Online Flight Plan Filing

[robinpiper]

Just visited the NATS website www.flightplanningonline.co.uk (http://www.flightplanningonline.co.uk) to register for the AFPEx service.

It's about time the UK had a internet based flight planning system.

My trouble is after completing the online form my computer opened my microsoft outlook program to send it. The email I sent contained no message just a blank page without any attachments.

Have I sent them the application form or just a blank email?!?

Anybody else experienced this?

[niknak]

Its not very clear, but when you initially click on the individual or company application form, you can either open it or save it, if you opt to save you can store it either on your desktop or in my documents, then complete it and send it as an email attachment.
Equally you can open it and then do the same.

I can't see why that wouldn't work, but nothing in the land of the CAA/NATS is simple...:confused:

[LH2]

Hmm... isn't it a bit overkill to have a discrete AFTN address for each user? Can't think of any real need for that from the point of view of individual pilots, or even aeroclubs... maybe handy for smaller fields without an existing AFTN connection, but other than that it's over the top. It's going to cause problems, I bet.

Not criticising just for the sake of it, but I think I prefer the French approach, which is simplicity at its best... no need to register or remember a password or anything like that, just fill in the boxes, read the briefing info, and fire it off. Paris takes care of the rest.

Plus why would they need my full personal details, or for that matter anything beyond what needs to go on the flight plan? Remember the KISS principle, chaps.

[VFR Transit]

I am a student and am about to plan a flight over to LE2K to complete my cross channel checkout on club aircraft, However it is me who needs to complete the flight plan and I can't register for an account.

How crap

VFR

[IO540]

VFR Transit

I am a student and am about to plan a flight over to LE2K to complete my cross channel checkout on club aircraft, However it is me who needs to complete the flight plan and I can't register for an account

You have mis-understood. The NATS facility under discussion is a future thing. The UK has never before had an online flight plan filing facility, so this is a very desirable thing.

To file a flight plan for your flight to LTQ today, you should consult your instructor. You will file it using the present means, which usually means filling in the flight plan form and handing it to the tower.

[VFR Transit]

Arghhh WILCO

Thanks for that

VFR

[IO540]

isn't it a bit overkill to have a discrete AFTN address for each user?

Sure is, but that's the deal and I don't think it will bother anybody.

Olivia is OK but is not supposed to work for flights wholly outside France. The NATS site should work for anywhere, so you can be in Bongo Bongo Land, in an internet cafe, and you can file a flight plan to the Peoples' Democratic Republic next door :) Only the one website to remember, only one login, only one interface.

Pilots have recently been using Homebriefing.com (based in Vienna) for this purpose, but they have just restricted the max # of flight plans wholly outside Austria/Switzerland to 10 per year. I have just renewed my annual HB sub and curiously they don't appear to say how they will charge once you go over the 10. Maybe they just reserve the right to charge for them, in case of people filing loads of flight plans (which I am sure some users are doing; the 37 Euros is a great deal for unlimited flight plans).

What I do wonder about is what will happen with the NATS site when some UK pilot enters a really funny route, with the names of various villages. Some people do actually do that. I don't know how Heathrow used to handle that. Maybe they just typed in whatever the pilot wrote - what else could they do? I have never tried that with Homebriefing and I am not about to - I always navigate fully IFR even if flying VFR. But this could cause a problem if the NATS site does any waypoint validation. OTOH pilots are supposed to get notams and the ais.org.uk Narrow Route Briefing never allowed weird route descriptions anyway; you have to stick to the ICAO route description.

[dublinpilot]

What I do wonder about is what will happen with the NATS site when some UK pilot enters a really funny route, with the names of various villages. Some people do actually do that.

That's exactly what I do for domestic (Irish airspace only) flight plans. It was what I was thought to do, before I knew any better. One day I got a phone call from AIS asking where a particular town that I'd put on my flight plan was, and they changed it to the nearest IFR Waypoint. So I assumed that that is what they do with all such towns...change it to the nearest recognised waypoint or beacon.

However subsequent to that, I had a visit to Dublin ATC, and they showed me all the stuff that they could see on their radar screens, including my filed flight plan info, and that did indeed show all the town names that was included on the route, not just recognised waypoints.

[belowradar]

Have a look at Homebriefing.com

great web based flight plan service and very modest cost for the year

[pelagic]

IO540 "I don't know how Heathrow used to handle that..."

probably in the same way that they are as of right now - they are still fully operational, despite anything you, or AFPEx, may say or think to the contrary. IIRC, didn't you say previously that you've never used Heathrow FBU?:ugh:

VFR Transit - file your FPL just like IO has suggested, or, if you are within Heathrow's area of responsibility, maybe give them a call and file it yourself over the phone? The 'present means' works very well, thank you very much!

[IO540]

IO540 "I don't know how Heathrow used to handle that..."

probably in the same way that they are as of right now - they are still fully operational, despite anything you, or AFPEx, may say or think to the contrary. IIRC, didn't you say previously that you've never used Heathrow FBU?

Oh dear, Pelagic, here we go again, you grinding that silly axe. You must be some trade union chap from Heathrow. What did I say "to the contrary"??

I've never faxed an FP to Heathrow but from what I have read/heard, most UK airports have been faxing FPs (filed at their towers) to Heathrow. Mostly VFR ones, that is.

[pelagic]

IO - you are completely missing the points I am trying to make here.

Anybody who wants to continue to file using NATS' current fax/phone system will not get a choice in the matter - its going to be AFPEx or nothing. Also, I know that the system works - there are areas within AFPEx where I remain to be convinced, especially when it comes to areas of responsibility. The 'experienced human element' available from the FBUs will also be removed. Having both systems available is preferable.

Heathrow Trade Union chap? :rolleyes: Sorry to disappoint. (I could probably afford my own plane if I was!)

[tingtang]

Is this new NATS system supposed to work like the FAA DUATS system?

I've done a few hundred hours both VRF and IFR in the US and DUATS is basically a one-stop shop (i.e. includes weather/notams/routes/briefings etc) for flight planning both domestic and international, and it's all online.

That's what we need over here, don't we??

[dublinpilot]

Anybody who wants to continue to file using NATS' current fax/phone system will not get a choice in the matter - its going to be AFPEx or nothing.

Are you sure about that? I tried to register for AFPEx and was rejected because I'm not UK resident, even though I have the need to lodge flight plans within the UK, for my international flights leaving the UK and returning back to Ireland, or onward to Europe.

The response I got back was that I could continue to use Heathrow and file by fax.

Are you sure Heathrow FBU is going to be closed? If it is, how are visiting and transit pilots supposed to file flight plans?

[IO540]

dublinpilot

Your best bet will be homebriefing.com

tingtang

I've done a few hundred hours both VRF and IFR in the US and DUATS is basically a one-stop shop (i.e. includes weather/notams/routes/briefings etc) for flight planning both domestic and international, and it's all online.


We are a long way from that here in Europe and it will probably never happen. GA is just not big enough here, by one or two orders of magnitude, and the vast majority of private pilots don't go far enough to need it. Also Europe does not have a unified flying environment like the USA. VFR flights have to work they way around CAS, occassionally getting transits, whereas in the USA you can get C/D transits easily (generally). IFR flights need the Eurocontrol routings for which there is no publicly accessible and officially up to date autorouting tool. Weather is fragmented across Europe - the only unified services are tafs/metars and some basic charts like the sigwx.

But in practice there isn't a problem - you just need a collection of websites and then you can develop IFR routes, file VFR or IFR flight plans, get weather, get notams, etc.

On top of that we have PPR for many airports :yuk: and there is no way around that - you have to phone (in a foreign language) or fax (and wait for the reply).

[tingtang]

IO540 - answer understood, i guess i was just hoping. But any improvements like this new NATS system has to be the right way forward so hopefully it will be a success. Thanks.

[dublinpilot]

dublinpilot

Your best bet will be homebriefing.com


For French ones, I just file with Olivia.

For Irish or UK ones, the girls in Shannon are very helpful ;)

Outside that I've occasionaly used hombriefing.com (which you were kind enough to tell me about years ago ;) )or emailed Shannon.

I've not really had a difficulty filing flight plans. My point was more that AFPEx said that the facility to file via Heathrow would continue. As far as I can see it must continue for the UK to be able to meet it's obligations to accept flight plans from passing traffic.

I can't see Heathrow closing, and was just asking pelagic if he was sure that they are closing.

[IO540]

Actually I think it is IFR flight plans that benefit more from online filing.

That's because a VFR flight plan cannot (in modern Europe) be refused. Nobody checks the route for validity, for CAS infringement, whatever. You could file a VFR FP right across the UK at FL100.

But an IFR one can be refused for various reasons, which is why a rapid online facility is very desirable, so you can tell right away if there is a problem.

And an online facility is handy anyway because you can get the notams (for which internet is mandatory anyway) and file the flight plan in one session.

[scooter boy]

I will certainly miss this service.
Having filed many a verbal flight plan on the mobile on the way to the airport (or sitting in the aircraft) HFC have provided me with an excellent level of service over the years.
Last time I used it was yesterday for a short-notice fuel run to Jersey.
The plan was in the system immediately and I had no delay in getting airborne.

The online stuff is fine if you have connectivity - I rarely get the chance to file whilst sitting in front of the computer (such is my way of life), the verbal FP route suited me well.

I occasionally get to send a fax to HFC (usually at an ungodly hour on the night before departure) and invariably would be telephoned with a polite confirmation of acceptance or query.

Shame to see it go,
SB

[LH2]

That's because a VFR flight plan cannot (in modern Europe) be refused

Could you develop a bit on that? I haven't had one refused so far, but my understanding is that it can, for a host of things, such as PPR not requested/obtained when necessary, airfield being closed or unable to accommodate your flight, wrong FPL information, etc., etc.


I will certainly miss this service.
Having filed many a verbal flight plan on the mobile on the way to the airport

:confused: That's that mean that you cannot just phone up any airport in the UK and ask them to file in a flight plan for you?

[bookworm]

That's because a VFR flight plan cannot (in modern Europe) be refused.

15 years ago I had a German AIS person (at an airport) reject my VFR flight plan because there were 40 flying minutes between two waypoints. I have a feeling he was just bored though. ;)

[IO540]

Could you develop a bit on that? I haven't had one refused so far, but my understanding is that it can, for a host of things, such as PPR not requested/obtained when necessary, airfield being closed or unable to accommodate your flight, wrong FPL information, etc., etc.

PPR is not related to flight plans - well not usually. I have come across some airports (not UK) where they tell you that the receipt of the FP is good enough for PPR, Customs, etc.

It's a pretty obvious thing to do, of course, but aviation is not renowned for non anally retarded people. In Italy, you can file a flight plan to some airport with a 3hr Customs PPR, fly there 24hrs later, and they will still refuse you a clearance to land. A phone or fax is the only way. The fact that the monkey who receives the phone/fax also has a terminal on his desk showing inbound flight plans, is irrelevant.

Nobody checks airfield opening hours versus the FP.

Wrong FP info... perhaps but how wrong? What can be wrong?

The only time I have had a VFR FP refused was when I filed one through Montenegro airspace - they wanted to change the routing (just a different set of airways intersections) and then it was fine.

As bookworm points out, it is possible for somebody at the receiving end to actually look at the FP (rare as this is in reality) and realise there is something wrong, and try to contact the pilot, telling him that e.g. his route passes through an active RA. I have never come across this though, myself. The problem would be how to contact the pilot. The facility which files the FP for him usually has no way to contact him. I don't know whether homebriefing.com would pass a message back; based on a situation I had last year I don't think they do pass anything back beyond the standard accept/refuse.

[LH2]

PPR is not related to flight plans

Yes I know, but I was thinking of a specific instance of an airport which at the time I flew there was notamed as PPR. They said I didn't need to call as such, just file a flight plan and if it wasn't rejected (by them) I was good to go.

Nobody checks airfield opening hours versus the FP.

Hmm... the receiving ATS unit does, in my experience. Although perhaps not consistently, if that's what you mean.

Wrong FP info... perhaps but how wrong? What can be wrong?

Again in my experience, wrong ICAO identifiers, wrong ETA, wrong endurance for the type, and wrong survival equipment info. Maybe it's just where I fly that people seem to actually look at flight plans (which is reassuring)

The problem would be how to contact the pilot

Whenever possible I include my telephone number as a RMK/ on field 18, makes things a lot easier (and potentially cheaper) should anything happen. The French will always ask you for a phone number when filing in on the phone, I thought that was a good idea and started doing it everywhere else.

[IO540]

Yes I know, but I was thinking of a specific instance of an airport which at the time I flew there was notamed as PPR. They said I didn't need to call as such, just file a flight plan and if it wasn't rejected (by them) I was good to go.None I know of in the UK that do that, but I have come across this outside. Obviously, this is how it should work.

Again in my experience, wrong ICAO identifiers, wrong ETA, wrong endurance for the type, and wrong survival equipment info. Maybe it's just where I fly that people seem to actually look at flight plans (which is reassuring)OK, a totally duff ICAO ident should get rejected because the person doing the addressing cannot work out who to address the FP to. Wrong ETA does not get checked in the UK. Wrong endurance for the type would be clever but I am sure it does not get checked here either, and you would need a massive error margin because merely leaning the mixture correctly will extend endurance by 1/3 over the standard UK PPL (don't play with the red lever) training.

On IFR flight plans, the Eurocontrol computer checks your flight planned ETE against the computed ETE (based on your flight planned speed and flight planned route) and chucks out the FP if there is a discrepancy of more than about 30% or so. But an IFR FP gets chucked out immediately (or not) by the computer. VFR flight plans are not checked automatically.

Whenever possible I include my telephone number as a RMK/ on field 18, makes things a lot easier (and potentially cheaper) should anything happen.I agree and do the same but I have never had anybody call me - ever. And nearly all my flight plans are on flights with at least one end outside the UK.

[pelagic]

Dublinpilot

re "I can't see Heathrow closing"

if you check out the ais.org.uk website, you will find a reference to AFPEx telling you to look at supplement S7/2008, dated 27March08. I have read this document, and it states "..Parental AFTN function will no longer be available at Scottish Centre, Manchester and Heathrow"

Reading through the document, it also states that Swanwick is going to take over the handling of FPL faxes, although the fax number is not given. Doesn't say whether or not you can file a FPL over the phone as you can now. As of today, Heathrow was still accepting FPLs. (Presumably they have not officially been told that they will shortly be defunct. :sad: )

My last word on this - I said in earlier posts that I had been told that this was more than just NATS offering us a new addition to the flight planning service. Now it looks like Heathrow FBU, (amongst others) which has served the GA community very well over the years, has been shafted up the a*se by their own colleagues - no wonder SwanFIS and FlyUk have shut up shop on here.

"Et tu, Brute?" :hmm:

[IO540]

If the closure of the Heathrow FBU is the price of having online flight plan filing (which UK pilots have been asking for for as many years as the internet has been around, and particularly since ais.org.uk came online with the flight plan filing option so obviously deliberately unimplemented) then that amounts to worthwhile progress, IMHO.

Anyway it sounds like there will be a fax# after all.

Incidentally, regarding homebriefing.com, has anyone seen a pricing structure for non-Austria/Swiss flight plans beyond the 10/year limit? It was speculated they will charge them at Euro 3.70 each but I cannot see this on their website. Maybe they just raised this to enable them to handle the cases of people filing huge numbers of flight plans; something which their Euro 37/year flat rate must have encouraged.... Anyway I think the 10/year limit (if it indeed is a limit) within the E37 will do most UK pilots' foreign flight plan requirements.

[John Hill]

Regarding the allocation of an AFTN address to each FPL filer. In one former East European country you can file FPLs and get OPMET and NOTAM briefings etc online but like the prudent folks they are the connection from the 'online' computer system (that the user can see) to their internal systems is via a very narrow 'pipe' which is basically a single AFTN channel. In their case the AFTN address is automatically assigned and will expire and be re-assigned in the fullness of time. I believe the same country has the option for trusted users to be assigned an enduring AFTN address so that in effect they have a full AFTN terminal available on their own PC.

How do I know this? Well, we wrote the software... which leads onto another question, one that I am sometimes asked though I have not yet been able to help anyone. The question is, 'Is there any online service where world-roaming aviators can file FPLs no matter which country they are flying in, to or from?

[IO540]

The question is, 'Is there any online service where world-roaming aviators can file FPLs no matter which country they are flying in, to or from?

www.homebriefing.com (http://www.homebriefing.com)

However, there are other services. For example Jeppesen provide a comprehensive flight support package, and I believe this is what business jets etc tend to use. This will include flight plan filing.

You can also get flight plans filed via the handling company at the airport you are at. This may not be convenient however, as one would normally try to file the flight plan for the next leg the night before departure, so that any rejections can be dealt with in plenty of time, rather than an hour before the planned departure...

[mm_flynn]

I agree and do the same but I have never had anybody call me - ever. And nearly all my flight plans are on flights with at least one end outside the UK.
I have had the nice folk at Heathrow call on a reroute and just over the weekend the nice lady at Shannon called me twice (my wife was getting suspicious ;) ) when I wrote the wrong ICAO ident for Inishmore and when I was late calling for start after a longer security process than hoped for.

Once I got their phone number the ladies of Shannon provided a very friendly and personal service (for FP filing that is!).

[John Hill]

Thanks IO540.