Where to get a decent flying suit?

[Contacttower]

I've searched previous threads...and I haven't really found a good answer.

I don't usually wear a flying suit, but I was given one a while ago (and for ages didn't wear it) and recently since at c. 5000ft in a Super Cub during the winter without a worthwhile heater it gets rather cold I started wearing it.

It's OK and it does anyway with the pesky knee board but it's little more than a cotton/nylon set of overalls and not particularly warm (I could wear a coat but I don't really like baggy clothing in planes with exposed control cables in the cockpit). The flying suits I remember wearing as a cadet seemed better quality...but I was wondering:

Where does one find a really good one?...Nice and warm, good fire protection and lots of pockets to put things in.

Are the RAF (ie ones you would buy at a surplus store) ones the best? Or perhaps one like the USAF use?

Any thoughts/recommendations would be appreciated.

[Pitts2112]

Your best bet, to my knowledge, might be Flightsuits in California. They make USAF pattern ones and have some other styles available, too. Not cheap, but good quality and basically half price with the exchange rate.

[eharding]

Suggest you try Ollie Elmer..

http://www.elmers.co.uk/aviation/

Very happy with the suit he made for me - quite heavy, can be a bit hot in summer but excellent quality. He was happy to provide whatever custom pockets etc you wanted. The only thing I would have done differently is specify the clear map pocket backed with a layer of plastic - mine just backs onto the fabric, and after a particularly energetic flight on a hot day any paper in there can turn to mush....

[18greens]

These chaps make the flight suits for the RAF. They'll do pretty much anything you like for about £300. Nomex, pockets everywhere you like, made to measure any colour.

http://www.jaysracewear.co.uk/

Also SES near Kemble do old RAF ones for £100.

http://www.survival-eq-services.com/about.html

Choose and fill your boots.

You can choose between PROBAN (which washes out ) or NOMEX which does in some peoples minds.

[SNS3Guppy]

Whereas wearing a flight suit uniform as a military officer is one thing, oen tends to look more like an idiot when one shows up wearing on in a Cessna 152, Super Cub, or Cherokee.

Blue jeans and a tee shirt with a jacket work well, though.

[robin]

I bought mine at my local 'surplus' store. An ex-military flight suit for £30... great value

[radicalrabit]

would a proper flying suit offer better protection in a crash ?
Seems doubtful to me

[eharding]

would a proper flying suit offer better protection in a crash ?
Seems doubtful to me


Obviously. Which is why the RAF mandate that all aircrew should wear nothing more than a pair of Speedo swimming trunks and a big grin when serving as flight crew. You 2@.:)

Risk and practicality determine most things. In the Pitts, where the fuel tank is suspended over my lower legs, a degree of fire protection is agreeable should it all go tits up. Ditto the Yak, but oil is more of a factor than fuel. In a spamcan, I just wear my Speedos and a grin.

[Flying Binghi]

Wo'nt keep you warm but, from my reading of the main killers in survivable acciedents, I would probably spend the money on a good helmet.

If you go with the full suit - get the best fire resistant gloves - your fingers tend to be the first to go in a fire. Try opening doors, or taking of burning clothing with no fingers.

(please note, this info is from my personal reseach - I am no expert)

[SNS3Guppy]

You might want to rethink that leather jacket; it's going to serve you better than a nomex one, in most cases. Of course, if you pick a jacet with nylon lining and nylon cuffs and waistband...then it won't help you so much.

Nylon burns quickly, and melts faster. Nomex melts, too. It doesn't sustain a flame. But it does burn. Leather generally doesn't burn, but depending on what's in the leather and what's attachd to the leather you won't have protection for long. Some good leathe jackets have nomex interiors and do away with the flexible cuffs...these are much better.

Cottons do burn, but not as fast.

Now, leather by itself transfers heat quickly and retains it...but it's still a good choice if the other option is a synthetic fammable ike nlon or rayon.

I base this on years of firefighting experience on the ground and in the air.

If you're going to to wear flight suit, a military specification suit is your best bet. If you're looking for a good price, check out flightsuits.com, and visit their clearance rack. You can get some very good quality suits that are returns or parts of orders that were never taken, at a big discount. I've worn some of them professionally doing fire and medical work.

http://www.flightsuits.com/clear_unif_nmx_men.html

What a flight suit will do for you is give you very limited protection from flash burns while you're getting clear of the danger area. Bear in mind that a flashover becomes unsurvivable very quickly...quickly being a relative term often measured in miliseconds. it typically starts at a generic 1,100 degrees F and can quickly reach 1,800 degress F or more. Those aren't survivable temperatures. I've been in structures and trainers when the temps got hot enough to melt the nomex around breathing apparatus, helmets, and masks, and equipment was too hot to touch nearly a half hour after exiting the heat. That's with a lot of equipment worn by trained personnel...in environments where standing or sitting up would be enough to cook you. The difference between alive and dead can be measured in inches.

A flight suit can protect you very briefly from thermal burns, but you need gloves that overlap at the wrists and leather boots that overlap at the ankles, and head and face protection, too...and the most vulnerable part of your body, the part that will kill you, is your airway. You can put all the protecction you like on your body, but if the airwa isn't protected, then you're not going to make it.

A flight suit has some application if you're doing low altitude flying, sitting on an ejection seat, or putting yourself in a position where it might be required. For normal trips around the pattern, a weekend rental, or a flight to grandma's house, it tends to look a little silly in a cherokee or cub.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Contacttower,

Some time ago I visited Jays and had the opportunity of holding one of the suits of the sort they supply to 'the Stig', the professional racing driver who appears regularly in the 'Top Gear' motoring TV show. It weighed a ton!

The reason was because it was constructed from no less than three layers of Nomex of various different thicknesses. At three layers, it provided guaranteed protection against burning for just 11 seconds! Just long enough for the race course fire truck to get to the scene and start applying their fire extinguishers to the driver and his car.

So a flying suit made from a single layer of Nomex will protect you from burning for probably about 2 seconds. The advantage it does give is that it does not actually burst into flames as cotton will. In short, it won't stop you from burning, but at least your injuries might be less than if a cotton suit had turned you into a fire ball.

I have got Jays to supply me with some Nomex pants, with pockets where I want them, a Nomex fleece jacket likewise and some Nomex zipped polo neck shirts. Used together, these things don't look like the military grow bag, but give me just that little bit of extra utility and protection, at least as good as the military grow bag would provide.

Incidentally, Jays also supply the Red Arrows, so they must know something about what flying requires.

Broomstick.

[Flying Binghi]

I was wondering when we would get a proper post out of you Guppy :ok:

Guppy, glad you went into depth about the leather jacket. There seems to be some different opinions about them.

I'd read a post (another forum) made by a chap who has done post crash investigations for the US airforce. He made mention of the dangers of leather jackets and that they were to be avioded. He also made the point about pilots who had their fingers burnt off, not being able to unzip the jacket, and cooking to death.

I guess as you point out, the other option is to have the nomex jacket melt into your skin.

You mention nomex lined leather jackets. Your comment doesnt make it clear, but do they offer insulation from the cooking effects of the leather jacket ?

[Contacttower]

Thank you for your thoughts everyone, you've been very helpful.

[Flying Binghi]

Contact Tower,

Broomstick probably foregot to mention to beware of static electricity in Nomex flying suites / garments. Aparently a lot of the older suites, and some of the cheeper new suites, build up a charge of static electricity.

Nomex comes in many grades. In the oil refinerys there have been several incidents of the static charged suites of certain Nomex types causing fires.

Probably pay to read the fine print on the label.

Edit - Pilot refueling an aircraft - not a good time to have static electricity.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Flying Binghi,

Actually, static in Nomex is something I never thought of and knew nothing about. You've set me thinking.

Broomstick.

[Captain Smithy]

Your local garden centre should have plenty of grow-bags ;)

You'd probably be better off with an old pair of jeans and a jacket. Works well for me:ok:

Smithy

[chevvron]

Join an Air Cadet Gliding School; you'll get issued with flying suits and other cold weather clothing.

Incidentally for flying gloves; Wilkinson Hardware shops do lined leather gardening gloves for £3.99; they last just as long as 'official RAF Issue' leather gloves costing about £25 or more.

[airborne_artist]

The fabric/treatment may have changed, but back in the days when I went to work in a smart green flying suit I seem to recall that the fireproofing function deteriorated with age/washes. Buying one from a surplus store might not be the best option, therefore.

[DBisDogOne]

What about thin-ish padded motorcycle clothing? That's what I've used. (Not flame retatrdant though!).

[TicketyBlue]

www.silvermans.co.uk - Just do a search for "flying suit"

[radicalrabit]

ref mr eharding..

I sill dont see how a flying suit is going to protect anyone from the g force / impact related injuries that are the cause of death in most accidents related to GA. Nomax leather or what ever its made from.
And as has been amplified here, whereas a racing driver may have marshalls on hand to get the foam on him in seconds , that isnt going to be available at the site of the majority of GA crash sites.
So I ask again , what real benefit do they provide?

[eharding]

Well, in the event of a full-on sub-second 200kt 0 to 0kt deceleration event the benefit of a custom-made flying suit and helmet will be that they can match up your head with the rest of you, since your name will probably be inscribed or embossed on both items, which may well be a considerable distance apart after the event.

In a full-on fuel fire, every part of a second that whatever you are wearing may either prolong the agony, or give you that wafer-thin margin to escape. Your choice.

I've never been in either situation, thankfully. On a daily, practical basis, flying aerobatic types wearing grow-bag is a) a lot less restrictive than a pair of jeans and b) gives you the opportunity to secure all and any loose article about your person (apart from the nut than connects the stick to the the seat).

We've done this to death regarding parachutes and helmets on a different thread. Search for 'tigerbatics' for a forthright discussion of the subject.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi radicalrabit,

Whether you bother with specialised flying clothing depends on the kind of flying you intend to do and the types you intend to do it in. Clearly, if you are going to fly gliders then Nomex is an irrelevance.

However, if you are going to fly an early Piper Cub, in which the fuel tank looks like a tin can suspended an inch or so above the pilot's shins, then some kind of limited fire protection provision makes sense. A lot of aerobatic types too have large fuel tanks immediately behind the engine; (Slingsby Firefly being a case in point). When I bought my kit, I was planning to include flying vintage types in my flying. In fact, I'm going to fly a Cub on Monday.

Preventing impact injuries is essentially the task of the aircraft manufacturer. A task they have so far utterly shirked. The average modern aeroplane is at least thirty years behind the average cheap motor car. Not only do they have no rigid safety cages for the occupants and no airbags, some even have obvious designed in hazards. The Sky Arrow, for example, has a sharp flange along the entire bottom edge of the instrument panel specially designed to cut into the pilot's shins in the event of a forward crash. In safety terms, this is a design howler, yet if you read the magazine reviews of these aircraft, this hazard is not even mentioned because pilots are so used to the present disgraceful design that they don't even expect safe cockpits.

Broomstick.

[tigerbatics]

For aerobatic flight I thnk a flying suit is essential. It allows keys, money, whatever to be zipped into pockets and reduces the danger of loose objects finding their way into the aeroplane. It assists in strap tightening because it presents a uniform surface area and is, as Ed says, much less restrictive than jeans etc.

For the fashion aware pilot it also sets off the bone dome and 'chute.

It is also a very good idea for the non-aerobatic pilot who flies a machine that others may aero.

Whether it makes sense just puttering about aimlessly or wandering about from from one airfield to another in a S & L machine is a question which is as hard to answer as it is to understand why anyone bothers.

[radicalrabit]

Thanks tigerb...and others ;While the RAF pilots used to have the full kit on for flying Bulldogs, I dont think pottering about in a Cherokee needs a bright red flameproof overall, top gun style bone dome with visor grey leather gloves etc. I will just find somewhere secure for the chinagraphs.
That makes sence to me.

[SNS3Guppy]

[QUOTE]I'd read a post (another forum) made by a chap who has done post crash investigations for the US airforce. He made mention of the dangers of leather jackets and that they were to be avioded. He also made the point about pilots who had their fingers burnt off, not being able to unzip the jacket, and cooking to death.

I guess as you point out, the other option is to have the nomex jacket melt into your skin.

You mention nomex lined leather jackets. Your comment doesnt make it clear, but do they offer insulation from the cooking effects of the leather jacket ?
[/QUO

A leather jacket will not cook you. Leather transfers heat and retains heat better than cloth layers...which is why fire gear is typically polyaramid fiber. However, what a leather jacket does do is resist burning. If you're in a fire long enough for the leather to get that hot, then you're already cooked. As I pointed out before, your airway is the most crucial part of your body, more than your fingers, your eyes, or anything covered by that leather jacket. If you're cooking under your leather jacket, your airway is probably already toast.

If your leather jacket is lined with nylon or rayon, then the heat of the shell isn't particularly important.

You're not concerned with staying in the fire. If you're staying in the fire, it doesn't matter much if you have a nomex suit on or not. The nomex isn't there to protect you. It's there to keep from melting over you or igniting. And given exposure to prolonged flame, it's going to do both anyway. Everything burns. Nomex just doesn't sustain a flame after the source of the flame is removed.

What a nomex suit will do for you is give you some measure of protection against a flash fire. Depending on the nature of a flshover, the fire can range from a low temperature that reaches you, to a fire that will vaporize the clothing on your body and kill you right away, two thousand degrees or more. If the fire gets really hot, then you're not going to survive.

I've been inside structures when they're burning, wearing thick layers of turnout gear made of diffrent polyaramid materials, and been burned. One way of determining if rollover is occuring above you (fire you can't see, above you) is to turn your head aside and see if you can feel your ear burn; it's covered in several layers of polyaramid, but there's no doubt it's hot.

I mention that because your flight suit won't be neary as thick or nearly as protective. It gives you momentary protection agaist contact burns or thermal burns...but that protection is measured in periods of time less than a second. Beyond that, if there's fire and you're exposed, you're going to experience burns ranging all the way up to full thickness burns (third degree). The only thing your nomex is doing for you at that point it simply not actually catching fire. If the heat is enough to burn you, then that's little consolation.

More than wearing nomex, you can help yourselff with your choice of every day clothing; pick cotton rather than poly materials; things that aren't nearly as flammable and things that don't melt.

Older fire retardant fabrics were treated with chemicals, and the fire resistant properties decreased with each washing. Modern fabrics are fire retrdant all by themselves. In fact, they need to be kept clean to offer the most protection.

Leather jackets can be purchased from various vendors that have the lining as nomex or other material, as well as treated leather. An example may be found at Perrone leather: http://perroneapparel.com/nafi/

[Flying Binghi]

Thanks for that Guppy. I had recently decided to look into some more safety gear for flying. When my research came up with the possible problems of leather jackets, I was wondering what would replace my leather jacket.

I had looked at some of the nomex clothing and decided they were unaceptable for my use. Around the farm I need something to wear that is warm in winter, can handle the knocks and bumps of daily work, and yet be wearable in the aircraft. For example, I can be working on a farm machine and then jump into the plane to go get a part - I didnt think the nomex garmets would stand up to it.

[Tiger_mate]

If you are concerned about the risk of fire as opposed to just cold, then consider carefully what you wear underneath your flying suit or other outer layers.

All military aircrew wear long johns (cotton, not man made fibre) and a cotton long sleeved under shirt. Many advocate a cotton T shirt or vest under that.

The Chinook crewman killed in a fireball in Hannover (or rather he died 3 weeks later) vacated the aircraft having slid the full length of the airframe wearing only his underpants and flying boots. He only had a T shirt under his flying suit which was a fatal error of judgement. The flying suit itself did not survive the inferno and he sustained 85% burns. Weston of Falklands fame had about 65%. It is widely believed that had he gone for the cotton layers principle he would have survived.

Of cause all of this is balanced by probability. Nimrod crews far out over the Atlantic do not wear immersion suits because it is improbable that they will ditch without warning, they having 4 engines. Is there a real risk of fire or do you just want to strut around like Maverick. For those wishing to fly cold aeroplanes at height, remember that cold weather flying suit trousers may not look sexy but are very effective at offering fire protection whilst keeping you warm. A wooly jumper will set the 2 piece fashion statement off a treat.

The recent Beech Baron crash off the coast of France has highlighted a need to consider survival options. As has been said already, flying suits that have been washed and ironed lose their effectiveness, however few aircrew change their suits rather then launder them.

In summary layers are good. Cotton and wool is good. Man made fibres are effective against cold but melt quicker than a chocolate tea pot, and are therefore bad.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Flying Binghi,

You can get jackets and pants made from Nomex fleece from several sources, Jays being only one of them. These should be splendid for either flying or farming.

Hi Everybody.
I have seen several mentions in this thread saying in effect that untreated cotton is a good thing to wear, especially as underwear. Where fire is the concern, I don't agree. Cotton, unless treated with chemicals, will burn like a torch. If you must wear natural fibres, wear wool or silk. These, being of animal origin, will shrivel quickly if burned and will not maintain a flame. You can get these from the sort of outdoor shops that cater for mountaineers, skiers and cavers; (e.g. Blacks, Snow & Rock, Milletts, YHA Shop, etc).

In the early 19th Century the Rev. Patrick Bronte, (father of the three Bronte sisters who all became famous authors,) insisted that his wife and daughters wore only silk or woolen clothing, even though on his clergyman's stipend he could barely afford the cost. This was because in his capacity as a minister he had officiated at the funerals of so many women and girls whose dresses had caught fire from the candles and open fires that were in general use at the time. I think he had the right idea.

Broomstick.

[thebigweb]

Try http://www.flightsuits.com/ http://flying-schools.bigwebsearch.net/img/smile.gif

[sollas]

You could try

Ozee Online Shop - All Weather Protection (http://shop.ozee.co.uk/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=0ecafc846bf2a953186a2cbd18578d65)

They do flight suits that are used by paragliders etc, so should keep you cozy.

Hope you get/got sorted - just came across the thread today.

[robin]

Mine is a good condition surplus flight suit from the local forces surplus store.

It is great, warm, has lots of pockets and knee-boards oand, with the gloves I always use may delay the effect of fire.

In any event it keeps all my key items together. I don't fly a PA28 or Cessna, but wouldn't be ashamed of wearing itin those types.

What you have to think of is not how it looks (who'd wear a Mr Blobby suit else) but what it does....

A flight suit won't help in a collision - nothing much would.

[jxk]

How about a nice Harris Tweed jacket and a trilby hat; stylish made from wool and plenty of pockets?