Ground Collision At London City This Morning.

[TCOPS]

People talking about a ground collision at City this AM?

[TCOPS]

:ok:

Just heard, two RJ aircraft involved.

[mary_hinge]

The aircraft involved were a BA CityFlyer RJ100, registered G-BZAT, and Lufthansa CityLine RJ85 registered D-AVRJ.

Only the Lufthansa aircraft bound for Munich, had passengers on board. The BA Jet was parked, due to operate the service to Frankfurt.

[5Papa]

Yep I saw these two airplanes sitting next to eachother with their tails touching eachother. Sounds bad!

[Blink182]

Is the Barge getting readied ????

[TCOPS]

So this happend on stand? Was one of them pulling off?

[Deep and fast]

Was one of them pulling off?

Well that would explain why they were not looking out the window!!! :E:O

[slip and turn]

Tail hit tail?? I can't conceive of how this can happen at LCY unless the empty one was being positioned/pushed back by a tow team? Can anyone shed some light?

[Skipness One Echo]

Lufthansa RJ85 D-AVRJ is sitting near the localiser where the broken Swiss RJ100 was sitting ages ago, BA RJ100G-BZAT was towed from Stand 11 to remote Stand 13 this afternoon. Nothing obviously hanging off....

[TCOPS]

This is true, I have just looked at sound ground charts. Turning is full lock to the right with the lead off line. Of course, if this isn't followed then the wings may hit.

LCY does have push back stands are these push back stands?

[Skipness One Echo]

Standard procedure is to taxi off all stands, aircraft are however pushed back onto Stands 12,13 and 14, so *possibly* being pushed onto Stand 12 the Lufthansa may have hit the BA which was on Stand 11.

[slip and turn]

Unbelievable if that's what happened. That kind of push-back is a three man job I think, including the driver, and I can't see how it could fail with three. I could see opportunity for failure with driver plus one ...

Understaffed in a busy period? Wouldn't be the first time, I'm sure.

[FBOman]

The LH was under own power coming off of stand. Marshallers stopped the aircraft when they noticed the tail getting unusually close to the tail of the BA on the next stand. Unfortunately it was fractionally too late and the LH tail ended up wedged underneath the BA tail.
Thankfully superficial damage to both and both aircraft declared serviceable later in the day.

[Skipness One Echo]

One assumes to do this it would simply have turned instead of taxi-ing forward. Seems odd to me

[mini]

Someone not following procedures...

[tristar500]

G-BZAT is sitting pretty in EDI tonight, on a stand that implies its heading back to LCY in the early morning on the BA8701 or BA8711... :eek:

[slip and turn]

The LH was under own power coming off of stand. Marshallers stopped the aircraft when they noticed the tail getting unusually close to the tail of the BA on the next stand.I still don't get it.

At LCY I thought all aircraft stand diagonally with their tails closest to the buildings with the service road between the tails and the building as the buffer, or at least they used to...

The manoeuvre to get them lined up like that after they arrive on stand involved two marshallers, one to bring the ac on stand and turn it through 135 degrees, and the second to pick it up in the turn, stop it on the line and chock it. Stand 11 is the tiny one on the corner where the road goes around the old building, is it not? Is it regularly used for RJs?

Anyway, on departure I thought all aircraft taxied forward 5 metres own discretion straight off across the line onto the active area? No scope for clashed tails in that?

The involvement of "marshallers" is interesting because aircraft departing from stand used not to be under any marshalling control. Was this an example where the LH had made one attempt to arrive on stand and was directed by the marshaller to go back to the taxyway and try again?

Or did "marshallers" (not marshalling) just observe something odd and start windmilling?

None of the above? Well, you have to concede it all conjures scenarios as cluttered as those in my garden shed as the mower is extracated for the first cut of spring :suspect:

[speedrestriction]

Cityflyer have been a bit unlucky - I seem to remember one of their RJs getting dinked up in Glasgow last year by a fuel truck.

[whuian]

http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v235/151/88/663436866/n663436866_797683_9228.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=797684&id=663436866&op=1&view=all&subj=2362189782&aid=-1&oid=2362189782)

[Suzy the Floozy]

Yep I saw these two airplanes sitting next to eachother with their tails touching eachother.


5Papa,

I'm sorry, but this is still England and you claim to be at LCY, so please, its aeroplanes. (I can forgive the use of the word "Yep").


Suzy.
(Seemingly a one girl campaign for the protection of the English language.)

[alidad]

I am surprised somebody hasn't mentioned the....................................
Oh all right , I will then - the WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rubik101]

TCOPS, your title is confusing! If you say that something happened today, then it is only a valid heading on the day you write it! Can you and other posters please avoid such titles, use the date please!
Pedants rule KO.

[Lurking123]

A bit late for all the hi-viz jackets?

[Tandemrotor]

Lufty looks to be well outside of his 'box'.

Trying desperately to think what, other than breach of SOPs, could have caused this.

Steering failure?

Distraction?

[slip and turn]

Totally and I mean totally fouled up LH position on what I think used to be stand 9 as seen currently in Google Earth (dunno if it still is). The Cityflyer seems to be on what used to be 10 and is barely in its box because that box is a tight fit (not as impossible as the old 11 might be, but tight). LH box seems to be about 39m wide and Cityflyer box 38m according to Google Earth.

Steering failure ? Brake failure ? I doubt it, sure they arrive with horribly hot brakes sometimes, but that LH has already turned through 220 degrees since it entered the stand which is a feat in itself :ok:. I can see no way in hell that it would have been stopped, chocked, embarked or disembarked at any position it has been through to get where it is in that picture. Under marshalling on arrival at the stand, and via a 135 degree right turn on a sixpence, the Lufthansa nosewheel should surely have straightened up and tracked the yellow line (which you can see under the left mainwheel!) and stopped just beyond and parallel to the white van in the background. Surely a total lash-up by marshallers and pilot? Was the pilot unfamiliar with the special apron procedures?

My guess is that the marshaller was in the process of running off somewhere to hide his shame or perhaps belatedly sending the LH back to the active part of the apron for another go. If I am right, once the turn has gone as far out of control as this, there is no-one looking for this kind of clash because it should never ever ever get this close. It looks like total loss of control of the taxy/marshall operation at the turn at the back of the stand and because it wasn't stopped anything could happen and did.


Or the other alternative?

Mabe they do things differently at LCY now, and park in zig-zag fashion routinely, and this was just bad luck :p

I feel sorry for the guys and girls involved but that picture just makes me cringe :O

[Skipness One Echo]

BA appears parked correctly. Hell knows where the Lufty was going !

[TCOPS]

Just had a look at google maps and typed in EGLC. Zoomed in the the West stands, opposite A and B hold points.

Someone mentioned here the BA was towed from 11 to 13? So this happend on stand 11, and the LH was on 10.

Stand 11 is small.

[Skipness One Echo]

Stand 11 is small, and is now required to have arriving aircraft pushed back onto stand, the same as Stands 12-14.

[TCOPS]

Explains why these a/c are so close then?

[slip and turn]

Skipness1E, can you tell us how the old stand numbers may have changed and whether they moved any of the boundaries of the existing boxes (I doubt that). If you use the firestation as a reference (I don't think they moved that?) then to the east of their yellow hatched area you come across two odd shaped (non-rectangular) stands. I think original number 11 was the first one, a silly little stand only used by 328s and ATR42s generally when I last looked closely. Then comes the old 10, which is where I reckon the Cityflyer was parked/pushed?

AFAIK if the numbers have changed it was chiefly to accommodate one or more new stands built over the dock at the eastern end which is where no. 1 was.

If you look at Google Earth you can see that the first ten numbered from the east (let's call them the original 1-10) are all about the same size apart from 10 itself which is adjacent to the start of the service road corner.

I am still convinced this is old stands 9 and 10. You can see the beginning of the corner curve edging 10 - the white line in the foreground. Others may be able to confirm the new stand numbers if they have changed.

Actually, unless there are now more than 14 stands on the southern perimeter, I'd say it hasn't changed yet and that 12-14 are the three to the west of the fire station.

So then ... it's stands 9 and 10 in my old book until someone shows me a confirmed number change or an extension at the east end :p


But one thing is for sure, there is no way these aircraft could ever get within 5 metres of a foul up like this under any normal procedure. The LH is 90 degrees to any correct parking line (unless they changed it!). Look how close the wings are too...

[Chuffer Chadley]

I have been (fairly) reliably informed that the incident happened while the BA was parking, and the Lufty was manoeuvring onto stand- so both ac moving.

That would make a certain amount of sense, although it does appear from the photograph that the BA was in its box. Looks to me like the LH turned too aggressively to the right in picking up the lead-out line from the stand.

Oh, well.

Cheerio
CC

[slip and turn]

Looks to me like the LH turned too aggressively to the right in picking up the lead-out line from the stand. What kind of talk is that?? :yuk:

Does that include not turning at all until it's too late, getting lost in a 39m box and then not stopping when its obviously gone pear-shaped? :=

[TCOPS]

No stand numbers have been changed, stand 11 is the small stand where the BA is parked. 10 is the LH stand.

Stand 11 is opposite A and B holding points, reference to the pic and an aerial picture.

Airtraffic wouldn't give premission for stand 10 to pull off stand with 11 pushing back would they.

[Spitoon]

can you tell us how the old stand numbers may have changed and whether they moved any of the boundaries of the existing boxes (I doubt that). s and t, for all the expertise that you profess to have and allude to, it seems strange that you don't know where to look to find out the current stand arrangements at LC.

Still, I doubt that it will stop you spouting anyway...
So then ... it's stands 9 and 10 in my old book until someone shows me a confirmed number change or an extension at the east endWe wouldn't want a silly little thing like correct data to interfere with our comment on the topic would we?

[slip and turn]

Thanks TCOPS - I've had another look, I am sure you are right. Sorry for misleading anyone about it being 9 and 10 - I just couldn't believe they squeeze an RJ on 11 even by pushback. It surely only fits in exactly one spot :p

So it's 10 and 11 and I can't believe they are so daft as to use 11 for an RJ ever, let alone when 10 has one on it too.

Totally bonkers.

This airport is trading way over its capacity at busy periods. I am surprised that the CAA think its okay to let it expand so fast. Does an inspection team of a dozen or so CAA personnel ever turn up unexpectedly on a cold dark rainy/icey night with clipboards and take a stand each? They'd learn a lot if they did.

There just isn't enough space for any contingency now. It's like a flippin' aircraft carrier :eek:

It all appears to be great fun of course for crews, groundstaff and passengers alike, but it looks crazy at times, so this sort of thing shouldn't surprise us :hmm:. It's a wonder it doesn't happen more often. At least the staff always seem alive - you can be pretty sure they certainly don't sleep on the job at LCY - there's no space to hide your sandwiches let alone to lay down :ok:


Oh and Spitoon, you just don't know when to spout and when to spit, do you, give it a break.

I find it easier sometimes to use my mind than to hunt for a long out of date Jeppesen chart or to find my way to the sources you spend all day using.

Just be glad that there are people with enough knowledge watching this industry. We don't have to be expert but we can see things you don't want to talk about sometimes....and I am not talking about the photo of what happened, but the sort of things that lead up to incidents like this.

[Chuffer Chadley]

Looks to me like the LH turned too aggressively to the right in picking up the lead-out line from the stand.
What kind of talk is that??

Does that include not turning at all until it's too late, getting lost in a 39m box and then not stopping when its obviously gone pear-shaped?

I'm sorry, S+T, but I don't see where your problem lies. By 'too aggressively', I mean too much, too quickly, for too long or a combination of the three. I thought that would be fairly clear to anyone familiar with parking at LCY, or indeed plenty of us familiar with tight parking spots at other airports.

CC

[Spitoon]

Just be glad that there are people with enough knowledge watching this industry.Ohhh, please tell me that you're not referring to yourself with that statement!

[DutchBird-757]

Bottom line is that NO 2 RJ'S should be parked next to eachother on stand 10 (LH) and 11! (BACF) Where 11 is the small stand and may only hold up to the F50 IIRC. (so NO RJ and Dash8Q4) should be parked there. Airfield ops is to blame for this one. (I only found out because of this incident)

[slip and turn]

Well I sorry to have put yours down so, Chuffer, but I guess it's cos while I stood in queues there in a previous life, I watched how it all worked. On first glance it all looks too tight, but the drive straight in under control of a couple of marshallers, and turn 135 carefully and stop diagonally, followed by an easy drive out the front on departure did seem to make the best use of the space and still does.

If you look at the yellow stand exit lines you will see that a sharp immediate right turn is marked anyway. If the LH aircraft was departing it is fair to assume it shold have been properly parked with its nosewheel within spitting distance of the correct mark on the apron and its fuselage aligned heading approx 315 degrees. When they drove off stand, no matter how tight they turn, the tail never gets into that south-western corner if they drove in right in the first place. And if they were more than a metre or two out when it came to stopping and fuselage alignment then I saw marshallers wave them off again.

In all the aerial shots you can see the twin lines marked for entry for the stand. Actually when I was a regular there was only one line I think. I don't know which one of the latest lines is for RJs but basically when the nosewheel reaches the yellow T marker nearest the terminal the marshaller turns it quite sharply through 135 degrees so that all the tail wagging ever necessary occurs in the south eastern corner of the box.

This LH to me looks like it came onto stand, perhaps was unfamiliar with the procedure, may or may not have been on the right line and was turned too shallow at the terminal end so that the tail ended up in the south western corner of the box where you should never expect to see it.

Now if it arrived like that and the marshallers accepted it and disembarked/embarked it, then that's a different story. In that case it was already far out of any procedure for the box and so your aggressive right turn could come into play at that point, but the pilot could not fail to be made aware during turnaround that said aircraft was dangerously offline and too close to the next box. So even if the marshallers and ops allowed it, the pilot would exit very gingerly, n'est pas?

I think the most likely scenario is that the LH came on and the terminal end turn foul up was made and it was very very surprisingly allowed to continue as far as it did.

Sorry for poo-pooing but, seriously, any better ideas?


Actually Dutchbird I recall being told that the F50s had a wider wingspan than the RJs, because it was noticeable that hey were more likely to get a wingtip near the next box than anything else at the time, and just for Spitoon, I actually looked it up before posting. As Spitoon knows, a lot of what I spout has serious basis in fact, even though I might not hit treble twenty each time and one and five are next door :p

Oooh indeed, Spitoon :ok:

[Skipness One Echo]

Now it is *rare* but I have on a few occasions seen 146 / RJs on Stand 11. City is at capacity in peak hours alas but the new stands to the East are a step forward.

[Tandemrotor]

I have to say I agree with 'slip and turn'. I don't recall any arrival or departure procedures that requires the tail to move into the SW corner of the box. (Never mind beyond it!)

Which is why I am trying to think of other scenarios.

Though of course, as professionals, we should just sit tight for the official report!
:rolleyes:

[slip and turn]

Though of course, as professionals, we should just sit tight for the official report Ah yes, well that's where us {INSERT YOUR CHOICE OF TERM, but gently please} just have to tread water carefully sometimes while we wait for you pros to catch up ;)

[Tandemrotor]

Oh OK!

In an attempt to 'catch up'!

My utterly unsubstantiated theory, and with the luxury of total ignorance (and only because nobody was injured!) is this:

Lufty was taxiing onto stand. Used a touch too much right brake, and not enough left. This means the nosewheel steering comes off the rack, and no longer functions, with the wheel at more than 70' off centre.

If the taxi speed was slightly higher than normal, the aircraft could easily end up in this position before coming to a halt.

Just unlucky for them, they were on the tightest stand!

It's a 'theory'! :E

[TCOPS]

Do airfield ops do the stand planning at city? Not ATC??

Even so, neither of these departments sell slots. Pretty much seems LCY is too busy and have to do things like this?

And stand 11 for a F50? If you can't park an RJ with a much shorter wingspan, then 50s defiantly out of the picture!

And what is with people picking on peoples wording and knowledge of EGLCs ground layout, if the people picking are so clued up, then perhaps they could answer our questions to ask....
...How did this happen?
:mad::mad:

[slip and turn]

:p ... Tandemrotor, like it, as a theory :ok:

But a steering fault is one thing but the brakes still work, don't they? The marshallers should have crossed the wands long long long before while it was still facing the terminal building at some abortive angle.

Oh well ... easily said with hindsight I guess ... I do hope there WAS a marshaller for the first bit ... I recall seeing them running down the apron after leaving a different job trying to get to stands before the aircraft came on at peak periods ... sometimes the corner marshaller came from the other end of the apron and got there first :oh: ... then there'd be a mad moment as they held their radio mikes close jabbered something, agreed a swap and No 1 carried on running while his mate (or hers! - yep girlies with brown knees in the summer!) did the 'bring it on' bit.

Here you go, many of us have seen this one before but this gives you the gist of how it worked when it was at around 50% of the current pax throughput maybe 5 or more years ago I think :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY5TueMRq0k

Hope the youtube link is allowed? But I think this video is fairly public domain deliberately 'cos it was obviously shot from the control tower...

[towser]

Fact; The Cityflyer a/c was parked on stand with no pax on board not moving. The LH aircraft was attempting to move off stand to depart with pax on board. Belief; the LH aircraft had been pushed back on to stand because the inbound skipper was unhappy about the clearance , it apparently wasn't quite in the right position so in taxing off the stand in an attempt to get onto the taxi-off line a tight turn was needed which mean't the tail swinging across into the other aircraft.

[slip and turn]

Yeah I am sure you are right TR, the look of concentration on some of the crews faces in that turn and the way their heads went on stalks showed how interesting it gets...

Meantime, I knew there was a topical Youtube video of how much fun the ground teams have at LCY...

Please mods don't delete this link too quickly, it just makes me smile this one ... :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OCfe6D7efQ

Told you they all have fun, didn't I? :ok:

[frontlefthamster]

LCY makes a huge amount of money and is very popular with lots of people who know very little about aviation.

Therefore, the odd extra scrape is entirely 'deductible' in their terms.

50 posts - I think - (51 counting mine) and not a single band-aid applied to a slight cut...

The most important safety factor in aviation is, without doubt, the good old yankee dollar, whether it's spent and accounted in sterling, euros, yen, Vietnamese Dong, or whatever you state is your currency of choice.

[slip and turn]

I think you are probably right frontleft, and therefore should we be bothered about this one if anyone did get hurt well it'd only be some toff(s) who'd be instantly forgotten or some aviation peeps who thoroughly enjoyed their aircraft carrier job?

Safety ... it's nothing more than a transient state of mind really, kind of laid over an agreed framework of rules if you're lucky, but as you say, prone to all kinds of value judgements from people who know the price of everything.

[Mister Geezer]

Parking and taxing at LCY is a pain in the arse. I am surprised there are not more ground incidents! It will be interesting to see how tight they park the BA A318 when it starts flying in next year!

[slip and turn]

Yes that's a point - if I've looked it up correctly (Spitoon will check for me:ok:) the A318 wingspan is five metres more than even the F50 :{

Maybe they'll moor the barge permanently somewhere east of Stand 1 and use that? :}

[Tandemrotor]

I'm pretty sure the A318 can't operate out of LCY until the new stands are built, to the East of stand 1.

Landings and take offs are one thing. Keeping it there on the ground whilst the airport is open is another matter!

There are issues other than simple wing tip clearance in the parking areas.

That is of course if the A318 ever operates out of LCY!