Manchester Lockdown?

[Mahaba]

Two points really;

1. Although MACC AREA guys knows it's hard to get out of the centre unless on promotion, something else seems to be happening. If they apply for a position to escape the move and pass an assessment, we suspect that, because the new unit cannot be given a release date, then the successful applicant is being told he/she is actually being told they have been unsuccessful. If this is true then NATS is reneging on their promise to give every assistance to people not wanting to go to NPC. Strange that!

2. Trawl for Swanick guys to MACC - we'd be amazed if anyone took this up - why?
- BAND 4 - £15k/yr pay cut.
- AAVA - less per day
- CENTRE - no gym/ sports hall!
- LOCATION - nice loooooooong walk from car park to work.
- STAFFING - always short.
- LEAVE - always a tight one.
- EQUIPMENT - Outdated.
- PROSPECTS - NPC.

- Like i say - we'd be amazed. We're mostly all digging as many tunnels as we can but as that means we'll be lost to the company - taking our experience & ability with us. What are NATS doing about it? Trawling Swanick!!

Wonder if the European ANSP's kow if they can fill their staff shortages with experienced NATS MACC guys relatively quickly?

- We accept the move is coming but NATS must accept that by forcing this move on us - most guys would rather go somewhere they would want to be - ME, CANADA, EUROPE (?) than somewhere they wouldn't and i would respectfully suggest that trawling Swanick guys is both not the answer and an insult to their intelligence.

[BwatchGRUNT]

You have my sympathy if point 1 is happening.

With regard to the rest, I was at the college ten years ago and would have loved to get a posting to MACC at whatever the cost - at the end of the day we are and always will be a mobile grade.

I took my posting to LATCC as an extra chance to validate, if I failed hopefully I would have been posted to MACC. Now that you are moving to NPC I think I am glad I am where I am, but at the end of the day I have missed out on all my friends and family for 10 years not being round the corner as they would have been - I grew up in Heald Green.

You have had 10 years living in a fantastic area of the world and now need to move on to what I am sure will be as good a location as SwanWick. Banging on constantly about not wanting to go will hardly endear you to your new colleagues.

MOBILE GRADE - it will have been in the original job description!!

- BAND 4 - £15k/yr pay cut. - DUE TO BE ADDRESSED AFTER UNION MOTION
- AAVA - less per day - DON'T DO THEM IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT
- CENTRE - no gym/ sports hall! - HAVE YOU EATEN IN OUR CANTEEN?
- LOCATION - nice loooooooong walk from car park to work. - HOUSE PRICES?
- STAFFING - always short. - DITTO
- LEAVE - always a tight one. - YOU THINK WE CAN HAVE WHAT WE WANT?
- EQUIPMENT - Outdated. - THANK YOURSELF LUCKY YOU AVOID iFACTS
- PROSPECTS - NPC - WHAT'S SO BAD ABOUT THAT?

[250 kts]

Mahaba,

And the evidence of the 1st claim is?????? Is it not the case that 4 people at MACC have just been given dates to move to Swanwick to take up promotions?

Like it or not NATS has a business to run and the release of staff has to be when they can realistically be allowed to go without having a massive affect on that business-tough I know but part of the new world in which we operate.

Once again you start a thread just like on January 11th suggesting that you are being treated differently and unfairly compared to everyone else.

2. Trawl for Swanick guys to MACC - we'd be amazed if anyone took this up - why?
- BAND 4 - £15k/yr pay cut.- Voted in by a very large majority of staff
- AAVA - less per day-don't do 'em if you don't like the rate
- CENTRE - no gym/ sports hall!-really an issue at a place of work?
- LOCATION - nice loooooooong walk from car park to work.-you won't want to do it more than you have to then,give the AAVAs a miss. Resolved at NPC
- STAFFING - always short. And we aren't????
- LEAVE - always a tight one. I would suggest the new regime at LACC is the tightest at any unit now
- EQUIPMENT - Outdated. Resolved at NPC
- PROSPECTS - NPC. Sorts out the car park and equipment issue

The grass isn't always greener on the other side. I have every sympathy with you folks having to move against your will but NATS seem to be recognising the problems,albeit at this late stage and at least trying something different. I'm assuming that you would take a move south if someone expressed interest in moving to MACC and then on to Prestwick despite it being such a ridiculous idea?

I'm sure there are places in Europe that could be filled by MACC guys but they are relatively rare unless you have the ability to speak the local language for internal co-ordinations. I believe the Spanish require level 6 proficiency for example.

[ImnotanERIC]

its harsh if point 1 is happening.

But as for the rest,
our leave is rubbish,
i would like more for an aava,
i want band 9,
if im at work before 12 i cant park on the road, which means at least another 22-24 secs to the front door.
our canteen sucks balls.

[Fidgell]

250,

- BAND 4 - £15k/yr pay cut.- Voted in by a very large majority of staff

Who were the "large majority of staff"????? The guys that get it?

Anyone who didnt get it want it???

[250 kts]

It's called democracy. If I remember rightly it was around an 80% turnout with a 68% in favour. I'm sure I'll be corrected if these figures are wildly inaccurate.

I don't for one minute believe that all of the present Band 5 ATCOs voted for it-indeed I didn't, just as I don't believe all of the other band ATCOs voted against what has been around a 35% rise in basic over 6 years.

[Loxley]

And yet again the banding issue rears its ugly head :rolleyes::zzz:

[Gonzo]

Who got a pay cut.......??

[anotherthing]

Very good question Gonzo - beat me to it...

Didn't notice that our Unions had negotiated pay cuts for us in the recent past - must be missing something... not.

If he/she runs true to form, Mahaba will disappear for several months again, before coming back with another whinge that when refuted, he/she runs from :ugh:

[250 kts]

Now I'm not one to defend Mahaba, but....:eek:


If you read it carefully the pay cut would be for someone moving from Band 5 to 4.

Ok defence over::D However in true Mahaba fashion I guess this is absolutely the worst case scenario and would not actually be the case for someone, say, 5 points up the scale. Unfortunately I don't have the scales to hand.:=

I suspect there will actually be plenty of people at Swanwick who, for whatever reason, will be happy to take a move north.

Mahaba can we please have the evidence of people being over looked for promotion as you allege is the case or once again are you a "one post pony"?:ugh:

[9th Dan Vectors]

1. I don't know if this is true or not. I would hope it isn't, but the obvious necessity to have a reasonable compliment of staff at nPC is glaring at the moment. We've been told MACC moving in 2010 is inevitable whatever the number.

2.
-It's about a £9.5k/yr pay difference (The way it has been justified for Area units upsets us, not the right of Band 5 guys to be paid that much, although they were the majority). I don't know how the differences for airfields are justified (fairly or not) but the gap below us shouldn't be that much either.
-AAVA 10% difference (again how do you justify it?), although at £500 they can be hard for some to turn down on principle.
-No gym/sports hall at NPC either. Mr Barron told us after 9/11 it was a cost saving necessary to help get the new building back on track; although it seems allowances were made for the CTC.
-Parking, correct, resolved at nPC; still a pain now though.
-Staffing, yes everyone is short. In percentage terms for ACCs (due to our size) we are shortest but many of our staff hold validations on the opposite bank to their main one, hence we usually cope. Again I'm just stating facts here and I know ATCOs at the other Centres hold more than the minimum requirement. It would be intersting for a transparent comparison of average time plugged in and out per shift.
-Leave, probably all in the same boat across NERL here.
-Equipment, not resolved at nPC for several years after O date. Possibly no benefits at all, moving traffic wise. I don't know much about iFACTS but MODE S (which we now have) is a welcome improvement.
-Prospects, hoping to make lots of new friends with the ScOACC guys. I know I'll lose (on a day to day basis) many good friends who won't be going (not to mention the EGCC guys).

Whinge or not, we have a genuine gripe with pay that is often belittled on this forum. It can't be justified but it seems those above us think we shouldn't get it and those at airports below us resent us mentioning it, somewhat understandably. Yes we got a pay rise. It is the principle and the stigma of the difference that is galling.

A forced move from Swanwick to Prestwick (via Manchester) would upset many people down South. It is not or should not be an impossibility. You already know you're a mobile grade. I'm sure for the unlucky ones they'll quickly understand our point of view.

It would be a disgrace though when you've already moved from London to Southampton.

[250 kts]

9th,

Good post.

But let's not get hooked up on the banding which has been done to death on here.

Mahaba is suggesting that staff are not being treated fairly when going for promotion-evidence please.

Plus a whole load of other issues which he thinks are peculiar to MACC-which are not.

I'm sure we all await his reply with baited breath. And I'm probably not alone in thinking that he does the MACC cause absolutely no good at all. If he can't even be a+sed to get the salaries right then what else is cr*p?? More sensible posts from the MACC jury please.:ok:

[anotherthing]

9th Dan

I'm with 250Kts on this. Mahaba crawls out of his/her/its' hole every so often, lobs in a grenade, then retreats with no more sign of him/it.

The last time it was a completely wrong statement that people, understandably, took issue with.

This time there is a statement about promotion - how true it is I do not know, but already it has been stated that some MACC people have recently been promoted and moved as a result.

If there is an overall trend of sitting on promotions at MACC because of manpower, then it is outrageous and the union should be involved right away.
However as stated, other differences or issues aside, Mahaba does MACC absolutely no favours with its comments. I'm beginning to think I might work alongside Mahaba at Swanwick in TC, the amount of misinformation it seems to be spreading!!

[321now]

- EQUIPMENT - Outdated.

Hmm... the NODE-M display software isn't that bad compared to the Swanwick IBM stuff, surely?

It's just as old.

Granted the VccS kit is getting on.

[ZOOKER]

A friend in the industry has made it known that Manchester controllers have been invited to clean up litter in Prestwick on their days off. Will the income they receive from this help to redress the pay differential with their colleagues at Swanwick?

[sr562]

You guys should try working for NSL where the paper clips and pens are rationed.

[flower]

And as for gym and sports halls at many NATS NSL units :rolleyes:

[throw a dyce]

It's called cycling to work.:cool:

[Gonzo]

...Or the 480-odd stairs one climbs when the lifts go u/s....again.....and again.....and again....

[Fly Through]

Could have sworn I saw a NATS forum on hear, somewhere.

[ImnotanERIC]

i didn't hear it? there is one here though.

[anotherthing]

Correct, there is a NATS forum wear(sic) this would probably be better placed as anyone outside NATS will not have anything useful to contribute to the thread.

However Mahaba, the thread starter, likes to air dirty laundry in public - and quite often when doing so throws out false information like confetti :ugh:

[250 kts]

Maybe the OP has been gagged by his MACC colleagues as he comes out with the same Bullsh*t in person as he does on here.:D:D:D

[wizad]

2. Trawl for Swanick guys to MACC - we'd be amazed if anyone took this up - why?
- BAND 4 - £15k/yr pay cut.... and about £50k less for a house
- AAVA - less per day... not been offered one in 6 months
- CENTRE - no gym/ sports hall!..... ah bless.
- LOCATION - nice loooooooong walk from car park to work..... then run, its quicker and no need for a gym.
- STAFFING - always short.... as is every unit
- LEAVE - always a tight one.... as is every unit and we are currently only allowed 6 days each between october and feb.
- EQUIPMENT - Outdated.... you should try VCCS
- PROSPECTS - NPC.... welcome to the wankpit.

quit yer moaning. we are a mobile grade, we all had to move last year to southampton at which most would have liked to stay where they were, friends, family etc... but get on with it you big girl. if you dont like it, leave.... no, thought not.
i can never decide if im amused or bored by MACC bringing up how hard done by and how hard they work and should be band 5... youre not and you dont. the only way you will get band 5 is if LATCC gets a juicy band 6.

[9th Dan Vectors]

wizad

I hope this post is intended to elicit a reaction and not a demonstration of your ability to construct sentences.

Your empathy for others and the respect for your peers at other units is severely lacking. Please, humour me (don't worry about boring me - I work at a quiet sub-centre) by attempting to prove you are not ignorant by justifying your 'juicy' pay differential. Try and use capital letters at the start of the sentence and maybe include some fact based evidence why you believe what you believe.

Thanks also, as just when I'd started to feel embarrassed at some of the posts from my MACC colleagues, you arrived to let your side down too.

[ZOOKER]

Good post 9th Dan.
I thought GCSE English Language was a minimum requirement for ATC. Obviously 'wizad' is not a controller or assistant as he/she has demonstrated total incompetence in this department. :E

[wizad]

blah blah blah... this is a forum and not a GCSE english competition.
why is it when you dont like what someone has posted and cant think of any decent warranted reaction you decide to hit those who couldnt give a monkeys about that crap on a forum where it hurts.... spelling, grammar and punctuation.... ooooh how it hurts :ok:
when some moron starts a thread on here moaning about all that crap with regards to moving what reaction do you expect from others who have already had to move?
the MACC move up north is hardly new information, what is it, 6 years youve known? 2 words: 'mobile' and 'grade'.
i can understand its not easy, but to fight it all the way isnt going to win any popularity contests, not least with the guys at scottish who im sure enjoy where they work and live.
and as for banding, i would happily take band 4 pay for what you could buy a house up there for. if you want to come to LATCC and get spanked all day for an extra couple of grand a year (as thats what it is unless your stomping the top of the payscale) then go for it. but i know plenty of people who failed here, moved up north, and got a bigger house on a trainees salary.
and if you are going to shoot me down, you might as well include the handful of others replying whove stated similar.

now all you english teachers get your red markers out :E

[ZOOKER]

wizad,
Tell us, does the "all day spanking" take place in the gym/sports hall?
I believe there may be people out there who would pay handsomely for this service.

[wizad]

in the coffee lounge, we have very accommodating canteen staff.
cant say management approve, they are a bit on the conservative side these days :ok:

[9th Dan Vectors]

wizad

I would imagine you are a poor listener in person as you appear not to have read much of what I have posted recently on this forum.

All I asked was you to answer my specific question about banding. Stating you are 'spanked all day' doesn't cut it. I'm just looking for some reasoned debate.

Have you ever visited MACC to compare what we do? Are LTC and LAC equal in your mind? Are the LTMA Approach sectors equal in your mind? On a unit basis is your quietest sector busier than our busiest? What does busy mean?

Are your views based on hearsay or the culture at Swanwick that blindly assumes we are a backwater? I don't mind how you spell on here really, but it demonstrates to me that you do not seem willing to take your time and really think about what you want to say or how it'll be perceived.

As previously stated, I am aware we are a mobile grade and I'm also resigned to moving North. I have never trained at another unit either. I have never felt that the move from London to Southampton was easy for everyone. I would imagine for many staff and their families it may still be difficult.

Surely you can have some empathy for the problems some of us will face?

What annoys me is what appears (prove me wrong) to be an ignorant individual who clearly has a dislike for MACC controllers.

However, reading your rant it seems you perceive cost of living to justify the differential in pay maybe. I hope the next pay round is based along those lines, as basing it on traffic (without adequately accounting for staff) will continue the divisive and unjust mess we are in now. And continue to misinform and wrongly validate your prejudices.

Maybe banding has been done to death and it bores people but this vitriol directed at us for feeling hard done by without providing any intelligent comments is sickening.

Am I wrong? Is wizad representative of Swanwick ATCOs?

[wizad]

1)im not a bad listener.

2)yes i have been to MACC, and Scottish... i have friends at both. some failed here and are now valid and some transfered at their request.

3)we are all busy at some times, im not arguing that.

4)i spent, as im sure many years at college and uni where spelling etc had to be spot on so on forums like this i dont care for it much.

5)as stated, we moved last year and can understand and empathize with those who are yet to do it... but constantly moaning about it on here wont help others' views. the same as banding and your move taking over things like trm (that i have been to). if you look from our point of view, anytime we have courses like that or do a unit famil, anyone whos not band 5 seems to feel the need to moan their arses off at us. i know its an issue, but its bloody boring.

6)i have no dislike for MACC controllers, i dislike any groups of individuals who constantly moan about the same thing. all to often all we hear is either the banding issue, which i may point out i didnt bring up on this thread or relocation to scotland... it gets a bit boring and starting a thread of how hard done by we are again wont help. but its a forum so in reality it doesnt matter and if its a mere means of venting frustration then so be it.

7)i do not percieve the cost of living to be the factor in pay. if i, and many in our ops room could run things, sectors such as luton, thames, essex etc shouldnt get band 5 pay... and to be honest if you guys were in our ops room you WOULD be getting band 5.

management dont have the balls to sort out the banding in the ops room so we all get paid the same... thats the joke. let alone any other like issue across nerl.

W

[anotherthing]

I have to endorse point 7 of Wizads post - if MACC was at Swanwick, you would get Band5 pay. Whether it was justified is another matter... there are validations in Swanwick which do not compare to some of the other Band5 validations.

They are mainly approach validations, as the quieter area validations tend to be a second, unpaid for and as far as Minimum Unit Requirement is concerned, unrequired validations.

We do have some people who do one non-core sector - often because that was the only training seat available at the time and they are waiting to train on a core sector as a second validation, though sometimes because that is all that the person is capable of. Is that right - of course it's not. Is it right that those people without Minimum Unit Requirements should be OJTIs? Of course it isn't if its down to ability. Unfortunately due to weak management, it does happen.

I know that the quietest sector at Swanwick will be way quieter than the busy ones at Manchester or Scottish, but banding is based on core validations (or was supposed to be).

As for general traffic levels and complexity, I'm afraid that friends I know who have been valid at Swanwick and West Drayton who have since transferred at their request have all said that the overall mix of complexity and traffic levels is less at their new unit. Not one has said otherwise.

It's not a willy waving contest, if you search all my posts you will see I agree that the way banding has been worked out is wrong, though I do believe in the principle of it - understandably, it's the people at the lower bands who complain about the pay of those above them - thats human nature, but in a very simplistic way, why should we all be paid equal when we have such a wide range of workload levels?

Back to the real issue of this thread - is there any truth about Mahabas 1st claim re sitting on promotions? If so have the union been involved? If not, why not?

[eastern wiseguy]

Wizad

i do not percieve the cost of living to be the factor in pay.



Yet this comment would seem to be in odds to that opinion



and as for banding, i would happily take band 4 pay for what you could buy a house up there for.

EW Band 2 grunt....

[ImnotanERIC]

iz it coz i iz northern?