Flying in gusty winds

[PompeyPaul]

Hello,

If you have gusty conditions, but it's straight down the runway, do you still fly ? Let's say 240/10G20 would you take off from runway 24 ?

Also would you perform a flapless landing ? I'm thinking PA28 here.

[SkyHawk-N]

I'd certainly fly. Not sure about flapless, I'd use 10 or 20 degrees depending on the runway. I add about 50% of the gust speed to my approach speed and will be prepared for input of power if required.

[airmuster]

Pompey Paul

No problems in the Cherokee or any other "plane"

Check runway length for flapless though.

One consideration........ how many hours and hours on type do you have?

10 - 20 knots is normal here.

[PompeyPaul]

I have 60 hours, 58 of which are on type and am fairly current (5 hours flown in last 30 days).

As I move away from my flight school I find myself having to make more decisions, and tomorrow is forecast to be gusty.

On reflection, if it does turn out to be gusty, I think I'll leave it.

[FullyFlapped]

I have 60 hours, 58 of which are on type and am fairly current (5 hours flown in last 30 days).

As I move away from my flight school I find myself having to make more decisions, and tomorrow is forecast to be gusty.

On reflection, if it does turn out to be gusty, I think I'll leave it.
... and on the face of it, that shows common sense and good airmanship.

However, I'll guarantee you two things. Firstly, when you've a few more hours under your belt, you won't be making the same decision (I'm talking of winds as you describe in your first post) : and secondly, the only way to get to that position is through experience.

Therefore, perhaps a better bet would be to book an instructor for tomorrow, and have a look at these conditions? There's nothing like real world experience, and if you "get lucky" you'll then know what it feels like as well as what to do about it.

Anytime now, the usual gaggle of "hell boy, that ain't wind where ah cum from, mah dawg meks more wind then thayut" idiots will show up ... ignore them. You've made a good call, and they're mostly full of p*ss and 270/45G70 anyway ! ;)

[Johnm]

Go flying with an instructor in some gusty winds to build up confidence. Do cross winds as well if you can.

I'll happily fly my Archer in winds up to about 35kts after that it's quicker by car:\

[BlueRobin]

Our SOP for qualified pilots in the Warrior is 35 knots inc the gust, plus no more than 17 knots crosswind again inc the gust.

There's no valid reason imho to reduce flap.

[SkyHawk-N]

There's no valid reason imho to reduce flap.

You should really try and do what the POH says. I don't have a PA-28 POH to hand but my Cessna one recommends less flap in gusty conditions. I suppose there is more risk of ballooning(?), just a guess. I've also heard the reason is that there is more chance of a go-around in gusty conditions and that is safer with less flap, again I don't know how true this is. Using less flap works for me.

Have a look at the PA-28 POH and see what that says.

[BackPacker]

Have a look at the PA-28 POH and see what that says.

This is from the PA-28-161 Cadet:

In high wind conditions, particularly in strong crosswinds, it may be desirable to approach the ground at higher than normal speeds with partial or no flaps.

Helpful, not?

[Zulu Alpha]

Generally landing in a strong/gusting wind is no more difficult than in still conditions if it is down the runway.

The headwind reduces your groundspeed so things happen more slowly and your ground roll is much less.

Gusting conditions do make the aircraft rock about a bit hence the suggestion about adding 10kts and only 2 stages of flap (Assuming you have 3). This will make the ailerons more effective.

I think it is good to practice flying in these conditions, talk to your instructor first or take an instructor with you if unsure, or just do circuits at your home base, don't worry about going around if you are not happy.

I'm sure you will find that you manage just fine and the experience will expand your envelope. The wind will often be unfriendly so mastering it will stand you in good stead for the future.

ZA

[jamestkirk]

Remember in gusty conditions, you may encounter winshear. If that windshear is of the minus speed value, flaps may be a good idea. This is due the the reduction in stall speed giving you a larger margin for error. This stuff I am sure you know.

But, extending flaps reduces you stability in the lateral plane. It is alot easier for a gust of wind to displace the aircraft in roll with 40 degrees of flap, than zero degrees. As you lower the flaps, the C of G moves rearwards and inwards (towards the root). If you held a ruler at each end and asked someone to try and move it at the tips, it would be alot more difficult than holding the ruler in the centre and asking the same. It's the same principle with the wing.

I used to get my students to fly a crosswind/gusty approach with full flap and the next circuit with zero to experience the difference in stability. (dual of course, before someone pipes up).

Thats the reason that in a crosswind and especially if its gusty that you approach a little faster with a lower flap setting. Although, some aircraft may vary and in such things as the Europa you do not have a flap choice.

In the wind conditions you gave, remember to add you gust factor to the approach speed. Its half the gust factor so add 5 knots. Its a rule of thumb but useful.Forgive me if you already know that.

[PompeyPaul]

As it turned out it was a lovely day for flying, CAVOK with some wind, but nothing outrageous. None of the TAFs mentioned gusting conditions, but I was slightly nervous that Farnborough sounded quiet (did all of those pilots know something I didn't ?). Anyway, it was a lovely brimble out and about.

Athough one of my 2 non-flying pax said they were suprised how easy flying was, it looked like I was driving a bus!

[DFC]

None of the TAFs mentioned gusting conditions, but I was slightly nervous that Farnborough sounded quiet

Don't forget that a wind from 230 at 15 knots gusting to 24 knots will be reported in METAR and forecasted in the TAF as;

23015Kts

The gust is only mentioned when it reaches 10 knots above the average.

Thus you can have the windspeed varying from 0 to 24 knots on a regular basis but provided the mean wind is 15Kt then it is simply 15Kt that is reported.

Now looking at directional variation, that is only reported when the variation is 60 degrees or more.

So with a wind of 23015Kt could actually be a wind that is 21005Kt one second and 25024Kt the next.

Overall the weather can change quite a lot without the requirements for a new TAF to be issued or for a special report. Thus, there is no substitute for simply looking out the window and ensuring that you are taking everything into account and crosschecking what is expected when pilot in command of the flight and not passing control of the operation to the metman in a nice warm office.

Even the oldest grey-haired B747 Captain's still check the windsock before rolling or landing (when it is visible!).

Regards,

DFC

[PompeyPaul]

Thanks DFC, I didn't realise that was the case. I did check the wind scok before departure, and also on return, and whilst it was moving a little, it wasn't flailing around.

The thing that made me feel better is as I walked out to aircraft @ 13:30 (gusting by the Met office was reported @ 12:00) althougb it wasn't light & variable I couldn't feel anything significant on my face.

I agree, there is nothing quite like being stood in the field to see the weather, it's much better than a METAR.

Still, why was Farnborough so quiet today ?

[Zulu Alpha]

I agree with the last two posts. When I had 50-200 hrs I often cancelled a booking based on the forecast. As often as not I would then sit at home watching a clear blue sky with hardly any wind as the forecast had been pessimistic.

I then learnt to keep bookings and to go to the airfield to see what the real conditions were like. I also found a couple of airfields that were at a significant angle to my home base. I could then use them for crosswind practice with the home base as an into wind 'get out of jail free' card.

This showed me that with practice and good technique it was easy to fly up to the specified xwind limit. This opened up many flying days that I would previously have cancelled.

I would encourage any low hours pilot to explore their xwind limits, xwinds really are not that difficult.

ZA

[scooter boy]

Most important question to ask is - do I really need to go flying today?

If you are just flying for pleasure then is there any point in putting yourself (and more so your passengers) through the stress of gusty winds (and it can be stressful even when they are coming right down the runway as they can cause sever shear and ballooning of the aircraft on the roundout and lead to far from perfect landings).

50% of accidents were caused by "strong winds" in data presented at the last Met for Aviators course last week. More likely that you will break the aircraft than yourself but why do it if you feel uncomfortable about it?

The Bravado Brigade who claim to be immune to the effects of strong and/or gusty winds are either liars or severely lacking in insight.

SB

[John Farley]

PP

Certainly don't Cx on the basis of a forecast wind (forecast low cloud, rain or poor viz would be another matter)

However if when you see the windsock and are not entirely confident that the trip will be inside your previous experience - but still feel up to giving it a try - then I suggest it would be sensible (at your level of overall experience) to say to your pax "looking at the sock the wind is a bit lumpy today so you sit tight (in the clubouse/car) while I do a quick circuit and check it out - if it is fine I will be back in a mo to collect you if it is not we can leave it for today and you can buy me a beer at xxx."

JF

[Zulu Alpha]

If you are just flying for pleasure then is there any point in putting yourself (and more so your passengers) through the stress of gusty winds (and it can be stressful even when they are coming right down the runway as they can cause sever shear and ballooning of the aircraft on the roundout and lead to far from perfect landings).

I would agree if all you want to do is a local circuit every few weeks. However, if you want to go somewhere further afield then there is always the possibility that the wind may be stronger and unhelpfully aligned than forecast. Much better to have practiced this than have to deal with it for the first time at a strange airfield. I'm not being gung ho, if you actually want to use your licence to go places then learning how to deal with wind is important.

Passengers are a different matter.Often their tolerance of bumps and turbulence is less than the pilots. I don't take people for rides if I think they won't enjoy it

ZA

[HR200]

At Leeds Bradford I have regularly taken a Robin 200 up at 300/20G27KT, the runway is 14/32.

I love xWind landings, they challenge you so you don't become lazy on the final approach.

At LBA, xWind is usual.

[Islander2]

if you actually want to use your licence to go places then learning how to deal with wind is importantAbsolutely right, that foreign food can play havoc! :)

[decemberflower]

I'd fly in gusts less than 25 kts. There was 24 kt gust when I was coming back from my second solo x-country, landing was a bit tough but not too bad. My instructor made me fly in 25-27 kt gusts quite a few times so I can handle it, but I don't enjoy it, and avoid it if I can.

[SNS3Guppy]

Knowing when to say no is one of the single most important attributes of an aviator.

Gusty conditions are subjective to three main elements. One is the airplane. Another is the pilot. Another the type of gusting conditions.

Different airplanes need to be flown differently. In a light airplane, you can get away with less flap as a crutch to gusty conditions, and in some cases, it may be helpful. The light, low-powered airplane has little inertia or reserve power, doesn't accelerate quickly, and may be better served with a lesser flap setting. The difference in stall speed with flaps or no flaps isn't very large. With other aircraft, particularly heavier or more advanced airplanes, the difference can be substantial. As an example of an early flap-airplane, the B-24 experienced a 50 knot stall increase between takeoff flaps and no flaps. The differrence can be substantial enough when flying ag aircraft that many pilots raise and lower the flaps in turns to increase their stall margin and reduce turn radius...at each end of the field.

Some airplanes handle gusts better than others. I've literally had the airplane fall out from under me in gusty conditions. Follow the manufacturer recommendations with respect to performance, configuration, etc. Recognize that your airplane, in fact any airplane, may not be up to the task. Environmental conditions such as microbursts exist which easily exceed the capabilities of any aircraft, yours included.

Pilot capability, experience, judgement, training, time in type, etc, all make a difference. This can change day to day. You may find you feel fine about the gusty conditions one day, but the next you're tired you're preoccupied with a family problem, you didn't get a good breakfast or your'e sore after a work-out at the gym. Your capabilities change; recognize them, and if you don't want to go fly, then don't.

I had a new job in an Air Tractor AT-802. I was flying it in gusty conditions in mountainous areas. I had very little time in type. I was asked during a relief assignment to depart a mountain field in a narrow valley and reposition the airplane to another field about an hour away. Aircraft in the area were reporting windshear of varying intensities, but all of our aircraft attached to the fire we were fighting were grounded due to winds. I refused the flight. The company safety officer, who coincidentally was the pilot to whom I would be returning the airplane, called me to pressure me to take the trip. I quit the job. I went without work for three, nearly four months as a result. I suffered substantial hardship, and kissed goodby a line of work I'd done for a long time. However, one does not second guess a pilot when he makes a safety of flight decision, and walking away was the right choice. Knowing when to say no is one of the most important attributes an aviator can have.

The environmental conditions are important. Are those gusting conditions just blowing winds, straight down the runway? Are they related to convective activity in the area (thunderstorms)? Do they signal something worse? Are they the result of local obstructions such as buildings, trees, or mountains? Very light winds can be transformed into very strong gusts. I worked a fire a few years ago in 20-30 knot winds, but a mountain pass was near the fire. Those gusty conditions turned from rough to extreme in the area of the pass, because winds were accelerated to 70+ with extreme shear. It was very violent; it hurt. One wouldn't have guessed it would be like that from the ambient conditions, but close to that area, flying from rough conditions into that shear and those rotors was a heart thumper. It's also a place where changing conditions could very easily make it your last flight.

Delta Airlines flight 191 crashed in the face of a thunderstorm at DFW airport in the USA some years ago. Microbursts. With substantial power and performance, the airplane still couldn't survive. Now I've flown the same gust intensity and profile in the simulator, even in smaller airplanes such as a King Air, and flown through the situation successfully...but it was a tragic, fatal event for Flight 191. I flew not long ago with a man who's got more microburst penetrations, intentionally, than anybody. He did a lot of thunderstorm research. He didn't do them at low speed and land in them, however. He flew them fast, with sensors on board. A whole different ball of wax when landing, and again, the environmental conditions can quickly exceed the capability of your aircraft.

A few years ago I had an inexperienced first officer in a light turbine twin who landed in gusty conditions straight down the runway at LAS (Las Vegas) in the USA. He ended up damaging the airplane and nearly shutting down a runway. Even straight down the runway can prove a difficulty or challenge. Know when to say when. Two weeks ago I landed in EWR with strong gusty winds...above 45 knots. I did a hand flown ILS approach to a landing, and it wasn't particularly difficult. It was a challenge, but not hard. The airplane behind me went around. So did a few others. My approach was in a 747 with substantial intertia. Was I able to do it because I'm a better pilot? No, I'm not; I'm average at best. Because of the airplane? Not necessarily. Conditions may very well have been better for me at that moment than it was for the guy behind; conditions were rapidly changing, weather was moving through the area. I certainly wouldn't have hesitated to go around if needed, or divert somewhere else (within reason...arriving from overseas, one doesn't have unlimited fuel). The published demonstrated crosswind for the airplane is 30 knots; it was 45 at the airport, with waves and blowing mist spray from the water on the taxiways and runway.

Would I have wanted to do that in a 172? Probably not. In fact, I wouldn't have wanted to go takeoff in that weather knowing I'd be flying around in it and returning to land. Know yourself, your airplane, and the conditions. Saying no to a flight isn't a bad thing; it's one of the best and wisest things you can do, and don't let anybody try to talk you into making that flight if you don't want to. I've flown a number of different types of emergency missions, including aerial firefighting and ambulance...and I've yet to see a flight that MUST be made. Knowing when to say no is one of the most important attributes of any aviator.

Pick a day when it's safe but a challenge, and get some experience, a little at a time. If you like, take an experienced pilot or instructor with you and make it a safe learning experience. Enjoy.

The pilot makes a difference; go with your comfort level.

[scooter boy]

Great Post, SNS3Guppy.

In the data I was shown at the met office wx for aviators course last week strong winds were the most likely cause in one of the accident groups but were only perceived by pilots as about 25% of the real treat level they presented.

Interesting perceptual set.

SB

[Tinstaafl]

It's interesting to note how the number of average gale days increases with latitude. It really gets quite challenging the further north one goes. I did a little digging of my own & found Shetland averages 42 gales days / year with no month free of gales. It was nearly always breezy there. More than once I saw 100kts wind speed from 1000' & up.

Our limit for operations was 50 kts on the ground due to a door opening restriction although if necessary we could manage more if we used the fire trucks as a windbreak. That was fine on some strips but if the wind was from the wrong direction some strips forced us to limit flights there to only 15 or 20 kts due to local effects.

I suppose the lesson is that it's not just the wind strength but a mix of one's experience, the aircraft type & the local conditions that sets what is do-able, safe &/or comfortable.