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BA B744 engine surge!

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BA B744 engine surge!

Old 22nd Mar 2008, 03:19
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BA009 returned from airborne early this morning.

Was slightly confused seeing NLN taxying back to T4 earlier followed by the fire trucks and a tug.
Looked on the screen and BA009 showed airborne at 0.20hrs and it was back on the ground at about 01.40. The tug wasnt used and it taxied to 410. Whats the problem?

Last edited by Gatwickba; 22nd Mar 2008 at 23:14. Reason: someone changed MY title!!!
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Old 22nd Mar 2008, 08:03
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No1 engine fire just after departure.
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Old 22nd Mar 2008, 19:53
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No 1 engine surge after departure.
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Old 22nd Mar 2008, 22:20
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No 1 engine surge after departure.
Thank you for your correction, as I witnessed a long stream of flames from the port side and the pilot reported, to us, an engine fire.

He was then tongue in cheek when he told the fire serivce his "No1 engine blew-up on take-off."
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Old 22nd Mar 2008, 23:13
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Missed all the excitement. Only saw it taxi in while I was getting off my aircraft on 313. Thanks for the info.
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 00:50
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I was about 200m from the aircraft when it rotated and saw / heard / felt the surges. At the time considered it to be a fire the surges were closes together and created a long substained flame for a good 3-5 seconds.

The controller and myself both at the same time advised on the tower frequency that the the engine maybe on fire,
This was to advise the pilot of a visual state of the engine, no doubt he had alarms and bells going off in the cockpit anyway,after a swift Roger he contuned to declare a mayday and suspected engine fire. after dumping fuel he returned and downgraded his situation to a PAN and engine failure.

I must say being that close to the aircraft at the time on the A taxiway it did make me jump.lol

Cheers Big
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 01:16
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Maybe swallowed a bird or two or something indigestible.
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 06:30
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I wonder why they just didnt continue on with the flight?
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 06:46
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The controller and myself both at the same time advised on the tower frequency that the the engine maybe on fire,
This was to advise the pilot of a visual state of the engine, no doubt he had alarms and bells going off in the cockpit anyway,
pls just report what you see and not what you think might be happening.

no lights and bells for a surging engine. just shut it down. but if some one reports the engine on fire[it wasn't] the crew is pretty much forced to put a fire bottle in.

flames from the front or back is not the same as an engine fire.
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 09:09
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There's always a fire in a jet engine ;-)

Surging is spectacular, but very easily cured.

Walker Texas Ranger - you are a troll
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 11:27
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As described it was a surge. Whilst it may or may not be an engine failure it looks and sounds pretty dramatic.
Had a three bang surge on the roll one day in a RR B747F - cleared the runway, discussed and went for another go. No problem second time.
Don't think I'd have done that in a pax a/c though
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 13:50
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Sorry Basil
I don't get the distinction between pax and no pax re continuing after a surge.
Could you elaborate why it's OK to go if you have no pax?
Are you not responsible for pax AND crew ?
Or were you tongue-in-cheek? (I hope so)
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 14:41
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pls just report what you see and not what you think might be happening.

no lights and bells for a surging engine. just shut it down. but if some one reports the engine on fire[it wasn't] the crew is pretty much forced to put a fire bottle in.

flames from the front or back is not the same as an engine fire.
Engine surges are a common manifestation of many types of engine problems some of which are as temporary in nature as a tired engine. The flight manual for the particular engine model is based on experience in how to deal with it. In some cases it does permit continuation of flight.

The crew training should have covered the identification and response at the flight deck level. What the ground sees and hears is what has been reported above. It's up to the pilot to recognize the difference between a recoverable engine surge and an engine which is on fire and requires shutting it down or discharging a fire bottle. That's why they put engine gages in the cockpit and train pilots how to respond.

I'm not aware of what ground controlers are trained to say when they hear a bang look up and see fire and smoke trailing an aircraft. I'm glad at least that they don't just stare and bite their lip.
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 14:55
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I saw a 742 (might have been a 743) have a double engine surge as it powered up prior to releasing brakes. It was quite impressive. Pilot reckoned fuselage was blanking the engine intakes ( 40kt + cross wind component at the time). He was impressed how quickly the fire trucks got there, although not sure the pax were too impressed when they took off 2 hours later in same aircraft for 7 hour flight over the atlantic...

always interesting to watch, although prefer to do it from the tower than out the aircraft window
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 15:32
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Stiffwing - perhaps Basil's rationale was that freight will not sue for anxiety attacks and mental anguish.
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 17:08
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BA B744 engine surge!

That's what happens when Rainboe isn't on board!
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Old 23rd Mar 2008, 19:07
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stiffwing,
No, not 'tongue in cheek' - for a change
Idle Thrust has pretty much got it. Experienced, professional crew discussed implications including engine damage. Decided that another attempt at take off = ground run (more or less). Stacks of runway; brakes cool since first surge at about 15kn.
I would not have wished to subject anxious passengers to a test situation which may have resulted in another surge.

Noticed fire section all suited up ready to go as we taxied past for second attempt
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Old 24th Mar 2008, 01:27
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good one walker texas ranger:

I didn't think you were a troll...perhaps droll, but not a troll.

wondering if it was the same plane I was thinking about...way back in another more famous incident.
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Old 24th Mar 2008, 10:39
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wondering if it was the same plane I was thinking about
There's a one in 57 chance that it was!

For the controller who transmitted that it was a fire: IMHO the pilots are busy diagnosing the surge, and then taking the appropriate action. They are in no doubt that something is wrong! Perhaps "Speedbird do you require assistance" would have worked slightly better? The answer would almost certainly be 'standby'

When we practice these drills in the sim, there is of course no-one to make such a call and we are trained just to get on with it.

Might be worth another look at the vid of the 757 at Manchester: here
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Old 24th Mar 2008, 11:13
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Since this is Rumour & News not the Technical Log we don’t want to overdo the technicalities associated with engine surges but, as with most experiences that have a potential to frighten, a little understanding may help to calm the nerves.

When jet engines are running normally the air makes its way through the engine in an orderly way and the flames, so essential to the thrust we love, are nicely contained out of sight in the middle of the engine.

An engine is said to have ‘surged’ (not a bad term to describe things really) whenever the orderly flow is disturbed. Rather naturally if something momentarily disturbs the way the air is flowing through the front of the engine the good flames can flicker about and become visually evident at the rear end.

The two main causes of disturbance are the intake having to swallow something physical, such as a bird, or it being affected by a sudden change in the direction of the air coming in, as we are all used to when walking about on a very windy and gusty day.

A surge makes a pronounced pop or bang (depending on your disposition) so can be unsettling unless you realise it for what it is when you can use the occasion to demonstrate how super cool you are.

The photograph shows such a transient ‘pop surge’ event with the aircraft having just left the ground on a VTO. It was out of sight to me but still evident due to the ‘pop’ which tends to be somewhat louder if you choose a seat right in front of the intakes.

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