with 911

[sgt.culpepper]

farrenfour, not sure I agree with you about Bernie. I don't think history will be that kind to him and his stewardship of AL.Particularly in the last four years.After all he did preside over an airline which ,it seems, can sustain 1600 redundancies.