French DGAC award English pilot only level 5 English!

[richatom]

I am an English native speaker, I have no regional accent, I speak grammatically very correctly and clearly.

Yet today I went to Paris to have my English tested by the DGAC. They awarded me level 5!

I know that there is nothing wrong at all with my English - so clearly there is a problem with the test used by the DGAC. The examiner (who was English) told me that I was not the first native English speaker to be awarded less than level 6. Apparently, there was recently a New Zealander who only just reached level 4!

The problem seems to be in the ATC listening comprehension, whereby they play short excerpts of genuine ATC/pilot exchanges, and then the student has to translate a short phrase onto paper. As a native speaker I understood completely both sides of the conversation - but failed because I did not use the exact same words as in the exam. So, for example, if the recording says "turn heading 190, and climb to level 120", and you write "turn heading 190, and climb level 120", you will lose a mark!! Similarly, if on the recording the grammar is incorrect, or slang is used, but you reply in correct grammar, and without slang, then you will be penalised! So if a recording of an american pilot announces "I'm gonna take next left, then taxi up runway Lima", but you write "I am going to take the next left, then taxi up runway Lima", you will be penalised!!!

Even more ironically, although I did all my training in France and now hold a French CPL, I do not speak French to mother tongue standard and probably never will. However, the DGAC have awarded me level 6 French, without ever making me do a test, simply because I have a French licence.

So according to the French government, I speak French better than English!!!

These ICAO language requirements are a real mess!!

[Airbubba]

So if a recording of an american pilot announces "I'm gonna take next left, then taxi up runway Lima", but you write "I am going to take the next left, then taxi up runway Lima", you will be penalised!!!

I have trouble understanding you fellers sometimes myself, I feel your pain.:)

[Dream Land]

Surely there must be a process to get re-evaluated, when I took my test there were several test questions you could practice on before taking the actual test, if you do get another test, give it a couple of seconds before you begin your response, make sure the volume level bars are responding properly, good luck.

[P.Pilcher]

The DGAC's efforts to improve the standard of aviation english is laudable, but their implementation is clearly flawed. If the French can award level 6 to any holder of a French license, then why on earth can't a level 6 be awarded to any holder of a British license?

P.P.

[richatom]

If the French can award level 6 to any holder of a French license, then why on earth can't a level 6 be awarded to any holder of a British license?


This was my point to them too. I actually also hold a UK CAA JAR PPL and FRTOL - but that means nothing to them.

I know from the examiner that several other English pilots were tested by the DGAC and did not receive level 6, and I read on Pprune of an English pilot in Germany also only receiving level 5. So evidently there is something wrong with the testing procedures.

[Airbubba]

If you get a level 5 does it keep you from going to certain airports or something?

[123 O'Leary]

Level 4, Level 5 or Level 6 - 'Do i look like im bothered'!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[fantom]

I have been asked to award ratings to several foreign pilots recently on the occasion of their LPCs.

Because I (along with everyone else in the UK) have been awarded a provisional 4 (the min reqmt), I am not allowed to rate anyone else because I need a 6 and, even then, can only award 6s because I have not been trained in language assessment (LASOR's words).

When I do my next LPC, how can I get up to 6 if the examiner is in my position?

You couldn't make it up.

By the way, you should be bovvered; if you don't have a 6, you are subject to retest at regular intervals.

f

[richatom]

Because I (along with everyone else in the UK) have been awarded a provisional 4


Perhaps everybody with CAA licences should write to CAA and demand level 6, because the French DGAC have automatically awarded everybody with DGAC licences level 6 in French. If the DGAC can give everybody (including non-native speakers like me!) level 6 French just because we have done our training in France, then the surely the same should apply in the UK and so everybody who has completed their training in the UK (including non-native speakers) should automatically get level 6 English.

[Steamhead]

I am a RT examiner and have been awarded a provisional 4.
I have been signing out level 6 for the past year or so since the license form changed.
As the previous post said "You couldn't make it up."

[richatom]

Would it be possible for you to upgrade my CAA FRTOL to level 6 then? Can I do the test over the phone from France?

I spent a lot of money today travelling from south of France to Paris for the stupid DGAC exam and I am certainly not going to retake it.

[Airbubba]

I am a RT examiner and have been awarded a provisional 4...As the previous post said "You couldn't make it up."

I hope and pray this stuff never comes to America! The feds have enough to do lately measuring the spacing on wire ties.

[richatom]

I hope and pray this stuff never comes to America! The feds have enough to do lately measuring the spacing on wire ties.

yer what?? I don't understand that. I only have level 5 english:ugh:

[BEagle]

There were only 6, yes SIX responses to the CAA's Consultation regarding this lunacy. One of which was mine - I suggested that any UK FRTOL holder should be permitted to self-declare themselves as Level 6, with the usual penalties for making a false declaration....

It was rejected - they left off the part about the penalties in the CRD....:rolleyes:

But later I was told that all Examiners would be assumed to hold Level 6 without further formality.

Ironically enough, the person at the Belgrano itself, who told me this had to go for 'language assessment training' because he doesn't hold a FRTOL.

How typical that the UK is making such a bolleaux of this - unlike the USA which has said that, since all FAA ATPL holders were taught in English, ipso facto they must have acceptable Level 6 English.

[Saintsman]

If the French can award level 6 to any holder of a French license, then why on earth can't a level 6 be awarded to any holder of a British license?

Because being 'British' does not mean that you were born there and its your first language.

[eagle21]

Level 4, Level 5 or Level 6 - 'Do i look like im bothered'!!


I will be if all airllines take this approach... ( not really, hopefully common sense will prevail after all...)


From British Airways jobs:

Direct Entry Pilot Scheme (Hold Pool) Shorthaul/Longhaul


Ref UKLHR568
Region UK - Heathrow
Location London - Heathrow
Category Technical & Operations





Job Description


Closing Date: 30th April 2008

First Officer

The Direct Entry Pilot Scheme is for experienced high calibre pilots who want to develop their careers with one of the most progressive international airlines in the business.




Requirements


All pilots:

JAA/CAA Class 1 medical
ICAO Level 6 proficiency in English language

[jollyikarus]

Would be nice if some French ATC-guys were at least up to Level 4 standard.
But that would be wishful thinking and....political!

Cheers

:-)

[eagle21]

How is all this mess going to end up?


I am surprised there is not an official petition to the CAA circulating around here yet.

[Sunfish]

You might like to listen to the live ATC feed from the YMML area in about two and a half hours from now, when some of the students get out at YMMB.

I fully support language testing both from an airmanship point of view and simple classroom training.



http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=international-oc

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Richatom,

I do recall you slurring your words one evening a couple of summers ago "entre les isles." I'd have given you a Level 3 as a result!

Brgds

[MarkerInbound]

Airbubba,

It has come here. All new FAA certificates now state that you are "English Proficient." So you are now a Level 4 English speaker.

[Fliegenmong]

" Apparently, there was recently a New Zealander who only just reached level 4! "

Did very well then.....:}

[er340790]

Trof from the Canada section is the expert in all Anglofone/Francofone matters........

TABERNAC!!!!!

[Dan Winterland]

Apparently, wot I speek is level 6 engleesh.



I acheived this by being tested by a English chap. During the test, it transpired we were from the same part of the UK. So some of the test was done in the Norfolk dialect!

But he has awarded some of my antipodean colleages 5s. Not suprising really!

[411A]

Just received the 'new' FAA license in the mail.

Yep, there it is...'English proficient'
No 'level' nonsense'

FAA, far less complicated.
However, don't make the mistake in thinking that an FAA type rating is somehow 'easier'.
Rude awakening, if so.:E

[Old King Coal]

Why oh why, when flying over Africa, do French speaking pilots (and some ATC units) seem to insist on providing position reports in French ?!

Nb. Much / most of Africa is a 'procedural' operations area, with no radar coverage... so using Aviation English for position reports helps improve the situational awareness of all concerned.

And don't even get me started on the number of RNAV equipped aircraft I see cruising along bang-slap in the middle of African airways (somewhat unsurprisingly, nearly always with a French speaking crew onboard)....
Have you never heard of using an 'offset' and / or is it that you don't know how to set your FMC to do this ?! :mad:

[Taxi2parking]

Dear 411A


Poor chap, I get a lot of junk mail too....

[BEagle]

The thought of Dan conversing with his examiner in 'Singing Postman' dialect made me chuckle!

"Roight, boy?"

Amazed that you found a fellow web-finger in Honkers!

[Level 400]

Couldn't resist a chuckle too as one originating from the Eastern Counties!

'Hev yore far got a dickey bor?'

Blast bor, you gotta larf!:oh:

Put a level of english on that! :p

Level 400

[richatom]

There is clearly no point in me re-taking the test, as I can't improve my mother tongue. I think the only solution is that next time I go to England, I get my level upgraded to 6 by a CAA examiner (I have a UK PPL and FRTOL so this should not be a problem).

Any idea how I do this? Are there regional centres where I can get my level evaluated? Or do I have to go to Gatwick? If anybody knows of an examiner in Carlisle/Newcaste area that would be very helpful.

I can't wait to start arguing with the French DGAC when I present an FRTOL annotated to level 6. They will have a real problem accepting that an English examiner is good enough to judge the English competence of an English pilot...

[5 RINGS]

get rid of your French Licence mate, there's no use trying to have French DGAC admitting they're wrong...

advise from a French native speaker pilot holding a CAA printed fATPL, making his way back to the island in a few weeks time...

If you really want to enjoy France, well get a UK job with a house in France and enjoy our fantastic wines ;-)

[Me Myself]

To all

Unless you want to end up in a straightjacket, DO NOT, repeat DO NOT argue with the DGAC !!!
I was talking to AF training captains the other day, DGAC wrote them off from the examiners list for having ticked the wrong box in their test report. The test was cancelled. On top of that they were asked to report for an official apology for having been rude on the phone and seriously breached the rules.
Anyone tempted ???
I'm taking the test this week and thought it was going to be a walk in the park :sad:

[Guava Tree]

Translation of by http://babelfish.altavista.com of
http://www.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/prospace/exam/examens_pratiques/PDF/info_LP.pdf is:

GENERAL CIVIL AVIATION DCS - PN/OFFICE OF The EXAMINATIONS LINGUISTIC ABILITIES CONTROLS Rév PRESENTATION: 13 Page: the 1/5 11/03/08 INSTALLATION OF the CONTROL OF LINGUISTIC ABILITIES DEFINI BY the ICAO 1. the INTERNATIONAL REQUIREMENTS to reinforce the level of safety of the civil aeronautics, the Council of the ICAO adopted on March 5, 2003 the amendment n°164 which introduced into appendix 1 with the convention on the international civil aviation of the new requirements relating in particular to the linguistic abilities of the members of control crew. Thus, as from March 5 20081, to penetrate in an airspace the pilots of an aircraft will have to justify of a level of sufficient expression and comprehension of the language used in the radiotelephonic communications. The holders of a professional licence of pilot of aircraft must have on their licence a mention of their linguistic ability, and this one will have to be maintained in a state of validity for the exercise of their profession. This requirement relates to all the pilots of plane or helicopter, professionals or non2. Appendix 1 of ICAO defined a rating scale of these new linguistic abilities and a period of validity. This rating scale includes/understands 6 levels: 1. Functional Elementary Préélémentaire 2. 3. Pre 4. Operational 5. Advanced 6. Expert At March 5, 2008, level 4 (operational) is the minimum required for the pilots, including for the titular pilots of a licence before this date. The period of validity of the linguistic ability is a function of the level obtained by the pilot at the time of a control carried out by an appointed inspector: ?. level 4: valid 3 years?. level 5: valid 6 years?. level 6: valid with life. Since the initial evaluation will have concluded on a level 4 or 5, the pilot will have to satisfy a periodic control in the 3 years or the 6 years for the extension of this linguistic ability. CAUTION: The new requirement on the linguistic abilities should not be confused with aptitude "FCL1.200" for the English language required to affix a qualification of instrument flying (IR) on a licence of professional pilot (CPL). 1 Expiry 5 years of time of application of amendment 164 of appendix 1 of the ICAO, adoptee the 5/03/2003 2 air controllers are also subjected to this requirement DIRECTORATE-GENERAL Of CIVIL AVIATION DCS - PN/OFFICE OF the EXAMINATIONS LINGUISTIC ABILITIES CONTROLS Rév PRESENTATION: 13 Page: the 2/5 11/03/08 2. APPLICATION OF THESE NEW RULES IN FRANCE In France, the evaluation of the linguistic abilities will relate only on the French language and the English language, which are the 2 languages used by French air control. The pilots wishing to obtain a linguistic ability in another language (Spanish, German, Russian, etc....) will have to address themselves to the authority of a State organizing the linguistic abilities in this other language. The service of the licences of the DGAC will carry the completion dates of validity of the linguistic abilities in French and/or English language on the French licences of pilot. 2.1 INITIAL EVALUATION OF the LINGUISTIC QUALIFICATION LEVEL 2.1.1 PROFESSIONAL PILOTS the initial evaluation of linguistic ability must have passed in a center of the DGAC. There will be an evaluation for the IFR and an evaluation for the VFR. Concerning the IFR, the evaluation will be combined with examination FCL1.200 already organized by the DGAC. Since the session of July 2007, the candidates with the FCL1.200 are evaluated simultaneously on this new competence and can obtain the initial aptitude of their linguistic ability in English language, which takes into account only the notes allotted to the 2 oral tests of examination FCL 1.200. NB: The notation of the tests was modified in order to be in conformity with the new regulation of the ICAO. It is necessary to obtain at least 10/20 with each test to be declared received; weakest of the notes to the oral tests the final level allotted to the candidates determines. A new examination VFR will be organized by the DGAC. 2.1.2 PILOTS DEPRIVE the new regulation (see §2.4) does not introduce new constraints for pilots PPL. It however makes it possible to pass the evaluation of the linguistic abilities in English (and French) for those which would like to be subjected to such a test. The possibility offered to the holders of PPL to subject itself the linguistic ability proof English VFR enables them to satisfy the requirements of appendix 1 of the ICAO. It is responsibility for the French pilot to determine if it must or not have this certificate of linguistic qualification level when it undertakes a flight in VFR towards a foreign country by contacting the foreign Authority concerned. The DGAC does not carry out the control of the licences at the exit of the French airspace. However, it appears necessary to recall that all the pilots eager to fly, in flight plan to the instruments, in airspace requiring the use of the radiotelefony in English language must have shown an aptitude to use this language by making a success of examination FCL 1.200 (cf point 4.3.3. subparagraph 2 E the decree of 24 July 1991 relating to the conditions of use of the civil aircraft in general aviation). As from March 5, 2008, they must be titular aptitude FCL 1.200 and linguistic ability in English language at least of level 4. DIRECTORATE-GENERAL Of CIVIL AVIATION DCS - PN/OFFICE OF The EXAMINATIONS LINGUISTIC ABILITIES CONTROLS Rév PRESENTATION: 13 Page: the 3/5 11/03/08 2.2 the PERIODIC CONTROL OF LINGUISTIC ABILITY the pilot will be able to pass periodic control (if it obtained level 4 or 5)?. maybe in a center of the DGAC?. maybe in an external organization approved by the DGAC (language proficiency organization: LPO). The contents and the support of the tests are identical in all the centers of examination, which they act of centers of examination DGAC or LPO. Periodic control can have passed in the 12 months preceding the expiry by validity of the linguistic ability in progress, the new validity leaves the following day of the day when the preceding one expired; on the other hand if control passed more than 12 months before the expiry of validity of the linguistic ability in progress, the new validity leaves the date of the control which was anticipated of more than 12 months. The failure with a periodic control does not call into question the expiry of validity of the held linguistic ability. 2.2.1 PRESENTATION 2 types of control are organized by the DGAC according to the selected environment: - VFR - IFR aptitude IFR is worth aptitude VFR a control includes/understands two oral tests: ?. Listen of band: The test consists to listen to and retranscribe elements of the sound track (14 messages of air control (10 to 1 point and 4 to 2 points), and a ATIS or VOLMET (at 2 points). This test lasts one approximately 15 minute, and is noted from 0 to 20?. Fictitious flight: The candidates work in binomials. The test proceeds entirely in English, it consists of a series of exchanges between the candidate having the role of the pilot and the inspector that of an organization of the Air traffic control, during a phase of a fictitious flight. With the exit of the flight, the binomial opens an envelope in which it finds a sentence emergency or of unusual situation written in French, that it must state in English with the first candidate. This one must announce in English the situation with control; the situation is then reversed with the other candidate of the binomial. This test one duration maximum of approximately 25 minutes for each candidate is noted from 0 to 20. 2.2.2 INITIAL EVALUATION OF the LEVEL the linguistic qualification level is given from smallest of the notes obtained with the 2 oral tests: Level 4 is allotted if this note is at least equal to 10, Level 5 is allotted if this note is at least equal to 14, Level 6 is allotted if this note is less equal to 18 (recall: any note lower than 10 is eliminatory) DIRECTORATE-GENERAL Of CIVIL AVIATION DCS - PN/OFFICE OF the EXAMINATIONS LINGUISTIC ABILITIES CONTROLS Rév PRESENTATION: 13 Page: 4/5 11/03/08 2.3 LIMITED PERIOD: MARCH 5, 2008? MARCH 5, 2011 the regulation envisaged a transitional provision for the benefit of the pilots, who at the date of March 5, 2008, are titular on the one hand qualification of instrument flying in a state of validity and on the other hand have the qualification of international radiotelefony (QRI) or the aptitude for English language "FCL 1.200". It will be automatically allotted to them: - level 4 for the English language (valid at the latest until March 5, 2011). However, of March 5, 2008 to March 5, 2011, with the first intervention of the one of the following acts: ?. the delivery or renewal of a qualification of class or type?. the delivery or renewal of a qualification of instructor?. the delivery or the renewal of an authorization of inspector, it will be requested from the pilots to produce the proof that they satisfied a periodic control of linguistic ability in English language in a center of examination of the DGAC or an approved organization. With defect, the qualification or the required authorization could be delivered to them, but the linguistic ability in English language which had been granted to them at the latest until March 2011 will be stopped at the date of delivery (or renewal) of the qualification of type/classe, the qualification of instructor or the authorization of inspector. Even when they profit from the transitional measure, the pilots can present once as many as they wish it with the control of linguistic ability, because a failure with this control does not have any consequence on the linguistic ability in progress. In addition, all the titular pilots of a French licence and holding the privileges of the radiotelefony in French language are seen allotting level 6 (valid with life) for the French language. To hold account of the difficulty for all the pilots of being in good time informed of the application of the transitional measures of the decree of 24 April 2007 relating to the linguistic abilities of the technical flight crew of the civil aeronautics, the affixing of a qualification of the type, class or instructor required before September 1, 2008 and from which the formation began before March 5, 2008 does not give place to the modification of expiry of the linguistic ability in English language obtained to the title of the transitional measures envisaged by the decree of 24 April 2007 relating to the linguistic abilities of the technical flight crew of the civil aeronautics. In addition, considering that the renewals of qualification of the type, class, instructor and authorization of inspector which intervene less than 3 months after the end of validity of the qualification or the authorization concerned do not leave the possibility of an anticipation sufficient for the passage of the control of linguistic ability, those do not give place to the modification of expiry of the linguistic ability in English language obtained with the title of the transitional measures envisaged by the decree of 24 April 2007 relating to the linguistic abilities of the technical flight crew of the civil aeronautics. (cf decision of March 4, 2008) DIRECTORATE-GENERAL Of CIVIL AVIATION DCS - PN/OFFICE OF the EXAMINATIONS LINGUISTIC ABILITIES CONTROLS Rév PRESENTATION: 13 Page: 5/5 11/03/08 2.4 TEXTS REGLEMENTAIRES decrees published in the Official Journal of May 16, 2007: ?. Decree of 24 April 2007 relating to the linguistic abilities of the technical flight crew of the civil aeronautics and modifying various provisions?. Decree of 24 April 2007 modifying the decree of 27 January 2000 relating to the mode of the examination of aptitude for the English language for the flying personnel of the civil aeronautics, candidates with the qualification of instrument flying?. Decree of 24 April 2007 fixing the mode of the test of aptitude linguistic according to rules' of flight at sight?. Decree of 24 April 2007 relating to the organization by the general direction of the civil aviation of the control of the linguistic qualification level in English language or to the French language of the personnel flying personnel of the civil aeronautics?. Stopped of 24 April 2007 relating to the approval of the organizations in charge of the control of the level of the linguistic abilities of the pilots of planes and helicopters being used to prove that they are able to speak and understand the language used in the radiotelephonic communications?. Instruction of 22 November 2007 relating to the approval of organizations LPO in charge of the control of the level of the linguistic abilities of the pilots of planes and helicopters being used to prove that they are able to speak and understand the language used in the radiotelephonic communications?. Decision of March 4 08 relating to the conditions for application of the decree of 24/04/07 relating to the linguistic abilities of the technical flight crew of the civil aeronautics.

[roch]

Just got the ICAO level 6 box ticked when I took my FRTOL test, despite the fact that I'm a french speaker and that my english is just passable...

[ECAM77]

THE CAA IN GERMANY (LBA) ISSUED ME LEVEL 4:(, WHILE AN ENGLISH SCHOOL IN AUSTRALIA CERTIFIED ME A NATIVE SPEAKER ABILITY. I HAVE HEARD CHINESE PILOTS GOT LEVEL 6 ISSUED!:ugh:

[alemaobaiano]

One thing to remember is that none of the tests being applied worldwide are actually a test of your English skills, but your AVIATION English skills, so it is perfectly feasible for a native to score less than 6.

Being English does not automatically confer level 6, and why should it? My grandson speaks excellent English, is he automatically a level 6? There are many other tests you can take to demonstrate your competence in the English language generally, but the DGAC test being used to grade ICAO levels is testing your ability to communicate, in English, in an aviation environment.

How good the individual tests are, well that's an entirely different subject :rolleyes:

TTFN

[411A]

Poor chap, I get a lot of junk mail too....

The US Post Office, being rather efficient in this locale, simply marks all the junk mail from Europe as 'return to sender'.

[ehwatezedoing]

411A :ok:

Same here with Transports Canada.
No Levels just a proficiency. And I got both French and English :E

[Farrell]

Folks...

There really is no point in having a blag session over failing to reach ICAO standards.

I had two "native speaking" pilots from one of the largest airlines in the Middle East go into a hissy fit a while ago having been rated at ICAO Level 5.
They are operational. No big deal to me.
"How can I be a five? I've a native Australian!"

Here's your answer. It is NOT just about being able to speak English. It is also about proper use of ICAO phraseology.
You have had years of warnings about these exams and yet you just sit there before going into the exam having absolutely no idea what you are about to do.

If I corralled 10 of you in the briefing room today, I would reckon maybe, just maybe, one of you would know the ICAO criteria.

Having a go at the French for you not translating into proper phraseology or syntax is not on. Can I hazard a guess and say that you didn't study for it? Or check out what the content was?

I get this every day at the moment. "But that's grammar!" "Why do have to say day-see-mal? Point is fine!"

[richatom]

Here's your answer. It is NOT just about being able to speak English. It is also about proper use of ICAO phraseology.

Not according to the CAA - read the level 6 evaluation form. No mention at all of requiring competence in ICAO phraseology.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1199.pdf
ICAO phraseology is what is examined in the r/t exam for your FRTOL.


Having a go at the French for you not translating into proper phraseology or syntax is not on. Can I hazard a guess and say that you didn't study for it? Or check out what the content was?

I think you are leaping to conclusions there. If I remember correctly from the exam, there were several instances of recorded ATC/Pilot conversations where they did NOT use correct syntax or correct r/t procedures. Rather than writing them out word for word with their errors, I just wrote down what they said using correct grammar and syntax, but without changing in the slightest the meaning. I did not see my exam papers afterwards, but from memory there was an example where an American pilot said "I'm gonna take next left", and I wrote "I am going to take the next left". I seem to remember another where I heard "d'I climb to level 100" and so in answering I hesitated between answering "and I climb to level 100" and "I climb to level 100". If you get three errors out of twenty, you are eliminated from level 6. However, certainly none of my "errors" were enough to change in any way my comprehension of the examples, or how others would understand me. And certainly my aeronautical French is nowhere near as good as my Aeronautical English - yet I have level 6 French!

And by the way, I did prepare for it - and if you wish to try the test yourself, there are examples here:

http://www.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/prospace/exam/ecoles_formations/FCL1200/trafic.html

In the exam, you get twenty of those, and if you fail to understand more than two words in all twenty examples, you will be eliminated from level 6. For example, if you answered "continue your radar heading" to Q3, that would be regarded as incorrect. But have a go youself and tell me if you can understand absolutely every word - and then ask yourself whether you think that reason to justify eliminating you from level 6. I'd be intrigued to hear your answer to number 5!

[richatom]

On another thought, I do think the CAA are not doing UK FTOs many favours by making their students sit an exam. If the CAA followed the example of the French and Americans (both of whom give pilots automatically level 6 in the language of their training) UK FTOs would corner most of JAR training market. You would have flocks of JAR pilots training in the UK, seeing it as a guaranteed route to level 6 English.

It will be especially the case as more employers start following the example of BA and insist on level 6 as a pre-entry requirement.

[Ancient Observer]

The facts are boring, but there are rather a lot of "british" license holders who can't speak/comprehend English at level 6. (and I'm not being rude about the Celtic tribes). Too many posts here have made too many assumptions.

[richatom]

OK, let's all take the DGAC English test. You can find an example of the whole test here:
http://www.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/prospace/exam/ecoles_formations/FCL1200/index.html

Most of the test is easy-peasy, but the only bit that trips up native speakers is the "ecoute de bande". You have to score 18/20 to be considered "Level 6". If you make any error at all - eg miss out a preposition - even though it changes not at all the meaning of the phrase, then you lose a mark. So have a go yourself. No cheating - you are only allowed to listen to each recording once. Here's my answers below:

1. "Turn left heading one zero zero" (easy peasy)
2. "Climb flight level three three zero" (easy)
3. "Continue that radar heading" (easy)
4. Sqwauk (alt???) 2061 - not sure what he says before transponder code I can only imagine it is "alt" but it does not sound like it.
5. Negative due to???? - I have listened to this one many times and don't understand what he says.
6. "right on the inner"
7. "radar-heading" (easy)
8. "at your discretion" (easy)
9. "range is twenty" miles
10. kilo 0945 - all departing aircraft - 210 degrees at 17 knots - visibility 25 km - BKN 2000ft - 1000- 27R 27L - Turbulence may be experienced - report - acknowledge.

So on that test I would certainly have one, possibly two wrong, and I could easily have missed out a preposition somewhere in the ATIS readback. So I would only get level 5.

Let me know how you get on!!

[joehunt]

Sorry to be "Johnny come lately" and drift the thread but who has to take this test and when? I have a JAA ATPL and this is the first I have heard of it. Been away from the UK since September '07 though.

[Techman]

Welcome back from hibernation joehunt.

You might want to read this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=301125&highlight=ICAO+language+proficiency). It is nothing you really shouldn't know already.

[sud747]

Having worked for UK operators I could not miss the fact that a few of them could not write in english (write a report on the voyage report or techlog entries without making errors) nor where they able to do simple maths and this it is not the same nor the only pilot not being able to do simple calculus. RT wasn't the problem in most cases but as everyone you get it wrong sometimes. So I do understand english native people being upset but as everyone your are prone to errors and it is not the purpose of this exam to diminish anyone but to pick out the black cheep...? ( Oh yes, pardon my english please)

[MarkerInbound]

411A,

If you dig back into the FAA paperwork, it says they are giving everyone level 4 because you had to "read, speak and understand" English to get the certificate in the first place. So just as it was implied before that because you had a FAA certificate you "read, speak and understand" Engish now it's implied you are level 4 because you hold a FAA certificate that says you are "English Proficient."

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info/all_infos/media/2008/info08012.pdf

But nothing about recurrent testing or upgrading your level.

[richatom]

SUd747 - there is nothing different in France. Plenty of the native French speakers I work with can scarcely spell in French (particularly with regard to accents), have a very scant knowledge of the correct verb-endings in many tenses, and have no idea how and when to use the subjunctive tense.

If you look up the ICAO guidelines for English proficiency which are here:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/43/ICAO%20LPRs.pdf
You will see that level 6 is very carefully and comprehensibly defined. Clearly somebody such as myself with English mother-tongue, no regional accent, no speach impediment, a high-level of general education (degrees from Cambridge and MIT), ATPLf, and fluent in several other languages, is going to meet the ICAO level 6 English requirements, as described in that document. There is simply no way that the existing DGAC FCL1.200/1.028 exam is apt to judge a level 6 English speaker. They really do need to do something about their exam, because otherwise a lot of French pilots are going to be very unfairly penalised on the job market.

[Airbubba]

Yep, I don't have an accent like them yankees on TV and at JFK. Or all them foreigners.

Why should I get a four?:)

Anyway, I can still fly around the world, even to the UK as far as I can tell...

[sud747]

Richatom
I am 100% behind you when you say some (+) french pilots should be afraid about their english proficieny check but likewise some english pilots to a lesser extend will not do as expected or fail. How should i put it? It is not because you are a doctor that you are never ill. Got my point?

[AnthonyGA]

The objective of testing should be to ascertain whether or not a pilot or other aviation professional can function in English within his working environment, and from what I've seen of the sample of the DGAC test, it precisely targets that goal.

There are two advantages to awarding or withholding points based on a precise transcription of audio excerpts: (1) it's a very highly relevant and valid way to see if a test subject really does understand what he is hearing; and (2) it eliminates any subjectivity on the part of the examiner—either the test subject gets all the words right, or he doesn't.

It's completely plausible that someone might be a native speaker of English but not a level 6, especially in the very narrow and specialized domain of aviation. If you have trouble understanding the audio portions, you need to work on understanding radio transmissions. Being a native speaker won't help you if you have trouble understanding what is said on the radio, and not being able to transcribe exactly what was said indicates that you didn't understand it all.

It looks like the DGAC has made an honest effort to be relevant and objective in testing, which is refreshing for a Latin country.

Most native speakers of English would not be able to obtain a perfect score on a rigorous and objective test of skill in the language. Almost none of them would be able to obtain a perfect score on a highly specialized test of English for a specific purpose, such as aviation. I teach and test adults every day in English, so I see this all the time. There's no shame in getting less than a perfect score, and from a safety standpoint, it's a lot better to have a test that furnishes some objective, realistic, and relevant evaluation of communication skills than it is to just assume that people are adequately competent in a language based only on some loosely related criterion, such as native language, nationality, old-boy network membership (prevalent in far too many countries), etc.

In any case, whether the result is a level 5 or level 6 doesn't really matter, since either is sufficient for the task. I hope this test is applied with equal rigor to native French speakers; if it is, maybe that will weed out those who cannot communicate (as a group, French people generally speak terrible English, and I wouldn't want the ones who speak terribly flying internationally as crew).

The day may come when the greatest number of people in aviation having trouble with English will be the native speakers, since they may be the only ones who are never adequately tested. This would leave a handful of native speakers with dangerously inadequate skills, whereas people with other native languages, rigorously tested, would not be able to get by with anything less than an adequate level.

[richatom]

I would agree that perhaps a very small minority of British pilots would fail to obtain level 6 ICAO English, if the test is a true measure of pronunciation, structure, vocabulary, fluency, comprehension, and interaction, as defined by ICAO (for example, http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/43/ICAO%20LPRs.pdf).

However, the DGAC English test in no way tests those measures of English competency. The DGAC English consists of a series of out-of-context ATC recordings, and if you fail to understand one or two words then you are excluded from level 6. Completely ridiculous!

Despite what others are misleadingly stating, the ICAO language requirements have nothing to do with aeronautical knowledge - their requirements are entirely a measure of linguistic competence. There is no way that a non-pilot native English speaker could ever even get close to level 6 on the DGAC test (let alone the fact that most of the test is conducted in French!!).

The DGAC has some serious thinking to do on its FCL1.028 test otherwise it is going to seriously penalise DGAC pilots on the job market.

[Matt35]

Kind of off topic, but on a lighter note...the late Miles Kington said that the French Navy had come up with a new inspirational motto for the seamen...

To the water! The hour has come!

Translated as

A l'eau!, C'est l'heure!

Matt.

[richatom]

Thank you - but bear in mind ICAO language requirements are nothing to do with aeronautical phraseology. I reckon a non-pilot would score next to nothing in that test!


It's completely plausible that someone might be a native speaker of English but not a level 6, especially in the very narrow and specialized domain of aviation


You are confusing two separate issues, like a lot of other posters here. There are two exams of English proficiency - FCL1.200 which is a radiotelephony exam (same as UK FRTOL). Then there is FCL1.028 which is an English proficiency exam and which has nothing to do with aeronautical terminology (check yourself with the links ICAO links that I posted earlier, or here (http://www.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/prospace/exam/examens_pratiques/PDF/Grille_OACI.pdf) to the DGAC definition). A native English speaker who has no aviation knowledge whatsoever would normally level 6 on FCL1.028, but would fail the FCL1.200. The problem with the DGAC test is that it is trying to test two separate skills with one exam.

The CAA has a much better approach - r/t skills are tested in the FRTOL and English language skills are tested separately - and then only if it is obvious that the subject is not level 6.

[Breaking_Clouds]

Negative speedrestriction!

[richatom]

Negative speedrestriction!

WRONG!! It is "Negative due to (something!)". "Speed restriction" is plausible for the rest of the phrase, but there are too many syllables.

I've listened to number 4 again and I agree it *might* be "alpha" and that is plausible - but phonetically it sounds like "ansa".

Well there we are then - already some of you not at level 6 selon la DGAC!

I just asked a fluent english speaking non-pilot to take that test - he scored three! He managed to scribble down parts of some of them, but most of them he just did not comprehend at all. Before you all jump - the ICAO language requirements assume no aeronautical knowledge - they are purely a measure of language proficiency.

[CirrusF]

I just did the test and I couldn't understand number 5 at all - it is bizarre! "that's approved, negative due to ???". Whatever it is why does the controller approve something as negative?

I didn't get number four either - I guessed it might be "alpha" but wasn't sure.

I didn't have time to write out the ATIS instructions in full either - it would be easy to write it in shorthand, but I didn't have time to scribble out all the phrases in full. I just can't write long-hand fast enough.

So that's me failed then. Just as well I have a CAA FRTOL - just had a quick chat with an examiner and he signed me off level 6 immediately.

[loveGSM]

Guys, maybe it is off-topic..
I am an Italian national flying in Italy for an Italian Airline, but with a UK licence.
My licence is about to expire its 5 years validity, and I just discovered I have to pass this exam to have it reissued.
Do you know where I can take it on a short notice?
(As long as I have understood in Itlay it is not possible yet anywhere)

thanks...

[OutOfRunWay]

in No. 5 Man bilong Tower, him say:

Delta 138, that's approved, negative speed restriction

My assumption here is Delta 138 wanted to climb/descend without speed restriction.

I supose each bit is correct ICAO, but taken together, it dont make much sense, and neither do most of the other recordings..

Makes me wonder why they test for R/T proficiency in an overly anal-retentive way using dodgy praseology. :ugh:

OORW

[lambert]

I have been watching this thread for some time and interested to see statements like "get your JAA licence in the UK and automatically get a level 6" - inferring that the French or other authorities would have to accept it. I don't think that this is quite correct since the French authorities make their own assessments, the UK have their own arrangements, etc. At the moment, thoughout the world, different authorities do not accept each others' ratings (unless specific arrangements exist to the contrary). Lots of private organisations (in the UK, US and Australia) have started to carry out their own tests but if these have not been accredited by specific authorities they are worthless.

I am still confused by the concept of Level 6 French (or Spanish, etc), since the ICAO scales were specifically designed to measure English!

By the way, the only difference between level 6 and level 4 is the frequency at which you have to be retested (you get level 6 for life).

[richatom]

I am an Italian national flying in Italy for an Italian Airline, but with a UK licence.
My licence is about to expire its 5 years validity, and I just discovered I have to pass this exam to have it reissued.
Do you know where I can take it on a short notice?
(As long as I have understood in Itlay it is not possible yet anywhere)



If you go to the Public Counter at the CAA, the examiner will talk to you for a few minutes. If the examiner decides that you are at mother-tongue level, you will be given level 6. Otherwise, you will have to take an English proficiency exam. If you google "CAA form SRG1199" you will find the relevant form and instructions.

By the way, the only difference between level 6 and level 4 is the frequency at which you have to be retested (you get level 6 for life).

Unless you are on the job market, because some employers (eg BA) demand level 6 before you can send in your CV.

OutofRunway:
Delta 138, that's approved, negative speed restriction


You got it wrong too - it is "negative due to speed restriction". See what I mean by native speakers missing prepositions without realising it? You would be level 5 according to the DGAC test!

[yetanotherdawn]

Richatom that test didn't seem too bad; I don't know if my answers would be correct though.

1 to 3 - same as you.
4 the missing word is "alpha"2061.
5 "negative speed restriction". No "due to" is intended, he is being advised that there is no speed restriction.
6 to 9 - same as you.
10 there are also clouds "few at 1700 feet" and the broken clouds are at 2200feet. The English (British if you prefer) never did really warm to Hectopascals instead of millibars.

YAD

[OutOfRunWay]

To be honest, to most of the transmissions I would counter with the ICAO standard "say again?"

I firmly believe in making sure you understand what atc is trying to convey to you, even if it means asking three times. :8 I'm not easily embarassed.


OORW

[etrang]

if the recording says "turn heading 190, and climb to level 120", and you write "turn heading 190, and climb level 120", you will lose a mark!! Similarly, if on the recording the grammar is incorrect, or slang is used, but you reply in correct grammar, and without slang, then you will be penalised! So if a recording of an american pilot announces "I'm gonna take next left, then taxi up runway Lima", but you write "I am going to take the next left, then taxi up runway Lima", you will be penalised!!!


It would seem then that there is an obvious solution, answer the way they want and don't try and be too clever. Or perhaps you didn't included enough exclamation marks.

[TSHEKUDU]

Guys, they are French, look at the way they design an aircraft......you have to move thrust levers forward to give thrust, yet to turn the landing lights on you have to flick them back towards you., you can disconnect the autopilot, but PLEASE DONT DISCONNECT THE AUTOTHRUST, cause its not recomended, cause "TSHE EAROPLANE SHE KNOWS WHAT SHES DOING" :hmm:....... :ugh: so dont worry about your test, count your blessings, you could have been employed to fly one of these pieces of plastic:ok:

[Me Myself]

However, the DGAC English test in no way tests those measures of English competency. The DGAC English consists of a series of out-of-context ATC recordings, and if you fail to understand one or two words then you are excluded from level 6. Completely ridiculous!



Well folks; after reading this thread I went in like a lamb ready to be slaughtered............and I got a 6 !
I totally disagree with the above remark and for once with DGAC, I found the test to be really very down to earth. It does measure english competency. Having to describe a situation taken out of an enveloppe to another fellow requires all the competency you can muster. Some blokes were really tragic and you'd wonder what it would be like under stress. The " voyage " is along the same lines. If you can't speak english ( wether general or aeronautical ) you're suffed. Indeed, as a group, the french speak crappy english and crappy will not do with that test.

As to the " out of context " thing ? RT when you're flying, is totally out of context too. You have to underdstand everything that's going on and reply to what directly concerns you and I think the test does just that. It requires that you just write down what you're hearing. Period.
And by the way thanks to all the feedback cuz I didn't miss a , or a . The trick is indeed to write EVERYTHING that you hear. General meaning won't do I'm afraid.
The facilities were good, the sound system flawless and the people running the test professional and friendly ( certainly not a french trade mark proving that with new blood things can change ) on time and we were out in 90 minutes.
I think it does the trick scooping up the not so " crème de la crème ".
I can't really see where the problem is for a native english speaker unless they came with a cocky attitude thinking it was owed to them. I dunno, only suggesting.


Tchekuddu

I wish the french were the sole designers / producers, think of all those jobs and money !! However, a few other nations also design / produce this " piece of plastic ". I'm sure you're coming from one of them.
I always thought adaptability was one of the foremost important qualities a pilot must have. If you have a problem with the landing lights the rest must be a tad stressfull for you.

[worrab]

""negative due to speed restriction". See what I mean by native speakers missing prepositions without realising it?"

I though CAP413 specifically prohibits the 'to' preposition (confusion with two)

[richatom]

The French test is trying to combine the FCL1.200 (r/t competency) with the FCL1.028 (linguistic competency - which assumes no aviation knowledge). Therein lies the problem. For if a fluent native English speaker, but non-pilot, were to take their test, they would not score level 6. They would likely fail even to get level 4, since the test assumes aeronautical knowledge (and it also requires fluent French to understand the questions - but that is another matter).

The CAA tests the two skills with two separate exams - FRTOL for r/t competency, and an entirely separate English competency exam for those who are not automatically classified as native English speakers. This follows more closely the ICAO guidelines.

FWIW, the Head of Examinations at the DGAC just wrote to me privately to admit that the combined FCL1.200/1.028 exam needs to be improved to ensure that evidently level 6 native speakers are not penalised simply because they make a small error in transcribing a couple of r/t recordings.

I though CAP413 specifically prohibits the 'to' preposition (confusion with two)

Correct - and I lost a point in my exam for exactly that. The controller said "heading 310, climb to level 100", which I transcribed to "heading 310, climb level 100". I don't see how my correction of the controller to standard phraseology proves that I am not a level 6 speaker, which is what was supposedly being tested in the exam.

If I had to take the exam again, I would evidently write out all the errors etc, but there will not be another time. I've decided that the best solution to all of this is just to give up my DGAC licence and get a CAA licence instead. Type ratings, medicals are all so much easier to renew with a CAA licence than with a DGAC licence, even living in France.

[Me Myself]

If I had to take the exam again, I would evidently write out all the errors etc, but there will not be another time. I've decided that the best solution to all of this is just to give up my DGAC licence and get a CAA licence instead. Type ratings, medicals are all so much easier to renew with a CAA licence than with a DGAC licence, even living in France.

Well, that's a shame. I think you should reconsider. Anyway, thanks for your posts, they helped a lot.

[loveGSM]

TO richatom:
Thanks for your relpy,
that is exactely what I mean, I will be going to the CAA in a few days but I was trying to look already to some places where I can do the exam as I am probably NOT level 6.
I was just alarmed by the fact that in the website there is no mention of any school or organization yet ready to provide this service...

[kwachon]

This is so funny, I hold an FAA ATPL and needed the English Proficiency notation, so, I sent in my license to the FAA, paid my $2 and just got back my new license that now says "English language proficient". voila....

[AirScrew]

Seriously people, you/we cant be surprised at the French providing some friction and pushback over language issues. There are some in politic circles, even this week, who appear to make a career of it.
I am just thankful that all of my ATC experiences have been good ones (and some VERY good).

[Life's a Beech]

Me Myself

Well folks; after reading this thread I went in like a lamb ready to be slaughtered............and I got a 6 !
I totally disagree with the above remark and for once with DGAC, I found the test to be really very down to earth. It does measure english competency. Having to describe a situation taken out of an enveloppe to another fellow requires all the competency you can muster. Some blokes were really tragic and you'd wonder what it would be like under stress. The " voyage " is along the same lines. If you can't speak english ( wether general or aeronautical ) you're suffed. Indeed, as a group, the french speak crappy english and crappy will not do with that test.You say you got a six? It is obvious from this paragraph that your English is not to the standard of a native speaker, so I think you prove the exam is not accurate!As to the " out of context " thing ? RT when you're flying, is totally out of context too. You have to underdstand everything that's going on and reply to what directly concerns you and I think the test does just that. It requires that you just write down what you're hearing. Period.
And by the way thanks to all the feedback cuz I didn't miss a , or a . The trick is indeed to write EVERYTHING that you hear. General meaning won't do I'm afraid.I take it you've never read CAP 413, or any other nation's RT manual? That's the one that indicates the calls to be used in various contexts, i.e. puts the RT in context. I take it you have never trained as a pilot, where your instructor puts the RT in context?

The test might require you to write down everything you hear, but that is something required neither by standard flight operations nor the ICAO definitions of English competency. The whole problem is that the test requires everything to be written down, which is irrelevant to testing proficiency against the ICAO standards. The point of the entire thread is that general meaning won't do, but that there is no apparent reason not.

[Whossat Forrus]

Bring back morse ASAP

[Me Myself]

I take it you've never read CAP 413, or any other nation's RT manual? That's the one that indicates the calls to be used in various contexts, i.e. puts the RT in context. I take it you have never trained as a pilot, where your instructor puts the RT in context?


Dear Life

Ouch !!
As a 777 skipper I must have done something right during my training ( I hope ). Sorry for the suffed instead of stuffed ( no punt intended ) big fingers, small keyboard.........!
No, I haven't read CAP 413 and I admit this doesn't preoccupy me all that much when landing in JFK or LAX.
As I said, I just went in, spoke when asked to, did my stuff, left and got a 6. Sorry if that upsets you so much. My Aussie ATPL is good enough to cruise around the world I'm afraid.
I think you are totally missing the point here. Moaning and bitching about the system won't help you one bit. They want it done a certain way and unless you want to spend another 80 Eur, that's the way you're going to have to do it. They rule, we don't. I know it's a crappy deal but that's the only one we've got. The real question is : do you need a french licence or not and how bad ? If not where's the problem ? If yes, then go by the rules because they won't change, not before you eat the dafodils by the roots anyway. I've been around long enough not to try to understand DGAC. Life's too short.
By the way, thanks for the info some were good enough to share on this site.
This goes for any other administration around the globe. They whistle the tune......we dance. I don't recall CASA to be all that logical either when it comes to air law.
If the FAA wants to stamp a licence for 2 $, be my guest. I've also got a US licence and it bears " restricted use " meaning " take your sorry self elsewhere ". Unless you are a US citizen or have a green card, it's useless.

[Life's a Beech]

No upset, but you must admit that paragraph was rather obscure in language, even for an Aussie ;)

I agree that moaning and bitching won't, in the short term, help, However it has informed a lot of people who did not know before what this new system means (that it is level of English proficiency, not explicitly related to aviation English) and that there is a deep flaw in the French testing system. Comparison has also been made with other systems, with any luck exposing their flaws and helping understand which might be good.

There are some rather influential people here, and eventually if enough people know the problems that are being caused by the flawed system something might be done. This has got to be a good way of spreading that knowledge quickly, from you based in Aus or France to me based in the UK, and on to any of our colleagues to whom we might talk about the issue, by chance or because it is relevant. The more people who are aware of the issue, the more likely it is to be addressed.

Even European agencies, perhaps even EASA and the DGAC, occasionally do consult.

[Me Myself]

Life

The problem in my view isn't so much the test but the knowledge or lack of it people have.
Bear in mind that it was designed to assess french pilots only, not native english speakers. No one doubts for one second that an english pilot can speak english. Exept in Yorkshire maybe :) Speaking of which, I remember reading an article last year about the Home Office implementing a new nationwide police radio system. They had to send each regional force a R/T manual to try to get rid of regional linguos.
The test however is very rigid and there are reasons. If you purely stick to by the book R/T you'll then end up with people jumping in droves through the loopholes. By that I mean R/T can very easily turn into " pigeon english ". That's what has been going on for years.
The test in its present form came as a nasty surprise to native speakers. I see a bit of over confidence here too. Knowing all this, getting a level 6 should be a walk in the park for any native english speaker. Just be a good boy, do what's requested of you now you know the traps and walk away happy just like I did.
Apparently, the only people complaining here are.........native english speakers which, you'll admit, is bit of a laugh isn't it ?
This reminds me of a line in a movie where one boss asks his employee " Do you want to be right or.......happy ?? "
As to the french ? I think the test does just what it's supposed to do. People will have to be on their toes knowing they'll be tested on a regular basis or face the posssibility of being grounded. I don't know what AF will do or be allowed to do however, but don't hold your breath thinking half of their pilots will be sent home.
I understand a few airlines are starting to request level 6 to apply. This should make things interesting with pilots coming in short supplies very soon. What about chinese pilots ??? Forget the poor french !
Someone here was praising the CAA system where you just show up, have a nice little chat with a nice civil servant and walk away with whatever level they feel like giving you.
You can't possibly imagine a pilot walking into.........let's say Toulouse and request to be assessed by the local " bureau de piste " person on the spot, can you ??:)

[BALLSOUT]

What's an FRTOL?

[Me Myself]

Richatom

5) Easy peasy : Negative speed restriction

[richatom]

What's an FRTOL?


Flight Radio Telephony Operator's Licence - the UK CAA equivalent to FCL1.200.

Having listened to 5 three or four times, I can now make out that he is saying "negative speed restriction", though even knowing the answer it took a few listens before I could correlate the known answer to what I heard.

Me Myself:
Your written English is ok but flawed, and I would guess that you are not a native speaker. Am I right?

As "Life is a Beech" points out, the French DGAC test is geared to native French speakers who have English as a second language, not the likes of me who have English as a first language and French as a second language. So perhaps there is a lesson to be learnt there for the DGAC and other national authorities. I read elsewhere on Pprune of an English pilot who was only scored level 4 in Germany, so perhaps the problem is not limited to France.

Incidentally, any of you who don't speak fluent French would probably be scored level 1 in English if you were to take that exam, as much of the exam is in French language.

[Me Myself]

Having listened to 5 three or four times, I can now make out that he is saying "negative speed restriction", though even knowing the answer it took a few listens before I could correlate the known answer to what I heard.

Me Myself:
Your written English is ok but flawed, and I would guess that you are not a native speaker. Am I right?


Rich

As flawed as my english may be, I picked it the first time. You might want to click the following link http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=320977 which will allow you to do a bit of editing, specially spelling and grammar.
I really do not understand what you are bitching about. French as a second language ?? So what ? All you have to do is write down what you hear in the headset. it's in english ......well in that case ( Shannon )....irish. You just have to read the instructions ( in french ) for the so called " voyage fictif " It certainly doesn't take a master at La Sorbonne to understand what is required of you.
Does having to translate " Vous constatez de larges échos sur votre radar et vous demandez une altération de 30 deg par la gauche " seem so difficult for you ?? Do you want it written in english ?? Surely, you must be jesting !
If you have a french licence, then you took the exam in French, didn't you ? So what's this storm in a tea cup about silly instructions ?
The bit you missed out on the tape was plain english spoken by Shannon. We get that everyday. Maybe you just need a bit of practice flying, that's all.
Incidentally, any of you who don't speak fluent French would probably be scored level 1 in English if you were to take that exam, as much of the exam is in French language.

Now, that's a very silly remark even bordering lies. The examiners are french, the very short briefing prior to the exam is in french ( very basic ). The instructions ( super basic ) for the " voyage fictif " are in french and the " emergency situation " you have to decribe to your colleague is in french. All the rest is plain good english. I mean, you don't need to be rocket scientist to fill in blanks, do you ?? So all in all, yes, you have to be able to speak and understand french. How on earth did you manage to get yourself a french licence ? It's not exactly easy and requires a very good command of the language. If you choose to live and work in a country, be it Germany or France, you must accept to be asked to operate in both languages ( at least when it comes to exams.).
Look, I think your ego just got a bit bruised here. You'll get over it.
I'm sure the vast majority of anglo's who take the test walk away with a 6 and they're not on this thread.

[Life's a Beech]

Me Myself

I think you're still mistaking the entire point here. The test is just supposed to test level of English - 6 being a native speaker. It should not relate to RT, or be made tricky due to poor annunciation or poor quality of reproduction.

[Me Myself]

It should not relate to RT, or be made tricky due to poor annunciation or poor quality of reproduction.

I totally disagree mate. The test, no matter how imperfect it is, isn't tricky. What you get to hear is the EXACT reflexion of what you get on a real flight. Poor annunciation ?? That was coming from either London, Shannon or US ATC. How much more english can it be ?. Try Mumbaï or Karachi and you'll have your hands full !!!
The emergency situation test does require of you a total command of english or you end up speaking pigeon english just like I heard the other day. At least in this particular case it should be a piece of cake for a native, even if not used to R/T. Can't understand why not.
I am baffled to hear that native english speakers can't even understand a short message like " sqawk alpha........." or " negative speed restriction " when ploddering french pilots can !
What is being tested is not only the ability to speak english but also the R/T profeciency. Don't forget this test replaces what used to be called " Qualification RADIO internationale " by the french authorities. See, you got both, R/T and english.

It seems to me, reading from the various profiles, that a significant number of " wingers " are rather inexperienced in the business. This alone would explain the difficulties experienced with filling the blanks.

[planoramix]

A non native english speaker having lived for some years both in the UK and USA I feel quite comfortable with the language. Although far from perfect my spoken English usually makes me a target of the following question:
"are You canadian?" or else "are You from new Zealand?"

Presently flying for a non European airline I took the test and scored 5.
The instructions given prior to the test needed to be strictly followed and an high level of concentration maintained thoughout.

Considering that english in one of the two official languages ot the Country
I was surprised to see that about 20% of the native pilots failed.
The test system must have given great consideration to the "non british" accent and intonation of the candidates.

The same candidates were given a retest but (nearly) all failed again.
Waiting for further evaluation by another certificating agency pilots with negative results cannot be rostered together.

Only exception is a german pilot that having failed both tests went on a trip home to get a nice 4 from the Gernan Authority on the JAR license and is now back happily flying unrestricted.:=


were's the catch?

[Me Myself]

Presently flying for a non European airline I took the test and scored 5.
The instructions given prior to the test needed to be strictly followed and an high level of concentration maintained thoughout.




Precisely my point ! Is this in Canada ?

[Mr_Bigchopper]

You should try talking to Lakenheath ATC. There's a guy there who speaks high speed American R/T lingo.... Haven't got a damn clue what he's telling me... Any attempts to slow him down doesn't end up with anything much better!:sad:

[jshg]

But that is the fashion Over There. Speak very quickly,lots of instructions at once, in a monotone - it's macho.

[Mr_Bigchopper]

Yeeeeaah Baby (What?)

....did ya copy thaaat?

[rjakw]

Captain Biggles went right back to school,
Every two years, to speak by the rule.
He crammed for his Inglisch,
And learned some more Chinglish-
Now with rules, he has quite blown his cool

Nini Davies, 2008.

[Me Myself]

Maybe this would solve everything ??
I just pasted it from another thread. Originally posted by FrequentSLF.

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy.

The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensibl riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas."

[zizilapop]

I am not a native english speaker and I got level 5. That's ok. Big BUT is that here in Qatar those who have english passports no matter where they originally come from they got automatically level 6 and the qataris too got level 6.
there are some pilots I know that speak very good english got 4 and 5.
There some whose english is poor and they manged 6...
me not knoween 6 floor got how ? = 6:=
ask ICAO.

[Cusco]

Richatom:

It's as plain as plain that it's 'negative speed restriction'

Now you'll probably take this the wrong way but most forms of hearing loss either due to age or acoustic trauma start with high frequency loss.

Consonants are typically the first to go: mebbe an audiogram might pinpoint a problem: you'd be surprised how many peeps who think their hearing is good in fact have 20-25dB loss especially in the higher frequency range.

Having heard the tapes though I agree it's a bloody stupid test if you're supposed to write the stuff down verbatim complete with non-ICAO errors.

Cusco;)