Cowardly act on 121.5

[TheOddOne]

I was demonstrating a Practice Pan the other day to a student, just made contact with London Centre when an anonymous voice said 'No practice pans on here'. Both the controller and I ignored him and got on with our respective jobs.

My point is that this interrupted the flow of the demo and was cowardly in that the caller didn't identify themselves. I know this has been discussed before and the UK is unique as far as I know in offering this service.

The reason I'm keen to demo this to students and then get them to practice themselves on the next lesson is that I recently had a student solo who had to use the service in anger and I want to make sure all my students are better preparerd to use it effectively. London Centre are also keen that people practice both for the pilot's benefit and for controller currency.

How can we get this message across to those at FL350 who are required to keep a listening watch on 121.5 that it's a legitimate and encouraged exercise?

Cheers,
TheOddOne (use of a pseudonym isn't the same thing!)

[chevvron]

It's regretful that certain airline pilots seem to regard 121.5 as an air to air 'chat' frequency and resent it when it is used for a legitimate function.

[Reimers]

Whilst it may be legal in the UK to use 121.5 for practice pans, legal to use 121.5 as a test freq for ATC R/T equipment in Germany (most often in the morning), and legal for chatting in french when overhead France, there is one serious consequence of all this noise an an important frequency: It will lead to calls missed on the other frequency if 121.5 is monitored, or ATC has no back-up to contact an aircraft if 121.5 is turned off.
There should be other frequencies for chats, COM tests and exercises.

Of course, it is not up to any individual (airliner or other) pilots to enforce upon others what he percives as "best practice".

[sapco2]

I'm not sure what the current school of thoughts are on this subject but 30 years ago training used to consist of a demonstration to students (lost procedure - prior to cross country training) using the preamble "Practice Pan, Practice Pan, Practice Pan". It was considered useful training for the controllers and students alike, and obviously a real live Mayday or PAN meant the 'practice pan' would cease.

Is this sort of training no longer allowed?

[WestWind1950]

I will never understand why ANYONE would misuse the 121,5 for anything except a legitimate emergency/PAN! Can't you just arrange with your home airfield or ask for another frequency to use for practice purposes?

In Germany there's a board/board frequency, 122,800, for chatting...122,25 for balloonists, 123,15 for glider training, and so on....

I remember the Pprune discussion here about the 123,45 usage.... shame, shame...

Frequency's are designated for particular purposes, airfields, people, companies, etc.... don't use them for anything else! :=

There shouldn't even be a need for a discussion about this! :ugh:

I guess you can tell this is a pet peeve of mine :E

Westy

[mad_jock]

Frequency's are designated for particular purposes, airfields, people, companies, etc.... don't use them for anything else!


Yes and the instructor was using the frequency as per the law in the UK. So he was in the right as was the DnD controller. The coward was completely in the wrong.

Maybe they should take a few of the cowards to task publicly in the courts for being 121.5 police, a 100 pounds hit including costs should shut them up. DF them and pull the CVR when they land. You would only have to do it a couple of times.

BTW I have been asked 4-5 times now by an area controller to help out with controller training on 121.5 with a practise pan on box 2. Because "The GA boys arn't giving them enough practise".

DnD have pulled the tapes of 121.5 in the UK and by far the most traffic comes from CAT either by mistake or by intention for none emergency use.

[mini-jumbo]

I will never understand why ANYONE would misuse the 121,5 for anything except a legitimate emergency/PAN!

Below is an extract from CAP 413:

1.7 Radio Procedures – Practice Emergencies

1.7.1 Pilots may simulate emergency incidents (BUT NOT THE STATE OF DISTRESS) on
121.5 MHz to enable them to gain experience of the ATC service provided.

Using 121.5 in the UK from the above reasons is legitimate, documented and approved. It's a good way for PPL's etc to practive what they would do in a real emergency, so that they have the confidence if they even need to do it for real.

It's good for controllers, so that they can keep current and practice the relevent procedures.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Using 121.5 in the UK from the above reasons is legitimate, documented and approved. >>

Irrespective of what is written, sheer commonsense suggests that an immediate QSY to another frequency would be better than clogging up the real emergency channel. I've oft wondered why this doesn't happen. It's just like clogging 999 with irrelevant calls..

[ShyTorque]

I agree that chat on 121.5 can be a distraction. However, although under no remit to do so (I write my own company rules) I keep it dialled on my box 2 and simply use the volume switch to turn it down if necessary. Then, I turn it up again a minute later. Hey Presto....no problem!

The use of the frequency for practices, training fixes, etc is perfectly correct usage and valuable for both pilots and controllers. Yes, it would be good if we could have another dedicated frequency for training, but we don't because no-one is going to fund it - so we should just learn to live with what we have, know the rules and tolerate correct usage by others.

Increasingly these days, the most common (and most irritating) use is inadvertent use by commercial pilots (mainly airlines), apparently incapable of using their radios correctly. They are usually politely answered by others, often London Centre, after their second or third unanswered call intended for another agency. "Shanwick, Shanwick" is one favourite.... These pilots should learn to check which box they have selected before pressing the transmit switch. :ugh:

[Kiltie]

I agree with Heathrow Director. The use of 121.5 for practice pans is indeed approved legally but rather out of touch with the point these days. It is very distracting monitoring this frequency on the 2nd box only to have to turn it down every time a painfully long winded practice pan conversation takes place. This can naturally lead to complacency when it comes to monitoring responsibilities by the pilot.

Having said that we are privileged in the UK that 121.5 is not nearly as infested with chit-chat as the rest of Europe is.

The gold star t**ser award must go to the English airline pilot on 121.5 a few days ago who leapt at the opportunity to indulge in the following "hilarious banter":

("...err Aviance this is Ryanair 123")
"...go ahead..."
("...Ryanair 123 on the ground at '53 no special passengers etc.")
"..well that's all very interesting but you are ON GUARD!"

:yuk: A simple mistake by one pilot leads to an idiot exarcebating the incorrect use of air time.

[Bertie Thruster]

although under no remit to do so...... I keep it dialled on my box 2

Ditto!

Old habits die hard!

[LH2]

Any idea why more airfields aren't VDF equipped in the UK?

In the continent, most ATC frequencies seem to have the capability, so if one wants to practise PAN / QDM, etc., one does it on the frequency in use. Similarly, if one is going down, one does not have to fiddle with the radios to tune into 121.5. I understand the difference between a single QDR and a triangulated fix and the implications thereof, but I wonder if it makes any significant difference to the outcome these days.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Any idea why more airfields aren't VDF equipped in the UK?>>

Cost? D/F was removed from Heathrow many, many years ago, prior to which is was available on all the approach control frequencies. It was a great help before SSR because it gave controllers a hint where to look on the screen when an aircraft called. With the advent of SSR it was decided that D/F was no longer necessary... and we all missed it badly. (At least, I think that was the reason)

[ShyTorque]

This can naturally lead to complacency when it comes to monitoring responsibilities by the pilot.


What does this statement mean?

The use of 121.5 for practice pans is indeed approved legally but rather out of touch with the point these days.

This one, too?

[stansdead]

Look guys, just face it.

We all know that 121.5 is the USA sports results channel.

Anyone know the Yankees vs Dodgers score????:ugh:

[Kiltie]

Shytorque -

Because when 121.5 is constantly buzzing with non-emergency transmissions I for one am guilty of deselecting it to give my ears a rest and forgetting to reselect.

The point of 121.5 is in my opinion to leave the frequency absolutely clear for genuine emergency transmissions. Since some genuine calls may be in remote areas, we stand a good chance of hearing them at altitude and be able to provide a relay to D&D. Practice useage of 121.5 could block out someone in dire need of assistance.

[Maude Charlee]

Funny, but it only seems to be a problem in the 'angry' south of the country. Always interesting how quickly the self-appointed frequency police leap onto 121.5 to yell "You're on guard!" when their primary task ought to be monitoring their assigned ATC frequency, especially in and around the busiest airspace in the country. Monitoring 121.5 should be a very low low priority task in relation to operating your own a/c safely.

[tired-flyboy]

But you have to remember that it isn't the pilots that get to practice on 121.5.

How do you think the D&D controllers get a license - they practice on it.

So all those pilots who say that 121.5 shouldn't be used - how would you feel if the one day that you really needed it, the controller was all a fluster!

D&D at Scottish Mil frequently use 121.5 for DF training fixes as (and i stand to be corrected) don't have a fancy locator like Swanwick.

Those guys and gals do it the old fashioned way with DF fixes form land stations and manual plotting!

[Kiltie]

I'm not for one minute suggesting each party shouldn't practice! But why block the emergency frequency to do it?

Heathrow Director posted "Irrespective of what is written, sheer commonsense suggests that an immediate QSY to another frequency would be better than clogging up the real emergency channel. "

:D

MaudeCharlee I agree with your point. I can't stand guard police either. They make the situation worse!

[kwachon]

Mandatory for us in the gulf to keep 121.5 on box 2, not only for distress but also in case of comms failure on 1, We also are obliged to use it when there is a lost comm situation to re-establish a correct frequency (happens frequently crossing Saudi and flying up the gulf).

[peastlake]

I visted LTCC last year (before the move to Swanick) as part of a very interesting & useful group GA visit. Part of the tour was to drop into the D&D cell for a look around & chat to the two (seemingly bored out of their minds) RAF types running it.

As part of the conversation, we were positivley encouraged to make Practice PAN or Training Fix calls on 121.5 once in a while because "it's good practice for you & it's good practice for us".

Also very interesting to see the rather 1970's equipment used!

[ATCO Fred]

Dear all

This has been done to death before. I used to run safety days for GA pilots where OC D&D would lecture on the role and services available. They positively encouraged the use of 121.5 for PPAN calls because:

1. It aids in their training/currency requirements.
2. It was considered far better that the first time a pilot used 121.5 it was in a controlled none emergency scenario where fluffing it up is not significant rather than do it during a real 'brown trouser moment'!

Ah - a quick search reveals this thread from before:http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=291088&highlight=practice+emergency

AND, this post by Diddle Dee who is obviously a D&D controller.

I think the last line of his post says it all really

I dont intend to get embroiled in a debate about 121.5 usage by GA pilots in the UK. It is a FACT that the huge majority of tx on 121.5 are by CAT. Some points I would like to make.

1. When a pilot mistakenly calls a ground unit on 121.5 & receives a "you're on guard" , you would not believe the amount of times he hears that response as "go ahead" and then launches into his spiel about wheelchairs etc often lasting 20 seconds or so. Surely if he got no reply the penny would drop after a couple of calls? I know that when I tx whether as a controller or when I am flying, if I don’t get a response the first thing I do is check my frequency selection.

2. As for complaints about PP calls made within the UK, sorry I have limited sympathy whilst I can hear pilots whistling, singing, chatting, asking for football scores during the world cup and us being sworn at over 121.5 by CAT etc etc. Sort that nonsense out and my view point would be far more sympathetic.

3. In the congested airspace of the UK we actively encourage GA to call D&D 121.5 when they are lost. Part of humanising 121.5 is allowing pilots to make PP calls so that they are familiar with D&D & how we can help should the need arise. If they do get lost, many pilots now quickly declare that fact early on 121.5... often they are inside CAS & we take action to exit CAS and deconflict with CAT. If they weren’t confident about calling on 121.5, they would spend more time trying to sort themselves out & CAT would be getting unexpeditious recoveries or even go around.

4. As for the suggestion of naming & shaming, when ac tx on 121.5 we get a DF fix on that ac. The DF display sits approx 6 inches away from our radar displays which have all ORCAM squawks callsign code converted i.e. your callsign is displayed on our radar. It takes seconds to identify who is saying what........ Incidentally OC LATCC(Mil) was sat next to me a few minutes ago & he is leaning towards the idea of "naming & shaming".


In the 15 mins or so that this has taken me to write there has been one training fix on 121.5 and 11 CAT transmissions.... make that 13!

DD

[ShyTorque]

Shytorque -

Because when 121.5 is constantly buzzing with non-emergency transmissions I for one am guilty of deselecting it to give my ears a rest and forgetting to reselect.


So the problem isn't really with those using the frequency correctly... why not consider getting something put in your company SOPs?

I'm single pilot these days and so I have to manage both radios all by myself but don't have a problem with remembering to adjust volume levels. I'm constantly using box two for something or other, in addition to my main comms on box one, and therefore constantly checking the squelch and volumes. I often listen to the PP / TF calls out of interest, provided they aren't blocking something on box 1.

As far as usage of 121.5 in the Gulf is concerned; are UK pilots' transmissions reaching that far afield and causing a problem?

[The Nr Fairy]

I seem to recall in the dim and distant says when I was doing my f/w PPL that my instructor (Paul H - hello if you're out there) called London Info first to see if a Practice Pan was ok - i.e. the D&D controllers weren't already dealing with an emergency.

I'll stand ready to be corrected on the technical details, but shouldn't normal radio etiquette mean that the chance of a real emergency being blocked be absolutely minimal, even if the real emergency is being received by an aerial different to a Practice Pan ?

[Diddley Dee]

ATCO Fred

Thank you for pulling that quote up, I really couldn't be bothered to go through it all again
I stand by my previous post with very little to add ......

However a little story from a few days ago.

Someone (CAT) is transmitting on guard so we get the usual chorus of your'e on guard from about 5 other CAT overfliers then one of them decides to call the offending pilot a to$$er...... Shame he was coasting out in an area all on his own beautifully picked out on DF with 100% certanity that it was ABC1234, Glanced at the radar, read of his callsign & reminded him that we have the ability to ID the guard police. He sounded just like a school kid that had been caught doing something he shouldn't have.... hopefully he might refrain from doing it again.

Leave 121.5 for what it is in the UK, a freq for real & PRACTICE emergencies, and before someone says yeah but we hear it miles away outside the UK, well yes I suppose you must because we hear a lot of all the crap that get TX on 121.5 in Europe!

Fly safely

DD

[CAP493]

Mandatory for us in the Gulf to keep 121.5 on box 2, not only for distress but also in case of comms failure on 1...Absolutely, and I can remember an occasion when a Gulf ACC controller actually had to call an errant high-level overflight to inform him that he was jamming one of the ACC's sector VHF frequencies!

It's also understable SOP when flying over most parts of central Africa, in NAT airspace or over the Pacific.

But monitoring 121.5 whilst operating in northern European airspace including, whilst flying in UK airspace? C'mon guys, is this really necessary? I mean, what excatly is the point of the exercise? I've heard of multi-tasking whilst entering the hold at Lambourne or at TOD over BARLU ~ but isn't this taking multi-tasking a wee bit far...?? Since many airlines nowadays prohibit R/T comms even with Company during certain critical stages of the flight, no wonder level busts are still such a serious issue... :hmm: :uhoh:

[Denti]

Practice PAN would be all nice and dandy if you could magically limit the calls so that you can only receive them where they are allowed.

Sadly that is not the case so everytime i fly west of say Dusseldorf i have to select the volume on my second set to 0 or just switch from guard to another frequency. That is clearly not the intended purpose of the guard frequency.

Monitoring guard is certainly a good idea, even in europe. I have often monitored that ATC tried to reach a flight there or the other way round. In my company it is a requirement except to get an ATIS or call OPS, especially since 9/11 to prevent an intercept which could happen very fast indeed if you are not able to respond to a guard call.

[Lurking123]

There was a time you chaps never monitored guard. Now we have this perception that monitoring 121.5 will stop interceptions. Pants. It may well help stop an interception but, if you were on the right freq to start with.......

Anyway, as someone else has already hinted, the majority of ATC freqs over Europe (certainly NW Europe and the UK) are busy so if a pilot is tootling along at FL280 and doesn't hear any ATC for a few minutes its a pretty fair bet that he needs to do something with his radios.

Maybe D&D need to do another CAA survey? ISTR that last time the discoverd that about 75% of noise on 121.5 was idle chit chat. There is also a report where an Icelandic aircraft had a freq pigs and flew over half of the UK without talking to anyone. In mitigation, he said he had turned down 121.5 because of the incessant noise generated by practice PANs. The CAA pointed out that, ordinarily, Jimmy GA doesn't do practice PANs at 0400 on a Sunday morning.:O

[Kiltie]

What is CAT?

[LH2]

<<Any idea why more airfields aren't VDF equipped in the UK?>>
Cost?

But HD, we have it in, as far as I can ascertain every airfield in France and Spain which has a controller on it for at least part of the time. I resist to believe that the reason for not having VDF would be purely financial :confused:

From my very, very limited experience flying in the UK (not that I have any experience worth mentioning overall), why do I get the impression that ATC in the UK seem to be seriously understaffed, and probably underequipped as well?

What is CAT?

In the context above, Commercial Air Traffic.

[PlasticPig]

ADF is cheap - why would it be difficult/expensive to make a VHF version of a standard aircraft's ADF? Perhaps with a bigger aerial.

[Tail-take-off]

I agree with all the above contibutions regarding the merits of practice pans. They are useful for contollers & student pilots alike. However most airlines these days require the monitoring of 121.5 on the second box predominantly for loss of communication (on box 1) reasons & any non essential use of this frequency is a distraction leading to missed calls on the other box or deselecting box 2 thus negating any benefit from having it tuned. Perhaps the time has come to have a separate frequency for practices. May be they could then be more actively encouraged giving more training to the D&D controllers, additional practices for students & perhaps qualified pilots may feel more able to practice.

[Maude Charlee]

Or how about these highly-trained, well-paid and allegedly intelligent pilots just use this funny little function on the comms box called a volume control. :ugh:

[magpienja]

Must admit the one and only time I have ever used 121.5 for a practice training fix in my microlight, I was very conscious of the nuisance factor for those who must listen out on the freq, I think I would find it annoying having to endure it to often, I for one would be more comfortable with a secondary freq for the purpose.

Nick.

[west lakes]

A technical/cost poser for you though.

NATS appears to have 14 radio sites in the UK equipped for 121.5, to use a second frequency would mean each of these sites would need to be upgraded (new or additional equipment).

Each would then need additional landlines/microwave links back to the two D&D cells. These will come with initial costs and often rental/usage charges

The D&D cells will, possibly, need additional equipment to monitor/control the new frequency and calculate the fix.


Who should pay for all that?

[Lurking123]

Better idea. Mandate UHF boxes in all GA aircraft so they can use the Practice Emergency Training Freq (PETF) of 245.1. Auto-T already exists on that freq. :O Either that or insist all CAT has UHF so they can monitor 243.0.

[PlasticPig]

Better idea. Mandate UHF boxes in all GA aircraft so they can use the Practice Emergency Training Freq (PETF) of 245.1. Auto-T already exists on that freq. Either that or insist all CAT has UHF so they can monitor 243.0.

Oh good Lord no... not more movement to treating GA as mini-airliners...:ooh:

[ShyTorque]

I continue to be amazed that some pilots don't seem to be able to cope with this and seem to be getting this monitoring requirement all round their necks.

If a pilot turns down 121.5 because a transmission on that frequency is interfering with box 1, then they have just been given proof that they do NOT have lost comms on box 1.

Do pilots not routinely check radios by deselecting the squelch and adjusting the volume if required, or does this interfere with the Times crossword?

[Daysleeper]

deselecting the squelch

What's a squelch... seriously its not fitted (757)

[ShyTorque]

I guess that's progress? ;)

[chrisbl]

Is there any evidence that a Training fix or Practice Pan exercise getting in the way of a real emergency? I doubt it.

Is there any evidence of CAT chatter getting in the way of a real emergency?

How many real emergencies have been greeted with "Your on Guard"?

[Maude Charlee]

Exactly. If the Moaning Minnies were to be believed, the countryside would be littered with the smoking wreckage of doomed aircraft unable to transmit their distress because of practice pans. Doesn't seem to have made the news up my way yet. :rolleyes:

[Il Duce]

chrisbl. the answer to your second question is "yes". Three weeks ago whilst London Centre were dealing with a pan, a CAT aircraft started transmitting on 121.5 and when told that he was interrupting an actual emergency, repeated everything he had just transmitted and more.



Amazing! Ten past three this afternoon and D&D have just done a training fix and 3 practise pans for the same aircraft in the space of about 10 minutes and nobody butted in with any complaints.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

As one of the commercial guys monitoring 121.5, I think I have only heard a practice pan once.

Apart from 2 real emergencies, all the rest has been ATC contacting aircraft not responding on the correct channel, passenger PAs, calls to servisair and the guard police.

[The Highlander]

As an ex Distress and diversion Support controller we always welcomed Practice Pans and Training Fixes. It as has been stated on here many times a very useful exercise for both pilot and Controller and his team in D&D. Obviously as stated to in event of a real emergency arising then all Practice or training fixes were ceased.

The Highlander

[TimmoWhakatane]

Quote:
deselecting the squelch
What's a squelch...

Its the sound an aircraft makes when it hits the ground due to the pilot concentrating too much on fiddling with radios :O

[ShyTorque]

Natural selection, or radio selection? If a pilot doesn't have enough mental capacity to cope with the requirements of the job he should stay on the ground.

The big advantage of single crew is that I don't have to listen to distracting whining on the radio. From co-pilots who can't cope, that is. :rolleyes:

[Andy Rylance]

You wait, the Quick Data Recorder will soon come into action and any transmissions on 121.5 will be recorded as a "review" for that pilot....