Buy A Share Or Just Hire?

[Flintstone]

I'm thinking of reactivating my SEP rating and am wondering if it's worth buying a share in something. If I did it would probably be a permit aircraft (or whatever we're supposed to call them now) with two seats, no touring requirement as I can hire for that if the mood takes me.

What are your experiences? Good, bad or in between and what might be the do's and don'ts?

Looking forward to your replies.


PS East Herts area not a million miles from Panshanger if anyone knows of anything of interest.

[IO540]

The answer will depend on your requirements and what you can get.

The typical UK rental plane is a piece of junk so people who want something nicer either look for syndicates, or buy their own.

But there are exceptions - some schools have nice modern fleets, and then it's hard to justify a purchase (share or whole) unless you are doing a lot of hours or want longer trips away. A huge part of the case of a purchase is to get a reasonable quality plane, with availability for trips away etc.

If you definitely have no touring requirement then presumably you will not do many hours a year and the case for renting v. purchase will hang entirely on whether you are happy with what you can rent.

[Pilotdom]

FS,

The rental or purchase argument is an interesting one.

Sherburn have just purchased some AT-3's, touring spec with GPS etc. The wet rental rate is £83.00 an hour. Im willing to bet that is hard to beat for a club aircraft. There are other clubs with these aircraft and seem to offer good rates. Would you consider a LAA machine? something like a Europa or an MCR01, Im sure ROD1 will give you the info on running costs etc. A share will obviously give you greater flexibility for trips away etc. Getting a club aircraft for a couple of days may be difficult.

[Rod1]

“Im sure ROD1 will give you the info on running costs etc”

You will struggle to find a group owned MCR01 in the UK. Lots of Europa groups. I would expect the running costs for a Europa to be about;

Maintenance £600
Insurance £900
Hangarage on a farm strip in the midlands is about £1000 (no idea for your area)

You can keep them on/in a trailer and keep them at home, but this would not work for a group. Some are parked outside, but I am not a fan of parking anything outside if there is an alternative.

Fuel per hour £17

Typical purchase price is £25k to £35k. Some good ones about, some not so good.

You are restricted to daytime VFR.

PM me if you want more.

Rod1

[IO540]

Which one has just got grounded because the tails were falling off?

[Rod1]

Both, but in the case of the MCR only in the UK! Mine was out of action for 6 weeks, but in the rest of the world the remaining 468 carried on regardless with comments that the British were mad. An inspection of all the aircraft (509) showed no fault found but British aircraft have had to fit new brackets anyway.:rolleyes:

I got mine back on line in late March but a small number are still grounded.

Rod1

[AndyGB]

I was in the same situation earlier this year and went down the LAA group route.

One of the reasons I let my rating lapse was lack of hours and I couldn't justify spending 30 minutes of the hour or so I could afford each month doing a club check and there was no point in renewing just to let it lapse again in another 2 years.

When I looked into renewing I did the maths and the group costs for me are £45 a month and £35 an hour, so if I only do one hour a month it is not that much cheaper. However for the price of two club rental hours I can get just under 4 hours on the group aircraft and so am more likely to keep current and not have to spend money on constant checkouts.

There is also the attraction that I am not flying the standard C152/Warrior and have pride in 'my' aircraft.

[Flintstone]

If you definitely have no touring requirement then presumably you will not do many hours a year...

Ummmmm, not quite. I want something for stooging around locally, introducing my children to flying (ex-instructor so can see if they like it), maybe pottering off somewhere on my own. The fun will be in getting there at any speed so an LAA aircraft would work. If I want to fly quicker I just go to work :O

I'm tending toward something unusual. To be honest if an Isaacs Fury came up tomorrow I'd take it (I know, single seat) but in the absence of a selfish aircraft a basic two-seater will suit.

[IO540]

Well, you've got a bunch of replies both here and on Flyer. But it's always better to spell out the requirement in detail. If you are after renting something unusual that narrows things considerably.

[Fuji Abound]

I think flying fits into two categories:

1. Flying something challenging and interesting - Tiger Moths, Yaks, Husky, Cub, Pitts, etc.

2. Fly a sensible tourer - TB20, DA40 and 42, Mooney etc.

The first group are always fun and a challenge.

The second group are not much of a challenge, nor that interesting for pottering around the local cabbage partch but far better at getting you from A to B at a reasonable speed and without too many concerns about the weather.

I reckon that most aircraft fit into one category with few that cross over.

If you are lucky there are some more specialist schools and clubs that offer aircraft in the first category. They arent on the whole used for ab initio training so availability is reasonable.

There are plenty of schools with aircraft in the second category (although not necessarily the examples given). However, fewer schools have tidy examples that they are willing to let you take away for any length of time.

Plenty of groups with aircraft in both categories.

Unless you have places to go regularly and given your experience and the type of flying you do, you might find something in the first category the answer combined with a bit of hiring when you want to go further a field.

If you prefer to fly something in the first group your options are better. Almost certainly you dont want to fly far so if you are lucky and there is an operator with aircraft of this type far better to rent because availability is likely to be good.

[stickandrudderman]

Surely you've heard of the three Fs?

[Flintstone]

Yup. I've rented two out of three:E




But it's always better to spell out the requirement in detail.


I thought I'd made it quite clear what I wanted tbh, people certainly seem to have replied informatively. Lots of PM's in both places too. Thanks to all who replied.

[wrecker]

I know of a share in a cub available in north hampshire

[foxmoth]

When I looked into renewing I did the maths and the group costs for me are £45 a month and £35 an hour, so if I only do one hour a month it is not that much cheaper. However for the price of two club rental hours I can get just under 4 hours on the group aircraft and so am more likely to keep current and not have to spend money on constant checkouts.

Well on your figures that works out at £80-90/hour for a club aircraft - not many places in the UK where you can hire at that rate I would have thought - where are you?

[A and C]

So what is wrong with the DR400-160 or 180 for touring?

Far cheaper than a TB20 or Mooney,able to use runways at MTOW that the others can't, no VP prop and retractable gear to pay for.

The down side is it is a little slower but is will still make the South of France out of North London in four hours.

It is also a very green aircraft............... they are growing my next Robin in France as I write.

[Wide-Body]

Hi Flinstone

I bet you have paid for the third "F" indirectly!!!!

On the serious note, by your requirements as share in a PFA sorry LAA ac which you could cherish seems like a plan. It may be more expensive than renting the club hack but you know what you have got.

All the best

Wide

[Rod1]

You could get a share in a Jodel. You can pick up a 1/5 of one for around £3000 (or the entire aircraft for £12000 and sell shares), with £35 per month and £35 per hour wet. It would be fun and much cheaper than hiring.

Rod1

[Flintstone]

Rod.

I've considered that but it seems to me that finding a home for an aeroplane is perhaps the hardest part of the whole thing. While I like the idea of being in charge there's a lot to be said for joining an existing group. Less aggro.


wrecker.

Thanks but that's a bit far from home.



Wide-Body.

I find it spooky that you know what my third 'F' might be but you're right. By hiring an aircraft from time to time I suppose I have paid for it in some way :E

[Ken Wells]

Quite few aircraft shares for sale based White Waltham


Small selection

Yak 52 £5000
Cessan RG £10,000
PA 28 £2000 £62 a month
Jodel £1950 £3 an hour!
Aeronca Champ £2500 £55 an hour

Pop along and look at the notice board!

Cheaper than Renting if you fly at least two hours a month!

[XX621]

Make sure you do your research about the specific aircraft your are considering buying. I have just been through this process and there is more to it than meets the eye.

PM me if you would like some advice on the process (well, my version of it which just saved me from buying into a very considerable financial liability!).

[AndyGB]

Yorkshire, where a C152 from Sheffield Aero Club is £91 an hour :)

[Flintstone]

Thanks folks. Some of your nav skills are bloody awful though. Last time I looked Yorkshire and White Waltham are a loooong way from East Herts ;)

XX621. Thanks for the offer, PM'd you.:ok:

[betterfromabove]

xx621

You wouldn't mind putting up a potted version of your story, would you?

Sounds like might be a useful post!

Am also considering the same question right now. Know the club hassles, just finding out about the potential share gotchas.

Cheers
BFA

[Wibblemonster]

Flinters, you could always fit some wings to the Trevor? :ok:

[Ken Wells]

Thanks folks. Some of your nav skills are bloody awful though. Last time I looked Yorkshire and White Waltham are a loooong way from East Herts


White Walthams not that far from Panshangar. I did it in 45 mins last week! Driving M25 M4; easy peasy

[IO540]

While I like the idea of being in charge there's a lot to be said for joining an existing group. Less aggro.Well, that is one of the major ownership tradeoffs. In life, you cannot have control without responsibility :)

In GA, the choice tends to be

- rent, no hassle, but the planes tend to be crap

- buy something decent, but have to look after it (and pay up when you have to)

There is no escape, unless you happen to have a modern school nearby. Unfortunately, 'modern' tends to mean the Diamond DA40/42.

The DA40 is a 2-up plane which is flown with just one hand on the controls (because the reliability of the diesel engine is so poor you fly with the other hand's fingers firmly crossed behind your back).

The DA42 is much nicer but you need a ME PPL, and it costs a fair bit more to rent.

[Justiciar]

Owning aircraft is a mixture of cost, convenience, pride and having access to the aircraft you want. i think that costs can be misleading. A look at five years accounts for a standard Cherokee 140 group I am in showed an average cost of £130 per hour. This includes everything. A bit cheaper than hiring but not much. Hassel factor of running one's own group against availability? Fear that a major failure will lead to all the group digging into their pockets! You really need to look at cost carefully.

Being in a small group is I believe the compromise. Any flying is expensive so accept it. If you want something aerobatic then accept the (probably) greater cost involved in a more powerful aeroplane. If permit stuff is for you then there are many cheap aircraft out there where there are shares available. Above all, choose something which ties in with your lifestyle and the type of flying you will do (not the type you dream about doing). I have a great permit aircraft for touring - fast and cheap to run. Trouble is I never have the time to go anywhere more than a couple of hours flight time from where it is based (and where it is based is an hour's drive each way from where I live). So, it spends most of its life in the hanger.

[S-Works]

I have been involved in a couple of groups. I now own my aircraft with a very silent partner (5hrs in 12 months) and am in a group now on a pressurised tourer.

Groups are a great way of getting into aviation and allow you to keep the costs under control. The downside is often that you have to travel to get to them and you have to work around other bookings. They also allow you to get into higher performance groups for longer distance touring, all weather etc if that floats your boat.

I have a 2 mile hard runway at the end of my drive and the relief to that 2 miles away where I keep my aircraft so I am never more than a couple of minutes away from flying it allows me to fly when I want. Not having any group members to book around means that I can fly when I want and go away touring at the drop of a hat.

You really have to decide the type of flying that you want to do and decide what suits you best.

[XX621]

xx621

You wouldn't mind putting up a potted version of your story, would you?

Sounds like might be a useful post!

Am also considering the same question right now. Know the club hassles, just finding out about the potential share gotchas.

Cheers
BFA

Wilco.
I'm typing it all up at the moment - should be done by tomorrow (Thur).