View Full Version : Singapore Airlines Recruiting Policy?

14th Feb 2001, 00:34
Heard a story from a friend down in Singapore the other day, that he thinks is probably true. Singapore Airlines interviewed a bunch of Indian Airlines pilots for the 777, sim checked them on type and sent out offer letters for these guys to join the fleet. When they duly pitched up in Singapore “the situation had changed” and SIA told ‘em that there were now only vacancies on the 310 fleet. The Indian drivers then 180’d and returned to IA!
My buddy says that SIA is pretty short of drivers for the 777 but is even more desperate to get fresh fodder onto the 310 so as to release long serving/suffering crews off this airplane on to something better and off the really crap cash and onto the marginally better rates on the bigger machines. The IA guys would have taken a major pay drop on the 310 and a minor one on the 777, but they wanted to notch up on technology.
What I find disturbing is that a major airline like SIA would apparently resort to bare faced lies and deception to get drivers along under the false pretence of joining one fleet and then shove them on another at the last moment. Any truth in all this?

14th Feb 2001, 01:34
Do not be unduly disturbed by anecdotal evidence of the lengths to which SQ will go in their quest to achieve their aims (read cost cut targets) – what you write of is SOP for the present flt ops management and is regarded as the normal cut and thrust of industrial relations. As it happens, I can lend support to your narrative, as I had heard the story first hand a month ago from an ex Air India, SQ colleague, who knows two of the Indian Airlines pilots personally. Such, in fact, is the reputation of SQ on the sub-continent (and indeed world-wide), that the guys wisely refrained from tendering their resignations to IA and merely took extended leave until they were able to judge the situation in SQ land! Smart guys!
You may be interested to note that a similar situation arose 3-4 years ago when a group of South African pilots, all 747 qualified, took extended leave from SAA, to join SQ on either the –300 or –400 fleet, the latter badly in need of a pilot influx. When they arrived in Singapore with families and possessions in tow, they similarly found that “the situation had changed” and they were then obliged to train on the 340 fleet or return to SA, suffering substantial financial penalty. The reason for this? SQ needed to bond and bank guarantee the pilots (S$300,000/S$45,000 – the latter in up front cash to a Singapore bank to provide collateral for the BG!) so that when they quickly realized the mistake they had made in joining SQ, they could not just resign and find another job elsewhere. As it happened SAA financially underwrote the pilots but any early leavers (before five years) would have to come to a settlement with SAA, to refund the settlement required of SAA by SQ.
If your posting is an oblique fishing trip to gauge the advisability of applying to SQ, may I paraphrase GBS in his “advice to those about to …. – don’t”. What happened to the Indian and the South African groups has happened to dozens of individuals in their dealings with the “world’s best airline” and could indeed happen to you. The situation has not changed – SQ is desperate for 310 pilots and will go to any lengths to fill the vacant slots, so, although you may interview for and be offered a fancy type, you may end up consigned to three years or so as a galley slave on this self same fleet – that is unless, of course, you are already 310 qualified, in which case you would never go near the fleet, in an un-bonded state but would guarantee to go (bonded and BG’ed) to a fancier fleet (still on very poor pay). Isn’t life great in Wonderland?
Whilst I am writing on this theme, perhaps those UK pilots considering applying for London basings on the SQ 744 fleet may wish to consider a couple of points:
1. The intention is shortly to advertise these positions in FI using the newly offered pay scales in the ad series. As these scales are currently under Singapore Industrial Arbitration Court binding arbitration proceedings, the outcome of which is far from certain, this move may be considered somewhat ambitious and, indeed, the “situation may have changed” again for any pilot who accepts the Republic’s shilling and arrives to start the indoctrination course at rates somewhat below those expected.
2. The UK Inland Revenue is now fully up to speed on Singapore Airlines (Mauritius) Ltd – the employing company for this particular exercise and will shortly be bringing to bear the full weight of IR investigations on ex BA 744 fleet employees who presently purport to be non-resident UK (Cyprus seems to be the vogue for accommodation addresses) and who top up their BA pensions with the little earners from SQ. Those future ex BA employees who wisely do not attempt this little dodge may care to tot up the tax bill on pension and projected SQ earnings and then weigh the incremental after-tax benefit gained from joining SQ.
Good luck to all aspirants.

sia sniffer
14th Feb 2001, 07:32
A good month for expenses on the SQ A310 at the moment is S$400/month. As any SQ pilot will tell you, its the flying and expenses that make ends meet at the end of the month. Short sectors with no night stops, well, you're down to just your basic.And as we all know, the A310 pays substantially less than other SQ fleets.

Traditionally on the 310,& in SQ generally, rostering will have there wicked way with you, if you dare to request a trip that was deemed to be a "desirable" one. Yes, you may have your request granted, but a couple of months down the road, and they would reep their revenge. Four sectors, four sectors, four sectors, 1 day off, four sectors, two sectors (midnight express) etc. Net gain to you, zero, you will lose money from all the short flying, be very tired, agitated, then be told that the leave you had put in for 9 months ago, to be with your kids when they graduate from high school, has just been taken away, and you'll be on standby for a week.
Thankfully, not my problem now , but wannabe aspirants, be aware, be very aware.

14th Feb 2001, 09:19
SIA sniffer,

Thank you for your enlightening post. Could you please elaborate, "4 sectors, 4 sectors, 4 sectors, 1 day off, 4 sectors, 2 sectors (mightnight express) etc" for those like me not in SQ and also for the new aspirants. Could you please tell about the route too. Thanks in advance.

14th Feb 2001, 15:37
Why do airlines still offer different pay for the same work? Flying the A310 is not easier than the B747-400, and it is propably harder than the B777. Good judgement is needed in all types and should be reflected in the payscale. This should be the primary source of income, and the extra you get for being abroad should cover just that, the extra expense for dining out and so on.
Only then can every pilot bid for the aircraft that suits him best. And the airline will avoid paying for additional type ratings for pilots to move sideways.

14th Feb 2001, 19:17
Typical roster A310

Day 1 4 sectors 3hrs 20
2 2 6 40
3 3 5 00 night stop
4 3 3 45
5 off
6 2 9 30
7 2 6 40
8 off
9/10 2 7 40 all night hrs
11/12 OFF!!!

Keeps you off the street, nearly all in the same time zone, 5 different countries, 4 different MEL's, 6 different F/O's, 60+ cabin crew of all shapes and sizes.
0400 is still when my bones like to be in bed but not too much of that on the A-310

14th Feb 2001, 20:37
SIA's recruiting policy is considered normal in Singapore. In fact it is 'corporate culture', be it employment or purchasing consumer goods.

If you cannot take advantage and exploit the employee/customer, then the employee/customer is not wanted.

In the West (most) they bend over backwards to keep the employee/customer happy, the result is loyalty/more business.

They will figure it out, it might just take 50 years or so.

15th Feb 2001, 03:58
Now you may all start to understand why Singapore proudly calls itself the Lyin City.

Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread

John Barnes
15th Feb 2001, 04:45
Rumour has it that a very great number of expat employees are being briefed by some Cathay pilots how to organise the Cathay sick scheme, which was used last year. It seems that all this industrial battling is very bad for the nerves of the pilots, and that they might need some stress-rest.

15th Feb 2001, 17:32

Thanks for sharing the A310 pilot's typical roster.

Anyone wants to share a typical B747-400 pilot's roster?

Thanks in advance.

15th Feb 2001, 18:26
John Barnes, I think you are fishing!
Don't suppose you work at Airline house, by any chance?!!!!!

15th Feb 2001, 18:56

It's called entrapment, you see John Barnes hopes to get promoted (but realises that he has no useful management talents), so he needs to spill the beans.

16th Feb 2001, 00:30
SINGAPORE (AP) - Singapore Airlines has ordered 10 Boeing 777-200
aircraft and has options to buy 10 more planes in a deal with a
total value of about $4 billion. The planes will replace Singapore
Airline's existing fleet of Airbus A310-300s, the airline said
Wednesday. The airline said the 20 aircraft, to be delivered between
2003 and 2009, will be used mainly on regional routes, but will be
suitable for longer routes if required. As with previous orders, it
expects to finance the purchase largely from its cash flow, but
added that if necessary, the airline "will consider borrowing or
leasing." The airline is phasing out its A310-300 fleet, with 13
still in operation. The last A310 aircraft will be retired from the
operating fleet in 2006. The airline operates 91 aircraft,
comprising 777-200s and -300s, 747-400s, A340-300s and A310-300s.
http://airlinebiz.com/wire/02142001#MAIN (See Full Story!)

*** Continential CEO says "

16th Feb 2001, 02:10
"will consider borrowing or leasing."
I would think that after the dust has settled on Taipai and the insurance companies play their magic, then a more suitable line might be"
"beg, borrow or steal"

John Barnes
16th Feb 2001, 04:53
You said it Lee I spilled the beans, with one little difference, it is no longer a rumour but a mere fact!! Exciting times ahead.

16th Feb 2001, 08:24
Quite some time ago (1980) a B747 was delayed in DXB for about four hours due tech.
When the aircraft landed in ZRH, the crew, having been on duty for over 12 hours, elected to go to hotac, rather than extend their duty period and continue to AMS. Note that this was permitted by company policy, as extension was SCD. When the crew returned to SIN they were summoned to Airline House and summarily terminated. The Captain (expat) was intending to leave to join SV and did so. The F/O found himself in the army three days later as his National Service had been deferred previously due to his employment with SQ. All were reinstated after a VERY long court case (except the Captain, who remained at SV). Considering the rather authoritarian nature of SQ management, it would appear that if those expats at SQ would like to engage in a "CX style" action, they would have a difficult time indeed.

John Barnes
16th Feb 2001, 09:13
411A, we are not talking about 1 captain here. Let's see and wait. Exciting times ahead!

16th Feb 2001, 09:34
I guess my post has stired a real hornets nest here. I had vaguely considered the idea of applying to SIA to see what was on offer but from the responses read so far, I guess I wont bother now. I must say, when I do make currency conversion on the pay rates they offer in the back of Flight (is this the joke section?) I can't believe that anyone works for that kind of garbage pay!
Most of the postings I've read seem pretty sincere but is it really so bad in SIA or am I reading the ire of a few malcontents (I keep seeing the same names making the postings)? I had heard that the Republic was considered totalitarian but if what you say is true, it seems even more of a disincentive to work for SIA and I can't see why anyone bothers being there.

16th Feb 2001, 11:07

Please be assured that just about everything you read on this web site about SQ is absolutely accurate and that despite seeing regular “posters”, what they have to say truly reflects the feelings and intense frustrations of most SQ pilots, at the use and abuse which they are the recipients of, at the hands of the SQ flight ops management.
In particular, you may recall my drawing your attention to the SQ bond/bank guarantee (S$300,000/S$45,000) that keeps us from leaving a company, the management of which we have grown to loath. In addition to this formalised disincentive to the exercise of our right to free movement of labour, which, hitherto, we had all taken for granted, is an “informal” bonding situation provided by the management’s habitual stalling strategy on pay/allowance negotiations. The present Collective Agreement (CA) is now over 2 years overdue for settlement and large amounts of cash are owed to the pilots in back pay. This cash owing is cynically used to discourage movement of labour by dragging out payment to the last moment and is, incidentally, also used to contribute to the cash flow funding of aircraft.
Would you really consider coming to work for such a company?

16th Feb 2001, 12:32
if i may suggest my 2 rupiah worth of thought.Everyone knows how SQ is as an employer, so why not give it a miss and join another airline.Why is there still questions on how SQ is, in recruiting.For those who aspire to join, beware of the job conditions and lifestyle.

19th Feb 2001, 00:46
Perhaps when ALPAS members have finished reading this thread, they may care to check out the "SQ Pilots - Give ALPAS Your View" thread.

Kind regards

19th Feb 2001, 00:59
Perhaps when ALPAS members have finished reading this thread, they may care to check out the "SQ Pilots - Give ALPAS Your View" thread.

Kind regards

24th Feb 2001, 07:29
Any truth in the rumour that SIA is now scouring the Latin American third level carriers for 737/DC9 pilots to turn them into 777 captains?
I'd heard that they had a few takers but that they could not afford to upfront the S$45,000 for the bank guarantee and so could not come along. Could this possibly be the begining of the end for SIA bonding/bg's or am I being wildly optimistic?
Also, does the travelling public know of this potentially serious dilution of experience up in the sharp end of the airplanes?

24th Feb 2001, 17:18
SIA flirted with Russians, then Indians, and now it looks like South Americans. Always looking elsewhere for that utopian pilot, but never realising that the nationality of their pilots isn't the problem, it is their system.
So why is it that the downtown Singapore walk-in interview style of recruitment isn't working? Any takers?

24th Feb 2001, 18:18
Can anybody explain to me the difference between that sort of recruiting policy and the dodgier shipowners who run their vessels under "flags of convenience" to enable them to employ "slave labour" at rates that are attractive relative to the "local" ecomomy but are really exploitation in the real world and to pay lip service only to the international safety requirements.
A recent sea and environmental disaster on our South Coast involved a fairly new ship with a crew with "accepted" qualifications but barely out of school on slave rates.
We occasionally "arrest" ships until the pitiful crew conditions are sorted or until they are paid whatever pittance owing.
What astounds me is the mentality that promotes this sort of behaviour.
For an airline that promotes the idea that they are world leaders you would imagine that they would have a queue down the street and around the corner of highly experienced and qualified crew.

That they do not have is a bit scary. They just don't get it. They have got so many things right except the very thing that will bring them undone.

New York Pilot
24th Feb 2001, 21:03
Perhaps, readers here may also wish to read within the Pprune Far East Forumn "Thoughts from an almost SIA Pilot".

SIA is of the opinion that they can do anything they want and people will still want to fly for them. Somehow, I just do no feel that way!!!

25th Feb 2001, 05:30
NYP, I agree.. and it is across the board from tech crew to the ground handlers. There's this mentality amongst SIA that it is a privilege for you to be working for them and therefore, they can SQrew you anyway they wish.

26th Feb 2001, 05:39
I guess I can confirm a part of the posting that mentions SIA scouring Latin America for likely 777 command material.
My buddy down in Lah Lah Land tells me that the "worlds best airline" recently hired some Brazilian pilots from VASP for the job - it turned out these guys could shell out the S$45,000 for the BG. Only problem was, the english these guys had just about streched to "where is my pay check please"? Not to be daunted, SIA sent them to english school to learn their full lines - desperate or what?
To date, two have left already, to much better pay and treatment, while the rest are still on "the cat sat at the mat", "see john, see jane" and "do the lessons include a meal allowance" stage!
Certainly does sound like the bottom of the barrel is being scraped!!

28th Feb 2001, 05:25
I'm wondering is SQ the only choice out there? After all the insider info still there are "volunteers".Guess fellas are looking for hard labour nowadays.Probably life is too comfortable, hence looking for slave drivers.

28th Feb 2001, 09:55
Ran into a couple of ex Lauder 777 drivers up in Seoul, a short time ago, both working on contract for KAL. The conversation immediately turned to pay/conditions/etc and the gist of the conversation was:

1. They and all their ex-pat colleagues are extremely happy working for KAL as they are treated with great courtesy, respect and consideration at all times by the management. They are both of the opinion that in the past, KAL has got it wrong and guys have just pushed off in disgust and the management has now realised this fundamental error and has taken concrete steps to correct it.
2. The local pilots treat them with the same respect as they have finally realised that use of ex-pat pilots allows for rapid KAL expansion, hence more aircraft and so more “local” commands!
3. Starting salary is, per month, 10,200 USD on the 777, 12,500 on the 744 – S$17,750/S$21,750. 20 days on in Korea/10days off at home. Five star hotel when in Korea or down route. Per dium in Korea and down route. Firm booked first class back home for the 10 days each month. Unlimited ID90’s. Salary amounts are after Korean tax so no problems with the taxman back home if domicile country has a Double Taxation Treaty with Korea – most do.
4. They understand that the 777 may be shortly basing in Oz and the 744 fleet is certainly basing Europe/Oz/Us.

They say check with Rishworth and Euro Pacific as these agents may be giving an even better amount of cash. Also they will be able to give full details of further benefits plus annual/end of contract bonuses/overtime agreements.

bank angle
3rd Mar 2001, 19:05
You can be sure that those South American pilots have bigger houses, better and more cars per family, have traveled to more countries, speak more languages, have prettier girls, have a much wider culture than some of the pilots in Western Europe or Australasia. The standard of living for the medium high or high class in Latin America may surprise many of you.
Also if the Brazilians fly the 777 the same way they drive the F1 cars, they must be very good.

6th Mar 2001, 22:26
Insider107. I echo your sentiments entirely about S.I.A. Do we all expect The I.A.C. on the 12th to rubber stamp the company"s offer?If we do not get our full back pay I personally will go into full uncooperation mode and I hope all the rest will too,but I will not hold my breath!Most pilots are all talk and no action.Would you not agree?

7th Mar 2001, 07:06
The IAC rubber-stamping the so called "agreement" is a forgone conclusion.

Many will leave after the back-pay is settled, may it be the full amount or just 6 months.

The pilots who can do both talk and action are those who have alternative employment lined up or who are no longer bonded.

If flight ops think that crew morale is low now (mdv has said that there is no problem with morale as no flight has been cancelled or delayed, still having enough crew to fly), wait till after SQ ram the "agreement" through IAC.

The idea is to pi$$-off those on a higher pay scale encumbent batch and replace them with new pilots who draws minimum pay to keep the cost down.

7th Mar 2001, 07:30
......my dear friends, let us not hope for anything good on the 12th at IAC. All will get what actually they deserve. ALPA-S the only trade union seen with no capability for any industrial action, so what can be expected out of such outfit. Atleast the people can go on non-cooperation with Flt. Ops. management. I wonder how we drivers are sticking here, I sure even the truckers any where will have better bargaining powers.
But SIA the funny thing is, however, we guys are treated by the company...everybody is still loyal to the company. People still make efforts to every drop of gas to inflate the bottom line of SIA. Is it to get more bonus ha..ha..ha.. what a pity, foder here is not bothered about the basic pay, but the bonus. We all hear that pilots' moral is low in SIA. This should be conveyed to the LG Bay by employees actions. I heard y'day that some Airforce chief is taking over as SVP(Flt Ops)....any truth in that?

7th Mar 2001, 20:06
Seems there is a secret deal going on behind closed doors (naturally!). TKP reckons that we will get the back pay, dressed in different clothing and the Pres + Exec Committee will be made to look the horses a***es they are.
Looks like the days of Exec Comm aspirants to Maurice's stable of brown nosers management fodder are now numbered. EVPT seems to be taking seriously OSIG suggestions that a quick move into management after screwing the ALPAS management really is not ethical!

sia sniffer
7th Mar 2001, 23:27
Back pay to be back payed. You heard it here first! SIA to pay the back pay, even though not required by law.Dancing in the sychophantic streets. How flattering.I dont care as I'm free. We are Legion.

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 07 March 2001).]

7th Mar 2001, 23:29
I hear on the grapevine that Maurice will be spending more time with his family from July 1st! ie being sacked!! Yet another military man rumoured to take over his job. Anyone else heard of this. Will everything be settled on the 12th at IAC or will it drag on??

8th Mar 2001, 06:46
Gypsy I think you heard it right. I had mention in my post that even I heard that some chief of airforce's name has been cleared by the govt. to take over as the new SVP Flt Ops of the company.
Insider107 could be right as the rumor among the cadre is the there is likelyhood of some backdoor settlement about the back pay. Lets keep our finger crossed, hoping to get any money from SIA is like milking the bull with a hope to have a cup of white coffee. Lets see how the coffe is gonna taste.
Hey I heard from some 310 guys that they are being upgraded to 777 fleet 'cos the management has been able to woo some of MAS 737 guys to fly 310 here and they are taking some of the guy even with 737-200, with zero FMS and no glass experience...... what a desperate move. Anyway good luck guys... welcome to the slavery stable. Its better to be here as they keep you than being an alien among the bhumiputras

8th Mar 2001, 11:21
Twitchy,you might be misled on some rumours you heard. ;)

First MAS does not fly the 737-200's since 1992.I believe the outfit that you mentioned is Transmile (737-200) & Air Asia (737-300).Those who left MAS for SQ's A310 would not be locals from the 737-400/500's fleet.

As it is,like you mentioned the pay is not that great for a local 'expat' (Malaysian) with SQ especially with the new MAS pay scale with productivity thrown in.Plus the fact that promotion progression in MAS to the premium widebody fleet is almost assured once you have the criteria.

SQ has got to really wake up & smell the coffee.If their neighbouring competitor airline is offering better pay (in terms of cost of living) even with USD 2 Billion loses,then they will get what they pay. Monkeys for peanuts! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

Better to be amongst the crony Bumi's than living in an insecure & kiasu land! ;)

Safe flying all!

[This message has been edited by PILOST (edited 08 March 2001).]

8th Mar 2001, 16:04
erratum - posting of 7 March

Should have said screwing the ALPAS memebership, not management

10th Mar 2001, 07:02
Pilost, sorry you got me wrong. I never said that SIA has taken MAS locals, however, neither I know nor I mentioned the nationality of the fodder recruited by SIA. But the fact is that there are guys regularly coming from MAS. The 737-200 guys, I did not mention were from MAS. But the fact is that SIA has recruited few guys on 310 with only 737-200 experience. Once again I would say I actually is not aware about their nationality.
Yes I do agree with you that with the current cost living, the current salaries and work culture MAS is any day a better place to work when compare to SIA. Atleast this what has been my experience. I was actually wondering why people leave MAS and come to work for SIA. I do agree with you that only monkey can be bought for peanuts.

Ignition Override
10th Mar 2001, 09:31
Other than flying for Singapore Airlines, what is life like over there? One of our pilots (among numerous others) came from Cathay Pacific and really liked Hong Kong.

Having never gone west of Hickam AFB in Honolulu, is living in Singapore as enjoyable and interesting as in Hong Kong?

12th Mar 2001, 05:23
The new general is Major Gen Raymond Ng and he is understudying M de V before taking over from him on 1 June 2001. M to spend "more time with his family".

15th Mar 2001, 12:32
Now that I've recently looked into SIA, I'm getting a lot of feedback on the airline - usually from extremely disgruntled SIA crews down route. Can anyone confirm:

1. Of the 30 minutes of CVR transcript of the SQ006 accident, only approximately 16 minutes have been published. The other 14 minutes are devoted to the passionate denigration by the flight crew, of SIA in general and the guy in charge of flt ops in particular (de Vaz?). This goes part way to explaining the very cool reception given to the crew on their eventual return to Singapore from Taiwan.

2. Despite SIA flt ops propaganda to the contrary, shortage of flight crews has led to the cancellation of a fair number of flight numbers and 747's, 777's and 340's are regularly to be seen sitting for extended periods on the apron at Changi.

As SIA is having big problems getting crews, the (14?) 777's to be delivered in 2001 are going ex-Boeing straight to the desert. Anyone got photos yet?

16th Mar 2001, 06:49
Like I always says, you can run but you can't hide.

16th Mar 2001, 08:05
As it is, SIA is running out of time to crew its spanking new 777.
With the IAC throwing the boomerang back at SIA, asking them to continue to renegotiate with ALPAS re the long expired CA, the likelihood of attracting new direct entry captains with the "new" package is once again delayed.
Basically, when all the dust is settled on this issue, the person "responsible" on behalf of SIA in "negotiating" the new CA will not be at the helm for much longer, all he cared at this moment in extending his tenure is to collect his own back-pay/bonus on the matter and leave the pile of sh*t to his successor(s), may it be low pilots morale and/or bad management/crew relationship.

Ignition Override
16th Mar 2001, 10:04
And so Singapore is a very nice place to live?

17th Mar 2001, 07:41
Ignition Override. Compared to Where??
Nigeria Yes
South of France No

19th Mar 2001, 19:59
All SIA aircraft CVR's has 2 hours of recording time capacity.
And yes, 777 direct entry captains recruitment is very far behind schedule. Some of the candidates that SQ is entertaining (and training) would not even get a more than a standard reply 3 year ago, this is how desperate SQ has come to be.

22nd Mar 2001, 12:41

Thank you for your post of 16 March on the SQ006 Revisited thread – it has given me confidence to bring up a rumour heard fairly recently and which ties in with an item thrown up in the MISSION section of my previous post on that thread, in respect of SQ OSIG. I’ve used this thread for the post as I think it’s more appropriate than the SQ006 one, which I guess should now be reserved for “006” business.
There has long been a “certain aura” surrounding the status of the Lear Jet fleet supposedly owned and operated by SQ, for the purpose of providing jet training for the airline’s cadet pilots plus others deemed to require the Lear Jet training facilities. This worthy fleet not only provides jet training to the cadet body but also to the ex-SAF pilots of recent and ongoing (reserve) A4, F5 and F16 currency plus experienced Puma, Huey and Chinook rotary pilots plus ex-SAF C130/F27 transport/coastal pilots. Further, “sector” experience is provided to pilots who were posted ex cadet training to the B744 and need to make up the “required” P1 sectors (330) prior to command.
In light of titan’s post, the rumours that have circulated for some time, to the effect that it is not, in fact SQ that operates the Lears but a separate company, owned and controlled by certain interests that contract with SQ to undertake what turns out to be a very considerable amount of very expensive (for SQ) and highly lucrative (for the contracting company) jet training, now seem to gain some substance.

Perhaps it should now be asked:
1. Why are cadets (Singaporean) assigned straight to the 744 where they will attain no real handling and P1 sector experience in their time on the fleet and prior to eligibility for command – hence “requiring” further (Lear) sector training in the future. Cadets (Malaysian) who go straight to the 310 fleet have no difficulty in attaining the P1 sector “requirement”. Why can they not all go to the 310 or to Silk Air – the most wonderful training ground imaginable and following which they would not need Lear training to attain the “required” 330 P1 sectors and would have a terrific experience background for the long haul fleets and for movement to the LHS?
2. Who decides that 330 P1 sectors are “required”?
3. Why do experienced military pilots require to fly the Lear? This happens nowhere else in the world but then again there isn’t a set-up quite like SQ anywhere else in the world!
4. Who signs the contract on behalf of SQ, with the Lear company and is the contract put out to tender with other training companies?
5. Who owns/operates the three Lear 45 aircraft 9V-ATH/I/J?

It would seem that there is a lot of “make work” involved here, a large amount of cash in the equation and a number of answers to be given. Anyone help in this area?

22nd Mar 2001, 19:18
this is an old chestnut and has been under suspician ever since the lear came into sq.
while maurice slashes+burns pilot crew costs(and making bonus's) someone else is lining their pockets with this lear progrm to similar effect.
i believe that one or more of sq's simulators is owned by a group who also are involved in the ownership of the learjet leasing/marketing.
All they had to do was put blokes on the A310 or Silk air....mmmm
how do they justify themselves in view of singapores laws.surely this is insider trading of some sorts and smells of corruption....

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 22 March 2001).]

22nd Mar 2001, 20:21
Corruption indeed. The Lear Jet program is and has been nothing short of a joke. The boys at Lear Jet have been laughing at SIA (never mind, we'll take your money).


[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 22 March 2001).]

23rd Mar 2001, 07:19
The answer to the Lear question can easily be explained by Len's action when pilots started leaving before their bonded period. Len was left high and dry holding the $18,000 cost of their training which SIA capitalised over the bond period. When the pilots left, SIA refused to pay Len for the outstanding amount of their Lear training. Len then had the $18,000 deducted directly from the pilot's first 1.5? years salary - to hell with the contract...pay up or else! One brave Englishman stood up to little Len and won but it was a very nasty excperience. The year was 1994. I believe the automatic deduction occurred to all new recruits after that time.

23rd Mar 2001, 08:59
SQ needs more meat for the grinder.
To all interested in "suffering" pls apply.
But don't say we didn't warn you..

27th Mar 2001, 08:34
I’d like to write on the subject of bonds/bank guarantees (BG’s) which perhaps non-SQ readers may be a little confused about.
As everyone knows, SQ requires an enormous bond to be signed plus the provision of a large BG before the company will entertain the training of a newly joined non-rated pilot onto a type operated by the airline, or the fleet movement of an established SQ pilot onto a new type. Amounts are typically S$350,000/S$45,000. The two key questions, which outsiders will ask, are:
1. Why do pilots sign the bond/provide BG’s?
2. Why does SQ require bonds/BG’s?

Well I can only answer the first question from my own perspective but I can certainly give both my own plus a more collective view on the second question.

My feeling during the recruiting stage of my entry to SQ was that I would be joining a world class carrier with the highest professional standards and a modern, not to say cutting edge approach to “human resource/man management”, entirely consistent with the highly glossy image of the self proclaimed world’s most successful, efficient carrier etc, etc. Whilst the money at the time was not brilliant (something of an understatement when I eventually found out the cost of establishing in Singapore!), the overall prospect seemed reasonable enough.
My attitude towards the bond/BG was that, OK, I’d be joining an Asian company and a culture that expected a demonstration of an individual’s commitment and worth that provision of bond/BG would effect and that in return for this very significant gesture, I would be treated with the respect accorded a valued professional and could rely on the loyalty and support of a company that would reasonably expect the same approach from its pilots. My experience to date, has, of course, disabused me of any such nonsensical romanticism as I find myself in a brute of an organization that I have grown to absolutely loath and which treats me with the contempt and derision accorded the salve/bondsman who has been tricked into entering his sorry state through his own lack of foresight. By then it was too late, I was financially committed and had to stay. Simply put, if I had known the treatment I could expect, I WOULD NEVER HAVE JOINED. So all pilots mistakenly considering a “career” with SQ, please reconsider because you will merely follow the rest of us, to be USED, ABUSED, CHEWED UP AND SPAT OUT. There are plenty more employment opportunities around (if you fancy Asia, KAL is now excellent), managed by decent regimes which give a fair crack to their employees and keep their troops happy - this one does not!

On the second question, well the answer is corollary to my first answer. Obviously SQ has to bond/BG pilots, otherwise they would lose them in their first year of operation as these pilots steadily became more sickened by their own treatment at the hands of the “management” and became increasingly exposed to the corruption and incompetence of their so called “leaders”. An aspirant has merely to ask himself again (sorry - no girls here) the second question, above. Well, once any such fanciful feeling as I once entertained is firmly discounted, the answer is obvious - THE AIRLINE IS SO AWFUL, IT’S THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP PILOTS. Aspirants are warned.

Finally, it may interest everyone to note that the airline is now in such a panic to make internal fleet movements of pilots due to intense agitation for movement from the A310 fleet, the wind-down of the A340 fleet, the imminent arrival of a plethora of new B777’s (if they don’t go straight to the desert) and the dearth of new entrant pilot arrivals onto the B744, that all eligible SQ pilots are now being offered the ultimate promotion (in SQ eyes) of the 744, to effect trouble free fleet movement. Pilots are urged to remember that the dearth of new entrants to this fleet is due the correct worldwide perception of SQ as a very poor pay option for work on this type and they are further reminded of the “dog’s life” the fleet offers in terms of desperately high work load, limited leave, very poor COP’s and whatever it is that flavours a fleet culture predominated by “difficult” local captains. Please don’t, however, take my word for how bad things are on the 744 - merely note the droves of local FO’s who regularly turn down the “honour” of “promotion” and elect to remain on or move to fleets with a predominance of ex-pat captains - strange isn’t it?

As a PS. I wonder what will happen to the desperate fleet movement program if pilots politely declined to re-bond and forego the honour of “promotion”?

sia sniffer
27th Mar 2001, 16:31
An earlier question was asking why on earth dont the spotty new Singaporean second officers join Silk Air for a couple of years? The answer is simple : Dolla.

When Singapore Airlines advertises for its new cadet pilots, its offers the wannabes the temptation of around $8000+ per month, as part of the overall package. However, to earn this sort of money, you cant go off to Silk Air, and dilly dally with flying sectors every day. No lah, cannot. The new Singaporean cadet is sent straight to the B747-400, where pay is biggest for the biggest job, argh. The most meritorious of all SIAs fleets is branded the “Premier Fleet” by SIA’s DFO.

The question then, who crews the remainder of SIA’other aircraft? Well, if you aint part of the Singaporean master race, you’ll more than likely have to do the brunt of the flying for the runt of the pay. Yes, Malaysians and other “foreigners” generally start on the A310, and progress to the A340/B777, as part of the overall meretricious racially biased promotion scheme.

Oh, but promotion based on meritocracy surly has is place, I hear you all mutter. Yes, but dont forget, we are dealing with SIA here. By default, a Singaporean is deemed more “meritorious” by the fact that he was born err, a Singaporean. The rest of the less “meritorious” pilots are left to play for the few remaining scraps of promotion that are thrown their way. How many Malaysians are still stuck on the A340/B777 after several years? And what of the unfortunate Singaporeans that dont make the premier fleet? Well dont worry lah say your fleet managers ,you’ll bypass all those ahead of you in seniority after a couple of years on the lower fleets, well make sure of that.How? Well make sure our SIP & IP’s keep there opinions (and grades) very subjective towards none Singaporean, no worries lah.

And so why do aspirants continue to join? Well I think Insider 107 hit the nail on the head. Potential employees believe that it just cant be this bad, that the info avaliable on pprune (and there's been lots of it over the last 5 years, asll bad!) is from a disgruntled few. Well, there’s more than a few now, we’re the ever increasing voice of dissent against the facade of SIA’s employer relations. Problem is, after leaving your moderately paid charter job, for an equally “make ends meet” salary (by Singapore standards) its hard for most guys to leave. Where to go? Korean, well ok if you have the 747, but most SIA recruits are from narrow body jets, and go to the B777., sign away nearly 6 years, and become increasingly frustrated.

Like a Vindaloo curry on a Saturday night, you think you can handle it after ten pints, but eventually it will make you puke your guts up, big time!

Landing Lights
27th Mar 2001, 18:41
Only just seen the postings by Insider107, Gladiator and Mark86uk who all appear to be running on fumes and few facts. They need to check their 'reality levels!'

Fact - SQ have four Learjet which are listed in their Annual Reports as owned. They are not on the SQ AOC as they are not used for hire & reward.

Fact - the Learjets are owned by SQ and no contracting comapny is involved

Fact - SQ held a competition between Learjet and Beech which both fought hard to win

Fact - SQ are not alone in the use of corporate jets. Read Flight International 6-12 March Page 26. Now CX are about to embark on the same programme. LH have been using hi-performance Cheyannes for 10 years for their ab initio crews/cadets

Fact - the last time I checked military crews we often trained for single crew ops(A4, F16) NOT multi-crew ops so they may well need to be trained again. The C130 is a three crew machine so the Engineer is someone the line pilot will not see these days unless he is on Classics and the Rotary Guys have on manage with one less control stick! Remember that not all ex-ilitary Jocks make airline pilots - even an ex-Red Arrows Team Leader found the transition too hard!

Fact - It is not the SAF it is the Republic of Singapore Air Force!

Come on Guys wake up, smell the Starbucks. deal in facts not fiction....

Happy days

27th Mar 2001, 20:40
Landing Lights,

Fact - SQ have four Learjet which are listed in their Annual Reports as owned. They are not on the SQ AOC as they are not used for hire & reward.

We never said the Lear Jets were for hire or reward. So what is your point?

Fact - the Learjets are owned by SQ and no contracting comapny is involved

What do you know about the internal workings of accounting and corruption?

Fact - SQ held a competition between Learjet and Beech which both fought hard to win

What is your point?

Fact - SQ are not alone in the use of corporate jets. Read Flight International 6-12 March Page 26. Now CX are about to embark on the same programme. LH have been using hi-performance Cheyannes for 10 years for their ab initio crews/cadets.

Ab-initio crews/cadets doing what? SQ tried selling the program to CX.

Fact - the last time I checked military crews we often trained for single crew ops(A4, F16) NOT multi-crew ops so they may well need to be trained again. The C130 is a three crew machine so the Engineer is someone the line pilot will not see these days unless he is on Classics and the Rotary Guys have on manage with one less control stick! Remember that not all ex-ilitary Jocks make airline pilots - even an ex-Red Arrows Team Leader found the transition too hard!

What is your point here?

Fact - It is not the SAF it is the Republic of Singapore Air Force!

OK it is not SAF, I will refer to it as Leepublic of Singapore Air Force, only if RSAF people stop calling the United States Air Force, "YUSAAF" (for USAF) during the air shows.

27th Mar 2001, 21:37
After reading all this, my intentions to SIA have, well, have been unchanged. I think I might pay SIA a visit here in the US.

However guess what I've just found in Flight International 27 March - 2 April 2001


Requirements blah blah blah

The current annual salary including allowances and year-end bonus) is approx AUD 168,000. In addition subsistence allowance will be paid for each hour away from BASE (for meals and incidental expenses whilst flying on duty) and a bonus depending onthe compny's performance (** now that sounds good**)

If type qualified a gratuity of AUD 55000 is payable upon completion of the contract period of 3 years with prospects for extension

If given conversion traing, a gratuity of AUD 92500 is payable upon completion of the contract perios of 5 years with prospects for extension.

Free air travel on SIA servvices for employee, spouse and eligible dependents once a year. Discounted on other occastions. Free private medical insurane)

Yea yea yea

SIA Mauritius LRd
General Manager Mauritius
5 Duke of Edinburgh Avenue
Port Louis

yea yea

[email protected]


Now what do you think of that!!!??

I am a bit confused

[This message has been edited by TheComparer (edited 27 March 2001).]

27th Mar 2001, 23:00
gladiator old chap...

well..again you have seemed to get your knickers in a twist and have responded to landing lights last posting with the usual jerry-mandering evasiveness that we have become accustomed to from your kindself. getting to/answering to the point may certainly not be your forte but at least your are consistent in your treatment of views that are divergent from your own.

your last comment (in refrence to LL's item 4)clearly shows a very weak mentality of discourse based on the most regressive of traits. wow! "Leepublic of Singapore Air Force"...how absolutely hilarious!!! This coming from the very same person who embellished his legal wranglings with SIA in the name of accuracy and correctness of definition!!

LL point 1 and point 2: IMHO perhaps to reinforce the belief that the L45 are actually owned by SIA and not a (maybe outside) private company and then leased in.

LL point 3: to indicate that the eventual contracts were held in open competition and above board. after all, any SIA shareholder may query the entire purchasae of these aeroplanes

LL point 4: to illustrate the use of high performance, multicrew aircraft for ab-initio or post CPL standard training is neither unique to SIA nor a relatively new development in civil aviation training. (by the way...QF had some HS125s for this same purpose..anyone have any idea what happened to them??)

good flying n cold beers to all!

28th Mar 2001, 01:15
The ad in Flight for 777 pilots based in Perth or Brisbane doesn't mention anything about the right to live and work in Oz. Is it safe to assume that these priviliges are required to be accepted by SQ for these bases, or is there another way that hasn't yet hit me between the eyes?

28th Mar 2001, 05:50
Just heard that we seem to be set for SIA terminating the company Provident Fund provided for ex-pat pilots who joined after CPF was abandoned by SIA for this group some time ago. The reported intention is to pay out the fund to the members and so rid the company of its present monthly obligation to make contributions (yet again saving a slug of money at our expense with zero consultation), as the company is “unable to attain any growth from the fund”. This inability to attain growth seems very strange for an airline that normally never seems to have any difficulty attaining this now elusive property. Maybe it doesn’t mind extending its self on its own behalf but can’t really be bothered on behalf of its ex-pat pilots. Or am I being too simplistic?
If this actually happens (and it did to the last lot of Indians who joined and who were tipped off by their mates so that SIA had to correct the “error” of not including the PF in the package), I personally will take a pay cut of just over S$1000 per month which will probably negate any increase (if indeed there is an increase!) in my monthly salary post the IAC hearing on 11 April and yet again my contract will have been unilaterally altered in a fundamental way (last alteration was the imposed loss of the 6% per annum pay increment on which, amongst other things including the PF, I made a decision to come to SIA). Jeez, it just goes from bad to worse!!!
Any truth in all this???

28th Mar 2001, 21:23
cheersnbeers you are entitled to your opinion. Funny how SIA distances itself from the Lear Jets whenever there is a f*** up (oh, it is a seperate entitiy).

That reminds me of your foolish boss that forgot the two dead pilots during a SilkAir speech (SIA has never had a fatality).

My opinion is that sectors gained in a Lear Jet in order to qualify for command is stupid to say the least.

You almost sound like Lenny himself. Is that you Lenny? Strong statement regarding Singapore Airlines vs. Gladiator.

If you have information that is different to mine why not let it out. Come out and let everyone know how much Gladiator cost SIA.

If it is you Lenny, or otherwise he most propably will be reading this anyway, be a man. Let everyone see SIA's financial outcome of Singapore Airlines vs. Gladiator (specially money out vs. money in).

I have some advice for you old man, you spend too much time and effort in the wrong areas. Instead of chasing your former employees for money, or details of laundry bills during CRM courses, spend more time improving safety at SIA.

Also, I want to bring to your attention two more points, first you smoke too much for a pilot, second, consuming alcohol at work place is behavior unbecoming an airline manager. Act your position, that is if you are going to be keeping it.

29th Mar 2001, 04:57
Gladiator, about the Learjet thing. Cathay are getting some to play around with too.

29th Mar 2001, 06:20
Cathay sent one of their captains (Gus) to evaluate the Lear program in Dec 1994. That is over 6.5 years ago.

Yes, smaller aircraft are not new to airline training operations, being a Piper Aztec or HS125. Burning Jet A for the sake of logging a sector is stupid.

A sector can be obtained on line, only if the Commander is not stingy with the sectors. I take 5, you get 1, or you did not stick to the kiss a** protocal so you do not get any.

So Cathay is going to toy with smaller aircraft, still stupid if it is for the sake of sectors.

29th Mar 2001, 06:58
Well guys I had a nice holidays for 3 weeks. SQ was kid enough to accomodate my request for holidays this time. After 3 weeks I noticed a lot has been discussed about SQ which I am trying to updated myself.
Tosh26 you are right about the PF in SIA. I heard from my friend that SIA had cheated some of the guys on CPF and did not mention in the contract. Later on these pilots were running from pillor to post. Ultimately they were told by the SIA management "we are sorry there was a mistake and you all will be getting your PF from now on." What a cheap tectics on part of the SQ to save few hundred dollers per pilot. I also heard that the new recruits will not be paid the gratuity.

TheComparer I don't know how you are talking about gratuity for SIA MAURITIUS, the pilots recruited by SIA here in Singapore do not get any gratuity these days, atleaset their contract does not say so.

Hey guys any update on the negotions going on between the ALPA-S and SIA as directed by the IAC

29th Mar 2001, 07:25
The Lear business .........

When Lenny picked up the first Lear he ran it off the runway in Witchita while lining up for takeoff - really impressive. I flew with Lenny I can assure all that his flying skills are sub standard.

That the four Lear45s seem to be now owned by SIA has no bearing on who actually owned the Lear31s when it all started.

That Lenny doesnt own the present L45s doesn't mean he doesnt get his cut by owning the training school in either Singapore or Australia.

What did Lear offer the "boys" to take the Lear that Beech wouldn't match. Grow up everyone, this is the real world and this is how business aviation is conducted i.e. do you really think Greg Norman bought the BBJ?

The "not for hire or reward" is not for want of trying. Lenny walked over burning coals to try and get Vietnam Airlines to enter his Lear School. VA fortunately had a look at the aircraft's pathetic sub 50% despatch reliability and graciously declined.

The 1300 sector requirement is a fluid ethereal thing that the CAAS changes depending on the whims of SIA. Now is anybody on the take in the CAAS? Worth a thought.

Who owns the $25 million Lear simulator? Why even have it when you can get a B744 for about the same price? Why bother with the real plane when they have fully certified simulators? So many questions and no satisfactory answer until the Lenny factor is added in.

Lenny - Be warned. I am subpoenering you on to the stand and I shall expose you for all to see!!

29th Mar 2001, 14:40
Twitchy, the latest news on the CA is not good. When Alpa-S and SIA Management met, SIA decided to change a few things for the worst. You'd normally expect a slightly better offer or the original offer better packaged, but SIA is not normal and it seems their strategy is " everytime you reject my offer I will return with less." I suppose it comes as no real surprise but everyone was hoping that a little common sense or integrity may prevail. I would have thought the Airline would have done all possible to resolve the CA quickly to ease the present severe crew shortage and attempt to crew the new aircraft arrivals, but they are playing the same tune, yes we may make close to $2 billion profit this year but we have to be frugal because of a possible downturn in the economy next year. I agree be economically sensible but we all took a pay cut over 2 years ago and are yet to return to our 1998 pay and that after declaring billion dollar profits both years on. Before anyone says then leave well there is the major problem of a bond.

I never thought people could be so unethical, untrustworthy, arrogant, and distasteful but SIA has confidently proved otherwise.

29th Mar 2001, 19:31
If anything goes wrong SIA always distance themselves from the occurence. When their Learjet was lost in Thailand it was not SIA's but one that was owned by a "wholly independant subsidary of SIA", that is, it was owned by Singapore Flying College.

29th Mar 2001, 19:54
Just to quote some self explanatory lines from the latest newsletter.

"The principal changes, as compared to the package that was voted out, are:

1. The exclusion of Second Officers and Pilots on Expatriate terms
2. The sole discretion of the Company to pay First Officers and Captains a salary other than at the starting of a salary range
3. That the Company has the right to optimise COPs to the limit of AOC
4. There is no mention of wage adjustments for incumbents
5. There is no mention of back pay.

EXPATRIATION ALLOWANCE - to be deleted from CA


HOUSE RENTAL ASSISTANCE - to be deleted from CA"

Food for thought!

[This message has been edited by runer (edited 29 March 2001).]

29th Mar 2001, 20:14
SIA in fact tried to sell other programs to Cathay. In late 1994 Cathay sent half a dozen cadets to SIA for B747-400 training. Captain Gus Lullard of Cathay was evaluating the Lear program. Those cadets left after a short period of time.

It was obvious that the program was bull pucky. Was Lenny the loser having a few beers with the Cathay management boys, (hey, look what I have done, you can do it too).

Sorry you are getting shafted at SIA boys. It is only going to get worst. Get out while you can. Remember, in the Leepublic if they can not exploit you, they do not want you.

30th Mar 2001, 05:02

Re: your post of 29 March. I’ve heard the same stuff. Can anyone explain to me in really simple terms how SIA will be able to crew the 14 x 777’s that I understand will be arriving in the next 9 months, if they show the world pilot pool their true mentality in their approach to pay and conditions negotiation as demonstrated by the latest convolutions in the present CA wrangle?

Landing Lights
30th Mar 2001, 11:38
Gladiator, are you a failed training or management pilot? With the approach and temperment I seriously wonder if you should any where near a cockpit. I know free speach is allowed and merited but 'free' to talk fact, not fiction.

Try dealing in fact and stop behaving like a UK tabloid paper - short on fact and embelishing fanasy, feeding on your own insecurity.

The lear 31 were part of SQ all along - check if you wish. Now the Thais are 'going jet' and have leased a Beech 400A which you migh see in BKK from time to time. Iits owned/leased by the HuaHin school I am told. TG were not directly involved in the choice but the former DFO is now Chairman of the school.

With CX(Lear 45) and TG(B400) your short sighted lame snipping 'form the sidelines' makes SQ's pioneering move ten yrs ago seem what it was - trend setting. Their possible fault being first or early. Watch out there will be more going this way.

You also need top know that the lears are not merely for sectors. If you want to find out find out. I knwo but lets see how much fact you can find on your own.

As for the sim. You dont know what sims cost either nor a 744 either come to that. The sim costs about 12-14m. A 744 well try again to find out if your management skills are so good and you have the inside track.

Selling the idea of jet training is not new. LH have been doing it for years with the Piper Cheyanne. If SQ or infuture CX try to sell their skills then it makes financial sense to the airline. So did North Carolina University seeling jet courses to CI.

FYI CX did a more recnt evaluation than 6 years ago. Again you are short of fact.

Reality Check time Gladiator.... No Oscars for you in this lifetime!

Starbucks time again my friend.....

30th Mar 2001, 13:32
Landing lights!!!! obviously not on when you posted the above.

The L-31s and now the L-45 are NOT operated by SIA. They are operated by Singapore Flying College, for SIA on a very big contract. They are crewed by employees of the College who are absolutely NOT employed by SIA. Their contracts are with SFC, terms are poles different in all areas, including staff ID Nos.

They are operated on SQ flt numbers, the pilots wear SIA uniforms which is necessary to facilitated CIQ at all the first landings ex SIN. The original intention was to wear the College blazer, but the difficulties of that were realised in time.

As to what was the first accident to an SIA aircraft, as the Lear was on an SQ flt number you can all make your own judgement, as was the Silk Air Accident also not SEEN as part of SIA in the same sense.

It's a little bit like the post mix at Big Mac, you can have many flavours of drink, all delivered by the same truck, paid for by the same cheque, but seen to be all different.

The Smoke and Mirrors are on show again.

You should not knock the Gladiators/Titans of this world, be they from a particular point of view, as it is only by being in SIA and "Walking the Walk" can you stand with them. You are a long way from that.

Sui Generis.

30th Mar 2001, 23:28
Landing lights!!!! obviously not on.

31st Mar 2001, 02:59
Landing Lights:
- post number 2 yet obviously a well posted writer
- "SQ's pioneering move ten yrs ago seem what it was - trend setting"
- "If you want to find out find out"

I mean really, KaptinM, you should try being a bit more original. Now be a good little boy and go off and do your homework. If I catch you cheating, plagiarising, and not doing any study again then I will have to stop giving you little stars and elephant stamps.

Teacher Titan

1st Apr 2001, 09:33
EasygoLucky and Runer thanks a lot for the latest info on the negotiations between ALPA-S and the MdeV. What do you think SIA is heading for. It seems the company is totally blind to the happenings in the world about the "human resource". I don't think this place has any proper labour laws at all. If so least the ALPA-s can do is to sue the company for "bad faith bargaining". So let us keep our fingers crossed and wait for the 11th April. I think we should get what ever money we get out of it and then quit. Actually we only are to be blamed 'cos we should have thought about this a long ago. Don't be afraid my local friends, the world is quite a big place with many more good Airlines and better job with better work culture. There are many places which are far superior to live than this "Lee-public of Singapore". I can understand the initial hesitation but try out you won't be a loser at all. Wish you all the good tailwinds always........

1st Apr 2001, 23:14
Lee-public of Sting-apore.

Landing Lights
2nd Apr 2001, 06:16
Again lacking accurate information is often the reason you get all of a tizz! For a profession that uses check lists, why not check the facts!

Fact - the Lears (31 and now the 45's)are 'owned' by SQ while the crews or instructors employed by the College. Gladiator suggested that there was some kind of 'monkey business' in the ownership/contract. Never said or queried who 'employed' the instructors/crews.

Check the plaque near the door, of any aircraft when you next board again so before you think this is something strange, get the facts right.

What should actually be under scrutiny is the whole subject of airline training. The SQ Lears & those associated to them are the object of your hate or dislike of Singapore so dont get the two mixed up & keep emotions out of it. Snipping is only a sign of immaturity and a failed argument. If your gripe is with Singapore then get out go back to where you were whether it was flying Sheds out of GLA or 340's (Saab's kinda 340) out of DBO! Oh sorry I forgot there are no Maids and the wife may have to work!Better stay in SIN!

It is training that needs a radical overhaul throughout the industry and the supply chain is not producing the numbers in the keeping with the orders for aoircraft. This is a problem in Asia, ME and now Europe and the US have woken up to the fact.

Debate the issue, not the emotion.

Landing Lights 'on' and burning bright, showing the way not looking back at 'old mind sets'. Save the Gripe water for something else!


2nd Apr 2001, 08:20
Just a side note,
Isn't Lenny supposed to be retiring any time now? Won't that mean someone else will be taking over his duties and matters?

2nd Apr 2001, 09:20
Probably will be another General, maybe the catering core has one to spare. Sorry, my frustrations with this dam Company are clouding fruitful thought.

Len will go without any tears shed and no doubt he'll be leaving with a suitcase full of money from the Company. I heard he may be venturing south to Godz Own, like most Management Pilots, where he will not be welcomed with open arms.

sia sniffer
2nd Apr 2001, 10:41
Some of the protagonists of "Asian Values" and Singaporean institutionalism are often the very same people, when it suits them, are seen to be relocating to greener pastures, ie the western world.

These very same people spend their entire existence in SIA supporting the system that panders to the sycophants, while encouraging disparaging remarks about westerners, their culture and society.

To have a none complimentary opinion about any aspect of Singaporean life, will be taken as an insult. However, the very same individual will then make some ridiculous remark about western culture, and expect agreement.Again, contrary opinion would be deemed insolence by a lower rank expat. Basically, as an F/O in SQ, you're constantly on egg shells, least you unwittingly are seen to be undermining the captains authority, as they would call it.Pathetic.

Its no surprise that Lenny will be heading down to spend time on the beach in Sydney (or is it Melbourne,Perth or all).Most management own property in Australia, the UK and even Europe.I once did a sim session with a local Indian Instructor Pilot(not BS). A self confessed disliker of expats in general,he made several comments to his local buddy during the coffee break. He was outraged at the fact that he would no longer be able to send his daughter to a UK University for free. She had spent three years at private school there, and should have qualified for the state handouts. However, those nasty European eurocrats, had interfered with immigration policy, and consequently there would be no gravy train for foreign students. The guy was shouting and screaming about this as he believed it to be his god given right. Wrong, you're just a insular Singaporean, thats all.

Oh, and the coffee break etiquette? At half time during a sim session, a tea break is taken in a room near the sim. The junior guy on the check is expected to rush ahead of the instructor pilot to deposit a few cents in a tin (provided especially) to pay for everyones coffee. But dont get too far ahead of your instructor, as he might not see you actually putting the money in the tin, and therefore would think you were taking a liberty with him by not contributing. He would then take a very biased view when it came to the marks out of ten section on your report. For new inmates at Colditz sq, best remember to take plenty of change on your sim "training". I used to just simply rustle the retched tin.

2nd Apr 2001, 16:28
Sniffer, I have to agree with you on how ironic it is that many of those that detested the Australians in SIA, are now Australian PRs and actually reside there. How they will be able to amalgamate into a culture and country that they hate is beyond me. With SIA now basing there I can just imagine the flood of PR applications into the Aus High Comm in Singapore right now. Wether SIA would actually allow any of its locals to base in Aus will no doubt come down to dollars and cents. I'm sure if SIA could figure out a way to base us all in Calcutta then they would.

PS. The Indian wasn't that horrible little man from ADL was it?

[This message has been edited by EasyGo-Lucky? (edited 02 April 2001).]

2nd Apr 2001, 19:38
FYI I never had a maid in Singapore and the wife did not and does not work.

My standard of living is 5 times higher than while in Singapore. Ah, how can?

I live in a better house for less money, my children go to a school where they do not have to urinate in their clothing (unlike in Singapore), a Honda civic does not cost $100,000, I am happy with my employer (you will never fathom such a concept in your life time), I have real days off, real staff travel, etc, etc, etc.

Do not even start to compare. If you think expats come to Singapore for a better life, you have been brain washed under 'Lee con you' and 'Goh talk kock'. Unless you are coming from India, Pakistan, Sri Lanks and all the other pis* poor countries. In which case exploitation is normal and you would not know any better.

3rd Apr 2001, 09:39
I agree with you toatally that the expat pilots who come to Singapore, live in better houses, have better cars, better education for kids in their own countries. I don't know about the employer/employee relations in those countries so no comments.
I would not be an agreement with you on your misconception about the expats from Pakistan, India and Srilanka.

I don't think you would have ever known the pilots who live in these countries. Here in Singapore I have known few colleages from these countries and have been socialising with them once in a while. I think these people definitely have better moral values. Back home they have bigger and better houses, better cars with drivers, many maids to work for them and of course better education for their kids, salary compared with any international airline, better savings, when compare to Singapore. I think your perception of these people must be based on the people who have migrated to your country legally or illegally. Each one of them had excelled in their profession there. What I came to know from these guys is that they left because of the poor work culture back home. After coming here realised that they have come from frying pan to fire and can not leave now. I hope this should clear your mind now.



3rd Apr 2001, 10:57
I am in agreement with you twitchy. I probably did not use the correct words. I too have very good friends from the mentioned countries. Sorry if I came across wrong.

7th Apr 2001, 17:31
Perhaps I can continue the post I made on 27 March, when I brought up the subject of the SQ bond/bank guarantee system. I’d like to quote “tilii” who is currently posting very thoughtful pieces on “The paying back of outstanding bond money, advice please” thread, on this web site. I feel sure that “tilii” will not mind me using his/her erudite thoughts, which I think express our collective feelings very accurately.
“Surely, in most instances the company is looking for pilots to fly its equipment just as much as we pilots might be looking to fly for the company. It is certainly a mutual benefit thing and not "us and them".
This is precisely why the bonding matter is so offensive to most of us. Irrespective of the odd selfish user among us (and I do acknowledge their existence as much as I assert the existence of their employer equivalent), bonding creates from the outset an environment of mistrust and bonding airlines speak to us from a position of collective power (no sign, no job).
Others have pointed to the fact that pilots are, in many ways, their own worst enemies in that some will sign anything to advance their careers. It is this sad fact that has permitted the system to flourish, but it can soon be reversed if there was a collective will among enough of us to tell those who push the papers across the interview desk to go to hell.
For a group of supposedly intelligent and committed individuals (and individuals is perhaps the key element here) we do show selfish and mule-like tendencies at times.
The sooner we all (old and young, senior jockeys and wannabes) wake up to the undeniable fact that the airlines cannot operate their expensive machines without the licensed pilots up front, the sooner we can return to our former glory days when the PROFESSION of airline pilot was highly respected and we were envied among our peers.
The way things stand at present, I respectfully suggest that we are little short of a laughing stock among those who have the world at their feet and are deciding where to invest for their futures. Very few talented youngsters these days will spend more than a moment or two looking at the so-called profession of airline pilot. Who can blame them?”

I really could not have put it better myself and congratulate “tilii” on his/her powers of expression.

SQ readers are asked to note “tilii’s” third paragraph. Are we now not in such a position to tell SQ to go to hell and that, yes, we will fly their aircraft that they are so desperate to crew but forget about a bond/bg? What will SQ do if pilots politely decline to move from their present fleet? How will they crew the 744 when pilots shortly retire or leave with their back pay/bonus to KAL? How will they crew the 14 777’s due to arrive this year when experienced pilots similarly move to KAL – 2 aircraft supposedly arrived in Singapore last month but I don’t notice them on the Changi apron and I didn’t notice any great splash in the Straits Times – I guess the paper doesn’t cover too much Arizona/New Mexico desert news.

Singapore Airlines only relies on the con jobs it has propagated over the years – if pilots are conned and tell themselves they will be bonded, they will be. Now is the time to break the cycle – tell yourself that you will not be bonded – what’s going to happen – another threat to close the airline down? I don’t think that that kind of petulance would now cut much ice with a world community moved on 20 years!

Think about it guys and don’t rush into things like the bunch of lemmings they contemptuously think we are!

7th Apr 2001, 19:30
As far as I know, SQ only took 1 new 777 this March, 9V-SRF.
It has now become inevitable that SQ has to park some of its BRAND NEW US$150M 777 in the desert.
I believe that initially the new 777 will come to wsss until it becomes impossible to crew them(very very soon) then, desert they go.
I hope this will not happen, as an aviator, I hate to see things that were built for flying lying idle. But then again, how else can anyone get the idea of treating the pilots better into that thick skull of mdv ?
I wonder what will happen if some of us go out and buy some SQ's share, come annual shareholders' meeting, get hold of the mike and post some questions to the "esteemed" management team? Very interesting indeed !

8th Apr 2001, 07:53
Landing Lights(KM)

Are you a politician? You always avoid the real issues. Who owns a plane is rarely the same as who leases it or who operates it. That SIA is the owner probably only means that Lenny couldnt raise the $ in the first place. So, who owns the training college?

8th Apr 2001, 12:59
I don't see anything wrong with the bond. What if the pilot's train at SIA's "best in the world" facilities and then sling their hook and go off to some other airline??

That would put SIA at a loss. And remember when SIA sued some ex-pilots, for not paying off the bond? Some in the USA, and the United Kingdom, and somewhere else.

Really, I find these reports of pilot's cryin gon the phone to their friends quite disturbing, hence my post on what would you do if you were in charge of the new SIA.

Does SIA know about this? There's no point crying in here if SIA management, or at least, their Customer Relations department don't know.

Speak! Change SIA. It's a great airline. It's the best airline on the outside. Change it from the inside, and you'll get a much more better working atmosphere and I urge all of you co-pilots out there. Don't be scared of the captain. Toss the CRM in the First Class overhead compartment and confront him when you are unhappy.

The Comparer

8th Apr 2001, 13:58

first of all crm should never leave the cockpit. second of all the fear or reluctance of confrontation towards superiors is very much part of the asian way of life in the cockpit I noticed. Whilst I think its not the appropriate working eviroment in any airline its another story to tell someone to throw caution into the wind and risk delaying a 744 "promotion" or their command sigh!
I do understand what youre getting at but empowering the copilot without fear of retribution to be able to do what you suggest is the biggest hurdle for the local fo's

9th Apr 2001, 11:36

You really don’t get it do you? It seems as plane as a pike staff to me that the message everyone is trying to get over is that if SIA treated its pilots with respect, paid them a good and up to date salary/benefits package, had a proper staff travel scheme and had flight operations managers who were not corrupt, incompetent or mendacious, then pilots would be delighted to stay with SIA and devote a large part of their career to the airline, without a thought of “sling(ing) their hook and go off to some other airline” (sic).

As it is, the reverse is the situation because of years of use and abuse of the pilots by the management and most incumbent pilots now want out – preferably after receiving their back-pay/bonus and with a rating that can be parlayed into a well paid situation elsewhere, whilst, thanks to the internet, most other pilots in the world know to avoid SIA like the plague.

All you have to do is ask who brought all this to pass and who now has to sort out the mess after the old guard “sling their hooks”? It sure wasn’t the pilots, who seem to be stuck in the mire for some time to come!

Finally, you ask if SIA know about this. Well of course they do – its been policy for years to adopt the 50’s Harvard Business School, Rambo management methods – regardless that these methods have been discredited for decades in N.America and Europe as utterly inappropriate in dealing with seasoned professionals who have the ability to make huge contributions to organisations of which they are a part.

9th Apr 2001, 13:31
Wellsaid, I agree with you on the Rambo styled management, but let's not leave out its "Firefighting" management style.

I saw a pile of application letters on the 4th floor (about a foot thick !) reagrding Oz based positions a few days ago. And this is EXCLUDING the ones applying for Sin based.

Currently SIA captains on 777 are flying a very tight 85hours (actual) per 28 days and 850hours per year. This thanks to the flight time limitation stipulated in the now 29 months expired CA. Non-Sin based captains are not be covered under this provision and are being worked 100hours per 28 days, 1000hours per year (AOC limit). Go ask any LON based crew.

Then again, under the latest proposal from SIA to ALPAS dated 22 March, ex-pats pilots will be excluded from the new CA. So ex-pats will be worked 100hours per 28days and 1000hours per year anyway....

Go read :

9th Apr 2001, 21:26
I heared SQ will be employing ex-pats because due the Shortage of Pilots reported in CNA.

What are your comments on this then ?


14th Apr 2001, 02:40

Re your post of 9 April in respect of both the foot thick pile of application letters which you saw on the 4th floor STC and which related to applications for the advertised Perth/Brisbane based Singapore Airlines 777 captain positions and the other pile which related to applications for Singapore based captain positions (presumably for any fleet), perhaps I might introduce a small amount of perspective on this matter. Please be assured that I believe your post to be entirely accurate and I agree with it 100%.
Things have apparently looked up for Jokillah Anthony, the SQ lady who deals with such applications and who until latterly had noted with whatever emotion, a steady decline in both solicited and unsolicited applications to the company, that was inversely proportional to the volume of SQ clamour provided by and available to readers of Pprune and definitely of a slimmer dimension than that reported above. Perhaps pilots with the scantest experience record (no disrespect to them - we all have to start somewhere) now feel that it's worth their while disregarding everything printed on this web site and applying to SQ for a set of shackles, in the hope of scraping into the LHS of a "big jet".
A number of issues, hence, arise:
1. In light of burnoff's report, SQ appears to be considerably reducing the experience requirements of its direct entry captain recruits, to an extent that, rather than the dearth of late, it now has the previously mentioned imperial dimension of letters, mailed by possible candidates for Australia and an undisclosed dimension of aspirant applications for Singapore basing.
2. Secondly, it is now conjecture as to how the insurers of the Singapore Airlines fleet feel about this cynical diminution of required experience and possibly standards that the airline itself apparently seems entirely comfortable with.
3. Thirdly, one must only imagine how Jokillah herself feels, when directed to allow low hours pilots through the net, who formerly would not have received more than a two line "thanks but no thanks - apply again when you meet the stated experience requirements", following application and whom she knows, with the benefit of her extensive experience in the job to date, will be entirely unready for the positions on offer, on the basis of limited flying experience to date but, once in the LHS thanks to the new, expedient, SQ policy, make the possibility of a further "SQ006" somewhat more likely than hitherto.
4. Fourthly, it is debateable whether the training department will make a stand on the issue or will merely sit back, mutely acquiescing the "solution" to the recruiting problem. Their track record to date, in terminating certain limited experience/ability but well connected social/golf playing captains is uninspiring and no cause for optimism that the axe will be wielded on future pilots not up to scratch.
5. Fifthly, if the thousand pilots plus to be recruited in the next five years - the estimate of Lt Gen Bey "Window" (his Air Force soubriquet) - are to be brought into the airline successfully, it would seem only to be possible with an even further drop in experience requirements, as the General's perceived stance now seems to one of "punishing" the pilots for not instantly following orders and agreeing his last (only) offer to break the CA impasse, engineered over the past years by Maurice de Vaz - a formula guaranteed to drive away experienced pilots who may have considered joining the airline otherwise.
6. Finally, what effect can this have on the confidence in SQ, of the trusting but increasingly savvy travelling public, when they realise the dangerous state of affairs, which has come to pass?

Happy days

16th Apr 2001, 06:29
I thought it might be helpful to the fresh meat, if I mentioned the administrative arrangements of the SIA recruitment process.

Any pilot invited to the republic for the interview/medical/sim-check will be sent a “space available” Y class ticket. Do not bother to ask for an upgrade – try an indecent proposal instead – it will meet with a more positive response. If the flight is full down the back, forget it, you won’t get on, even though F and J may be wide open (happened to me on the way back to Europe, causing some embarrassment – do they give a toss though?).

Your accommodation is your own affair – work on S$120.00 per night (x 3 – or more if you can’t get on the return flight) in a just OK hotel – most guys stay with their mates, however, who then fill them in on the real story and strenuously try and dissuade them from joining.

Medical – again your affair – work on at least S$480.00 upfront but this figure may be higher now.

Subsistence – what do you think?

Compare with Eva/KAL/Asiana etc:

Firm booked J class ticket with auto upgrade to F if space available - car to meet at TPE/SEL.

All medical exam costs met by the airline.

First Class HOTAC provided during the interview/medical/sim-check period.
Subsistence allowance paid.

On top of which these other Asian airline go out of their way to make you welcome and convince you that they would like you to join them.

SIA? – you guessed it!

16th Apr 2001, 09:43
And they are looking for the right executive material to ultimately take responsibility for one of their very expensive aircraft with a load of their precious passengers down the back. :rolleyes:

Any body I know who is worth is salt and self esteem, would say "if that's how they treat you when they want you to come work for them, it won't get any better, so why bother."
It costs them absolutely nothing to transport you J or F and a piddling investment in hotel accomadation and some noodles.
If you take that kind of crap at the beginning then you have no right to complain later on.

17th Apr 2001, 13:35
I read with interest these postings regarding SQ. It is obvious that most of the people posting are not SQ personnel. What is most interesting is the underlying childishness of those posting, most of who are posing as ‘Professional Pilots.’

I urge the posters on this site to read through these postings. Maybe in the future you would like to use one of the drafts given below as a template for what you might like to write.

“Why would anyone work for Singapore Airlines?” I work for ANOTHER AIRLINE and I get more money! Nah Nah Ni Nah Nah!

“I read of a pilot that wanted to join SQ as a 777-200 pilot and he ended up flying A310s. What a dork. I fly 777s for ANOTHER AIRLINE.”

If anyone reading this post doesn’t get meaning of my post then I suggest you do not come to this website. I as a passenger with an interest in all aspects of flying from the psychological reasoning behind events leading up to a crash to what champagne they serve, find it distressing that people that are supposed to be professional should take the time to write so much inane trivia.

I suggest the lack of response from SQ personnel is not because they are overworked (although they may be) but I suggest that life in Asia lends it self to people going out and having fun rather than studying inane postings on a bulletin board.

Comments welcome.

[This message has been edited by davidmccracken (edited 17 April 2001).]

17th Apr 2001, 14:30
To Tosh26 and Titan.

Yeah, it's true, SIA is now scouring the Latin Americans. I agree Tosh26, they always look elsewhere and now they do in LA, Brazil the most. It seems that they think we at LA (that 3rd world) are desperate searching for "any" job. Honestly, I prefer to fly a ballon than working for them. I've recently posted an application for B777 at SQ, but when they confirmed the paying I quitted. They want to pay the equivalent of US$ 6,680.00 for a B777 captain. This is ridiculous. I have some buddies working as SIM instructors on A600, and their paying is almost the double. But let's all of us be honest ?! What to expect from a company like SIA ?? NOTHING, only slavering.

17th Apr 2001, 14:47
I have to agree what a buddy had posted:

"You can be sure that those South American pilots have bigger houses, better and more cars per family, have traveled to more countries, speak more languages, have prettier girls, have a much wider culture than some of the pilots in Western Europe or Australasia. The standard of living for the medium high or high class in Latin America may surprise many of you.
Also if the Brazilians fly the 777 the same way they drive the F1 cars, they must be very good." - And we certainly are. We can fly any glass cockpit just like you do, and honestly, even a monkey can fly a glass cockpit, just train it and it will do the work.

17th Apr 2001, 20:54
mccracken, it pains me to reply to your posting, but iam feeling in the mood. From what you have said you obviously have no concept of the words PROFESSIONAL PILOT or any understanding of there working environment and responsibilities, i susgest you look into it first before posting further inane trivial rantings, but this time come back with some sort of educated comment.

17th Apr 2001, 21:03
davidmccracken, that is the @#*&^#@iest post yet,you took the cake.

You are better off in a chat room, an asian chat room, you can then discuss the fun lifestyle of asia, particularly Singapore. What a do*k.

18th Apr 2001, 17:09
Perhaps davidmccracken would not mind me posting the following, even though I’m not “SQ personnel” and I am cutting approximately ten minutes off my time “going out and having fun rather than studying inane postings on a bulletin board”.

An interesting insight is provided into the SIA top echelon attitude by the following from Time magazine, dated 16 April 2001 and under the Global Agenda banner by Michael Elliot and titled “The March of Time Goes Airborne” :

Quote - As for the (Boeing) Sonic Cruiser, Cheong Choong Kong, chief executive of Singapore Airlines told the Financial Times “Boeing has spoken to us. We have encouraged them to proceed” (I love that lordly touch, as if the American company was a forelock-tugging gamekeeper asking a shooting party if they were ready for the pheasants) – Unquote.

Looks like humility is not a core value yet, even after SQ006!

18th Apr 2001, 18:46
Mr Flare Damit,

You seem to have an over rated sense of your own importance. Since you seem to think I do not understand what a PROFESSIONAL PILOT is, maybe you could enlighten me. If the responsiblity is something you feel you need to mention then maybe this suggests that you have inadequacies in your life. I would agree that the job does have responsibilites but you would have to be a radish short of a salad not to realise these responsibilites before entering into this career. As the old saying goes, "If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen."

I would appreciate you not telling me the stress level you are under. Tests have shown that pilots are under considerably more stress driving to work than they are flying. Have you considered another career?

Maybe I am being unfair..... Were you the pilot of 'Enola Gay?'

[This message has been edited by davidmccracken (edited 18 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by davidmccracken (edited 19 April 2001).]

19th Apr 2001, 05:22

please practise what you preach. youre beginning to sound like a spoilt child. There are lots of SQ personnel who read these pages and do not post for FEAR of being hauled through hot coals. I can assure you many of these postings are not as ridiculous as you might think.

SQ is facing tough times as far as morale is concerned. Naturally there will be negative remarks posted about it. Perhaps you would like to hold your toungue before you make a fool of yourself. If you dont like what you read, dont log on.... simple.

19th Apr 2001, 07:51

Agree with you there re: mccracken's post, but don't get sucked in . It's an attempt to disrupt the flow of the thread.

The moderators will pick up on this childish slanging match that he's trying to engage others into. These type of "off topic" postings are best ignored. May I suggest to mccracken to visit news:\\soc.culture.singapore if he wishes to engage in public slanging matches. :mad:

Interesting how these one time, or two time posters appear on pprune once in a while defending SQ. Me thinks it's either management, SQ shareholders or the Lee-public's ISA squad.

[This message has been edited by WSSS (edited 19 April 2001).]

19th Apr 2001, 18:10

Thank you very much for your most amusing post of 17 April, which we all enjoyed and in which you make a couple of merry suggestions and offer what I know you consider to be adroit and insightful observations, in a piece startlingly similar in style to the letters “from the SVP’s Desk” – are they by any chance, in any way related? I think we should be told.

As I am indeed “SQ personnel”, perhaps you would not mind if I made some observations of my own, which, I hope, will go some way towards both easing your future dealings with pprune and reassuring you that all is well with contributors to and readers of the web site in your sights.

Now whilst a number of our posts do display a certain “laddish exuberance” and simplicity of expression, both of which may trap the unwary or unworldly reader into the presumption of puerility of style and content, the deft and clever reader will quickly recognise the manifest symptoms of a company and national regime which has no mechanism to accommodate any effective form of cathartic suggestion, dissent, or criticism, constructive or otherwise and which is content to lurch onwards, using its own template of authoritarian complacency, regardless of any historically demonstrated imperative to continually re-invent itself. Please allow that my counsel to you is absolutely correct when I tell you that, regardless of writing style, the pilot contributors you refer to, whether SQ or not, are as consistently professional in the execution of their calling as any concerned passenger you purport to be, could ever wish to have at the controls of an aeroplane.

Next, you pose the question, as part of your interesting template project, “Why would anyone work for Singapore Airlines?” Well, why indeed would anyone work for this company if they knew in advance how poorly they would be treated, how they would be consistently lied to and how arbitrarily the “contract” would be unilaterally altered to assuage the overwhelming corporate greed of the monster that clutched them, bonded and bank guaranteed, to its breast. Should we all keep it a secret or should we use pprune to warn our fellow professionals to avoid the SQ siren song like the plague and keep well clear of the rocks?

Moreover, you say “I read of a pilot that wanted to join SQ as a 777-200 pilot and he ended up flying the A310’s etc, etc”. Well, please see the above. Is it not morally imperative that we warn our fellows of the blatant lies, cheating and misrepresentations that are part and parcel of the SQ recruitment procedure and do so in a spirit that is far removed from the petty triumphalism that you allege in a manner which, a person of less charitable disposition than myself, would ascribe as intensely childish.

In respect of your suggestion “If anyone reading this post doesn’t get meaning (sic) of my post then I suggest you do not come to this website”, may I tell you that most non-SQ pilots I know regularly read pprune and further more, EVERY-SQ pilot reads pprune – including the flt ops management, of whom, indeed, you may be a member – so why they should suddenly cease to read, at the behest of your peremptory suggestion, I am unable to divine.

You further allege, in your guise of concerned passenger, that you have outrageously been the recipient of inane trivia at the hands of supposed professionals. Sadly, perhaps it would be best in these upsetting circumstances if you quickly followed your own advice and “not come to this website” but, before departing, never to return, reflect on the amount of information, insight, knowledge and factual analysis that you may have overlooked in your rush to judgement and condemnation of posts to date.

Finally, your unbelievably naïve but captivatingly whimsical notion that “Life in Asia lends it self (sic) to people going out and having fun rather than studying inane (that word again) postings on a bulletin board” ignores the reality that posting on pprune is merely a small part in the full lives led by aware and concerned professionals. Further the last sentiment that you express exemplifies the insufferable paternalism of a company and a regime that believes we should all be good boys, accept what daddy says, go out to play and leave the doling of pocket money and the running of the show to the great big adults.

Nice try Maurice (and friend).

19th Apr 2001, 18:20
I´m speechless...

That was GOOD.

19th Apr 2001, 21:13
Mr Insider107,

Those dictionary pills are certainly working a treat. (I hope they are not illegal in Singapore.)

First of all let me assure you I am not a 'concerned' passenger. I am nevertheless a passenger.

You do seem to have picked up that there was more to my posting than antagonism. (10/10 and a sweetie for you there!) You are right to warn people of working for a crap (sorry my Thesaurus has gone missing) company. However what worries me is that supposedly intelligent people sign these contracts. I must re-iterate (that one isn’t too bad is it?) that my post was not directed at the likes of you who have signed a contract in blind faith, rather it is directed towards those who are jeering at you for doing so.

Obviously I would not be posting if I did not have an interest in flying or the business of flying.

As a side issue you may find the following amusing. I have NEVER had this conversation with SQ.

Airline – “Do you want to fly today?”

Me – “Yes! Why?”

Airline – “We can’t guarantee there is aviation spirit in the aeroplane.”

Me – “Maybe I won’t fly today.”

Aren’t all your squabbles a bit petty when your fellow pilots in some parts of the world are expected to fly in such conditions?

Thanks for your answer though.

20th Apr 2001, 00:46
This guy has gotta be on drugs.

20th Apr 2001, 02:05
Gents, gents ...... please!
The davidmccrackens appear every now and then and as quickly disappear. Their profile generally consists of being school age boys who have just completed reading the Biggles series and are caught between there and lusting for their first taste of Hefner. This also explains their repugnant fervent nationalism that derives from a national inferiority complex (small man/island syndrome) and a subconscious longing for greener grass.
But treat these fools gently, for they are each Jonathon Livingston Seagulls in the making.
Now David, go and clean up the sticky mess you made and finish your school work before Daddy Maurice gets home - ah, you do him proud son!

20th Apr 2001, 10:37
A Gift of Slings by Jonathon Livingston Titan

Mr Titan

Your comment that I am childish is priceless. At the time of writing there are nearly 30,000 registered members of PPRUNE and precious few have the bottle to post under their real names. I find that laughable.

I will leave that one with you!

Don't make assumptions. I don't. If you want to know something...... just ask.

In the slot
20th Apr 2001, 22:54
david mccracken
You see to be getting rather excited by the internal discussions of the airline pilot community. Relax my friend, whoever you may be!!

21st Apr 2001, 02:13

Your real name? Maybe, but the odds are against it ....... don't you think?

21st Apr 2001, 13:36
I would say definitely our old mate "freemantle" - remember the wind up merchant with the IT qualifications prepared to work for free in the aviation industry!

25th Apr 2001, 11:09
Can I say something guys!ALPA-S has no strength and juice to have a new package for you and knowing the goverment way of dealing such agreements ,they will come around with a way to sort it out.May be by posting out people to other bases and weakening ALPA-S strength.(which is anyway very weak to handle this situation).Courts are anyway going to decide in the Republics'favour.So its just wasting time for sour grapes.Best of luck anyway!By the way, is it Chinese new year of "RATS"!!?

26th Apr 2001, 10:48
Its all gone quiet here - has everyone left SIA? I hope the last guy turned the lights out!

1st May 2001, 17:35
Noticed a piece in Newsweek of 4 April which seems fairly pertinent:

“Singapore enjoys far greater economic freedom than China but shares its obsession with political stability. The country has also moved from an initially ham-fisted attitude regarding the Internet towards more refined, selective controls. Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew now talks about how Singaporeans, in order to compete in the digital world, must embrace the “messiness” of the entrepreneurial mind-set, Government officials are thought to log on to argue the official line in chat rooms, using pseudonyms. The Internet, says Lee, is something we can’t control now.”

Does the cap fit davidmaccracken?

1st May 2001, 20:15
Yup. Sure does, yes sir-lee, it sure does.

2nd May 2001, 23:05
Mr Tosh et al,

I don't think your cap would fit! Such a narrow minded person would surely wear a narrow cap.

As I have said before I am who I am. 99.9% of those posting on here are not.

Why are you all so uptight about who I might be? Are you all so insecure? You should all think about joining the 'Singapore Paranoia Club' near Changi. I was a memeber there once but they threw me out for looking at them.

Does SQ fly on International Paranoia Day or are all there personnel at meetings? I don't know the answer to this and would love to be enlightened.

3rd May 2001, 07:46
So SQ flight ops management read this eh.....
Well if that's so, may I ask you why do you turn down many good and qualified pilots that want to join you direct entry on LOCAL terms as well (since they are Singaporean or Malaysian) while in the mean time you cry pilot shortage and cancel leave of some of your pilots while advertising for expat direct entry over and over again! What the hell are you looking for!

Well, I applied, you were not interested and I'm now somewhere else and in all modesty I can tell you it's YOUR LOSS SIA!

P.S. I don't usually have a rant and rave on PPRuNe but since Lenny and Maurice might be amongst us...I thought we'd have a chat.

3rd May 2001, 11:41
Infact,you've to be rated
and if you're lucky though.


3rd May 2001, 11:52
I dont work for SIA nor do I live in SIA-land, I´m simply a fellow pilot with one of the European airlines who slided in on this topic.

It is interesting to see how we pilots tend to waste our time defending ourselfs against attacks on our profession without really knowing who the enemy is.
What comes to mind is Mr.davidmcc...whatever, (must admitt, I didn´t bother remembering the name), he is a clearly disturbed person who needs help and understanding for his shortcomings as a human.
We should not expose him more nor feel attacked, simply send a thought of forgivness for his lack of human evolution.

So my fellow friends good luck with SIA and I´m looking forward to see some positive development for you there.

Born to fly, taxed out of the sky.....

3rd May 2001, 17:14

I afraid that individual (davidmccracken)is rumoured to be the SVP of Flight Operations Management.

4th May 2001, 04:51
What a loser!

Ignition Override
4th May 2001, 10:06
Whether living in Singapore as an airline pilot or as some other professional, how does life compare to that in the US, Canada, Western Europe, Australia?

Having never seen an answer to this question before, it must not be worth answering (?).

I'm just a US native/resident who likes to hear about life overseas, and by choice prefers flying the older "steam-gauge" planes to a wide variety of airports (no Eagle or Missoula...thanks anyway). Except for limited stays in Cairo and Mogadishu (early 80's), my exposure to the world consists mostly of Western Europe, via the KLM network. Definitely not an agent of any government diktatorships.

4th May 2001, 12:29
I'm afraid D Mc is p***ing everyone one off on CX threads now. Are you sure you know who he is?

4th May 2001, 12:59
As mentioned before, if you want to know who I am then ask.

That said I would say there is not much more to me than can be found by following the links beside my postings.

However, if you want to know who I am, then you will have to divulge who you are. I suspect that most of you spineless paranoid posters will not do that.

As for my postings on the CX thread. It seems that those replying to me there have a lot more intelligence and respect for what I am saying than you lot do here. I like discussion and this is what these forums are all about.

It is a pity the vast majority of you on this thread use it as a medium for ranting about your inadequacies which you perceive to be the fault of the airline that employed you.

4th May 2001, 22:37
I just wonder if mccraken is a duracell battery, you know the one in the tv advert-- its put into this annoying white rabbit that moves around banging on a little tin drum. It just goes on and on and on and on etc. Irritates the s**t out of you after 2 mins.

4th May 2001, 23:20
It looks like someone will NOT give up begging for constant attention..... SQ recruiting policies suck, hence the present shortage! How difficult is it to comprehend this one and stay focus D????MCC????? ?!

5th May 2001, 02:43
DavidMc is Lee Kuan Yew himself.

5th May 2001, 04:50
davidmccracken seems to have a proximity sensor fitted on the fingers, when he brings them next to the keyboard, it shuts off his brain. When his brain works he does not type. More so it looks he also have a .0001 milliamps fuse for the brain, little bit fluctuation and fuse goes off.
sorry davMc this seems to be the truth

5th May 2001, 20:48
The other snippet heard down route from the SIA guys is that recruiting is now so desperate that some of the very few east European pilots recently pulled in can barely speak English and that when they check in for flights they have to bring their relevant dictionaries with them.

Must make for great communications and flight safety!

Best airline in the world?

6th May 2001, 04:24
Just for fun I applied to the add in Aviation Week. With about 8 years in the B-747 and another 3 in the B-747/400, all command. They e-mailed me back that I was not qualified!

I don't think they are really serious about hiring just yet, sort of like the short term contracts in Korea a few years back. Happy that I work for a US major, still an F/O 3 years after joining, (little attitude adjustment necessary, but good for me) I make more then a B-747 Capt. at most asian carriers and have 16 to 18 days off per month, respect, little politics, and good insurance.

They would have to come up 75% to 100% before I would take the time to interview. Good luck SIA.

10th May 2001, 17:03
I am a 767 driver with Asiana Airlines. Nothing to complain about the airline. Of course the money is below average and the destinations are not exactly fascinating, as well as living in Seoul has very few things in common with French Riviera or Florida...
So I am thinking about applying for SIA 777.
Would you please tell me the pros and cons of working there?

10th May 2001, 18:45

Check out the following for full details:


10th May 2001, 19:55
Thank you Tosh!

So is it that bad?
Well, everything is good or bad depending on what you compare. As far as I know, KAL is the best for now. Unfortunately, no more vacancies for non type current drivers.
The main problem here is that, as I have two pre-school kids (in spite of being well into the 40s...) decent school is at prohibitive prices. Winter and air pollution in Seoul are also simply unbearable...finally, you are on yourself if you don't speak korean.

What SIA's package REALLY offers in terms of sponsoring studies and home, and how much money you can end up making?

kind regards!

11th May 2001, 11:14

Please see the quote from Mack Number of 27 Feb 2001:

"You neglected to mention that any expat who joined SIA in the last 5 years isn't entitled to CPF. We get a provident fund (10% contribution from the company) which has managed to lose money ever since it's inception. (Our beloved DFO is on the board of directors,of course). No bonus contribution to the fund either. What about the former 6% increment that mangement diddled from the pilots last year? I don't think a pilot who joined now will be making $12,000 basic per month after 10 years.(Maybe after the pay rise comes in-but we will never obtain the same ratio of pay that we would have if the 6% increment wasn't changed). And management also moved the goal posts in the determination of how much bonus is paid (knowing there will be record profits this year). And the housing allowance is only 80% subsidy-so you have to pay about $12,000 a year towards your house. And the school fees have risen 30% since the last time they were adjusted, so plan on about $6,000+ a year out of pocket for each kid. And the lousiest staff travel in the industry, so if you don't live in a SIA destination city, you must pay for tickets to go home from the nearest SIA city from which you live. (Even though we are part of Star Alliance). And a car will set you back $85,000. And if you are not type rated, you must front-up with a bond of $45,000+ (depending on type)."

Please bear the above in mind if you interview - the only thing that will come up is "can you pay the S$45,000 bg?"


PS. Nearly forgot. Your first year tax bill would be approx S$30,000. Your first 3 months salary while under training would be S$5300 per month approx. You would have to put down a housing deposit of 3 months rent - near enough S$13,000 and a full terms deposit for each child's school fees - work on S$5,000 each. So bring plenty of money!

[This message has been edited by Tosh26 (edited 11 May 2001).]

11th May 2001, 14:28
Welcome to the "fine" city. Don't worry about the bad stuffs, it's true .
But here in the lion city is where the action is, so pls don't hesitate to apply and "experience" the life with SQ.
Biggest bonus is you could leave with a precious 777 / 747-400 / A340 rating.
Not so bad afterall.

11th May 2001, 17:43
Dear Tosh and 0.88M,

Thanks for your always nice reply!

But, is really there a USD 40 grand bond?

Here a decent school costs almost Harvard : USD 18 grand a year per kid!
What if I decide to live in, say, LA with SIA 777? How much I would end up doing?

You really think doesn't worth apply, in my case? I make here USD 6,000 a month plus USD 1,750 allowance. Monthly bills (supermarket, gas, electricity, telephone etc) take an average 1,000 (no school for a while...). And, yes, cars are nice and cheap.

Usually, 9 to 10 days off a month, but never straight. Many flights are same day round trips, so you end up sleeping at home at least 16 to 17 nights a month.

Is SIA, at the end, recruiting a lot indeed?
What they are looking for, after all, as I've seen so many super qualified drivers apply and get only that " Your application was not successful" email?

Nice flights, buddies!

11th May 2001, 18:01

The bond you would have to sign would be for S$350,000 decreasing over a five year period. To join, you would have to pay over a sum of S$45,000 (USD26,500)to a Singapore bank who would then provide the five year guarantee to SIA - an expensive business that more and more pilots are (rightly) shying away from.

Best regards

11th May 2001, 18:55

Well, this answers a lot of questions. The primary one is, if living with SIA would be so nice, there wouldn't need any bond like this. Type rated pilots wouldn't be looking for any further place.

Kind regards

12th May 2001, 16:54
Hi boeingfly....
Here in Singapore also per child it will cost you about SGD 20,000 per year. As other friends have mentioned you need to give a bank gaurantee for SGD 45,000. The Singaporean bank will ask you to deposit around SGD 50,000/- in fixed deposit for 5 year and 5 months (which you can't touch) and your money will be earning interest
@ 2.33% per year, against this money the bank will give the gauranee to SQ. On top of this , if you are not type rated (which you are not) you have sign the bond I an not sure about the right amount but it should be couple of hundred thousand dollors. Then please bring another SGD 10,000 to be given to the house owner for 2 year as interest free deposit for renting you the house. This money you may not get back as the landlord try to adjust at the end of lease period against any damage to the house walls or bath-room walls etc. If you have to put 2 kids in a school here then you will require another about SGD 16,000 to be deposted with the school till your kids study there.(this is ofcourse with out any interest) The cars here are ridiculously expensive say like a honda civic will cost you about USD 55,000/-
You say that you are making about USD 7,750/- in Korea, let me tell you here also you will not be able to make more than USD 8,250 on the 777 fleet, this also if you are posted here in Singapore. We have seen the flight international, what kind of aweful salary SQ have advertised. Don't ever believe, that you will be paid what is mentined in the Flight International as salary per month. Suppose you are getting any subsidised food in Singapore, SQ will include the amount of subsidy in your salary and advertise that you will be getting this as a salary per month. Factually it will be different. This company has lot of glitter so be careful. And if you come here, then these guys are expert in locking you up here for atleast 5 yr and 5 months. We have some of the Captains who are looking forward to go on leave for close to one year and there is no hope they will be given leave. The staff travel is one of the worst in the industry. The so called previlaged travel by confirm "F" class once a year, you will have to pay income tax on the cost of the free ticket. Nothing is free here, its how they sugar coat it and make you swollow the pill. So choice is yours. If you are coming then be prepared to say that Korean was a better company to work for, I am yet to see one pilot, who has not said that his earlier company was better than SQ in all respect. So make the right choice, don't say later that people did not warn you. Yes you can forget about the 16 to 17 night home with the family if you are coming here. SQ does not employ any body, even the locals to sleep with their wives at home. You have to earn for them so that they can sleep well with their wives.
As for recruitment is concerned, its an eyewash, if you are called for an interview that means you are selected, but you have to come here and complete the formalities. First question asked will be whether you can furnish the bank gaurantee or not, if not then you can go home.
" Your application was not successful" email is generally sent to theose qualified pilots whom the company knows earlier or who know the company. Any fresh meat will never get this kind of reply, ultimately he has to be butchered, while he is smiling.

12th May 2001, 20:04

Thank you so much!
What a prision, eh?
Does Human Rights and Haya Convention are aware of this? It is an unbearable abuse, on 21st century.

Even so,
1.- is there a 777 base in LA, and in positive case, how is the money?
2.- could you forward me a typical month roster for the 777?
3.- Does SIA consider expat for 747? What they mean "national terms" on their website, in case of 747 captains?

As for the recruitment, a friend of mine, a driver with impeccable professional records, 11,000 TT, 7,000 plus PIC, mostly Efis, also 767 current received after 3 months he applied an invitation email for the interview. He acknowledge, exchanged several emails and phone calls on the details, went after a lot of paperwork, asked his airline schedule the necessary days off to go to Singapore and, 2 weeks before the appointment, emailed SIA to confirm the tickets pick up.
Guess what? He got: "We regret to inform you that we reviewed your application and considered your interview canceled.
Thanks for your interest in SIA..."
This after 4 months they have this professional applications in his hands, made him lose a lot of time and effort. The guy has never anything with SIA or any airline whatsoever. Just an excellent professional looking for an opportunity. How could this happen?
If they have such an example of professional respect, we can easily imagine how things go when you are already caught...

Nice flights

12th May 2001, 21:40
This is not new, if SIA cannot exploit you, they do not want you.

14th May 2001, 07:21
Here in SQ the national term means that the SQ will save lot of money, every penny count here buddy in this Lee-public of Stingapore.
If you accept appointment on national term than the company will not pay you the housing subsidy(SGD 3450), they don't pay you children education(SGD 1500 for 2 kids)and ofcourse you are not entitled for the expat allowance(SGD 1025)so net gain per national term pilot to the company is SGD 5975/- only and on national term you will need to spend all the money earned here in the island only. you will save may be SGD 1000/- per month.
yes about your friend, may be SQ though that he asks too many questions even before joining. Here asking questions is only SQ's BIRTH RIGHT, pilots only have right to answer. Can you imagine your telephone conversation with Chief pilot, his deputy or the crew scheduler is always recorded. Here they don't trust anybody.

Does SIA consider expat for 747? What they mean "national terms" on their website, in case of 747 captains?

14th May 2001, 10:46
Twitchy, thanks,

Like a friend of mine say, it's too bad to be true! Unfortunately, we have to admit that here at Pprune most of the information are trustworthy...
Well, it seems pretty hard to find out something that offsets what living in Seoul means!
Does 777 have base in LA? What is the money and typical roster?

14th May 2001, 13:05

There is no current SQ 777 base in LAX nor is there any plan for one as far as my colleagues and myself know.

Best regards

14th May 2001, 19:21

Thank you.

If somebody could send me a typical roster for 777 (be careful in erasing all signs that could possibly indentify it!...) it would be very nice.
What is the standard of the apartments (or houses) expats use? And as for food, school and typical monthly bills, how much a family of four would spend monthly (average standard living)?Is it possible to save something?

Best regards

26th May 2001, 20:18
As the pressure mounts to crew the ever increasing number of 777’s backing up for delivery to SQ, experience standards for desperately needed ex-pat captains inexorably plummet. These formerly high entry standards, in terms of total/command hours to date, routes flown and types operated in major airline service have all dropped by the wayside and anyone with a modest amount of jet command time, gained in whatever circumstances will be considered as meat for the grinder. The lady on the recruiting battlefront, Jokillah Anthony, has her instructions to this effect, of course, though naturally not in writing, so if one of her protégés ever involves the airline in another SQ006, she will be firmly in the firing line along with the flight ops interviewer who endorsed the fateful choice.

All utterly ridiculous, totally unnecessary and to be laid at the door of the corrupt de Vaz flight ops regime of the last twenty years, which, to achieve personal wealth at the expense of the pilot body, has sought to turn what could be the best airline job in the world, attracting the industry’s highest calibre and best experienced captains, into the present poorly paid backwater, seething with discontent and loathing, held together, for a limited time more, by the time honoured amalgam of fear and the infamous, onerous and hated bonding/bank guarantee system. So limited has been the outlook and experience of these dummies that it has never crossed their minds that there could be an alternative, enlightened management methodology, which, even if they did not start out with, they could have evolved with a little intelligence and foresight – qualities which recent events and the present manning crisis have clearly demonstrated to have been lacking!

My point on this posting is prompted by some of the contributions that I’ve read on the current GF-072 thread and which seem to indicate (very simply put) that a young, very inexperienced captain of a given personality profile was not prevented by his first officer from flying his airplane into the sea in circumstances that were largely self induced. I do not wish to enter debate on the merits or otherwise of this crew’s actions but merely to indicate that SQ will shortly find itself in the position of fielding similar crew compositions, of equally young and inexperienced captains, brought in from outside and, hence, possessed of unknown personality profiles, with similarly very young but well trained and indoctrinated ex-cadets, bereft however, of the inclination or CRM training to say “captain, this is not working, I have control”.

Before treading this dangerous path further, SQ in turn needs to say, “this is not working”. The man currently entering the role of flight ops supremo, Lt General LG Bey must now take control from de Vaz, dump him and his baggage and get to grips with captain recruiting before further disaster strikes. He has already taken the first step by very creditably breaking the two-year de Vaz generated pay negotiation impasse and, following the initial snub by the younger members of ALPAS, continued to deal with the ALPAS President and reach an amicable settlement with the pilot force. I do believe we need to congratulate him on this salvage effort.

The General now needs to take stock and figure that to turn SQ into what I indicated could be the world’s best airline job, with a waiting list to get in and people only leaving at retirement, he perhaps requires some outside assistance from, as a start, Professor Helmreich, of the University of Texas who, after making this newly suggested input in addition to the presently contracted safety survey contribution, will in turn be able to recommend further assistance from suitable international recruiting consultants. The point of this exercise is that (sorry to say this first bit General) not only does the money need to quickly go higher to bring in the needed captains but the whole substance and perception of terms and conditions of employment amongst incumbent and targeted pilots must be brought into the twenty first century and moved away from the present feeling that pilots are worthless commodities to be bilked and dumped at will. Existing pilots need proper inducements to stay – not bonds/bank guarantees – but solid feelings of respect and value by an enlightened and forward looking leadership which pays more than lip service to the ideas of employee welfare, career development and the legitimate aspirations of the individual.

It is worth mentioning that Senior Minister Lee’s sentiment, as reported on the front page, by the Straits Time’s Finance Correspondent, in the May 23 2001 edition, is “pay top dollar if you want top talent”. SM Lee is further quoted as saying “Singapore will have to opt out of being a serious player in the internationally competitive game of attracting top talent if it refuses to abide by this principle”. Whilst he was in fact referring to the attraction and retention of supremely talented international fund managers and bankers with desirable employment packages, the principle holds good for the attraction and retention of similarly talented international pilots – on whose services the airline has publicly stated its dependence.

The question for SQ is, do you really want the quality of pilots you say you do and are now prepared to provide a modern, attractive benefit package and employment conditions to get them, or do you continue to pay lip service and quietly trawl for the cheapest and most easily subjugated disposable commodity that the world market can provide? Your choice - but be prepared to live with the consequences.

27th May 2001, 01:16
Nice post, and very true, Insider, except that nothing will cause Joy in recruitment to get 'un-stuck'.

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 29 May 2001).]

27th May 2001, 13:26
... was interested very much by all the info ! question/ what are the min requirements to join Singapore Airlines as a first officer or second officer ... I hold a Irish CPL multi IR + MCC 800 hours total time ... and I keep receiving the answer that I must be a local to apply for cadet sponsoring despite that I apply for direct entry position ! ... 3 identical letters !
Thanks in advance !

27th May 2001, 13:42
Thanks for the interesting topic, question/ what are the requirement for a F/O or S/O with SIA, holding Irish CPL IR multi 800 total time, and despite I am asking for a direct entry pos they keep answering that I need to be a local to apply for a cadet sponsorship ... thanks in advance !

27th May 2001, 13:56
... looking for info regarding min requirements for S/O or F/O with SIA, holding Irish CPL IR multi 800 total time ... keep receiving answer saying I can't apply for cadet sponsorship despite I apply for direct entry ... thanks in advance !


27th May 2001, 14:48
Insider 107

I do not pretend to talk about the labor problems that you have with SIA, I honestly ignore them and I assume that you are right about all the grievances you may have against your company. As I neither work nor pretend to work for SIA I will only talk about the attack that without realizing it, you are doing against your colleagues around the world.

Correct me if I am wrong as I am referring to the ads that SIA placed in FI requesting B 777 and A 340. According to them for the A 340 and 777 the minimum experienced required is 7000 Hrs. TT including 3000 Hrs. on command in jets equipped with FMC and EFIS,.

Seems to me that you think that only somebody that has climb the ladder in SIA or that has 3000 Hrs. of experience in widebody aircraft is capable of performing the job in Singapore Airlines. As you express that the levels of experience of the pilots being recruited are very low let me ask you some questions:

1. Why is more difficult to fly a B 777 that is probably the most advanced airplane in the world than flying a Boeing 737-300? Every single pilot that I know and has experience in both wide body and narrow body tells me that it is easier to fly the wide body airplanes as they are more stable. Actually in the company I fly there are more problems moving to the narrow body fleet than going to the wide body fleet. Do you have any experience in narrow body jets?
2. How many wide body airplanes have crashed because the captain was in his first command in a widebody aircraft? I do not recall any accident on the B 747 Classic, L 1011 or DC 10 when they were first introduced in the early 70’s due to the lack of experience of the pilots in wide body airplanes, do you?
3. Why the requisites that were enough to fly the 310 in SIA until 2 years ago are not enough to fly the A 340 or the B 777? Is it more difficult to fly a B 777 than an A-310, if your answer is yes then the people in Boeing may feel terrible knowing that their newest baby is worst than the old A 310.
4. Why is more difficult to fly long haul in a B-777 with all it’s back up and navigation systems than to fly ETOPS in a B-737-300? (However I agree with those that say that those that are pushing the B-777ETOPS (180 or 207) to the limits, like flying over the poles with really substandard suitable airports, sooner or later will burn their hands)
5. I will assume that most airports that SIA operates are equipped with ILS as usually they are major international airports. When was the last time that you had to made an NDB approach to an airport situated in very narrow valleys, like most of the 737 or Md-80 pilots operating in East Asia or South America? When was the last time that you operated in an Airport with an elevation above 7000 ft? What do you think is easier to land an A 340 in Changi or to land a B 727 in La Paz at more than 13 000 ft, What do you think is more difficult to navigate a B 777 over South East Asia or a TU 154 over Siberia during the winter? Do you think you can do it? The difference between long haul and short haul pilots is that long haul pilots mainly operate to the primary airports in the world while the pilots in the narrow body, short haul operation operate into the first, second and third level fields around the world.
6. On average how many sectors do you need to get 3000 Hrs. on a B 777 compared to a B 737, don’t you think that measuring experience only in flight time is a very narrow way of thinking?
7. Why do you talk about the GF-072 level of experience of the captain, when we both know that his level of experience was far less than the 3000 Hrs. required by SIA, this is misleading to say the least. On the same token do you think that any pilot around the world gets his first command with 3000 Hrs. PIC already? Everybody starts from ZERO, Do you have any idea of the levels of experience of the colleagues upgrading at this time in the majors in the USA, believe me is far less than the experienced required in SIA.
8. Why is so difficult to adapt for a Professional Pilot to SIA procedures? Don’t forget that many of the pilots joining SIA have been in several airlines in different countries around the world, just because it may be difficult for you, it doesn’t mean that it is difficult for every body.
9. Why do you say in your post: in another SQ006, she will be firmly in the firing line along with the flight ops interviewer who endorsed the fateful choice. I have read the preliminary report of SQ 006 and I do not think that the level of experience of the pilots had anything to do with the accident, again this is misleading. I think that most serious pilots in this forum agreed that it was a very unfortunate accident that may happen to any of us, please show respect for the pilots of that airplane, How do you expect to get support from colleagues if you attack the pilots that are in the same ship as you are. I f there is another accident it will be another accident not another SQ 006. I think that SQ 006 may happen either in a B 747 or a CRJ.
10. For you what is the right level of experience of a pilot to take a command in a B 777 or A-340 in any airline of the world? If you say 3000 Hrs. widebody time then I will say that there are plenty of inexperienced pilots flying for many airlines over the skies around the world.

Insider as I said before do not assume that just because some thing are difficult for you to do are difficult for everybody, I certainly think that any professional pilot with 7000 Hrs. TT and 3000 Hrs. on command in Jet with FMC and EFIS time, with the right amount of dedication and professionalism may succeed in SIA.

Insider in order to solve those problems you have in SIA you will have to look at a much wider picture, I honestly think that that you are leaving in the SIA micro world and have no idea what is going around the world, things will never change for you just because you attack your fellow pilots, The only thing these pilots did was to apply and accept a job that was offered to them, remember there is no industrial action in SIA, I think that instead of attacking them you should work together to change whatever you don’t like in your company, look at the examples of Delta and Lufthansa pilots that is the only way.

Thank you

Mad Dog 11
27th May 2001, 15:01
Well I would like to express my opinion regarding Latin American pilots. From what I have read in this thread it appears that some of you have elected to put down some my fellow colleagues. Being a pilot who has worked with VASP, I can attest that the majority of the pilots there are safe to fly with. Of course we can't expect all of them to be fluent in english because obviously they don't come from an english speaking countries. They can though, understand basic Enlgish ATC orders and follow them precisely. I'm on the verge of joining another S.American carrier, VARIG. Now with this company, I can assure you that the standards are as high as any carrier out there. Please lets not generalize when we talk about S.America please.
I'm defending the interests of Brazilian pilots and urge other fellow S.American pilots to do the same.

27th May 2001, 15:54
Mad Dog,

You've made a point!
I've been with Varig for almost 20 years, and all I can say is that, during all this time, I enjoyed professional respect, support, good management and strong technical backgrounds. Never suffered schedule or "go" pressures. All my decisions as captain were respected and supported everytime.
The weak side is, of course, salary. But this is not Varig's fault, it is Brazilian macroeconomics instead.

Because of this I am experiencing how is life outside the nest. Presently I am on an Asian temporary contract. And it is being good to give more value on what we have.
You are definitely right, they don't do ANY BETTER than we do. They just grab on own standard procedures like a life buoys because of their lack of good "seat of the pants" and "readiness for the unexpected" behavior.

Prejudice and basic ignorance sometimes make it difficult for some "first worlders" see Brazil produces as many excellent professionals as any place else.

27th May 2001, 16:10
Singapore is an absulute DUMP unless you are stopping off as an SIA trapped tourist that see's only the down town tourist area's.

How should I know .... well I worked and lived there for two years. I know the local Air Force way of doing things and I believe I realise the way it carries over to SIA.

Anyone thinking of "helping out" SIA and advancing their career at the same time are fools to themselves and their families. It's going to be a one way street where you give and in return will be the abused for the privilege.

Asia (I've lived here over 14 years) is the most RACIST area on this planet..... if you aren't Singapore born Chinese (in Singapore) you are a second class person. It makes you wonder who did all the fighting in WW2. Not the collaborating Chinese traders that now rule the roost, I suspect.

However I digress. If you go to SIA you are little more than a maid in Hong Kong...... thanks for helping us out, but no rights and don't expect to be treated like a local.

Just my thought's and hated no doubt by brainwashed Singaporian's. I've lived the truth and agree with all that is suggested that is wrong with SIA.

By the way, I am an airline pilot, and I do fly within Asia on occasions. I hear what the SIA expat say's around the traps.

Be recruited at your peril.

Roll on the "you are a racist" bu11****.

28th May 2001, 11:21

What a well-reasoned and very sensible piece you took the trouble to compose and post on 27 May - please be assured that I agree with your views 100%.

However, you do not understand the complex currents that flow beneath the Singapore Airlines surface and nor should you be expected to. The fact remains that

 Pilots are now being recruited with no experience at all of FMC and EFIS.
 Similarly, the very reasonably stated experience requirements of the FI ads are being waived, as few pilots at this stage of their careers are bothering to respond to the SQ ads.
 Of the pilots who meet the qualification requirements and do respond, a number have asked very reasonable but very direct questions of the deal on offer and so have subsequently been deemed “unsuitable”.
 Again, of the qualified pilots who do apply, a number are deemed to have experience inappropriate to SQ’s requirements (don’t ask me why – it’s still a mystery to me in a number of cases!).
 Of the pilots finally offered positions, a number are having second thoughts and turning SQ down.

Moving on, I apologise unreservedly to my colleagues around the world if it has seemed to them that I have attacked them, unconsciously or otherwise. I have in fact stated on this thread my belief in the legitimate aspirations of the individual – a stance inconsistent with any form of aggression towards my fellow professionals.

In respect of types/roles/hours, the bulk of my flying has been mainstream jet transport and I have spent very many years flying non FMC/EFIS/Basic Nav fit jet airliners into some very funny parts of the world. Yes you are perfectly correct in saying that this type of flying is far more demanding than driving an A340/B777/B747 around the sky. However, SQ is not so much looking for handling skills/instrument procedure skills – they take it for granted that they come with the package – they are looking for maturity, long experience and a personality profile that can integrate within a multi-cultural working environment, coupled with extensive experience on the same or similar types operated by the airline, in similar roles – not unreasonable qualifications where the main requirements of the job are to ensure absolutely crystal clear communication between crew members and to calmly assess some very difficult situations that arise, as they do anywhere, but which are exacerbated by company pressures seemingly unique to SQ.

Of the command qualities most likely to prevent the future equivalent of the SQ006 disaster, I would humbly suggest that the ability to “calmly assess” is the one that will save the day. I may be different but when I was a lot younger and much less experienced, this quality seemed to get a back seat on most occasions.

On the point of my living in “the SIA micro world”, again please be reassured that I am not. I have a wide spread of experience around the world, with a number of world-class airlines, with whom I retain very amicable links. I am, therefore, in a very good position to understand what is happening at the cutting edge of the international air transport industry and in an equally good position to understand where SQ is going wrong.

Finally, you may have noticed that I sharply differentiate between the shortly to leave flight operations regime which has blighted the airline for so long and the new regime, which I have great hopes of and will most certainly be willing to support and work with.

Regards Insider107

Mad Dog 11

As far as I am aware, all the Latin American pilots in SQ are very well regarded by all of their peers. I think one or two of the postings, which I have noticed on this thread, have been more to do with rudimentary English skills, rather than nationality/professional ability.

28th May 2001, 13:14
Well "thrust"

Some 'volunteer', some "got duped". But at the end of the day, Expats always get to 'escape' after a few years. Plus a 744 / 777 rating. So now such a bad deal...
Question is, "when to bail out"???

28th May 2001, 19:51
Weightandbalance wrote:

"I think that instead of attacking them you should work together to change whatever you don’t like in your company, look at the examples of Delta and Lufthansa pilots that is the only way."

To compare Delta and Lufthansa pilot's actions having changed or about to change what they don't like to SIA pilot's predicament proves that weightandbalance indeed does not understand the complex currents that flow beneath the Singapore Airlines surface.

However he does understand that industrial action does not exist in SIA or for that matter in Singapore.

I am puzzled, his two statements contradict one other.

29th May 2001, 05:50
By reading the Weightandbalance article I have the feeling that our friend got a little excited and also missed some of the points made by Insider. To state that Insider needs to see a “wider picture” is the same as saying that mister D.P. needs to change his formula for his champagne. Over the last few month it has become very obvious that Insider not only has the blessing of a good pen, but also showed a very clear understanding and balanced view of the wide variety of problems facing SQ.
The fact that Weightandbalance sums up a list of technical aeronautical accomplishments shows that he might be a fantastic driver , but misses the very point that Insider, Gladiator, and many others have made in this forum over the years. “ I can teach my 15 year old neighbors son , to fly a A340, 747-400, or any other wonderful piece of flying aluminum in a matter of days, as long as he pushes the right buttons on the right panels, the problems start in managing the “wider picture”, and it is obvious that it isn’t Insider who fails to see the wider picture, it is weightandbalance who needs the wider view.
And this brings me to my second point, where I have to disagree with Insider and for the first and probably only time agree with John Barnes on his view of the possible opening for expats in Management. Although I fully understand the reservations that Insider has with showing interest in management, and also understand his feeling that it isn’t the politically correct thing to do, I believe that Insider should try to come to terms with these reservations and offer his help and insight in the Flt Ops department . With the proper changes and with the communicational writing qualities that Insider has shown over the last few months, his presence on the fourth floor could be a very important and positive influence for the widely diverse group of pilots in SIA. Although I am afraid that we are still on the path of self destruction, and basically nothing has changed in the present management, I still hope that some day some big changes are made and that this job in SQ could be one of the better ones. And to end on a positive note, I promise insider the same thing that Barnes said: You go to the fourth floor, I will buy a Webster and never ask you what all these beautiful words actually mean when your FSI’s trickle down in our mail boxes.

29th May 2001, 09:38
Thrust !
I agree with you 101%.
Funny that you should use my term! A dump!
No humane values. All FLUFF. What more can I say? Third world country ethics. Double standards.

29th May 2001, 11:22
Perhaps not a racist Thrust but definitely a very angry men!!

John Barnes
29th May 2001, 13:07
Just woke up and all this activity!! Correct me if I am wrong Farside, but wasn’t your nickname in your previous company “The Rotweiler” and wasn’t it this non diplomatic confrontational behaviour that caused some minor upsets in the Standards Department in which you were active. You could perhaps join hands with Insider and where his diplomatic overtures might fail you can come in with some “Rotweiler” barks !! Could be a mighty combination and a new management technique, and known that you were not exactly your standard expat brownnoser in the Middle East or here this combined force could be a breath of fresh air , something needed on the fourth floor. So instead of standing on the sideline and pumping Insider you should fill out the management application as well or are you afraid to come out in the open??

29th May 2001, 16:29
Perhaps you are correct Farside. Hope I didn't come over too heavy but some things cannot be left unsaid. Too many people come to the "Expat Lifestyle" job with their eyes shut.

Sorry if I offend some readers but sometimes the truth hurts.

fire wall
29th May 2001, 19:37
John and .88 of a brain, sorry but you guys are somewhat removed from the mainstream opinion. The question needs to be asked why? Management or potential man. duties?
A very good friend 10k + and 4K+ widebody command just back from 777 interview most disgusted with sim format by very "anti" local trng capt...why is this necessary? Conduct unbecoming from a considerate human being let alone someone who is supposed to be an advertisment for the company.
Yet again pls do tell why we should all be better off at SQ....I am down on laughs of late.

30th May 2001, 04:28
Thrust, you just hit the nail on the head. Spot on description.

30th May 2001, 04:42
Firewall you are absolutely correct, and I know that these “anti” tactics are used by some of our “less” professional instructors on the simulator. This forum is the best place to expose these tactics, warn future applicants, and then hopefully make it possible for SQ to correct these individuals. I must however admit that this is not the only company using these scare tactics, but again this should never be an excuse. If SIA is serious in trying to improve their battered image and also wants to attract good quality crewmembers they have to asses the present training, checking and interview culture in SQ. I had produced a long article some months ago for the internal use of SQ, which was , without my knowledge , copied on PPRUNE and which addressed exactly these problems that you just mentioned. So far nothing has changed and that on itself is a very worrying trend , but I am still an optimist and still believe that with the right drastic changes this could be one of the better jobs.

Thrust thank you for your reaction.

John Barnes Woeoeoefff Woeoefff Groooooowlll

30th May 2001, 19:06
Interesting Staff travel stuff for SIA members and all considering joining.

From Star Alliance “Network” magazine, May 2001. A digest of staff travel arrangements made by member airlines, with the notable exception of newly joined member, Singapore Airlines.


Z-Fares: Your Ticket to the World.

As airline employees we have a lot in common – an intricate knowledge of the industry, an enhanced cultural awareness that comes with meeting customers and colleagues from around the world. We’ve turned packing a suitcase into an art form. We’re better at geography than most. Above all else, we love to travel. Since the outset, Star Alliance, specifically the Industry Discount Travel (IDT) team, has worked towards providing member-carrier employees with greater access to the world. There’s also the notion that seamless is as seamless does. The more we travel on each other’s airlines, the more we learn about our partners’ products, services and how the customer experiences Star Alliance travel.

But putting together a Star Alliance travel policy hasn’t been easy. Taxation issues, cultural differences and the varied members-carrier travel policies make complete harmonization difficult. Instead, similar to our approach with customers, IDT has tried to respect the cultural uniqueness of each carrier.

“We want a common employee travel policy, but it has to take into account airline-specific issues such as taxation and the extension of benefits” explains Vicki Benoit, Manager, Industry Travel Air Canada and a member of the Star Alliance IDT committee. “Right now there is a wide array of bilateral agreements which work off basic principles and Z-Fares are the basis for personal travel.”

Z-Fares are mileage-based fares offered by over 130 carriers worldwide. They are segregated into eight distance-related bands with three different fare levels for each band; low (ZL), medium (ZM) and high (ZH). These rates are consistent across the globe. The difference for Star Alliance member-carrier employees is that for most personal travel, we pay the lowest Z- Fare available (ZL) in each of the eight bands for employee, spouse and dependent children travel and ZH for travel companions and parent (employee must travel with them). For example, for a standby ticket from Chicago to Frankfurt employees will pay $41 USD (ZL) while a parent/travel partner will have to pay $105 USD.

“One of the objectives of IDT is to make Z-Fares available to all Star Alliance carrier employees,” says Joseph Berktold, Head of Industry & Interline Travel, Lufthansa and IDT chairperson. “While we haven’t quite achieved that, we’ve made significant inroads and a lot of employees are taking advantage of the benefits. We’re also working on developing a system that gives Star Alliance member-carrier employees priority over other employees, bearing in mind that the employees of the operating airline get top priority.” At Lufthansa alone, Berktold says more than 300,000 Z-Fare tickets have been purchased by employees for travel on other Star Alliance carriers.

The IDT has also developed a common dress code as well as a number of bilateral agreements relating to duty and business travel. While a condensed outline of the basics and standards is provided below, please be sure to check with your own carrier’s travel department at all times when seeking clarification or purchasing tickets. Granted, it’s a work in progress. But there’s no doubt that as members of Star Alliance, the world truly is your oyster. Now all you have to do is pack your bags….

Basics and Standards (Abbreviated)

Private Travel

After a minimum of 6 months service, Employee, Retiree of any Star Alliance airline, spouse and children under 25 are eligible to unlimited standby travel based on low zone fares (ZL) in Economy/business class. Parents will be eligible but will have to pay high zone fares (ZH).



I wish!

5th Jun 2001, 20:48
No signs SQ will adopt similar policy?