A small detail for UK NATS staff (National ID cards)

[SystemsAddict]

Apologies in advance for bringing this up if it doesn't apply to you personally, but over at the NATS forum, we have been having a conversation concerning National ID cards and the National Identity Register. From the latest government consultation document it seems as though all airside staff are going to have to be enrolled in this 'voluntary' scheme on penalty of losing our jobs (and it seems unlikely that the same requirements will not be rolled out to all other NATS staff as well). Some people seem to have no issue with this, and others of us have, well, a differing viewpoint. Again, my apologies if this is being dealt with in another thread, but I thought it was worthwhile bringing up for discussion here as well.

[NeoDude]

I don't see any issue with this. The same with the DNA database. If you have nothing to hide then what do you have to lose? If it is going to improve crime figures and help control immigration then I'm all for it.

[Scooby Don't]

Neo - it's called a slippery slope. First you give up this one liberty... Oh, hang on, it's the UK. Most of the liberties have already gone. May as well let the government implant an ID chip under your skin. My dog doesn't seem to mind it, and if it helps the crime figures... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Thehitman]

Neo

Please explain how ID cards for airside workers will help control immigration.

[NeoDude]

I was talking about ID cards in general. Give ID cards to everyone. And get everyone on the DNA database. Nothing to hide, nothing to fear. I would be the first to volunteer my DNA sample.

[rab-k]

Nothing to hide, nothing to fear

WRONG!

The biggest thing all of us have to fear is the lack of security displayed by those who retain all the information.

We've already seen how slip-shod the current system is with regard to handling our bank details, NI numbers, DoB etc. Anything in fact that the unscrupulous could use to their own criminal ends.

This lot would have a tough time keeping a toilet cubicle door secure, never mind anything else.

The less info HM Govt. hold on me, the less the useless B*****ds will be likely to lose.

Not that we ever go 'airside' here, our NATS / Airport I-D should be all a person needs to go about their legitimate day-to-day business on behalf of our employer.

[NeoDude]

WRONG!

The biggest thing all of us have to fear is the lack of security displayed by those who retain all the information.

But they already have all this information on us anyway. What difference will it make requiring everybody to have an ID card? Or giving their DNA?

[rab-k]

Break over and back to work.

NeoDude - recon we'll likely not agree on such. However, similar thread with 'Rant Mode Off' selected here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=316759)

:ok:

[flower]

If the National Identity card were just that i.e. a photo card confirmed with your identity then i doubt many would object but it is much more than that. All sorts of information is to be stored via it including your credit rating and goodness knows what else ( I wouldn't be at all surprised if DNA didn't enter into the fray at some point) .

This is introducing a national scheme by stealth a supposedly non compulsory scheme which will be compulsory or you lose your job. Every airport worker wears an ID badge already, if there are problems with that scheme then reinforce that rather than bring yet another security check. I doubt if the badge they give you from a national scheme will be compatible with airports security systems so either airports have to bring in a new one at great expense or people have to carry around 2 badges of ID.

National Identity cards do not improve national security, and when the terrorist crimes committed in the UK over the last 3 decades were in the main perpetrated by British Citizens anyway who are they trying to kid. It's just another way of reinforcing Big brother Britain

[rogervisual]

I too have concerns about the ID card scheme and do not like the government using airport workers as a way of slowly implementing it through the back door ,under the umbrella of national security etc. so joe public will not argue with it.
Anyone whether you agree with the scheme or not can see that the government have realised a national launch would not work , because they fear poll tax type demostrations ,so this is the latest plan.
Very clever by the government because if we object its like saying you are against national security measures.

WE ARE BEING USED MY FRIENDS

[forget]

If it is going to improve crime figures and help control immigration then I'm all for it.

:p:p:p

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/cn_news_home/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=263753

[anotherthing]

Neo,

I am against ID cards because in my opinion they will not stop illegal imigration by any great number and they will definately not stop attacks like the London bombings from happening.

After the London bombings, the government pushed harder for ID cards saying they would help prevent these atrocities... not true as those responsible would have been legally entitled to cary the ID Card.

As for illegal immigrants, how exactly will an ID Card cut the numbers by any significant proportion? They smuggle themselves (or get smuggled by others) into this country. They are not being caught at ports, or on the many small secluded bays they can land at.
Why? Because we do not have the resources allocated (nor the political will power) to prevent immigration at source.

Do you think that if a bunch of people get caught sneaking into the country they are allowed to continue on their way because we do not as yet have an ID Card system in force? They flood into this country because the vast majority of them do not get caught.

Once they get into the country, forging 'official' documents is not exactly difficult.

Having an ID Card that the authorities can check is all very well... you have to catch them first before you can check for it - and catching them is not happening.

We have all seen pictures of 'Illegals' on the continental mainland gathering in numbers waiting for darkness... the French authorities et al turn a blind eye becauses they are off loading the problem to us!

Instead of ID Cards, maybe we should stop being such a soft touch to the scroungers on benefits... then we will not be as attractive a prospect for people to come to!

[NeoDude]

Yep, I do agree that they will not solve all these problems by themselves. But it's certainly a step in the right direction. In the future I would like to see this ID card replace all our credit/bank cards, driving license, work IDs and even pilot/ATC licenses. I do have reservations about how secure the info would be but I reckon that overall it's a good idea.

[mr grumpy]

The UK ID card will not be compatible with airport ID systems unless the latter are completely replaced. Citizens will not be required to carry the UK ID card (mind you, it's also supposed tp be voluntary) so you will therefore have to have your airport card to obtain entrance. Given the checks we have to go through to obtain the airport ID card, is the infringement of our rights going to make any difference to security?

It's easy to pick on us, airport security is headline stuff, but we should resist. happily, if you look around, resistance is growing. I won't go without a fight.

[PPRuNe Radar]

It's not just an issue for NATS staff. Anyone working airside at a UK airport will be hit by this scheme.

[rogervisual]

Neodude, wake up smell the coffee . We are being used. I to are not totally against them in principle and have lived in countries where it has been mandatory to have one., but i object to being used by the government and the whole argument being manipulated in order that they get what they want. This governments attitude is, if they dont get the answer they want they change the rules or move the goal posts so that they eventually get what they want.(just like the EU constitution):ugh:
The total apathy and general attitude of "theres not much we can do about it" really gets to me. We are a democracy and its about time we stood up for our rights and made the people we elected(not me personally)
listen to us.

[niknak]

For less than £100, and often for free, I could find out where most of you live, your credit record and many other personal details such as shopping habits and many other personal preferences.
All I have to do is to become a registered UK company and sign up to the many organisations who offer these details.
If you hold any sort of personal loyality or credit card (Tesco, Sainsbury down to the smallest) and haven't opted out of their right to sell on your details, then it's a complete doddle to get your details.

Whilst I have no objection to an ID card, if they can't get the driving licence right, or the above, what's the point?

[Standard Noise]

Well to all those who say 'there's nothing to fear' and ' they have all these details anyway', then why don't the government just go ahead and issue the ID cards to all of us now?

This government is incapable of letting us live our lives and keeping us safe by conventional means (safe and secure borders, adequate policing etc) so it is trying to force us into a scheme which is ill thought out and unsuitable for what they claim it will achieve.

We should stand up with BALPA and say no. As I've said before, if they don't listen then 'All out brothers.'

[DFC]

Instead of ID Cards, maybe we should stop being such a soft touch to the scroungers on benefits... then we will not be as attractive a prospect for people to come to!

Illegal immigrants are attracted to the UK because there is plenty of British Employers willing to pay them cash and offer them a hiding place and the ability to live unnoticed outside the system.

If the only way to work in the UK was via the legal route there would be no point in illegal immigrants travelling.

Close down the British sources of illegal employment for illegal workers (both immigrant and nationals) and there will end a large part of the problem.

By requiring only UK national who work in a secure well checked industry to have the ID cards the Authorities have neatly avoided the issue. Of course the thousands of foreign people who are quite entitled to work in UK aviation and who choose to do so will not have to worry about loosing their jobs.

I can just see it - mass dismissal of UK Nationals who refuse to have the voluntary ID card - to be replaced by Foreign people who are quite entitled to have the job and just as qualified but who do not have to have an ID card!

Of course those people are far cheaper for the Governemt - unlike many UK people they either work or leave the country and when they retire they in the majority of cases also leave the country. If everyone was like that the Government would save trillions.

Regards,

DFC

[BAND4ALL]

Put yourself here.

You are out for a drive in the car. You stop for a break, smoke a tab. Get on your way.

A week later a nutter dumps a body in the hedge.

Body gets found, SOC move in - you get a dawn raid.

Well members of the Jury. Hair was found at the scene, the DNA led us to Mr bollocked via the database.

When we looked in his garage there was the means of transporting the body - the car even has mud matching that of the scene.

Where were you on the evening of - err at home reading a book, out for a drive. Can you prove that, no - oh dear thats life for you then.

Oh did you hear about bollocked, yeah never would have thought but he was bang to rights the scum bag.....

At present you have to be a suspect for real reasons and DNA is there to assist final ID - this gives some protection. With a database you just become the first to get nailed, crime gets solved figures look good.

[BDiONU]

Put yourself here.

ROFL!!! Are you serious? Completely circumstantial evidence, not enough to convict.

BD

[BAND4ALL]

BD- if no evidence or links can be found to identify who committed a crime except a DNA sample at the scene, the person to whom that DNA belongs is instantly the number one suspect. Would you want to be in his shoes?

Without a database 'other' evidence would have to be found in order to ID that person in the first place. This is a perfect safe guard.

With a database the person would be picked up straight away, other lines of investigation could get sidelined. Hence the increased chance of an injustice.

There is always pressure to nail someone for the crime, in these circumstances no immediate ID is good because it forces all lines of enquiry to be taken in full.

It’s not the use of DNA directly; it’s the immediate finger of suspicion and the ease of a fit up I don't agree with.:ok:

[BDiONU]

BD- if no evidence or links can be found to identify who committed a crime except a DNA sample at the scene, the person to whom that DNA belongs is instantly the number one suspect. Would you want to be in his shoes?
If I hadn't done the crime why would I worry? Juries don't convict on that type of circumstantial evidence alone. There must be compelling evidence beyond the fact that you were merely at the scene sometime. In UK the jury must be certain beyond reasonable doubt.

BD

[flower]

I think you will find that the appeal court in the Jill Dando murder may disagree with you BDiONU.
The DNA issue is of grave concern because we all transfer our DNA wherever we go, you may be innocent and yes of course more than likely not charged with anything but we all know once arrested under suspicion the chances are many will consider you guilty and that may have a significant affect on your career and life. If there is a national database for DNA I would suspect there would be many more arrests of innocents during an investigation before they find the perpetrator.

[BAND4ALL]

BD - If you think the legal system is fool proof, that juries cannot be very easily lead and that they get the full facts then do some research.
Cases get 'built' around single items of evidence. Very rarely does a trial consist of fully proven facts.
Convictions are often secured because the prosecution has given a better story than the defence.

Try and do some study into Jury behavior. Single members can lead others, a word from a judge can swing a jury, the performance and personality of a defendant can make or break their case.

Look at the way the public turned when papers reported DNA found in a car after a child went missing!!

You can find details of cases you'd think the person had no chance of being put behind bars yet they were.

I am sorry but IT IS BETTER TO LET TWO GUILTY PEOPLE GO FREE RATHER THAN CONVICT ONE INNOCENT PERSON

It is not just the implications on justice though. DNA profiling may have some benefits in highlighting future medical complications but it can also be extremely sinister.

What would medical Ins make of it?

How long before it becomes part of a job application requirement?:=

Right I'm finished, it's good to talk, night night.........zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Rightbase]

Surely DNA evidence makes it easier to eliminate suspects. I would have thought a DNA database would only turn up one suspect, rather than giving rise to 'many more arrests'.

Or am I missing something?

[BDiONU]

I think some of the readers of this thread should watch the film Gattaca (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/plotsummary). wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca) entry, youtube trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7OYCmynrRU).

BD

[BDiONU]

BD - If you think the legal system is fool proof, that juries cannot be very easily lead and that they get the full facts then do some research.

Try and do some study into Jury behavior. Single members can lead others, a word from a judge can swing a jury, the performance and personality of a defendant can make or break their case.
Yeah I've read the book Runaway Jury :rolleyes:

BD

[alfie1999]

The problems with "ID Cards"
Not just a card. The card is the least of it... #


The proposed identity management system has multiple layers #


The NIR (National Identity Register) — individual checking and numbering of the population — marking many personal details as "registrable facts" to be disclosed and constantly updated — collection and checking of biometrics (e.g. fingerprints) — the card itself — a widespread scanner network and secure (one hopes) infrastructure connecting it to the central database — provision for use across the private and public sectors — data-sharing between organisations on an unprecedented scale.


Massive accumulation of personal data #

50 categories of registrable fact are set out in the Bill, though they could be added to. Effectively an index to all other official and quasi-official records, through cross-references and an audit trail of all checks on the Register, the NIR would be the key to a total life history of every individual, to be retained even after death.


Lifelong surveillance and the meta-database #

Every registered individual will be under an obligation to notify any change in registrable facts. It is a clear aim of the system to require identity verification for many more civil transactions, the occasions to be stored in the audit trail. Information verified and indexed by numbers from the NIR would be easily cross-referenced in any database or set of databases. The "meta-database" of all the thousands of databases cross-referenced is much more powerful and much less secure than the NIR itself.


Overseas ID cards are not comparable #

Many western countries that have ID cards do not have a shared register. Mostly ID cards have been limited in use, with strong legal privacy protections. In Germany centralisation is forbidden for historical reasons, and when cards are replaced, the records are not linked. Belgium has made use of modern encryption methods and local storage to protect privacy and prevent data-sharing, an approach opposite to the Home Office's. The UK scheme is closest to those of some Middle Eastern countries and of the People's Republic of China—though the latter has largely given up on biometrics.


The Government has not made a case. There is no evidence the system will produce the stated benefits. Less liberty does not imply greater security. #


Terrorism #

ID does not establish intention. Competent criminals and terrorists will be able to subvert the identity system. Random outrages by individuals can't be stopped. Ministers agree that ID cards will not prevent atrocities. A blank assertion that the department would find it helpful is not an argument that would be entertained for fundamental change in any other sphere of government but national security. Where is the evidence? Research suggests there is no link between the use of identity cards and the prevalence of terrorism, and in no instance has the presence of an identity card system been shown a significant deterrent to terrorist activity. Experts attest that ID unjustifiably presumed secure actually diminishes security.


Illegal immigration and working #

People will still enter Britain using foreign documents—genuine or forged—and ID cards offer no more deterrent to people smugglers than passports and visas. Employers already face substantial penalties for failing to obtain proof of entitlement to work, yet there are only a handful of prosecutions a year.


Benefit fraud and abuse of public services #

Identity is "only a tiny part of the problem in the benefit system." Figures for claims under false identity are estimated at £50 million (2.5%) of an (estimated) £2 billion per year in fraudulent claims.


"Identity fraud" #

Both Australia and the USA have far worse problems of identity theft than Britain, precisely because of general reliance on a single reference source. Costs usually cited for of identity-related crime here include much fraud not susceptible to an ID system. Nominally "secure", trusted, ID is more useful to the fraudster. The Home Office has not explained how it will stop registration by identity thieves in the personae of innocent others. Coherent collection of all sensitive personal data by government, and its easy transmission between departments, will create vast new opportunities for data-theft.


Overcomplicated, unproven technology #

Computer system #

IT providers find that identity systems work best when limited in design. The Home Office scheme combines untested technologies on an unparalleled scale. Its many inchoate purposes create innumerable points for failure. The government record with computer projects is poor, and the ID system is likely to end up a broken mess.


Biometrics #

Not all biometrics will work for all people. Plenty are missing digits, or eyes, or have physical conditions that render one or more biometrics unstable or hard to read. All systems have error. Deployment on a vast scale, with variably trained operators and variably maintained and calibrated equipment, will produce vast numbers of mismatches, leading to potentially gross inconvenience to millions.


Identity Cards will cost money that could be better spent #


No ceiling #

The Government has not ventured figures for the cost to the country as whole of the identity management scheme. That makes evaluation difficult. Civil Service IT experience suggests current projections are likely to be seriously underestimated. Home Office figures are for internal costs only, and have risen sharply—where they are not utterly obscure. Industry estimates suggest that public and private sector compliance costs could easily be double whatever is spent centrally.


Opportunity costs #

The Government has not even tried to show that national ID management will be more cost-effective than less spectacular alternative, targeted, solutions to the same problems (whether tried and tested or novel). We are to trust to luck that it is.


Taxpayer pain #

Even at current Home Office estimates, the additional tax burden of setting up the scheme will be of the order of £200 per person. The direct cost to individuals (of a combined passport and ID card package) is quoted as £93. The impact on other departmental and local authority budgets is unknown. The scope and impact of arbitrary penalties would make speed cameras trivial by comparison.


Unchecked executive powers #

Broad delegated power #

The Home Office seeks wide discretion over the future shape of the scheme. There are more than 30 types of regulatory power for future Secretaries of State that would change the functions and content of the system ad lib. The scope, application and possible extension are extra-parliamentary decisions, even if nominally subject to approval.


Presumption of accuracy #

Data entered onto the National Identity Register (NIR) is arbitrarily presumed to be accurate, and the Home Secretary made a judge of accuracy of information provided to him. Meanwhile, the Home Office gets the power to enter information without informing the individual. But theres no duty to ensure that such data is accurate, or criterion of accuracy. Personal identity is implicitly made wholly subject to state control.


Compulsion by stealth #

Even during the so-called "voluntary phase", the Home Secretary can add any person to the Register without their consent, and categories of individuals might be compelled selectively to register using powers under any future legislation. Anyone newly applying for a passport or other "designated document", or renewing an existing one, will automatically have to be interviewed and submit all required details. This is less a phased introduction than a clandestine one. There is to be no choice. And the minimum of notice to the public about the change in the handling of their registrable information.


Limited oversight #

As proposed, the National Identity Scheme Commissioner would have very limited powers and is excluded from considering a number of key issues. He does not even report directly to Parliament. The reliance on administrative penalties means severe punishments may be inflicted without judicial process. The onus is on the individual to seek relief from the courts, at a civil standard of proof. Those who most require the protection of a fair trial are the least likely to be able to resort to legal action.


Individuals managed by executive order #

Without reference to the courts or any appeals process, the Home Secretary may cancel or require surrender of an identity card, without a right of appeal, at any time. Given that the object of the scheme is that an ID card will be eventually required to exercise any ordinary civil function, this amounts to granting the Home Secretary the power of civic life and death.


The National Identity Register creates specific new threats to individuals #


Discrimination—no guarantees #


There have been vapid "assurances" made to some minority groups. That underlines the potential for threat. The system offers a ready-made police-state tool for a future government less trustworthy than the current one. A Home Secretary could create classifications of individuals to be registered as he sees fit, introducing onerous duties backed by severe penalties for fractions of the population. Religious or ethnic affiliation, for example, could be added to the Register by regulation—or be inferred by cross-referencing other information using a National Identity Register Number or associated data.


"Papers, please" #

ID cards in practice would provide a pretext for those in authority—public or private—to question individuals who stand out for reasons of personal appearance or demeanour. This is likely to exacerbate divisions in society. The Chairman of the Bar Council has asked, "is there not a great risk that those who feel at the margins of society—the somewhat disaffected—will be driven into the arms of extremists?"


Third party abuse #

The requirement that all those registered notify all changes in details risks creating the means of tracking and persecution through improper use of the database. A variety of persons have good reason to conceal their identity and whereabouts; for example: those fleeing domestic abuse; victims of "honour" crimes; witnesses in criminal cases; those at risk of kidnapping; undercover investigators; refugees from oppressive regimes overseas; those pursued by the press; those who may be terrorist targets. The seizure of ID cards (like benefit-books and passports now) will become a means for extortion by gangsters.


Lost identity, becoming an un-person #

By making ordinary life dependent on the reliability of a complex administrative system, the scheme makes myriad small errors potentially catastrophic. There's no hint from the government how it will deal with inevitably large numbers of mis-identifications and errors, or deliberate attacks on or corruption of what would become a critical piece of national infrastructure. A failure in any part of the system at a check might deny a person access to his or her rights or property or to public services, with no immediate solution or redress—"license to live" withdrawn.




***The above post was borrowed the from the site linked below. Well worth a visit even if you've swallowed the zanu-labour line about ID cards (which at least one numpty on here has).

http://www.no2id.net/index.php

[BDiONU]

I carried an ID card for 25 years and never once felt my personal liberties were infringed. I don't think alfie1999 (year of birth?) has taken on board that I've not argued for anything in his long cut n' paste.

BD

[flower]

This card however is not like the military ID card is it, if it were i doubt too many would object. It is the fact that they are going to link so much information into this one document, don't tell me that hackers wont get into the system or that it wont be abused as history tells us it will. This will have our whole history on, yes you can find much of that information in various places but that takes a lot of work, this will be a gift to those intent on abusing the system .
It is also the fact that it will be compulsory for a non compulsory scheme.

[call100]

Whoa! You all seem to be missing something here. The national I.D will not replace the current airport I.D's and will not be required by the security systems at varying airports to grant access..
The main objection should be that you will be forced to accept this useless Government experiment or lose your job. You will be discriminated against and told that you do not have the same rights as the rest of the country.
No other section of the populace will be under such compulsion. No one else will be threatend with dismissal. b
Also remember this is a problem for all Aviation workers.:ugh:

[BDiONU]

The main objection should be that you will be forced to accept this useless Government experiment or lose your job. You will be discriminated against and told that you do not have the same rights as the rest of the country. If you can't get angry about that alone then I pity you.:ugh:
Don't know of many other jobs where you have to obtain security clearance in order to work. Is that discrimination also?
I've yet to see firm plans for what information the National ID card will contain. So far lots of kites being flown by the government to gauge reaction, but nothing concrete yet. I'm not even mildly irritated yet ;)

BD

[call100]

Don't know of many other jobs where you have to obtain security clearance in order to work. Is that discrimination also?
I've yet to see firm plans for what information the National ID card will contain. So far lots of kites being flown by the government to gauge reaction, but nothing concrete yet. I'm not even mildly irritated yet ;)

BD

You feel free to sleepwalk into this. However, by the time no reaction has been given because we were all waiting to see it will all be too late....:ugh:

[WHODOUDO]

Excellent thread!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it not a quote of Hitler that he found Germany 'A NATION ASLEEP'?

If I am wrong, anybody know where this notion came from?

BD, there is NO comparison between an RAF ID card, and the grandiose and dangerous government ideas being mooted at the moment. Head out of sand there boy!




Joke: Two blondes walk into a building...you would have thought that one of them would have noticed!


Hale & Pace

[eastern wiseguy]

If I hadn't done the crime why would I worry?


Ask the Birmingham six ...or the Maguires......:ugh:

[brummbrumm]

Petition the PM at:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/

[BDiONU]

BD, Head out of sand there boy!

Gratuitous insults rarely make me want to listen to someone elses argument Dad.

BD

[BDiONU]

Ask the Birmingham six ...or the Maguires......:ugh:

Should have realised it wouldn't take long to drag out yea olde cases. Of course absolutely nothing has changed in the justice system since those cases :rolleyes:

BD

[eastern wiseguy]

yea olde cases


OK ...Sally Clark then...system really changed to her advantage.

The point remains that there is too much potential for damage with these cards.

The other point as I made to you on the private site is ,what possible use are they in an airport,when the airport security will still need to see a bone fide airport pass?

[BDiONU]

The other point as I made to you on the private site is ,what possible use are they in an airport,when the airport security will still need to see a bone fide airport pass?
You're confusing me with someone trying to defend them. The point I've obviously unsuccessfully been trying to make is that I don't understand the fuss, this 'infringement of my civil liberties' being shouted about. Since the advent of PCs and particularly the internet your data is whizzing around everywhere.

BD

[loubylou]

Technically not going to affect you as yet though is it BD? Only those working at an airport.
Quite how this is going to help security I don't know.
Bit like the questions on the orange sheet that wanted to know who I had lived with in the past 5 years but wasn't interested in who I was currently seeing - which I would've thought was much more relevant. Oh yeah - and the question asking if I'd ever been a terrorist! :ugh:

louby

[BDiONU]

Technically not going to affect you as yet though is it BD? Only those working at an airport.
Whether you work for NSL or NERL you'll still have to have one. Assuming the government get their way, which has yet to be determined.

BD

[loubylou]

I had heard that it was only airport workers who need to go airside who would be required to have one of these ...... at the moment

louby

[joe99]

OK. Major personal experience, warts and all. I was part of a voluntary DNA scheme where we gave blood to further the dna project.

So i'm out one night and see a bloke lying on the grass, moaning and out of it. When I take a closer look the guy's covered in blood. Some madman has a go at me and i fend him off. So I do the decent thing and sort the dude out, recovery position etc. I stay with him until the ambulance arrives (which i called on my own mobile). Then I go home (on the advice of the ambulance crew). I provided my details in full to the crew.

2 daysl ater I'm at work and I get dragged out in front of all my colleagues on suspicion of GBH by 5 officers. I subsequently lose my tax office job a week later. My DNA was found at the scene apparently! There is no record of me leaving my details. The ambulance guys were a little to busy to write it down.

I am held for 24 hours as per the statute and am bullied and refused any legal council, despite my protestations and legal knowledge/rights. This is my word against the Police of course.

ID Cards? I urge you when civil liberties can be easily and readily abused(as i have experienced) we should not make it any easier, no matter the potential benefits. Any form of people listing according to a set of statistics should be refused and opposed.

I would rather see a murderer freed than 10 innocent men hanged.

Don't get me wrong, I want crime cut as much as you. Isn't it better to lock the wrong man up.

[42psi]

A bit dated now but ......

Some years ago on an early shift at LHR.

Two officers enter our ops room and arrest one of my colleagues and haul him away to the LHR police station.

Now I'm sure they probably did say what they were arresting him as they claimed later ... but none of us actually heard it.

He was kept for almost the full day at the station... eventually released when the company actually advised they were assigning someone to legally represent them ... all attempts to find out what was going on, how/where he was etc were rebuffed by the police.

It turns out his problem was ......

Back in those days if you had a convertable car (as he did) rather than display the real car park pass you used a paper substitute that basically said you do have a real pass.

Some days before his had been taken from the windscreen on his MGB in the T1 car park.... the very reason why they were worthless bits of paper instead of real pass.

His big mistake, it turns out, was in not reporting this to the BAA.

Wind on .... as ever there were (and proly still are) problems with theft from cars in those areas.

The boys in blue disturb some of these "n'ere do wells" and while running off they drop something......... which turns out to be the missing "worthless.. I really do have a real pass" bit of paper.

The day after this they walk into our office and arrest him.

After he returned to us he told a tale of having been simply left in a cell all day with no idea of why they were holding him. It was only at the end of the day when they asked him what he was doing on such & such day/time ... when he pointed out that he had been in the same ops office with the rest of us where he had been arrested.

Now I understand things like PACE etc. mean explanations etc are more readily given these days .... but the ability to add 2+2 and make 6 and 7/8ths still exists.

It will always remain possible to connect the "evidence" in an incorrect manner to arrive the incorrect conclusion of evidents.


Over they years since I've been required to make many workplace investigations into incidents/events/accidents and have long since learnt that actual events often turn out to be very different to what might first be indicated by the "evidence".

[radar707]

Petition here for those that haven't signed it and feel like doing so:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/

[call100]

One more added. Thank you:D

[Token Sane Person]

How do you apply for an ID card? "Bonjour. Je suis Monsuir Jo Bloggs. J'arrive en Englais. Je voudrais un carte d' ID. Ici mon Passport Francais." Is a French (or Italian or Polish or Romanian) passport good enough? If not, how does someone prove their identity? If so, then the ID card system is as strong as the most corrupt and incompetent passport office in Europe. Not to mention the possibility that the underpaid spotty youth on work experience behind the counter is on the take.

[bjcc]

All those that work at airports already have data given to a private company. That company then issue an ID card after checks have been done.

Yet, so far as I am aware no one has worried about that company holding the information they do, nor what use they put it too.

All staff at airports are now CTC vetted. Ok, that vetting is a low level one, consisting of a PNC check, and a check with Special Branch and with a group who have a PO Box number as thier address.

Have those records been comprimised? Erm, not that I can recall, with the exception of the odd bent copper in the past. Now, it's far harder to do a false PNC check, and the penelty, ie a stay in one of HM Guest Houses, makes it not worth doing.

On the surface, the scare senarios of what if my DNA is found somewhere there has been an offence may make sense to those who have written them. From the other side of the coin, those scare senarios don't hold very much water. It's easy to assume the events discribed, in reality all DNA does is indicate someone may have been there. It does not alone prove guilt.

Yes, you may get arrested because of it, although, it's not a definate. My DNA, and fingerprints are still on the Police system (because I was a Police Officer, not because I've been nicked!). I have no fears about them being there. Again, so far as I am aware, neither the National Fingerprint Collection, nor the DNA database have been comprimised.

Some people will talk (or not talk) themselves into being charged with things they haven't done, that isn't going to change because of ID cards or a national ID card system.

I've sat the other side of an interview room table, desperatly trying to get an explanation from a suspect, because although the evidence is strong enough to charge him, I don't believe he did it, and been thrawted in that either by solicitors telling thier client to say nothing, or through the suspect lying because he thinks that will get him out of it. Like 99.9% of police, I had no interest in convicting someone who wasn't guilty.

As for ID cards themselves. The assumption is that any organisation can get access to everything on it. They wont. DVLA will not be able to see your National Insurance details, because they don't need it. Nor will your Town Hall be able to look at your medical records. There is already legislation that prevents access to information that there is no need to have.

As someone has already said, with a few details you'd be suprised how much data there is about you already available, and fairly unrestricted. Yes, The NIR will have more, but all that 'more' will be is a central database which holds the information currently available as the result of 8 or 9 checks.

On the subject of 'discrimination' against those that work on airports. Yes, I agree. It's either ID cards for all, or no one.

[WHODOUDO]

BD

Chill out MAN! Great steer with regard to Gattaca an' all. :ok:

Sorry ol' boy...the comparisons between a mil ID and current UK govt proposals are???? Still have'nt heard a decent argument from you or anyone else on this comparison, IMO.

Best wishes, WHODOUDO.


Joke (alledgedy!)...PMT is the favourite part of my month...it is when I can truly be myself!!!

Victoria Wood.

[call100]

bjcc....Its not even so much the present Government (well maybe :suspect:) or laws that we should be wary of. Its what the proposed system can expose us to in the future. Or indeed our children.
Once the box is opened no one will be able to stop the rot.....Because of your position I would not expect you to see it that way...:sad:
Thanks though for the support on discrimination of Airport Airside workers...

[Doctor Cruces]

Definately against a DNA database.

Jurys DO convict on circumstantial evidence. All it takes is an "Expert Witness" and you're banged away for something you didn't do. Let's face it, an expert witness offers an opinion, it is NOT evidence yet we get innocent mothers shut away for killing their children, then some nutter of an expert witness turns up and says the father must have done it because of something the looney expert saw on telly.

Don't make me laugh about the police only arrresting guilty people. They've been caught out fitting people up too often for my liking on that one, and finding one of my hairs in a hire car that was used to transport a body some weeks or months later and then me getting hauled off by our wonderful boys in blue does not appeal, so let's not give them another tool to finger innocent people.

This DNA database should be resisted with every fibre of all our collective being for the above reasons.

Doc C

:ugh:

[11K-AVML]

Yes, you may get arrested because of it, although, it's not a definate. My DNA, and fingerprints are still on the Police system (because I was a Police Officer, not because I've been nicked!). I have no fears about them being there. Again, so far as I am aware, neither the National Fingerprint Collection, nor the DNA database have been comprimised.
Is it not telling that you felt the need to clarify the reason for your data already being on the DNA database; hints at a concern that your existance on that database may imply to some that inappropriate behaviour had occured does it not?


FYI, currently the DNA database contains information on the first few strands of proteins. I'm not sure the precise number without looking it up, but suffice to say it is too expensive and time consuming to automatically record the full DNA strand for each and every person sampled.
What does this mean?
IIRC, -> a DNA sample on the database will match up to 50 people.
-> it is not out of the realm of possibility a suspect in the south of England could have the same DNA profile as someone in Scotland (assuming those 50 people are geographically spread throughout the world).

Although analysis of the full strands of DNA would then have to taken for each suspect, it would still ruin someones reputation (not least because of the general public misunderstanding of what the DNA database actually contains [the assumption that a match = a definitive conclusion).

At least, that is what a detective inspector has informed me before now.



I also agree with the concerns of what will happen to the users of the database in the future. Who knows what the future holds.
I get the impression the current cultivated 'climate of fear' has made some people think that ID cards / N.ID Database will be a temporary measure (e.g. for 40-50 years or so). But that is highly unlikily - once something like this is introduced its nighon impossible to get rid of it regardless of the general population's viewpoint - that's another reason why preventing it in the first place is only safe option.

& yes, before supplying information to people and organisations I do review how they'll use it as well as ticking the optional opt-out boxes (where applicable).

[radar707]

Just got the reply from my mp:

Dear Radar 707

Thank you for your email.

I have read it with interest and I regret to disappoint you but I
support what the Government is proposing on ID cards. I am grateful to
you for letting me know your views and, if I can be of further help, do
please let me know.

Yours sincerely

Bill Olner MP

Sign the petition: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

[WHODOUDO]

The UK driver licensing people cannot even get a SORN declaration correct with regard to one of my vehicles being off the road...I am obliged to provide much info about myself to the authorities, and they want MORE?

They cannot even get some simple admin correct over vehicle issues.

With the amount of info being mooted by the govt they wish to be on record, and with Parliamentary lobbying going on from private companies who stand to make millions with regard to intro of ID card schemes...

I refer to the title of this post...

A ROAD TO HELL.

WHODOUDO

PS would like to post a joke/ditty, as usual, but just not in the mood this evening.:sad:

[1261]

Is it just me or is there something vaguely risible about a group of people angry about having to join a government database freely adding their details to a government website?

[call100]

It's just you...:rolleyes:

[BAND4ALL]

http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf :=

[call100]

No doubt some on here will say that that is ridiculous. However, that is not far off what the Government wants them to develope into..
Great post.:ok:

[pax britanica]

This is a scary prospect in UK

1 Governments who cannot be trusted - thats any likely governement not just this one. Different colour badge same type of person


2 Serial incompetence by Civil Servic and Government agencies on data security both as regards simple loss and more worryingly criminal intent

3 Police forces who are under pressure to meet targets- never mind the guilt feel the collar.

4 Police management? Why suppose they are any different to the type of manager so graphically portrayed in the T5 debacle , ie not real policemem , no interest in rights or wrongs just their career.

5 So all police MPs and senior civil servants can field trial ID cards for 5 years and then we the public can decide by referendum if we want them hows that-seems fair to me and it would give prominant peopel in the country a chance to show leadership too.

[radar707]

Sign the petition

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

Lets make our voices heard

[radar707]

C'mon people, this is an important issue and the lack of signatures on the petition is from my perspective somewhat worrying. Are we going to stand up for ourselvs or just bend over and let the government stick it straight up our ar$es.
Are we going to voice our opinions and object to this wholly inappropriate stealth introduction of this scheme

Sign the petition

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

[radar707]

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

A quote from the thread currently in Jet Blast:

Somehow the FAA got their hand on a list of all the people in California that has been issued a prescription for a list of certain medicines. These are medicines that means pilot should lose their medical. FAA then joined this list with their list of pilots, and tada pulled up some 200 people that appeared on both lists, ie current pilots with current medicals but who had received one of these medicines in the last 5 years.

All received a letter on their doormat asking them to explain.

It's this kind of large scale data mining that can be mega easy once we all have a SSN type number. Just join people who have bought a car worth more than £10K with people who declare annual earnings under £10K, and instantly find possible benefit cheats etc etc.


It isn't just about security and making Britain an illegal immigrant /terrorist free utopia. It's about control and how the government proposes to start exercising this control over its citizens by cleverly forcing a section of its workforce to submit to the forced introduction of this scheme under the guise of bettering the security of our nation, so that afterwards when they say it works the Big Brother will be watching every single one of us.

Sign the petition, forward it to your family and friends, get them to forward it to their friends let's at least put up some sort of fight, apathy will get us nowhere.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

[radar707]

Sign the petition, e-mail it to your friends and family, get them to e-mail it to their friends and family, lets make people aware that this is the start of the slippery slope into the compulsory introduction of this diabolical scheme for every man woman and child in the country.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)

Jim McAusland - General Secretary, British Airline Pilots' Association
"The implication of not being able to work as a pilot without a UK ID is nothing short of coercion. It also raises questions about the many professional non-UK pilots flying for UK airlines who will not be able to secure an ID card.
On a practical level, and from what is known about the plans, this would be an additional requirement to the existing criminal record check, the five-year reference check, the airside pass process, which itself varies from airport to airport, and the inconsistent security regimes practised at check-in at individual airports. The combination of all of these existing checks is already seen by the majority of pilots as unco-ordinated, intrusive and unprofessional,
and has been shown in surveys to be highly stressful and a growing threat to flight safety. The home secretary's proposals offer no improvements in security or any other benefits, as far as we can see."

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/)