GA Landing Technique...

[Lew747]

Hey Everybody,

Forgive me if this has been already posted by someone else but i cant find any info so here i go...

Basically, my landing technique (Cessna 152) has been gettin progressively worse than it has before. I'm 17 going on 18 and at the moment dont fly often enough really to give good continuity in my lessons with my instructor.

I either do not bring the nose up on touchdown to initiate a good flare with the main landing gear (ending with a rather flat hard thump) or have trouble co-ordinating the ailerons and rudder, especially in X-wind conditions to provide a wings level touchdown causing me to stray across the runway touching down with only 1 wheel (which can be quite nerve-racking!)

I was hoping some of you more experience lot out there could give me some tips to ensure a more smooth landing? ( I know about 'keeping the picture' and 'looking up the far end of the runway') but i seem to loose all that thought just before touchdown.

Hope you can help (and hope this is in the right forum!)

Lewis

[Lasiorhinus]

First of all, in a crosswind landing, you're supposed to land with one wheel first... depending on the strength and direction of the wind, its entirely possible this will result in you touching one main, then the nosewheel, and then the other main wheel. This is very disconcerting the first few times, but then you get used to it.

For the flare, you might find it helpful to visualise flying the main wheels down to the runway, making sure to keep the nose wheel out of the way until later. From your post, it didnt sound like you have a problem actually doing the flare, more of a problem in remembering that you have to flare.

Ask your instructor to remind you to flare, every time you land, for about two weeks. From then on, they can remain quiet, but in your head, you will still hear their voice saying "flare", and you will remember to flare.

Also get your instructor to demonstrate some one-wing-down crosswind landings. In heavy jets, you will have to crab, instead, but in a lighty, putting a wing down is by far the easiest way, because there is no need to worry about performing a dance with the controls to straighten up and level your wings while you're half a foot off the runway. Just go ahead and land one wheel first.

Even in a low-wing aircraft, you will not clip the wingtip on the ground. There is plenty of room.

[Mariner9]

It is the right forum, but in my view you will not learn to land from written advice. (Though you will no doubt get many replies to this thread)

Talk (& listen) to your instructor, and it will come to you with time.

[RTN11]

In my early stages of training I had real problems with landing. It delayed my 1st solo by about 5 hours.

If the approch is good, the flare becomes a lot easier. If you are set up correctly, at the right speed with the right rate of descent, and central on the runway all you have left is the flare and plenty of time to think about it. It's when you're not quite central, or too fast, or too high that thinking about flaring becomes an nightmare.

Once your set up correctly I always look to the end of the runway, then use periferal vision to see myself sinking. Then bring the nose up to protect the nosewheel and a nice gentle touchdown follows.

It may be worth spending some time just sitting in the aircraft on the ground so you get a feel for how low you are with the wheels on the gound. Then it is easier to set up a flare attitude where you don't land nose first.

As has been said before, landing one wheel at a time in a cross wind is fine, and many consider it good airmanship to do so.

[mack 1]

Lew 747
I am a flying instructor and hold a FATPL/IR.
I have never instructed anyone to land one wheel first and disagree that you are supposed to, however should this suit Lasiorhinus that is fine.
I do not know how long your runway is however, when I have a student with this problem I perform a very low app and go round. I hold the aircraft off the ground at just a few feet and then get the student to continue for the runway lenght about 1 mile. This has always sorted the problem out. the same can be done in a crosswind to keep the plane over the centre line. hard work a good lesson and great fun.
It does all just click, make sure above all else that you enjoy yourself as that is what it is all about. This is paramount with my students.

[Lasiorhinus]

Mack, just for interest, how do you land in a crosswind?

[Piper.Classique]

depending on the strength and direction of the wind, its entirely possible this will result in you touching one main, then the nosewheel, and then the other main wheel.

Um. I mostly fly conventional gear but surely it should be one mainwheel (preferably the into wind one;)), then the second mainwheel, THEN the nosewheel? And hold off after the flare please, don't just let it all fall on to the ground in an untidy heap.

[BartV]

mack 1, you are one of those instructors that thinks landing a 777 and a GA plane is the same technique, shame on you, it IS NOT!

Landing on one wheel wing down in the wind in crosswind landings is the way to go with GA planes.

[Piper.Classique]

Landing on one wheel wing down in the wind in crosswind landings is the way to go with GA planes

mostly
depends
some a/c run out of aileron too soon, some have large wingspans that preclude this technique
Some a/c are hard to land by kicking off the drift due to the induced roll created by a bootful of rudder
Some like to drop the nose when you kick off the drift
Some have all these problems
some conventional gear a/c are hard to control in direction once the tail is down (which is why airfields used to be more or less square)
Some nosedraggers won't steer until the nosewheel is firmly on the ground (DR400 comes to mind)

Please don't assume that YOUR technique came carved on stone slabs along with the ten commandments.
There, now that I have upset everyone I will go off and catch a boat.

[mack 1]

It is not possible to give a defintive approach as all airports are different however, if possible have a long as possible final to establish the real crosswind and crab into it. This will change as you lower and on the ground. Keep crabbing all the way down with the centre line extending to between your legs this does bring you right down in the middle. Bring the plane down and flare like this, just before touch down opposit rudder to bring straight, it does work very well as I have been given students that other instructors were having trouble with and two lessons sorted. The first being the low app and go round. Its all about staying calm and making sure that the student is always enjoying what they are doing even if it is hard work.

[Lew747]

Thanks for your replies so far.

Being fascinated by aviation from such a young age, and always watching big jet aircraft land, it always assumed to me, when starting my flying lessons, that a mile or so from touchdown you would have the airplane in a nose high attitude, and once over the threshold, reducing power and bring the nose up more to increase the flare...obviously i see this is not the case, however i have not tried such a thing to see if that works or not. :rolleyes:

I guess it's just a case of practice make perfect! Looks like i'll be spending some more time in the circuit...


Oh and for those interested, the airport is Lydd, in Kent (UK)- EGMD, Asphalt Rwy- 4900ft....737's are capable of landing on it, not 152's piloted by myself d'oh :ugh:

[Lasiorhinus]

Um. I mostly fly conventional gear but surely it should be one mainwheel (preferably the into wind one;)), then the second mainwheel, THEN the nosewheel?

Most of the time.

Unless you've got a strong crosswind, then it's definitely possible to have the nosewheel second.

This is not going to happen all the time - it's not going to happen very often. When it does, the second mainwheel touches down not very long after the nosewheel...

[Parsnip]

Lew
When I started to fly circuits I could never sort out a proper, wing down into wind, one main wheel first, landing no matter how hard I tried.
An ex RAF tornado pilot was helping out at the school one weekend and gave me an hour of his very valuable time.He taught the crab approach and kick it straight with the rudder just before touchdown, and I had no problem.I used the same technique in the GFT and had no bother with the examiner.Since then I have persevered with the wing down approach and it improves gradually
thats just my tuppenorth, try asking your instructor to help you with different methods

[cats_five]

<snip>
at the moment dont fly often enough really to give good continuity in my lessons with my instructor.
<snip>

Surely this is the nub of your problem? If you can sort this out then I suspect the landings will sort themselves out.

[jxk]

How hard did you have to kick the rudder?

[Lew747]

This is probs the main reason? But it would/was nice to recieve some tips from others as to how they might go about do it.

At the moment being a student...I have very few monies :sad:

[Them thar hills]

FWIW with a wing down landing you know before you land that you have enough rudder to point the nose along the runway, because you're already doing just that.
With a crabbing approach there's more skill and timing required to squeeze off the drift in the hold-off. Most tailwheelers have decent sized rudders so taking off the drift isn't a problem. With Jodels, a wing down landing isn't such a good idea as the dihedral rib is already quite close to the ground, I see no benefit in reducing this distance even more.....
tth

[slam525i]

FWIW, here's my technique. I crab in after turning final until about 300 feet, then switch to a slip (wing-down) so I have plenty of time to stabilize it before I touch. I have never tried landing wings-level with a cross-wind and I would imagine the side-loads on the gears would be significant. I usually know I wasn't slipping her down right by a side-ways jolt when I touchdown.

Next time you're up, give yourself a bit of altitude, set the airplane up for slow flight, and just practice transitioning the airplane into and out of slips, first one way then the other. Eventually it will become second nature, like doing coordinated turns.

The other thing I did (partly for fun) was specifically request a cross-wind runway. I see that Lydd has only a single runway. Perhaps there's a nearby airport you can practice at?

[moggiee]

How hard did you have to kick the rudder?
If you kick it, you're doing it too hard. Pilots who talk of kicking the rudder are using misleading terminology which may lead students to over control - because you need to "squeeze" it.

You squeeze the rudder until the nose is pointing straight down the runway, simultaneously countering any wing lift with aileron (if you apply right rudder, the left wing will lift, so you use left aileron to stop that lift).

[Mark1234]

Wing down vs Crab is one of those debates that will go on forever - each has their pros and cons, and in certain a/c and circumstances, you may not have a choice. An experienced pilot should have both in the bag of tricks.

I personally think in a 152, at student level, there's a lot to be said for wing down - the timing is not critical, and there's nothing wrong with landing on one wheel. Establish the wing down really early, and track the centreline; then all you have to think about is the flare/hold off.

As you get more experienced, you will establish later and later. Once you know the plane well enough to know exactly when the wheels are going to touch, the crab and straighten approach can be used effectively, but the timing is critical.. and if you straighten too early, you need to transition to wing down in the hold off anyway.

For the landing; it's been covered here - fly a bit more often, try to relax and feel it (don't fight it), and check you have a consistent seat height when you fly (that affects the picture..)

[IFMU]

I have never tried landing wings-level with a cross-wind and I would imagine the side-loads on the gears would be significant.
Years ago, as a newly soloed student in a PA12, I got a chance to fly to Oshkosh in a Cherokee, with a 300 hour ppl. Each landing had me a little nervous, as each of his touchdowns would have been a groundloop in the ol' super cruiser for sure. The last one was the best, we were landing back home, at night, with a sock-straight-out and stretched a bit direct crosswind. Crabbed on final, he about had to look through my side window to see the runway. This didn't set right with him, so he pointed the nose toward the runway and immediately drifted off. Got back on centerline in the crab, didn't like looking through my window, straightened out the nose, and we were off to the races. On the 3 mile final we went through that cycle a bunch of times, finally touched down in the full crab. Like the milder crosswind landings he had done, the tires shrieked (a little louder this time), the airplane pivoted back to straight, nothing bad happened. Scared the c*ap out of me. I never had trouble with crosswind after that, there is something to be said for the instructional value of being shown the wrong way, I suppose.

As a student, I was taught wing low on final, to give myself plenty of time to get it right. Now that I'm older and lazier, I am more likely to crab until I get close to the ground, then transition by the threshold. For me, close is 10-20 feet, not 1-2".

Lew747, it will come. Just takes a little time.

-- IFMU

[FullyFlapped]

Originally Posted by Lew747

at the moment dont fly often enough really to give good continuity in my lessons with my instructor.



Lew747,

I recently had a layoff from flying for almost 5 months for a variety of reasons. When I got back in the air, the first couple of times I tried, I couldn't have landed a fish with a 10-foot net. For a PPL, I probably have quite a lot of hours, and so there's no excuse, right ?

Except of course there is : lack of currency, lack of being in the groove, call it what you will, it's just practice, practice, practice. Keep at it, fly as frequently as you can, and suddenly it will become a part of the flight that you look forward to instead of being wary of : and that's when it will come together - honestly !

Oh, and listen to the bloke sat next to you. Unlike the rest of us on here, he actually knows you, your abilities and how to sort this out. If he can't, and you're managing to fly frequently with him, get a new instructor.

FF :ok:

[DeeCee]

Lew, my immediate reaction when I read your first post was that you may be leaving rounding out a bit late. A nice smooth round out followed by a flare when required will give you time to observe what is happening and it won't all happen too quickly. Relax a bit and it will come ok.

[timzsta]

On final approach you need to worry about two things, regardless of what technique, crab or wing down. Those things are speed and being on the centreline. Speed is the most important of the two - lack of it will kill you.

Keep the aircraft in the descending attitude until the piano keys at the far end of the runway dissappear. Then close the throttle and raise the nose into the attitude you see when the aircraft is sat on the runway at the start of the take off roll. Keep your eyes looking at the far end of the runway where those piano keys where.

As you start to see the aircraft sink to the runway apply back pressure and raise the nose attitude until you can just see the far end of the runway above the engine cowling. Hold that attitude until you touchdown. A common mistake is to get the aircraft into the correct attitude and then let the nose drop.

Don't get to worried about crosswind to early. It takes a lot of practise to be able to land the aircraft well with anything more then a handfull of knots of crosswind.

[Piper.Classique]

Lasiorhinus says

Unless you've got a strong crosswind, then it's definitely possible to have the nosewheel second.

This is not going to happen all the time - it's not going to happen very often. When it does, the second mainwheel touches down not very long after the nosewheel...ER ......
Unless I am being slow of understanding here, you are saying it is a good idea to have the nosewheel on the ground before both mainwheels are firmly down.
Leaving aside the fact that the only reason to land wing down is a crosswind, strong or otherwise, I invite you to consider the words "main wheels" I.e, the wheels on which you land. The third wheel is just there so you can taxi afterwards without ploughing up the runway with the prop (nosedragger types) I remain to be convinced that it is advisable to risk an interesting wheelbarrow excursion by allowing the nose to drop before the mainwheels are both on the ground. One at a time if you like, but not after the nosewheel.......:ugh:

[Lister Noble]

When I was learning not long ago ( and I'm still learning a lot!) I was given to understand that it was a big no-no to land nose wheel first,ie a wheelbarrow landing.
Two main reasons.
1- It is not the correct attitude and can lead to poor control.
2-More importantly, esp. for the owner,itis very easy to break the nosewheel,leading to loss of prop and probably much else,and very expensive!
Lister:)

[slam525i]

Lister, I don't think anyone is suggesting landing nose wheel first. That'd be insane! (and expensive!)

My question is how strong a cross wind would you need to warrant dropping the nose before the down-wind main gear? Surely by the time you've lost enough speed to hold the nose up, the lift generated by the wings is low enough and thus the up-wind gear is firmly enough planted so that you can drop the down-wind wing first before running out of elevator authority for holding the nose up?

[18greens]

I can't believe this wing down vs crabs technique and make your choice discussion.

All cross wind landings are crab followed by wing down. The only difference is when you choose to transition from crab to wing down, 5 miles out, 1 mile out 300' or at roundout. I prefer roundout because it is less uncomfortable and landing on one wheel and trying to hold the other two up in 25kts of crosswind is soooo sweet.

[Dr_Tre]

To judge the flare...........look at the far end of the runway. Always works for me.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I desperately try and not read these discussions but it is like driving down the M25 and not looking at a thousand car wreck on the other side.

Some of the advice being given here will guarantee you never learn to land properly ...with or without a X/wind. :(

[Them thar hills]

I'm more interested in my own side of the road ! :bored:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I'm more interested in my own side of the road !

I guess you never look at traffic wrecks while driving then? :rolleyes:

Anyhow with regard to this discussion on how to land I would strongly advise anyone who is having problems with their landings to find an instructor who understands how to teach this subject.

The internet is great but one will get some rather weird advice on these forums when it comes to something as important as how to land an airplane.

So like I said previously, reading this thread on how to land is like looking at a wreck on a motorway.:ugh:

[RTN11]

Well said G-EMMA

I find reading these forums makes me ask questions of my own flying, what would I do differently etc. It helps me keep on top of everything, always thinking one step ahead.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

G-EMMA the biggest problem people have when learning to land an airplane is getting the proper visual clues.

Somehow somewhere in the training industry someone decided that you should look far, far ahead at the far end of the runway to judge when to start to change your attitude from your approach attitude to the flare to fly parallel to the runway to allow speed to decay and thus the lift to decay resulting in the airplane settling on to the runway.

Looking to far ahead will result in you not being able to see the change in height as the airplane settles toward the runway.....thus they just stare into space and wait for runway contact....

....and you have sloppy landings....this is even more true when it comes to seeing sideways drift.

I know that my advice will be scoffed at and quite frankly it does not really matter to me as I don't have any problems knowing where to look and how to judge the position of the airplane in relation to the runway either height wise or sideways drift wise.

[Crash one]

Staring with tunnel vision at the end of runways never did me any good either, I think it's a case of the right "picture" and peripheral vision works downwards as well as sideways.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A few years ago I wrote an article describing how to judge height and where to look during each phase of the landing.

I no longer have it as a virus sodomized my computer and I lost most of my files....it must be here in the old threads somewhere....but I'm to lazy to look for it. :E

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I knew someone would find it!! :D

[Piper.Classique]

ChucK, just out of interest....
When you are teaching ab initio on conventional gear, which type of landing do you teach first, wheeler or three point, and why?
Inquiring minds....:)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

ChucK, just out of interest....
When you are teaching ab initio on conventional gear, which type of landing do you teach first, wheeler or three point, and why?
Inquiring minds....




Piper C....


Excellent question and here is my answer.

The first thing I teach is ground handling starting with taxiing and loss of control while taxiing.

Next I teach high speed runs down the runway until they are comfortable controlling direction with the tail in the air.

Then we start flying and we do wheel landings for the simple reason they already know how to stall land in nose wheel airplanes.

Teaching wheel landings first serves several purposes, the most important being learning how to flare very close to the runway rather that twenty feet above it as they are used to.

Another reason is the wheel landing gives one the best control of the machine in gusty winds and X/winds......so I make sure they are comfortable with wheel landings before we do three point which they already know how to do.

Hope that answers your questions and feel free to ask more.

[Piper.Classique]

Thank you Chuck
That has given me some good hints. My problem is that I am teaching a mixture of ab initios who have never flown at all; PPLs who have only flown nosewheel, and one very experienced weight shift pilot who has never flown three axis a/c, and is used to steering on the ground by pushing right foot to go left. The PPL guys are the hardest to get a good landing out of.......Mostly it seems to be flare and then let it fall in an untidy heap:ugh:
Your method seems entirely locical, and I like the idea of the high speed runs. For info, this is microlight flying on a Rans 6S-ES, which I have fallen in love with. We haven't had it very long, but already we are doing more hours on it than on our two DR 400 a/c. Grass runway, nice and wide, even if it could do with cutting a bit more often.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Your method seems entirely logical, and I like the idea of the high speed runs.

I have to apologize Piper C.... for allowing logic to overcome the monkey see monkey do mentality so common in the flight training industry.

When doing cross over training from nose wheel to tail wheel the biggest challenge is teaching the student to " CONTROL " yaw on the ground by use of the rudder and brakes.

That is why I will not take them flying until they are comfortable with controlling the thing on the ground.

Logic to me dictates that teaching them how to fly and land the thing is useless if they lose control and wreck it in the bit between flying and coming to a stop on the ground.:E

Anyhow I am constantly having to defend my methods of teaching and my only defense is it works. :ok:

[oli,_the_original]

Lew, the best piece of landing advice i was ever given was 'Don't let the plane land' Just keep edging the yoke back until it runs out of puff and gently touches down on the mains. Works everytime (UNless ur coming in fast:E)

Oli

[Piper.Classique]

Oli wrote
Lew, the best piece of landing advice i was ever given was 'Don't let the plane land' Just keep edging the yoke back until it runs out of puff and gently touches down on the mains. Works everytime (UNless ur coming in fast:E)
IMO this will work on a tricycle UC even if you are coming in fast. Of course, you might use more runway than there is available......:}

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Lew, the best piece of landing advice i was ever given was 'Don't let the plane land' Just keep edging the yoke back until it runs out of puff and gently touches down on the mains. Works everytime

Be careful, because if you can't judge how high you are off the runway running out of puff can drive the gear right up through the wings. :E

[bArt2]

My humble opinion.

For reference I have logged about 7000 landings on several types (gliders, mooney, cessna 152, 172, 182, Morane, Mooney, Marchetti SF260, Chipmunk, TB20, TB30, Swearingen Merlin III, T-37, T-38, Alpha-jet, Piper cup, Pilatus PC-6) and am instructor since 1998.

It troubles me that an instructor states that he never lands on one wheel in crosswinds, the basic crosswind landing technique (that is certainly used on a C152) dictates that you land wing low into the wind. The logical result will be that the tire on that side will touch first :\

I have never touched with the nosewheel as second, I allways touch one main wheel then the other main wheel and then the nose wheel.

The T38 was the only aircraft I flew where you where not allowed to apply the wing low method, due to a rudder input resulting in roll at high angle of attack.

Now for kicking the rudder, that is just an expression: The thruth is that you never kick the rudder, and you never yank the stick, you should give controlled inputs (the inputs an instructor gives when taking over the aircraft control during wrong landin of a student might look like kicking or yanking but are in fact controlled inputs)

About the flare, did you ever hear of incremental flare? This means that the flare itself is not one continious nose up movement but in fact consists of several small nose up movements as speed decreases to stay at a constant distance above the surface, ideally about 30 cm.

As someone said before, you can not learn to land from reading, but a good understanding of the technique helps, the rest comes with practise.

Greetings, Bart

[Piper.Classique]

I have never touched with the nosewheel as second, I allways touch one main wheel then the other main wheel and then the nose wheel.
As one would expect...... I wonder if the poster who expects the nosewheel to touch second complains to his engineers about the shimmy ;)



The T38 was the only aircraft I flew where you where not allowed to apply the wing low method, due to a rudder input resulting in roll at high angle of attack.[Not sure I follow you on the T38, surely the induced roll due to the rudder input would make a forward slip (wing down) approach more controllable as the rudder input happens as you set up the aircraft on final, rather than using a large correction in the roundout. But I don't know the type.

There are a couple of other aircraft that are a pain in a crosswind.

The SF25 super falke, which is a TMG, also has a large induced roll and in any case with an 18m or so span and teeny tiny outrigger wheels not a lot of ground clearance. As the crab technique also results in an induced roll and a tendency to drop the nose, it can be a handful in a stiff crosswind.

I used to fly a DH 85 Leopard Moth belonging to my then boyfriend, which as soon as the tail came down on landing became a bitch to keep straight. Great into wind on grass, but a cow in a crosswind on tarmac. Got a super cub now, less charisma but a practical aircraft.
(seem to be a lot of animals in this post.....:))

I don't know how many landings I have done, can we count the bounces as two or three?;) Putting on my tug pilot hat here, it has to be a fair few....
Yes, I know about incremental flare. Given enough increments, it becomes a smooth one....It's just an extension of "oops, a bit high here, pause in the backward movement of the stick to let the aircraft settle, now continue the hold-off"

Currently flying a Rans Coyote, much nicer to land wing down in a xwind, again due to the rolling tendency with firm rudder input. I am informed most three axis microlights have the same tendency, perhaps someone with more microlight experience will let me know if this is the case?

[bArt2]

Not sure I follow you on the T38, surely the induced roll due to the rudder input would make a forward slip (wing down) approach more controllable as the rudder input happens as you set up the aircraft on final, rather than using a large correction in the roundout. But I don't know the type.


In fact you would touch in a crab condition, not ideal for the tires but they had to be changed after about 7 landings anyway :\.

If you fly close to stall in this aircraft, then bring the stick aft and subsequently give full rudder, it will start making rolls at sthe speed of say an aileron roll in a C152. For this reason the rudder system was constructed in a way that when the gear is down full rudder would give a much smaller rudder deflection and use of rudder for crosswind landing was not allowed.

I don't know how many landings I have done

I know how many I did because in Belgium we have to log the amount of landings each flight in the logbook.

Bart

[foxmoth]

I used to fly a DH 85 Leopard Moth belonging to my then boyfriend, which as soon as the tail came down on landing became a bitch to keep straight. Great into wind on grass, but a cow in a crosswind on tarmac.

I also have a lot of time in the dH85 (not DH) and was frequently told how bad it was supposed to be in a x-wind, personally I never had any trouble.:hmm:

[Piper.Classique]

Foxmoth said

I also have a lot of time in the dH85
Oh, I don't have a lot of time in it.....And I had only just got my PPL at the time, so maybe it just seemed hard to me. But I remember us having to have wing strut helpers to taxi at Calais once.....:)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Piper C....where in France are you located?

I used to be one of the pilots who flew for the French Flying Legends and spent a lot of time in France.

[Piper.Classique]

Piper C....where in France are you located?

LFDW, near Poitiers. Good flying country, gliders and power

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I looked it up on google earth and don't recall having ever been there...we flew all over France but I guess I missed your airport.

Did you know or know of Franklin Deveaux?