Korean Air Interview Profile

[MAUMAU]

I would greatly appreciate any and all information on the Korean Air Captain Interview Profile with regards to the B767 and B777.

I would especially be interested in hearing from any expat Pilots who are currently flying for Korean Air or have interviewed with them.

I thank you in advance for your assistance.

[changer]

(bump)

I would too!

[BUSTRASH]

Forget It Ive been trying to get actual info on the Qatari interview but nobody seems too want to give any actual info.

[Human Cargo]

Korean Air B-777 Dec 3, 2007 training class.

As of April, 2008 the final pass/fail results for our class is:
There is only one pilot that passed his CASA check ride. Only one pilot remains employed out of six (6) that started in the Dec 3, 2007 B-777 class at Korean Air! Two members of our class had thousands of previous hours flying the B-777 (they were NOT newly rated) and the rest of us were highly qualified, but newly rated B-777 Captains. Every one of us passed ALL of our other Korean Air check rides and oral examinations and recommendation ride. We passed everything except for the final CASA check ride. Neither of the previously rated B-777 pilots passed their check ride. The only one that passed was newly rated and had been a B-737 Captain. (More background information regarding my qualifications and flying experience is outlined below.) The statistics presented in this report should be very revealing, especially if you consider the fact that most of the class previous to ours didn’t succeed in making it through their check rides either. I understand that the same CASA inspector conducted their check rides as well. And the class before that - most of their pilots failed. For the last three classes in a row, CASA and/or Korean Air failed all of the pilots except for one or two. Korean Air refused to give me any details on the exact failure rate and told my class that those pilots had failed because they lied on their resume’s. That is not consistent with the story that I heard from a very reliable source or the way myself and others in my class have been treated. Statistically, anyone should be able to see that something is very wrong with this process! It is devastating to the pilots that have invested so much of their time, money and professional reputation to pursue a job at Korean Air. My intent in this report is to inform new applicants of the situation at Korean Air before you throw away your time and money. I also must set the record straight to protect my professional reputation. I am telling you this so you can hear it from me personally instead of the “spin” that will surely be put on the real truth by CASA and Korean Air management. I have no doubt that they will simply say ‘[we] were not qualified’ and/or did not live up to Korean Air Standards or didn’t follow the POM/FOM. It is not true! Do not believe it.
“No Notes” and Negative Training: As of March 25, 2008 I have flown 8 trips (16 sectors/legs) with 5 instructors. I have had so many instructors because I requested an instructor change after the first four legs and apparently they could not regain continuity in scheduling with any other instructor. It was necessary for me to request a replacement of the first instructor and here is why: He spoke very poor English at best. I just couldn’t understand him. It could have been his frustration in his inability to speak English that caused him to communicate with me by actually yelling at me, insulting me and belittling me. He chastised and berated me for not knowing all HIS flight techniques that are being taught as procedures. I only understood a small percentage of what he said although his favorite line was “Do you understand!!?” in a booming voice. No, I didn’t understand. However, I did understand him when he said he couldn’t believe that I had been a Captain for a major airline. Others in my class complained repeatedly of similar disrespectful comments and treatment. My final decision to change instructors was made when he told me I could no longer refer to any of my written notes. He threatened to have me fired if I referenced them again. He threatened me with termination for doing what I have always done for 34 years! Since I had just started my Operational Experience (OE) and since so many others had been terminated, I had to consider his comment to be a viable threat. He was a Korean Air Line Check Pilot (LCP). His unreasonable requirement included my not being able to use the route study notes that I had written down from the required viewing of the audio visual route and airport videos (AV Packs). This was a double standard because he constantly referred to his own notes for frequencies, PA’s etc., etc.. EVERYONE I have ever talked to and flown with at Korean Air Lines has told me they used their notes to learn from, fly with, and to survive the arduous memory requirements of Korean Air training. I have used personal flight notes for 34 years starting in gliders with a knee board to write notes while flying. The absurdity of his ‘no notes’ concept is - if they wanted us to memorize everything, then why do we even have electronic checklists, POM, FOM and PA guides or even the ‘Airport Analysis Charts’ in the cockpit? Those first four legs (sectors) of my OE were totally wasted in negative training. At its worst, it was pure harassment. At its best, every ride was treated as a check ride. It was constant ridicule with very little instruction. It certainly was NOT western style training. I knew I would not survive the OE with this instructor so my only choice was to request an instructor change. It was a difficult decision to make because I had been told of the potential dire consequences of requesting an instructor change (due to the ‘losing face’ issue). That difficult choice was only made after a lot of consultation. I consulted with Foreign Captain “Advisor to Line Operations”, Al Makdisi. He told me not to use my notes. I also consulted with Tom Divine, “Advisor Flight Standards and Training” and many other line pilots.

Each new instructor taught me his own techniques and called them Korean Air procedures. I complied and faithfully followed those procedures and documented all the changes in a script that I sent via email with multiple updates to many other pilots who were starting training class at Korean Air Lines in order to assist them in getting a head start before their OE. After studying for months, I knew the content of the FOM/POM but was not aware of its interpretation or its application until I was almost finished with my OE since each new instructor ‘inspired’ constant changes to the techniques and “the script”.
The above information is taken in part from a letter written by an "experienced foriegn Captain" who was terminated after failure of is CASA line check.
It reproduced here for your consideration should you decide to come to work here, for what ever reason.
Things here are not perfect and require an individual who is mentally strong and can put up with the peculiar not necessarily coherent way of training.
I strongly suggest that you take a leave of absents from your current employer.
Good Luck.

[azlee_19]

Have u passed everything now? Now they start hiring FOs on all fleet, i just applied for B777FO, was told the selection on 26th May 08. If this happens to Capts, it'll be worse on FOs! Those guys we fired or actually retrained and passed?

[Samuel Adams]

They were fired, no details given. Just bring your books, uniform etc and get out of here.
Nice, huh?

[rwethereyet]

Harrowing AND expensive experience:uhoh:. Correct me if I'm wrong but KAL NEEDS pilots BUT want THEM to PAY for the type rating,go through all the hoops(provided these guys mentioned are decent drivers) and then FAIL them!? Hmm....hope these guys thoroughly did their homework before investing any kind of money.
Why would anyone want to pay big $$$ to go work for a company that needs THEIR services?! Sad.

Good luck to those who are in the same situation....:bored:

Cheers,

RWTY

[ORD767]

Mediocre pay and NO benefits, too. I'd rather drive a truck for UPS.

[TWN PPL]

Condolence for who had to subject oneself for the abusive training in KAL. But it isn't anything new. Someone said it before here on PPRuNe... it's like winning the lottery in KAL. Some have great experience in OE and some have it really bad.

Why pay for your own Capt. B777 or A330 type to work? (Could it be because some guys don't have time on type? Why isn't that fare?) Yes and why is anybody "pilot whore" want to fly for these K bastards? You should join Delta, UA or AA. They don't make you pay for ur B777 rating. But, then again... they start you out as FO on B737; bottom of the seniority list.

Agree w/ ORD767. Rather then flying for KAL; driving a truck for UPS is much more superior. I'm sure UPS will pay for your Commercial Driver's License; Professional Truck Driver Institute for the double and triple trailers.

[jet grande]

Does anyone know if this culling ( more like a massacre ) of expatriates in KAL also happens in Asiana ? :ouch:

[FO Cokebottle]

Well Guys,

Sadley, its a case of not doing your homework, reading the books (really reading them), knowing your enemy and pay'in your dues.

Otherwise, they'd be the best airline to work for...........

.......go figure!!!

[piratepete]

Cokebottle.....that is just rubbish.This type of crap training is an embarrassment to our proffession.I have 34 years of flying and would consider working for them, but refuse to be subjected to that kind of torture.I know that I would likely just walk off the job.Ive been an instructor for over 9000 hours of heavy jets and there is just no place for this kind of thing anymore.Stuff them.Im staying in Thailand.

[changer]

Sadly, I'd have to agree that there is something more to Human Cargo's post than simply not doing your homework.

Being told not to refer to your notes is a telltale sign, IMO. After many years of being a check pilot on a heavy I've learned that the students who took notes during their OE were nearly always the better pilots.

It sounds more like an earnest attempt by a capable pilot to make the grade. Unfortunately, not only is he out the cost of the type rating, but now also has a huge blemish on his resume which he'll have to explain at every job interview from now on.

Still, I'd love to hear if anyone else has a different perspective

[Elmer_mt]

typical OLD school training, huh, I believe he's one of the guys who havent changed a bit from the time he left Military flight training school, and still believes in the same old flight techniques he's learned from the time airplanes were flown in war....I believe they're still at war with the North....so I'd just say he hasn't been around....:zzz: Good Day Mate!!! and good luck on your OE's in KAL or Asiana.

[FO Cokebottle]

piratepete,

To quote an old line training instructor I once had..."All I'm say'in...."

KAL has a well deserved reputation and history and any "career" professional contract pilot would know. Their modus operandi, both in training and on the line is well known.

Sun Sue (not sure of the spelling) in the art of war stated, if you know your enemy better than thy self, you will never suffer a defeat.

So my post stands....do your homework, read theirbooks on theirprocedures, study their(Korean) history, attitudes and culture.

Jezzzz...if I was going to spend the money for them to type me - I'd really make sure I fitted in and openly agree with everything they say (you can have your own mind in private).

Lastly, "pay'in your dues"...if your over there as a means to get that command seat before your really ready for it - you belong in a casino.

The instructors may be ex-Air Force neanderthals but they can spot sweaty palms a mile off.

TWN PPL has alluded to the bottom line - Its their train set......

[54fighting]

FO Cokebottle , You are right on the money. Read their books, know their procedures, try to get along.
In reference to the KAL candidate [ex-Delta] who failed. Probably
wasn't a good idea to request an instructor change, as a mandatory
instructor change happens half-way through OE training anyway. Similarly,if I was to request an instructor change at Delta, I would be on
a "watch-list" as well.

Just because he had a good flying record at Delta, is irrelevent.
Coming in with a good attitude, doing your homework, and forgetting
where you came from [it's not Delta] is the key to success.

[cantdance]

54fighting and FO Cockbottle you are incorrect. There was no instructor change scheduled for my training. I was scheduled for the same instructor all the way through OE. I have the printouts to prove it. As far as my prior employment at Delta is concerned, an instructor change would probably not be necessary in the first place as I have never run into an abusive instructor that taught his own techniques. If it was required, as with a few friends, it was done with no questions asked and no repercussions.

Your posts were way off base and not in touch with reality. I am the author of the excerpt (the original report is 8 pages long) of the KAL training report that was posted on this web site by someone else and it is true in every sense. My class was subjected to the most horrendous nontraining environment anyone has ever experienced. I know how to "get along" and present a good image. I wasn't born yesterday. It had nothing to do with that. I also know the books inside and out.

In the future I suggest you stick to topics you know something about instead of misleading readers for some political reasons. Do you work for KAL management? What was the purpose of your post?

[azlee_19]

Asian culture is all about remembering whats in the bookand not arguing with your boss. Once your tranings done, u can relax (besides pointing out their mistakes). Luckily its not practised anymore here in south. rather than testing, we conduct training and discussion.

cantdance, is it true, the sims are conducted by foreigners while Line training by Koreans? How 'bad' is their english? Also, do they fly all the time because they can't do radio call because of their bad english?

[54fighting]

Can'tdance,

Happened to catch your ranting & raving in the crewroom at the ICN Hyatt Hotel. Kind of pathetic to watch.
I'm curious as to why you are screaming for your freebie tickets on KAL, to fly your family to Thailand. And the next breath, you are screaming that KAL is one of the most dangerous airlines in the world [this
from your own 8 page text]. You sure you want to fly KAL???
Good luck straightening out that logic.
Now that you have time. Good luck with the dance lessons.

[fullforward]

It is exactly what was written about KAL here: it's just a big lottery.
It's not about your abilities, experience level, airmanship etc. It depends only on the mood of the clown of the day, if their kimmchy was good or not.

Too sad an otherwise good airline still empowers some really sick bastards to judge who's good or not for them. I know about at least 10 excellent professionals, with all possible credentials on experience, instructors, checkairmen etc that bozos failed for nothing, while guys below average passed and are happy (?) there.

My recomendation is: do not risk your present job for an outfit like this, or, at the best, take a leave of abscence if you really want to try.
They are not serious.

[fourgolds]

Gents , can any of you give us some honest examples of the " type" of questions you are asked on line training ( broken English et al) . Also when you say guys are being failed on their checkrides . Is this the local regulating body (CAA equivalent) inspector or KAL examiner thats failing the guys ? Its difficult to form a picture of the process.

Surely you cant be expected to memorise frequencies en route etc etc.?

Thanks

[billabongbill]

Indeed as someone mentioned, success in KAL is like winning a lottery. When I first came during the end of the dark days in late 1999 and early 2000, OE was very " loud " with hardly any training. Every flight was a check flight with the LCP jumping at every trivial thing not to his liking. I almost gave up until I was assigned to a wonderful new foreign LCP. This chap showed me the ropes; ever patient he went through a whole 3 days before our OE training together at the OC building in Kimpo using the fixed base engineering ( I to was a non rated DEC ). I was so lucky to have a series of OE training with this gentleman that I had enough confidence to continue with the torturous OE training. Obviously he was quite respected by the then head of KAL B777 training ( if I remember right, he was the first KAL B777 expat recruited ) and he did put in a good word for me.

If one manage to get a good report from a " senior " LCP, then the juniors will continue the train of good report and it will be fairly comfortable training on. If one start on a wrong foot with a nasty, then it's a goner! A lottery really!!

I am now out of there for some years now. Looking back I wouldn't want to do it again. The stress, uncertainty and arbitary changes in contract conditions were too much to bear. I aged, I guess, at almost 3 times the rate as my contemporaries in SQ, EK etc. For guys with a fairly outfit, do think hard, very hard before embarking on this kimchi adventure!

[Capt. John Doe]

How true are the posts on this thread. Have a few buddies - Koreans and foreigners - both at KAL and Asiana. I just have to chuckle and shake my head. I feel for the guys who failed. And I hear it's pretty much the same across the channel in the land of the rising sun. The pass/fail rate at ANA last year and this year was only marginally better than
KAL's.

Definitely do your homework on the company and the societal culture before you consider anything in the Far East.

[fullforward]

May I humbly disagre with you: the passe/fail rate ratio means nothing as long as the evaluation system itself is absolutely inconsistent.
It's more a lottery than anything else. It's not related to proficiency, experience or airmanship.

You are clearly misinformed or are one of the "lottery" winners or even KAL staff, sorry...

It's interesting that every time I'm about to decide to take a look at that outfit I discover that the sad circus is still going on full tilt.:mad:

[FO Cokebottle]

Dear Cantdance,

I thought of a long winded response to your last post, especially the management jibe. However, after 54fighting highlighted your overt actions and attitudes in the "house of your keeper". I have decided to let you know what I am about...

I am just a "white nigger" earning my corn bread and mighty thankful to my master.

Suggested reading: Samual Huntington's Clash of Civilisations

[galleypower]

PM me if you want to read the whole story posted by 'Human Cargo'.

[FO Cokebottle]

Does it read like a Greek Tradgedy???

[cantdance]

54fighting: Last year (2007) at Korean Air 11 out of 14 B-777 pilots were sent home (in your words: "failed training"). In 2008; so far 5 out of 6 pilots have 'failed'. Think about it. Statistically that just isn't possible unless something is seriously wrong. You may have read my report but you obviously didn't understand it. Or as a management 'wanabee' (maybe you are management) you are doing all you can to discredit the truth. All I was trying to do is give a heads up to pilots that are planning to spend $20,000 or more of their hard earned money on the B-777 type rating only to find out that the Korean Air offer is a sham. I didn't get my money back. Additionally I spent four of the most miserable months of my life giving them my best effort and doing exactly what they wanted. In the end they lied. They are still lying and calling it "saving face".

54fighting handle is obviously a misnomer. Fighting who? I think the rest of the readers get it. I can't help you.

[Sireh]

Obviously you did not do your homework wrt working for KAL...it's a lottery with heavy odds stacked against you. Maybe you were lured into this by expat fellows in KAL who want to swell up expat ranks so that they can be " management " something in the KAL flight ops circus.

[piratepete]

COKEBOTTLE.
How is Tai-pay??.The most valid point in all this, is that no amount of homework and good attitude will be enough to counter a Training Captain with a bad attitude to students.The most basic of attributes for a trainer is that he MUST NOT present methods and techniques that are purely his own as if they are Company SOP.This is unproffessional and can only be adapted to by taking notes so you can remember each and every trainers personal methods.You stated Asiana and KAL have good reputations, but I seem to remember the whole world was aghast with the very high number of crashes in Korea in the not too distant past, and their poor training methods, as shown on PPRUNE would be a big factor in all this.Fcuk them, im NOT going there.

[FO Cokebottle]

Piratepete,

Tai-pay is fine - the amount of money is not the only T & C to be considered in a LIFESTYLE

My statement was:

KAL has a well deserved reputation and history and any "career" professional contract pilot would know. Their modus operandi, both in training and on the line is well known.


....and not the:

You stated Asiana and KAL have good reputations

from your last post.

Gotta run..tha masta is a call'in

[B737NG]

Why are you not going there and expirience first hand how embarressing the training is. You sit up and do your "homework" and when you show up for the flight you will learn that all is worth nothing..... you will not pass. You are not up to standart. Consequently you bring your books and you will be out faster then you think, China is similar, bad Pilot is the feedback to the Agency.

During the period of 1998/99 there was just a note under your door in the Hotel. Ticket to fly home in an envelope. Leave the Company property with the Hotel. Believe it, what is stated above is only the tip of the Iceberg. What the fellows do to you, you understand is not imaginable in any nightmare. If you are at a Bar and tell the people what you encountered there they look at you and think you have a too wild imagination but is only a fraction. If you are on a suicidal mission then go for it: Destroy your confidence and career path. Who want´s to state in his CV why he left KAL after 3 or 4 months. When I get a CV on the table and read the short period of time there then I know it was as training issue.

I can contact some Buddy´s there for you but it is your call, not mine.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[tom744]

B737NG,

as far as I remember you left KAL voluntary and in bad terms before your OE even started.
And did you pay back CAL your training bond?
How does that look in your CV?
You know,because of you nobody gets off anmore between recieving the passport back and OE,you did KAL management a real favour with showing off your attitude.
better spare the mankind with your drivel.

[j-p744]

TOM744, are you Tom Divine, “Advisor Flight Standards and Training” for KAL?

[fullforward]

Too sad this scandal arose only now, through the courage and dignity of few.
How many careers and professional reputations, not counting families suffering could be saved if people could know in advance what a trap they were lured into.
It's beyond imagination why the main airline of a country with so many fantastic achievements endorses such dirty, untrustworthy tricks.
What a bunch of liars and psychopats!:\



And shame on you TOM in defending such a cage of reptiles.

[portquartercv67]

Are the same antics going on in the 744 pipeline?

[tom744]

@j-p744

no, I'm not Tom Divine.

@fullforward

I'm NOT defending these practices;
I'm in contact with the person concerned and yes, it's a shame!
But my post was entirely directed to someone who pretends to know about it but actally left after ground training and therefore has only second hand information.

@portquartercv67

as I am aware there are almost no failures on the 744 but it happens occasionally.
It's totally differnt from western training culture; don't expect any instruction;they expect you to know everything.
If you know about asian culture and know your standart callouts you almost made it.
But it's not a guarantee; some guys had really bad luck and their training was a big hassle but they passed at the end.
That's 744, 777 is different in the moment.

And it's true,
from the last 777 course 6 out of 7 failed; the failure rate in previous 777 courses was only a little better.

[guiones]

What about on the A330 fleet?

[ShockWave]

Are we talking about all 777 courses or just the full transition courses? How many, if any of the failed guys were previously endorsed with time on the aircraft?

[chillchillchill]

I’ve been at KAL a bunch of years. One of the best contract jobs around.
But I can relate to what cantdance writes. I see no exaggeration, I’ve seen it all.

The LCP acting as F/O for him for his checkride is one of the nicest fellows around, a true gentleman. But faced with the pressure of an already decided outcome by the KMOT, he did what generations before him has done – knuckled down under superior pressure. He should have performed as CRM dictated, and challenged the checker on unfair issues, been a man for once, but would I have been different if I had been raised in that culture? Would you have?

Cantdance, you are right to feel anger, I do too, you grew up in a culture that was so different, as did I, and even though you were aware of the vast cultural differences, some things are absolute, especially in aviation, transcending the barriers, so that you were compelled to speak out. I commend you, you were right, and I’m glad you let us all know.

We've seen many improvements over the last decade, but there are many more required.

[tom744]

@guiones

I've seen onlt one or two failures from foreigners so far on the 330 but don't nail me for this,I might have missed something.
From I guy I know he got unfairly busted on his checkride; and on his 2nd chance he admitted that he busted.Well,can understand that you perform different if you know that's your last chance and 4 eyes are watching you...

@shockwave

Concerning rated guys, I have seen courses with everbody passing on the 777( but all got their training "extended") but there were also courses with 5 failures out of 7.
Recommend to keep the door open to your previous job if you want to give it a try; keep in mind that the job with KAL is only yours when you passed the check ride.
Depends whom you get as an instructor; cantdance for instance got the shortest straw but nobody knows before.
Kind of lottery.

[fullforward]

Somebody told me about a former 777 KAL TRE, one of that terrible, sadistic liar types. He's now flying as a contract pilot for a foreign company, along with others ex KAL foreign pilots.
They make jokes about this man present behavior, as sweet as a small pet...it's another person!:}

[simyoke]

No notes and negative training.

I used to work with Korean air as F/O and everything HUMAN CARGO says reminds me of all the absurdities from typical Korean captains that I had to put up with; yelling, belittling, threatening and whatnot. It looks like that he had to go through a very typical Korean Air OE.

[changer]

Cantdance, you are right to feel anger, I do too, you grew up in a culture that was so different, as did I, and even though you were aware of the vast cultural differences, some things are absolute, especially in aviation, transcending the barriers, so that you were compelled to speak out. I commend you, you were right, and I’m glad you let us all know.

well said.

[angryblackman]

I showed up at the interview wearing a dark plaid suit with a small North Korean red lapel badge with the image of the dear leader Kim Jong-il. (Itś every NORTH Korean citizens duty to wear the badge over the left breast). The South Koreans jumped out of their seats screaming at me. I shouted back, "Commrades...LONG LIVE DEAR LEADER-KIM JONG-IL" . Then left. Never heard from them again.:ok:

[oz in dxb]

I wonder why??????

[captainng]

i was considering korean and was wondering what the pass stats were for the 737. i hope its not the same as the 777! if anyone got the last couple of courses for all fleets itt would be helpful
thanks in advance:ok:

[Pappy Bovinton]

Gents, & ladies (But there are NO ladies at KAL).

I would rather drive a truck than risk my professional credentials and record on a LOTTERY.

'I don't tolerate fools regardless of rank.'
Loyalty stops short of incompetence.

Have a nice day ya all- enjoy the Kimchee!
:8

[Samuel Adams]

There are ladies flying for KAL, actually. All of them are F/O's, but some are getting quite close to being upgraded.

[fullforward]

Well said, man!
The right place to watch clowns in action is the circus!...

[4PW's]

Remarkable how some posters are attempting to shoot down those that wish to alert others of not just pitfalls, but gaping holes.

If a potential candidate for KAL wants to know how it all works up there before signing on (yes, we're talking about me here), he contacts the prospective crewing agency and asks to be put in contact with some of the fellas on the agency's books that're based in the port that'd be on the contract: Europe, the US, Australia etc.

Every single one of the blokes I contacted and spoke with at length told stories of equal measure to the one being thrown about by Catdance. One of the blokes spoke of how, during the KAL training, he was made to feel he'd never flown a plane before in his life. This after 15 years training at one of the world's oldest airlines. None of them had an axe to grind. They all work for KAL.

Who else does one poll for an insight into what goes on at KAL? We all ask questions before making a decision on something. The agency. Yes, you ask the agency, and there are some honest people in honest outfits out there, two of whom have three letters to their company's name. One of these companies may start with the letter C whilst another may start with the letter G.

Good guys, no doubt about it. But they're in the business of sending out pilots to an airline, not spoon feeding you into making a decision. Information is all you'll get, and it wasn't recommended to leave a good job for KAL. That may not be what everyone wants to hear, but it's what is passed on by 'honest' agents. You can rule Ri-----th out completely on this one!

Honest enough comment from some straight shooters; so why leave the good job you've got to go suck a lemon in Korea? Is commuting home 12 days a month THAT important?

Be warned.

[fullforward]

Sumarizing your post-

"DO NOT CONSIDER LEAVING A REASONABLE JOB TO TAKE CHANCES AT KAL"

[4PW's]

Too bloody right, mate.

[Captnhappy]

Another one bit the dust today.
A great guy got along with everyone even the instructors.
Had no issues(That we were aware of) however he was sent home. This is becoming a strange but all too real seniero that all you Korean Wanna B's need to be aware of. Korean air is a very disfunctional Airline. And nothing here has any reference on reality or safety! And you put your life career family life and health all at risk should you decide that this ia the place for you.
Your Success is literally a lottery.
So "Go ahead make my day"
Det. Harry Gant.

[DOJETDRIVER]

Just curious, but does anybody have the pay and T&C's for the A330 FO postion.

Thanks.

[bungacengkeh]

Quote :
Korean air is a very disfunctional Airline. And nothing here has any reference on reality or safety! And you put your life career family life and health all at risk should you decide that this ia the place for you.
Your Success is literally a lottery.

Not forgetting putting your life and lives of family members at risk when you travel on the freebee tickets! Also when you deadhead home or for vacation. I have heard confirmed horror stories of very near CFIT at KTM, engine pod scrape at NRT, weird and dangerous reverse thrust manipulations on landing almost leading to " runaway " runway excursion, botched go-arounds, landing on taxiways, etc; just too many for any level of comfort!

[malyr]

Hi all,

lets say that you join them but you are european, what about USA bases or Australia bases. Can you work in USA without green card or work in Australia for few years anway. What kind of contract or premission you need? Can anybody explain this.

thanks in advance
and good flights

[billabongbill]

This indeed happened a few times. Once out of SYD whilst deadheading, as the plane turned into runway 16R I spied an aircraft on tow crawling ever slowly about to cross ( west to east ) the edge of the runway. As the plane was aligned with the runway, I lost sight of it. I thought it was just a line up and wait instruction. However the crew did an immediate rolling takeoff ( they indeed had tower clearance to takeoff ); I told myself that the aircraft on tow must have held position very close to the runway. There was a more abrupt rotation than usual and I knew that something was wrong and I did not see any towing aircraft throughout the takeoff.

Later, when things settled on cruise and the F/O came back for his rest, I confronted him about the incident. He related that they were filing an airmiss report as the Tower had cleared them for takeoff and the towing aircraft was at fault. Fine....i then ask him if he had seen the towing aircraft close to the runway edge prior to takeoff, he said he did but didn't think it would encroach the active runway. I asked if he and the skipper had any doubts and reconfirmed with Tower to which he replied it didn't cross their minds that the towing aircraft would encroach as they already had takeoff clearance!!! Alas, doing things blindly and by rote is the Korean way!!

[DOJETDRIVER]

I emailed one of the contract agencies directly concerning the T&C's of the KAL A330 FO postition. I also included a summary of my flight times. Granted, they are probably pretty low for the position. Of 4700 hours in airline transport operations, 2700 is in the FRJ Dornier 328Jet aircraft. The other 2000 in in the EMB-145.

I got a response back saying that the 2700 does not count as it's not a commercial aircraft. I replied that it was in commercial operations engaged in flying on behalf of Delta Airlines as Delta Connection, as well as United Airlines as United Express. The reply I got back from that was that the Dornier time does not count as it is a turbo prop aircraft and not a turbo jet aircraft. I then replied informing then that it was INDEED a turbo jet aircraft, as well as included photos of the aircraft engaged in COMMERCIAL JET operations.

This whole exchange left me wondering EXACTLY how much the contract recruiters know about aircraft as well as the operations in which they are employed.

[maui]

Dojetdriver

There are the good the bad and the downright ugly among the contract companies.

Personally, wouldn't touch :mad:ing IAC or Rishworths.

CCL and GAP should give you a fair shake.

Maui

[Capt.Bee]

I repeat my previous statement again !!!
Dojetdriver, take my advice seriously, PLEASE! Never ever, even consider going to Korea as a F/O. You will be done for the aviation business pretty soon after. Subservience is not for everyone, but overthere you are expected and required to do so. The american culture has nothing, I mean NOTHING to do with the korean one. Even the local F/Os love flying with the foreign captains. :ugh:

[DOJETDRIVER]

Thanks guys. It was more out of curiosity as to what the T&C's were. But yeah, after the exchange as well as what you guys have posted, I won't even give it a second thought.

I'm sure that it's been brought up before. But with some of the supposedly dodgy safety practices and the "pilot shortage" that they are facing, how can they attract qualified crews with the culture issues they have?

[Barney Rock]

For what it is worth, I was with Korean for 6 years. For guys who managed to avoid tax, the money was fairly worthwhile when the greenback was strong. However, there were many cons; back in the early 2000s KAL was under close scrutiny by FAA, CASA, NZ CAA and many other regulatory bodies. As such crews were subjected many surprise flight checks, ramp checks, CASA and FAA audit checks, DOD audit checks etc which made life stressful especially when you get less than sterling performance from your Korean F/O's and augment captains. Things improved after the mid 2000s but with their recent close calls, I believe all the regulatory bodies are going to tighten the screws again.

Then as someone had mentioned, the nagging worries when you deadhead or when your families travel on KAL services. Add in the constant rechecks for trivial anomalies in your medical lab tests and their insistence that captains in the 50s remain spritely like spring chickens. life can be tumultuous roller coaster of swinging emotions. I read somewhere that one guy reckon he aged 3 times the rate of contemporaries in other outfits; it was also true in my case.

In a nutshell, I WILL NOT DO IT AGAIN. Having said that, the KAL deal was the best commuting contract. I just wish that all the recruitment agencies work out such commuting contracts with VN, Jet, AI, EY, EVA, CAL, JAL etc.

[jandakotcruiser]

Funny
Somebody told me about a former 777 KAL TRE, one of that terrible, sadistic liar types. He's now flying as a contract pilot for a foreign company, along with others ex KAL foreign pilots.
They make jokes about this man present behavior, as sweet as a small pet...it's another person!:}

Aha, that must be the silver hair fox, Sierra Papa November. He had his days and for a time was the Director of Training at KAL flight Ops...what a joke!
His loud boast was that he failed a few ex Malaysian 777 skippers during their pre employment checks; his lament, the foreign deputy VP flight standards reversed the results and ordered passes for those boys! He must have been mighty peeved! Those days of high drama in KAL sim and OE training! One must have a very high degree of self hate to seek employment in KAL!

[fullforward]

The source confirmed this is the a..hole...
But now is using a black stuff to disguise the silver hair.

[Human Cargo]

Been out earning my keep this week so i havent been paying attention.
Whats the score this week?
How many more poor SOB have they sent home this week.? And more importantly, How many fools continue to Run towards the light at the end of the tunnel, after it has blown its horn!!!!!:ugh:
cheers!

[B737NG]

Putting the Saddle on the wrong Horse. Information is liable, you can rest assured about that.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[Captnhappy]

Well Here's some more Liable for you then!!!!!

Dear Captain's
Let see how many More clowns jump to this exercise again.......

This exercise seems to be coming a Turkey shoot for the Koreans now and they take pleasure in it........ :D
They will accept you because they know you can fly, you go out buy your
"T ripple 7" type rating, quit your really good job and come to training only to have some crazy Kimchi smelling clown Call you "a bad Pilot" cancel your contract and send you home. That is in reality what is going on.
AND, if you make it thru the training it has nothing to do with your ability but strickly your luck of the draw on getting your LIP/LCP.
Remember The Koreans only care about one thing "POM, FOM" The have taken 3 years from the time that started the academy to study and memorize this stupidity, and the know you wont be able to learn this habble Babble in three months, and that's where the will nail you!

So when you have spare day off between your interview days here, come down to the crew lounge for happy hour (between 6.00pm and 7.30pm) and you can confirm for your self that not everything said here is Liableous

So if youre interested , Read the info below :


Korean Air has announced the dates of the next screenings:



Session 1: 16th - 20th June 2008



Session 2: 23rd - 27th June 2008



If you are available to attend one of these Screenings please advise me of your preferred session and provide me with the documents below by 11 May 2008.



1. The attached application form



2. The completed questionnaire (attached)



3. Scanned copy of your CV with photo (template attached for reference)



4. Scanned copy of your passport



5. Scanned copy of your licence and rating



6. If you require a Visa to enter Seoul please ensure you advise us at the time of application.



If you have already made an application for this position at Korean Air, please advise which screening you would prefer to attend in the event you are accepted for screening by Korean Air.



Great news for Brazilian pilots - Korean Air opening flights to Sao Paulo from 5th June 2008!!!



Please note:

1. There is no guarantee you will be accepted for a screening due to the high number of applicants.

2. “Cruise Captains” or “Relief Captains” will not be considered for Captain positions however cruise/relief captains are welcome to apply for other FO positions.



If you advise us that you are available to Screen, Korean Air ask that you clear your schedule in advance, allowing travel time before and after the dates provided. If you are accepted for a screening it is highly recommended that you do all you can to ensure you are able to attend.



Note that if you satisfy the relevant qualifications and your application is submitted, it will take approximately 2 weeks for Korean Air to advise whether you have been accepted for the Screening.

Cheers;
Jim.
P.s see you'll at the Crew Lounge.............. Will keep the light on for you!

[kuntakinte]

Side business?

Interesting, former Lebanese PP adviser set up GAP. The current Lebanese adviser is going to......................read the tea leaves!

[On Final]

After reading some of the posts on the Korean Air training troubles I turned down the interview. I am not going to even consider places to work that treat pilots in such a poor way.

I had some other information as well as reading some of the posts here:=.

Korean Air forget it.....!!!!

[DoctorEcam]

Hi everyone

I just sent the documents for joining a selection process for driving the 330 with KAL.I am a 320 F/O
I cannot understand why everyone here tells only about negative experiences as well as those about Qatar and all the major....including CX
Is life so bad down there?O
They give you the choice of the base...looks great....
Maybe someone wants to keep good pilots away....

[Capt.Bee]

Ok doctor,let's assume you are good pilot, and I'm not or the others. Apart of that statement, I worked in Korea for 5+ bloody years........as a Captain. So, trust me I know what I'm talking about. Once again read my previous coment, you are only F/O. My 2000 interview saw 24 Captains with only 5 survived. That was massacre. You have no idea what you are about to embark on. The ride is gonna be bumpy, but that's your life, so .....enjoy it ! :ugh:

[DoctorEcam]

Thks for suggestion CPTBee

i was just thinking about joining KAL because of the bases.Having the chance to choose your base and going to live in the U.S.A should be great to me,you could work far away from mad KAL Captains.I suppose that places like sfo,lax and jfk are full of expat CPT and crews...life should be easy isn't it?Where do you perform your line training and type rating?

Thanks in advance for your opinion

Doc

[typhoonpilot]

i was just thinking about joining KAL because of the bases.Having the chance to choose your base and going to live in the U.S.A should be great to me,you could work far away from mad KAL Captains.I suppose that places like sfo,lax and jfk are full of expat CPT and crews...life should be easy isn't it?Where do you perform your line training and type rating?



1) Are you a U.S. citizen or Green Card holder. If not, how can you "live" in the USA?

2) The A330 does not serve any of those bases. All of your flying starts and ends in Seoul. You would fly with some expat Captains, but you would also fly with Korean Captains.

Trust Captain Bee, he is only trying to give a friendly warning. I too, have often told people never to go to Asia as a First Officer if you will be flying with the locals. Places like Cathay and Dragonair are fine because they have a western culture, but most of the others would be quite difficult at times.



Typhoonpilot

[CTM1394]

Dr Ecam,
Asia is a wonderful place to work....Asian are nice people and captains are pleasant if you know how to show respect to them ( if you are not a big mouth , and can stay at your place). Its the same everywhere in the world...If you follow the rules you will have no pb. Just keep quite and do your job properly . In Europe its exactely the same . I personnaly saw some european captains treating badly some FOs with no good reasons...So its not an asian particularity. Its even better in Asia because if you are respectful, they will respect you...which is not always true in western countries. Life is much better in Asia: cheaper, more beautiful ladies, less delinquence. Btw, i have no experience of American companies , looks like an heaven there!...

[Capt.Bee]

CTM ,Asia is a huge continent if you don't mind, first. Hong Kong, Singapore is one, China, Korea, Japan another, and than 30-40 more countries. Second ,how many years do you personally have in Korea? Third, are you are asian ? No disrespect in any way !!!

[typhoonpilot]

CTM:

Asia, in the context of this thread, refers specifically to Korea and more generally to Japan and China. Asia, as referred to in Dubai often means India and Pakistan, i.e. South Asian. There is a tremendous difference.

TP

[Captnhappy]

Mr. CTM1394
The dictionary defines "respect" as....: esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability:
And... :deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment:

In In Korean and Japan, Asian people hide behind this "Confucian theorem" as a means to hide there true inadequacies, and racial biases.
They use this as a means to insulate themselves from true expression, and their lack of proper interpersonal skills, insecurity and lack of the command of the English language. Most Asian people are very nice and accepting, but behind the door have no qualms to lie change records or distort the truth in order to make make themselves look good when faced with the prospect of losing face because they were ignorant of facts or did not possess the necessary knowledge or skill to be to be in the position they hold.
Generally in Asia especially in Korea their pride robs them of the reality of the confidence of where they are or who they are, and when they see a westerner, their insecurity is so apparent that, the only protection they have is to "withdraw" behind the facade of the 'respect' that their social Confucian order.
Asia is a great place to visit, and to be a tourist, but to go there for an extended period of time or to work is a different thing. The irony is that in
order for them to prosper the need "US" westerners but the older heads continue to perpetrate these old ways with out any lack of consideration for cultural diversity.

"Asian are nice people and captains are pleasant if you know how to show respect to them ( if you are not a big mouth , and can stay at your place)"[/I]. Your quotation is very true if your are an Asian.
Maybe you should take a few lessons for your Malaysian and Thai brothers and sisters that you work alongside, see how humble and friendly they are and how much more friendly with westerners.
There is an old saying that "if you want friends then be a friend" with Great position comes great humility" or in another way "THE HIGHER UP YOU GO THE HARDER YOU FALL'!
Just my two cents!!
ghb

[Willit Run]

Are the same things happening on the 747-400 program? Or is this basically a 777 issue? I've talked to several -400 guys and they seem to like it.

Anyone know the truth?

[Alexander the Great]

It's fine on the 744

[tom744]

since 1,5 years I'm aware of only 2 failures on the B744, one of them was failed by an expad checker.
Generally it's easy going if you are familiar with asian culture and,of course, they want you to do everything by the book.
Once checked out things change completely; they leave you in piece and it's really pleasant.
Rostering works really well;if you request your off days in time they build the pattern around your request.
Well, things are changing quick sometimes but in the moment foreigners are scheduled with expad instructors for the first 2 flights; so there are steps in the right direction from the korean side.
But if you join as a First Officer be aware that there is no career path.

[Human Cargo]

Zan is that you ???......
How's life on the 74?. Have you done your sim check? as yet.
Keep up the positive attitude and try to steer away from the stale kimche.
cheers.
John

[tom744]

Hi Human Cargo,

sorry, I'm not Zan.
But life on 744 is ok.....training sucked of course but since checkout nobody bothered me ever and I didn't touch kimchee anymore;)

cheers,
Tom

[azlee_19]

the threat is like 99% on B777 fleet only, 747 guys enjoy their training, am i correct$

[tom744]

Correct.
On the 744 it's neither better nor worse than anywhere else in Asia,
but on the 777 it seems to be politics;hopefully the management can intervene quickly.
They want the 777 drivers, why should they hire them,train them for 3 month and fire them at the end?
Makes no sense.
Guess the pilots union tries to sabotage expad training on the 777 cause they want their own guys upgrade from 737 to 777.
But it's not confirmed, just a guess.

[DoctorEcam]

...So......How's life on the Bus A330?????:}
Thks a lot

[16down2togo]

If you want a descent profile into Korean you'll better listn to tom744.
Everything else is speculation. Honestly one of the best 744 drivers out there, promise!!!
Would trust my family on him,everytime! Best pilot I ever met in 2 of them!

[KAL Aviator]

SEOUL, April 30 (Reuters) - Korean Air Co (003490.KS: Quote, Profile, Research), South Korea's top airline, announced a swing to a larger-than-expected quarterly net loss on Wednesday, pressured by higher fuel costs and a softer won currency <KRW=>.

After the result shares in Korean Air, which had in early trade as much as 4.58percent on softer oil prices, pared the gain to 0.76 percent at 52,700 won as of 0209 GMT.

Korean Air faces unfriendly skies this year due to ever-rising fuel prices and a slowing global economy, although the company can partially soften the impact with surcharges.The company is also struggling against intensified competition from budget carriers, especially Chinese airlines, analysts say.
"Jet fuel is too expensive to be cushioned only by surcharges. Manufacturers are also less and less eager to use air cargo amid higher oil prices," said Kang

Kwangsook, an analyst at CJ Investment & Securities.
Since January, South Korea has allowed Korean Air to more than double its fuel surcharges for international flights.

To cope with record high oil prices Korean Air is also seeking to raise fuel surcharges and air fares, which a company official said both need government approvals. Continued...

But Korean Air could be fighting a losing battle to swing back into the black, analysts say, as a weaker won may boost fuel costs even further.

The won's value <KRW=> against the dollar at the end of the first quarter was 5 percent lower than a year earlier and 5.5 percent lower than the end of the fourth quarter.

A softer won also bolsters the costs of servicing foreign currency-dominated debts; Korean Air had $4.9 billion in dollar debt and 430 million yen ($4.13 million) in yen debt as of the end of the first quarter. The debt mainly relates to aircraft purchasing and leasing.

The weaker currency may also impact demand for overseas trips as South Korean travellers tighten their belts.
Korean Air, the world's largest air cargo carrier, reported a 325.5 billion won ($324.3 million) net loss, in the first quarter ended on March 31, steeper than a forecast of 265.8 billion won loss in a Reuters poll of seven analysts.

That compared with a 130.8 billion won profit a year ago and a revised 35.3 billion won loss in the fourth quarter of 2007.
January-March operating profit stood at 19.6 billion won, missing a 39.3 billion won profit forecast in the Reuters' poll.

That was far below a 151.4 billion won profit a year earlier and a 128.6 billion won profit in the last quarter of 2007.

Korean Air used 1.3 percent more fuel in the first quarter from a year earlier, while fuel costs, the company's single-biggest cost item making up 30 percent of its operating expenses, jumped 49 percent.

Shares in Korean Air, with a market value of $4 billion, plunged 30.5 percent in the January-March period, underperforming a 10.2 percent fall in the wider market . ($1=104.06 Yen) ($1=1003.7 Won) (Editing by Marie-France Han and Keiron Henderson)

Go to the link below -
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSSEO34166620080430

[KAL Aviator]

Foreign Managers (AVP's, Advisors, Auditors) are not the root cause of Korean Air's safety problems. A background as to the Airline's Management practices may enlighten "Morning Calm", "Bulgogi Flyer" and any other sceptics out there as to the real problems within the Airline.

Korean Air Management is currently “reactive” with many situations and problems. A “proactive” approach will avoid problems by anticipating them and making the appropriate policy decisions to ensure they are correctly managed. It is not appropriate to apportion blame to an individual immediately, as there may be other causes of the problem. All problems must be evaluated. It may indeed have been as a result of a management or training problem that manifests itself in an incident/accident. An “open door policy” by management is the path to take for a free flow of information and flight crews must know that management will not “shoot the messenger”.
In general, all Korean Aircrew (Foreign and National) have the company's best interest at heart and wish to see Korean Air as a quality, International Airline.

Although Korean Air has been giving people negative consideration when choosing an airline to fly with, due to its not-too-good accident record in the past, the company is now striving to do their best in each area including emphasis on the safety standard. In the two most recent years, Korean Air has consecutive years of accident-free operations.

Korea is known as an authoritarian Confucian country. Under the authoritarian style of management, a parent-child of relationship can be seen in the company, top management gives out orders to the lower level which in turn expects its subordinates to carry out orders without questions asked. Decisions are made at the top with the similarity of a military type of organization which features such terminology as “Line and staff” and “Chain of command.” Top management does not expect, nor encourage participation of employees. Management presumes that employees hate work, and have to force them to carry out their jobs to achieve company’s objectives. Management uses fear to motivate employees. Feedback and opinions from employees are not welcomed and not encouraged. This type of management culture can easily be found in many Korean companies, as well as in Korean Air.

As Korean Air’s restructuring is an on-going event, the airline is beginning to be infused with a more open style of management (participatory style of management) where employees at all levels are allowed to raise their voices and share opinions. Korean Air has started to acquire skilled management to handle daily operations rather than nepotism, hiring friends and family members who were related to top management.

Korean Air has been through many changes since 1999. Its changes are reflected by the changing of management personnel to ensure safety is the number one priority for the company. Many senior managers have resigned from the company; and many younger professionals are invited into the company.

The communication style is a sub-set under management style. With the authoritarian mentality set in place in this company for many years, communication among employees within the company mainly flowed from management in top level to lower levels, where participation and discussion from lower level employees were not encouraged.

However, as mentioned earlier, Korean Air is going through many changes on the corporate structure and personnel levels. It is expected that the communication style is also changing to allow communications to flow easier to and from employees in a different level of corporate structure. As to communication to and from outside the company, Korean Air will become more accessible to outsiders and will have more communication with outsiders. However, as of today, Korean Air still has some distance to become a company where participation of all employees is valued and voices of outsiders is listened to.

The changing of corporate culture, management style, and corporate structure are three major internal challenges for Korean Air. These internal challenges are very common to businesses in both large and small scale.

For Korean Air, the company has been focusing on these challenges intensively in recent years.

Unfortunately, the ex-military pilot issue is likely to continue to vex Korean Air. Korean Air may want to change its pilot’s culture. Except for the foreign pilots, 95% of Korean Air captains are ex-military fliers.

There are three major issues that current ex-military pilots bring:

- Creating undesirable cockpit culture directly related to safety concerns

- Lack of communication skills

- Continual protesting for pay rises

The culture found inside the cockpit of Korean Air is basically rooted from the Military. The real problem is that the Military mentality plays a role in flying civil air carriers. These Military pilots are fearless and they often are criticized for their lack of concerns for passengers’ safety.

Based on the FOQA data gathered from most incidents and accidents within Korean Air over the years, these ex-Military pilots are usually the culprits of tarnishing the safe image of Korean Air as well as the pilot’s pay-raise disputes and continual threat of strike action.

Under the “obey or else” code at Korean Air, teamwork can be hard to be expected. First Officers (especially the Cheju trained pilots) are not able to express themselves even if they find something wrong with a Captain’s piloting skills. For a civilian First Officer to challenge a military-trained Captain would mean loss of face for the Captain.

A major issue and concern raised by the Cheju trained pilots is the fact that the Military pilots are given a 3 year seniority over their Civilian counterparts. This results in the Military pilots gaining their commands earlier than the Cheju graduates.

This seniority issue which is of great concern to the Cheju pilots can jeopardize safety, which is directly related to communication inside the cockpit. Despite Korean Air management’s tremendous efforts to improve its pilot’s communication skills, there are still some serious problems which can be detected in Korean Air’s pilots.

Korean Air needs to consider restructuring its pilot teams by gradually recruiting Korean Nationals who are trained at accredited professional aviation schools in the US, Canada, Europe or Australia.

Operationally, Korean Air needs to address the Civilian Vs Military pilot issues and consider the re-structuring of its policies regarding the seniority level the Military pilots are given over the Civilian pilots which breeds resentment, animosity, contempt and a general ill-feeling between flight crews in the same cockpit which ultimately effects flight safety.

Military pilots are not necessarily poor pilots, but they are trained to achieve their mission by taking risks, whereas Civilian airline pilots are required by law to achieve their mission by taking none. For this reason, Military pilots need to be completely retrained on joining an airline, a process most Western airlines perform successfully. However, many Asian airlines are predominately staffed by ex-Military pilots who bring to the airline an ethos of risk taking and an over-confidence in their abilities and this ethos infects the whole airline.

Korean Air's expansion over the past few years has been extraordinary and has resulted in crew promotion well beyond safe experience levels.

Military flying experience holds NO credit in airline operations as they are so totally different. Military and Civil aviators bring flying skills to the airline only. The actual airline job experience of both is zero. In airline operations, “there is no substitute for experience”. The airline normally pays a big price for any short cuts here.

Instructor pilot’s (LCP’s and DLCP’s in Korean Air) selection does not seem to have any bearing in instructional back round, qualification or ability. Instructors must be carefully selected and should be trained to International Airline standards. LCP training in Korean Air compared to International Airlines standards and practices appears to be inadequate compared to the other Major Airlines.

To solve this, management must select candidates for the post of LCP’s and DLCP’s and send them overseas for training at internationally recognized training establishments. They will be trained correctly to international standards and must return with the correct information to set up courses here. This is the core of the training department. (These courses should be attended every year so the company does not fall behind). This can then be taught to the Korean crews.

Negative or derogatory remarks on one’s Employer or its Managers are not the way forward and will produce a negative and highly damaging result to the entire Foreign Pilot workforce at Korean Air.

[CitationTen]

Informative posts and all (albeit mostly flogging the airline), but what about the original question that was being asked (which never was answered)?

What is the interview at KAL like, and what does it consist of?

[tom744]

Interview consists of basically 3 parts ( there might be 1 idle day in between, inclusive travel you need about 4 to 5 days off)

1st part: sim evaluation
Take off at ICN rwy 33L, SID, all with LNAV and VNAV.
Then you get an air turn back by ATC, join a holding pattern and execute the standart VOR DME 33R as published, full stop landing ( watch max landing weight, maybe you have to dump fuel)
Then you will get a V1 cut ( contaminated rwy, consider the performance), fly the eng out SID ( on rwy 33 at ICN it's "at 5 DME NCN left hdg 242", but the checker will advise you),
then holding and fuel dump if you haven't done it already on the 1st app.,
3 eng flight director ILS, go around, on downwind 2nd eng fail or fire or sev. damage, the visual app.(but ILS is working and anytime if you want you can use the autopilot unless he requests manual flight).
So I recommend to use what you have , just use the autopilot and the ILS and disconnect on short final).
Finally you do an RTO (contaminated rwy) but this could also happen before the V1 cut.
that's it.
You can use the procedures you are used to, bring your own QRH for your assisting pilot.
Also note that if you are invited you normally get the interview profile from your agency.

2nd part: medical
That sucks.
Beside normal testing they do lots of other tests like brain scan to you, take pictures from your eye and your iris and also a periphery vision test.
Here is important not to cheat (means do not press the butten if you don't see anything); the machine realizes every attempt and is then extending the test; it can be done in 10 to 15 min but if you're cheating you might need up to 45 min. know that from a friend who's an eye specialist and using the same equipment.
in the afternoon you have some more medical tests in a different place,it's the university hospital in Incheon.
Normally most of the applicants got any flag on something; they might ask you to come back next day or just see your local specialist at home and fax the result. Nothing to worry about but they are really picky on the initial medical; the follow ups are much more easy.

3rd day: interview:
You will be interviewed by a selection board, consists typically of 1 western captain and 2 to 3 korean management captains.
Mostly the ask you to refer a bit about your flying career,and you will be ask the typical questions like:
"why you want to join KAL, how you think to deal with asian crew, what's your CRM background?"
Also there are some technical questions, but no fancy stuff, just daily operation like "how you use the MEL, how to execute a proper go around, what to consider when rwy is contaminated?" and so on.
Duration about 10 min, very pleasant atmosphere.
Then you get about 100 US$ in korean won for taxi fares you had to pay upfront.
Well, and business class ticket with KAL from the nearest airport to your home and hotel accomodation is also provided.

Generally the interview process is pleasant and fair.

Hope it helps..

[j-p744]

Hi TOM
Could you tell us a little bit more about the monthly flight hours, P1 and P2, extra hours......on the B744,

Isn't it the perfect place to spend 120 hours a month ( 95 hours on duty and 25 to 30 to commute), 12 months a year in the plane and paid 75 hours ????

[CitationTen]

Helped a lot, many thanks!

[tom744]

j-p744,

average flying hours a years comes close to 1000, maybe 950 or something....
to be honest: chance to get overtime pay is very remote since they pay your bunk hours only half, like DH.
Means on a doudle crew flight with let's say 14 h you get 10,5 h credit ( 7 h on seat + 7 hours DH, payed half)
On 3-pilot crew flight with 9 h flight time you get 7,5 h credit ( 6 h on seat + 3 h DH, payed half).
On single crew full credit, of course.
Basically spoken you need about 95 h / month to get overtime pay, I personally get overtime pay about 3 times a year, better don't count on it.
P1 and P2 is balanced on multi crew flights and in between there are still some short sectors within Asia with single crew.
Worth to metion is that the 1000 h limitation is always consecutive and not within a calendar year; so in your 2nd year after check out you'll fly a lot less and it's a bit more relaxed.
Commuting home doesn't count towards your pay but towards your annual limit; so they try to make you operate home if they can.
But in fact it doesn't matter id you aren't on overtime since commuting is always duty time;
off day starts the day after you arrived home; duty starts the day you leave your home.
But yes, they squeeze you as much they can...but for the average 14 days/month home I get (including a extra trip) it's worth to me.

[B737NG]

Tom forgott to tell you that just 2 more Guy´s where sent home not good enough and one more got screwed in the B744..... So think twice what you wish for. You need a lot of luck to survive as well.

Fly safe land happy

NG

[tom744]

NG,

didn't talk about training, just the interview.
Indeed if you aren't familiar with asian culture it is tough but still most guys on 744 pass the training.
And again, like said in previous posts already:
The job is only yours once you are checked out but meanwhile everybody coming here should know that.

Fly safe,

Tom

[16down2togo]

Good quote Thomas,
those people still want everything according to their home enviroment but all the asian advantages - 500h lh 737 and a command on the monster within a year.
Not so much fun if you'd relay on them in Halong or his friends.
Take care my friend.

[tom744]

Hi Stefan,

you are perfectly right!
BTW, say Hi to Tim...I'll be back home by 5th of June,
hope we can meet then...

cheers Thomas

[SRS]

Exellent post and analysis KAL aviator.:ok: This style of management is not unique to Korea but can be found in China and Japan as well. The results of the military culture can be seen in the accident history of these airlines. That being said there has been a great effort to change this culture, although change is slow in the East.

[16down2togo]

I will do although he flew with a different Cpt so I don't see him anymore on that rotation.
I'm just so tired of all this career short haul min cmd guys trying to snatch an easy widebody cmd without any idea what they're talking about, stick them into a proper typhoon and have their F/O's clean their seats afterwards with them still asking for the proper respect.
Get yourself a life!!!
BTW I am not flying for Korean or any other asian carrier before you jump on me guys.
Call me when you are home
Stefan

[botaxgendeng]

Lets them find their own people. At least good for young Korean f/o
to be up grade.
ain ji ase o:D

[dream2fly3]

Hi,

Are they really short on crews? I see their Ads for recruiting everywhere.
Thanks

Dream2fly3

[Geragau]

With the depreciating greenback, it's far cheaper for them to employ foreigners. For the locals their T&Cs involves lots of down time off days and extra classese like English proficiency, safety seminars, national service refreshers etc. Also, paying big $s for pilots' kids studying in prestigious Korean & foreign varsities. My korean F/Os tell me that the company also find their pilots from Jeju cadet school are rebellious, prone to staging strikes and sit outs. So KAL is contend to wait for the military to release pilots as these are very compliant to company demands. However the numbers from the military does not meet their requirements, so their stop gap measure.......foreign suckers coming in as f/os. Seems that these foreign f/os hope to be upgraded, after hearing of upgrades of foreign B737 skippers to the B744 two or three years ago.

[WallyBallbearing]

I think those "suckers" are living in their home countries about 12 days a month or more and pulling in about 9400 usd (with Perdiem) a month. Not bad for a bunch of "suckers". :rolleyes:

[fullforward]

...but have you ever flew with a typical korean captain, with all that CRM and military background?

[maxxthrust]

I don't know if I called them suckers, but the expat 737 FOs aren't making 9000 a month, they're making 6x00 a month, only have 9 hard days off, 3 "soft" (commuting) days, and there is no way they're gonna have a chance to upgrade or transition into anything bigger/better becuase the KAL union won't allow it. There's one thing bringing in ex-pat captains with a lot of command experience in type, but Korean Air won't waste the time and effort upgrading and/or transitioning expat FOs. If they did that, most would leave after a couple years having the type and a couple thousand hours command under their belt and not finish the contract, and Korean Air ain't that dumb. So if growth and/or upward movement is something you value, then Korean Air is not where you want to go. If you're furloughed and just need a job though, then this is better than nothing.

And if any of the contract agencies say there is a potential for upgrade and/or transition, they are just blowing smoke up your APU becuase they want you to sign with them. Ain't gonna happen. Korean Air's union actually has some teeth, unlike the pathetic attempt of a union Asiana has.

[dream2fly3]

Hi,
Has anyone landed a captain position with 747 classic times?
Thanks!

[Geragau]

If they did that, most would leave after a couple years having the type and a couple thousand hours command under their belt and not finish the contract, and Korean Air ain't that dumb

Guess KAL administration was and is still dumb; heard from previous KAL employees of good standing in the sandpit that KAL was duped by some South African B737 skippers masquerading as B744 skippers ( with only cruise pilot time ). They are still being duped by dodgy folks from dodgy outfits trying their luck with non rated B777/744 skipper ratings. Hard to believe but I was told by good authority to be very true!

[HighSpeedClimb]

A friend of mine just finished his interview 5 days ago...5/27/08...He said it was very respectful and he was impressed. I spoke with him about all these posts on this thread and asked what he thought. He spoke to 3 different Captains all Expats and they said a bunch of Delta guys helped change things drastically over the last 3 to 4 months. I just received my invitation to interview and was informed that once in training Alteon in Seoul provides it all. These guys are American's or Foreigner's so has the intimidation training changed?? Does anyone have very recent intel? thanks :ugh:

[ukipilot]

They are hiring a bunch of B737NG Captains, does anyone know if it is as bad as the B777 program? I am looking at doing the July interview and want to know what to expect at the interview. Is the Sim ride in the 737 or what ever aircraft is available? The contract is with CCL, do they give you the sim profile? I already have the type, so no loss.

Thanks for the help in advance

[HighSpeedClimb]

My Buddy got a 28 page packet and was paired up with another interviewed guy, an old Aloha friend. You get V1 cuts single engine app to miss, rejected TO with the engine failing, not on fire. 2 engine 30 Knot Xwind landing and a flap problem. This was split between 2 guys though. The instructors weren't as concerned about the flying as they were about the procedures, which you use your own from your last company. He said it was positive. Might see you there..

[tom744]

ukipilot,

look up the korean interview thread, you will find lot's of information there.
As I know the 737 guys just did fine here, and CCL provides you with the sim profile too, so so can prepare.
SIM is pretty straightforward, on 737-800.

Good luck,

Tom 744

[B737NG]

Getting thru the interview and SIM is straight forward, the medical is a little thorough for some people who are not used to the NASA-test in GMP.......

The training is still the biggest Lottery you have. If you have a Rebel-IP then you can relay on it, if he is from the Old Guard.... ?!?! what is then Tom? He won´t pass you, you can fly like a Eagle and a Condor together but if the Callout is not where it should be you are toast and you know that.

Fly safe and land happy

NG :D

[kings]

For those of you who went for the job as Captain with Korean Air how long did you have to wait after the SIM/med/interview to hear from them again on whether you got the job or not?

Thanks

[tom744]

expect about 2 weeks notice; you will recieve an email from your agency.

Good luck

[Jackaroo 2]

Guys n Gals -

NOTE:
1. There will NEVER be a Foreign GAL in the left seat in KAL land.
2. Divorce rate in Korea is 60%
3. The attitude some have experienced and noted on this thread ref
'arseho!e' IP/LCPs is the same attitude that is dished out to Korean
ladies.
4. How many other airlines in the world have parked (10-11?) acft 'off rwy'?
5. Korean Society is 5000yrs old. They think all other societies are inferior
to their level of 'perfection'
6. If a KAL stewardess is seen 'socialising' with foreign crew - she is
TERMINATED.
7. Even if KAL paid US$19,400/mth, I would NOT fly for them!!!!!!!!!
I would rather drive a rubbish truck - at least the trash is honest.

:E

[mascamel]

Jack....good on you! The KAL **** may really stink for the likes of you, but there are very many who love that cesspool besides waxing lyrical on their highly appreciated 9 continuous days off and deadheading in 1st class. The former bush drivers and people from " fly by night, hide by day " outfits never had it so good.......wow first class service to paxing crew! It's heaven, until the day they arrive at the pearly gates for an audience with good old Peter after becoming a KAL statistic whilst happily paxing or as augment crew! There may be some fairly rich widows though!

[kings]

Thanks tom744

[cactusbusdrvr]

Thanks for all the information. I have just found out that I can take a 2 year leave of absence so I updated my info with PARC and sent my stuff to Rishworth. I got a notice that I am qualified for the 777 non typed Captain contract. I am current on the 757, typed on the 767 with 3100 hours capt on the 757, 7200 hours capt on the A 320 series and 21000 total time.

It sounds like I may be marginally qualified in the eyes of some Korean LCPs. I was actually hired at Asiana back in 1995 on the 737 as capt but I did not take the contract due to my company cancelling LOAs. I am familiar with the need for learning the profiles by rote, it sounds like little has changed in 14 years, but I would still like to do something different, particulaly since my airline sucks right now and I would like to bank some cash and a new type for a couple of years.

Does anyone know what the actual T and Cs are? I would like a little more information before I decide to commit to going through this process.

[tom744]

cactusbusdrvr,

look up www.cclaviation.com (http://www.cclaviation.com) or www.gapaviation.com (http://www.gapaviation.com) .
There you will find actual T & C's , and I would highly recommend one of these 2 agencies if you consider KAL.
Concerning the training BS I can tell more when the actual course is through; but if you can leave the door open to your current job I would say you are safe.

Good luck

[Barney Rock]

2008, 12:50 #108 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4152093&postcount=108) Geragau (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=186773)

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 51


Quote:
If they did that, most would leave after a couple years having the type and a couple thousand hours command under their belt and not finish the contract, and Korean Air ain't that dumb
Guess KAL administration was and is still dumb; heard from previous KAL employees of good standing in the sandpit that KAL was duped by some South African B737 skippers masquerading as B744 skippers ( with only cruise pilot time ). They are still being duped by dodgy folks from dodgy outfits trying their luck with non rated B777/744 skipper ratings. Hard to believe but I was told by good authority to be very true!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=4152093)

Aha, the dodgy folks from apartheid land had great help from an internal Korean source............a corrupt flight admin manager by the name of edkim, who was later sacked! However the manpower and flight ops divisions could not live down the loss of face and nobody squeaked to the KMOCT; so the Boers are still happily driving the 744s and feeling smug that the fooled everybody besides thinking that they must have been really good to progressed impressively from lowly cruise captains to jumbo mahouts!

[Molokai]

How would you know if you had not been a KAL insider ? Are you the infamous canuck Bill that many of the kimchi boys talk about?
I heard many strange things went on during the late 90s in KAL, the gloomy days when they had crashes after crashes! Well it seem that have really done well..................no major prangs for almost a decade.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Thanks for the info, Tom.

[saviboy]

I am not familiar with contract work.\\\

If the contract is supposed to last 5 years, does that mean I not free to take another job during the 5 years. can i break the contract.
are there any penalties?

thanks

[tom744]

saviboy,

in this case ( KAL ) you can resign 1 year after check out.
If you do before they impose a 15000 US$ penalty for the training costs.

[775454]

Hi Tom,
I am sked for an interview for 777 Capt. Am typed with
over a 1000 hrs in type. And currently working. Are the KAL rules that much different from Boeing proc? Why a 3 month training course?

Thanks

[fullforward]

Are you really serious about about risking your present job for the sad lottery KAL was transformed?:confused:
Please read some hundreds of posts around here...
Just my two cents.

[wakarandi]

I would like to know wich lines are covered by the A330. Thank you!

[AQFlyer]

To all who complain endlessly here about the unfair treatment you have received, and for those who wonder what all the complaining is about, please read the following. If you didn't make it through the training, you didn't deserve to. You may be the best pilot the world has ever seen, but if you can't comply with the Korean way, you WILL NOT survive the training. Attitude is everything. You must fly well, but if your attitude is poor, your training experience will also be poor and you will fail. I have seen so many of you come and go from KAL, and other Asian carriers. When you commit to flying here in Asia, you MUST leave the mentality of your home country behind. You are not in Kansas anymore! Come with the attitude that you know nothing about procedures for the aircraft you fly, and follow those given to you by KAL. Do not quote Boeing procedures either. You are flying for KAL, not your former carrier, or Boeing. Fifty percent of the battle is compliance. If you fly well, you have the other fifty percent licked. I apologize if I have bruised any egos, but the majority of the tales of woe I read here, don't reveal the real, or whole truth. For those of you who are here to get information to better make a decision about coming to Asia, read the sim/interview profile info and skip those that have nothing good to say. For the most part, this site is a place where those who THINK they have been wronged, come to bitch and moan. I have many friends here at KAL, none of whom are unhappy. It is what you make of it. :ok:

Cheers

[Capt.Bee]

AQFlyer

AQFlyer:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hawaii, USA
Posts: 13 Take home pay
"Skymark 737-800 Captain, 1st year, $13,200 USD per month. This includes housing and living money and a little extra because I get paid in JPY and the dollar has been weak. If all the currencies were equal, I am guaranteed $12,500 per month. It's the best contract in the World! "

You are small potato buddy. If you get the drift....

"If you didn't make it through the training, you didn't deserve to."

Once again big words, coming from a small mind.
Overall: live well in your small content world /you are the best/ and don't make statements, when you are not qualified to. ;)

[Sitting Bull]

Gentlemen:

Does anyone what

1. the CURRENT selection A330 Sim scenario looks like?

2. type of A330 technical questions are CURRENTLY being asked?

I'd appreciate your help.

Thanks

[cactusbusdrvr]

Are there any updates on the KAL interview and sim profiles?

[portquartercv67]

Regardless the fleet, most guys make it through the program, albiet not without some bruises. However, it seems that monthly someone in training doesn't make it. Heard that recently a 330 Captain was fired, without a second chance, same for a 777 Captain. The KAL flagwavers will say it was the pilot's fault, the KAL bashers will say it was the company. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, closer to the side of KAL bashers in my opinion. The 330 Captain in question was an IP on the a/c for years at his previous airline (Asian). Hard to believe he became senile after arriving in ICN. Maybe allergic to kimchi?

[BlackWater01]

anybody has some 2009 up-date on
KAL recruiting process (when,where,what,why,whatever!),
KAL way of behavin with western FO;
KAL capabilities on up-grades western FO in Cpt;
KAL benefit;
KAL western basing possibilities
KAL pay rate FP/Cpt

[capt777chris]

Thought I'd send this, it came from a friend: Without putting his job on the line suffice it to say this is very recent.

"yes I take my casa oral tomorrow, and my line check friday..Its been hell..The failure rate here is outrageous. It is not the fault of the pilots in training, but the system of training itself."

[BuzzLightyears]

Hey Chris

so you are one of the few lucky guys being able to survive so far!

...

[capt777chris]

No I was too old at "under age 58" for their captain position. And too few brain cells to memorize everything for F/O. Not to mention unwilling to downgrade to F/O for the money and not having the correct anatomy for the left seat.

[BuzzLightyears]

... but what do you think of KAL according to your direct experience with them! ... reading all the post can be really disoriented if you are looking to find same positive information for your first airline employment (and of course as a FO)!

thanks Chris

[batsky2000]

Hello to the KAL guys, I have an interview for a B737 PIC position in April through CCL and have a few questions about how the contract works to those who are in the know.

I am currently flying a BBJ, G-IV, and a Challenger for a private company that is shutting down their flight department like most of them here in the US. I have 1500 hours as a PIC on the BBJ. I was laid off from Delta way back in 2001 and have not been interested in working for an airline again, but the KAL contarct is rather appealing to me. I would get more time off than I get now, and I enjoy flying in Asia, and have experience in that part of the world.

1) What is the schedule like while you are on duty? Is it 6 on 1 off or something else? How are the schedules built? Do you get a reserve line for a bit, or do you get a real line right off the bat?

2) I plan to take the 11 days off option, how many days do they give you to commute? I will be using ATL as my base, and heard that you get 3 days, 2 to travel to work, a 1 to get home, but just want to get the real number from someone who knows.

3) I understand that they put you up at the Hyatt while at base, what types of ammenities do they offer if any? Do you guys get free breakfast, free internet? The Internet would be the best freebe

4) Does the company issue a cell phone for company use, or do you need to get one yourself? How do they normally contact you?

5) Who pays for the business class tickets? Does the cotractor (CCL) in my case pay for the ticket, or does KAL put you on a positive space business class ticket to/from your base? I ask this because I am interested if you guys collect FF miles, I am platinum medalion on Delta with about 900,000 miles in my account and am just wondering since KAL is a skyteam member. This would be a huge bonus to this contract, if not are there ways to get the miles?

Thanks for the answers in advance

[johntrav69]

batsky - already answered on the Korean thread to save those delicate typing fingers!

[BuzzLightyears]

Tom
do you have the same useful information for the not so like 777 Cpt interview!

thanks

[tom744]

Buzz

medical and interview are the same for all fleets of course....
and concerning the evaluation rides let me find out if there are some news when I'm back in Seoul.

Cheers,
Tom

[BuzzLightyears]

thanks partner!

[fullforward]

Waiting eagerly for your flashlight!....:ok: