Ryanair on grass in Poland - Taxi incident

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sky News breaking story - airport not identified. Destination reported as EMA. Runway closed.

WWW

[akerosid]

Incident occurred in Lodz; 170 on board.

[33zz33]

pics & vid: http://www.tvn24.pl/-1,1547877,wiadomosc.html

[Lancelot37]

Braking News on Sky.

Polish airport has been closed after a Ryanair plane with 170 passengers on board went off the runway while taxiing before takeoff.
The plane, which was bound for Nottingham, England, got its wheel stuck in soft ground after leaving the tarmac when apparently trying to turn around at the end of the runway.
An airport spokesman said strong winds forced planes to use the full length of the runway.
Officials closed the airport while technicians prepared to pull the plane back onto the runway.
The passengers have been bussed 80 miles east to Warsaw for a flight to Nottingham.
Other Lodz flights are being diverted to Warsaw, and a bus service will be provided.

[TBSC]

Nose wheel on grass. 170 pax, no injuries. A/p closed, FR/O2 flts are diverting to WAW/BZG. Someone citing high winds (?), seems to be 9-11 kts all day.

[Time Traveller]

Reported as nose wheel sunk into the stopway

but would normally expect the stopway to support at least the nosewheel

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

SkyNews no palpably calming down stating no injuries and pax on a bus to Warsaw. Ryanair have issued a press statement.

WWW

[lgw-morph]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1314428,00.html

[Ivor Fynn]

Ryanair - cutting corners again!!:E:E:E

[Funnel Cloud]

That link above has some nice shots of the aircraft there in Lodz. Bearing in mind that the whole plane is on the stopway having already done a 90 degrees turn there, it looks like they confused the stopway for a turning pad. Time will tell.
Hope the guys involved are okay!

[Cyclone733]

http://m.onet.pl/_m/b9efd0ff307da8602dd69ce360f6891d,21,1.jpg

Looks like a sand trap from this shot, not sure I want to risk turning on that kind of surface

[Capt Ted Crilly]

having been into LODZ with ryr in a previous life you enter the runway and backtrack.......

but unfortunately it looks like the boys were trying to make full use of the available runway and just went a little too far......

how is that trying to cut corners ivor?????

looks like an embarrassing mistake not like someone trying to cut corners you muppet:mad::ugh::mad::ugh:

[readywhenreaching]

according to aircraft involved is EI-DYB, delivered March this year.

Source:
www.jacdec.de

[boneflyer]

IVOR i wish people like you would keep your opinions to yourself at least untill you knew what you were talking about.

[angelic111]

Off Bloomberg:

Ryanair Plane Runs Off Runway in Lodz, Poland; Airport Closes

By Tracy Alloway and Nathaniel Espino
April 29 (Bloomberg) -- A Ryanair Holdings Plc plane
carrying 170 passengers went off the runway at Poland's Lodz
airport while taxiing for takeoff.
The nose wheel of the Boeing Co. aircraft sank into the
ground off the beginning of the runway, Dublin-based Ryanair said
today in an e-mailed statement. Passengers on flight FR1624 from
Lodz to East Midlands airport in England left the plane normally
and were bused back into the terminal, the airline said. No one
was injured, according to the carrier.
``The plane went off the pavement while taxiing and the
wheels got stuck in the mud,'' said Milosz Wika, a spokesman for
Lodz airport. ``The airport has been closed and traffic has been
re-routed to Warsaw. We'll probably be closed for the rest of the
day, because we can't move the Ryanair plane. We're waiting for
engineers to move it.''

[Traffic is...]

In Ivor's defence, I would guess that he was messing about and saying 'cutting corners' as a play on words about possibly cutting the corner of the runway on the turnaround/ backtrack, rather than it being a comment about Ryanair and cost cutting. Only a guess though.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Ryanair - cutting corners again!!:E:E:EHeheh good one. Careful though, looks like you've upset the humour police. :rolleyes:

[Bomber Harris]

Oh come on ted....ivor was making a joke....and since no one was hurt, i thought it was even a bit funny.

however what you said was serious...thats more worrying..because you said "looks like an embarrassing mistake". Where did you get MISTAKE from. Looking at the video the aircraft was on the turning pad at the end of the runway. Thats where you expect the aircraft to be. Now if there is a notam to say not to use it because its a sand trap then somebody made a mistake allright...but let the facts come out before we use the word MISTAKE.

I haven't checked notams yet, well lets face it, someone a bit more keen will probably do and post it.

If that was sand i would expect standard airport markings to be in place, you know big X and edge markers at end of runway.

Looks like there may be more to meets the eye on this. Frome the video it does looks like an "overrun sandpit" (what are they officially called again?) but it also looks like a stopway...which of course you CAN taxi on.

So lets wait a little while before we start saying anyone made a mistake. This looks like a sucker hole I could have been drawn into myself, and I'm worried airport authorities are allowed to present us with this kind of stuff over and over again and the feds do not come down on them hard enough (remember the cock ups with the runway lighting when Singapore 747 hit ground equipment on take off)...

[hawky]

Hi All,

Here's the video: http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=nu3pjjHLAsk (http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=nu3pjjHLAsk)

[captjns]

Stopway means an area beyond the takeoff runway, no less wide than the runway and centered upon the extended centerline of the runway, able to support the airplane during an aborted takeoff, without causing structural damage to the airplane, and designated by the airport authorities for use in decelerating the airplane during an aborted takeoff.

Stopways are usually, not always, depicted on Jeppy 10-9 charts.

http://flight.sanyjo.cz/mapy/Poland/EPLL.pdf

[7AC]

I thought Ivor was having a joke, you're all just so sensitive.:p

[jayteeto]

Boneflyer, Ivor is making a joke, read it again and calm down!!

Of interest, the Mail is calling this a crash!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=562808&in_page_id=1770

[captjns]

Another example of irresponsible journalism at its worst.:*

[loloflyer]

Until I read Bomber Harris's Post 18, I always believed that 'big x' was a character in a pow escape film.

Now he's standing beside a runway in Poland!

Oops, it seems I forgot my medication again.

[protz]

Here's some media for you:

http://www.tvn24.pl/-1,1547877,wiadomosc.html

[Lurking123]

I would have thought that the TORA, ASDA and LDA of both runways being 2500m would give everyone a clue. From the Polish AIP

13. DECLARED DISTANCES
RWY TORA (M) TODA (M) ASDA (M) LDA (M)
07L1) 2500 2560 2500 2500
25R1) 2500 2560 2500 2500
Uwagi/Remarks 1)- Brak malowania na drodze startowej oznaczeń “lewy” (“L”), “prawy” (“R”)./No “left” (“L”) and “right” (“R”) letters are
painted on the RWY.

[Capt Ted Crilly]

perhaps honest "mistake" was the wrong word to use,but the fact that the aircraft was taxied past the piano keys and the SOLID white line at the end of the runway depicting the END of the runway was then perhaps a what???? also the contrast in colours should have been approached with caution. i refer to the link in post 3.

i dont have a thesaurus to hand but if you can call it something other than a mistake i will edit my post accordingly.

as for the wx it looks to be a pretty nice day in lodz so SA should not have been a problem.

what probably got them was ryr sops that call for a bit too much heads in while the a/c is moving under its own power,this has been documented on previous ryr incidents.

i still think this is an embarressing mistake,over to you.;)

[flugangst]

@crewcostundercontrol (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=228268)

I think you've just summed up the global economy + capitalism at work. Time = money :ok:

[hardcase]

well said, crewcostundercontrol
:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[hetfield]

@crewcost

BRAVO!

True for many others as well:\

[kick the tires]

This incident is ridiculus, no matter what the excuse, reson, mitigation, it was TOTALLY avoidable.

Crewcost beat me to it with a totally accurate overview of this airline.

[roljoe]

Fully correct,...

and a few more incidents like this one will..hoppefully shake their undersized brain..:E..

[the grim repa]

Not being flippant,but first fatally on the way.Maybe then this idiotic behaviour will stop.

[flap15]

This suggests a lack of experience. The Captain has not spent enough time in the right hand seat prior to taking on the resposibility. The companies insurance renewals will probably reflect this.

[captplaystation]

flap15, you may already know who the unfortunate Capt was ( by word of mouth or via our wonderful computer at work) as I am OFF I don't. If however you are just surmising or attempting to offer an explanation I would draw your attention to the fact that our last two "offs" were performed by respectively a LTC and a TRI so experience/lack of , wasn't really such a big factor.
There but for the grace of god go most of us, it is best to bear this in mind if you truly wish to avoid it, IMHO of course.

[Field In Sight]

That is a great video at http://www.tvn24.pl/-1,1547877,wiadomosc.html

Hopefully the crew were not still in the Flight Deck. I wouldn't want to see a helicopter filming me after a ****up.

I thought it looked like the EMAS system they sank into, which I personally think should be on all runways.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_materials_arrestor_system

It doesn't look long enough though, and the main gear is still on the surface.

I'm prepared to give Ryanair a little benefit of doubt as they do a hell a lot of sectors and therefore statistically speaking will be involved in more "incidents" than most airlines.

Good luck to the crew,
Ryanair appear on the surface at least to have a blame safety culture. Hopefully not!!!

FIS.

[fudpucker]

As a guy who's just retired after 30-odd years in the industry, Allow, my advice to you is get used to it. Always been the same.;)

[The Real Slim Shady]

First of all, back off until the facts are known. Character assassination doesn't hold water.

If you haven't been to Lodz you don't know what the problems are nor do you know what the place looks like.

i worked in RYR for over 6 years and loved every minute of it.met some top lads flew some good kit and flew into some tricky airports.

Ted, my apologies, you obviously have been to Lodz.

[RFusmoke]

Firstly that is not stopway as previously discussed it s EMAS

Secondly ..2500 m is long nuff to take off in 738 for the dist/all wts/wx

Thirdly could the guys/girls/guy/girl not see it was nt tarmac?

the most difficult part of this job is on the ground ......maybe RYR should realise this (and that includes the treatment by management)

[Ivor Fynn]

Boneflyer - thanks for the pm!!!

Some people do need to develop their sense of humour!!!:E:E:E

Ivor

[Capt Ted Crilly]

hey limp shoddy,

what is your take on it then?????

indulge us and speculate a little as to what you think might have happened???

[sphinx888]

Photos:

http://www.lublinek-emig.com/samoloty/08-04-29/

[dumdumbrain]

To the person who wrote this

1. Rush rush rush rush culture all the time.
2. Intimidation by management
3. Very low hours guys flying together ie 3001/301
4. Poor level of English throughout many crews
5. Low morale
6. Pay cut for FO's
7. Get the job done on time or your in trouble
8. Promotion to captain way to fast...2800 hrs sign here and here are your stripes.
9. Don't speak out or you will be sacked
10. MOL


*unless you actually know the full facts i would shut up! You are talking about two peoples careers. I have actually flown with the Capt on this flight and i can tell you he has been flying for many, many years and came from a Major trans atlantic airline. And if you really was a professional you wouldnt make such silly comments!

Loyal cabin crew from EMA

[Steve73]

Flaps15 - what's your level of experience then ?
I know the guy in the LHS on this flight and i'll bet you he's got more time in the Ockham hold than you've got total.
But don't let that put you off typing your two lines of ill informed drivel.
Mind you, you can probably only type with one hand as the other one is busy elsewhere - tosser.

[Tofu Racing]

dumdumbrain:



*unless you actually know the full facts i would shut up! You are talking about two peoples careers. ...

What are full facts then? fact number 1 is that the a/c is off the rwy, during taxi for T/O. In my company, it would be serious Capt fault. (Capt, because Capt is always responsible).

Also telling one to shut up is very rude, if you didn't know that.

[Abusing_the_sky]

...... and you come out with all these speculations because...??!!???
First of all none of you lot was there at the time the incident happened. Most of you have no idea what Lodz APT is like or ever been anywhere near it for that matter. Shouldn't we wait for an IAA investigation before we slag off the pilots??
Mind you some of you have 3 seconds flying experience but you think you're all that and you have the right to comment on an incident like you are experts. How about back the :mad: off, wait for more results, then show off your so called "knowledge" regarding flying. I am cabin crew but for sure i know more about flying a damn 737-800 than some of you on this thread.
Come on, bring it on little boys:ok:

[dumdumbrain]

Oh so you have your own company,, well done :ok:

And rude? well you should try meeting me when im off loading a late pax.

For the full facts you will have to wait for the IAA.

By the way you one them people who sit at the end of the runway and think you can run an airline better? Hhhmmmmmm

[eastern wiseguy]

What an ill mannered thread.

For the full facts you will have to wait for the IAA.


Surely the Polish authorities carry out the investigation here?. Did ATC not warn them? They do SEEM to have strayed quite a distance off the tarmac.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Ted Crilly

My take?????

Have you been to Lodz?

Do you carry a Polish AIP on your aircraft to demonstrate an immaculate knowledge of every runway in Poland? Or like the rest of we mere mortals rely on the Jepp?

Now one of my, many, faults is that I don't suffer fools gladly; Ted Crilly, stop being foolish.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Ted

My apologies.

You worked for FR so obviously have huge experience of Lodz.

Perhaps you would explain to the rest of the community the difficulties associated with operating there.

Thanx

[TheRedVonBaron]

Dear EMA cabin crew.

You are doing no favours to your colleagues by coming on to a proffessional pilots rumour network and slagging off your colleagues fellow proffessionals. Im sure ur embarrassing your friends, and your certainly letting yourself down as well as the company you work for.

Best of luck to those involved in the incident. Sh!t happens.

[Glamgirl]

A couple of the posts on here from people who are obviously ryr staff have given me even more reasons to not fly with them (as if I needed another reason...).

The tone and content of their posts are awful! God only knows how they treat the pax, if they can write with such rudeness.

I know very little about the -800 and I've never been to the airport in question. I do, however, know about certain policies in certain companies, but it's been commented on so many times so I won't repeat.

Now, can we play nicely please and at least stop the abusive language?

Gg

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

As the originator of this thread I was fearful that it would turn into a mindless Ryanair bashing issue. I hoped that my thread title and initial post would perhaps minimize the amount of RYANAIR OFF RUNWAY - INJURIES NOT YET KNOWN! replies and speculation.

This was a simple taxiing incident with minimal damage and drama made by a normal crew on a normal day. It could happen to anyone.

Necks in people.

WWW :ugh:

[dumdumbrain]

Oh come off it, how many of the users on here are actually pilots? And be honest

[Abusing_the_sky]

We are supporting our dear crew involved in the incident. I just personally think that some of these posts are either discriminating (the "irish" comment) or shouldn't be posted at all. Nor have i ever been named a "monkey" because i work for FR.
As you said, sh!t happens, even to the best of us....

[mason]

There is some people here who are so bitter and twisted i can hardly believe it ,the minute there is an incident with Ryanair they jump the gun
rush rush culture thats the problem ,
well being bitter wont do you any good get on with your lives when the facts come out then debate who's at fault.
And i would like to say well done to FR cabin crew for showing there support shows more of a united company than people would like to make out .

[TheRedVonBaron]

I respect what you are trying to do in defending a colleague and friend. However, there is a way to do it, and I personally dont think the way you are doing it, is helping anyone. Not you, not ryr and particularily not your friends and colleagues.

I wouldnt mind the "irish" joke. Any irish person I know would see it for what it is, pure banter.

The Baron, irish, former ryr pilot

[stev]

Well im sorry for the lads in question im sure their feeling great at the moment about their careers in this buisness. Its a sad fact of life when the **** hits the fan we're the scape goats, always guilty till proven innocent no matter what airline your with thats right all those idiot Nigels out their, your no exception and no airline is infallable. I happen to know that as a Capt in RYR i dont tolerate
1 rush
2 min fuel
3 rushed approaches
4 lack of training
5 etc etc
and all the other sh**te that people wright on these pages.

Fact: FR has been recognised by the major players and by god could it be the infallable CAA as one of the best training organisations working in the UK. If you dont believe scroll through some Flight Int arcives. Any body on this forum who knows A O'S will know what prof training org they run.
I know FR could be better and theirs merits to the Unuion argument but battering the pilots for some of the draw backs of the org really smells a bit if you ask me.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Glamgirl

Whatever you may think about FR we are people: we do actually care about each other and our passengers.

Bashing FR is easy: the truth of the matter is that bashing BA is left to the media, not PPrune. It's like bashing Silverjet; do a good job and get the living daylights slagged out of you. screw up, like T5, and SHHHHHHHH!!! The sound of silence!

[The Real Slim Shady]

Dear Mr / Ms Moderator

I note that you have removed the post from Countdown calling me, and my colleagues, "Ryanair Monkeys".

Nevertheless, it is a tad harsh: may we expect an apology from the individual?

TRSS

[Glamgirl]

Shady,

I'm so used to people all over the world slagging off the airline I work for, that it goes in one ear and out the other. The point of my post was not to slag off ryr but to point out the rude tone and content that some of the posters used.

I can't bear bad customer service, whether it's in a shop, on a train, plane or wherever. When crew from an airline post as these people have, that indicates to me that :

1. They're possibly not in the right job
2. Their customer service skills must be vastly improved

I of course know that they are humans, that's why I haven't actually posted exactly what I wanted to say, as that would be thought of as antagonising and provoking them.

Gg

[rubik101]

Three or four of these posts would have been deleted if the company concerned was BA. I wonder why the Mods are happy to let RYR get trashed on a regular basis but any criticism of BA is 'disappeared'?
I expect I will get banned for writing this innocuous post!

[The Real Slim Shady]

It is somewhat disappointing that people like Countdown and Beagle are allowed to get away with quite outrageous statements without so much as a hint of apology, other than having their posts deleted.

Regrettably, we saw what they had to say and if it irritates the Mods enough to delete the offending post, it certainly has some effect on mere mortals who are the intended targets.

Bar room chat etc I can take, but I really do find it offensive to be called a monkey. Perhaps a Mod could explain why the post by Countdown was removed and how I, and my colleagues at FR, can expect an apology?

[Duck Rogers]

As I'm in good mood......................

The last time the mods were criticised for allowing condemnation of a company was ooooooooh yesterday, in relation to several BA threads. Criticism of BA, RYR or indeed any company is NOT removed for the sake of it but only where it is deemed irrelevant to the subject or spurious (take note those of you who have registered multiple usernames and posted in this thread under more than one name).

Yes, mods are deleting posts from this and other threads. This is a deliberate effort to reinforce the 'Professional' aspect of PPRuNe and a drive to keep threads on track and reduce background noise.

For apologies those who feel sleighted may either PM the perceived offender and/or make use of the 'report post' function.








Duck

[BEagle]

Yet again you have used somewhat draconian powers to stifle comment, Rogers.

I don't care whose airline was involved, but I seriously question anyone who asserts that this was a 'hey, could happen to anyone' event.

That is not an acceptable attitude towards airline safety.

[The Real Slim Shady]

And you would know?

Care to share with us your " airline" background 35 Sqn man?

Oops.

Before some Mod gets on his / her high horse 35 was a Bomber Sqn, not an airline, and 101 was a Tanker Sqn, not an airline.

This man's airline experience is purely as a passenger.

[BEagle]

OK then 'flight' safety. Happier now?

I am critical of those who brush off taxiing 'incidents' in the way WWW did on this thread. The specific airline is of absolutely no consequence, but if there is a growing "Hey, could have happened to anyone" culture in air transport operations these days about such avoidable events, then I'm going by train!

[Bomber Harris]

Capt ted,
what a nice man you are. I critisized you and you came back with a very proffesional answer . have you read the diatraibe of the last few pages? our conversation really has been lost!! I've been off flying a 737 so happily i didn't get involved with the diatribe.

Anyway, lets put this into perspective. A 737 turned around on an area not capable of supporting said machine. No one was hurt, the aircraft certainly was not damaged (i've had a cadet hit the nose at 140kts so a bit of sand at 5kts did nothing for sure) so i am stuggling to find the issue here. Looks great on Youtube et al, but thats it...a non event!!

Now ted, if you said the pilots were great i would probably argue they weren't. But you said they made a mistake and i am taking up the job of devils advocate, im always up for a good argument!!

We have been told by a poster (probably a laywer...hehe) that the toda versus rwy lenght gave us a clue there was no turning pad. Well, as a 73 captain i can tell you that i would not be including that kinda deatail in my brief unless i wanted to bore the fo to slahshing his wrists. I looked at another posters link to the airports plates. There is no "light grey" area depicted after the runway. which of course we all know indicates areas you cannot taxi on....dont we folks? (hehe lost a few there). So one piece of mathematical info says there is no turning pad and another says there is no area that you cannot taxi in. Now, one laywer will say he made a mistake and another will say he didn't, but come on, a bit of reality, when you back track you look out the window to taxi, not at some mathemathical model. If there are no visual clues then you can hardly call it a mistake by the pilot...may be a mistake by the airport operator.

Half of the airports i fly to have turning pads and the other half don't. I expect an area to be marked off if i can't taxi on it. The reality is....if this guy/gal taxied onto it then i could probably have done the same thing. If all you lawyer pilots think you wouldn't make this "mistake" then i have have one simple piece of advice........wait for 40 years of flying then come back and tell me the same thing again.

To answer your question ted....ERROR is the word in CRM world. And error does not imply guilt. But in my twisted mind..."mistake" does. Error is something which happens to us all (every 3 minutes according to airbus) and is something we just have to deal with. generally it is a result of a chain of events. (am i clutching at straws here.......ok mistake was probably ok)

This was a non event guys. Best wishes to the the guys and gals on board. even ryanair couldn't have a problem with this "error"

[helen-damnation]

Having just seen the video:

Did anyone say FOD/ingestion :O

Out of interest, what checks would the engineers do before she flies again?

[Lurking123]

Bomber, sorry not a lawyer. Do you really not check the TORA/TODA before commencing a public transport flight?:O

[Capt Ted Crilly]

bomber,

ok i will agree with you then but as english is not my first language error and bad judgement probably dont sound as harsh as mistake.

i liked your bit about the airbus,having let the 737 last year am now trying to understand what the hell the electric death jet is doing,what a shame it is not voice activated it would be so much easier.i have circa 700 hours multiplied by 3.......oops that is 2100 mistakes in the last year alone :uhoh:

what annoys me regarding this EPISODE is that it should not have happened (touch wood it never happens to me),if the capt is who i think it is and i hope its not, has ooddlleess of experience!!!!! i have flown for the ryans for 7 good fun filled years ex stn and dub the two biggest bases incident free in that time (again luck of the IRISH and not skill). we operated into most of the airports in the fr network,what i am getting at is that ema has an infinitely smaller number of aircraft therefore an infinitely smaller number of airports that it operates into. how many times have this crew been into lodz if fr only operates a number of routes from ema by ema crew??????

to the guys and gals from fr,people will bash fr because it is fr, best thing to do is let it flow over you,these people have not worked there before and are in no position to comment on life on the inside,remember that!!!!!

dobre rano moj kamarad :D čau pro ted' :zzz: spinkat

couldnt sleep was have moist dreams of flying the 737 again :O

slim you need to put down the computer and go get laid,it should round those edgy surfaces aiiiiiit!!!!

[Dysag]

I presume that after this there'll be no more threads whingeing about pilots' Ts & Cs going downhill.

By slagging each other off in public you're reinforcing the view that it's not a respected profession.

Anyone want to re-write this public thread changing the characters from pilots to surgeons? Unthinkable.

[Ptkay]

Dysag:

...this is a typical reaction. :(

Shooo, shooo, sweep it under the carpet, look away...

And what about the "Just Culture" ???

What about the airlines fulfilling all the safety rules,
going down due to the unfair competition from other companies,
whose pilots "land at any conditions" ???

[42psi]

On a slightly different tack ......

What does this say about the effectiveness of arrestor beds?

It appears that the only signifcant retardation came after the nosewheel was turned as it's only then it dug into the surface.

The mains still appear to be on the surface and no tracks visible prior to the nose wheel sinking.

How useful would this arrestor bed have been for an aircraft in a straight line (allbeit probably braking)??

[fireflybob]

Effectiveness of Arrestor Beds (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2837909&id=691910124&ref=nf#pid=2837914)

[00seven]

Why am I not surprised that this accident has happened?? I worked at FR for a while and one would often see crews in Dublin lining up on RWY 28 and in the process, virtually run over the RWY end lights and almost taxi onto the grass just so they dont waste a few meters. Seriously, its just a 737-800 (just a bike really), so wake up guys, its not that CRITICAL and line up allowance is taken into account with perf calcs anyhow.

I remeber my idiot Training Captain who had 7000 hrs less than me getting stuck into me for not using this line up method at DUB. Its pretty simple really, don't hit any red cones and never go beyond the white lines, no need to because not 10 minutes earlier, everyone on the flight deck has agreed that the performance figures are acceptable for the available runway length. Trying to be smart can make one look very dumb ha!!

[despegue]

Ptkay,

On what proof do you claim that FR is busting minima/ weather limitations?!

I think that people forget that FR is now BY FAR the biggest European International airline, operating into some of Europe's more challenging airports (that can handle B737.800).
I am not flying for Ryanair, but get really annoyed by all these idiots whose only objective is ryanairbashing and not trying to find out cause and consequence, like professionals with Safety in mind would.

[Airbus_a321]

according to the picture @33zz33 for me it does not loook like a "turn" problem, because the groove of the NW looks very straight. :=
Probabely it was an overrrun for whatsoever reason and not just an "taxi incident" during line-up :confused:
Doesn't make me wonder seeing the "FR-way" to "explain" all their incidents happend in the past

[kick the tires]

Why on earth did they go past that VERY solid white line depicting the end of the runway??

2500M of runway when they would need, 1500 tops? Why try and claw an extra couple of metres?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Airbus a321.....get back in your box and close the lid.

The aircraft was turning to line up for departure; the surface bore the weight until the nosewheel turned: check the mainwheels which didn't sink in to the surface.

[kick the tires]

Slim,

but why go over the solid white line??

[00seven]

Kick the tyres,

Your question is an excellent one....however it is a question that has no valid answer to justify the action.

[BEagle]

Saitek, will you please note that I have already said that the identity of the specific airline whose aircraft was involved in this incident is immaterial.

Questions:

Why was it necessary to attempt to use every inch of TORA?
How well delineated is the stopway marking on this RW?And, in case you missed it, those are questions wholly unspecific to your airline.

[hawkwing]

Saitek,

At last an intelligent and civilised post.

I can only echo your sentiments regarding the captain involved,
Not only is he a gentleman of the highest order, he has forgotten more about aviation before he has his breakfast than most of us will ever know.

This is a storm in a tea cup, nobody hurt or injured.
The aircraft is already back in Stansted, no damage.

As a RYR instructor also, the standard of training is second to none, which is bore out when pilots from other airlines join, all bar none that i have had on conversion courses have been amazed and delighted with the standard of training, and is only getting better every year.

To call "Ryr pilots Monkeys", as some idiot did in an earlier post, which has thankfully been removed, just shows the standard of people slinging mud at RYR.

Ryr have and can annoy employees and customers alike, if you do not like the company, fine.
But to insult fellow aviators is uncalled for and out of order,

[00seven]

Hawkwing,

You suggest this particular Captain has enormous amounts of experience. There are many Pilots that have similar or more experience levels. If anything, that makes his defence more difficult.

If we are honest with each other, some Pilots who fly for FR are there because most would be unsuitable for the major flag carriers. Additionally, it could be argued that obtaining a job and passing interview with FR including a Captain upgrade is a much easier path to the left hand seat, than say CX, SIA, BA for example.

It may be the biggest airline in Europe, but its not a REAL airline from a pilots perspective, hence the reason why most FR pilots can't wait to leave. Flying for that goose MOL is a crap job and always will be! Sorry to say.

[North Stand Tier3]

Bet that sandtrap did both CFMs the world of good. Having worked with Mr Boeing for several years, I'd have thought NDT inspections/retractions on the NLG would be required before routing back to Blighty -even if it were a gear down ferry flight. Seem to recall AMM calls for all wheels/brakes off for cleaning/replacement if any debris found in bearings/brake components for an off-runway excursion.. Just seems an awfully quick a/c recovery from Eastern Europe to UK. Anyone shed any light?

[hawkwing]

OOseven,

Not all pilots at RYR are unhappy,
Yes there are alot of things in RYR that could be better,
That argument is for another thread,
But to be calling all RYR pilots monkeys, and to be insulting RYR pilots about their abilities, is way out of order.
Thanfully those posts have been removed last night.

Also, what makes you think this Captain has not come here from a flag carrier.

[Fargoo]

Bet that sandtrap did both CFMs the world of good. Having worked with Mr Boeing for several years, I'd have thought NDT inspections/retractions on the NLG would be required before routing back to Blighty -even if it were a gear down ferry flight. Seem to recall AMM calls for all wheels/brakes off for cleaning/replacement if any debris found in bearings/brake components for an off-runway excursion.. Just seems an awfully quick a/c recovery from Eastern Europe to UK. Anyone shed any light?

It doesn't take long to do everything that you described above if in fact all of that was necessary.
Whatever peoples opinions of Ryanair they seem to at least take a sensible and thorough approach to their maintenance. :ok:

[Aldente]

Saitek

As a pilot and "instructor" with RYR, you are obviously proof of the "fast track" route to the LHS and a training position, that would not be possible in a lot of other airlines, especially since your profile shows "Currently CPL holder completing ATPL integrated course at Oxford Aviation"

;)

[Day_Dreamer]

Those of you who are continual RYR bashers and posters should consider the phrase "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones" as incidents like this can well happen to your flight.
If the Captain of that flight is the person whom I think he is, he has always been one of the most professional that I have had the privilege to know, and as it has already been said probably more hours in the hold than some pilots posting on here have in total.
As a professional pilot with over 35 years in civil aviation, I will not sit on the sidelines and hear RYR slagged off at every chance the low lives among you choose.
I have personal knowledge of the standards achieved during training at RYR, their SOP's are well written and cover every eventuality, especially as they have a diversity of nationalities, English language skills, and pilot experience within the organisation.
None of the above are known to be a factor in this incident.

I would suggest that continued RYR bashers are those who know little about RYR or have failed to reach the required standard at interview or training.
If they are just passengers then, you have freedom of speech but no right to be critical of well trained professional pilots.
If you are fellow pilots then where did selection and CRM training go wrong, as your general attitude stinks, and I could call into question your parentage and professional ability.

The politics and practices of RYR management is not the remit of this part of the forum, and as a fellow poster has said this is not the thread to discuss them.

As to call RYR not a real airline, the poster could not be more wrong they are as real as any legacy carrier, and will be operating after many of the low costs and some legacy carriers in Europe cease to exist.

Lets give the Crew of this flight time to reflect, and hopefully soon to get back in the saddle.
It is a minor Taxiing incident, yet costly in terms of prestige and financial penalty with an aircraft out of service.

It's time we let those whose pay grade is above ours and who have been trained to investigate such things make their investigation without pre-conceived ideas.

And I end on a final comment to the "Bashers" !!
"It can as easily have happened to YOU".

[d71146]

A very balanced post.
As you have said the Commander is one of the highest calibre pilots in the air today with thousands of hours in command.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

I haven't seen this picture posted before in the thread (sorry if it has been) :

http://lotnictwo.net/foto.php?id=138090

It was daylight in good weather. What were they thinking ? Could they have thought the overrun area was pavement due to some light effect....?

[Ptkay]

On what proof do you claim that FR is busting minima/ weather limitations?!


I have no proof, I just quoted the voices in discussion at a safety conference.
You can analyse the landings of different airlines on any given day with marginal weather at EPWA,
and yo will see, who landed, and who diverted or stayed in holding.


I am not flying for Ryanair, but get really annoyed by all these idiots whose only objective is ryanairbashing and not trying to find out cause and consequence, like professionals with Safety in mind would.

You don't know me, so it is not clear to me, why do you call an idiot somebody asking just questions.

BTW: why nobody of you Proud Professional Pilots want to comment on my questions and remarks on the "Just Culture" concept to promote safety ???

[flap15]

Saitek.

Oxford in 2003 to "instructer" in 2008 clearly shows the depth of experience within the training depatment.

Oh dear.

[steakandcheese]

Flap 15

At least he can spell the word "instructor" now that shows the level of your intelligence.
Oh dear!

[graviton]

It is probably not the ability to spell ‘instructor’, or for that matter, ‘department’ that demonstrates the level of intelligence, rather his generalisation from the specific! An all too common occurrence on PPRuNe.

[Capt Ted Crilly]

yes it is an unfortunate embarrassing episode what happened to the two guys yesterday and with everyone on here passing judgement on their actions myself included i am starting to fell a bit sorry for them because if it happened to me all i would want to do is bury my head in the sand :}:}:}:}:}

i cant believe that no one taught of it......i will get my jacket and await the backlash.

who says i dont have a sense of humour?

if you cant laugh at yourself,then you cant laugh at anyone else

[windytoo]

Shall we see how Ryanair treat the Captain and F/O after this minor incident? Maybe the way they "discipline" this crew will affect the opinion that most professional pilots have of the company and their "blame" culture. Sensible reaction to this mishap may change the attitude of a lot of people for the better, we can all make mistakes, an over the top reaction will only reinforce those deep held opinions many of us have.

[fade to grey]

Always makes me laugh,
the way some of the RYR boys rush to protect the company -me thinks they protest too much.

As for the pilot involved it doesn't matter how many hours/years etc they have been flying its all irrelevant once something happens - remember tenerife ?That was KLM's top man,even featuring in their brochures so his 30 year career or whatever was wiped out in a heart beat.

In this case the chap made a mistake - we all make them.No big deal, no problem end of story.

[empati]

Again, Kick The Tire, got this thread on track!:ok:

Why cross the solid white line?-- Bad paint?

Why leave paved surface?-- Light? Texture of Stopway?

Waiting for the report!

Empati

[safetypee]

What might be learned from this or similar situations where crews suffer error – something that did not turn out as expected. How might we avoid an incident with more serious consequence than appears to be the case in this one?
For those who don’t suffer these problems, or haven’t as yet, what are the safeguards, checks, tips, or safety defences being used?

Is there any local knowledge about this runway, downhill slope, strength of pavement, or markings? Anything published?

Are there any hazards in unusual lighting conditions which could lead to a misidentification of position? Are the paint markings particularly slippery in wet conditions?

The issues above relate to the situation, but in addition, operating crew are exposed to the variability in human performance and range of behaviours. Also, there could be many organisational factors which with strong influence on behaviour.
If any of the above applies, then who knew, and who should have communicated the hazard to others?

For those who have some answers, then why not share this knowledge, be it specific to the runway, aircraft, or operation; what factors might we use to help avoid a similar situation?

[Abusing_the_sky]

You do realise that most of the APT's require all a/c's to go all the way to the end of the runway, and turn there. Most of them have what they call a "turning bay". Now, the turning bay in question was brand new and was actually built to stop a/c's veering off the runway. But in this case, this bit of sand didn't had any signs saying otherwise, neither the ATC warned the F/D.
However, as someone said, it could've happen to anyone. This aircrew assumed it was a brand new turning bay as it looked like brand new concrete. So, have your say, but note the true facts before you show off as smart a$$es....

Safe flying:ok:

[CEJM]

Now, the turning bay in question was brand new and was actually built to stop a/c's veering off the runway.

You are contradicting yourself with this post. First you say it is a turning bay (actually it's called a 'turning circle' to be pedantic) and then you say that it was build to stop a/c veering off the runway, so it's not a turning bay (circle):hmm:.

Your last post is more like teaching grandma how to suck eggs.

Apart from that, I have no other comment and wait for the report to be published.

[PBD 1]

Been this airport lots of times....you have to be carefull not to take the "spotters" heads off on an approach to 25 as they all clamber to the chicken wire fence ADJACENT to the threshold. Same thing pulling off stand...must avoid the temptation to blow the "terminal" doors shut at the gate then avoid folks all waving bye bye to their loved ones, family and friends clambering to another fence! Remarkably the sun dried crusty surface off the sandpit at 07 end looks amazingly like concrete!! This illusion is backed up by an ashphalt strip running down one side of it giving the impression of a supporting surface! Probably would have done the same thing myself but saw a crow tugging at a worm or something! For the love of god why cant we have a idiot proof sign staked in the grass that says dont taxi on this bit please! Chart dipiction needs greater clarity of consequence not just two or three dots (under a tea stain) at the end of a thick black line on the 10 pages or a notam burried in eighty pages of notams! JAR and ICAO compliance...bring it on!! I do honestly hope ALL are ok and not too shook up.

[empati]

Thank you, PBD 1! Very informative! Do you remember if the runway end solid line was clearly visible?

Starting to sound like an incident waiting to happend!!

[fangs777]

Look at the video, and pix page one of thread :)

[wheelie my boeing]

Saitek:

To say that you have only been a pilot for what, 5 years, and now are an instructor:ugh:... well, it speaks volumes about the airline. The fact that you are now an instructor is, quite frankly, worrying. Doesn't happen in the vast majority of airlines like that. And no i'm not just bashing FR for the sake of it.

I know guys who have become Captains at Ryanair after just 3/4 years. That is NOT acceptable. Even they themselves think it isn't quite right. Of course they won't turn down the offer, but they readily accept that their lack of experience is no reason to be promoting them to Captain. The company should be more responsible.

You can cut corners time after time. Eventually it WILL take it's toll. When it does I won't be there as I won't fly with them. Ever.

[arubapilot]

Guys let us not forget we are all human and make errors. There is nothing wrong with using all available runway...Be it in a C172 or a B744. As stated before by pilots flying that field it obviously gives an illusion of CEMENT tarmac. I've flown into airports in venezuela which have runways of that colour accomodating B767's. Ok maybe itsnt properlly signed or marked and being their arent any runway end lights visible would give this particular cpatain no reason not to beleive he can use it as a "Displaced" threshhold.

Good luck to the crew!

[jiffajaffa]

as I won't fly with them. Ever.

good for you...

they should set up a seperate thread for people who want to moan about ryanair... I believe this thread is based on an incident in lodz and not your personal opinions on the airline.

[NIMBLE]

The 00SEVEN S and others must realise that Ryanair from a training ,checking and procedural stand point set and achieve very high standards.
To make the point that Ryanair crew s are not as professional or do not meet the standards of the"legacy" carriers goes to show the complete lack of knowledge on this forum.
Any ex BA,VIRGIN or similar ailine operator s who work or have worked for Ryanair will tell you that the standards are very high.
Mistake s can be made and it can happen to any of us.
Great that it give's the anorak s something to talk about!

[ManaAdaSystem]

What does a top shelf captain do in a company like FR? The pinnacle of his career, or did he fall down from somewhere? Or is he past 60?

Just asking, as I have never met any highly experienced pilots with aspirations of joining FR. Not without a reason.

[Aldente]

Meanwhile, back on track .....

Looking at the photos, had the aircraft been attempting to use the "full" runway length on 07 for departure, surely it would have taxied further in to the unpaved area, before executing it's 180 deg turn ? The aircraft has turned around only a short distance past the end of the paved surface , so it looks as if the crew taxied onto the non paved area and after perhaps realising they shouldn't have done, atttempted to turn around as soon as possible .....

Also a 2500 m R/W is more than adequate for an -800 with 170 pax and a non tankering flight to EMA, (especially with nearly 10kts of H/W as the met reports at the time were giving), so they would not have needed the extra 60 metres or so the overrun area gave them.

[Farrell]

Also a 2500 m R/W is more than adequate for an -800 with 170 pax and a non tankering flight to EMA, (especially with nearly 10kts of H/W as the met reports at the time were giving), so they would not have needed the extra 60 metres or so the overrun area gave them.

Not telling you how to suck eggs but from a good airmanship perspective, it is advisable to have as much runway as possible in case of an RTO.
60 metres can make a big difference and explaining away why you chose not to utilise it after an overrun would be interesting to hear.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Useless things in aviation:

1. Runway behind you !

[whatthehellwasthat]

2. Sand in your engines

[Looker]

Assuming the performance manual allows a departure from the rwy threshold / intersection then an overrun is more likely to be the result of an incorrect RTO technique.

Thus defending your choice of departure position is straight forward - it was within performance limits. Defending your RTO technique may be a little more difficult.

However, I acknowledge that whenever full length is available and doesn't compromise efficiency I will take it.

Running for cover!

[A4]

I totally agree regarding runway behind you..... but why do some seem to take it to the extreme? I believe the RYR at EMA a few weeks ago turned RIGHT whilst lining up on 27 to get those extra couple of metres and subsequently planted the right gear in the grass? I have seen the same at STN (RYR) when lining up on 23 from "S" which is a 45° lead on. Some have come SO close to dropping the right mains off the hard stuff. Why? Is this something that is emphasised in RYR training? (That's a question, not a criticism) It's a 3000m runway for heavens sake, the chances of going off the end are remote (unless you make a complete ball$ of it!) and 5 metres is going to make hardly any difference as you will almost be stopped anyway - the mains would still be on the runway/stopway.

I've never been to LDZ but I have been to similar places that require a backtrack and 180°. I don't know why they crossed the solid white. Confused that the sand looked like concrete? It does seem strange that the mains have hardly sunk in at all.

I'm sure the crew are feeling pretty gutted about the whole thing...... I hope their "masters" respond in a suitably human way.

A4

[00seven]

Farrel said:

"Not telling you how to suck eggs but from a good airmanship perspective, it is advisable to have as much runway as possible in case of an RTO.
60 metres can make a big difference and explaining away why you chose not to utilise it after an overrun would be interesting to hear."

Hey Farrel,
In case you fly for FR, next time you depart from RWY 28 at Dublin, why dont you just start the roll from across the road over at ALSAA! That way you will have plenty of runway ahead of you!

Like I said in my previous post, its just a 737-800 and its not that critical. All this B/S about a few wasted meters being critical to RTO perfermance is nonsense and if you cant see that its nonsense, god help us all.

They went PAST THE END OF THE RWY. They crossed the white lines. This is something that cannot be defended so all this crap about good airmanship is garabage. They f**ked up...simple as that. And its something those idiot training captains must be pushing at FR because you see it all the time. I wonder how many squashed runway end lights are out there because of FR pilots. One always gets what they pay for in life and FR management are now starting to see how real this concept actually is.

[Based]

They went PAST THE END OF THE RWY. They crossed the white lines. This is something that cannot be defended so all this crap about good airmanship is garabage. They f**ked up...simple as that. And its something those idiot training captains must be pushing at FR because you see it all the time. I wonder how many squashed runway end lights are out there because of FR pilots.

Talk about being a drama queen 00seven! As a matter of interest is it unacceptable to cross these white lines as well? (This is a genuine question - I'm not saying that it definitely is!) http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=friedrichshafen&ie=UTF8&ll=47.667447,9.501291&spn=0.00228,0.004957&t=k&z=18

I'm not a pilot so I'll get out from where I don't belong after this, it's just hard to bite your tongue reading posts by people who would seem like they'll feel their Christmas' have all come at once if there's, God forbid, ever a major Ryanair incident. Thankfully it's (using my best judgement of his/her posts here) rational people like Saitek that are employed in EMA.

Keep up the bashing people, this is just the kind of stuff O'Leary laps up! Cue some Based basing too:)

[sudo909]

Posted with an alt - edited.

[Hotel Mode]

As a matter of interest is it unacceptable to cross these white lines as well? (This is a genuine question - I'm not saying that it definitely is!) http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...04957&t=k&z=18

That picture shows a displaced Landing threshold. So if you are landing then yes the landing threshold white line shows the start of the useable runway. The Take off theshold line is the one relevent to take off and that has grass beyond it so yes i'd suggest it is unacceptable to cross it.

[The ghost]

Incredible how some people here are turning everything into a never ending discussion about who is in the better airline etc etc.

I'm trying to learn something out of this!

Seven pages but so far almost nothing usefull about runway markings for example.

Can you taxi onto chevron markings for example to turn the aircraft around?

[Aerostar600A]

If you want to learn about runway markings, go to the Jepp WWT rather PPRUNE.:ugh:

[The Real Slim Shady]

They went PAST THE END OF THE RWY. They crossed the white lines. This is something that cannot be defended so all this crap about good airmanship is garabage. They f**ked up...simple as that. And its something those idiot training captains must be pushing at FR because you see it all the time. I wonder how many squashed runway end lights are out there because of FR pilots.

CAP 168 shows that the white line indicates a displaced threshold and the line may be crossed to utilise the full length for take off.

[ManaAdaSystem]

"An Engineered Materials Arresting System (EMAS) uses materials of closely controlled strength and density placed at the end of a runway to stop or greatly slow an aircraft that overruns the runway. The best material found to date is a lightweight, crushable concrete. When an aircraft rolls into an EMAS arrestor bed, the tires of the aircraft sink into the lightweight concrete and the aircraft is decelerated by having to roll through the material."

Why didn't he sink through the surface the moment he entered the EMAS area? What good is an EMAS area if it has the bearing strenght to carry a loaded 738? The main wheels didn't sink through at all?

[Mikehotel152]

If we all looked to the source material everytime we had a question about anything related to rules or technical issues half the threads on Pprune would become redundant.

The ghost is spot on. 7 pages of people b1tching about Ryanair and no real discussion of what happened, apart from 'they :mad: up' because they tried to turn around in a sandpit.

IMHO that sandpit looks suspiciously like a Runway Slip or RESA, so they might have justifiable expected it to be graded. On the other hand, neither of those are intended for the use by aircraft in the normal course of events, so I can't help but wonder what they thought they were doing. :hmm:

[despegue]

00seven and the like,

Instead of shouting "they went over the white lines", get your noses into the books and learn standard ICAO runway markings and signs.
Wannabe's have other forums to play in by the way. (general remark)

If the crew thought that this EMAS (never even heard of this term before I have to confess) was concrete, there was no indication that the area was not a "load bearing surface". Chevron markings, taxi side-stripes (yellow) or crosses should be used to make clear that this area is not part of the manoeuvre area.
A steady white line does not per definition mean that you can't cross it. Just look at the displaced thresholds at Heathrow (09R for example).

If you do not have your ICAO Annexes at hand, you might also find this info in your Jeppessen Student Route Manual if you still have one, in your company documentation or even on...the internet.

Can someone post here some example images (I am a computer analphabet and have no clue how:O) that might "enlight" us aviators in the dark?!
We might then actually learn something from reading these pages... (god forbid)

Despegue

[Herod]

Guys, has no-one ever had the situation where he's thought "if only I could have those ten seconds again"? We've all made errors of judgement and, thankfully, most of us have gotten away with them. These pilots have presumably had a few days suspended without pay, and are now having to face "trial by prune". Could I ask the pilots to reflect how they would like their fellows to comment if ever their error becomes public, and at the same time ask the others on this tread to log off and go play with Flightsim. You can f*ck up all you like there and no-one will be any the wiser.

[felixthecat]

What went through these guys minds and their thoughts are only known by them and there but for the grace of god go I.

However as Crewcostundercontrol points out the corperate culture and pressure put upon pilots in Ryanair is a disgrace. It is only a matter of time before something serious happens in this company.

[Right Way Up]

Chris777,
Virgin & BA have both had their fair share of cock-ups in the past. Every company has them once in a while.

[Pimp My Ride]

The above bitching is an example of what really disappoints me with PPRUNE and many pilots found posting here. Guys have a little self respect and some consideration for others when posting.

Congrats to all who have showed their professionalism through their contributions, it really is a shame that you have to endure the plethora of
"characters" on display here.

On with the debate.

[captjns]

Question... can anyone who has contributed to this thread admit to never making an error in judgement or operation from early days to the present? Whilst it appears to be a negative event, in reality it gives food for thought about our disciplines. I think the lads in this incident are beating themselves up more than all those who have lambasted them on this thread.

How many will be more aware of the yellow line so one does not drag a wheel in the grass, or taxying beyond the runway's end, or even special attention whilst preparing for a landing at a short field with crappy weather?

[slip and turn]

Pimp MR you are right, but what disappoints me most about this thread is that absolutely no-one in the whole seven pages has really made the point that this is a Ryanair airline transport operations at Lodz problem.

Now of course there is a chance that it is no such thing: it is possible that any two pilots at Lodz could have got simultaneously distracted for a moment and the classic "Oh bugger!" occurred, but it doesn't 'feel' like that's what happened.

No, what the various commentary 'feels' like is that they drove down the road into a soft patch they just didn't know was there!

The pilots themselves don't seem to be the problem. The standard of their training on type isn't the problem. I don't think it is fair to say their ability to choose the right plates and interpret them is the real problem, either. It very much seems, from reading between all these lines on seven pages, that the real problem was the airline's (lack of) on the ground knowledge of this airport. And maybe its even as bad as the airline not seeing this kind of thing as their problem but as their captain's problem, that was the real problem.

This kind of mistake could surely never happen if Ryanair ops were properly on the ball and communicating peculiar hazards like this to training captains who in turn would communicate it to those captains expected to operate the route?

Contrary to popular opinion, Ryanair isn't a fly anywhere military type operation, and its pilots are not 'fly anywhere' pilots. If they were, I have no doubt that the 'can do' current batch would be part of a relatively successful air force. But that's not the game here. Here we have a commercial airline which chooses to fly to unusual airports. Nothing wrong with that at all so long as les installations are PROPERLY checked out BY THE AIRLINE in advance, and all pertinent information is PROPERLY communicated BY THE AIRLINE to its crews in advance. No surprises. We can't, and Ryanair management can't expect Ryanair pilots to be some kind of roving DIY boghoppers anonymous personally managing the peril of every unsignposted offroad soft or wet patch in Europe that they might encounter.

Had anyone on the Ryanair ops payroll ever stood on that surface before the incident? I wonder. No need to? Oh OK. So it was 'discovered' how? Not by this event, I hope.

There is such a concept as 'due diligence'. You can't escape it in this world no matter what kind of 'can do' airline or corporate outfit you might think you are. There are simply some things you must do in peacetime ops, like check, check, and check again (if you don't mind).

Otherwise you must as an organisation expect from time to time to look worryingly daft.

[charterguy]

What it boils down to is that RYR employ people that wouldn't get a job anywhere else.

Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

Most of their crews should be flying Senecas, while they are learning how to fly an aircraft properly !!

That's why I am avoiding RYR altogether.

CG

[ayroplain]

What it boils down to is that RYR employ people that wouldn't get a job anywhere else.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Most of their crews should be flying Senecas, while they are learning how to fly an aircraft properly !!
That's why I am avoiding RYR altogether.

Great, CG. Thank the Lord that I'll never have someone as pompous as you contaminating the atmosphere in my aircraft.

[felixthecat]

Charterguy you are talking total rubbish.

There are pilots who failed to get job in Ryanair who are now flying for BA Virgin etc. Plenty of ex Ryanair pilots are flying for major carriers worldwide now.

What can be said is that Ryanair take pilots in desperate need of a job due either to lack of experience or unfortunate circumstances with airlines collapsing and take advantage of them. They rule by the stick not the carrot.

The problem IS NOT THE PILOTS it is the corperate structure and pressure from management.

[Aerostar600A]

From a take-off performance perspective, there is never, ever, ever any reason or need to taxi past the end of the piano keys when lining up an aircraft. Its a ridiculously easy and simple rule to stick too unless its immediately obvious to the PIC that extra pavement is available beyond the threshold markers, but in this case, unless the extra pavement is clearly marked with runway edge paint which helps to identify it as being part of the physical runway pavement, I wouldnt touch it......no need to because I already know my take-off figures are safe even with a 30-40m line up allowance. Would love to know what that crew was thinking or was it not their intention to go there but for some kind of distraction ended up where they did. I hope the latter is the reason for the accident rather than the Captain looking for a few extra lousy meters for take-off. By the way, I worked for FR last year on a contract and whilst management are somewhat difficult to work with, flight deck policies and procedures are excellent IMO. The problem I saw was that In my case, not all F/O's would stick to procedure and some were tending to develop bad habbits. In general I thought the standard was excellent, especially the cadets who were quite good indeed. Keep up the good work. I miss the flying which was very challenging.

[captjns]

Charterguy… a very disappointing and immature attitude towards your fellow airmen. Please tell us your opinion of pilots who work at other low cost carriers such as Wizzair, Flyglobespan, Futura, just to name a few less paid than FR? Better yet… how about other charter pilots who may earn considerably less than you flying the same equipment that you do?

Please enlighten us Charterguy… if FR crews, which are likened to monkeys, in your opinion of course, then what category of circus performer or zoo attraction do you fall into if your pay is less than others flying the same equipment that you fly?

[Stan Woolley]

Ignorant charterguy

Is it just me but how come the likes of Charterguy can get away with insulting myself and my colleagues without reproach?

Your comments are actually outrageous.

I'm not normally bothered but really it is not acceptable because it is simply not true. Chances are I earn more than he does and I turned down a 747 command to move to Ryanair because I want to be home with my family. Plenty others like me.

From a operating point of view the training department does quite an amazing job considering the task at hand with expansion that other companies would find staggering. I've worked for some of the 'top' UK charter airlines (Britannia/Airtours etc)so maybe charterguy would accept that my experience at least allows a sensible comparison.

In fact I'm hesitant to defend any of the airlines these days because there are many aspects I don't like but charterguy is well out of order.

[RadAlt]

My vote goes to a ban of Charterguy.
There's no reason whatsoever to be this insulting and degrade any of your colleagues on a Professional Forum!

[top jock]

Charterguy.

Well maybe there is a problem with the CAA in England as the Captain was English and trained there so maybe he is just like you.
****

[anartificialhorizon]

I have to agree.

Come on CG, you can't just step in, light the petrol and then s**d off !

Stand by your comments or at least explain them....

[The Real Slim Shady]

I'm with Stan and RadAlt.

Charterguy's statement borders on libel.

I also checked his other posts and he spends a great deal of time shouting his mouth off in the Biz jet forum; his experience in airlines is limited. Maybe a turned down chip on shoulder wannabe.

[rubik101]

Charterguy, you and your friends have less intelligence than the monkeys you descended from. Pay peanuts eh? Did you bank over £5000 last month?
You and your ilk think you know it all, in fact your ignorance outshines your idiocy.
Stable rosters, excellent pay, every night at home. No wonder FR attract so many ex long-haul Captains from flag carriers who have had enough of squatting in mouldy hotels around the world.
Some people seem to think that FR do everything differently to other airlines, they don't. They operate Boeings the Boeing way. Indeed, with the largest fleet and the most sectors of any airline in Europe, around 1000 landings a day, they would be foolish to try to operate any other way. Why does that make FR inferior to any other airline? Beats me!
Riding on to an unmarked pavement area at an unfamiliar airport seems a trivial error when compared to what has happened in other airlines in the past. Jumping on the FR bashing bandwagon seems the most popular pastime for some of the posters here, how sad is that?

[lgw_warrior]

charterguy,you talk rubbish.

As mentioned earlier,there are a lot of ex charter/flag carrier pilots operating for Ryanair,and yes,they chose to be there!there are also lots and lots of ex ryanair pilots flying in the majors, BA,Virgin,Monarch,First choice thomson.... to name but a few.

I have nothing but respect for these guys,they fly challenging schedules into some very challenging airports,under a very challenging managment structure!

Now i dont know about your 'bucket and spade' lot,but Ryan operate a fleet of nearly 200 aircraft with around a 1000 flight's a day!! thats a lot,i should imagine a lot more than your outfit.

You also have to remember that with such a vast network these guys may fly to Lodz once every couple of months,if that,so unlike charter ops,who have a more limited schedule and maybe fly to same place 3 times a week and could probably recite the jeppy chart in there sleep,every time they make an approach its almost like going there for the first time so local knowledge is limited.

saying that,a mistake did happen,but charterguy,as mentioned around page 2 of this thread,the captain of this aircraft was a highly experienced ex flag carrier/mainline operator,maybe he even has more experience than you on Senecas!:rolleyes:

so come on charterguy,we all wait with baited breath to hear your replys............

lgw

[eagerbeaver1]

Aerostar, I have to disagree with you there my friend, I fly from Luton and a full length departure requires you to cross the piano keys on to the turning pan. It is marked out and lighted correctly.

IMO poor airfield briefs exasperate the situation, I have a book where I write down the peculiarities.

[stator vane]

two possibilities--

charterguy was taking the mick--and is enjoying the reaction he has evoked from other posters--

charterguy was serious---

either way, the best response is to simply ignore his comment.

chill---

my take on the event, simply, i wouldn't take the aircraft onto an unmarked surface personally. but there's no need to crucify him either.

the best thing to do with an aircraft mistake, mine or someone else's, is study just enough to learn from it and then put it behind you--

we all have done some stupid things.

as for my take on the young captains at ryanair (i work there but am not a young one by any means)--congratulations. as long as they keep listening and learning, they'll be even better later on.

[Aerostar600A]

Eagerbeaver,

That is what I mean when I say that it has to be properly marked out and obvious to the PIC that the area is useable. I recall flying into Leeds from memory (correct me if i'm wrong) but there I regularly went past the piano keys to get extra usable runway in front of me. But it was clearly marked and obviously useable. Perhaps I'm thinking of another airport, but its one of those UK ports FR flew into from DUB. That is where I was based. I met a lot of very experienced dudes in FR and to suggest that they could not get jobs at flag carriers is wrong in the extreme!

600

[Stan Woolley]

Sorry stator but I disagree. Occasionally yes but I'm just fed up ignoring it all the time.

If I insult an individual it's unacceptable but it seems to be fine to insult a group of individuals who are easily recognised?

It's just that unchallenged posts like that breed more of the same and I think that at some point it starts to matter.

[Yaw String]

Having been involved myself at Luton, March 1991, B767, I have the following advice to anyone else who finds themselves "off road". Shut down the engines asap, especially if you have a low wing situation. Our pod was resting on the ground.
Also, and most important of all, keep your head down as the pax, press helicopters, You tube/Pprune paparazzi et al, try to video you in the flight deck!
So much for Nigel's Patio! I think it was on special offer from MFI Garden Depot!
:ooh::ooh:

[Checkboard]

A summary, then. The aircraft became bogged whilst taxiing off the runway. The pilot taxiing either:


Deliberately taxied off the hard surface. Almost impossible to believe.

Was distracted (along with the second pilot) to the extent that neither was looking out the window as they approached the end of the runway. Possible, but unlikely when you are appoaching a 180 degree turn.

Had an obscured view due to conditions of the time (e.g. glare) If the view approaching a 180 turn was that obscred, they should have stopped.

Knew their ICAO airport markings, and believed that they were taxiing towards a permanently displaced threshold, allowing them to cross the threshold and turn beyond it. As the runway is correctly marked, this error would be one of having such a strong mental model that the imagination "drew in" the missing lines. This is possible if, say, the runway they use most often is in this configuration and they were compacent (perhaps through fatigue.)

Didn't know their ICAO markings, and thus saw the correct picture out the window, but didn't understand that they were taxiing onto a suface not capable of supporting the aircraft. An error in professionalism? Perhaps better training? Perhaps better markings? Perhaps a change in the ICAO standard?


Given some of the responses in this thread about markings:
Looking at the video the aircraft was on the turning pad at the end of the runway.
but it also looks like a stopway...which of course you CAN taxi on.
When the portion of the runway is intended to be maintained as a stopway, chevron markings should be in place. This is also the same with EMAS. There should be yellow chevron.
I expect an area to be marked off if i can't taxi on it.
here was no indication that the area was not a "load bearing surface". Chevron markings, taxi side-stripes (yellow) or crosses should be used to make clear that this area is not part of the manoeuvre area.
A steady white line does not per definition mean that you can't cross it.
... I wouldn't be surprised if (4) was the most correct answer.

[d71146]

Personally with respect to everyone I believe that we should all pipe down including me on the pro's and cons of this unfortunate incident and await the official report on this as the crew I think are aware of this thread.

[PBD 1]

Like I said...JAR and ICAO compliance...bring it on especially at Lodz!! Of course you can cross a white line, there are multitude of places where you HAVE to and MUST do this. Charterguy are you really sure avaition is your vocation??

[Bomber Harris]

Aerostar.....you said
"From a take-off performance perspective, there is never, ever, ever any reason or need to taxi past the end of the piano keys when lining up an aircraft." and just to repeat a few of those words again "never, ever, ever "

And the you said a few posts later "I recall flying into Leeds from memory (correct me if i'm wrong) but there I regularly went past the piano keys to get extra usable runway in front of me"

My god I'm confused. I think you want to sound like you are correct and perfect and all that kinda stuff, but it just sounds confusing and arrogant.

The piano keys are NOT the definition of the end of the manovering area. Neither is a white line (why do all the plonkers keep repeating that and proving they don't know the regs?). Look at the photos....there are NO markings on this runway, there is no line of any description. Lots of ryanair destinations use turning pads so we are programed to use them. This is clearly an airport operations issue. Someone had to be the person to highlight it. Just glad it wasn't me and in this way. But i am prepared to admit....it could have been me. (bet you'd never say that aerostar:ok:)

[I Just Drive]

May I point out to all the jockeys amongst us who have the fortune to use long runways, that there are what are known as displaced thresholds. As you backtrack, the piano keys come and go, the white lines come and go, but as long as there are long pointy arrows, you are good to go a whole load more. In fact may I be so bold as to suggest that, if you are using performance figures from the 'full length', you are REQUIRED to go right to the very end. You might not be able to land on it but if you're taking off, its yours if you want it.

On the day you reject at V1 - 1kt, you will thank the lucky stars you elected to use the full length, and not the intersection departure you accepted for no good reason. (Not that this is relevant here).

Therefore, as a principal, if a crew elect to go right to the allowable end for a departure, good luck to them.

[nickyjsmith]

They did not go to the end of the runway, the completely left it and turned on a sand coloured surface after leaving the black main runway.There are lights at the end to mark the end of the runway.
If you go to the Lodz airport web site there is a link to a pdf which shows the detail of the current runway, i would presume the captain had this.
At the end of the day they left one surface and tried to turn on one which was sand like in colour and unfortunately turned out to be sand, no one was hurt and hopefully a lesson was learnt. If in doubt, stop or ask, the next time some one might not be so lucky.

http://www.airport.lodz.pl/files/aip_1..pdf

[I Just Drive]

I was replying to the guy who said don't go past the piano keys. Thats just silly.

I'll wait for the official report on the Ryanair guys.

That said, 'There but for the grace of God go I'. I say to the high and mighty holier than thou heroes, keep that in mind. A statistic i'd like to see is number of incidents per sector flown for FR vs any major carrier. I know who my money is on.

[M_R]

Permanent link to the videos:

http://www.takeofftube.com/view/963/ryanair-incident-missed-runway-ending-strip/

http://www.takeofftube.com/view/984/ryanair-skids-off-runway-incident-update/

[Herc708]

The Lodz chart above shows 'CWY 60x300' which suggests that the area in question is in fact a 'Clearway' rather than a 'Stopway'. A Clearway is a 'Cleared Area free of Obstructions' - for the engine out climb segment, quite obviously not for taxying on! In the case of Lodz it has this feature at both ends of the runway - well done Lodz!

[despegue]

On that file, this "EMAS" is not mentioned. I stand by my view that the surface should have had a clear marking that it is not part of the manoeuvre area.
I could have done the same as this crew, and anyone could have as this is an example of bad airport markings. A booby-trap it was.

However, there IS some responsibility to FR, in that FR should issue a Destination Airport Brief that includes these kind of "Airport-Specials" preferably with pictures. All too often, airlines don't bother. Don't know if FR does.

[Bomber Harris]

Nickyjsmith, your posting was almost complete rubbish. I think there was a comma in there that made sense!

Firstly it is normal to taxi past runway end lights. When you get a PPL you will know about that. I wish you the best of luck with your PPL.

Secondly the "sand" coloured surface was also a concrete coloured surface. It is common to have concrete runways. It is also common to have tarmac runways and cheaper concrete turning pads at the end. You will see this when you do your first cross country.

Thirdly, you presumed the captain had access to a document you found on the net. Im afraid this is a very very bad assumtion. When you get your first airline job you will find out that you only have access to your company approved part B manual which will be supplemented with notams. In this case neither noted that there was a RESA at the end of the runway which did not have the PCN for a 737. Sorry if i lost you on that because you obviously don't have your PPL but you did choose to post on a PROFFESIONAL PILOTS NETWORK and i don't have the time to explain how an airline works to you.

So hopefully you learned a lesson (as you suggested the captain might) and you will ASK IF IN DOUBT BEFORE YOU POST!!

So after you read annex 14 and know what the **** your talking about please post again!

[Aerostar600A]

Hey Bomber,

Call me arrogant, I really couldnt care less mate. That is your opinion and that's fine too.

I went past the piano keys at leeds many times because it was absolutely obvious to the PIC (me) that it was safe to do so. Generally speaking though, there is never ever any need to do that. This accident certainly highlights a good reason why we ought not repeat this practice.

Correct me if I'm wrong but at Leeds, the pavement beyond the piano keys at least looks like the same colour and texture as the actual runway pavement. In the case of this accident, there is a clear distinction between the end of the physical runway pavement and the area within which they stopped. That is and should be seen as a big threat when considering your line up options.

600

[BongleBear]

A Ryanair flight bound for Britain has crashed off the runway at a Polish airport

From http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=562808&in_page_id=1770

Good old daily mail.

"It is believed no one has been hurt."

I can't believe no one died. Lucky it wasn't sinking sand.

"Strong winds had forced planes to use the full length of the runway."

Wind was 110/12. With that 'strong wind' I think it's more a case of "Hero Captain saves the day" considering 'It is believed no one has been hurt'.

Finally, the headline:

"Ryanair flight bound for Britain skids off runway in Poland"

Have boeing still not corrected that ultra-low taxi speed skid problem out yet?

Congratulations Daily Mail, once again your reporters have compiled a stunning piece of journalism. It's efforts like this that keep us all wondering why the Politzer Prize hasn't found its way onto your mantelpiece.

[Ptkay]

Thirdly, you presumed the captain had access to a document you found on the net. Im afraid this is a very very bad assumtion.


You are very arrogant and ill informed...

The document is the official Aerodrome Chart-ICAO from the Polish AIP: AD 2 EPLL 1-1-1.
This is not "a document found in the net", this is official part of the PIC mandatory
set of documents to be held on board and in front of PIC face when using certain airport.

And this official ICAO document states CWY !!!!
Is there something you don't understand?

So maybe YOU should go back to the PPL ground school !

I will quote, with pleasure, again:


The Lodz chart above shows 'CWY 60x300' which suggests that the area in question is in fact a 'Clearway' rather than a 'Stopway'. A Clearway is a 'Cleared Area free of Obstructions' - for the engine out climb segment, quite obviously not for taxiing on! In the case of Lodz it has this feature at both ends of the runway - well done Lodz!


...and one more thing;

If you are so fond of Annex 14, look first into Chapter 1.1 Definitions:

Clearway. A defined rectangular area on the ground or water
under the control of the appropriate authority, selected or
prepared as a suitable area over which an aeroplane may
make a portion of its initial climb to a specified height.

(do you suggest we may taxi also on water???)

...and then into Attachment A, ATT A-3 :

3.3 Where a runway is provided with a clearway (CWY),
then the TODA will include the length of clearway, as shown
in Figure A-1 (B).

and then on the mentioned figure A-1 on the next page.

I assume you know the difference between TODA and TORA, ASDA or LDA ...

[Bomber Harris]

ohh those guys really would me up....don't post annoyed i guess.

hey ptkay. to answer your two comments
1/ i know well what that doc is. but come on, you know the polish aip is not avail to line crews, its whats on the jepps and airfield briefs....you really don't believe we have access to the aips of 20 countries in the crewrooms. Its part B thats approved and thats it!

2/ yes i do know the definitions. its the aerodrome marking section i'm talking about. there should be markings for a clearway which were not present as far as i can see from the video.

anyway, it's not really important what is said here. i heard this morning that the guys are back flying the line with no fault placed on them. that is what is important. so looks like the company investigators agree this was a minor incident...and boy do FR know how to treat you if you step out of line

[Chocks Away]

Yeh 737Jock.
Looks like they have no understanding of how V1 is calculated, visa intersection departures.:bored:

[SpaceBetweenThoughts]

Am somewhat surprised in all this technical discussion about runway markings and V1 etc that little comment has been made on fatigue and the effect that this can have on pilot judgement and minimisation of errors.

Now I am NOT suggesting that the crew were outside the legal parameters with respect to Flight Time Limitations but is it timely to review the length and numbers of Flight/Duty hours which are permitted by legislation?

Decades ago it took a major accident to get ANY flight time limitations. Later we had the Bader inquiry (in about the 1970s I think) after which the rules were revised.

Much has changed in the last few years. Multi sector days, repetitive early starts, increased traffic density, even the journey to the airport (and back) is more time consuming and potentially stressful. Ok its true that the gadgets and equipment on the a/c are better but maybe this type of incident proves yet again that it is the human beings up the sharp end that need most attention when it comes to flight safety.

[Ptkay]

1/ i know well what that doc is. but come on, you know the polish aip is not avail to line crews, its whats on the jepps and airfield briefs....you really don't believe we have access to the aips of 20 countries in the crewrooms. Its part B thats approved and thats it!

It means in your part B you do not have full ICAO Aerodrome Chart of the airport you are going to use ??
So how you find all the taxiways, aprons, gates etc?
How can you follow the ATC commands?
Interesting...

2/ yes i do know the definitions. its the aerodrome marking section i'm talking about. there should be markings for a clearway which were not present as far as i can see from the video.


Since you are such a specialist on Annex 14, tell me where I can find
in it the description and definitions of the clearway markings????

I think there are NONE, the same as there are no extra markings for grass or mud...
Markings are for the areas where you are allowed to move around on the ground,
not where you are supposed to fly above or avoid at all.

So there are markings for runways, stopways, taxiways etc.

Generally, what I was taught by my CFI, follow the yellow line or green lights,
DO NOT ENTER anything that is not marked in a way recognizable for you...

Of course there are a big X markings on some surfaces, that look like taxiway or runway,
but are temporarily or permanently out of use.

But do you expect the airports to lay X everywhere around the runway?
On the dirt or grass around.

This runway in Łódź was just recently renovated, sand all around both ends...
Do you really think you are supposed to taxi on all surfaces at the airfield with no big X non it?

C'mon...

[nickyjsmith]

Sorry to annoy you bomber,you are right, i'm not a pro but i find it kind of scarey that you guy's and girl's would fly into an airport without all the relevant information just because your company SOP's say so.

I did not mean to offend the Captain, surely he/she has the authority to call ATC to confirm something especially if you don't have the AIP for the airport.

Does the level/quality of information available vary for different airlines?

You can't blame the airfield, the document's were available,the area was defined correctly,they complied with the rules.Agreed, they could have had some kind of low barrier to better define the area but they were not required to. Is a crew required to have a copy of the AIP plate for the airfield?

May be things need reviewing so that area's are better marked and crews must have all the relevant information for destinations and diversions in their possession.

Not trying to offend, just a concerned beginner and frequent passenger.

[BongleBear]

nicky, the information available is the same for everyone as far as saying a pilot could gather all the info themselves or given to them by the company- you've shown that with a bit of time on the 'net you've got hold of the aip. however, if you were a ba captain and you flew into lodz for the first time you could say on here (with hindsight following this event) that you would spend the evening before studying all charts and looking at clearways, stopways, the taxi route, the terminal etc... but i would call you a liar.

in reality, you would probably simply turn up to the crewroom, pull the jeppeson chart out (if that's your companies chart supplier of choice) and take a look at arrivals, the type of approaches available, local terrain (low level charts, info on flight plans etc) and then have a chat to the guy sat next to you about it.

i am an fo with ryr out of ema and have flown to lodz several times. i can't remember noticing this area. i would have said something if i had noticed it visually, however i am prepared to hold my hand up and say that i hadn't spotted it on a chart. at ryanair we have the jeppeson charts printed in booklet form, each booklet containing all charts appropriate to that particular airport. along with this booklet we carry the rtow charts which, in almost all cases, has an airfield briefing section at the front which is a summary of the airport and is an excellent way of detailling the entire flight expected from star to sid and all in between (including local weather phenomena, anomalies, expected atc routings/descent profile planning and descent points to be expected etc..).

the company is very aware that they will always be under scrutiny for the guys and girls they recruit- plenty who are young, old, low houred and who don't have english as their mother tongue. this will never be an explanation for events like this however. i would say we hold the strongest and tightest sop's in the business, everything is written down for reference and when it comes to briefings we are hammered on these when it comes to all aspects of training.

in summary, this could happen to anyone. that's not to say lets not look at it and discuss, because we all know that's the best way to learn.

be glad it wasn't you and well done for those of you who admitted that you've been a bit poor in the past at studying that clearway is available.

bongle bear

[I Just Drive]

I know perfectly well how intersection performance is calculated and if you read what I said properly you would note I said 'for no good reason'. I can and do take intersection departures whenever appropriate. What I said was, if there is no real need to go from an intersection, use the full length. There can be no substitute for more runway in front of you. As you will know, V1 is calculated using perfect scenarios e.g. full braking, very quick reaction times etc.. If all those things don't stack up on the day you reject at high speed, you would be pleased you had used the full length. Even more pleased if you had done intersection performance and gone full length anyway. Again, I was simply making the point to the people who posted about going beyond the piano keys like its forbidden territory.

[Lurking123]

I think it is quite clear on the Jep where the runway ends.

Sorry, I'll get back in my box because someone thinks I'm a lawyer.

[I Just Drive]

Its easy then, would you rather take off on a short runway or a long runway.

Back to thread......

[GearDown&Locked]

...maybe on long rwy with preps for a short rwy :E

Anyway, are there many pilots doing this route at FR? Surely someone would have brought this type of potential trap to the next fellow pilot's attention, because inspite of what the plates don't say, it is misleading and seems rather unlogical to have to turn before the piano keys without any extended (read lateral) pavement to help the turn, a turning pad.

And yes, pilots are professionals and should know all this beforehand and all that, but some 'scenarios' are really asking for it, the way they are set.

[Aerostar600A]

Geardown

From the video in youtube, there are 12 piano keys painted at the threshold which means the runway is 45m wide. Turning a 737 with that width is just a walk in the park. They didnt access any extra width by going beyond the end of the runway, did they?

The fact is they taxied right past the end of the runway. Let that be a lesson to all of us especially in the absence of any additional runway markings identitfying an extension to the pavement surface.

In my experience, its usually very obvious where additional runway pavement is available beyond what has been used for take-off calculation. When its not immediately obvious, just don't do it, no need too. Anyhow, those FR pilots do fly into very difficult places and so the risk profile for their operations is higher.

Everyone involved still has a heart beat and a pulse so that's the main thing.

600

[737]

I was in Lodz yesterday. Its quite obvious where the runway ends and the sand starts. It doesn't look like runway, the end of the runway is clearly marked and the raised runway end lights are a dead give away. Any idea how they explained it to Ray?

Its even more obvious now since the Polish haven't even raked the divot!

[slip and turn]

Oh come on 737, you know this one didn't create a divot - their long drive ended in a perfectly manicured bunker :rolleyes:

[BongleBear]

probably told ray they'd take 1/2 pay for 6 months, then he said 1/4 and they shook hands. tea and biscuits paid for by pilots.

[in my last airline]

Definitely a lesson learned here, but I would like to say that having spoken to the guys from engineering who went out to rescue the a/c, they spoke so highly of the captain and the way in which he carried himself throughout the ordeal. He is a totally selfless, egoless and cautious person with a huge experience level, and was in from the very beginning with the UKs second flag carrier with lots of flight time and training time including Base trainer (heavy). So if it can happen to him, it can happen to us all. I'd like to say I am grateful for the lesson, and have learnt from it and beyond the taxiing incident, I have also picked up a few tips on how to conduct oneself post incident.

[Contam 7.7]

I don't know how Ryanair does it, but as a large Company with lots of destinations, an in-house hazard reporting system can turn into an Airport Briefing which is updated as required and kept with the plates/Jepps.

Then each pilot who goes infrequently to each destination has at least the latest hazard update which can help prevent some of these incidents particularly at the dodgy airports.

I would think that Ryanair has such a system in place.

[criss]

During the recent civil aviation safety conference in Warsaw,
during the discussion on "Just Culture" it was mentioned
by some ATC people that "Ranair lands when nobody else lands in Okęcie".


Can't be more far from truth...

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

I'm with criss on that. I fly mostly on Polish domestic routes and it seems that Ryanair is very conservative about wx - very often after landing in poor weather (and no, I never ever bust the minima) we learn from the ground staff that Ryan had just diverted... (they usually aren't happy about this - having to deal with ~180 pissed off pax :}) Also, I have never seen them cutting corners - I often hear them opting for full procedure, even if the wx and traffic situation scream for a visual app. They are very quick on the turnarounds though...

[Visual Calls]

Can't be more far from truth...

Is that right? Any explanation as to why I have often seen ryanair land in DUB and ORK in x-wind out of limits for an A320 - which has higher limits than a 737?

[despegue]

X-wind limits are demonstrated limits and not to be compared with minimums regarding visibility/RVR and DH, MDA.

[A4]

X-wind limits are demonstrated limits and not to be compared with minimums regarding visibility/RVR and DH, MDA.

Hmmm. Yes demonstrated by a manufacturers test pilot during certification - not with 150-200 fare paying pax in the back! Despegue are you saying that if you're given a x-wind which is higher than the max demonstrated you'll go ahead an land anyway? How could you defend that if it all went wrong? You'd be hanged in my opinion. I think the Lufty demo of pushing the limits is a good demonstration of how very quickly it can all go pear shaped.

A4

[captjns]

Old Lufty's landing started to go pear shape before he passed over the fence.

"How could you defend that if it all went wrong?"

The same way if all went pear shaped if landing calm conditions... probably a harder defense though... don't you think?

[A4]

Morning Capt.

Point I'm trying to make is that if you land in calm conditions and go off the side - that's incompetance - unless caused by some failure after landing. However, if you knowingly exceed the max demonstrated x-wind limit (in essence saying you're better than the test pilot - and you've got pax in the back...) and go off the side - that's negligence - and you open yourself up to all sorts of issues.

A4

[criss]

Vis Calls - Yes, it is right. I was referring to ptkay's statement that Ryanair often lands at EPWA when no one else does. This can't be more false, and no TWR controller at EPWA would say such a thing. My experience is quite the opposite - they hold when other a/c land, de-ice when no one would even consider checking their fuselage, and so on. A fellow controller from EPKT said that numerous times they held when wx was double than the minima for LLZ app. (I'm talking about ceiling/RVR minima, not xwinds). Sometimes I have an impression that ppl look at RYR's procedures and attitude towards safety thru their general attitude towards this airline as pax.

Of course, I cannot comment on what they do in DUB, maybe they feel more at home there.

[despegue]

one other thing:

a minimum regarding ceiling does not exist. You can perfectly try a Cat1 aproach with OVC0018, it is the RVR/visibility and DA that counts.
I have often seen aircraft divert/hold while we landed with runway approach lights/edgelights in sight at minima when the ceiling is reported below that.

[essexboy]

Reported base must be above minima when you pass the final approach fix. You may continue if it drops after that. "Approach Ban"

[despegue]

Essexboy, Negative.

Ceiling has nothing to do with the approach-ban criteria. It is however a common misconception...

here is what JAR-OPS says:

JAR OPS 1 Subpart D 1.405
Commencement and
continuation of approach

(a) The commander or the pilot to whom
conduct of the flight has been delegated may
commence an instrument approach regardless of the
reported RVR/Visibility but the approach shall not
be continued beyond the outer marker, or equivalent
position, if the reported RVR/visibility is less than
the applicable minima. (See IEM OPS 1.405(a).)

(b) Where RVR is not available, RVR values
may be derived by converting the reported visibility
in accordance with Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS 1.430,
sub-paragraph (h).

(c) If, after passing the outer marker or
equivalent position in accordance with (a) above, the
reported RVR/visibility falls below the applicable
minimum, the approach may be continued to DA/H
or MDA/H.

(d) Where no outer marker or equivalent
position exists, the commander or the pilot to whom
conduct of the flight has been delegated shall make
the decision to continue or abandon the approach
before descending below 1 000 ft above the
aerodrome on the final approach segment. If the
MDA/H is at or above 1 000 ft above the
aerodrome, the operator shall establish a height,
for each approach procedure, below which the
approach shall not be continued if the
RVR/visibility is less than the applicable minima.

(e) The approach may be continued below
DA/H or MDA/H and the landing may be completed
provided that the required visual reference is
established at the DA/H or MDA/H and is
maintained.

(f) The touch-down zone RVR is always
controlling. If reported and relevant, the mid point
and stop end RVR are also controlling. The
minimum RVR value for the mid-point is 125 m or
the RVR required for the touch-down zone if less,
and 75 m for the stop-end. For aeroplanes equipped
with a roll-out guidance or control system,the
minimum RVR value for the mid-point is 75 m.

Note. “Relevant”, in this context, means that part of the
runway used during the high speed phase of the landing down
to a speed of approximately 60 knots.
[Ch. 1, 01.03.98; Amdt. 3, 01.12.01]

[essexboy]

Despegue, It's Still early and Ive had a long week. You are right of course.

[RFusmoke]

DP "relevant in the context of"........

what has all this got to do with the incident on this thread?????

always amuses me ,if you guys want to teach each other the regs then set up a thread for it!!