Balpa membership and BA

[fivegreenlight]

From Balpa;
"We no longer just work within a few selected airlines but now work across 26 BALPA recognised companies and also recruit and organise in many others."

So how many of these members are in BA?

My point is that Balpa have recently become noticably vocal about BA issues ( I wonder why that could be :rolleyes:) but what about the rest of us? Who else feels that Balpa's emphasis needs to reflect more of the issues effecting all of us?

Before anyone posts about the stand being taken effects us all etc - I realise that and support Balpa and the BA members. However if they where as vocal about the security issues and ID cards etc.........

If Balpa returns to being the BALinePilotsAssociation it could well see those membership numbers drop.

Tin hat on and diving for cover

[tightcircuit]

5 Greens,

I don't think you need to dive for cover, your points are very valid. Balpa should represent all of its members not just those who work for BA. Recent developments in BALPA are very disturbing and it seems that the union is retreating from the enlightened attituded developed over many years to the darkness of 1970s thinking. This cannot be good for anyone. If BA want their own union then they should start one of their own not hijack and degrade a respected institution that belongs to many others.

[crewcostundercontrol]

Agree, Just had "The Log" through the door, then delivered a Log while reading "The Log".......ALL BA stuff again nothing about LCC'S again, and when these companies are dealt with in "The Log" I noramly find that they are spoken about from someone who is doing it in a token way.

[delwy]

You will know BALPA is serious about LCCs when it does something for its members in Ryanair. As in something other than talk.

[Mick Stability]

If those nasty BA boys lose their current fight, then every pilot in the UK can look forward to a very bleak horizon. The issue at stake is of such fundamental importance, that the US pilots unions are now aligning themselves with BALPA and arranging joint strategies.

For such unprecedented cooperation to occur, all of the protagonists must have decided that the threat to our profession is so severe, that standing together on a global scale is the only way that we can effectively withstand rapacious and opportunistic corporations such as BA, AA and all the others who will doubtlessly take a leaf from their books.

Forty years ago, the seamen of the British merchant marine did not see the threat that outsourcing posed to them and their careers. Now they barely exist, their jobs being done by legions of Phillipinos and Indonesians on chicken feed wages and workhouse terms and conditions.

Today we are on the precipice of such magnitude that the transition from Airline Captain to blue collar machine operative will be swift and sure, unless we face up to the threat RIGHT NOW. The Americans have come to us having realised all too late for some that this is a very real possibility. They have offered their expertise, experience, and resources to fight by our sides.

I acknowledge that the BA Longhaul Pilots Association is often seen as too parochial, but they are dealing with some very weighty issues of fundamental importance to us all. BA has 3000 pilots in BALPA, all paying their 1% of their pots of gold.

BALPA are ensuring that we ALL have a future. Please cut them some slack.:ok:

[Robin McHood]

Mick Stability has the right of it. As one of those Merchant Seamen he refers to, I know we woke up too late to the real threat. Our industry doesn't exist any more. I've worked for foreign companies for the last thirty years with most of my crews barely trained Indonesian/Filipino etc relying upon the training and experience of a few of us 'round-eyes' to keep everyone out of trouble.

The hilarious thing is that we are all about to retire or die and the shipping companies are bemoaning the lack of skilled seafarers like it was nothing to do with them in the first place!

So guys n gals, take a lesson from us and stick together regardless of company or nationality because if you don't they will screw you ALL royally

[the heavy heavy]

Oh the irony of it all!

Mr talentless bottom feeder can't pass an interview with anybody prepared to pay for there training so in a pathetic bid to achieve his 'dream' of being a below average stick monkey works for peanuts doing jobs that anyone with an ounce of ability or pride would refuse to contmplate, no doubt paying for there own type ratings and line training and thus creating the new model army of low hours pilots that are the wet dreams of the mol's and ww's of the world.

Suddenly having viewed the rise of the self improved wannabee jet pilot as an irrelavence big bad BA pilots find themselves under attack from not only their CEO but said bottom feeders who will do anything to fly a crappy 757 on a route that is beyond boredom and for buttons. Theese arrogant MF's decide to strike to protect their financial futures and the t&c's that all compete for. How dare they!

So the bottom feeder, concerned that his dec command at OS has been scuppered now complains that the union should he pushing for lower salary levels, reduced recruitment standards and work patterns that are unsustainable and frankly in the long term dangerous. But off course FO gypsy unemployable pilot is the new management gold standard and real union action an unthinkable because their MBA course's have shown them that unions collapse when confronted.

So imagine the managements suprise and the bottom feeders distress when we actually say no. I won't let you give my job away and if you want to work for my company under the tailfin I had to earn the right to drive then I expect you to be up to the standards I have to reach.

Balpa's victory will be a victory for all in the industry except the greedy managers and the untalented worthless wannabees who sowed the seeds of that greed.

[Caudillo]

work patterns that are unsustainable

We are talking bidline aren't we?

Oh the irony of it all!

[Bill of the Hamptons]

Perhaps the "HH" is a BA pilot in which case he is a "tosser", the vast majority are not in my experience, but more likely an "agent provocateur" from so called "management". Fair enough having a go at management but all pilots "have earned their wings" and often paid dearly for them, deserve a good living and the support of BALPA if they are members and pay their dues. It is time for all pilots to stick together for their mutual benefit , "Together you will win, divided you will certainly fail"

[Hand Solo]

To succinctly answer 5greenlights, the answer is that less than 50% of BALPA members are BA pilots. Perhaps the reason BA have a higher profile is that they have the most vocal and active company council of any airline in the UK.

[the heavy heavy]

claudillo

no OS will not be flown under bidline rules. 3 back to back east coasts a month 2 man!

spunky monkey

my first job had HUD not FMC and flew supersonic at low level. I worked pretty had to get on the ladder as well. My last 3 years where spent helping others achieve the 'dream' that is being combat ready on a fighter sqn. never been called an arrogant clown before but have quite a few guys buy me pints down route in thanks for helping them out in hard times. I also have to buy quite a few myself. i understand perfectly that as a group we are stonger and better and can achieve more when we work together.

working hard to get on the ladder is not the same as spending daddys money to buy a frozen atpl and then pay for a type rating and work for free. I have plenty of respect for the efforts that peope go to to become pilots. undercutting and working for free only earns my contempt.

erosion of t&c's didn't happen on my watch and i'm doing everything i can to stop it now.

bill of the hamptons

tosser, many thanks. I am a real living and breathing nigel.

its pilots who bought there wings and are willing to work for free that are one of the root causes of the problem here. they are every bit as guilty as the management. i'm afraid it takes a bit more than passing an irt in a light twin for me to give my respect and support to those pilots who undermine the entire funded ab-initio idea with their willingness to pay or their own training. merit and talent used to be the path to wings (still is for the few), now its the ability to raise the cash to pay for the training.

whats the pass rate at oxford? whats the pass rate at cranwell/valley? of course talent and abilty got nothing to do with it when you have cash and a poor standard to attain in the first place. but thats off message anyway. our strike is about the future for all pilots. if you are too stupid to see it then thats your problem. no doubt it's the reason your bleating about BA pilots taking action and using their union rather than fighting whatever issues you have.

Hand Solo

spot on

[Dan D'air]

Perhaps the "HH" is a BA pilot but more likely an "agent provocateur" from so called "management"

HH is definitely not an ex RN pilot. He can't spell "their" properly. A small point perhaps, but an important one I feel.

There, there, there. Back to the team-building exercises HH.

[fivegreenlight]

Hands, your possibly correct regarding the vocal council. However I think it has more to do with the recent change in chairman. Balpa has in recent years been viewed as a professional organisation rather than just a union and I fear this is rapidly going to change.

I would like to reiterate, I fully support BA's fight and agree it is vital not to let BA managment have their way. But Balpa needs to realise the rest of the members have just as pressing concerns, some that effect everyone of us.

If they put as much publicity and effort into getting aircrew recognised as part of the security solution rather than as potential terrorists we would all benefit.:ugh:

[the heavy heavy]

dan d'air,

not ex RN but they have my total respect.

victim of a comphrehensive education i'm afraid, spelling/typing never been my forte!

[Dan D'air]

HH, Good Man!!

Always fun to have a dig at the light blue, ex or not. Friday afternoon boredom downroute so... blue touchpaper, tin hat retire!

Cheers, DD. :O:O:}:}:E:E

[wobble2plank]

The most bizzare thing is that, by fighting the totally incompetent management of BA (as proven over the T5 cost cutting debacle) and preventing them from destroying a national carriers terms and conditions BALPA IS protecting the jobs of the LCC's and every other pilot wishing to earn a crust in the UK industry!

If the T's & C's of a national carrier get cut to the bone and all of the other management muppets see there is no reason for the overpaid stick monkies to climb the greasy pole as there are no better T's & C's out there how long will the overall decline take?????

Progress to higher wages and better conditions props up the conditions down stream as well! So quit whining!

(Also had to work bl**dy hard to get where I am today, including the low level stuff :} and am not about to let some Irish git pi$$ it away whilst pocketing his, not inconsiderable, payoff)

[doo]

Issues at my airline?
BALPA negotiators too busy on previous occasion to make it (as I understand), cc left with not very much active support?

[the heavy heavy]

wobble2plank,

well said.

it's been said before but would people rush to be treated by the cheapest doctors trained at the worst universities at hospitals that had no interest other than profit?

would you trust your life to a doctor who had learned the 'hard way' and was working long hours for little or no pay because it was his dream rather than because he was good at it and it meant his manager would get a bigger bonus if he kept staff costs down!

again i'm taking this off thread, bad habit i know.

BA plane, BA pilot = more well paid jobs for EVERYBODY

[ssschmokin1]

heavy heavy

your arrogance astounds me in your assumption that pilots in LCCs are automatically sub standard compared to pilots who were lucky enough to be funded for their training.

Just a couple of examples to hole your throry below the waterline - what of pilots who come to flying a little later in life, pass the relevant selection tests at an airline that sponsores and hires direct entries, and are then told 'sorry old chap, we don't take anyone onto xtype who is over 30' so we don't have a slot for you... this one happened to me.

Or, maybe there were no funded cadetships going due to the lack of recruitment when I was trying to get in to flight training. Again this happened to me and once the airlines started recruiting again I was age barred.

So what choice - give up and just worship sky gods such as yourself from afar, wistfully flying a desk for the rest of my miserable existance, or work my b@@@@@@s off to save up the money to buy training and 8 years later get a job with a LCC having gone through exactly the same training course that a BA pilot goes through.

Why don't you get off your high horse and realize that the biggest threat to pilot T&C is an Irish fella who is expert at recruiting pilots from all over to fly his fleet at salary levels that are not great, because they are desperate for a job. Many don't stay long, and many came from some of your beloved high fare high wage cadet sponsoring airlines after they went bust. However, because BALPA is far too BA centric, there is frightening inertia in getting in a union to address the situation, and meanwhile his management tactics are being exported wholesale. Where do think the inspiration for OS came from in the first place....

Rather then denigrating LCC pilots, why don't you try embracing them with a little support, by pushing BALPA to commit to what will be an industry defining scrap with the Irish fella.....

[wobble2plank]

It's a sad state when we start bitching at each other whilst our erstwhile management are sniggering into their briefcases!

I, personally, have absolutely nothing against anyone who has put their money on the line and had the balls to quit everything and fund themselves. Good on you for having the courage of your own convictions to do so. :ok:

I do have a problem with the blank faced, pencil pushing accountants who shove cost savings based on what they can bleed out of those who are desperate for a job up the fat cat management ar$e! They will run everything on the bottom line. Experience counts for nothing and the cheaper the better. The main thing that stems the flow is the cost of re-training those to take the place of the ones who have seen the scam for what it is and take their hard earned experience elsewhere for better returns. Imagine this scenario if that option to move up the ladder is removed! 'Tis not a pretty sight! To exploit the workers, who have to feed families, for a quick profit should have died out with the mills!

Stop the degradation now and take a stand. If it won't come from those joining and paying for basic training requirements (and lets face it, they are the ones who can least afford to rock the boat!) then it must come from those that can afford it and attempt to preserve our professions status.

Have fun

W2P
:ok:

[the heavy heavy]

ssschmokin1,

firstly, anybody who passed a selction process to have their flying training paid for by either the RAF/RN/Army was NOT lucky. i've got painful news for you my friend that by the time a military pilot earns the right to stand in the bar wearing his wings and shooting the breeze he has earned that right by skill and talen,m period. you might want to believe that he is not any better than you but the stats and my experience would seem to suggest otherwise. if it wasn't about talent the RAF would just take the first 100 applications and train them to fly helicopters in afghanistan, fast jets in iraq and drop food and paras out the back of hercs after flying on nvgs at low level. they don't and we will never know if you could becaue you either failed the interview or didn't go because you don't believe in having a military. either way given how 'badly' you wanted to fly you didn't want to take the hardest way to a set of wings.

secondly, flying with BA cadets for the last 8 years only reinforces that whatever else is wrong with BA they know how to recruit the right people to train and put in a 757 cockpit with 200hrs exp. again given the numbers that apply and the numbers that got trained the numbers suggest that theese individuals also are not LUCKY just talented. maybee you need to believe that its luck that delivered the silver spoons but having worked for the prestwick grads who are now 744 skippers i can assure they got where they are by talent.

thirdly, i have many friends who came up the hard way. i respect them without reservation and enjoy flying with them immensly. there is a big diff from starting at your local glider club, instructing, and then moving on to the lcc, charters and scheduled airlines than just pitching up at ryan air or wherever and paying for your training and working for peanuts.

finally, i have no doubt you and I would have no problem operating together and having a beer down route having enjoyed a trouble free, crm positive experience. our abilty to judge each others ability secured over a 12 hour flight. our backgrounds a source of interest and a chance to exchange experiences. i have no hang ups with anybody because of who they work for. I assume the best until shown otherwise. where we differ is i refuse to accept that those pilots who have bought there postions can blame everybody else for state of the industry and the nose-dive to poor t&c's. I joined the RAF without having a clue what the pay was. anybody who adopts the same attitude towards a career in civil aviation and then works at a rate that undermines all our conditions has nothing but my contempt.

we CANNOT get enough pilots of sufficient standard at interview at BA, we are looking at starting up the cadet courses again as a result. the available pool of young/late start pilots is not up to scratch. this is a fact! you may celebrate the fact that people want to bankrupt themselves to fly but i think it's the fuel in the fire that drives MOL and WW's dream of low cost, MINIMUM standard pilots working harder than is safe to maximise profits. i on the other hand want to see more cadets getting trained, the military expanding and giving the 'lucky' few the most amazing oppurtunity. most of all i want to see everybody who has the hands and brains to do the job well get a chance rather than just those that can pay. i would have not have been able to become a pilot if i'd had to self fund.

off course not everyone who pays for there own course or starts late is not up to scratch. the cityflyer integration at BA is the perfect example. the influx of theese guys to the 744 brought a crop of excellent talented young guys, many average easy going opertators and those that would never have passed an interview anywhere else! again no doubt you will call this arrogance, i believe that the re-training stats would back me up.

i congratulate your achievment, if you worked for free or paid for your type rating then we will have to differ on what we feel the impact of that action has had on the ambitions of airline ceos.

[Capot]

he has earned that right by skill and talent

Absolutely, old boy, never doubted it.

But without, how much, say £500,000 of taxpayers' funds he/she would still be flipping burgers. So credit where credit's due, please; the money is not begrudged, but it's still about the best piece of good luck he/she will ever have, and I can't see the problem with acknowledging it.

[Dan D'air]

£500,000 of taxpayers' funds

It costs just short of seven million to train an operational, deployable FJ mate these days. Euro lottery ticket for tonight anyone?

[wobble2plank]

Hmmm, helluva lot of luck to get through the application process, pass the interview, pass the aircrew selection, get through basic officer training, survive grading, pass elementary flying training, basic flying training, operational flying training, front line flying training, standards flight year after year, simulator checks (full operation environment and tactics) every year, IRT (flown in aircraft with real failures !!!).

Oh, and on the basic officer training, grading, EFT, BFT, OFT it is generally one shot only then you're out. Not very luvvie duvvie! But then, gotta stretch that lucky £500,000 :}

Thread creep, sorry

:E

[Finger Bob]

BA has strong Balpa membership. Those members have come from various sources such as LCC's, the military and straight out of flying school. Many of us have seem the impact of weak union membership in previous companies.

Balpa is only as strong as it's members. Your Company Council is elected by you. Yes, complain that it isn't working but also be prepared to do something about it.

Lets all drive up Terms and Conditions!

[DFC]

the heavy heavy,

From reading your posts I can detect an absolute love for WW.

You are totally in love with the way that he got to where he is today - pilot selection at Aer Lingus, Cadet programme, training paid for by the Tax payer, promotion and elevation to the ranks of earning the big bucks and keeping well clear of the pond life.

There can be no other ideal manager for a man such as yourself.

Not only that but he is Irish.

You scored 10 out of 10 in your criteria when he got the job at BA :}

Regards

DFC

[the heavy heavy]

touche

yes i am in fact in love with willy, only slight less than with myself:)

[overstress]

There really are some rissoles on this forum. We (and I mean BA pilots from whatever background) are constantly told how lucky we are, and if we had the temerity to give 8/12/16 years of service to HMQ in exchange for being paid to be taught to fly, we are even luckier.

Well I have news for you wind-up merchants. I, like my contemporaries, have made my own luck. Those of us who have slogged our guts out to achieve high standards care little to see the profession debased and undermined by the petty and small minded. Those who work for free are out of their minds IMO.

You can be sure that BA pilots will defend their terms and conditions against the current crop of "here today, and if I may say so, gone tomorrow" management. It would be quite nice to think that we had the unanimous support of our fellow professionals, but some here seem not capable of grasping the basic issue.

[Bill of the Hamptons]

"yes i am in fact in love with willy, only slight less than with myself:)"

Poor old HH, good job he likes himself (and Willie) as I doubt too many others do.

He does not even have enough common sense to realise that by denigrating the ability of some of his fellow pilots, who may not have quite the same "superb level of flying skills or personal charm", but can do their job perfectly well, he is calling into question the "worth" of all pilots including "wunderkind" such as himself.

The millions of pounds of tax payers money may have taught HH how to loop the loop and blow the crap out of people but not surprisingly perhaps it apparently failed to teach him any respect for others.

By the way, didn't Prince William just get his RAF wings after a whole 4 months training? Now to be fair, William is not a total numbnut like his old man but would hardly qualify as one of the "best and brightest" so perhaps HH might not be superman after all?

[the heavy heavy]

bill,

You can teach a monkey to fly, I believe NASA did. If you believe that the ability to fly an airliner in normals ops is demanding then fair enough. I tend to believe that its a good idea to have the best people money can buy in the right seats for when the holy sh$t day comes along. Sioux city, the SAS md80, the ba Lagos flight all spring to mind. U appear to have missed my point that the present day managers armed with the safety stats of the modern jet are now so confident that a monkey can do it they have decided they can afford to hire the cheapest and not the best pilot. Im old fashioned, I'd rather be flown by people I trust. Happily jump on an easy flight, wouldn't touch a Ryan air one. Does that clear it up for u?

As for my popularity, im pretty happy that I get on with most of the people I meet and the last 18 years of checks and course's have pretty much confirmed I'm a pretty average bloke amongst a group of pretty talented operators. Excuse me if this is arrogant but Ive been judged by the hardest task masters in the business and not been found wanting, well not often. I'll stop flying when I'm dumb enough to believe I've stopped learning. Im certainly not a superstar, I do know a few though, but I've never paid for a minutes flying. I've had 2 interviews and got 2 jobs. I've trained with men who had talent in abundance and died because they made mistakes. I learned everybody makes mistakes and some of us get lucky and live to learn from them. I've been trained by men whose abilities and conviction were inspiring. At no time did I find myself in a cockpit that I hadn't worked my bollix off to get into on merit, never had to pay a bribe to sit there.

So that all said I, like you, have earned my right to an opinion. You may think its arrogant to want to work with those that have the aptitude and ability regardless of financial resources. I think its sad that you seem to have no idea of the standards and ideals those who made flying a profession strived to achieve.

I refuse to apologise for holding in contempt those that feel that having undermined the principle of fair pay in order to get in cockpits and who now demand balpa spends its energy not fighting for an industry wide line in the sand but for improving the lot of the very pilots that have given ww and mol the evidance that they can demean our position and destroy our futures.

[Bill of the Hamptons]

HH,

From what you say you started your flying with the military and have been around long enough to have had your civil training paid for by your employer.

Today the military is still an option for a few to learn to fly, but for many the "authoritarian" and "Rank" environment would be unacceptable. Unlike in your time the opportunities for sponsorship by airlines is limited or non existant.

So since the self sponsored route is effectively the only route open to becoming a pilot these days your dismissive attitude is not only unjustified, it makes no sense. The willingness of people to show their commitment,by paying their own money, rather than use someone elses, should be lauded.

If you are still flying and have not moved to the "Dark Side" I assume that you must fly with some of these "awful self funded chappies" as there must be increasing numbers at BA. It might hurt your pride, but by definition they are just as "good" as you and there are more of them currently flying for Easy, Ryan or whoever on their way!

The pilots at the other airlines would of course like to have better T&C's but for people like you to consider them as "inferior" and the "enemy" rather than the Management suits the latter perfectly. Rather than denegrate them it would be better to show solidarity, with a view to trying to improve conditions across the board. As others have pointed out, if the conditions at BA deteriorate then this will affect pilots elsewhere. Of course it would be equally true that if conditions improved elsewhere then they would at BA also. Time to recognise and know your enemy and as far as you can act together to overcome him.

By the way, as a person who appears to have an aversion to people paying their own way, could I be impertinent and ask if you are amongst the 10% or so of BA pilots who are happy to freeload by not belonging to BALPA?

[king surf]

Never had to pay a bribe to sit there!! What are you suggesting HH??
If BA pilots want our support do not imply that the rest of us have bribed our way into flying.:=

[Right Engine]

BA's training is not as impressive as we (BA pilots) would like to think. I believe that our recruitment is robust and we tend to set a minimum standard that sometimes causes 'shortages of suitability', but our training community have become slowly wedded to management. Senior positions within the training community tend to be managers or trainers who are keenest to become managers (with notable exceptions). The result is that the overall 'ethos' within BA has been one of risk management rather than airmanship. 'Airmanship' was even outlawed by training as an expression of overall ability a few years back!

Where the misconceptions lie within the non-BA UK flying community is the belief that BA pilots are arrogant or even think themselves superior to others. They garner this impression from our conversations with ATCO's, which often are to the say the least, 'assertive' in nature. From our side of the cockpit door, we are gagged by the industries most limiting SOP's that are formulated from the "Ministry of Trend Analysis".

SESMA (Trend Analysis) has caused the outlawing of Manual Throttles on the Airbus. The insistence of Gear Down at 2000' (Only changed recently on the basis of fuel useage). The list is very long. Most are sensible gates. Some are not.

We are governed by Risk Analysis first, Airmanship second and I hope that we differ from other UK pilots because of that. I would contest that our priorities, for a company our size, are in the right order. Where we seem to lack 'skill' is some of our community find it difficult to put subtly, our more restrictive SOP's within the context of the flying environment to other pilots and ATCO's!

The Heavy Heavy

I sometimes think that one of the main reasons for our disfunctional relationship with our managers is because at the moment, the BACC consists mainly of non-ex-military and management is mainly ex-military.

[puddle-jumper2]

Never had to pay a bribe to sit there

Nope, me neither.

Had to work as a tea boy in a tool shop :{ and a baggage loader to pay for the 'self improver' route...... never applied to the RAF or BA :sad:

Guess that makes me inferior then:ugh:

Bill,

Of course it would be equally true that if conditions improved elsewhere then they would at BA also.

Absolutely true, there is indeed a flip side to the coin that BALPA have been ignoring for years. Unfortunately it's now coming back to haunt them.

[757_Driver]

Blimey - why can't some people accept that just because some of us took different routes - doesn't make us any 'better' or 'worse'.

I guess HH must hate me - after all I'm self sponsored - not 'daddys' money, but the product of 15 years hard work in a professional career and some property development. I also didn't fly pointy things very fast, I didn't fail selection - I never applied, not what I wanted to do back then, I guess that makes me a bad pilot then.
I didn't get sponsored as there was no sponsorship available in the recession of the 90's. When BA re-introduced sponsorship, I applied at the ripe old age of 29. "sorry old boy, to old".
Yes I paid for my training, but I also worked hard, passed assesments and made my own luck.
I've got utter respect for anyone who gets the grade to do this job, but lets not pretend that some of us are superior, just because you were lucky enough to get sponsored training. And yes it was luck - sure you had to pass assesments and kudos to you for that, but it was luck that you were the right age in the right economic circumstances.

[M.Mouse]

Failed to notice any strike ballot over that - or was that only short haul where as this is the LONG HAUL holy cow!

Nice shot from the hip.

If you cannot be bothered to research the history then I for one cannot be bothered to explain.

[fivegreenlight]

HH, if you want a thread about how military pilots are better and BA pilots better then start your own thread.
Just to enlighten you there are many extremely capable pilots some exmil some pure civ background working in the other airlines.

In the mean time this is about the direction Balpa is going, NOT about BA:rolleyes:

PS. I used to train EFT and I've seen your type before, I know exactly which drop file to put you in. Go figure.

Now I'll happily continue that argument in your own thread....

[Sleeve Wing]

Fascinating !
All this talk about who's good and who's bad.

We've ALL had to work bl**dy hard (despite what the average Joe Public thinks when he hears how much or how little we earn)
Doesn't matter whether we're ex-mil, Hamster, Prestwick, CTC or the long route from the local aero club.

Surprisingly some of the best "pairs of hands" I've ever come across are the ones who have started as a "chock" at the local airfield. They're in fact the ones who have worked the hardest.

Since when did sitting on autopilot at treetop, doing 500+kts, with matey in the back telling you where to go, qualify one to be an ace airline pilot ?

Come on, guys, we're all in the same boat. Take the blinkers off and support each other.

Rgds,
Sleeve. (Treetop,500+kts,single seat,no autopilot, oh, and a carefully folded half mil map.)

[Tinytim]

Nauseating arrogance from HH. Look forward to you answering if you are a paid up Balpa member......The principle of collective representation and surrendering to collective will never rests easily on you self obsessed sky gods in my experience.

In the meantime and, back to topic, I have to say that this months Log gives the impression that Balpa has only one issue in focus. What is more worrying is the appraisal by PN John Moore which clearly alludes to the fact that the very existence of Balpa is at stake as a result of this action.

[MaximumPete]

I entirely agree with Sleeve Wing.

I just wonder how much talent has been lost due to the policies of some of the major players.

MP;)

[the heavy heavy]

Fully paid up balpa member and will happily strike.

Pretty obvious which drop file I went in!

Didn't have tfr

Good to see nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions. Off course the self sponsored tre/ line trained pilot had in no way encouraged managers to degrade t&c's for all. Just like drunk drivers are really just let down by the barman that serve them. For the benefit if doubt my 'contempt' is for the small number of pilots who are paying airlines to train them. If paying for line training isn't as good as bribing ur way to a job what us? I'm sure that selection is done on merit.

I wholly agree about the sentiments of ba trg dept. My fleet has lost great ex managers, ex Raf and civvies, to be replaced by company men and an ethos exactly as descibed.

I wholly agree that as pilots unity within companys is essential. In my short time with BA I've been shocked at the level of envy and hate that the rest of the civil world has for us. No doubt you will say its because of opinions like mine. I've got mates in every major airline in the uk and have never felt superior to any of them because of where I worked. Then again none of them paid for their line trg. So I tend only to post on pp when somebody outwith ba Slags us off. This thread started because of the usual ba/balpa whining. I apologise for taking it off thread.

Finally I wish you all good luck in driving up your t&c's. Hate me and my type or not but if we lose this fight we will all pay.

[Captain Correlli]

Be a pity if the thread degenerated into a Mil / Civ argument again - although the refrain that starts:

"I don't know but I've been told.....Navy wings are made of gold..."

has always worked for me!:D:oh:

However, the point remains that different people make their choices and achieve a level of competence adequate for the job, and depending on the employer's training department, far more than that.
I think that the BALPA stance is in many ways accurate, and the comparison to the British Merchant Marine is accurate in very many respects. The problem is presentational. 'Pickets with Porsches', rightly or wrongly, is never going to win support. Personnel from a wide range of companies who have been shafted by BA management, (Dan, GSS, BACX etc etc) are unlikely to ever feel warm fuzzy feelings towards BA, particularly if they have met an arrogant 'me-first' Nigel who has apparently pinched their seat! Equally, people using emotive and rabblerousing generalisations about BA pilots cannot be too surprised if they get back similar in return.
The bottom line is that the Industry does not really permit a collective of pilots, and pilots by their nature are mainly 'me first' individuals. Humans are too, when you get right down to it. A normal human emotion is envy, be it of better Ts & Cs or whatever. BA pilots are no better, no worse, statistically than other group of pilots There, I've said it. :O They do the same checks, they achieve the same standard, so it's a sine qua non that any extra money they get is because they have a strong union, not because they're better polers! (And I was a trainer with BACX, and I used to do their L/OPCs. Perfectly adequate, some dunces, no more stars than anyone else.)
Flying is pretty much a humdrum game, the systems are so reliable that there is a whole generation of "The children of the magenta line" out there - fortunately the kit works more often than not. It's no surprise that most disasters are Eastern or Third world outfits, because no civil airline training takes you to the corners of the envelope explored by military training. Hence, when the going gets really really rough, the aircraft usually crashes and everyone dies. Exceptions being the BA 744 where the PF was ex mil and the DHL Bus that got totalled by the SAM.

Anyway, back to the point - unless UK pilots, and eventually all Western pilots stick together, the Western managements will stick it to the pilots. It's as reall as fish 'n chips.
The pilots will NOT stick together, hence Ts and Cs will slide UNTIL the inevitable major accident in Western Europe. :eek:

Face facts boys. Willie may get the push, but a version of OS will happen, absolutely no doubt about it. Eastern European pilots will continue to happen, wasn't that JAR licence SUCH a good idea......

"I don't know but it's been said - Air Force Wings are made of lead...."

[tocamak]

Seems to have drifted off topic a bit. BA has such a big presence within Balpa that it is hardly surprising that they are fairly high profile especially when something like this comes up. Others will feel agrieved because they only see the ivory tower aspect of it all and actually wouldn't mind if those rich chaps (no gender bias to be implied!) living the high life as described in the Daily Mail were brought down to earth. I actually support the BA members in their current predicament but it did grate somewhat when such a big thing was made of the limits on pension accrual and the campaign run by Balpa on this. This was made a little harder to take in when the BA members had quite happily sold new entrants down the line with regards pension membership.

[Tandemrotor]

Ignoring all the usual cul-de-sacs which crop up when the terms BA and BALPA are mentioned in the same breath!

It seems to me to be glaringly obvious that the reason BA pilots enjoy such (relatively) good T&Cs, is NOT because we ever claim to be better pilots than anyone else, (We aren't - though others have said to me we occupy a narrower 'spread' of ability) but purely because union representation is extraordinarily strong within the company. I don't know the figures, but I would be very surprised if membership didn't run to around 96%?

This level of representation enables those that negotiate on our behalf to negotiate from a position of strength. Another company that I believe have traditionally enjoyed high levels of BALPA membership is Britannia, and it's newer incarnation. Also a company with very good levels of remuneration!

Coincidence???

It always saddens me when people working for companies with low levels of membership, or inadequate 'Company Councils', feel pilots from other companies should take up the 'cudgels' on their behalf! Normally when, for a variety of reasons, they are simply incapable of taking responsibility for their own situations.

Since BA pilots contribute well over half the total contributions to BALPA, the question that should be asked here, is not: 'What have BA pilots ever done for us? - I'm going to leave!'

The question for BA pilots should be, what does BALPA, and it's association with other Airline CCs do for us!!

Why don't BA pilots do, as has been suggested, simply set up the British Airways Airline Pilots Association! What would we lose?

Be careful what you wish for guys, there are many possible outcomes here that could break this union. Amongst these is, animosity from the pilots of other airlines.

BA pilots can easily form a union of their own. It may even be better for us. Is that really what you want?

[the heavy heavy]

tandem,

nail on head! :ok:

[Bill of the Hamptons]

Good to see HH is a fully paid up member of BALPA and from his more recent postings not the narcissist he at first appeared.

Narcissism is a prerequisite for climbing to the top of any greasy pole so no need to psychoanalyse Willie, Broughton et al. A touch of sadism also does not go amiss, but inflicting pain on others is one thing, these people are seldom massachists and in fact abhor any pain being inflicted on them because they "just don't deserve it". ( There is of course always the exception to the rule e.g "Bad Mad Max " Moseley!)

Willie, Broughton et al have put on a brave face upto now over T5 and other failings but inside they will be hurting because of the humiliation, even if of course it "is due to the shortcomings of other lesser mortals".
A downgrading by Standard and Poors won't help their mood and self esteem because it lessens them in the eyes of the only ones they "care" about, the suits in the city.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/04/19/cnba119.xml

In this situation it is almost inconceivable that Willie/ The Board will countenance a strike by the pilots and suffer added humiliation, but whether or not a strike takes place, when the management have "lost" it will be important that BALPA trumpet their success so that pilots in other organisations see the benefit of BALPA membership and of standing together for the mutual benefit of all.

[Dick Deadeye]

At last!

Thank you TR for stating the blindingly obvious to those who don't want to hear it!

glaringly obvious that the reason BA pilots enjoy such (relatively) good T&Cs, is - purely because union representation is extraordinarily strong within the company

Spot on!

This level of representation enables those that negotiate on our behalf to negotiate from a position of strength.

Spot on!

It always saddens me when people working for companies with low levels of membership, or inadequate 'Company Councils', feel pilots from other companies should take up the 'cudgels' on their behalf!

Entirely in keeping with the general outlook on life some of these pilots have.

Nothing is their responsibility, everyone else should be looking after their interests, whilst they keep their heads down and whinge from the safety of anonymous aviation forums.

Normally when, for a variety of reasons, they are simply incapable of taking responsibility for their own situations.

Too lily-livered in many cases, too afraid they might upset someone important and damage their career prospects in their airline. Much easier to blame those nasty BA pilots for all their troubles!

Why don't BA pilots do, as has been suggested, simply set up the British Airways Airline Pilots Association!

That was my fervent wish, during most of my time in BA.

Guys, in case you don't get it, if your T & Cs aren't as good as you want, YOU need to do something about it, other than whinging on about BALPA and BA pilots. Yes, you are entitled to help and support from BALPA, but any improvement must start with you!

The plain fact is that those of you who work under substandard conditions are too disorganised, and in some cases too nervous, to do anything about it.

Sorry if the truth hurts!

[ExSp33db1rd]

Slightly off thread, but as a comment on The H.H. ,,,,,,,,
Cor Blimey ! If H.H. was trying to wind you all up he certainly succeeded ! But if he was serious I’m sad that members of my erstwhile profession are so bitchy and back-stabbing, and I thought pilots like H.H. had long gone with the retiring of the old style North Atlantic Baron, W.W. II bomber pilots, of the early BOAC. But they had at least survived flying a war, so even if unjustifiable, their autocratic behaviour could be understood – a bit.

The Hamble cadets and Oxford graduates that followed my generation (we were largely Nat. Service and Short Service Commission ex-RAF / RN pilots ) were trained for the task that they are now called upon to do, and if they meet the constraints of their final check ride, and subsequent 6 monthly checks, what’s the gripe ? If they don’t, whose at fault in continuing to employ them? Flying a high speed pursuit ship at Mach 2.0 and low level against a ground target has no relevance to being in command of a large 4 eng. passenger jet and meeting the demands of ATC whilst completing a Cat. II ILS ( WAAS / GPS maybe now ? ) approach to O’Hare in a snowstorm.

During my Flt. Nav. training an old style Nav. instructor told me that I would never make a real Navigator until I had achieved a three-wind drift sight reading with the shells coming through the cockpit over the target - I never had to. Every generation has it’s own problems to tackle and must move with the times, and I had to get to grips with INS, something my old Nav. Instr. could never have dreamed of in his wildest moments, but we were aces at crossing the North Atlantic with a sextant - in a 707.

I wouldn’t have the faintest idea what FADEC, or EICAS or other acronyms associated with a Glass Cockpit mean, but I don’t need, and never had, to, present day pilots don’t even know what a GCA, or Radio Range let-down means – but they don’t have to. It’s Horses for Courses, H.H. :)

[fatboy slim]

Wound up by HH - yes.

Unbelievble spoutings from one who, I suspect, still stands in front of the mirror in his grow-bag and gloves and then comes to work to spend the entire of the cruise starting every conversation 'WIWO blah SQN; WIWO blah detachment etc' in case anyone hasn't clocked that he used to do some different flying.

Get over yourself mate. I know and fly with many folk with much more impressive military CVs than you who can accept the industry for what it is and just get on with it.

You're not special - you're one of us. An homogenous mass of bums on seats who perform to the highest of our abilities every day we come to work.

[gatbusdriver]

Dear HH

Just a quick question.

I know of at least two ex-Ryanair pilots who used daddy's money to pay for their course, type rating, and line training. They are now working for BA having got through the DEP selection.

What are your thoughts on those sub standard, T&C eroding bar stewards?

[Hulkomaniac]

Dead Dickeye, and Wobblehead!

Those would have been very accurate posts, and rather relevant were it not for the usual fact that BA pilots, with their selfish, inward turned view of the world fail to recognise the blindingly bleeding factual historical obvious!

In your obsession with your own Ts and Cs - which is undeniably your right - you have directly shafted a number of groups of pilots who have had the misfortune to be brought within or associated with your group. I name Dan Air, GSS, BACX BA Connect, Cityflyer Mk2 as examples. The reason so many of us despise you all as a group is that you fail to embrace any form of broad church theory even when it involves pilots WITHIN YOUR OWN COMPANY, owned by the same shareholders. Worse, you have twisted rules in order to deliberately disadvantage pilots from those groups in order to elevate 'mainline' products.

That is why, although I accept OS is a crude management ploy to reduce pilot costs per se across the Western Industry, you are sneered at for your hypocrisy and the disingenuity of your specious statements about requesting support and trying to pretend this is an "all for one" exercise. I don't recall you making this fuss about Go - presumably that was different?
You condescendingly refer to people being whinging wimps, or being lily livered - yet when you have people flying on the SAME AEROPLANES (at your own insistence), with a start-up, brand new internal company council trying to feel their way, you block and object the slightest thing that might affect your mainline prospects. I wonder what would be said if an experienced skipper behaved like that to a brand new FO? Hardly CRM is it? Hardly united union activity is it? Hardly a united 'broad church' approach from BritishAirwaysLinePilotsAssociation is it?

It is quite quite nauseating to read those two posts, but they exemplify what the rest of UK aviation dislike most about BA.

The question for BA pilots should be, what does BALPA, and it's association with other Airline CCs do for us!!

Quite quite unbelievable. I suggest you DO kn0b off and form your own union, at least then no-one could object to the slanted and biaised view of the world you project. You exemplify all the shortcomings for which you berate Walsh, with those bullying and patronising words.

The plain fact is that those of you who work under substandard conditions are too disorganised, and in some cases too nervous, to do anything about it.

BACX were owned by BA, they were not nervous, or disorganised before they became a fully owned subsidiary - it was the treatment by the BACC (or more accurately the complete lack of advice and assistance, in fact downright opposition) which was responsible for any lack of morale therein, not to mention the subsequent operational and financial mismanagement which terminated the company subsequent to its asset stripping. It might be reasonable not to expect BA pilots and BACC to support, say Easyjet pilots, or Monarch pilots - but to actively oppose and denigrate pilots who FLY BA AEROPLANES ALONGSIDE BA CREWS???????? Incredible! You couldn't make this stuff up.
Perhaps D1ckhead has a point, perhaps no-one should expect help, advice or assistance from BACC and BA pilots, but even accepting that as an argument, it would be helpful if they didn't actively oppose and fight other pilots' aspirations!! It's bad enough having to fight your management, particularly when you are a smaller operator, one does not expect to have to fight one's so called colleagues as well!
The BA treatment of Dan is well recorded. The BA treatment and again, deliberate disadvantagement of GSS pilots "because of our industrial muscle", ie because we can, says all one needs to know.
Fortunately, I know a lot of BA pilots, and the D1ckhead Deadeye and the Wobblehead are not representative of most.
It would be useful to see the IPA come to prominence - perhaps about time we had a union which did NOT include the arrogant, egotistical, bullying, posturing windbags currently represented by BACC.

Wobblehead had the temerity to mention Britannia. You are an @rse sir!!! Britannia management recently explored the loco operation, setting up a 'downmarket' version of Britannia with 737s. Everyone there was on worse Ts and Cs, with no transfer available to BAL mainline. Indeed, Senior FOs from BAL who went across to gain a command took a risk, because they accepted the lowering of their own relative Ts and Cs in order to hopefully progress a career. In BA, doubtless we would have seen tools downed, and more hysterical rants in public and on pprune. Doubtless a lot of toys and cots would have parted company.
The BAL CC was, and is very different (thank god) to its BA counterpart. They worked patiently and thoroughly behind the scenes and eventually achieved the uplift of the Tfly personnel's Ts and Cs, and persuaded management that one single company was a better bet for all. They raised the new operation to identical salary, pension and seniority rights. In BA, the equivalent posturing saw the destruction of the equivalent so-called threat to mainline. Tfly CC have recently again pulled off the positive, by negotiating the current merger with FCA. Thank goodness for all of us they are who they are, and not wearing a BA uniform.

D1ckhead, Wobblehead, you should be ashamed of yourselves - however I believe your rants show you up for exactly what you are, a disgrace to your community, your union and your profession!

[Tandemrotor]

Hulkomaniac

Quick question if I may.

1) What percentage of BACX pilots were balpa members?

2) What percentage of Britannia's new incarnation are BALPA members?

3) How exactly have BA BALPA 'shafted' Cityflyer Mk2?

Thanks.

[Hulkomaniac]

And the relevance???

The BACX thing was a merger of three wholly owned BA subsidiaries. It had just achieved BALPA recognition by the Company, hence the answer to your first point is:

SUFFICIENT!


The answer to your second, as you are probably also well aware is that on startup, Thomsonfly (at CVT) had miniscule specific membership representation, since its pilots came from all over the industry - many as direct entry captains, and direct entry training captains - positions which they retained on the uplift. (remind when that last happened with BA??)
Again, thanks entirely to our BALCC, that membership was raised to its current high level - I don't know the exact figure, nor that of FCA, but the answer is again:

SUFFICIENT!


The difference twixt BA and BAL/TFly (thank God) is that the latter work for everyone within the group, not just the chosen few. Even longer standing issues such as Orion seniority have not been dealt with in the BA fashion. However, it is not traditional for BAL/TFly personnel to descend to the pprune/BA gutters, so I shall leave it - (and you) - at that. I'm quite sure people will make up their own minds.

PS - nearly missed point 3.
I am told about Airbus into LCY, I am told about no payrise for four years, I am told about reminder of scope clauses and mention of downgrade to Dash-8s, I am told about the expiry of the scope agreement in just under two years when the RJ guys/gals are history.....unless of course BACC change their mind and 'help' them with their ambitions to get into mainline.
So yes, I report only what I've been told by ex colleagues who remain within the dead hand of BA. Why don't you ask THEM!!!!

[Tandemrotor]

It always saddens me when people working for companies with low levels of membership, or inadequate 'Company Councils', feel pilots from other companies should take up the 'cudgels' on their behalf! Normally when, for a variety of reasons, they are simply incapable of taking responsibility for their own situations.

Thank you for illustrating my previous post.

I notice you deal in generalities, with no specific information.

No doubt other 'old friends' will come along shortly. Normally with the same abusive attitude.

Edited to add: I notice amongst the other 'hearsay' you mention to 'support' your allegation that BA BALPA are/have 'shafted' Cityflyer Mk2, you mention Airbus into LCY.

The only LCY Airbus I am aware of is the A318s that may fly Transatlantic. Are you suggesting these should be operated by Cityflyer??

[Charizard]

Hey Tanny old boy, not usual to see you supporting a point so well; you perfectly illustrate and support every single point made by the Hulk. And why shouldn't Cityflyer operate the 318 - mainline operate the RJ!

Brilliant post Hulk, right on the money, glad things have worked out for you - pm me and let's talk about TFly recruitment.

[hec7or]

Very, very good post Hulko, put very clearly into words what most of us think anyway and deserves a big pat on the back. Don't forget the franchises either who were stonewalled by these gits.

Charizard

wouldn't bother about Tfly recruitment for a while.

[The Little Prince]

Hulk, you are a 24 carat star! Brilliant, accurate, true. Wish I'd joined TFly.:D

[fivegreenlight]

Hulko, exactly .....:D

[Juan Tugoh]

Of course there is another option for those who believe that BALPA is the BA Line Pilots Association - b****r off and form your own union to look after your T&Cs.

I doubt that will happen though, the basic problem being that BALPA is only as strong and effective as its members within a particular company. That means you. It's far easier to come on to PPrune and slag off BA pilots and BALPA instead of getting off your backsides and doing something effective. The petty jealousies are getting boring. If you don't like BALPA you don't have to be part of it - if you are part of it, then be active within it.:bored:

[delwy]

Deary, deary me. The three pages here make for sad reading. One group of pilots with chips on their shoulder off the subject and fighting with another group of equally opinionated pilots. None of it makes for pretty reading.

Occasionally somebody comes along with a bit of common sense to say something like: It seems to me to be glaringly obvious that the reason BA pilots enjoy such (relatively) good T&Cs, is NOT because we ever claim to be better pilots than anyone else, (We aren't - though others have said to me we occupy a narrower 'spread' of ability) but purely because union representation is extraordinarily strong within the company. I don't know the figures, but I would be very surprised if membership didn't run to around 96%?

Without that kind of unity everybody is screwed. Including those who think that they are bringing down the "fat cats" to their level. (Quite why many pilots don't want to get themselves UP to where the "fat cats" are has always amazed me).

Over in the U.S. of A. yet another group of disgruntled pilots have voted to opt out of ALPA because they did not like the result of a merger proposal for integrating seniority lists. The bitterness generated by this will no doubt go on for decades. In reality it is a battle between two groups of pilots and not between ALPA and two airline managements. ALPA, just as happened with BALPA in the past, will no doubt end up being blamed for not making things right. Which they cannot.

When a group of pilots get together to form an association to protect their collective interests they are only as good as their unity and what they put into looking after their interests. You cannot blame any ALPA for failing to support a bunch of pilots that will not pull together. It is political common sense 101. I would not want my money spent on such idiocy.

You all get what you deserve.

[Captain Correlli]

del -

somebody comes along with a bit of common sense = Tandem Rotor = Oxymoron, (or actually, just the moron)

(Quite why many pilots don't want to get themselves UP to where the "fat cats" are has always amazed me). Many have tried, and been pushed hard back down again by the industrial muscle of BALPA and BACC!!! Read Hulko's post, talk to GSS, Dan, BACX pilots....

When a group of pilots get together to form an association to protect their collective interests they are only as good as their unity and what they put into looking after their interests. Dead right, and the problem is that the relevant group only ever includes mainline BA pilots who have a boundary fence up to prevent any other group joining them.

You all get what you deserve. Dead right again, and I'm sure that BA will get theirs.

Juan -

If you don't like BALPA you don't have to be part of it - if you are part of it, then be active within it. Dead right; but it's difficult when BACC not only won't assist but actively block you, even though, as Hulko says, you work for the same Company!

[Cornflake]

Hulko - what an excellent post. what a brilliant comparison to Britannia and how things should be done and how things could have been done within poor old shafted BACX. :D:D

Don't believe I've ever heard a significant bad word about Thomson, interesting they never seem to get involved in most of these debates - BA could learn a lot from them. Mind you with the leadership BA have, is it any surprise?
(and I mean both Corporate and BACC leadership)

I don't think I've ever seen that twit Tandem as lost for words - he rarely responds to specifics, but I don't believe I've ever seen him as incoherent, worth it just for that alone, ILMAO!! :D:D

[Mike Mercury]

Genuinely sorry to see all this dirty washing aired, but you have to admit, the BA peeps on here really do ask for it.
I think a separate union would be good for them, good for us, and good for the Industry. It might lead to a more harmonious atmosphere all round too, particularly if they had their own, locked forum.

WELL SAID HULKOMANIAC!!!!:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:: ok:

[wobble2plank]

I say Hulkomaniac,

I thought you were having a rant at my old title there :confused:

I was certain I hadn't mentioned Britannia :=

My whole wish in this whole sorry mess is that it can get sorted out and I can get on with my day to day job ferrying people around in an aluminum tube like the vast majority of the professional people in the skies. It is a dark cloud in an otherwise sunny industry.

Lets stop all the cr@p, I'm a BA pilot who flies exactly like any other bloke in an aircraft, sometimes I have a good day, sometimes a bad day. Sometimes a greaser, sometimes a touch firmer and, like all humans,I make mistakes and try to learn from them.

We all want more money for less work, who doesn't? So can we try and preserve what the management want to take from us and pull in the same direction.

All this spleen venting is a total waste of time (though it does make interesting and funny reading at times :E )

[Southernboy]

"It seems to me to be glaringly obvious that the reason BA pilots enjoy such (relatively) good T&Cs, is NOT because we ever claim to be better pilots than anyone else, (We aren't - though others have said to me we occupy a narrower 'spread' of ability) but purely because union representation is extraordinarily strong within the company. I don't know the figures, but I would be very surprised if membership didn't run to around 96%?"

This is undoubtedly true but it's that classic chicken & egg problem. Having been an active CC member I know how hard it is to get pilots to pull together (can't even be a*sed to fill in a questionaire the CC put out, but can bang on in the crew room about what they want) but yes one reason is undoubtedly the perceived BA Bias.

Chris Darke was trying to change that, with some success, but was ousted in a BA Coup. Look what's just happened again, another BA coup.

of course BA pilots provide the lions share of the money (1% of bigger salaries & 96%+ membership) so of course they expect to be heard & they sure are but their CC is well organised & effective. however, we asked for their help on an interrelated matter some years ago & little was forthcoming - not considered in their interests presumably - although what subsequently came about proved that it was. Some of their current troubles may have been eased if they had.

I also remember when one regional carrier was fighting draconian management & BALPA was lobbying parliament over the £1million pension cap. When pointed out that most of my guys would kill for that problem, they could not see the irony. We had one overworked negotiator who performed miracles but where was the weight of the union? Behind BA & the pension issue. It's hard to rev up more membership when pilots see such blatant bias.

[hec7or]

It may also be worth a thought that if Balpa and the BACC can't even get the wholehearted support of the majority of British pilots due to the fact that Balpa is not "BA pilots" and pilots are not all Balpa members, then the public (on an average wage of 25 000K) will find it hard to be sympathetic if industrial action was felt necessary.

Presumably if openskies were to employ pilots, then Balpa would want them to apply for membership to plump up it's coffers, or would they decline all membership applications? No conflict of interest there then.

[Hand Solo]

Chris Darke was trying to change that, with some success, but was ousted in a BA Coup. Look what's just happened again, another BA coup.

Just to be clear here, are you saying that Chris Darke did a better job as General Secretary than Jim McAuslan is doing?

It may also be worth a thought that if Balpa and the BACC can't even get the wholehearted support of the majority of British pilots due to the fact that Balpa is not "BA pilots" and pilots are not all Balpa members, then the public (on an average wage of 25 000K) will find it hard to be sympathetic if industrial action was felt necessary.


No it's not really worth a thought. It's been said a hundred times before, but I'll say it again. BA pilots don't expect or need the sympathy or support of the public.

[Shaka Zulu]

Differences in opinion about what happened in the past....
Well done boys for watering the arguments down again into a pissing contest.
If everyone thinks that negotiations/company strategies/deals etc are that transparant to rationalize how 'bad' the BACC is in a couple of lines need to have their heads checked.

For me a couple of things are sure:
(being ex-ezy and current ba) A big Union membership and a strong set of clever individuals on the Company Council won't harm your case.

Wether you like it or not, what happens at BA WILL influence your T&C's in the medium/long term. Just a simple fact of economics.

So many things are changing in the aviation landscape that it's almost hard to keep with.

As a simple BA pilot, I work very hard for my company and for that I expect to be appropriately rewarded. Many friends are in completely different companies with their different reasons for being there. I won't digress into a slanging match with people that have axes to grind.
Most of us just get on with it and do not get involved much with party politics. The back office strategies of a massive union like BALPA will not be understood by me anyway, never ever.

Btw, in EZY I definitely felt the backing of BALPA and the EZY CC to drive T&C's up to a sensible level. Truth hurts... but we seem to be very able slagging others off instead of taking actions ourselves to improve our own companies.
I count myself in that category. I have the utmost of respect for anyone who will stand to be a union rep and genuinely tries to make a difference.

[hec7or]

"No it's not really worth a thought. It's been said a hundred times before, but I'll say it again. BA pilots don't expect or need the sympathy or support of the public."

do you really think that?

I think I detect arrogance of Olympian proportions.

you must be the world's favorite idiot

[M.Mouse]

What a nasty, bitter and unpleasant thread.

[BAMANAGER]

If you pilots cannot see that this thread is being spun by BA management you are very short sighted. I would suggest this matter is suspended until the end of the BA dispute. When the matter is won, then please contact your union over this under representation.Please close this thread.

[Litebulbs]

Only half of it MM!

[overstress]

Hecksevenor. We have unity within our ranks and the support of other associations across the world, frankly, public opinion has nothing to do with the principal at stake, thanks for contributing.

[Captain Jumbo]

Just to be clear here, are you saying that Chris Darke did a better job as General Secretary than Jim McAuslan is doing?

No you plonker; we're primarily pointing out that actually Balpa is effectively a BA creature.
hec7or has it entirely right - you clearly are:
the world's favorite idiot because you have never had, nor will ever have the sympathy or support of the public but you have forgotten that politics is the art of the possible.
It is sometimes quite difficult to discern whether BA management or BA pilots are better at making their company and their product, their so-called 'brand' a total laughing stock. One has to feel some sympathy for the rest of the employees, it's not so much being caught betyween a rock and a hard place as being caught between a mentally defective psychopath and a retard! I'll leave the allocation to others.
Just for the record wobble2plank me old, I rather think that Hulkomaniac was referring to TandemRotor with his naming convention of Wobblehead....but if the cap fits, by all means feel free.
Also btw, Hulkomaniac, that was a splendiferous post - there's not much that shuts down that fool Tandem as effectively as you did!

[wobble2plank]

Captain Jumbo,

Sorry but the word 'Wobble' pops out quite easily and it was quite easy to see who the intended was after a quick read but the dig was for fun, and no the cap doesn't fit.

Enjoy your flying

[Uncle Silas]

I see Hand Solo remains an admirable case study in why BA pilots deserve our support with his surgical analytical dissection and reasoned expositional argument, to wit:


No it's not really worth a thought. It's been said a hundred times before, but I'll say it again. BA pilots don't expect or need the sympathy or support of the public.


Utter fool, representing other utter fools, no surprises where they're all heading.........

as M.Mouse seemed to infer - What a nasty, bitter and unpleasant person

[Captain Jumbo]

Wobble - really glad the cap doesn't fit; and please enjoy your own flying too!
Never really thought it did, happy to smile.

My commiserations for the mess your airline seems to be in - replacing the leadership on both sides seems to be a good way forwards.

Southernboy - great post, I know the syndrome to which you refer all too well, HS is certainly not representative of most of his peers, but is all too sadly typical of the BACC. As they sow, so shall they reap.:yuk:

Oh well.

Silas - have you considered explaining Hand Solo's world view to the press, or should I get there first - such an ambassador for his company, for his union, for his cause.....he's probably BACC!

[Kurtz]

With ambassadors for their company such as Solo and Rotor, it's easy to see why BA pilots are so disliked and despised in the round. It's a pity, because some of my best friends are BA pilots, many of my ex colleagues are BA pilots, and the vast majority are good joes, just like you and me.
(Hey, I'll even smile and honk as I drive past the picket line - just don't ask for a donation!)
Lions led by donkeys....how can BACC manage to antagonise so many people?

Perception, presentation, history and behaviour - nowt else.

[Tandemrotor]

'"Shutting down Tandem'??

Guys come on. Surely you know me better than that! :rolleyes:

The funny thing is, none of these bitter rashers, who are so abusive on this ANONYMOUS FORUM, ever said a dicky bird to my face whilst I was working amongst them for 5 years!

Not a peep! Not a squeak!

Odd that isn't it?

And if they were brutally slapped down by the nasty BACC 'Stasi', (which they were not!) why don't they tell us what they did about it?

If you guys really are going to hijack YET ANOTHER thread, shall we deal in facts rather than the childish bitter abuse that has characterised your posts for all the years I can remember?

[757flyer]

When are these BA pilots going to actually put their money where their mouth is and take some kind of action?

I have read a few threads here on PPRUNE and there is alot of talk (often from the same people who claim to be BA) on how people should not join open skies etc , support the BA fatpilots in order to protect their own terms etc. What you are doing is asking others to take action for you!! I have not seen any action from yourselfs! You are demanding others to make sacrifices by not joining OS but doing nothing but spouting hot air.

More action and less bu**s**t needed me thinks.

[Litebulbs]

This could be money well spent!

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[M.Mouse]

..as M.Mouse seemed to infer -

Now, now that was to distort what I said.

I pay a large sum of money into BALPA each month. In BA the last CC was seen to be ineffective in various areas in our dealings with the company. The strength of feeling was such that several motivated people stood for election and effectively the old guard was removed. Progress, and by that I mean constructive and mutually beneficial progress between BA and BALPA on numerous issues, followed soon after.

To my shame I confess that I do not have an intimate knowledge of all the various takeover, mergers and other interactions with other airlines CCs when a conflict of interest occurred in the past.

What I would ask is that the vociferous and venomous amongst the posters here stand for election and fight their corner if they perceive their CCs are doing such a bad job against the big bad BACC. Alternatively leave and join the IPA. But to remain and just slag off BALPA and the BACC would strike me as unproductive and frustrating.

Chris Darke was, in my opinion, a disaster for BALPA. Jim McAuslan seems to be an excellent General Secretary and I cannot believe that he is allowing or would allow the BA section to ride roughshod over the majority membership of BALPA i.e. non BA BALPA members.

At the moment BALPA and the BACC are fighting an issue that has repercussions for almost every pilot in the the UK and possibly further afield. I will be retiring sometime in the next 5 years or so. I will be risking much with little to lose but am prepared to stand up and be counted. That action I may be required to take is not purely protecting the interests of BA pilots. If UK pilots believe it is just a BA issue I would suggest that a rude awakening is in store. BALPA are certainly not looking at just the narrow interests of BA pilots in this particular case.

This thread seems to be achieving nothing except serving as a poor example of how very unpleasant pilots can be with such entrenched internecine fighting and bitterness. Given the worldwide and vast readership of this site that saddens me.

When are these BA pilots going to actually put their money where their mouth is and take some kind of action?

As soon as the court rules whether it is legal for us to do so. I am sure you are not suggesting that BALPA allow the BACC to strike when the resultant damages, should that strike be ruled illegal, would bankrupt BALPA.

[757flyer]

quote: As soon as the court rules whether it is legal for us to do so. I am sure you are not suggesting that BALPA allow the BACC to strike when the resultant damages, should that strike be ruled illegal, would bankrupt BALPA.

Then until this ruling is made by the courts BA pilots should not be asking other pilots to take indirect action by refusing to join OS etc. The recruitment ban should be suspended forthwith. I find it very distasteful that some BA pilots have threatened to label others as "scabs" etc when there is doubt over the legality of any action against OS.

[the heavy heavy]

wow envy and rejection make for bitter bedfellows! :ok:

as for the ex ryan air chap who daddy etc etc etc - he has no doubt made the grade, and why not, but he most certainley has contributed to the indusutry's rush to reduced T&c's. he no doubt joined BA on BARPS and whilst the pension is an issue we all lost on, please don't start me on that, the reason that BA felt it could get away with offering such a poor package and still recruit was because it was matching the new lowering industry standard! go figure if he helped form the management ethos that drove that decision.

The intersting thing about the 'them and us' situation is that the only real source of info about ryan/flybe/globespan etc etc etc that i get is from the guys who have come to BA from those companies. interestingly they often do not paint a great picture of many of the characters and conditions that they left behind, I suppose why would they have left otherwise.

I am left confused by what it is the BA haters want. somebody asked why NOT bacx to operate the 318 to jfk out of lcy. firstly to want to operate this in my opinion you have to be mad but more importantly exactly why would mainline pillots give up on the potential commands? its a non-sensical and childish proposal. You want the work, will do it cheaper, then get angry when we attempt to preserve our t&c's by demanding that as much work as possible is done by mainline. I understand that it must be soul destroying to work for a group in which you feel disenfranchised and excluded. I understand that it must be galling to be told if you don't like it hump it and I sympathise that the upheval that potential job switching brings to family life. Unfortunatley the laws of economics win out as we will no doubt fiind out in the coming months. I in no way think mailine has a god given right to exisit but i'm relying on my cc to fight tooth and nail for it. and this is where i think MM and others make a valid point which is constantly shouted down.

the BACC job is to look after BA mainline pilots, period. when integration is the flavour of the day, cityflyer, then an attempt at finding the middle ground has to be met. Most of the ex-cf boys i know well are very happy at how it worked out for them. the odd balls that i hear complaining downroute had unattainable expectations and often are the very chaps who had tried on several occasions to join the company but had been unsuccessfull. again not everyone will be happy with any particular outcome. however my point is that the bacc's job is to look after me. the cc of other operators jobs is to do likewise. when our workplace faces rapid change and uncertain future it is only human for us all to want to look after number 1, usually because we provide for mrs no1 and the kids. the threat to us all at the moment should be obvious. balpa is attempting to meet that threat head on and it may break her.

I hope that those who feel nothing but anger at BA and BALPAs stance reflect on the issuse here. what the BA group chooses to do with it's assets in the UK is really up to them within the framework of the agreements. when it decides to ignore the aims of theese agreements to attempt to lower conditions and pay on the mainline company i ask you all to think about the next 5 steps down the masterplan and the effect that has on us all.

I apologise to those i have offended wiith my 'arrogance' during this thread. I see too much envy disguised as anger in the writings of a few and simple manipulation of the facts to convey the idea of betrayal by BA pilots in many others. I get angry at both. every pilot needs a gold standard of employment conditions to reach and at present that 'standard' is at virgin and BA. how did virgin get there, by strong represenation and benchmarking. i think that the ba haters could take a leaf out of the virgin guys caps. use our conditions to improve your lot, just don't expect us to do it for you.

757flyer

i agree that 'scab' is not a word that we should be throwing about.

i have many issues with OS and because of my 'lucky' position have no idea why anybody would want to A. work for stealin mitt & B. do 3 x back 2 back east coasts a month. If its a job you need then i will not be holding that against you and am not in favour of the ban.

i hope you don't mind me offering advice however. the present difficulties at BA will pass and I like many others think this is the end for WW. He has lost the employees and no airline that depends on high customer service survives with low morale troops. the holes in the swiss cheese WILL line up. the board know this, willy knows this, we know it. OS was a gamble before T5 opened and would now be a kamikaze action given the strength of feeling amongst us nigels. if you have a job offer there i would think very hard about the security and longevity which that offer will bring. the individuals heading up OS will happily slip back to mainline BA without an afterthought and leave you high and dry.

good luck

[Charizard]

HH said:

I am left confused by what it is the BA haters want. somebody asked why NOT bacx to operate the 318 to jfk out of lcy. firstly to want to operate this in my opinion you have to be mad but more importantly exactly why would mainline pillots give up on the potential commands?

For the same reason that GSS, CF, CX, and Connect pilots had to give up potential commands on their aircraft!!!! DOH!!!!!:ugh:
Sometimes you really have to wonder about the BA selection process - and the one at Adastral!

[Juan Tugoh]

Does shouting make an argument more cogent? It is the way children act in the playground. Either present reasoned fact or don't post.:ugh:

What exactly did the GSS pilots do to try and prevent BA pilots flying their aeroplanes? Same question for CF, CX and Connect pilots. Not trying to be provocative just never heard anything but one way vitriol on this.

[delwy]

Well I said "deary, deary me" back on page three of this "discussion" and we are now on page 5. Whatever it is that is going on it is beyond me. My previous post was completely distorted by somebody who wanted to attack a poster that I had quoted. Apparently I quoted the wrong person.

I quoted the poster because of what he said and I wished to support the ideas he conveyed (ideas I considered to be self-evident). The response was all attack. No discussion. No argument. Just references to past rows/battles/scars/perceived slights or betrayals.

As I read it there are few enough facts and arguments, but a lot of venom out there. Perhaps this is all being fanned by BA management, but I very much doubt it. The level of bitter and twisted comment is more typical of some pilots I have met over the years. Those pilots in my experience never did anything practical to help anyone's cause, including their own. But they are good at venom, I'll say that for them.

[Tandemrotor]

Just to illustrate what BA BALPA are up against:

In Apr 2002, Charizard wrote:
You have to remember that actually, some of us would be delighted to do your jobs at 2/3rds the salary - hey, we'd probably do it better too!

Well you tried, but then somebody came along, who could do it even cheaper!

And so the wheel turns, until we ALL end up where the accountants want us!

Though to be fair, six months later, once he had his 'feet under the table', the same person was asking:
Does anybody know by what percentage going onto BA Ts and Cs would ACTUALLY affect BACX ? I don't believe for a minute the cries of doom from management - but it must presumably have SOME effect.
It would be interesting to know that figure, if only to rebut Management Pilots and Trainers who are all sying it would bring BACX down
:rolleyes:

As I recall, his view was entirely consistent with others who post here. In other words, they wanted to replace 160 or so mainline pilots in the regions, because they were cheaper.

But as soon as they had their feet under the table, they didn't want to be cheaper anymore!

No wonder they were so disappointed when a few were denied mainline seniority, by BA - not BALPA!

I can anticipate precisely the same arguments from OS pilots. Particularly after a few months of 12-14, two man, transatlantic sectors!:eek:

[puddle-jumper2]

Juan,

What action did they take ? Well for a start they probably went to BALPA :}

The simple fact is it doesn't matter how proactive you are, if it's your CC in disagreement with BACC, history has taught us that BALPA will side with BACC every time.

This is why there is so much bitterness here, not because BA pilots fight for what they have - they have the right to do that............ but because when other pilots do the same they don't get the same support from BALPA.

Those few in BA that think they are gods because they are have a strong CC and are not 'lily livered' have obviously never seen the dark side of BALPA and probably never will.

[Pidge]

HH. I once flew jets in a fully-owned subsidiary of your company 'under the tailfin' and I don't remember you jumping up and down that I was on near half what your FOs take home. Was I there because I was talentless or was it a great stepping stone for a young pilot scrabbling for a job post 9-11. I've also taken and passed your 'gold standard' (and yet surprisingly simple) selection process but thankfully took the right course of action and remain in the more challenging, relaxed and enjoyable arena of charter flying. I almost left flying when at your now defunct subsidiary, I disliked it so much. Now I love my job.

I hope you guys get what you want and keep your well earned contracts and I know it means much to the rest of our industry (as does our current merger). Flying a 757 on mediocre pay (not buttons) for OS is no bad stepping stone and why should that bottom feeder who plainly could never reach you extraordinary standards give any form of sh*te how that effects you? You guys certainly never did it for us.

I rarely have a bad day at the office and that includes flying with many ex RAF, RN and air corps fellas, but in my 8 years flying airliners and I've had one of those days when I want to go home and cause my poor partner ear ache over the pompous, over confident, boring t*rd I've just had to spend hours sitting next to, why is it they are almost always ex-supersonic HUD drivers who used to wear light blue.

I think tosser was a bit rich too.
I'm off to visually hand fly my airbus into a greek island and be home tonight (as I always am) to enjoy 5 days off followed by 3 (never used) standbys for buttons.

How's terminal 5?

[M.Mouse]

Then until this ruling is made by the courts BA pilots should not be asking other pilots to take indirect action by refusing to join OS etc. The recruitment ban should be suspended forthwith. I find it very distasteful that some BA pilots have threatened to label others as "scabs" etc when there is doubt over the legality of any action against OS.

The dispute is real enough the legal issue is BA trying to block the BACC's attempt at preventing BA driving a coach and horses through our Ts & Cs in the future. Why not undermine the BACC just like a certain UK airline did to the Australian pilots in their major dispute in the 80s? An airline whose CC was mentioned earlier as a shining example of how industrial relations should be conducted.

[757flyer]

quote M.Mouse: The dispute is real enough the legal issue is BA trying to block the BACC's attempt at preventing BA driving a coach and horses through our Ts & Cs in the future. Why not undermine the BACC just like a certain UK airline did to the Australian pilots in their major dispute in the 80s?

This is a completely different situation, you are asking (demanding) that other pilot groups take secondary action against BA re Openskies by not accepting employment, at the same time you are not taking any action due to a court case!!! In other words you are demanding that other people fight your battles for you!! There is no strike busting going on here (unlike the aussie dispute). Seems to me you want your cake and eat it. What support have you given to other fellow Balpa companies in the past in the way of secondary action?? NOTHING because it is illegal and also i very much suspect there would be zero interest about disputes outside BA.

Openskies is NOT BA, it is a seperate company, it isnt even going to operate in the UK!! Tell me.... if Lufthansa set up a similar operation would you be taking the action you are now?? I think not, you are not even challenging the so called piss poor terms and conditions of this company, BUT you want everybody on the mainline seniority list?? doesnt add up!!

Why dont you demand that Air France pilots .... Delta pilots etc are on your master list as well because they WILL be operating out of heathrow in direct competition to BA, they are your biggest threat to your very existance! AF/KLM are going to convert terminal 4 into a Skyteam terminal with direct connections and routes to the USA!! You need to support Openskies so BA can take competition to the back yard of Lufti AF KLM etc that way you will be securing your future terms and conditions.

The times are achanging, move with them or die.

[Bill of the Hamptons]

757 flyer

Will the competition out of Heathrow be coming from Air France or "Ciel Ouvert", Delta or "Delta Jetstar"? I think we should be told!

[the heavy heavy]

Pidge,

Please dont misquote me, I'm quite happy making provocative statements on my own. Well done you for finding our selection so easy, should I say 'simple' given the numbers that dont u must be a great candidate for any job and am happy you have found a company that has the right balance of work/lifestyle for you.

My point about gold standard was about pay and conditions. U earn less than your equivlant in BA or virgin, that's all I was infering.

Hand flying into the Greek islands, ur pick of jobs due to ur finding the selections easy, the real sky god of this forum steps forward. :O

[the heavy heavy]

757flyer,

Such a disengenous post leads me to suspect your motives.

It most certainly is BA. That why its OS by BA on the side of the jet! It will be utilising the BA groups assets and using our brand, tattered as it is, to sell seats. The long term aims of the OS project is there to see for all in jeststar and American Eagle. Anybody taking a job at OS has in my humble opinion every right to do so. Just like the BACC has every right to follow their members wishes and seek the inclusion of that workforce in the mainline group. Anybody who wants to work for OS and doesn't see the advantages of being on mainline list is without a doubt either a ba manager or very stupid.

This is a start up new fleet within BA. The BACC's actions will not be taking jobs or careers from anybody, trust me there will be no rush to OS from the present fleets. If successful the BACC's resolve will provide more not fewer pilots acccess to the security I enjoy at present.

If you dont support balpa''s stance on this then u defacto stand with WW and his brand new world anti pilot zealots.

[snaga]

757flyer you appear to be either a very misinformed person or a very self-serving person. Apparently all BA has to do is threaten court action and you figure you are free to do as you wish ... but then you were always free to do as you wished, even when there was no court action.

If fact why don't you write directly to WW and offer yourself for a job in BA at, say, 60% of their B747 scale. WW will be happy and so will you. You will not be taking anyone's job or impacting on the conditions of other BA pilots (perish the thought) but rather improving BA's competitiveness. In fact, why waste you time writing here, just go for it!

Bonus: You can blame it all on BALPA if it goes wrong!! Nothing to lose!!!

[Southernboy]

Thank you Capt Jumbo, sadly I think my humble attempt to bring some historical fact & observations of human dynamics to this discussion was not generally well received. No surprises there of course as most threads of this type are popular with those who want to whinge (or bang on in the crew room yet fail to fill in the CC questionaire) and don't want to debate an important issue & find a win win way forward.

BAMANAGER is right, management will be laughing their socks off whilst calculating their bonuses. Divide & rule works every time.

Re this "Just to be clear here, are you saying that Chris Darke did a better job as General Secretary than Jim McAuslan is doing?"

When did I mention who was better? It is historical fact, that CD began the process of making BALPA more inclusive and growing its membership as a result. BA made their contribution too by giving up a constituency seat on the NEC.

The only point I was making was that lessons are seldom learned. CD was ousted - and true or not it was seen as a BA coup - and the BACC failed "help a brother" when it was needed. Am I supposed to censor history to make it more agreeable?

The lesson there, as others have said, is that all learn from the BACC mistake back then & have everyone stand behind anybody's issue, they are all important.

Whatever else may be going on, there is - as I said before - a perceived BA bias, real or not. It's something BALPA needs to fix. That's all.

[M.Mouse]

757flyer

You plainly have read little about the OpenLies dispute or you would not write such arrant nonsense.

Southernboy

If there is a real or perceived BA bias to BALPA please write to Jim McAuslan with your concerns, reasoning and examples. I know he will take the allegations and examples seriously and, without doubt, BALPA would be stronger without any bias.

It would be interesting to be kept informed of the content of a letter setting out your allegations and Jim's response.

[overstress]

The sheer venom and nastiness of some posters on this thread is astounding.

Perhaps I've led too sheltered a life, but to read the hatred written between (and sometimes on) the lines here has really surprised me.

I used to 'visually hand fly my airbus into the Greek islands' as well but I gave it up for a job with more roster stability. I don't see the relevance to the argument, Pidge.

Mods - can we start a new forum for embittered regionals - they seem to be everywhere...

[Southernboy]

" You plainly have read little about the OpenLies dispute or you would not write such arrant nonsense."

You're half right but I don't think I've commented on it have I? Which particular part of my post is "Arrant nonsense?"

As for writing to Jim, sorry can't be doing with any of that any more, I gave 10 years hard work to my CC and am v glad to be away from it, go fight your own battles.

For what it's worth I am very cynical about corporate behavior & don't subscribe to the view that some have stated that "I'd do your job for half the money." Nobody should have their Ts&Cs undermined.

I think I just said pilots should stick together & ALL disputes are important to someone didn't I? Was that the nonsense?

The post above mentions embittered regionals. They've been dealt a very sh**ty hand or 2 over the last few years. Maybe if everyone understood other peoples problems more then you could all pull together. Their plight wasn't BA pilots fault but then some BA pilots live in a BA bubble, & don't help their cause either by failing to appreciate what it's like to be bullied & have NO control over a private life.

Not that any of this is anything to do with the central issue but it's a lot to do with bad blood displayed here.

[Tandemrotor]

Southernboy

I believe you have misread M.Mouse's post.

FWIW, I agree that BACX/Connect employees were indeed lead up the garden path. But as you so rightly said, by my employer, not my CC

And even though, as I have demonstrated, they were the crowd who said:
"I'd do your job for half the money."
I would still have felt obliged to support them, had they ever required me to do so.

They just weren't able, for whatever reasons, to give me that opportunity.

Whatever did, or did not happen, I personally was never able to influence anything! So can we cut down on the abuse please!

(Last remark not aimed at you Southernboy!)

[M.Mouse]

Southernboy

The first part of my post was addressed to 757flyer and began with that name. I was not accusing you of writing nonsense.

It is interesting that you accuse BALPA of biased behaviour but then appear not to be bothered enough to even try to have the behaviour addressed.

I suppose somebody will one day or is it more cathartic to air bitter and venomous thoughts here instead?

[Orion Man]

Having worked for a UK charter airline for many years, I am astonished at some of the bitter vitriol being posted on here aimed at BA pilots.

Like it or not, BA is the benchmark for T & Cs and if they lose their righteous battle with WW, we can all prepare for a bleak future. Get a grip guys for God's sake.

Regards

Orion Man

[Phil.Capron]

Can I ask a simple question?Who will be doing the training and checking?
Entirely their own setup or anyone from BA involved and if so on what terms?
Press reports on OS always seem to suggest that BA pilots want to impose their T's and C's on the operation.Make sure the message gets out clearly that this is not the case.ATB.

[SR71]

Slightly tongue-in-cheek (although there is nothing tongue in cheek about the_heavy_heavy's posts), but BA pilots wanting ALL pilots to pull together at this point in time, because of downwards pressure on their T&C's is a little ironic....

I mean, when paying for your type-rating, and spending your first few months working for free started to become de rigeur at certain airlines (in lieu of sponsorships drying up), I don't remember BA pilots of the day expressing the intention that they'd metaphorically "down tools" on behalf of those so unfortunate as to be forced down that road?

And arguably that has been the single biggest threat to all of our T&C's....

Better get used to the fact that a proportion of pilots would love to see you suffer!

What is also curious, is that many BA pilots reduce the argument they presently have with management to one of seniority, and stop there.

But it must be obvious to all but the dullest, that this doesn't really offer BA much leeway with regards to managing the costs associated with their new business proposition. Surely this is the crux issue?

Its all very well allowing OS pilots reduced T&C's, but inclusion on the seniority list means that once their secondment is up, they're free to take up employment on Mainline T&C's... So you only ever have a small tranche of pilots on OS T&C's.

How does that help BA? Or rather, how does that help the business you're employed by?

Granted I personally think there is slack in the system, but what are BA pilots suggesting the company do to tackle this point?

[Shaka Zulu]

Very simple SR71, negotiate!
Thats all we are asking. Not the simple no and no answers they've given us when we said we would like to make it a nil cost solution for BA (already going to far in my opinion for a negotiation standpoint). So where is the rub?

Ofcourse it's a business venture that hopefully takes off in the right way. But we want to be a part of it for reasons afore mentioned. But as before, we are not going to blow OS out of the water asking for mainline T&C's. One little nugget mind: You can be paid either in pounds or in euro's for OS at a fixed rate of 1.4. So as the pound slides against the euro, their contracts are not that cheap at all anymore. The equivalent of a PP18 skipper on mainline.

Funnily enough when I was low cost, I never ever thought I wanted somebody who has better T&C's suffer. For what reasons exactly? I accept your viewpoints regarding a general slide in the aviation industry but it's not BA's fault. If you want to lay blame go directly to the Unions or your own Company Council. I think the working relationships between Unions or even in one Union are very poor indeed. Just like any other business I guess.

Even we suffer from that general slide, look at pensions, 900hr rules, work coverage debates etc etc
We might enjoy the best T&C's in the UK but the gap has been closing for a while now.
And in fact, rejoining BA as an FO from a captains salary at EZY has been a BIG pay cut for the next 15 years. Tell me who reaps the fruits from that?

[Southernboy]

"It is interesting that you accuse BALPA of biased behaviour but then appear not to be bothered enough to even try to have the behaviour addressed."

Perhaps you could point out where I accuse BALPA of a BA bias? The ability to read English is a contested issue at the moment & perhaps it's not your first language?

To make it easier for you I said "A perceived BA bias." Who perceived it? The members I was representing not me. It was ONE of the reasons recruiting membership beyond a certain point wasn't easy.

My first post referred to Chicken & the Egg. BACC is successful due to 96% membership, among other things, ergo get membership up & we could do the same but many perceived a BA bias - real or not - and that didn't help. I'm repeating myself but it seems to be necessary..........

Why don't I get active? I've retired & was merely offering some observations, gained by many 7 day weeks & long hours working for the CC, in the hope they may actually be useful. It seems not, so I'll stop & let the whingers & and angry continue.

[delwy]

Southernboy as an observer who does not have a dog in this particular race, but who has previously commented on the level of vitriol / venom shown by some of the participants I have an observation for you.

Above you accused - incorrectly - M Mouse of directing a comment to you. Despite this being pointed out to you and a post of clarification by M. Mouse you neither acknowledged your error, nor apologised to the mouse. Instead, you have returned to your "attack" theme in which BALPA is your target. This suggests, to me at least, that your manifestly incorrect reading of M Mouse's post was driven by your antipathy and not by your ability to read. That seems to be a characteristic of many of the posters here and I find it unhelpful, if not depressing.

The paradox is that I am a critic of BALPA. Yet the "debate" here is not constructive and there is no sign of making any progress. However, as one who has been at the receiving end of what I believe to be BALPA incompetence, I have little doubt that it is at the NEC level where we will find the problems (and where it looks to me like the BACC have over the years had exactly the same problems as many other CCs).

More joined up thinking and courtesy from everybody would go a long way towards working out what has gone wrong. We can fight with each other, but it will only be to the advantage of our enemies. It takes a special level of stupidity to do that - as is well illustrated in some of the posts in this tread.

[FlyingTom]

C.P
Training in Cranebank with their own checkers. Admittedly some ex BA early retirees.

SR71
I agree with your observation, why did BALPA not stop the rot from below, or even notice ? I don't know how effective BALPA could have been as these were new companies and at least new jobs were being created. I suppose there was still hope as pilots could still progress their careers at a later date. Now the rot is from both ends, OS / out-sourcing is going to erode things from the top. The eventual outcome might be to squeeze everything into a central flat region.

BALPA can't look the other way this time and is rightfully doing a good job.

[Tandemrotor]

SR71

A slightly tongue-in cheek-response to your "slightly tongue-in-cheek" post.
Better get used to the fact that a proportion of pilots would love to see you suffer!

No **** Sherlock! :rolleyes:

If BA pilots do suffer, do you think that is 'more', or 'less' likely to result in improvements to general T&Cs in this industry? Wouldn't that be a pretty stupid thing to hope for?

Finally, what do you suggest BA pilots could have done to prevent people in other companies, "paying for your type-rating, and spending your first few months working for free"??

As you said, these may have been 'new' companies. But they aren't now. What are their pilots currently doing to stop this practice? Everyone has to take personal responsibility.

BALPA is not an all powerful organisation! It's you and me. Without strong membership in a company, those pilots have no voice, and effectively have to be grateful for whatever crumbs are handed down from the managers at the 'fat' table!

I'm very lucky. I work for a company where virtually every one of my colleagues realises the importance of having a voice at the 'fat' table.

Others could be 'lucky' too. If they organise themselves! It's not rocket science.

[Southernboy]

Thanks DELWy, duly humbled, but confess I've not gone back over the whole saga as I think I've made the point I wanted to; so sorry Mouse if your fur was ruffled, no need to apologise for misunderstanding me.

[SR71]

Tandemrotor,

I'll be the first to admit my ignorance...

I'm curious though, because when was the last time that BA union membership levels were, say, down at 65%?

Historically, it seems to me that membership levels at BA have always been high. Correct me if I'm wrong....

Now we can discuss why that might be the case, but as one who has been intimately involved in trying to address union membership levels in a company I worked for, it is not at all easy to raise membership levels...especially if there is a consensus amongst a proportion of the population that you don't have anything worth fighting for anyway!

Some BA pilots obviously don't appreciate this...in fact, one would think they're individually responsible for recruiting all 3000+ members!

Once membership levels reach a certain point, though, a kind of critical mass ensues, with the perception of new entrants being that there is obviously a reason for such membership levels (which in BA's case is fairly obvious), and the levels self perpetuate.

So whether high union membership levels result in good T&C's, or whether good T&C's result in high union membership levels is not clear to me.

Personally, I don't believe a decline in BA pilot's T&C's will have a significant effect on the majority of pilot T&C's in the UK whatsoever...certainly not in the short to medium term. It might if you're VS, AF, KLM or LH...

But we'll all be working for EK on the A380 soon won't we?

As delwy says, a little less testosterone and some more of that good NOTECH stuff might assist this debate no end....did I really say that?

:ok:

[Dick Deadeye]

Some of you still don't get it do you?

Take this latest response from Hulkomaniac

In your obsession with your own Ts and Cs - which is undeniably your right - you have directly shafted a number of groups of pilots who have had the misfortune to be brought within or associated with your group.

No we didn't. Our employer may have shafted you, we didn't. We stood up for our own pilots, you didn't. Harsh fact, and I realise that you don't like hearing it, but there it is.

That is why, although I accept OS is a crude management ploy to reduce pilot costs per se across the Western Industry

Well, you got that bit right, so why are you so upset that BA pilots are standing against it? Ashamed of your own failures in the past?


you block and object the slightest thing that might affect your mainline prospects.

Exactly what the BA Company Council is mandated to do. What do you expect them to do? Look after your interests, when those in your company are too weak / indifferent / afraid to do anything themselves?

Join the real world. When I was in BA, I expected the BACC to object to the slightest thing that might affect my mainline prospects. That is what I paid my 1% for, for all those years.

I wonder what would be said if an experienced skipper behaved like that to a brand new FO? Hardly CRM is it?

Anytime anyone starts spouting about CRM, in this sort of industrial context, it is highly indicative that they know they have lost the intellectual argument.

The clincher is the resorting to puerile name calling and insults, as exemplified in the following gems from Hulkomaniac:

I suggest you DO kn0b off and form your own union

the slanted and biaised view of the world you project

those bullying and patronising words.

Perhaps D1ckhead has a point

You are an @rse sir!!!

a disgrace to your community, your union and your profession!

I try not to stoop to your level of vulgar abuse, but with an attitude like yours, I'll make an exception. Thank God you didn't get anywhere near BA.

You come across as exactly the sort of person who blames everyone else for their own problems, whilst being much too afraid to address them head on with your company.

Much easier to whinge and moan on an anonymous forum, about those nasty BA pilots, that's bound to improve matters for you eventually! :*

To the rest of you, if your T & Cs are not as you would wish, it is up to YOU to do something about them. Takes some backbone though, which might be where the problem lies!

[M.Mouse]

Personally, I don't believe a decline in BA pilot's T&C's will have a significant effect on the majority of pilot T&C's in the UK whatsoever...certainly not in the short to medium term. It might if you're VS, AF, KLM or LH...

In the 80s when I worked for a company other than BA. In one 12 month my pay went up by just over 50%. We enjoyed a payrise every couple of months. Why? We were rapidly expanding and could not a) recruit enough people and b) were losing experienced people to better airlines. I left too!

This was at a time when after many years of no recruitment airlines were in need of more pilots. Had the conditions at BA been equal to the airline I worked for I doubt the management would have felt the need to keep giving unasked for pay rises because people would not have been tempted to leave!

Simple market forces would indicate that in times of need the employer with the perceived best Ts & Cs will attract the most people. For that simple reason there has to be a trickle down effect from a large and high paying company to cause smaller companies to raise their game to attract and retain their pilots.

[Ray D'Avecta]

Personally, I don't believe a decline in BA pilot's T&C's will have a significant effect on the majority of pilot T&C's in the UK whatsoever...certainly not in the short to medium term. It might if you're VS, AF, KLM or LH...

I second M.Mouse's analysis, and go as far as to speculate that BA Pilots T&C's have negligible effect on non-UK Airlines. There are so many direct and indirect barriers to pilot employment mobility in Europe, (particularly across national borders) that the lure of better T&C's somewhere else is not often enough to cause a stampede for the exit. The correlation is more direct with the likes of VS and BMI, who, as I understand, benchmark their T&C's to BA anyway.

Those of us who are employed by the likes of KLM, AF, LH etc, nevertheless continue to watch the developments at BA with keen interest, and with best wishes to the BACC........If BA successfully set up OS with a third party pilot workforce, it may be only a matter of time before AF/KLM or LH decide to do the same!!!

[Bill of the Hamptons]

A bit of a record on this thread, two consecutive reasoned arguements from "Ray" and the "Mouse", looking at possibilities for the future yet to be "made" rather than trawling over real or imagined past slights or injustices that cannot be changed.

Before the mood is lost a few more comments about the future.

It is certain that the big players like AF and LH are closely following what is happening with "Open Skies". It is also highly likely that when the dust has settled around OS ,and if it proves successful, that there will soon be a "Ciel Ouvert", "LH Lite".....flying out of airports outside their countries of origin including of course the UK.

Whilst "CO" , "LHL" could represent welcome employment opportunities for some British pilots the T&c's will inevitably be modelled on those of "OS".

So whereas in the past it might be true to say that T&C's in one country did not impact on another, it may take some time but in the future it is highly likely that this will no longer be the case. The existing LO Co's have already started the process and the advent of any "Legacy Lites" will only accelerate and accentuate it.

BALPA have obviously realised the potential importance of "OS", the real importance, at least from the perspective of BA Management, will be revealed by it's stance in front of the threatened strike.

It is important to realise however that what happens at BA in the coming months could have an impact in due course, to a greater or lesser extent , on all pilots throughout Europe at least. How big the ripples will be will depend upon just how big "big a stone" OS really is or turns out to be.

[gatbusdriver]

I take umbrage at some of these quotes:

[To the rest of you, if your T & Cs are not as you would wish, it is up to YOU to do something about them. Takes some backbone though, which might be where the problem lies! /QUOTE]

I'm very lucky. I work for a company where virtually every one of my colleagues realises the importance of having a voice at the 'fat' table.

Others could be 'lucky' too. If they organise themselves! It's not rocket science.

If you don't like BALPA you don't have to be part of it - if you are part of it, then be active within it.

Too lily-livered in many cases, too afraid they might upset someone important and damage their career prospects in their airline. Much easier to blame those nasty BA pilots for all their troubles!


The plain fact is that those of you who work under substandard conditions are too disorganised, and in some cases too nervous, to do anything about it.

Sorry if the truth hurts!

I think I would be right in saying that most people posting on here, who work for BA, joined at a time when there was already a high percentage of union members within the company. Hell, when my father was in BA (ex Flat Earth W@nker with BEA on the 1-11) they had strong union membership.

When my brother joined BA some 18 years ago he was practically informed that he HAD to join Balpa in the first week of his course (the registration forms were sat in front of him on the desk).

When my BA colleagues started the sponsored course that I was on, a chap came down and told them to join Balpa and handed out registration forms.

What I am trying to say is that if you joined BA you are lucky to have walked into a company with a history of high union membership.

Others are not so lucky. I happen to work for a company that only has about 70% membership. I think Southernboy has a point about PERCEIVED bias. Which is why we struggle to raise the levels ( as well as some apathy and other reasons to boot). But even with our meagre 70%, we have a great CC who do some amazing work in protecting our T&C's.

To achieve the level of membership we have has taken a lot of hard work, we did not just walk into a company that had 96% membership. We had to talk to people to encourage them to join, to convince them it is worth 1% of their salary, to ensure them that it was no longer the BA Pilots Union (not easy with the number of ex-Dan Air pilots we had).

So please don't lecture us about having backbone etc.....

Finally good luck with the strike. I look forward to hearing that WW has got the boot, and you guys have kept the Trojan Horse out.