Reality Check

[Capt Roo]

Good article in the NYT about the disillusionment in store for young people who want to join our profession.

click here for full article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/10/business/10pilots.html?em&ex=1207972800&en=6341edad2efd009b&ei=5087%0A)

Sad but true.

PS If posted earlier my apologies.

[ShortfinalFred]

Major Disaster.

I've enjoyed my time but I would not go into it from scratch today, and I doubt many young people will either unless things improve - which they never seem to.

There you go 411a - who'se gonna crew your shiny Tristars, (or whatever they were meant to be) now? Wages low enough when the pilot lives off food stamps, are they? Go on, tell me they're too high, that a P1 must get paid the same as a Loader or a Steward or Stewardess - go on, I know you want to!

Or are you part of the lot that can't wait for flying to become like a gardner in California, likely to be from abroad and sending money home whilst sharing an appartment with loads of other gardners? (No disrespect intended to people in that position).

[parabellum]

Twenty days off a month?:rolleyes:

Never seen anything approaching that in thirty six years.

[Ixixly]

As a student pilot myself seeing these sorts of things makes me doubt what i'm doing to some degree. Luckily though being a pilot is one of the only things i think i'll be truly happy doing for the moment and i think thats what keeps a lot of us in this gig.

As bad as the pay may get or be reported as i still hear there are a lot of good opportunities out there for those of us willing to take the chance and i'd like to think that i won't regret taking the chance!

[TAP]

My sibling works in the city. He takes home twice as much as I do now, and will eventually earn far more. However, he still sits down with me over a quiet beer and tells me what a great life I have chosen as a pilot.

The rat race sucks. Up at 5am EVERYDAY. Train and tube in cramp horrible conditions. A small walk to the office upon which entering to the same back stabbing, high pressured enviroment. After puttinng up with office life (and i do suspect a few moaners on this site have never had the misfortune to work in an office) for 9 hours (if you're lucky!) Its the same journey home to get enough sleep to start the next working day.

Yes; our T's and C's are not as good as they used to be. But look at other jobs. The world is run by accountants so cost cutting in all industries is happening. Fact. Its rare for a private sector company to transport employees in business!

We have a fantastic job. Its better than every job out there and we earn far more than average. Unless you make a major cock up you will leave your work behind at the park brake and in my mind that's worth a lot of cash!

Its Friday now and im off shopping without any queue's.:ok:

[Mungo Man]

I agree with you entirely TAP, but maybe we have got it better over here in the UK than the States...


A typical day had her up at 5 a.m., at the airport by 8 a.m., and making three flights spread out so that the last one landed about 10 p.m. Then it was wait for a hotel shuttle; sleep; get up again at 6 a.m.


Well this isn't even legal is it? Maybe it is in the States, but over here a typical day would be up at 5am, airport by 6am. Take off 7am. 4 sectors home by 3pm.

Parabellum said:
Twenty days off a month?:rolleyes:
Never seen anything approaching that in thirty six years.

Who do you work for P? I have 12 days off this month which is about usual, plus annual leave. Still do 650hrs a year.

My brother is a teacher in a good private school and I earn more than him already. Sure he gets big holidays, but he works hard 6 days a week including evenings during term time. He is envious of my job.

Maybe its all what you make of it...

[hec7or]

While this job beats office work any day, it's also true that as well as Ts & Cs obeying the law of gravity, new guys and gals pay a huge sum upfront to get into the RHS and cannot look forward to a comfy final salary pension any more so we lose out at both ends of the life cycle of the career.

I'm not so sure about the middle bit either!

[VAFFPAX]

Very often, if you enjoy doing what you do, pay doesn't matter. You take a hit financially just to be able to do what you love most. It's when reality eventually hits that you realise that you have to either start making a good living off what you do or pack it in and call it a day.

I don't know which is worse.

S.

[Dont Hang Up]

What is worst is when you find both the pay and the job satisfaction being erroded together. The modern management philosophy (not just in the airlines but generally) is 'if they aint scared for their jobs then they won't be operating at best efficiency'

[Mark1234]

TAP eloquently puts what I think every time I read one of these threads: I'm in the ratrace, and wishing I'd not given up on the idea of flying as a career in my youth. 'Errosion of T&C' is not just part of your industry, it's symptomatic of the modern world - it sucks pretty much across the board.

Plenty of friends with airline jobs, and I'm still thinking about jumping. It's not all roses I know, but it does have it's good sides too.

[400drvr]

I agree TAP, but I can tell you I would advise a young person against going into the disfunctional life style that is aviation. I'm sure most of us got into this business because we once loved everything aviation, now it's a job and for me it's still the only job I ever wanted.:(

[BANANASBANANAS]

When I left my previous company I had a long chat with our Director of Flight Operations who was, himself, shortly to retire.

He told me that if he had a son he would do everything in his power to steer him away from a career in aviation. Says it all I think. The good days are gone and they ain't coming back anytime soon.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

OK. T's and C's could improve. Was there ever a time when that wasn't true?

I've worked for a living, in the past.

Now I fly.

:rolleyes:

[interpreter]

Careful guys. This is rapidly developing into a "grass is greener etc..." debate. Do what you want to do - regardless of the pay. Yes, some jobs demand sacrifices and others lesser rewards but to do that which you most enjoy is very fortunate indeed.

I was granted a permanent commission as a pilot in the Royal Air Force in 1961 at the age of 22 but turned it down at the very point of signing. Whisked of to Air Ministry to be told what a chump I was but then thanked for having saved them a great deal of money if I had dropped out later. Went into the finance industry, paid for my own PPL and never regretted anything.

If you find something you really want to do -DO IT!

Only pilots know that in the depths of a British winter they will rise above the clouds into blue sky and sunshine. You lucky b.........s.

[gone till november]

TAP

At last the voice of reason. Well said.

I spent years looking up at passing a/c and wished and prayed to be up there and i can wholeheartedly say that ive never once looked down wishing i was in that shiny office ive just flown over.

Yes T & C probably have come down but i still earn enough to live on and enjoy my free time.

All those who bemoan the supposed reduced T & C's ask yourself this. Would your airline be in business with oil and other associated cost at the price that they are if there isnt a little bit of give and take.

The problem is that managers are only after share price which goes up when costs are low and the workers only want to earn more for doing less (come on we all would) which drives down share price. Somewhere in the middle is the correct path.

That is not to say that the likes of FR arent taking the piss but i'd rather have an OECD pay rise rather than demand a big one that puts the long term viability of the business in doubt.

Some people have just got used to getting what they want and are having trouble adjusting to this brave new world of "you get a little if you give a little"........Ryanair excepting.

If i had kids would i want them to come into this game.......most definitely if its for the love of the job. If they want to earn a decent salary......of course. If they want to become rich.......not a chance

[Caudillo]

Not necessarily a case of the grass being greener - I think the last quote from the girl that quit flying is very telling:

" “Normal job. Normal life,” she said. “I know I made the right decision.” "

[VAFFPAX]

What is worst is when you find both the pay and the job satisfaction being erroded together. The modern management philosophy (not just in the airlines but generally) is 'if they aint scared for their jobs then they won't be operating at best efficiency'
Dont Hang up, that is symptomatic of all sectors of industry. It is just a case of your personal level of comfort at erosion on T&C's that makes you look elsewhere. Some people can comfortably live with high levels, others don't because of various circumstances.

I personally am very sensitive to changes in my T&C, not necessarily because of pay, but more of satisfaction and the like. Once a job starts to suck, I switch elsewhere where there are new things to learn and experience, hopefully with a bit of a raise and some nice non-monetary bennies included.

S.

[rcl7700]

There are no great jobs left out there in any industry, especially right out of school. Gotta do what you love. All the roads are rocky, not just aviation.

rcl

[Check Airman]

Nice to see an article that doesn't paint teh under-worked and over-paid picture. I don't think it's the MOST accurate view though. They looked at people from Mesa and Pinnacle. Those 2 regionals are widely known to have the pretty much the worst work rules and pay.

The industry certainly isn't as good as it could/should be, but I don't think it's all as bad as the NYT made it seem.

[Cyclone733]

Sounds like some of the newer Ryanair FOs fresh out of training with their £70,000 initial course and £25,000 type ratings will be enjoying a winter working outside of the industry at this rate.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322250

Are the skills learnt as a pilot transferable to other professions? I've heard of qualified people, dentists and the like moving back to their old careers, but what does 10 years spent on the flightdeck offer to other employers?

[Jetgate]

'A typical day had her up at 5 a.m., at the airport by 8 a.m., and making three flights spread out so that the last one landed about 10 p.m. Then it was wait for a hotel shuttle; sleep; get up again at 6 a.m.'

...there must be a FTL scheme in the US?

[chefrp]

If anything this article in the NYTimes highlights that many in your proffesion are underpaid. I think this will surprise many customers. After all everyone assumes the person flying the plane is well compensated, happy, experienced ect....

Things can only change though when people start caring about service and safety and not just about the cheapest ticket from point A to point B.
Not everyone is a freak like me who likes to pick the airline, and the plane, and if I could the person flying it... :cool:

Afterall our safety is in your hands........we as customers should start respecting that.

[drivez]

I am currently a high school student. I am doing well at school and I have recently taken my first steps toward hopefully a career in aviation. I have been for, as long as I can remember been obsessed with aviation. I can see no other workplace other than the skies for myself. However my dream seems to become further out of reach the more I research.

I have reasearched the different routes I can take such as sponsorship, Military service, and paying for myself. My parents seem to disfavour the military route with todays climate, but I actually would'nt mind joining the RAF. Unless I win the lottery I doubt that I could afford to sponsor myself without years of debt. With more and more airlines closing their sponsorship and training I am left wondering how am I going to achieve my dreams.

However just recently I have taken the opinion that. I will become a pilot. I have decided that if I really want to do this, then I will do anything to achieve this. (Maybe a slightly naive outlook) I have decided that I will approach this challenge with the attitude that I will get the sponsorships, I will be the one that gets hired. Even if i have to live on the streets to pay for training and leave school at 6 to work the night shift, or mow lawns. I will become a pilot. With this attitude no newspaper article will ever make me reconsider achieving my dreams or lowering my goals.

If i really want this, then i will.

(first post)

[rcl7700]

Like many already said, the article was written to shock the reader. I'm sure that there is truth in it, but it is meant to scare rather than inform. I don't think we would have to do much research to find people with graduate degrees who are unemployed/ underemployed and in debt. Follow your dreams don't base your decisions on what some idiot wrote.

rcl

[Capt Roo]

Nice to have started a decent discussion.

Aviation has been good to my generation, but I think we saw the best of it. My son wants to fly, he's still very young but the costs of the training is a burden even on my expat salary. How can a young person pay for themselves?

There are jobs now down here, but for how long? And how long before the T&Cs approach US levels? Sleep in the cabin between flights when flying a jet? OMG as the kids would say. I thought that went out with bush flying - which was mainly daylight anyway.

I'm trying to channel my kids into a skill-based job that is not office-based and can give them the chance to work for themselves later on. The way world is going, most jobs will be out-sourced to some cheaper part of the world, unless it requires being done in-country. Many office jobs will just disappear.

Feel for the next generation - it is going to be tough out there. Feel for mine too, when the heck can we retire? Never to the level of comfort our parents had I fear.

[MarkerInbound]

Jetgate,

Depends on the rules, 8 hours of flying in 15 duty hours, can be bumped to 16 if the next day is scheduled for 14.

[mid_life_pilot]

Are the skills learnt as a pilot transferable to other professions? I've heard of qualified people, dentists and the like moving back to their old careers, but what does 10 years spent on the flightdeck offer to other employers?

I would say so, predominantly CRM and being a team player with any PIC time showing good leadership etc. Like most jobs out there the basic requirements are the same, just the speciality that sets them apart. I currently work as a Release Manager in IT having worked my way up from customer services but it was the customer services skills that formed 60% of the job requirements with IT knowledge forming the remainder!

When it comes to T&C's though, as rcl7700 says All the roads are rocky, not just aviation. - couldn't agree more. I used to work for Abbey Life who were bought by Santander, then sold to Resolution who then outsourced us to Capita. Whilst my T&C's were all the time protected by TUPE if I want to move up in the company I have to surrender my protected terms and move to a Capita contract that has significantly less favourable terms than what I have now (less holidays, more contractual hours, less overtime pay, minimum redundancy terms).

So in short I agree whole heartedly with people that says stick with a job that you love doing - hence why I am planning a move into aviation because I have no job satisfaction at the moment and the 9-5 routine is a killer along with a sore neck from looking at the planes buzzing overhead!

[peterporker]

Having been an airline capt in both the US and Europe, I can say that the article is very accurate from an America pilot's viewpoint. The flight and duty limitations in the US are very unsafe. One can legally be on duty for 16 hours/8 hours flight and only required to be away from the airport (not necessarily at home or in a hotel) for 8 hours. You can legally do the 16on/8off duty for six days in a row and believe me when I say that crewing takes full advantage of this. Legal does not equal safe. The pay in the US is truly horrible. I doubled my salary by coming to work in Europe. As an fo on the ATR I made $500/week and as a capt I made $860/week with no add ons such as duty pay/sector pay etc. I work in Europe now because I couldn't make a living flying in the US. Unfortunately I see Europpean airlines T & C's following those in the US instead of the other way around. The amount of pilots leaving the industry in the US is unbelievable, in fact I am the only person from my flight school still flying professionally and I would have quit except for the fact that I fould a good contract gig overseas. I can honestly say that when I move back to the US I will be changing careers to something non-aviation. Flying is still a good job in Europe but (and I truly hope that I'm wrong) I feel that it will soon become more like in the US.

[Aelkobi]

Hah, and there I was, just going to get all dreamy about it and jack in my current job to move into the aviation industry.... where I have always longed to be.
Not any more I'm afraid... PPL will do nicely thankyou and I can keep my $20k/month job:p.
Minimal responsibility, late start, early finish - take the day off if I like.. take the week off if I want !!

Thanks for the wake-up call lads n lassies;), I dont know what I was thinking of :confused:.

Happy & safe flying to you all...

Aelkobi.

[Mac the Knife]

"......$20k/month job. Minimal responsibility, late start, early finish - take the day off if I like.. take the week off if I want !!"

Wish I had a job like that!

When can I start?

:sad:

[Flare-Idle]

Capt Roo

Convince your kid(s) to go first for a profound university education to get a BSc or MSc and subsequently a few years of experience in any kind of industry. Forms their character, provides them with a plan "B" in case professional flying turns out to be a dead end and fills their pockets with valuable cash in order to pay for the CPL/IR/Multi/frozenATPL by themselves. Prepares them much better for the world out there than the kids where daddy payed everything for a "seamless" aviation career. Additionally, having worked in a different environment BEFORE joining an aviation career enables them to see pros and cons of both sides.
An aviation career IMHO is still a great, yet sometimes hard and difficult way to work. There are however too many people out there who are constantly moaning and complaining with either no will or option to change their situation.
Enable your kids to have a good plan "B" while following plan "A".

All the best for you and your family


Flare

[beachbumflyer]

If you want to enjoy flying again, retire early and buy a seaplane.
I retired early and I am thinking about buying a seaplane. :)

[INNflight]

I guess that figure is taken from the most fancy FTO they found, and after adding a SSTR the student paid for?

Now, I'm also only in training, but I pay 35k (US Dollars) for PPL, CPL and ATPL incl. 150hrs ME time. Add another 10-15k for living cheaply during these 6-8 months in the States and a bit for the FAA/JAA conversion and it adds up to roughly 50-55k US Dollars.

Don't get me wrong, it's a whole L O T of money.......but invested in what I want to do SO BADLY after all, and the fancy private university fees for 3-4 years of studying aren't small either.

I work a c**p job at the moment to earn my training, and the only thing that keeps me driving to work at 6am six days a week is the outlook to do it for flying. Guess I'm tooooo naive heh.... :E