Why fly?

[matt999]

Why do we fly?
Why didn't you drive?
To go somewhere specific?
Business?

Is there more to it than JUST fun?

[S205-18F]

why not!!!!

[WorkingHard]

matt999 - I live in East Anglia and travel throughout the UK and Europe by GA. Essentially outside any city centre where the journey by road would take me over 2.5 - 3 hours I prefer an aircraft. Paris by road/rail is how long? By GA about 2 hours. No contest, no hassle, no check in 2 hours before flight etc.

[Chilli Monster]

I follow the same principle as Working Hard, though as I'm well served by the motorway network the criteria changes:

Up to 2 hours by road - take the car
Over 2 hours by car and is practicable - fly myself.
5 hours or more self flown - go commercial.

There comes a point in life when you realise time is the most valuable commodity.

[S-Works]

Because it is the best experience on earth. Requires, skill dedication and planning which makes it an amazing personal challenge.

I am sat in the aeroclub at Barkerby outside Stockholm about to fly to Copenhagen and then onwards home. There are no less than 7 UK aircraft here including 3 microlights. Yesterday I was in Germany at Bremerharven.

Flew 598nm in 2:40 from Bremerhaven to Barkerby.

Flying is about pushing your boundaries and seeing the world under your own steam, not sanitized and packaged.

[cjhants]

if you have a fast IMC machine, and all the ratings to go with it, sometimes it can make sense, as working hard has said.

if i want to fly VFR from my home in hampshire to say, nottingham, by the time i have driven to the airfield, taken off the covers, prefilighted, fuelled etc, i could probably have got there by car at about a quarter of the cost.

so my flying is purely because i can, and the satisfaction it can give. it will never make economic sense to me.

[mixture]

why not!!!!
Because it is the best experience on earth. Requires, skill dedication and planning which makes it an amazing personal challenge.

and any other excuse I can think of ... :p

[IO540]

Most people who get a PPL give up very quickly, for various reasons.

Of those that remain, different people keep at it for different reasons, but they will all have one thing in common: there is a fair bit of hassle to be dealt with on the ground, and one needs to get a "return" on the activity which makes it worth doing.

When this return stops coming, you pack it up.

For most, the main return is the joy of flying.

The more determined pilots embark on a quest to get some utility value out of it too. This is much harder than just plain PPL-level sunny-Sunday flying, because you need to get your hands on a capable plane and some hard to get bits of paper for yourself which entitle you to fly in/above cloud.

To get real European transport utility you more or less need an IR and a very capable plane, and very very few pilots, perhaps 1% of the PPL population, ever reach that stage. Even that you will never (short of a jet) reach the reliability of an airline. And obviously it works only between proper airports.

For me, each year I get lots of UK away-day trips, a number of foreign get-aways each year, and one or two really nice flying holidays to warm places. But the last one is possible only because I can fly ~ 900nm in one go (5-6hrs).

The moment the wheels touch the ground, the hassle starts. Back home, it's airfield politics, maintenance hassles, you name it. Being airborne has to be a pretty good compensation.

One cannot pretend it's cheap but at ~ 20mpg is compares well with road transport. Great many 4x4s on the motorways get nowhere near 20mpg when going fast.

It will never compare with a cheap airline of course, but as one gets older one gets increasingly resentful at wasting half a day at the sh***y place called "airport". In fact I find it hard to believe that large numbers of people are willing to put up with the treatment. I'd rather fly myself.

[Chilli Monster]

if i want to fly VFR from my home in hampshire to say, nottingham, by the time i have driven to the airfield, taken off the covers, prefilighted, fuelled etc, i could probably have got there by car at about a quarter of the cost.

so my flying is purely because i can, and the satisfaction it can give. it will never make economic sense to me.

It will never make economic sense to anyone (Though I have found the odd occasion that - with enough people, it's no more expensive than going commercially and a lot more convenient). If that was the main thinking behind any of our flying then GA would disappear overnight.

But I do your quoted journey in reverse quite often and can be airborne 30 minutes after leaving the house. Sitting at 3000ft feeling relaxed, watching the traffic queues on the M40 or A34 knowing I'm not getting stressed sat in the traffic, means more to me than money can buy.

[stocker]

Fun and the challenge are the main reasons for me but also the fact that I would not like to lose the amazing privelages that come with your licence, whatever one you have.

Up here in Scotland we have so many islands that are only a short hop accross the water but may have a very restricted ferry service, non existant on Sundays which makes flight a far better option and quite often cheaper due to the geography and distance you would have to drive in order to catch that elusive ferry.

A lot of my friends fly because they couldn`t be ar**d having to do it all again if they let it slip.......

I guess that once its in the blood not even the most enthusiastic blood tranfusion could remove it.

[PompeyPaul]

It pulls the chicks at parties.

Ha ha, suckers. Little do they realise that pilots are amongst the nerdiest race of people there are. Think avid D&D player crossed with train spotter.

[Lister Noble]

I learned to fly-to fly!
I fly a hand swing,slow aircraft with a relatively small range from a small grass strip,and once airborne all I want to do is fly.
I don't particularly want to land away as there is a certain amount of hassle starting,airport procedures etc.
So my great joy is being able to use my hard won privilege to get up in the air around East Anglia,and enjoy the never ending wonder of flight.
Lister
:):)

[matt999]

Thanks everyone, your replies are worded much better than my original question(s).

My dad was a glider instructor and he paid for me, my brother and sister to fly gliders as teenagers. Now age 43 and after reading 'propellerhead', I am reading everything I can online and buying the odd 'Pilot' magazine, thinking of getting a suitable licence to buy a microlight or PFA/LAA aircraft such as a Jodel or maybe a share in a proper group 'A' aircraft.

I know there is rarely a reason for GA to make economic sense, but part of my justification is that my family and I will get SOME utility out of a plane. I drive about 25,00 mile a year, but rarely more than 2hrs away. I might be able to use a plane for European holidays once or twice a year.

Even a cheap two-seat LAA plane would kep me current, and I could hire a four-seater for hols.

One thought is to get a Funk FK9 http://www.fk-lightplanes.com/html/fk9_-_mk_iv.html (472.5kg, Group A) with diesel engine, and hire it out for hour-building, to get other people to contribute to my flying. Another thought is that it would be part of my boys' education, just as gliders were part of mine.

Just kicking around ideas before I suggest to my wife that I spend £20-30k (licence and plane) of our hard-earned on mucking about in the sky.

[Slipstream86]

Why fly?

For the view!!!

[Major Major]

How else am I going to get rid of all this excess money?

[Mariner9]

Just kicking around ideas before I suggest to my wife that I spend £20-30k (licence and plane) of our hard-earned on mucking about in the sky.

You only live once (presuming Hindu's are wrong :hmm:) so go for it :ok:

[usedtofly]

If you have time to spare..........................go by air !

Generally speaking any journey that would be up to 200 miles by car will always be quicker door to door by car, and of course much cheaper.

As for fun, then the 'plane every time :}

A private flight can not really be considered 'practical or cost effective' :E

But if you don't need justification and can afford to miss an appointment due to bad weather, then enjoy :)

Personally I only fly professionally now, but if I were to fly for fun then I would do so in a small 3 axis microlight away from airfields etc.

For me the fun is simply 'being up there'

Cheers

UTF :ok:

[IO540]

It pulls the chicks at parties.

Only if you have a nice shiny modern comfy plane :)

A private flight can not really be considered 'practical or cost effective'

It certainly can be very practical if you travel to your schedule. It isn't generally suitable for say meeting customers because once the meeting is booked, you have to be there. Also you usually cannot reveal that you flew yourself because they will rightly suss that they are paying for your hobby...

Cost effective... that depends on the value you put on your time.

Millions of people put virtually zero value on their time, and will make their way across the UK to Stansted where they waste half a day having their back orifice x-rayed, just to fly on a £30 ticket which (presumably) makes them feel good about the whole sorry process.

I might spend a couple of hours flight planning and faxing off PPR etc, 20 mins drive to the airport, 30 mins preflight etc, 5hrs later (a normally very enjoyable flight with great views) I have landed in Croatia and 20 mins later we are in the hotel. BUT the departure might be delayed a day or two due to weather.

Caveats:

- if I had to drive to the airport for say 2hrs I would probably give up flying

- to do this without some headaches, and legally, one needs an IR. I used to do these trips under VFR but would never do it again - it's awfully hard to always be in VMC but the worst bit is never quite knowing whether they will let you into some piece of airspace so a dogled needs to be done in double quick time. And I admit an IR is the hardest thing I have ever done.

Generally speaking any journey that would be up to 200 miles by car will always be quicker door to door by car, and of course much cheaper

That's usually true in the UK, due to poor airport coverage. But in the right situations, a 200nm flight is 1.2hrs and could easily be 8 hrs by car if the traffic is bad and it's in country lanes.

[theyounglaird]

I fly because a journey to my house in Scotland consists of :

6 hours drive through the night followed by 3 hour ferry
2 regular flights followed by 2 hours in a fishing boat
2 hours in a 172 direct

Even the ecomomics make sense!

[BartV]

I quote Pilot:

"How do you know the guy you meet at a party is a Pilot ?" ......





Don't worry, he'll tell you.

[Lister Noble]

Not all of them,I know some very experienced commercial and private pilots ,and the last thing they talk about in a flash way is flying.
But there again there are some first class pr**ts about.
;);)
Lister

[Pilotdom]

I fly because I love it! I love the challenge and the rewards I get from it. Ive also met some of the nicest people through flying and have had experiences that others may not. Im going to Tempelhof next weekend with the Flyer froum and a Pilot I happend to meet at the Aeroclub 3 years ago, and since then we have become good friends. He has always taken me flying when he could and the experience ive gained is invaluable.

My aim is to get a nice touring aircraft that can take me and my better half to cannes, we can enjoy a few days there and maybe return home via LFAT or Jersey etc stopping where we like. I also want to do Oshkosh and fly in America.

Other friends revel in there fancy cars and big houses, I have a small house, but have the passion and thrill of flying! That will never be beaten!

[PlasticPilot]

It's such a damned good question that I developed a section just for that on my blog, with three possible answers for the moment:

Pleasure Sharing (http://www.plasticpilot.net/blog/2007/08/24/pleasure-sharing-reasons-to-fly-i/) - Going There (http://www.plasticpilot.net/blog/2007/09/10/going-there-reasons-to-fly-ii/) - Good Flying is Rewarding (http://www.plasticpilot.net/blog/2007/11/25/good-flying-is-rewarding-reasons-to-fly-iii/)

Feel free to add more !

[VeriLocation]

A few years ago visiting clients in Dublin consisted on driving to Birmingham, M6 / M42 bumper to bumper, paying throughthe nose for parking, queues to check-in, queues to have my shoes x-ray'd, queues to get on board, cramped seats next to sweaty joe public, holding over Dublin , then visit client and do it all over again in reverse. Time from home for travel - about 7 to 8 hours and cost of about £2-300 for myself and a sales guy.
Now in my DA40 ( hang in there Thierlet ) - one and half hours direct to Dublin Weston - when I want and then leave - when I want with stunning views of Wales from FL08. 30 litres of Jet A1 at 63p/l = £20 each way plus Euros 20 landing fee......and then at the weekend the wife & I go to the coast / visit family. What other business tool gives you so much time saving and sheer enjoyment? The only caveat I have is that you need to own your own aircraft to get full access, use it regularly to see the unit fixed costs come down and make it a modern one with a G1000 or similar + autopilot = v easy and safe travel. Dublin tomorrow - fingers crossed the weather holds otherwise it's foot in mouth time...

[effortless]

The comfort dear boy, the comfort. Oh and the sense of security that only string and canvass can give you. More dope vicar?

[IanSeager]

IO, I sort of agree with you but sometimes feel that you make it sound more difficult than it really needs to be

To get real European transport utility you more or less need an IR and a very capable plane, and very very few pilots, perhaps 1% of the PPL population, ever reach that stage. Even that you will never (short of a jet) reach the reliability of an airline. And obviously it works only between proper airports.

Depends what you mean by 'real' utility - You are right if you are talking about a very high despatch rate, but plan for flexibility (set your plans in custard rather than concrete) and it all becomes easier, less stressful and there's no desperate need for an IR or a funky aeroplane (although both are good to have,

For me, each year I get lots of UK away-day trips, a number of foreign get-aways each year, and one or two really nice flying holidays to warm places. But the last one is possible only because I can fly ~ 900nm in one go (5-6hrs).

There's really no need top have an aeroplane that will do 900nm in order to have a nice flying holiday somewhere warm. 5 - 6 hrs is way too long for a single leg anyway. It's a holiday, relax and enjoy the places and people you meet on the way.

Ian

[IO540]

Ian, I don't disagree, but I did say it works when you can travel to your schedule, which is more or less what you are saying.

In practice, having 1100nm zero-fuel range means you can do trips up to 700-800nm, which gets you over the Alps or into Spain (I am assuming people do the normal thing and fly somewhere warmer :) ) which would otherwise mean a stop in say France or Switzerland etc and hanging around there until the weather improves or whatever.

Some people like stopping in lots of places on the way, which is attractive to those who have plenty of time to play with, but you need even more time that way because every stop introduces a change of weather risk. And doing stops purely for fuel is a huge waste of time and one can get stuck somewhere for hours and then maybe needs to find a hotel.

[Whirlybird]

For me, flying added something to my life...then flying touring added another whole dimension.

I consider it a way of life in itself for a short period. You can be a flying wandering minstrel, going where whim and weather takes you. Don't know where to go? Well, weather looks good in North-East France, never been there, let's try it - file flight plan and go. Weather not good enough? Divert somewhere you've never heard of, stay for a bit, check out the local flying club or scenery, stay the night if necessary. Sometimes you discover a hidden gem, a fantastic place that no-one else seems to know about, and you feel like a real explorer. Sometimes it's boring, but so what, there's always tomorrow...and more new places and experiences.

Modern life is a bit too predictable for me, and even holidays can become that way. But flying holidays, with a basic PPL and an equally basic aeroplane...anything can happen! It's exciting and different...and I miss it now that I've now sold my C150 share, I'm short of both time and money, and my regular partner-in-crime can't manage to go even if I could overcome all of the other obstacles (and I could, somehow).

But I have my memories... And despite the fact that more conventional means of transport have taken me to 6 continents (going to the 7th in October) and nearly 70 countries, my two days stranded in Biberach rank very high in those memories. Where's Biberach, you ask. Well, that's what I mean. ;)

[IanSeager]

Some people like stopping in lots of places on the way, which is attractive to those who have plenty of time to play with, but you need even more time that way because every stop introduces a change of weather risk. And doing stops purely for fuel is a huge waste of time and one can get stuck somewhere for hours and then maybe needs to find a hotel.

Yup, but sometimes both the journey and the destination are the reward! I guess what I am really saying is that being VFR and having a basic aircraft doesn't mean that you can't make long and interesting trips, it just means that you have to be flexible.

Ian

[stocker]

Wouldn`t it be great if hotels could afford us the same flexibility that the weather forces on us.
Ive lost count on the amount of times I have had to cancel hotels at the last minute. Thankfully my flying partners at the time have always been very understanding, but isn`t that part of the challenge?

I think flying holidays have to be done with a certain degree of "what if" and anything going to plan is a bonus.
I love it when you have to think on your feet, thank god for the internet on my mobile!!!!!!

[Rod1]

I have an endurance of 5 hours and a range of about 700nm. In practice I enjoy flying up to three hours for one leg, which is about 400nm. With my Wife onboard I limit things to 2.25h or about 300nm.

I love touring the more remote parts of the UK, as well as Ireland and France, but I go on a whim and often decide where I will spend the night at the lunch stop. To me this is part of the romance of flying, and the Scottish islands are the perfect place to enjoy a light aircraft and a VFR approach with almost no hassle as you flit from strip to strip. I fly for fun but because I like touring in the more remote arrears I need speed and reasonable STOL.

I have tried trips in IFR in the past, but you are then flying to arrive, not flying for fun. I spent last weekend touring around Scotland (I am midlands based) and did 5 hours flying over 2 days and had a really good time, met some very interesting people doing exactly the same and will be back up there in a few weeks for more.

Rod1

[S-Works]

Bless him, don't be too hard on IO, he worked very hard for that IR and likes to let us know he is in the 1%. There is no doubt that an IR increases the utility of GA, thats the reason there are so many biz jets and high end pistons kicking around.

An IR in a spam can does increase the utility without a doubt but without pressurization and proper de-ice then it only adds a fairly small advantage to the spam can flyer, still not an advantage to be sniffed at.

Flying long legs in a standard spamcan is a bit off self punishment! The whole point of GA touring is the ability to stop and take in the local life. Flying for several hours in a Cessna or a TB20 and peeing in a bottle is not my idea of fun. I have the aircraft and the IR but still like to keep my legs down to 3 hours as an average despite being 5 hours plus capable. I flew from Sweden yesterday and could easily have flown the trip home direct at 900nm in just over 4hrs but still preferred to stop half way in Copenhagen to visit a new airfield and have a pee break.

Flying your own aircraft is about having fun, some of us choose to explore long distances other choose to throw their lunch around their stomach and never stray a few miles from home, others dangle under a tent with a lawn mower on the back.

Each to their own, but it all adds up to the incredible diversity of GA and it's the diversity that is available that is why I fly.

[fireflybob]

But I do your quoted journey in reverse quite often and can be airborne 30 minutes after leaving the house. Sitting at 3000ft feeling relaxed, watching the traffic queues on the M40 or A34 knowing I'm not getting stressed sat in the traffic, means more to me than money can buy.

Spot on, Chilli Monster - I find long car journeys (or even short ones) quite stressful and tireing. A couple of years ago I had a job interview at BOH and decided to fly from Nottingham (thats EGBN not EGNX). The Warrior was already booked so I took the Tomahawk - even in the slightly slower PA38 the airborne time was a little over one and a quarter hours. I arrived feeling fresh having enjoyed the views on the way down. The interview done I had a spot of lunch and returned in the afternoon. The return journey by road would have left me wrung out and would have taken much longer and might even have involved a night stop - adding to the expense.

Even on the longer journeys I would take going by air in a light a/c every time over fighting it out with the traffic. Also it's much safer!

[clearfinalsno1]

theyounglaird,

You must have a nice strip somewhere - care to tell us where it is?

[usedtofly]

A couple of years ago I had a job interview at BOH and decided to fly from Nottingham (thats EGBN not EGNX).I agree that flying is more fun and less stress, but I still think that many of you are missing the point. If you HAVE to be somewhere ON TIME then the unfortunate fact is that private flight is not reliable enough. As for time, well, if you count the time to drive to the airfield, plan and check the a/c, fly, get taxi to final destination then flying will nearly ALWAYS TAKE LONGER!

I agree with IO540, if you fly then fly to YOUR schedule, this of course means when ever and how ever you like......as long as no one is expecting you on time!

Regarding driving stress I would say set out a little earlier, put the radio on, sit back and relax..........you will probably always get there quicker!

As I said, I think many are missing the point and trying too hard to seek justification. Fly because it's FUN and we ENJOY it........end of! :E

Happy landings :}

UTF :)

[S-Works]

I agree that flying is more fun and less stress, but I still think that many of you are missing the point. If you HAVE to be somewhere ON TIME then the unfortunate fact is that private flight is not reliable enough. As for time, well, if you count the time to drive to the airfield, plan and check the a/c, fly, get taxi to final destination then flying will nearly ALWAYS TAKE LONGER!

No I think you are confusing the concept of private flight and private flight in the clapped out club rental and the lower end syndicate stuff.

If you go further up the chain, still private flight you can a much more reliable launch rate. I fly my 172 for the flights where a virtually guaranteed launch is not required and I am happy be to be stuck somewhere for a few days even with an IR. I have to be somewhere I take the Malibu, short of fog I am guaranteed a launch. At 220KTAS the journey is short. An example home (runway is 300yrds from my door) I can fly from home to Paris in 50mins and a cab ride of 20mins delivers me to the door in under 90mins. If I fly to Edinburgh for a meeting the times are the same. Brussels, Amsterdam all likewise.

GA has great utility and you need to look at the bigger GA picture not just the low end spam cans that can be limited.

[usedtofly]

bose-x

If you go further up the chain, still private flight you can a much more reliable launch rate. I fly my 172 for the flights where a virtually guaranteed launch is not required and I am happy be to be stuck somewhere for a few days even with an IR. I have to be somewhere I take the Malibu, short of fog I am guaranteed a launch. At 220KTAS the journey is short. An example home (runway is 300yrds from my door) I can fly from home to Paris in 50mins and a cab ride of 20mins delivers me to the door in under 90mins. If I fly to Edinburgh for a meeting the times are the same. Brussels, Amsterdam all likewise.

Agreed, but you are a rarity amongst ppl holders. For most people the reality is quite different.

UTF (smiling but a little jealous) :ooh:

[S-Works]

UTF, I don't think I am that much of a rarity. I am just one of the more vocal!!

The very term General Aviation means that the scene is much wider than is seen by many on these forums. Take a look around the biz jets forum etc. to get a feel for just how much utility GA actually provides.

I think that the mindset (no dig intended at you) that GA does not provide any real utility is the reason why in Europe it is seen as rich man and eccentrics playing with toys whereas in the USA GA is seen as a genuine utility and as a result of this all of GA benefits from the support of government and the representative bodies.

I have always been off the mindset that GA is not only a great pastime but also a great utility and as such have always tried to use it this way. Over the years I have graduated to bigger toys and this has increased even further the utility value of GA to me. The reason that I have so many hours is that where possible I always self fly, as a result I do a few thousand miles a year by car and several hundred hours by air. Meetings that used to mean a two day trip are now single day sociable hours. If I go to a meeting in Paris for 10am local I leave home at 7:30 and will be back mid afternoon. By commercial transport this was a 2 day event.

True utility value.

[PompeyPaul]

I think that the mindset (no dig intended at you) that GA does not provide any real utility is the reason why in Europe it is seen as rich man and eccentrics playing with toys whereas in the USA GA is seen as a genuine utility and as a result of this all of GA benefits from the support of government and the representative bodies.
In the US\Canada I've yet to have any flying cancelled to wx. In the UK I must be roughly running at around 30%->40% of flying trips cancelled by wx. I suspect that's probably more likely to explain the view of GA as utility in NA rather than here in Europe.

[Pilotdom]

As I said, I think many are missing the point and trying too hard to seek justification. Fly because it's FUN and we ENJOY it........end of! :E


How someone wants to justify flying is up to them. The original question asked why people fly, not what others think the justification should be. Some will fly for fun, some will fly for utility and some for both reasons. How can you say someone is missing the point if they are happy with there reasons for doing it?

[IO540]

Yup, but sometimes both the journey and the destination are the reward! I guess what I am really saying is that being VFR and having a basic aircraft doesn't mean that you can't make long and interesting trips, it just means that you have to be flexible.

Very very flexible, Ian :)

BTW I am not taking bose-x's bait here. He's just got himself into the front seat of somebody's Malibu (a cheap SE pressurised piston with a dodgy engine installation which based on the huge in-flight failure stats I would not dare cross the Alps with) and suddenly anything unpressurised is not good enough.

I have tried trips in IFR in the past, but you are then flying to arrive, not flying for fun.

I think Rod1 you were not playing the game the right way. The curious thing about flying IFR is that one flies more or less exactly as one would fly if there were no rules, no ATC, no CAS. The only thing one cannot do is go off somewhere and do a bit of sight-seeing off-route. IFR is generally a lot less hassle.

[S-Works]

Oooooh bitter!! It's a group actually but lets not mince words. At least we have a reliable auto pilot.....:ok:

You are just jealous that you have to sit down low trying to avoid all that nasty weather in that slow old thing of yours, rather than just breezing over the top....
:p;)

[Chilli Monster]

If you HAVE to be somewhere ON TIME then the unfortunate fact is that private flight is not reliable enough. As for time, well, if you count the time to drive to the airfield, plan and check the a/c, fly, get taxi to final destination then flying will nearly ALWAYS TAKE LONGER!

Like Bose I'm afraid I have to disagree on both points. I think it's a misnomer by using (in your example) planning at the airfield - most of us will do it in the comfort of our homes the night before, so that comes out of the equation. Additionaly it's not a case of checking out (or even waiting) for a club hack - but an aircraft equipped for the task available when you want it.

I've used mine to be somewhere ON TIME - it works. In addition, for the criteria I suggested before, it doesn't take longer - it's quicker. An example for you:

I was in Nice in January, and flew out commercially. My return trip consisted of:

Check in - 2 hours before
Fog at Heathrow - 2 hours further delay
Flight - 2 hours
Waiting for stand at Heathrow - 1 hour (yes - really!)
Pick up Bags and get car - 1 hour
Drive to Nottingham - 2 hours

I could have done the same journey, door to door, in half the time using the TB20. It helps that I'm only 15 minutes from the airfield, plus I have an IFR alternate available 24 hours a day on the doorstep. Your experiences are possibly that you didn't find it reliable - for many of us that's not the case.

You are just jealous that you have to sit down low trying to avoid all that nasty weather in that slow old thing of yours, rather than just breezing over the top....

Well - if we're playing "altitude envy"......................... ;) (Behave boys).

[S-Works]

Well - if we're playing "altitude envy"......................... (Behave boys).


Bah!, I knew you would come and wave your willy!!!!
;):p

[fireflybob]

It also helps if your departure airfield is hassle free and convenient. The smaller less sophisticated airfields are often much more convenient time wise - 2 minute walk from ground to air side and as Chilli says you can so much of the preparation in advance and if you are doing a regular run you soon get to know the ropes.

I know which I would rather do, even if the a/c is quite basic. Yes there is the weather factor but that can apply to driving too sometimes!

[usedtofly]

Dudes, I don't want this to be a slanging match :(

Do what you will, how you want. I still maintain that using a small piston a/c VFR is limiting and time consuming. To be of any real use you need an IR and preferably a turbine twin :E

It's a bit like motorbikes, they may be quicker than a car but by the time you finish bu*gering about putting all the body armour on at one end and taking it off at the other, a short journey is still quicker by car.

Now in the case of UK road transport the majority of people can get from door to door over a 200 mile journey in 3 hours (3.5 max).

So I maintain what I said before........flying somewhere in the UK less than 200 miles away is just an excuse to have fun :p

Right, I'm off my soapbox so leave me be :}:}:}

UTF ;)

[IO540]

the majority of people can get from door to door over a 200 mile journey in 3 hours (3.5 max).

That's an average speed close to the speed limit. Possible at times, I agree. But there are huge swathes of the country where this cannot be achieved, even if you have a radar detector and a laser jammer.

However, going to France changes everything. Suddenly, driving is a real mess.

[PompeyPaul]

I thought Jeremy Clarkson and "Top Gear" already proved that going by car is faster than flying :O

[Oldpilot55]

And let us not forget the congestion on the roads, particularly on a bank holiday..our motorways can be nightmares.

[IO540]

I thought Jeremy Clarkson and "Top Gear" already proved that going by car is faster than flying

That stupid programme was so blatently rigged it was a total joke.

Any IFR tourer capable of making the distance in one leg would have beaten the car by a factor of about two times, and that assumes perfect driving conditions.

On top of that, that trip (approx Cannes to SE UK, IIRC) was a really good example of a plane being very effective. You have the cross channel hassle with the car (driving to/from Dover etc).

Only a hardened pilot would pretend that for example UK to Crete is convenient or cost effective - unless one can do it in one leg and fast i.e. a TBM700/850 / King Air etc and one has the huge funding (~£500-£700 per hour). The Meridian turboprop is no good because it would need to refuel twice (say, Switzerland, and again in Corfu if not sooner) which means nobody would buy one for that mission if doing it regularly.

Similarly, flights within the southern UK are not justifiable on utility terms unless one is going between say Lydd and St Mawgan, both of which are awful to get to on the surface. But S. UK to Scotland is something else.

What makes or breaks the intra-UK transport case is a proximity (or not) of the airport to where you want to go. This is what gives GA in the USA the massive advantage - most towns have a nearby runway which is maintained by the town, like roads and pavements are maintained here.

I generally don't fly to any place to which I can drive faster. That policy keeps the trips more interesting, and I think this is a mistake many new PPLs make - they stick to the familiar area and before they know it, they have got fed up with the whole business.

[VeriLocation]

Did the Dublin business trip today in the GA spam can (DA40 )from Halfpenny Green, took 1 hour 20 minutes to Dublin Weston ( much cheaper / friendlier than Int'l ) , taxi to Dublin city centre ( 6 miles ) took 1 hour 20 minutes.....taxi back took 2 hours as driver got lost ! Sums up some of the issues discussed here but sat at FL07 with perfect viz and smooth as smooth was priceless. See recorded track and speeds in jpg below.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/parovo/SCtJLg9JS3I/AAAAAAAAAa8/x5JVU34TM7g/s800/dublin2.JPG

[Whirlybird]

Flying to...go places? What a novel idea. A whole thread on it too!!!

I fly because I love flying. So do most of the pilots I know. Travel is also one of my hobbies/interests, but I prefer to let Ryanair or British Rail take the strain, if I don't drive; it's far cheaper and less hassle. And if it takes a little longer, which it rarely does, what's the rush?

[matt999]

I'm seeing that the reasons we fly are:-

1) pure fun, eg just enjoying the scenery/sunset etc and nothing else.

2) technical fun, eg flight planning, operation of the aircraft, using all that training.

3) business, eg meetings. Sometimes you get there quicker by plane, sometimes not, but the business side of things helps justify having fun on the way.

4) Private, eg visiting friends, relatives, taking the wife and family out for the day/week etc. and having fun on the way.

I am beginning to see the common thread running through this list.... fun

[sucksqueezeBANGstop]

I like to fly, cos of the sense of perspective it provides. It's a great way to shake off life's blues. Looking down on all the small houses, and small problems....

And for the freedom!

[Rod1]

On the face of it I am an ideal candidate to “utilise” an aircraft for work. I spend 3 weeks out of 4 in Europe, mostly Germany, Spain and Italy. But I do not see how it would work.

1st I am north mids based so 1 hour flying time from the cost.

Drive time to my aircraft is 20 min, it takes me 35min to EMA, so we have lost 15min so far.

To fly myself I would need 1 hour to plan/check notams sort out maps etc. (all dead time, it does not mater when I do this, it is time I have to spend to do the trip which I cannot use for anything else)

45 min to get the aircraft out, DI, and get her loaded and ready to go (all dead time)

Flight time to Italy must be 5 hours? (all dead time),

30 min to sort out parking / landing fees and get a taxi. (all dead time)

Total time (adjusted for 15 min saving) 7 hours 45 min, all dead time. Cost? £750ish?

To fly Squeasy jet (this is much more accurate than the above as I do it a lot)

1.5 hours before the flight, of which ½ and hour is dead (I can prepare for the meeting for the rest as I am sat in an acceptable work environment)

3 hour flight, of which 20 min is “dead”

45 min getting out and getting bags – all dead

Total time 5:15 of which 3:10 is productive and 2:05 is dead. Cost £60

So it costs more and wastes my time? I can understand you doing it because you can, but how can it make sense economically or from a time management point of view?

Rod1

[usedtofly]

Why do we fly?

Well actually, and I don't want to be too flippant here :O

Coz they pay me well to enjoy my work :E

Thinking about I probably wouldn't bother otherwise :eek:

Well you did ask........

UTF :}

[Chilli Monster]

Flight time to Italy must be 5 hours?

Which is the cut off point I use. On that basis I'd disagree that you're the ideal candidate - quite the reverse in fact.

Interesting point about time economy, utilising the travel time for work. Would this argument still be the same whilst sat in the terminal due to a 90 minute CFMU delay? (Let me know when your next trip is - I'll see what I can arrange ;) )

[S-Works]

So it costs more and wastes my time? I can understand you doing it because you can, but how can it make sense economically or from a time management point of view?

Flying to Paris for a meeting:

Self Fly:

I have nearly 2 miles of WW2 tarmac 300yrds from my front door, time to aircraft if I walk 2 minutes. Preflight, 5 mins. Time to climb to 22,000ft cruise to Pontoise and land 55 mins. Taxi to Paris office 20 mins.

Total Time: 1:27 lets say 2hrs for dawdling time:

Commercial:

2:30hrs to Luton Airport, 2hrs before for check in, 1hr flight, 1hr trying to get out of the airport, 20 mins taxi ride.

Total Time: 6:20

To get the 8am flight involves me getting up at around 3:30am and will usually mean an overnight stop or getting home very late and then being knackered the next day.

The problem with the logic here is that you are trying to apply GA utility value to aircraft that were designed for a different purpose. With all due respect to Rod an MCR is not a utility GA aircraft, it is a fun Day VFR aircraft.

To get utility you have to look at the bigger end of the spam cans, TB's Cessna etc and that gives you a 50/50 chance of utility use. To improve that you go bigger, Malibu, 421 etc and that improves things even further and then beyond that TBM's and then into the light jets.

All GA and all able to be flown by private pilots. The big assumption here is that everyone in GA is grubbing around finding coppers to rub together to get airborne as cheaply as possible. GA represents a much larger scene, it is just a scale off cost.

[Rod1]

“With all due respect to Rod an MCR is not a utility GA aircraft, it is a fun Day VFR aircraft”

You are absolutely correct, but I have £50k tied up in her. If I sold her and found one other person with £50k I assume I could get a reasonable IFR machine for £100k. Having spent 1800 hours building an aircraft, and being a reasonably experienced IMCR pilot, I would expect to be able to get an IR if I really needed one.

I can accept that Paris may work, but Span and Italy look non starters. Berlin takes me about 4.5 hours by squseyjet (all in), of which about 2.5 hours are free to work. What would your numbers look like?

Rod1

[IO540]

Much depends on the distance to the airport (both the GA one and the big one) and on the distance one needs to travel to the ultimate destination at the far end.

For the highest business travel value, you would (in most cases) fly your GA plane to the same big airport - because that is where the customer will naturally expect to meet you, and the meeting may even be held there - and take the landing and handling charges on the chin.

But I think this is digressing from the original Q.

The key thing is to structure one's flying so that one gets a regular dose of value out of it. The "value" can be just the fun of being in the air, or it can be going places one cannot easily get to by road, with great views enroute.

I arrange to fly at least once a week, which prevents me getting fed up with it, while maintaining good currency. With some long trips also, this comes to ~150hrs/year which is pretty reasonable.

One also needs to be clear about a good match between one's mission requirement and the plane one has. There is a tendency for owner pilots to move up and up in mission capability and eventually they end up flying something which is very complex, expensive, and with endless issues, and they get sick of it. I've known people who did this and suddenly gave up flying totally, which seemed a shame having come all that way. Similarly at the bottom end: I think a lot of people get into a low end C150-like spamcan and are disappointed that they cannot realistically fly it to southern Spain.

[S-Works]

It still stacks up.

In fact I am off to Berlin next week for the flyer trip. Airborne time is 2:30, other numbers remain the same.

Milan takes me 3:00hrs. Sweden, this week total flying time off 4:20.

The key for me here is not having to drive to an airport at an ungodly hour, not to have to queue through check in and security and not have to strip to my socks for 'security'. I am not tied to timetables and I don't need to use the 2hrs sat in an airport as an excuse to 'work'.

Even selling your MCR and finding someone else with another 50k only gets you a Tourer not complete business tool. I guess the point I am trying to make is look outside the box, the GA scene is much larger than farm strips and permits.

[mark sicknote]

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn105/captainbeligerant/CopyofP1020768.jpg

[IO540]

That's an excellent reason to fly :ok:

Unfortunately, she's married...

[Rod1]

“The key for me here is not having to drive to an airport at an ungodly hour, not to have to queue through check in and security and not have to strip to my socks for 'security'.”

So you are spending money and time and getting back an improved quality of life. I can understand this approach, but as I have to do X amount of work anyway, I think the extra non productive time would be the killer. By using my local airports and being “slick” with the system I have ironed out a lot of time and managed to utilize most of what is left. I would just have to spend 2 – 3 hours working the night before if I flew myself, which I would consider a reduction in my QOL.

Rod1

[FREDAcheck]

It pulls the chicks at parties.

Ha ha, suckers. Little do they realise that pilots are amongst the nerdiest race of people there are. Think avid D&D player crossed with train spotter.

Most of the smart ones DO realise. My wife's favourite jokes about pilots:
What’s the difference between God and a pilot? God doesn’t think he’s a pilot.

How do you know when you’re half way through your first date with a pilot? He says “enough about me, let’s talk about flying”.

Never ask someone you meet if they’re a pilot. If they are, they’ll soon tell you.
She's just commented: "No dear, they're not jokes. And be especially wary of ones that wear epaulettes or flying suits." Of course, none of those apply to me. I don't wear epaulettes.

[S-Works]

So you are spending money and time and getting back an improved quality of life. I can understand this approach, but as I have to do X amount of work anyway, I think the extra non productive time would be the killer. By using my local airports and being “slick” with the system I have ironed out a lot of time and managed to utilize most of what is left. I would just have to spend 2 – 3 hours working the night before if I flew myself, which I would consider a reduction in my QOL.

LOL, you will have to do more than that to convince me!! I never work on my own time thats what QOL is all about. It is the reason why I don't like to get up at an ungodly hour!! You are just trying to convince me that slick use of dead time at commercial airports is better than fitting everything in a normal sociable hours day. It won't happen!!!

GA gives me great utility and great productivity as well as improving the quality of my life by keeping freeing more time for me!

[mark sicknote]

Oh dear,

Have I diverted the thread....

But true...we ARE the most boring people to meet socially...especially if there are more than one of us in any given location.

Maybe thats why ATC keeps us well separated!

Best,

Sicknote:ok:


PS - Hawk eyes - didn't notice the ring...sigh:eek:

[IO540]

How do you know when you’re half way through your first date with a pilot? He says “enough about me, let’s talk about flying”.

Actually, it goes

How do you know when you’re half way through your first date with a pilot? He says “enough about flying, now let’s talk about ME”.

[FREDAcheck]

IO540, I stand corrected!

[VeriLocation]

After two years of using the DA40 for business trips usually twice a week I have developed some rules which allow me to work out if using the plane is ahead of the only other options of car or public transport. Any no answers stop me from taking the plane:
1. is the journey more than 2 hours away driving
2. is the weather forecast good
3. is the local airfield less than half an hour by taxi away from the client ( any longer and the taxi fare is usually more than the fuel cost to get there )
4. is the meeting before 3pm
5. where needed, any Jet A1 available but DA40 has 6 hour range so never an issue.

Best trips from midlands are northern France, Belgium, Netherlands, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, South West, East Anglia, north of Manchester and south of M25 early morning or Friday afternoons when driving is a complete no no. If I had a bigger engine and hence speed then this range would grow accordingly but then would need an IR to get best benefit - DA50 ideal candidate. Beauty of the DA40 is that it is simple to fly , low complexity, high on features like autopilot , G1000 and low fuel cost - just needs another engine manufacturer.....