BA B744 engine surge!

[Gatwickba]

Was slightly confused seeing NLN taxying back to T4 earlier followed by the fire trucks and a tug.
Looked on the screen and BA009 showed airborne at 0.20hrs and it was back on the ground at about 01.40. The tug wasnt used and it taxied to 410. Whats the problem?

[Airline Tycoon]

No1 engine fire just after departure.

[Hand Solo]

No 1 engine surge after departure.

[Airline Tycoon]

No 1 engine surge after departure.

Thank you for your correction, as I witnessed a long stream of flames from the port side and the pilot reported, to us, an engine fire.

He was then tongue in cheek when he told the fire serivce his "No1 engine blew-up on take-off."

[Gatwickba]

Missed all the excitement. Only saw it taxi in while I was getting off my aircraft on 313. Thanks for the info.

[BIGBATMAN]

I was about 200m from the aircraft when it rotated and saw / heard / felt the surges. At the time considered it to be a fire the surges were closes together and created a long substained flame for a good 3-5 seconds.

The controller and myself both at the same time advised on the tower frequency that the the engine maybe on fire,
This was to advise the pilot of a visual state of the engine, no doubt he had alarms and bells going off in the cockpit anyway,after a swift Roger he contuned to declare a mayday and suspected engine fire. after dumping fuel he returned and downgraded his situation to a PAN and engine failure.

I must say being that close to the aircraft at the time on the A taxiway it did make me jump.lol

Cheers Big

[Milt]

Maybe swallowed a bird or two or something indigestible.

[Walker Texas Ranger]

I wonder why they just didnt continue on with the flight?

[FE Hoppy]

The controller and myself both at the same time advised on the tower frequency that the the engine maybe on fire,
This was to advise the pilot of a visual state of the engine, no doubt he had alarms and bells going off in the cockpit anyway,

pls just report what you see and not what you think might be happening.

no lights and bells for a surging engine. just shut it down. but if some one reports the engine on fire[it wasn't] the crew is pretty much forced to put a fire bottle in.

flames from the front or back is not the same as an engine fire.

[overstress]

There's always a fire in a jet engine ;-)

Surging is spectacular, but very easily cured.

Walker Texas Ranger - you are a troll :hmm:

[Basil]

As described it was a surge. Whilst it may or may not be an engine failure it looks and sounds pretty dramatic.
Had a three bang surge on the roll one day in a RR B747F - cleared the runway, discussed and went for another go. No problem second time.
Don't think I'd have done that in a pax a/c though :)

[stiffwing]

Sorry Basil
I don't get the distinction between pax and no pax re continuing after a surge.
Could you elaborate why it's OK to go if you have no pax?
Are you not responsible for pax AND crew ?
Or were you tongue-in-cheek? (I hope so)

[lomapaseo]

pls just report what you see and not what you think might be happening.

no lights and bells for a surging engine. just shut it down. but if some one reports the engine on fire[it wasn't] the crew is pretty much forced to put a fire bottle in.

flames from the front or back is not the same as an engine fire.

Engine surges are a common manifestation of many types of engine problems some of which are as temporary in nature as a tired engine. The flight manual for the particular engine model is based on experience in how to deal with it. In some cases it does permit continuation of flight.

The crew training should have covered the identification and response at the flight deck level. What the ground sees and hears is what has been reported above. It's up to the pilot to recognize the difference between a recoverable engine surge and an engine which is on fire and requires shutting it down or discharging a fire bottle. That's why they put engine gages in the cockpit and train pilots how to respond.

I'm not aware of what ground controlers are trained to say when they hear a bang look up and see fire and smoke trailing an aircraft. I'm glad at least that they don't just stare and bite their lip. :)

[glider insider]

I saw a 742 (might have been a 743) have a double engine surge as it powered up prior to releasing brakes. It was quite impressive. Pilot reckoned fuselage was blanking the engine intakes ( 40kt + cross wind component at the time). He was impressed how quickly the fire trucks got there, although not sure the pax were too impressed when they took off 2 hours later in same aircraft for 7 hour flight over the atlantic...

always interesting to watch, although prefer to do it from the tower than out the aircraft window

[Idle Thrust]

Stiffwing - perhaps Basil's rationale was that freight will not sue for anxiety attacks and mental anguish.

[DOVES]

That's what happens when Rainboe isn't on board!

[Basil]

stiffwing,
No, not 'tongue in cheek' - for a change ;)
Idle Thrust has pretty much got it. Experienced, professional crew discussed implications including engine damage. Decided that another attempt at take off = ground run (more or less). Stacks of runway; brakes cool since first surge at about 15kn.
I would not have wished to subject anxious passengers to a test situation which may have resulted in another surge.

Noticed fire section all suited up ready to go as we taxied past for second attempt :ok:

[sevenstrokeroll]

good one walker texas ranger:

I didn't think you were a troll...perhaps droll, but not a troll.

wondering if it was the same plane I was thinking about...way back in another more famous incident.

[overstress]

wondering if it was the same plane I was thinking about

There's a one in 57 chance that it was! :)

For the controller who transmitted that it was a fire: IMHO the pilots are busy diagnosing the surge, and then taking the appropriate action. They are in no doubt that something is wrong! Perhaps "Speedbird do you require assistance" would have worked slightly better? The answer would almost certainly be 'standby'

When we practice these drills in the sim, there is of course no-one to make such a call and we are trained just to get on with it.

Might be worth another look at the vid of the 757 at Manchester: here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRkPpFNxd-Q&feature=related)

[John Farley]

Since this is Rumour & News not the Technical Log we don’t want to overdo the technicalities associated with engine surges but, as with most experiences that have a potential to frighten, a little understanding may help to calm the nerves.

When jet engines are running normally the air makes its way through the engine in an orderly way and the flames, so essential to the thrust we love, are nicely contained out of sight in the middle of the engine.

An engine is said to have ‘surged’ (not a bad term to describe things really) whenever the orderly flow is disturbed. Rather naturally if something momentarily disturbs the way the air is flowing through the front of the engine the good flames can flicker about and become visually evident at the rear end.

The two main causes of disturbance are the intake having to swallow something physical, such as a bird, or it being affected by a sudden change in the direction of the air coming in, as we are all used to when walking about on a very windy and gusty day.

A surge makes a pronounced pop or bang (depending on your disposition) so can be unsettling unless you realise it for what it is when you can use the occasion to demonstrate how super cool you are.

The photograph shows such a transient ‘pop surge’ event with the aircraft having just left the ground on a VTO. It was out of sight to me but still evident due to the ‘pop’ which tends to be somewhat louder if you choose a seat right in front of the intakes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/Demosurge.jpg

[overstress]

John - a great explanation for the non-technically-minded! Good photo as well.

[FE Hoppy]

lomapaseo Quote:


Engine surges are a common manifestation of many types of engine problems some of which are as temporary in nature as a tired engine. The flight manual for the particular engine model is based on experience in how to deal with it. In some cases it does permit continuation of flight.

The crew training should have covered the identification and response at the flight deck level. What the ground sees and hears is what has been reported above. It's up to the pilot to recognize the difference between a recoverable engine surge and an engine which is on fire and requires shutting it down or discharging a fire bottle. That's why they put engine gages in the cockpit and train pilots how to respond.

I'm not aware of what ground controlers are trained to say when they hear a bang look up and see fire and smoke trailing an aircraft. I'm glad at least that they don't just stare and bite their lip.

I think you missed the point of my post.

Many ac have procedures for non annunciated fires. what crew would choose to ignore reports of an engine fire from fellow professionals? Thats why accurate reporting is essential.


John- great pic. burners on, go!

[Airline Tycoon]

For the controller who transmitted that it was a fire: IMHO the pilots are busy diagnosing the surge, and then taking the appropriate action. They are in no doubt that something is wrong! Perhaps "Speedbird do you require assistance" would have worked slightly better? The answer would almost certainly be 'standby'Let me just set the scene, It's dark, the aircraft is airborne from 27R and moving away from us in the Tower, as it's passing the A12 turnoff towards the western end of the runway we observed a stream of flames on the left side. The controller reported to BAW9 "fire on your left side" to which the response was "standby" after a short pause a "Mayday" followed.

We, in ATC, are not going to sit there at the time of the incident and discuss whether it was an engine surge or an engine fire or a fuel leak which has ignited, we WILL report to the pilots what we have observed. We don't expect a response of anything other than standby, we know the pilots are busy dealing with the situation. This is what comes out of our TRUCE* sessions, which pilots attend, pass the relevant info but don't hassle.

I was in the Tower a few years back when a BA 777 departed with fuel gushing from under the wing box. We told the pilots what we had observed and their response at the time was they had no abnormal indications.

*TRUCE = Training in Unusual Circumstances and Emergencies

[Lost_luggage34]

I was about 200m from the aircraft when it rotated and saw / heard / felt the surges. At the time considered it to be a fire the surges were closes together and created a long substained flame for a good 3-5 seconds.

The controller and myself both at the same time advised on the tower frequency that the the engine maybe on fire,
This was to advise the pilot of a visual state of the engine, no doubt he had alarms and bells going off in the cockpit anyway,after a swift Roger he contuned to declare a mayday and suspected engine fire. after dumping fuel he returned and downgraded his situation to a PAN and engine failure.

Yes - that is about it.

I can confirm that the Captain (possibly a former Chief Concorde person), reported a fire on or shortly after rotation.

A Mayday call was made stating that there was an engine fire.

The aircraft was vectored out to The Solent in order to dump fuel.

At that point the Captain downgraded the Mayday to a PAN.

It began dumping fuel at around 6000 feet, and in order to stay within controlled airspace it climbed to 11000 feet.

There was an initial request for an hour in a racetrack pattern for fuel dumping which was subsequently reduced to 40 minutes.

[robdean]

John's excellent photo given a polish in Photoshop

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/robhdean/harrier.jpg

[Rananim]

Am I the only one who thinks Walker Texas Ranger's question was a valid one?Or am I way too cynical?
I wasnt on the flt deck so I dont know what happened but the declaration of mayday is a very clean way to dodge the "commercial decision" accusation.
If you're a BA 744 skipper with a surge out of LHR you probably need to tread very carefully.The eyes of the world are watching.Will they do what they did out of LAX?Well,of course not.They arent going to continue,we know that for sure.But if no mayday is declared(surge followed by shutdown on a 4 engine a/c is not a mayday)then how do they get round the "dump all that fuel and return home just for a surge?"Its a tricky one...you have my sympathies.

but if some one reports the engine on fire[it wasn't] the crew is pretty much forced to put a fire bottle in.


You dont think the average BA pilot knows that onlookers will tell him his engine is on fire when he gets a surge??or when he gets a tailpipe fire?would he discharge the extinguisher then to?

[FE Hoppy]

Think about this,

Intermittent fire indication on an engine. Do you put the bottle in or not?


Tailpipe fire on the ground is a different game. Irrelevant to this discussion.


"Flame seen on the left side" is not the same as "engine on fire" the crew would react differently even if the don't mean to.

It’s why we never use the word "panic" in briefings. i.e. "no need to panic". Once the words are out there they will make a difference.

[Milt]

What aircraft captain could be conned into departing an airfield to dump fuel when he has an engine or wing on fire. Good way to lose a wing while he dumps. Of course if the shutoffs and fire extinguishers positively put out the fire THEN use your SOPs. But be careful - I once had an engine ( imbedded) fire which spread to and weakened the wing structure before that dreaded red warning light resulted in the discharging of the fire bottles to successfully extinguish.

Otherwise get back on the ground immediately if not sooner.

Specifications for maximum landing weight are predicated on a maximum vertical sink rate of usually 10 ft per second. 10 fps will always feel like a heavy landing. If in an emergency you need to land above specifications then you just have to be progressively more careful with your sink rate at touch down the greater your landing weight is above the normal maximum, simply to preserve the continuing integrity of the landing gear.

Some mathemagician may be able to come up with the reducing sink rate numbers as your weight goes above max for landing. I think there may be a factor squared in there somewhere.

The only other consideration I can see concerns the increasing touch down IAS with weight plus what you might add on 'for mum and the kids'. This increased IAS is largely irrelevant as it will be such a small component of those things which affect landing gear capacity.

[autothrottle]

Were you piloting that Harrier ,John?


:eek:

[HarryMann]

V ~ (W2/W1)^.5

Vs proportional to root W

e.g. Double the weight, Vnew = 1.414 x Vold

[John Farley]

Thank you for the polish Rob. I tried to PM you but it said your box was full. Dunno if that is right but I would love a copy!

autothrottle. Yep.