Tail Wheel Tips ???

[d192049d]

Have just finished my 1st hour of circuits in a decathlon! So what you may say, but having close to 200 hours nosewheel, I could not believe how challenging it was! Never felts so far behind the aircraft...perhaps its me?

Stick fully forward when applying full power was so counter intuitative. I was far to vague with the rudder and at one point felt the aircraft wanted to do a 180...thank god the instructor was on the ball.

Any way my question....anybody got any "secrets to success" or "words of wisdom" on getting to grips with this new challenge?

[Lasiorhinus]

That sounds about normal for anyone trying a tailwheel aircraft for the first time.

It does get easier with practise, and the first few hours, you'll find are much easier on grass than on asphalt, too.

[Studefather]

Within a few circuits, you should find that your feet become more "alive" than was required for trike u/c. You will gradually and subconsciously accept less and less deviation from centreline, correcting even the smallest error without realising it. (I now have a tendency to zigzag on landing with nosewheel types with sensitive steering)

Nailing the recommended short finals and threshhold speeds becomes very important. Once you can do this then you have repeatability of conditions at the flare and can begin to refine the landing.

Don't ever expect better than one good 3 pointer in ten!!!!

[Blink182]

One thing thats essential and critical for taildraggers........

Remember where the horizon is in relation to the windscreen whilst sitting in the three point attitude..........try to spend a couple of minutes before take off ( traffic permitting ) and keep that same mental picture for the landing.

[betterfromabove]

Was in a Cub, but one thing I was surprised at was that take-offs were more tricky to start with than landings in the Cub, especially with any kind of x-wind.

Then one day an instructor pointed out to keep that full aileron in until after rotation if necessary. Trying to remove it as wheels lift off is asking for trouble.

Agree with sitting in the aircraft just for the hell of it to get that 3-point attitude nailed.

If you fly lots of T/W then go back to N/W, you'll have lots of fun...I found I needed to do a little mental "conversion" back again to stop dancing with my feet & hauling back on the stick like an idiot!

[foxmoth]

If you find after landing that you still bounce around, check you have the stick fully back once you are properly on the ground. Also for crosswinds, make sure you track down the runway using wing down, then just keep the nose of the aircraft pointing straight down the runway at all times, just varying the wing down to stay in line - crab technique can be used, but IMHO is much harder.

[wrecker]

I would echo Foxmoths comments and add ... Be very aware where the wind is coming from when taxying and remember to keep the stick in the appropriate position.

[pheeel]

watch out for any power on with brakes! = bad combo! eg. when turning with a cross wind, if the wind is from the left, and you are trying to turn right, and you are needing more and more right brake and more and more power,....shut down, and turn it by hand! wind on fuselage and tail will act as if left brake on too, so increasing power and brake on right will happily tip it on it's nose! happened to someone with a supercub at my site, now i am aeroplaneless until engine and prop comes back...:{

[Jetscream 32]

I have four digit expereince in tailwheels and unitil recently had my own super cub - that i wish i had never sold - boo hoo :{ - and i also have lots of hours on Citabria's - they do a magnificent flick roll......... anyway - for starters at the start of the take off roll i never allowed fellow pilots to have the stick fully forward, i used to get them to have it if fully aft then after about 3 - 5 seconds after brake release then progressively get the tail up - the reason for it was that you have much greater rudder / tail wheel authority compared with getting the tail straight up in the air with minimal ground speed and weather cocking - however with all taildraggers you must listen to them as they all tell you when they want to go flying and very few of them are difficult to fly, you must remember to use your feet, you must think when taxying and always have aileron into wind and stick fully forward when taxying downwind etc, and never ever be too afraid to shut it down and push it back after landing if it is too gusty - sloppy pilots that fly out of balance or without co-ordination will have a hard time in a tailwheel - however once you have polished your skills and mastered the 3 point and wheeler landing, full sideslip approaches and STOL techniques you will never get near a tricycle again - they are undoubtedly the best type of flying machine invented - but i am a little biased flying the Stearman..... :O bring on the sunshine........!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I found this sitting on my desk top and must have forgot to finish it........sooo what the hell airplanes should fly the same in Britian as in Canada so here is an incompleted how to land thing for you to read.:E

******************************************




Lets have a look at the wheel landing.

In another thread I offered some thoughts on how to judge height and situational awareness during a landing in nose wheel airplanes and figured what the hell I might as well offer some suggestions on how to perform a wheel landing.

During the training for crossover from nose wheel airplanes to tail wheel airplanes there is a tendency on the part of instructors to focus on full stall three point landings.

Why there is this concentration on three point landings is interesting because in almost every tail wheel airplane that is available the wheel landing gives best directional control, especially with a X/wind.

So first lets look at the Flight Training Manual and see what that has to say regarding wheel landings.

There is not really much there except a short paragraph that is fuzzy at best in describing how to perform a smooth safe wheel landing.

In fact I find the description for this landing to be quite interesting.

Quote:

( From the Flight Training Manual.)

The approach should be normal with or without power according to the conditions of the day, to the point where the descent is checked. The airspeed is then decreased to the point at which the aircraft settles. Adjust the power at this point so as to descend in a level attitude at a slow rate ( approximately 100 to 300 feet per minute).

You will not be able to watch the vertical speed indicator during this stage, but with practice you can easily estimate the descent rate. A fast rate of descent could cause a hard contact with the surface, followed by a downward rotation of the tail through inertia and a subsequent bounce back up into the air. Small control adjustments only should be used as the aircraft settles to assist in descending slowly and maintain a level attitude. As the wheels smoothly contact the surface , apply gentle but firm forward pressure to hold the wheels on the ground and decrease the angle of attack. The aircraft should be held on the wheels nearly level, until it has slowed sufficiently to ensure full control in a three point attitude under existing conditions.


I teach the wheel landing a little differently, especially with regard to the rate of descent issue prior to wheel contact with the surface.

From a normal approach attitude and airspeed you commence the flare at a height which will result in the airplane being in the level attitude as the flare is completed and at the same time making contact with the surface, at wheel contact with the surface you lower the nose attitude sufficiently enough to change the angle of attack to produce zero or negative lift.

This can be done in two ways, my preference is to have the airplane trimmed hands off for the approach speed to make the approach less work and at surface contact use a slight forward movement of the elevator control to pin the airplane to the surface by dumping the lift vector.

Some pilots use nose down trim and just relax the back pressure at wheel contact, however that can pose a bit of an irritation if you need to go around for any reason as you now have a nose heavy airplane to start the climb out with.

The best prescription for a good wheel landing is quite simple…..flare at the correct height so as to not have to extend the landing distance and time in the air adjusting the rate of descent in the level attitude getting rid of height you didn’t need in the first place.

[Piper.Classique]

Get a copy of Stick and Rudder by Langweisch
Still in print, assumes you will be flying conventional gear. Good on all aspects of flying, too. Look on Amazon.
Oh, and practice.......

[ContinentalC85]

Another first class tailwheel book....
The Compleat Taildragger

[18greens]

Good news you are going tailwheel, all the proper pliots fly tailwheel.

Once you have mastered it you will understand why nosewheels are referred to as landomatic.

Hope you like the Decathlon. Its a pussy cat on grass but always a firm arrival on concrete (and I've never understood why). When you can P1 from the back seat then you know you can fly.

[Tail-take-off]

The Decathlon is a delight to fly but of the 10 or so tail graggers types I have flown it has to be the easiest to take off & land.

d192049d I am really not trying to belittle the challenge or your sense of achievment when you master the decathlon. You will be a bonefide member of a different class of aviator. But if you fancy a real challenge get someone to check you out on an Auster, Chipmunk or a Tigermoth! The quirky brakes (or lack of) as well as their flying & landing characteristics will send you all over the runway.

I used to check people out on an Auster years ago & can vouch for the invaluable information in The Compleat Taildragger Pilot. I leant it to each person I checked out!

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0a/b2/e42c1363ada0e59c7cd7e010._AA240_.L.jpg

[SNS3Guppy]

A conventional gear airplane doesn't require a different skill set than an airplane with a nosewheel. It just requires that things be done properly. Slight misalignment on landing or when taking off, for example, is often not nearly as noticable, and the results not nearly as tangible, in a tricycle gear airplane. A tailwheel makes you work more honestly (some say harder, though I don't believe it) to achieve the same results.

Remember that your takeoff and landing attitudes, both two and three point, are the same as sitting in the airplane on the ground in your parking spot. Your three point attitude is the same as the airplane at rest. To practice getting the two point attitude down, put the tailwheel on a set of sawhorses or a truck bed and sit in the cockpit. Close your eyes, envision the takeoff or landing, then open them and see what you'll see when the airplane touches down, or the tailwheel lifts off. Getting the correct sight picture is half the battle.

I understand what's being said about hesitancy to push the stick forward on takeoff, but that will go away after a few takeoffs, and a few landings.

When it's calm, in some airplanes I like to hold the tailwheel up with forward pressure after a two point landing, and retract the flaps as I apply forward stick. The tail comes down as the flaps go up, and once the tail is down I can pin it with full aft stick.

On takeoff, just the opposite. Some tailwheel airplanes I fly require flaps as part of the takeoff procedure, either before applying power, or during the takeoff roll. While you're learning, I recommend not changing the aircraft configuration while you're on the roll. With a little experience, however, it's a useful rough field technique, to protect the flaps and allow a little quicker acceleration. One type I flew had a STOL system that drooped the ailerons, and the takeoff technique involved moving full forward stick while applyin full flaps, to get the tail up. (Due to the runway length, as soon as the tail was up it was full aft stick to clear obstacles on the end and the runway was behind...).

I think it's helpful to think of the tailwheel as having a maximum acceptable range; just a very little bit to the right or left behind you, before it starts to take on a mind of it's own. Within that range, something just a little less than the spread of the gear, you're okay. Let it go beyond that, it's going to take brake to catch the turn, and you may not be able to do it. That's where groundloops happen. If you can keep the tailwheel caged so it doesn't move right or left but a short distance, you won't have any problems. The way to do that is to catch small motions early, and get your control inputs in early...be ahead of the airplane instead of behind it, reacting to it. This comes with experience,and it won't take much at all to get the hang of it. Sort of like riding a bicycle...but with a third wheel.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

A conventional gear airplane doesn't require a different skill set than an airplane with a nosewheel. It just requires that things be done properly....

.........I think it's helpful to think of the tailwheel as having a maximum acceptable range; just a very little bit to the right or left behind you, before it starts to take on a mind of it's own. Within that range, something just a little less than the spread of the gear, you're okay. Let it go beyond that, it's going to take brake to catch the turn, and you may not be able to do it. That's where groundloops happen. If you can keep the tailwheel caged so it doesn't move right or left but a short distance, you won't have any problems. The way to do that is to catch small motions early, and get your control inputs in early...be ahead of the airplane instead of behind it, reacting to it. This comes with experience,and it won't take much at all to get the hang of it. Sort of like riding a bicycle...but with a third wheel.

This is spot on, and it all comes with experience. I wince when I see nosewheel aeroplanes landed 3-point (as oh so many are!!!), with little or no hold-off. It hurts the aeroplane, and it's poor technique. A tailwheel aeroplane would reject that pilot's poor landing with a nose-high bounce, which will require to be correctly addressed by the errant pilot if it's to be recovered.

Tailwheel aeroplanes simply require that you land correctly. That's all. If you don't, they'll present you with a situation you'll need to sort out.

Nosewheel aeroplanes will accept sloppy tecnique - untill the nosewheel gives way, not neccessarily during a poor landing but perhaps as a result of an earlier lazy landing by someone who just doesn't care - or hasn't been taught.

SSD

[DB6]

Another endorsement for the Compleat Taildragger Pilot. It will save you far more in training time than it costs, believe me!

[robin]

......my preference is to have the airplane trimmed hands off for the approach speed to make the approach less work and at surface contact use a slight forward movement of the elevator control to pin the airplane to the surface by dumping the lift vector.

Some pilots use nose down trim and just relax the back pressure at wheel contact

Not sure I understand that technique. Surely once on the ground you have full aft stick to kill any tendency for it to take-off again. Effectively a 3-point attitude is in or close to a fully-stalled state, so why would you want to unstall the wing?

[stickandrudderman]

If you've ever ridden a motorbike in heavy traffic, you'll know what it's like to be at an increased state of alertness compared to your nice comfy Mercedes.
It's the same with taildraggers!

[foxmoth]

Not sure I understand that technique. Surely once on the ground you have full aft stick to kill any tendency for it to take-off again. Effectively a 3-point attitude is in or close to a fully-stalled state, so why would you want to unstall the wing?

Chuck was talking about the wheeler landing here, not the 3 pointer, so you are not unstalling the wing, merely reducing the angle of attack so that you do not become airborne again, from touchdown you then progressively move the stick forward as the speed falls so that you keep the aircraft level and the tail up in the slipstream, eventually when you run out of airspeed the tail will drop with the stick fully forward (in a strong wind it is possible to actually stop with some power on and the tail still up - not recommended for any but the most experienced!:=), it is then that you bring the stick fully aft.

[robin]

Ah - I understand. I flew with someone who tried that with too much speed on and we nearly tipped over

[d192049d]

Did another two hours today....very inconsistent and still struggling to master the landing and still too light on the rudder ...must be more authoritative! Also found my achilles heal or should I say foot!! They are too big and try as I might, they keep riding up the pedals onto the brakes. I think that this was the main reason why almost ground looped today.We started drifting off to the right of the runway and in goes the left boot to bring us back...before I know it we are 90 degrees to the runway heading and the poor chap behind had to go around [sorry by the way, I know not what I do].

Anyway we get right back in the saddle, line up and off we go again.

Am determined to keep going with this and I will master it, jsu think I need smaller feet! Do transair do these?

M

[formationfoto]

YOu will master it I am sure. Remember fifty years ago initial training was taildragger. It isnt that difficult just different. Im sure you will have been told about all of those forces conspiring to puch you into the grass at the side of the runway but they are just that - known forces which you control out.

Nose wheel aircrfat with forgiving underccariage arrangements just make us a bit lazy.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Training a nose wheel pilot to fly a tail wheel airplane is mostly an exercise in controlling yaw on the ground by the use of rudder.

I spend as much time as it takes on the ground to get them used to controlling yaw.

This involves slow speed directional control and loss of control, then we use the runway for high speed runs down the runway with the tail in the air, once they can keep it straight then we learn to S turn down the runway.

When they have that all sorted out we go flying.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

But, Chuck, what about the hold-off? The biggest sin I see in nosewheel pilots is they don't hold off and they land 3-point or nearly so. In a tailwheel aeroplane that won't wash. So don't you find you need to teach them that skill? That ability to hold off the aeroplane from landing until it just quits flying and settles on? Most guys can get their feet in gear after a while and keep it straight (albeit with a bit of overcontrolling initially), but getting that hold-off right, and recovering from the bounce if you dont, takes practice I'd say.

SSD

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Shaggy.....of course I teach them that....:ok:

....in fact that is almost as important as being able to keep the .u.kin thing from running off the runway spinning round and round. :sad:

Remember the rule....a perfect touch down impresses no one if you lose control and wreck it during the roll out. :E

[IFMU]

I got a checkout in a BC12D one time, and I was doing some very nice landings. On one landing, short final, the instructor pulls out a map, opens it up, starts reaching for stuff over on my side, had me completely distracted and I did a crappy landing- then recovered. He said "Now that's what I wanted to see, let's go back and I'll sign you off."

-- IFMU

[lostpianoplayer]

...to all the advice you have here already. I, too, have "4 digit" experience in taildraggers (just - must be something like 1000 hours, between the Harmon Rocket, the Spezio Tuholer, and a little Citabria time) and have spent quite a bit of time flying with newbies in taildraggers. I must emphasise, though that I'm not an instructor....but, while I agree that the recommended books are really good, a fun read, educational and so on, I personally think the answer is:

"don't think too much, look out the window, relax, and KEEP IT STRAIGHT" !!

I don't mean to sound glib, it's just that the physics of what's going on in, say, a taildragger take off are quite multi-faceted. All that "gyroscopic precession when you lift the tail" stuff...and so on, and so on. I really think the key is, as Chuck alluded to, yaw control - which is a fancy way of saying KEEP IT STRAIGHT. So you nearly groundlooped? Don't overthink it - keep it straight, and you won't. Pitch control on the takeoff or landing roll? Look out the window!! Not at the foreground, but at something a long way away - and don't accept ANY deviation from perfectly straight down the middle of the runway, while you're learning anyway. Do that, and groundloops will be as likely as landing gear up in your Decathlon.

I'm pretty sure if you took a 200 hour nosewheel pilot, put them into a Decathlon, and could somehow get them to worry less, and just keep it straight, then they'd find it easier than rushing in with a head full of theory, and the old saw that "there's those who HAVE groundlooped, and those who will". (This is BS, BTW) Truth is, you'll never groundloop if you keep it straight. I know that when I did my tailwheel rating, 10 years ago now, I had too much going on in the brain, and not enough in the feet. In retrospect, having done lots of reading, I was quite intimidated, and I don't think that was ideal. I reckon being relaxed is probably the best way to prevent overcontrolling or PIO...

I would agree that it's best not to push hard forward on the stick straight away on the T/O roll. Perserving tailwheel heaviness gives you more chance of achieving the primary goal (did I mention? KEEP IT STRAIGHT :) and then when you do bring the tail up you've got more airspeed, which will help to, you guessed it, keep it straight. Also, no reason not to bring the power in more gently on T/O, when you're learning, which will help you...keep it straight. OK, I'll stop now.

With a little practice, I agree with some here that the wheel landing is the better. You can land with more accuracy, you're not stalled, and then when you put her down you've got much better control. I would wheel land all taildraggers, all the time, except for very limited circumstances, ie 1. very low prop clearance, such as in the Pitts, where I'm told 3 pointers are better, 2. forced landings onto rough terrain, where you want to not flip over, and 2. VERY careful landings onto soft, eg muddy, terrain. Although you gotta be careful there, and you won't be doing any of that stuff yet. For all other reasons, including short landings, I'll do a wheel landing every time.

Hope that's useful. Do persist - once you can do it, it's hard to go back to aircraft with the little wheel at the boring end...it also brings a sense of accomplishment, as well as access to many very interesting aeroplanes, which would otherwise not be accessible. It's no accident, I think, that even now some of the most interesting high performance aircraft are taildraggers. Apart from everything else, they're just more fun...

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Lostpianoplayer.....

:D:D:D:D:D:D

:ok::ok::ok:

[barit1]

Does anyone detect the ambiguous terminology we are using here?

I find it fascinating that after 50+ years of the aviation industry trying to convince us that tricycle gear is "conventional", we diehards still regard the taildragger as "conventional"! :ok:

[shortstripper]

Lostpianoplayer,

Good post ... BTW, I've always liked the look of the Spezio Tuholer as it looks like a real "sports" aeroplane (though it's probably underpowered in reality?).

The only thing I'd pick you up on is your example wheelers for short landings. You can do short wheeler landings, but they will nearly always be longer than three point ones . Other than that I agree completely with your post.

SS

[Crash one]

I got signed off about 2 flying hrs ago having managed 4 decent landings in a row (10hrs training). However I am still getting half of them not as good as I would like, I won't take a pax yet, I think it is the threshold speed that I havn't nailed yet. Five touch & goes today, no wind at all, two perfect, one serious bounce, throttle up & go, two bouncy but controllable.
Is this about average or am I going backwards?

[Piper.Classique]

Five touch & goes today, no wind at all, two perfect, one serious bounce, throttle up & go, two bouncy but controllable.
Is this about average or am I going backwards?

Sounds about right. Tired tuggies do about that proportion except for throttle up and go.......:D

[Crash one]

Quote:
Five touch & goes today, no wind at all, two perfect, one serious bounce, throttle up & go, two bouncy but controllable.
Is this about average or am I going backwards?
Sounds about right. Tired tuggies do about that proportion except for throttle up and go.......:D

Thank you, I feel a bit better now, try again tomorrow.

[J.A.F.O.]

I posted something similar to this a little while ago so I apologise to anyone who has read it but I thought that it might help d192049d - Catchy name by the way.

If you read The Compleat Taildragger Pilot by Harvey S. Plourde, and you should; he lists seven reasons for learning to fly a tailwheel aircraft. As I could tick five of them I thought that it was probably time that I bit the bullet and booked some lessons to give it a go. Like many people trying to support a flying habit I have to do so around family commitments and earning almost enough to pay for it; therefore time is somewhat limited and it was for that reason that I unwittingly set myself the challenge of learning to fly a taildragger in two and a half days.

After looking around and taking some advice from friends and magazines alike, as well as from Pprune, I ended up calling The Northampton School of Flying at Sibson. I was lucky enough to speak to Lucy Kimbell who arranged enough slots within the time to make it seem possible for me to do it. I arrived at a somewhat gusty Sibson on Wednesday morning with eight slots booked before two-thirty on Friday and only the tiniest inkling of what I was letting myself in for.

The welcome at Sibson was warm and friendly and I was given a full tour before being introduced to the school’s Chief Flying Instructor; he checked out my pitifully empty logbook and didn’t even wince at my still shiny licence before taking me to the hangar to meet G-ARVO, the school’s bright yellow Piper PA-18-95. In General Aviation there seems to be something to suit every taste and most pockets; a lot of people fall for sleek and shiny glass fibre rockets with televisions where the dials should be; glass on the inside, glass on the outside but I’d fallen in love with this sixty year old fabric covered machine; I could just about imagine sitting inside, floating high above the English countryside; dope on the outside, dope on the inside, you might say.

We dragged G-ARVO from the hangar and I was guided through a thorough pre-flight inspection before we came to the week’s first big challenge. How does a six-foot healthily built chap get himself into the pilot’s seat? With some difficulty, is the simple answer but eventually, and with a complete absence of grace and style, I was in. There is very little inside a Cub to check and so we were soon started and taxying, my instructor explained that he’d talk me through a take-off and then we’d head out for some general handling before coming back for my first tailwheel landing. I was amazed at the visibility from the front seat, if you’re six feet tall with only about twenty-five percent of that made up of short, fat hairy legs then the view over the nose is quite exceptional. We taxied out to the end of 24 and the throttle beside me gently opened as the instructor in the rear seat raised the tail; I never did work out how he kept it that straight, didn’t smash the propeller into a thousand splinters or saw past my prop forward’s shoulders but, before I had time to take anything in, we were airborne. It had all been quite disconcerting as the aircraft took off with no-one visibly controlling it; just a quiet, calm confidence behind me.

I was given control - for want of a better word - and I climbed quite slowly in the direction of Molesworth, the view over the nose and out of both sides was incredible, here I was perched under those little yellow wings flying one of the icons of light aviation. I don’t have a lot to compare the Cub to but I loved it right from the start, a proper stick and a proper throttle and an aeroplane that you could feel moving underneath you. Once I’d got the hang of something different then the turns were great fun and the stall never really happened, I’m sure with a decent headwind you’d just end up back at the airfield without turning round or the nose ever nodding downwards. Then someone took control of my proper throttle and closed it.

‘Let’s try a forced landing. Seventy knots for the glide.’

The Cub seemed to hang in the air and I therefore chose a field which was only about three miles further than we could possibly ever glide from two and a half thousand feet. Some timely intervention and demonstration of a side slip - in which the world pauses and merely moves up the windscreen - we would have made a lovely landing in the brown corduroy of quite a different field altogether.

Then it was back to Sibson for my first ever tailwheel landing. In a tailwheel aircraft you must be heading dead straight at touchdown; however, that is no guarantee of the way you will be heading three nanoseconds later, or three nanoseconds after that. If you don’t dance on the rudder pedals like Fred Astaire on cocaine then the aircraft could go any way at all and you could end up in a groundloop where the aircraft turns round by itself and has a look at where you came from. They say that there are two types of tailwheel pilot; those who have groundlooped and those who are waiting to; for me the waiting was almost over.

The circuit and descent were as I’d always done before, with the aeroplane clearly not giving a damn where its wheels were, the flare was very similar and then we were down; after a fashion. My feet were clearly half a swing behind my brain which was another half a swing behind the aeroplane. With all that swinging going on it was only a matter of time before G-ARVO slowly and gracefully turned round to give me a view of the approach.

A coffee, debrief and some good natured questioning about why the CFI had had to get out of the aeroplane and turn it round by hand before we taxied back and it was time for some more. If you’ve ever been to a summer fete where one of the attractions was a crazy bicycle where nothing is connected the right way round and none of your inputs seem to affect a machine with a will of its own then you will have an idea of how the taxying went. If you’ve ever fallen off one of those bicycles then you know all there is to know about my first take-off.

Circuit after circuit followed with the occasional decent landing and the odd almost reasonable take-off; though never together in the same circuit but we ended the day with an unaided take-off and landing that we not only survived but managed to keep the aircraft all in one piece, too.

By the end of the day I was completely shattered and probably sweatier than anyone you’d ever choose to share a cockpit with. This aeroplane was delightful to fly but nigh on impossible to take-off or land. As I drove away from the airfield a red kite hung four feet above a bush, judging the wind perfectly and hanging in the air while it watched its prey; I know that bird’s beaks don’t actually allow them to smirk at passing motorists, however...

Day two of two and a half arrived and we waited in NSF’s clubhouse for the showers to pass. People had said to me that learning to fly a taildragger was like learning to fly all over again, it wasn’t, it was far more difficult; more like learning to juggle, in public and starting off with four flaming torches rather than two bean bags.

Three hours of circuits and bumps later and, while I was assured that it was coming together and it would soon just click into place, I wasn’t sure that I’d ever master this lark. I’d more or less got the idea of taxying; getting the weight off the tailwheel ever so slightly, bursts of power to get round, always thinking of where the wind was; it seemed like an expensive lesson in moving an aeroplane on the ground. I'd now been taught to feel when the aeroplane was right and get the picture right rather than chasing numbers and I could now feel when she was ready to fly, when she was getting too slow or too fast. When it looked right and felt right then it had to be right. I’m sure that it was coming together, just as I was told, it seemed a little bit more possible each time, the aeroplane and I at least shared the decision making now, rather than it all being up to G-ARVO. I was feeling a little dejected, though; I was a pilot, I had a licence, I should be making more of the decisions.

Friday dawned clearer and brighter with a lighter wind which almost lined up with the runway, I was feeling brighter too. If only I could almost line up with the runway at some point before two-thirty then we might even get this done. Today I was flying with another of the club’s instructors and one of the few men who can make a six-foot, sixteen stone ex-rugby player feel small; I felt quite sorry for little G-ARVO as we dragged her into the sun.

I started her up and taxied round to the holding point, quick bursts of power to move the slipstream over that rudder and get her round. Power checks complete and ready for departure. Onto 24, nice and straight, add power gently bringing the tail up at the same time, speed increasing, dancing on the pedals anticipating the swing before it started, ease off that forward pressure as we meet the slight bump on the runway then continue to ease it off and we’re airborne. Climbing out but not for long.

‘Level it off there,’ I'm instructed, ‘I get hypoxic if we go any higher than this.’

As a low-houred PPL, who is used to climbing out to two and a half thousand feet where everybody else is, to have levelled out whilst not quite at circuit height is a new one on me.

‘You’re a taildragger pilot, now.’

I was guided me to Deenethorpe along a track the instructor knew well; pointing out the site of Fotheringhay castle where Mary lost her head, the faint tracks of Roman roads still marking the landscape beneath, crop marks that showed where people had lived two thousand years before, looking up at this sky that was now mine. Green fields bordered by darker hedgerows; the occasional church spire in a far off village; clouds of dust following harvesting tractors; fluffy white cumulus clouds in the unending blue above and around me; the feel of an aeroplane that wanted to fly and almost seemed to enjoy this as much as me.

Deenethorpe, asphalt, less forgiving than grass for tailwheel pilots, I’m told. Straight in, all looking good, all feeling good. Straight down the middle, holding it off, keeping her flying, holding off, all three wheels touch, we’re straight, we’re staying straight. The power increases slightly, just enough to raise the tail and steer down the middle of the runway; I’m clenching my teeth so tight I think that I might break them but we stay fairly straight and then open the throttle to fly off and do it again and again. Whilst I am still working hard, it is all falling into place, I am getting this, I am not a completely uncoordinated buffoon after all. I could do this all day if I could afford to but if God had meant us to fly he would have given us more money.

Off to Conington, a landaway, I haven’t done nearly enough of those since I got my licence. Join downwind, checks complete, turn base, start the descent, turn finals, the winds thirty degrees off and fourteen knots; time for more teeth clenching. It all seems to work, though and the little waggle into wind after landing isn’t too embarrassing. We park up and unfold ourselves from the aircraft for coffee and bacon sandwiches before the return to Sibson and a three pointer that stays straight.

‘Okay,’ I'm told, ‘go over towards the masts, get the feel of it without me in it, have some fun and come back when you’re ready.’

I’m going solo.

The tail moves round much more easily with only me on board, sat up front. Open the throttle and the tail comes up easily, we’re airborne before I’ve had the chance to worry about it swinging. Climb out and have some fun, that’s what the man said. She climbs more quickly and I’m soon up at three thousand feet, finding my way round turns, climbing, descending, just plain looking out of the window and smiling. The winds been a bit gusty and has been varying by thirty degrees either side of the runway and up to sixteen knots, then I hear the club's Tiger Moth on final.

‘230 at 8 knots,’ he’s told.

Sounds like it’s time for me to head back before it changes its mind.

Join downwind, run through my checks, here we go. Everything looks good on final and the wind hasn’t changed its mind. Power off, flare, hold it off, she floats more now than before, keep holding off, all three points.

‘Nine and a half out of ten.’ The radio informs me.

I taxy in and shut down at twenty-eight minutes past two; two minutes short of my deadline.

So, it seems as though it is possible to go from groundloop to greaser in two and a half days, even with my lack of co-ordination, but you have to be very lucky; lucky with the school you choose, lucky with your instructors, lucky with the weather and lucky with aircraft serviceability and the engineers that keep it that way.

It’s a challenge but it’s impossible to overstate what it will do for your confidence and enthusiasm for flying.

Sorry to gabble on so much but I thought it might help if you knew that other people felt like idiots, too.

[barit1]

Delightful, and I think we've all shared a bit of that experience at one time or another!

:ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Marvelous story...makes it worth while reading Pprune!!!:D:D:D:D

[BroomstickPilot]

Whenever taildraggers are mentioned, so also is the dreaded groundloop. However, no one ever seems to tell you in advance how to recognise the onset of a groundloop or what to do when the symptoms appear.

The usual prelude to a groundloop is that during a landing roll in a strong crosswind your aircraft will suddenly swerve about 20 degrees into wind and will show every likelihood of running off the side of the runway. As you slow down, the directional deviation becomes more and more marked, until suddenly the aircraft will slew into a very tight turn finishing up facing back in the direction from which you have just come.

The important thing is to take immediate action as soon as you see that first swerve. I believe, experienced taildragger pilots can correct this with engine and brake, although I have never done this myself as I have never been able to afford sufficient flying to maintain the level of currency required.

So while you are still learning I would suggest you do what I was taught to do forty years ago. Whenever doing a cross wind landing in a significant crosswind prepare yourself in advance to be ready to do a go-around at an instant's notice. As soon as you see that initial swerve, power on and go around.

Broomstick.

[ehwatezedoing]

Good story J.A.F.O. :ok:

One more thing about taildraggers that I which someone would have told me before I got caught.

Beside having to keep it straight, I thought you could only bounce on landings but you can also do it pretty badly during take off rolls.
(out of unprepared runways with little bumps on the way, bumps catching the main wheels)
This, if you don't pay attention and if you don't give the quick stick forward movement to break the lift/bounce at the correct moment.

It took me a good 50hrs to get that correct 'bounce versus stick' timing and the aggressiveness that goes with it :ouch:

This trick was actually the hardest thing I had to learn about the Beech 18.
At the time I never flew taildraggers before and I was somehow set free after 5 hrs on it.

[Them thar hills]

D192
FWIW when doing a tailwheel conversion the learning curve is very steep !
There's loads of well meant hints.
"Stick forward when the power goes on", well, maybe if you must, just don't apply that "golden rule" on a soggy wet field, not if you pay for your own propellers !
Personally, I prefer to get the aircraft rolling with a good amount of rearward stick applied, and once moving, then start to get the tail up. There's lots of variables, eg - little mainwheels don't roll well on soggy surfaces. Some braking systems aren't all that user friendly.
Similarly the "dancing on the rudder pedals" is a helpful reminder not to let your feet forget what they're supposed to be doing. However if you watch an experienced tailwheel pilot you'll see very little going on at the rear end of the aircraft. No furious pedalling to be seen. It's all about anticipation and timing. Make small corrections early, not large ones late.
When you finally get into the groove, you'll not remember making a conscious control input at all !
By the way, it's great fun, don't try too hard. In a few hours you'll wonder what all the fuss was about ........:)

[Pitts2112]

Similarly the "dancing on the rudder pedals" is a helpful reminder not to let your feet forget what they're supposed to be doing. However if you watch an experienced tailwheel pilot you'll see very little going on at the rear end of the aircraft. No furious pedalling to be seen.

You've never watched a Pitts land, have you? ;) Great for the first 100 feet of rollout, then they'll try every which way to have a look over your shoulder! :)

[Them thar hills]

2112
Having flown one, truthfully not regularly, it didn't seem unduly hard !
But short coupled tailwheelers can be spirited.
Variety is the spice of life. Generally the smaller the aircraft the more difficult they are, and things happen much quicker. Not just Pittses.
I don't believe in pedalling for the fun of it !
tth

[Pilot DAR]

Yes, things happen quicker in smaller taildraggers than big ones, but when it happens in a big one, it takes a lot more time to get it right again. A DC-3 headed for the runway lights is a lot more scary than it looks, because its not coming right back when you get the pedal in!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A DC-3 headed for the runway lights is a lot more scary than it looks, because its not coming right back when you get the pedal in!

So how did you get it back under control? :E

[Pitts2112]

TTHills, As you say, it's not unduly hard, but it also won't respond to small adjustments. When it gets down to lower groundspeeds it can take full rudder deflection and sometimes brake to keep the swing from developing. Hence you'll often see a Pitts' rudder flapping back and forth quite a bit in the waning moments of the rollout.

DAR, I'll guessing that DC-3 momentum problem is exaserbated by having no propwash over the tail, too?

[Pilot DAR]

Wide runway, busy feet, some brake, but that's not the smooth way of doing things in a DC-3! Locked tailwheel did not help...

PS for anyone, what command allows me to quote the post of another person? I see it done, but darned if I can figure it out...

[Them thar hills]

2112
I agree with you.
But one thing that seems to give recurring problems on tailwheel assemblies is the steering springs themselves. Some look like they came off an old bed. Also the linking chains are often left too sloppy, no wonder steering is hard work !
Soft springs are nbg, you push the pedal and the tailwheel follows in a half-hearted fashion, so then it has to be big dollops of rudder and even some brake to keep control, which is untidy. A new spring kit need only cost £20 tops !
The tailwheel is the hardest worked item on the aircraft and often the most neglected.:hmm:

[Pitts2112]

TTHills,

Concur. When I first got my Pitts, the steering chains were very loose and control on the ground was an iffy thing at best. I took a couple of links out to take out some of the slack (there's still some) and that made a lot of difference in controllability.

PDAR,

I seem to remember there used to be a "quote" botton on each post which would automically set up the quote in a new reply box, but that button disappeared some time ago (if it was ever even there - I could have dreamt it). It's messy but the only way I know is to type in the open and close quote tags and copy and paste the text I want between them. The tags are:

closing tag: [/quote]
opening tag: [quote]

(can't type the examples in proper order because they'll perform their function rather than show the tags).

If someone knows a better way, I'd like to learn! :)

[Tail-take-off]

barit1
I find it fascinating that after 50+ years of the aviation industry trying to convince us that tricycle gear is "conventional", we diehards still regard the taildragger as "conventional"!

The Wright Flyer looked like this:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/top10/wright-flyer.jpg

So perhaps anything with wheels is technically unconventional depending on where you look at it from:ok:

[Dan Winterland]

Quote: "Remember fifty years ago initial training was taildragger." The RAF used the Chippy as their elementary trainer up until 1993. the EFTS got a new batch of students every month who hadn't flown before and went solo usually within ten hours. They didn't know any different. So based on this, I'm sticking my head above the parapet by saying that converts who find taildraggers challenging have too many bad habits to un-learn! :ooh:

Just imagine you're new to flying and try to relax. Put away the notion that taildraggers are hard and just concentrate on using your feet and finding that three point attitude.

[SNS3Guppy]

I dunno about the notion that the more experienced one is, the les rudder movement there is. I've been spending a fair amount of time over the last few years in Dromaders and Air Tractors, and I've had many days when my knees hurt too much to get out of the airplane after a flight, or at the end of the day. No shortage of rudder work on takeoff, landing, or in the air.

A comparison between those two types, however, shows a considerable difference in the way they fly. The Dromader often takes full throw control movements in turbulence with rudder and ailerons while working; the air tractor takes frequent constant small movements and isn't tolerant at all of over controlling.

Even a simple Aeronca or Cub can keep you busy, especially if it's gusty or windy with obstacles near the runway such as trees or buildings. On a dead calm morning one might be able to let ones feet sleep, figuratively speaking, but generally they should be wide awake, and fairly active, such as they may be needed.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I dunno about the notion that the more experienced one is, the les rudder movement there is.

It's to do with over-controlling. Inexperienced pilots don't notice an incipient swing until it becomes obvious, then put in a load of rudder to correct it, but it's too much and a swing starts the other way, so a load of rudder... you get the picture. Looks like the aeroplane is being being propelled by the rudder, goldfish-style.

The experienced pilot moves the rudder to just the right position as he applies power, and little if any subsequent correction is needed (unless there's a fickle x-wind).

As with the other primary flying controls, over-controlling is eliminated by experience (hopefully!). It might take longer with the rudder for an experienced nosewheel pilot because some poor rudder technique has to be 'un-learned'.

SSD

[barit1]

While overcontrolling isn't exactly desirable, it's probably better than undercontrolling; once a swing reaches the point of no return, you'll wish you had been more aggressive.

But experience tells you how to split the difference.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Quote:


As with the other primary flying controls, over-controlling is eliminated by experience (hopefully!).

Quote:


I dunno about the notion that the more experienced one is, the les rudder movement there is. I've been spending a fair amount of time over the last few years in Dromaders and Air Tractors, and I've had many days when my knees hurt too much to get out of the airplane after a flight, or at the end of the day. No shortage of rudder work on takeoff, landing, or in the air


I believe the message to be absorbed here is one will tend to over control less as one gains experience.

I would like to comment on tired legs flying an airplane that is heavy on the controls used in the fire suppression business but it would not really pertain to this subject where private pilots are asking for advice on how to fly light aircraft in normal weather and turbulence conditions.

The answer to flying tail wheel airplanes is find a good teacher and you will very quickly become proficient and comfortable flying them....

.....Remember certified airplanes were designed so people of average ability can fly them.

[White Shadow]

Learning to fly in the R A F many many years ago, for a glide-approach landing (power approaches came later) my Tiger-moth instructor used to say through the earphone tubes -
"When you can see the blades of grass, stick back s l o w l y.
Now keep-it-flying-keep-it-flying-keep-it-flying"
Then, when the stick was right back in your crotch and you were down - "keep-straight-keep-straight-keep-straight-keep-straight".
Seemed to work most times.
If you bounced - "full throttle-full throttle-keep-straight-keep-straight".

Ah, happy days.
WS

[Them thar hills]

WS
But no-one had told you how difficult it all was supposed to be !
:)

[SNS3Guppy]

I would like to comment on tired legs flying an airplane that is heavy on the controls used in the fire suppression business but it would not really pertain to this subject where private pilots are asking for advice on how to fly light aircraft in normal weather and turbulence conditions.


Sure it does, chuck. Flying is flying. The airplane doesn't know who is at the controls.

I assume that was a bit of a cheap shot on your part, however misplaced. I described a couple of light tailwheel airplanes, neither of which are heavy on the controls, flown in a general aviation environment.

Flying a conventional gear airplane isn't particularly difficult, but it does demand attention. It seems demanding when coming from a tricycle gear airplane at first, but only because the tricycle gear airplane has been doing it's job; making a safe, comfortable platform to fly. The conventional gear airplane is also safe, but it requires the pilot to make it safe and keep it safe. The comparison is somewhat like an automatic transmission vs. a standard stick shift; one goes without any real effort on the part of the driver, whereas the stick shift requires proper use of the clutch, proper shifting, selecting the right gear...it requires driver input to make it work, or it won't go at all. Convntional gear flying, much like learning to drive a stick shift, quickly becomes a natural act without requiring thinking about it. It just doesn't seem that way at first.

[White Shadow]

TTH -
No, we didn't think at the time about what we were doing with the stick and rudder, we just did it.
But we'd had lectures and tests on Theory Of Flight, and simulated circuits blind-folded, in a grounded Tiger without wings, before they let us anywhere near a real live aircraft.
At night we used a gooseneck-flares landing-strip laid into wind across a bumpy grass field.
Great stuff.

[Bigglesthefrog]

An "experienced pilot" is not necessarily the best tailwheel pilot. Anyone who watched the unfortunate commercial Jet jockey trundling down the runway at Woburn a few years ago, only to take the lovely old Gypsy Moth for a swim in the lake off the end of the runway will realise that. It's all down to practice on type and a good instructor.
My tip is to seek out Pete Thorn and have a few hours dual with him.
I swear he could teach a Banana to three point a winged wheelbarrow!!
Although I suppose technically a wheelbarrow has tricycle gear.... Oh well :cool:

[betterfromabove]

WS.

Wonderful!! Sounds about right...simple, reassuring instructions are what I found best. And keep highish on final too....you can always slip it in if you need to.

Even today 2-way communication in a Tiger is a bit hit & miss at best. Had a big sortie scrubbed in a DA40 the other day because the instructor couldn't communicate with ATC....jeez in a Tiger, on navex's, there always seem at least one of the two pilots (you need two these days....) who can't hear what's going on beyond the cockpit!?!

What struck me on the Tiger is how much a role peripheral vision plays in the flare. Following the lead of the instructors, I now find myself peering over the side when she's about ready to touch....in fact, I notice they usually prepare themselves for that very thing by opening the bijou little door Mr DH provided.

Whatever works....god I miss taildragging...think I need to phone the Tiger Club....where's that mobile?!?

BFA

[steveital]

yea its crazy I started in aeronca and now am in ALC with 100 Hp (American Legend Cub) and its much easier in the ALC Cub....practice practice practice....determination, Im up to about 9 hours and am doing good wheel landings in the Aeronca....also STUDY, find any articles, books, etc

[lostpianoplayer]

I see this thread has legs! Just taking a moment to answer your question, Shortstripper, and comment on your point re 3-points...and add a further comment.

1. No, I don't think the Spezio Tuholer is underpowered at all. You can easily work it out - google it, and other aircraft you're familiar with, for hp and gross weight (or mid-wight) work out the power loading, (divide weight into hp for pounds per horsepower - the lower the number the more powerful the machine - and it'll give you a good sense. My **subjective** experience is that my Spezio climbs an awful lot faster than, say, a 172, and that's plenty of power, at least until you start getting a roving eye, and trawling TAP again :) Most Tuholers have 125 or 135 hp, although there are some with more....even a 125 hp one should be fine.

2. On short landings, though, I have to stand by my own experience. I was initially very sceptical too - how could you possibly land shorter in a wheel landing, when (by definition) you can land slower in a full stall landing? I argued long & hard w my instructor on this, but I'm convinced now. I think it partly comes down to braking - my braking effectiveness in the Harmon Rocket is vastly better when I have the tail up, (and thus all the weight on the mains) so while the initial touchdown speed is slightly higher, it can be reduced much faster too, in a wheel landing. NB, I don't mean a FAST wheel landing - I mean a tail low, slow, power on wheel landing, which is **almost** a 3-pointer, and as soon as you touch you push forward very slightly, and brake hard. Moderating the pitch appropriately if the braking starts to bring the tail up too much. Just my own experience...

3. Oh, and, I guess, to thrash an earlier point, I really don't think that stuff about dancing around like Fred Astaire on cocaine is quite accurate. Don't get me wrong - it was a funny tale - but I don't think it's **that** hard. Not after a bit of practice. I do agree there's more going on, especially initially, but I reckon once you've got the knack, and you're relaxed, it's not too tricky. As for **getting** the knack, well, yes, I guess it's a little tricker to learn to land a taildragger than a 152, but that's possibly mainly because, as one of the previous posters mentioned, that nosewheel aircraft allow sloppier technique, and we can get into bad habits. I know I did, initially, learning in a 172. Nosewheel aircraft have a tendency to "pull themselves straight" if you touch down slightly sideways, whereas taildraggers do the opposite. It's all about the position of the COG compared to the position of the main wheels. The cure, of course, is to not touch down sideways. And, um, keep it straight!

Finally - the comment about recognising an incipient ground loop is on the money....but it's just a more complicated way of saying "keep it straight". In other words, don't accept **any** deviation from straight, no matter how small, and don't over-control (which could lead to hell's own PIO, which is a good time to go round, if you can do so safely, and have another go) but if you recognise that she ain't straight no more, get her straight, and she's just another aeroplane. Just, um, a cooler one than a nose dragger :)

I know it probably sounds simplistic, but I really think that "don't think too much, control your airspeed on approach, and KEEP IT STRAIGHT at all times" would take care of most problems with learning to master taildraggers.

(added the next day - I am not seriously suggesting "not thinking" in an aircraft. What I meant to say was "don't 'over-think' " the theory, when actually FLYING the aeroplane. Analysis on the ground, on the other hand, is helpful, but all the ref material - eg The Compleat Taildragger - makes much better sense when you've done a few taildragger hours. And it seems that just about every theoretical underpinning of reasons taildraggers yaw on the ground (gyroscopic as tail comes up, P factor, different COG/main wheel relationship, etc) has the same, simple, cure. (Keep It Straight) - and I'll BET you a lot of high hour taildragger pilots could no longer explain all of the reasons that T/Ds yaw, but they keep em straight anyway. It all seems easier once you've flown T/Ds a bit. Dual is fine, of course - no need to hurry to solo a T/D, or for that matter, anything. And, nice example re supermarket trolley - I never thought of that)

On a different note, you know my all time favourite aspect of taildraggers - it's that YOU control when the AoA causes the wings to cease producing lift. Precisely. Which, I think, is another reason wheel landings can be shorter - you can put the machine down within a foot of your aim point, every time, rather than flaring past it, still flying, trying to drop it on in a 3-pt attitude. And in gusty conditions, for instance, you can have a fairly assertive negative AoA, which will 'pin' you to the ground, better than a nosewheel aircraft which can't lower the AoA any more, cos the nose wheel is in the way. Um. I'm getting complicated & OT now. Off for coffee....

[barit1]

This article (http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleTailwheelTraining.html) has appeared on a prior thread, but it's written by a master (Budd Davisson) and is worth a close look!

He makes the point about the CG relationship to the main gear (CG forward of the mains in a tri-gear, CG aft of the mains in a taildragger) and that is all-important to understanding ground handling.

You can demonstrate this to yourself next time you're at the grocery. Find a cart that rolls straight - no dragging wheels etc. Give it a shove down the aisle and let go - it should roll straight ahead.

Now turn it around and shove it backwards down the aisle. In less than a second it will do the prettiest ground loop! The difference is the position of the CG relative to the "main gear" (i.e. fixed wheels).