Inappropriate use of CRM?

[Mercenary Pilot]

I was just reading the latest CHIRP when I came across this statement regarding the CAA's attitude towards airport security.

At this time, the CAA continues to express the view that although individuals do experience difficulties, aspects of the Crew Resource Management (CRM) training provided to flight crew members should enable individuals to deal effectively with any adverse experiences associated with airport security, and protect them against the deleterious effects of stress.I think this shows that the whole idea of CRM seems to be getting lost and being used as a buzz word of "how to get along with people" which is really NOT what CRM is about. Also, I don't remember any CRM course I've ever seen being used for training in anti-stress techniques?!? (Assume the lotus position and Ommmmmm :hmm:)

The article goes on to say
The perceived benefits of CRM training, together with the safegaurds afforded by flight crew members adhering to SOP's, lead the authority to conclude that the risk of any security-related incident impinging on flight safety is adequately mitigated, as evidence by the fact that no flight safety incidents have been reported."as evidence by the fact that no flight safety incidents have been reported." :eek:

So is this going to be another situation where nothing will change unless there is a serious incident? Regulations written in blood?

[BusyB]

MA,

I am in total agreement with you. The same thoughts crossed my mind when I read it.:ugh:

[Chippie Chappie]

I'm in agreement also. Well done Merc for raising the issue. (Hey Mods, make this a sticky, will you? Pleaseeeeee).

My hope is that the boss of the person who made the comment is highly embarassed by their subordinate and hopes that it will all go away. Because if s/he is not, then the CAA have completely missed the point about CRM and have displayed their lack of understanding. Not very good considering their position.

Firstly, CRM is often based around SOPs (just like the CAA chap/ette said). Does security throughout the UK (let alone Europe) operate to SOPs. Didn't think so.

Secondly, CRM works under the principle that the captain has 51% of the vote. Input welcome but in the end, it's his/her decision. Does this happen at screening? No. There are no decisions. Procedures are made and followed with no variations for input or suggestion or common sense.

A CRM guru will be able to come up with numerous points but it's pretty obvious that the CAA spokesperson either has little if any idea about CRM or quite possibly can't be bothered to to do anything about this potential problem.

As comedian Steve Wright noted: Thank God that Richard Reid wasn't known as the underwear bomber!

Cheers,

Chips

[apaddyinuk]

I was always under the impression that the scope of CRM did not extend beyond matters of the aircraft and cockpit with the few obvious exceptions.....rude and abusive security screening staff not being one of them!

[Capt Pit Bull]

Well... CRM encompasses many skills, most if not all of which can be applied more generally in life.

Not that I disagree with the thrust of the OP.

pb

[TyreCreep]

Thank you MA for bringing up this issue. My initial reaction when reading the CAA's reaction reported in your post - "Oh dear". It sounds like the person at the CAA didn't really 'get it'.

Firstly, there is a problem with his/her grasp of CRM.

Secondly, there is a problem with his/her grasp of 'safety'. Does it make it 'safe' just because no incident has been reported? I don't think so.

It would worry me greatly if this represents the general attitude of CAA.

[FougaMagister]

Regulations written in blood... Reminds me of the story of the guy who jumps out of a 15th-floor window. Every time he passes another floor on his way down, he says: "so far, so good!" Seriously though, does the author of that stupid comment at the CAA really believe that airport security screeners have had CRM training too?

Cheers :cool:

[wiggy]

Maybe we could all "CHIRP" CHIRP for misusing the concept of CRM...seriously, I thought the reply stank - does the team think a mass putting of pen to paper might turn the burner up a bit?

[F100 driver]

I have the dubious pleasure of commuting through LHR every week to and from my base in Europe.

Perhaps these enlightened professionals from the CAA would care to go through security as these, how shall I put it, "politically correct employees", from foreign shores, treat me like a piece of dogsh1te.

If these idiots worked in McDonald's they would be unemployed within a week for their customer handling skills.

[gr8shandini]

I don't know about stress relief, but I don't see any reason that crew resource management couldn't be applied to any team of individuals who need to work together to complete a task. For example, in the case of the security screeners it would be easy for one disturbance to cause many of the screeners to neglect their own duties and either slow the line to a halt, or fail to properly screen the folks in their queue. Much like that famous accident where all three crew members were focusing on a burned out light and no one was left flying the plane.

[pilotbear]

I think we will find that CHIRP reports citing security causing stress to the FD crew are conveniently ignored:E

[Chippie Chappie]

gr8shandini

Careful now, you could be accused of helping a possible penetration. Either that or the powers that be would have to examine the fact that the current standard of screening is more showcase than showstopper.

Watch out for that bottle of water now.....

[Metro man]

If these idiots worked in McDonald's they would be unemployed within a week for their customer handling skills.

That's because people who lack the manners and social skills required to put wheel clamps on cars are assigned to airport security.

I can think of one or two I'd like to meet in a dark car park :E

[londonmet]

Total agreement with this thread. Well done for bringing it to light. It shows the CAA's lack of "balls" when handling the dinsosaur that is the BAA.

I recently travelled as a passenger through Dublin airport, an airport that I felt has not been driven to employing absolute morons (ala LGW). My experience was fine however I did over hear the security nazi say the following to an elderly chap as he set off the buzzer :-

Passenger - I'm so sorry that's my metal knee.
Security bloke - I don't care what it is go back and take off your belt!!

Elderly passenger looked confused and taken back by his rudeness. There is no excuse to be rude when in that position.

[TyreCreep]

There is no excuse to be rude when in that position.

I agree, and in fact, there is no excuse to be rude in any position for that matter, when the other party is not being rude. Some people appears to have no common courtesy and I do see it quite prominently among security staff.

[groundbum]

out of all the jobs out there though being a security person at an airport must be an awwwwwwwwfffull job, yuck yuck yuck.

min wage
same place, same thing all day
everyday
countless faces x1000 all thinking their special
lobotomies on every 3rd person due jetlag/1st time on a plane/stress etc etc
and being hated by every person coming through
knowing it's all futile anyway
happy people going off for 2 weeks sun, you're not, another 6 hours on xray

I mean really, can anyone besides me see why they may have a slight attitude?

[fingal flyer]

The CAA stopped surprising me a long time ago,so I can believe what I read in the first post.I think it just shows us all where the "authority" is living in relation to reality and where they need to be.

[Mister Geezer]

Firstly the CAA have got the wrong end of the stick by saying that we should be using knowledge from our CRM training. The CAA does not require us to undergo CRM training since the regulator stipulates that we attend CRM 'awareness' courses when we are in the classroom. Perhaps the more astute LTC/TRI/TRE may give advice and criticism on CRM aspects to crews during checks. However the amount of CRM training and instruction that is provided is woefully low so it is not appropriate for the CAA to advise us to use training that the majority of us have never received. Perhaps that is why so many of us leave CRM refresher courses thinking - well that was a waste of time wasn't it? Anyway I am drifting from the thread so back to the topic.

I am a Line Trainer at my outfit and I recently got involved in training and I had to attend a CRMI course for this. We did have a chat for a few minutes about airport security staff. The CRMI Examiner who was conducting the course reminded us that getting friendly and enthusiastic security staff had to be regarded as the exception. We must remember that they are doing a job which is viewed as unappealing, repetitive and there can't be hardly any job satisfaction either. Many of them are doing it for a paltry salary as well.

I don't let security staff wind me up. If they hold me up then it is not my problem since I am not directly affected. We obviously all work hard to meet the schedule for our customers but if security wish to disrupt that then that is not my problem and I will be delighted to inform the customers on the PA that they are late due to the crew being unnecessarily held up at security.

Finally if it is all going wrong and you are dealing with a uncooperative security official who is not going to budge on the issue at hand, take yourself out of the loop and get someone else to sort it out! It is amazing just how quickly things can get done if the flight is running late and you phone Ops and get them to sort it out. So whilst Ops are getting more irate by the minute with security, take your crew off to Starbucks for a coffee until the storm in the teacup has died down!! :ok:

[boeingbus2002]

Great post MG!

As with any group of people, there are some good, friendly security staff who do their job professionally and efficiently. When they are required to ask you to go through extra checks like removing shoes (randomnly every 4th person at some checkpoints), they try to apologise and make light of the matter to show its not a personal attack. (They are monitored on CCTV by DFT).
Others however are the complete opposite. (enough has been said about them so no need to explain their traits!).

Maybe THEY should be sent on "crm" style courses..or learn "People Skills". An earlier poster mentioned that the job is monotonous, repetitive, and lacking a challenge. The fact that this gives them some opportunity to exercise some control over proceedings is what perhaps causes some to create stressful situations of staff/passengers.

There is a book behind most terminal security supervisors desks, (not so easy to find though!) where all complaints can be lodged. Some of the "better" security staff members actively encouraged us to write a formal complaint against a particular colleague of theirs who was well known for harassing those passing through. If someone receives enough complaints against them, they should be made to undertake the course...AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE!

:E:E:E

[TyroPicard]

The way I read it the CAA are referring to the subsequent flight, and not to your struggle to get through security. Use your CRM training to recognise a possible flight safety risk and mitigate it.
TP

[montag]

I once sought out the comments book so I could write about my experiences with security at ROC. They were pleasant, polite and helpful, in contrast to every other US airport I have used. Of course ROC is a small airport with limited passenger numbers so the security staff are less stressed and have a little more time to be pleasant.

[Life's a Beech]

Mister Geezer

Were we on the same CRMI course? I remember something very similar. Brilliant course.

As for the subject, I was astounded when I saw the article. CRM is important to this issue, and it can help. However it is meant to be an aid to safety, not solution to problems caused by the avoidable, inappropriate decisions of politicians and bureaucrats. It is not a patch up for a problem that can be easily solved in other ways.

[Mister Geezer]

2nd to the 4th of April in LGW! There was only a small group on mine - 5 from memory!

[Dan Winterland]

Threat and Error Management (TEM) is the new buzzphrase which seems to be the modern thing, and in my company TEM is becoming bigger that CRM, although you can argue there are common areas encompassed by both.

The security system is a threat which needs to be managed. The CAA are correct in saying that out training should alleviate some of the problems if they consider TEM rather than CRM. However, should this be allowed to continue? If there is a constant and persistant threat - it needs to be managed. And if the CAA don't have the ability to take it on as it stands at the monent, give them some ammunition.

ASRs are the way. "After a particularly stressful arrival at the aircraft due to airport security, the chain of events which led to.............were set in motion" etc.

[Chippie Chappie]

Tyro Picard,

I hear your sentiment, but it may not be possible to "take 5" and calm down a little after your "event" unless you want to miss your slot or put even more pressure on yourself when you finally do get to the aircraft.

I like to look them dead in the eye and advise them that I intend to take control of an aircraft :ooh:

Chips

[Mister Geezer]

But if we miss our slot due to security then perhaps that may reinforce that a problem exists! If we get buggered about by these individuals then it is quite simply not our problem if we get delayed. Crews should feel under no pressure to rush or feel under excessive stress to meet the schedule. I only get worried over delays that I can directly control and I can't control if Mr Jobsworth at Security has got out of the right side of bed the morning.

If your going to say:
I like to look them dead in the eye and advise them that I intend to take control of an aircraft
then your simply inviting trouble!

Dan... many of us have used ASRs but the CAA have no backbone in them to sort this out since they know there is a problem but they don't have the balls to tackle it head on.

Cheers

[Life's a Beech]

MG

That wasn't the same one as me, I was there a couple of weeks later. Different company too, as they didn't have a course scheduled then, so this must be a very common issue at the moment!

[Dan Winterland]

Quote: "Dan... many of us have used ASRs but the CAA have no backbone in them to sort this out since they know there is a problem but they don't have the balls to tackle it head on."

There was a case of ASRs being ignored about five years ago. Pilots were submitting ASRs regarding a practice they considered unsafe, but nothing was being done. Until one day, a pilot who had a mate who was a journo had a word with that mate and the story was published in one of the national newspapers. The CAA took notice and the practice was stopped.

The power is in your hands. After all, journos aren't hard to find. I suspect at least five will have read this before the day is out!





I would love to help, but I fly in a region where crew are given priority and are subject to less checks than passengers and we really don't suffer the same problems that out US and UK bretheren. In this respect, the People's Republic of China is way ahead!

[Chippie Chappie]

Mister Geezer, I agree with you. But if you're getting trouble anyway....

Chips

[Mister Geezer]

True... there is a alternative way to look at it I suppose!!!

[Monty77]

If you look back on all the airline hi-jackings and bombings the vast majority (pretty much all) were carried out by young men of Middle Eastern appearance.

This is not racist. It is a statement of fact. Just like saying that the vast majority of people convicted of burglary in London were young white males. And hand-bag snatching goes to young black males. Fraud and corruption lies firmly at the feet of white middle class males.

Why do we subject every single passenger (or even worse, a random every 4th one) to the same level of security screening?

Is it because we don't want to offend an unknown/undefined minority ethnic group? Or the PC Brigade? I would rather travel with an airline that screens pax and searches accordingly, reducing delay and hassle for all concerned.

If you are offended, note paragraph 1 and choose to fly with an airline that will b*gger everyone about. El Al have been screening check-in for as long as they have existed, with very good reason. They are way down the hijack victim list.

It is laughable that, to protect the sensibilities of a vocal minority, the individuals flying the aircraft with fire axes strapped to the back of their seats are subjected to 'security checks'.

If this is in the interests of 'fairness', then why do MPs (public servants) get far more generous remittance per travel mile than other public servants. Just for one example.

Edited: I'm not an airline pilot, but nearly was. Just for a press to test: anybody try carrying a fire-axe through security, then pointing out the same item's available in the office you are about to occupy? So what is proven by confiscating said item?

This question should be directed at those who insist on the policy. Is it airline management or politicians? Should all politicians get the same treatment to enter parliament in case of a looky-likey parliament bomber?

Thought not.

Still a pound a pint in the Commons bar.

Bast*rds.

Come back Guy Fawkes, all is forgiven.