Need help with PPL decision. Denham airport or somewhere close, experience required

[midiman]

Hi I am looking to gain a JAR PPL and need some help. I live near Denham airport in Bucks and recently made some enquiries there.

Both schools were friendly and helpful, but the biggest factor in my decision will be cost.

Cabair have nice planes, newly painted 4 seat Warriors.
Pilot Centre has C152,s that look a bit worn from the outside.

Cabair are charging £10,100 for 50hrs all inclusive.
Flight Centre is charging £5890 for 45hrs instruction

What do you think is best?

I could pay for either out right, but this is my life savings!!!.

Additionally travelling to the US seems an nice option but I can only take two weeks holiday at time. This is my employers policy so I am restricted there.

What about other schools in the area? Do you have any experience with these?

Booker Aerodrome (Wycombe)

White Waltham (Maidenhead)

I think the BA flight school in Wycombe and waltham both use Warriors, but dont know what their JAR PPL costs are.

Thanks

[flyvirgin]

Dont go with Cabair,Once they have got your Money they dont care.

[dontpressthat]

Bit of a bold statement flyvirgin...
I guess by that you are including all cabair schools.. been to them all have we?:=

DPT

[Daysleeper]

Pilot Centre have an excellent rep.

Regardless of what the outside of the aircraft look like its the quality of the instruction that counts and you'd be hard pushed to do better than Eva at Pilot Ctr.

[Cusco]

Dare I suggest you consider the U.S. option?

Whack off the training in 3 weeks (throw a sickie or take unpaid) then have a nice lazy time back in the UK summer spending your savings consolidating and getting used to the UK way of doing things.

By the autumn you'll be a real pilot and still have change....

Cusco;)

[midiman]

What savings can be made in the US?

And who are the main schools out there offering good packages?

Thanks

[Stevemcmli]

Take a trial lesson at both Cabair and TPC. My money's on TPC. I'm a stude there and I believe they are the best cost/quality combination for miles. The instructors I've flown with are excellent teachers and the aircraft are reliable.

Aircraft appearance is important but don't be overly impressed by shiney paintwork, many aircraft (152's and Warriors) in UK club fleets are 20+ years old.

[wsmempson]

British Airways Flying Club at High Wycombe has immaculate aircraft and 1st class instruction - out of choice, I'd recommend Dick Thurbin, who has a common-sense based, relaxed style of teaching.

I tried Cabair at Elstree before I learnt with BAFC and came to some pretty straightforward conclusions about Cabair: Not all bad, just too many young boys wearing gold braid, building hours at my expense for my liking.

[A and C]

There are two very good clubs in your area that I could recomend, The BAFC at Wycombe or WLAC at White Waltham. the BAFC would be at the top of my list.

I don,t know The Pilot Centre a Denham so I cant comment on them however comments above seem to be favourable.

As for Cabair they seem to get most of there business from "new starts" who are totaly new to aviation, this way they can make a lot of money from add on charges and the poor victim ...... sorry student has not got the nouse to know that other clubs don,t charge for such things.

Make a quick phone call to BAFC or WLAC and ask what the TOTAL cost of an hours instructional flight is............. then ask the same question of Cabair, make sure that you get the whole answer there will be a base price + instructor time + landing fees+ VAT.

You will soon see that the BAFC price will seem more expensive at first however once the Cabair "add on,s" are taken into account you will find the BAFC or WLAC to be the best deal.

I have left quality of instruction and aircraft maintenance standards out of this post as I don't have time to open that can of worms.

[midiman]

I may opt for Denham pilot centre.

Warrior instruction seems to be more costly than C152.

[172driver]

One option you might also consider is going to Spain. There are a couple of schools there that teach in English. You won't have the wx problems most studes seem to encounter (and perennially moan about on PPrune....) in this country.

[midiman]

Yeah Spain would be good and a nice climate.

I have just booked a trial lesson with the Pilot Centre in Denham.

[cjhants]

midiman, if you look back at old posts, you will see many examples of people who have paid up front and lived to regret it. things can easily change during your training, you may decide after a few hours that its not for you, or your circumstances may change. if you cant afford to lose the whole lot, dont pay up front!

i am a member at WLAC and so a bit biased, but its a great school, and certainly worth a look.

[midiman]

Thanks.

WLAC looks good but I am nearer to Denham.

How much is a JAR PPL at WLAC?

What is the grass strip like?

[cjhants]

the whole cost depends on how long you need to complete the course. 45 hrs is the minimum, most take a little longer, mine was 50 hours over about 14 months. if you do well enough to pas in 45 it will obviously cost less than 65.

the grass is generally good at WW if a little bumpy in places. it is hardly ever closed due to waterlogging, and they have 3 fairly long runways. if denham is better for you by all means go there, but my advice would be to pay as you go. you then have the option to change schools if it suits you, and your money is earning you interest in your bank rather than making you nothing in the schools bank, and its not at risk (unless its in northern rock - no, lets not go there!).

[Dysonsphere]

WW is good you have to join the club (theres a student rate) but the plus side is no landing fees (free to members) plenty of aircraft and with the RAF triangle of runways few days lost to strong crosswinds. Mind you the grass is a bit bumpy in places.

[denhamflyer]

Denham (Pilot Centre) is definitely a good training school. Excellent instructors and they dont overcharge. It IS worth using the "block booking" scheme. You dont pay the whole amount, but pay for a block e.g. £750 at a time and this give considerable discount. They are a long term family business (they own the airfield). However only do this if you are going to be flying regularly. Whilst the old C152s look tired they are excellent training aircraft and are very cost effective.

Cheers

DF

PS. I learnt there so I am biased :ok:

[richatom]

Ask the schools what incentives the instructors have to give you decent groundschool and briefings/debriefings.

If the instructors are paid by the flying hour, you will get your ground school in the air - not a great way to learn.

If the instructors are paid a salary, they don't have a disincentive to spend time with you on the ground.

Also, why are you doing a PPL? If it is a life-goal, and for fun, and you are not in a hurry, then go with a pay as you go flying club with good people and nice atmosphere. If, however, it is first rung towards a professional flying career, then best do your PPL at a recognised FTO. You will be trained to a much higher standard and will be ahead of the curve when it comes to your CPL and IR.

[TheOddOne]

If, however, it is first rung towards a professional flying career, then best do your PPL at a recognised FTO. You will be trained to a much higher standard and will be ahead of the curve when it comes to your CPL and IR.

Both of the schools we're talking about here are 'recognised FTOs'. They both allocate instructor time to provide adequate ground briefing and de-briefing - for every hour allocated for flight, there's another hour allocated for ground work. Both schools train to a very high standard, whatever the aspirations of the student.

Before finally choosing, why not have a trial lesson with each?

One other point. Increasingly these days we find that some students simply won't fit in the C152 either by means of physical size or mass. The school with the PA28 Warrior IIIs might be the only game in town for some people...

TheOddOne

[richatom]

I am surprised to learn WLAC has FTO status - I thought they were an aeroclub? I believe Cabair is an FTO - though my info is not really up to date as I haven't lived in UK for a long time!

I did my PPL at an aeroclub and I found that when I started my CPL at an FTO I was way behind other students who had done their PPL abinitio at the same FTO. They were almost at CPL level already and breezed through the course.

[Flieger8]

I've recently started PPL training with the Pilot Centre in January,and so far I'm very satisfied with the instructors and the aircraft. Whilst the aircraft are not new and shiny like Cabairs, this is more than made up by the friendly instructors and club like atmosphere and a lack of 16 year old instructors with white shirts and gold braid. TPC includes landing fees in their training charges. Cabair does not. From anecdotal comments I've heard, quite a number of the Cabair instructors did their training with TPC.

I also did some research on other flying schools around the M25 and looked at Cabair Elstree, BAFC and Firecrest @ Elstree.

My suggestion would be to visit the clubs your considering and talk to the instructors, which will help you make up your own mind

[midiman]

I have booked a trial flight at Denham for next week. In the end I decided to go with the TPC.

Cabair were very friendly at Denham but sadly their charges will escalate beyond what I am willing to pay.

I did also notice some young lads walking around in white shirts. Surely they where the paperboys earning some extra money for the weekend.

[Irish_Stu]

Be very careful if you decide to go to a foreign school to do your PPL. If you're limited to two weeks holidays, I'd say forget it. I went to a school in Florida In Nov/Dec 2007 to do a 21 day PPL and left after 6 weeks with 26hrs on my logbook. And I'm currently trying to get the remainder of my money back, with very little success.
Don't make a schoolboy error like I did, DON'T pay up front, and pay by credit card. I can't stress that highly enough.

And as for the guy who says that the standard of training will be much higher at an FTO than a local flying club, sorry but I don't agree. Most of the instructors at my flying club are well experienced commercial pilots who instruct on their days off. The standard of instruction is very high.
Yesterday when my lesson was cancelled due to 50 knot winds my instructor was happy to sit with me for hours and go over stuff that I was unsure of. And this has always been the case, even instructors who I've never flown with always have the time to answer questions. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not sure whether that would happen at a bigger busier "flashy" FTO.

Stu

[betterfromabove]

I would absolutely agree with Daysleeper.

Started my PPL with TPC &, due to work, had to move elsewhere. Have since flown at loads of other places & few in the same league. Friendly but professional, which is exactly what you want from a club if you ask me.

Yes, the C152's a bit worn (seem to remember the PA28's were much better), but it's the instruction that counts & will ring in your ears for years to come.

PS. C152's are meant to look that way, right (if you' been bounced as many times as they have, you'd look that way too ;))

[Bandit650]

Just to add my 2p worth...I have over 230hrs and hired a/c from most of the FTO's metioned - extensively from WLAC and TPC as I live equi-distance between the two.

I can tell you now you will be hard pushed to find a better run FTO than TPC at Denham. The instructors are excellent ( had an IMC refresher with an exc-Conc pilot last year), the atmosphere is friendly, the aircraft are in better than average condition IMHO (for example the C172 I fly had a new engine fitted last year), and there are regular club events (e.e fly-outs to France and so on).

You pay £300 for the privilege of setting foot in the door at WLAC, the instructors lack the experience of those at TPC, and the rates are very high - so not good value really. Although the facilities are fantastic, there is a bit of an air of elitism floating around the clubhouse which prevails to an even greater extent at BAFC. TPC has it just about right, its an excellent flight training organisation - but has a friendly non-assuming atmosphere.

I won't even bother discussing Cabair. They are the Starbucks of FTO's..on every every airfield, charge the earth, no atmosphere, but yeah - the variety of coffee on offer is impressive and they have comfy sofas.

[Duchess_Driver]

Just to say.....

.....that the Ex Conc Pilot (actually a flight engineer) hasn't returned from more northerly climes for this winter season. Much missed!

.....can only think of one current Denham School of Flying Instructor (Cabair at Denham) who was trained by TPC, but there have been others in the past!

.....led to believe that there is actually now a Starbucks (the coffee shop, not Cabair!) at Oxford

Will resist the temptation to comment further, as most of what I would have said has already been said in prior posts.

DD