Ryanair to be given "preferential treatment" by SNN ATC

[rubik101]

Shock-horror-exclusive from the Irish Independent today.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ai...al-1303673.html

It seems that Ryanair have arranged to obtain their ATC clearance PRIOR to start up! Well, for heavan's sake, how absolutely unfair and bullying is that?

Not only that but they are getting their DEPARTURE instructions prior to lining up. Goodness me, how bad is that?

And as for getting 'track miles' on contact with ATC on arrival, well how despicable and underhand is that? Bounders, all of them. Typical Ryanair bullying tactics. Shame on them.

Does this idiot McConnell really believe that what he has written here is worthy of even one square centimeter of paper? The man is a moron and as for 'exclusive', well, excuse me, but my breaking wind has more interest than his so-called journalism.

But then he is typical of his type so I suppose I should not be so surprised.

Sick and tired of the media and their obvious ignorance of all things aeronautic?

So am I.

[BOAC]

Psst! Does he know about calling for start up while on finals to land at a certain busy Spanish airfield? Yes, it worked:ok: - hang on - there's someone at the door......................

[Denti]

Not only in spain, worked in munich too if they had one of those more than 1 hour startup delay queues in winter. Haven't tried it in 2 years now though due to the lack of a thorough winter.

[His dudeness]

Only yesterday I was given remaining track miles. Does that mean I´m flying for Ryanair without knowing it? :}

[doniedarko]

What a scoop :ugh: but whatever you do don't investgate the rendition flights thru' SNN (alla diego garcia) cause we have 'assurances's' to !:= and after all their might actually be a story there as opposed to a memo from 3 years ago

[fireflybob]

Perhaps we should wait for when ATC gets privatised.

You can imagine the menu...."For atis press 1, for track miles to go press 2, for landing clearance press 3, to speak to one of our customer service agents please press 4 and stay on the line...and then "All our lines are busy but please stay on the line to talk to an agent - in the meantime here are details of our latest offers.....etc.

[JustaFew]

In that case I'll pass them departure clearance after take-off, track miles after landing, and let them guess which stand to park on.:)

[Lafyar Cokov]

Hang on - maybe the journo's name is 'Daniel McConnell-Exclusive' - I think they missed out the hyphen!

What a co-incidence to be born under that name - and be a journalist!!

[DFC]

An airline has to specifically request a procedure that reduces head-in time and distractions during taxi and also has to request a procedure to have the clearance delivered in time for it to be properly briefed and if necessary questioned / confirmed before entering the runway in use.

Why do such basic safe operating techniques have to be requested?

Regards,

DFC

[PPRuNe Radar]

The 'procedures' sound very much like best practice, so a note asking controllers to do it for all airlines would get rid of any perceived preferential treatment.

An airline has to specifically request a procedure that reduces head-in time and distractions during taxi and also has to request a procedure to have the clearance delivered in time for it to be properly briefed and if necessary questioned / confirmed before entering the runway in use.

Why do such basic safe operating techniques have to be requested?

An ATC authority has to specifically request a procedure whereby the harp adorned airline files the correct directional level for some of its incorrectly filed flights. This reduces ATCO 'head in strips' time, RT conversations about the actual correct directional level, telephone co-ordinations, and flight data inputs. The plans are updated for a short while but then revert back to being filed incorrectly.

Why do such basic safe operating techniques and compliance with IFR rules have to be requested ? :p

[esb12]

Eye yay yay comment '' someone is leaking selective material to paint an untrue picture''
This is a false statement. It could only be selective material if there was a selection of material to chose from. There was only one memo issued to control staff about operational preferences of airlines . That one memo pertaining to Whineair. It is incomprehensible that an airline and service provider can have such an exclusive relationship as to undermine and shaft airline competitors,one of which has given shannon airport and the mid west region no less than 50 years of loyal service and are essential to the economic growth of that region. I think that a thorough investigation of the eye yay yay and whineair relationship is imminent. It is a scandalous affair.

[Reggy Stirred]

"Let me state very clearly, there is no cosy relationship with Ryanair. Someone is leaking selective material to paint an untrue picture. Any suggestion of a cosy relationship is total and utter nonsense."

Just like there was no shortage of ATCOs either,:}:}

Let's see.
1. IAA support rIAAnair in aftermath of very critical Dispatches and Prime Time TV programmes.

2. rIAAnair receive info from a source at the LRC talks (Guess who?)

3. rIAAnair get a letter from the IAA regarding the details of the dispute

4. rIAAnair come out and publicly support the IAA when ATCO's threatened to strike.

5. IAA did not EVER issue a similar memo for ANY OTHER AIRLINE.

6. IAA take rIAAnair's side in EVERY complaint made about the airline by a pilot or by Irish Airline Pilots Association or by BALPA.

Well, that just about sorts it then. IAA are right. No cozy relationship at all. Nothing to see. Move along there folks. Don't worry. Repeat, nothing to see.

[Ollie268]

Hi everyone, ive recently got my fATPL and am doing an MCC/JOT on the 737. The reason im saying this is because i DONT have any affiliation with Ryanair at all but seems to me like whats suggested is a good idea?
Surely if you got departure clearences asap it gives more time to plan / brief...etc in whats already a busy environment? Also during my IFR training we were told to request track miles to plan for descent and indeed in my MCC training we've been told to request track miles to get a better picture about what to expect, ensure situational awareness and give a better brief?
It sounds like a good idea to me, am i missing something??



(ps-dont shoot me down, only putting my POV forward!) :)

[wiccan]

An airline has to specifically request a procedure that reduces head-in time and distractions during taxi and also has to request a procedure to have the clearance delivered in time for it to be properly briefed and if necessary questioned / confirmed before entering the runway in use.

Why do such basic safe operating techniques have to be requested?

Regards,

DFC
Out of interest [full decode so that DFC can understand the following]
It is SOP at Manchester [and AFAIK] ALL U.K. Airports to pass ATC "Clearance".......Standard Instrument Departure...[SID] and "Squawk"....... Secondary Surveillance Radar code....which identifies the aeroplane to ATC
That position is called [funnily enuff as "Clearance Delivery"........
And EVERY Aeroplane, whether Private, Corporate or indeed Airline gets the same level of service.
As for Appoach, again every aeroplane gets the same service...
Number in traffic......Track miles....
You know...the "PROFESSIONAL" approach to ATC
Crawl back into your shell, and read your "Muppets Book of ATC"
Blessed Be

[rubik101]

To wiccan and others, the point of the opening post was to highlight the sheer idiocy of the author of the article in the Independent newspaper in trying to assert that what is standard practice in ATC/Airline operation was somehow seen as a unique and favorable arrangement with Ryanair. He, the so-called journalist, seemed to think that this piece of information was an 'exclusive' scoop.
It was a badly done and amateur botch of a completely non newsworthy event.
There is no need to pursue the item any further. Let it die a natural death!

[COMICALIAM]

There is no need to pursue the item any further. Let it die a natural death!
No chance
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-nX6g148mA:}

[wiccan]

To wiccan and others, the point of the opening post was to highlight the sheer idiocy of the author of the article in the Independent newspaper
Agree...
But looking at some of the "amateur/ATC experts" posting on here, I felt the need to expand
I have expanded, and the "amatuers, et al" have kept quiet
Hopefully, as you say. This is the end.
bb

[DFC]

Out of interest [full decode so that DFC can understand the following]
It is SOP at Manchester [and AFAIK] ALL U.K. Airports to pass ATC "Clearance".......Standard Instrument Departure...[SID] and "Squawk"....... Secondary Surveillance Radar code....which identifies the aeroplane to ATC
That position is called [funnily enuff as "Clearance Delivery"........
And EVERY Aeroplane, whether Private, Corporate or indeed Airline gets the same level of service.
As for Appoach, again every aeroplane gets the same service...
Number in traffic......Track miles....
You know...the "PROFESSIONAL" approach to ATC
Crawl back into your shell, and read your "Muppets Book of ATC"

Perhaps you should check at all those airports where there is no Clearance delivery positionand see what they do. Some of us professionals remember the debate regarding Edinburgh and the work it took to get the basic info such as SSR code etc passed before taxi.

Some of us still operate from airports that do not for various reasons (often having to obtain a release from the ACC sector) pass the clearance until lined up.

There are safety issues with such operations which require special consideration.

Perhaps it was wrong to say;

An airline has to specifically request a procedure that reduces head-in time and distractions during taxi and also has to request a procedure to have the clearance delivered in time for it to be properly briefed and if necessary questioned / confirmed before entering the runway in use.

Why do such basic safe operating techniques have to be requested?

I should have said -

Why hasn't every safety concious airline operating at that location requested the same safety enhancing procedures?

Regards,

DFC

[Empty Cruise]

Radar...

You don't actually suggest filing SNN-LPL @ 270 i.s.o. 290???

Oh my God, you rebellious free-thinkers - with people like you on the loose :}, what will the world come to???

[philipint]

It seems that some posters are missing the point of the debate. It's about preferential treatment, not questioning whether or not pilots should receive such helpful information for flight planning. The notice in itself demonstrates good operating practices between service provider and customer.However, if the instruction was given to air traffic controllers to give this level of service to only one particular airline then serious questions would need to be asked.I wonder if Dermot Mannion (aer lingus) chief exec was aware of this apparent ''close '' relationship between service provider and customer. Could it have been a contributing factor to Aer lingus' withdrawal from the Shannon to Heathrow route?
It would certainly tighten the lips of Mannion's critics. I hear that he is also contemplating a complete withdrawal of transatlantic services in the Autumn. One can only hope that this latest revelation doesn't influence his decision. Shannon airport has always struggled for business. A ruthless low fares airline, monopoly of Shannon would not be good for the airport's long term developement.

[DFC]

It seems that some posters are missing the point of the debate. It's about preferential treatment

I do not think that requesting that ATC provide what is the industry best practice in terms of service (the timing of passing clearances etc to avoid unnecessary distractions during flight time) is in any way requesting preferential treatment.

It is simply asking ATC to do something that will enhance safety.

If it is accepted as best practice then the question is not about preferential treatment it is about why it a) in the absence of any good reason for not using that practice it had to be requested and b) why other operators at the same location had not recognised the same issue and made similar requests.

There was nothing stopping the ATC provider taking the proposal on board and on seeing the safety benifits providing the same service to all flights.

Requesting preferential teatment is like asking that when two aircraft are ready to push / taxi at the same time that airline A will always get to go first or when two airline flights are inbound with the same arrival time that airline A will be put first. That is getting preferential treatment not asking for something to enhance safety while at the same time having only a good effect (increased safety for all) on other flights.

If I se something that can be improved and make a report with a suggested improvement am I requesting preferential treatment?

--------------

As for preferential treatment - airlines have contracts with the airports regarding services. It is up to the airline and the airport to hammer out the contract and all the terms therein. Just because one airline manages to negotiate a better deal that the next one is not a reason for crying preferential treatment. It may be a reson for asking why the other airline's team could not obtain the same or even a better deal?

If you pay £50 per month for your internet connection and I manage to negotiate the exact same connection for £5 am I getting preferential treatment or am I simply reaping the benifits of negotiating a better deal than you managed?

Regards,

DFC

[Robot1]

As for preferential treatment - airlines have contracts with the airports regarding services. It is up to the airline and the airport to hammer out the contract and all the terms therein. Just because one airline manages to negotiate a better deal that the next one is not a reason for crying preferential treatment.

However in this case the alleged preferential treatment is from the ATC provider (IAA), not the airport authority. ATC services are a monopoly, there is no alternative provider. Airport services are not, there are other aerodromes. Monopoly service providers must play fair and equitably.

[chiglet]

Requesting preferential teatment is like asking that when two aircraft are ready to push / taxi at the same time that airline A will always get to go first or when two airline flights are inbound with the same arrival time that airline A will be put first. That is getting preferential treatment not asking for something to enhance safety while at the same time having only a good effect (increased safety for all) on other flights.


Taking point one first....surely it depends on just where on the airfield they are.......
eg...Stand 17 at Manchester and Stand14 at Manch
S17 asks for push and start 10 secs before S14 does the same. S18 and S16 are waiting push....but 14 is clear. No preference but sensible ATC
Point 2.
When I worked at Brum we had an inbound from the North who wanted Rwy15 and one from the South who wanted Rwy 33. Theone from the North was too high too fast. He was told to either take up the hold or continue down wind for Rwy33. He elected the latter but still complained. Where preferential treatmen does occur is when the landing rwy is [say] westerly and Airline Q comes in from the west and is given an approach to the easterly rwy to the detriment of other a/f users
watpiktch

[PPRuNe Radar]

Radar...

You don't actually suggest filing SNN-LPL @ 270 i.s.o. 290???

Oh my God, you rebellious free-thinkers - with people like you on the loose , what will the world come to???

But that would be filing a correct directional level ... which wasn't my point.

Specifically I was getting at the fact that rIAAnair frequently file Westbound cruising levels for flights from Dublin to Scandinavia. They are heading East, so why do that ?? All it results in is more workload for ATC to correct their basic error ... time after time after time.

[chiglet]

time after time.

Nice song that...:E
watpiktch

[radar head]

This Daniel McConnell is a typical example of a second rate lazy journalist. If he ever made an effort to research his subject properly he would realise that departures are given their ATC clearances when they call for start-up or before in a lot of cases. Departure clearances are given before line-up because the last thing a tower controller wants is a pilot discussing a clearance while sitting on the runway with another aircraft bearing down on them. The idea is that all this is done before the departure gets near the runway so they can line-up and go with minimum delay.
Apologies to all professional aviators for this Ladybird type explanition. It is intended for Mr. McConnell's level of understanding.