Runway Incursions In Dubai

[HB-UAE]

After yet another very dangerous Runway Incursion at OMDB, there seems to be a new procedure being integrated for Runway Crossings RWY 12L/30R. When Taxiing from the E-Apron, with departure RWY 12R, expect to be crossed at N1.

2 very close calls in the vicinity of N4 have proven to be a dangerous scenario between landing traffic and crossing traffic.

What are your thoughts on this?

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[GMDS]

Disconnect the E apron from Dubai runways and build a connecting one to Sharjah, as the danger seems to be mainly originating from operators on the north side ......:}

[Yaw String]

On the subject of potential confusion.....why on taxying westbound on Mike, approaching L4 are we met with a slightly smaller sign than the rest practically indicating that for L3/L4 we should turn left on L4...got me the other night( it was that little arrow)..average dude that i am! Am I the only one...and if not..why have the locals not seen about its demise?
:ooh:

[OscarYankee]

Conditional clearances, issued routinely by DXB to large international group, in my opinion is not a good practice. "cleared to cross runway after landing traffic on final...." =trouble

Anything that can be misinterpreted, eventually WILL be... :ouch:

[Eric Janson]

Anyone had problems at OMDB with being cleared to cross the parallel runway and then the red stop bars remain illuminated?

I have encountered this several times after landing on 30R and then being cleared to cross 30L.

I've also had this happen after being cleared to line up for departure on 12R on M4(?)

[PositiveRate876]

Well they put out this NOTAM now.

1A6/08
DUE TO AN INCREASED NR OF RWY INCURSIONS AT DUBAI,
OPERATORS ARE REQ TO REMAIN VIGILANT WHEN COMPLYING
WITH TAXI INSTRUCTIONS AND AS SUCH REQUIRES ATC
PERMISSION TO ENTER/CROSS RWY.

So I guess all subsequent runway incursions are the pilot's fault. :rolleyes:

[westinghouse]

yo,

ive had that prob once of being cleared to cross the red bars. if they dont practice the procedure properly they might as well remove the stop bars.
kuwait is another culprit.

you dont see lon having any of these issues.

rgds.

[Sir George Cayley]

If the red lights don't go out - don't cross.

Just stay put and when convenient ask ATC to switch them off.

If every crew did this (and not just at this particular spot) things would be safer, but you might encounter a slight delay.

Sir George Cayley

[Chris Scott]

Quote from TOGA! :
" Conditional clearances, issued routinely by DXB to large international group, in my opinion is not a good practice. "cleared to cross runway after landing traffic on final...." =trouble. "
Unquote

Don't know today's Dubai, but surely the above phraseology should never be heard from the mouth of any controller, nor from the pilot reading it back.

One of the lessons drawn from the notorious Tenerife-North runway collision, as long ago as the late 1970s, was that conditional clearances can be misinterpreted, particularly if the "condition" part of the transmission is blocked by reception problems, being "stepped on", or radio failure. This realisation resulted in fundamental changes to R/T phraseology, which continued to be refined in the many years after.

The relevant change in this case is that the condition must always come BEFORE the permission/instruction, e,g.,
"Caledonian 123, behind the landing 747 on short final, cross runway one-two-left."

The crew's readback must always follow the same rule, for the same reason. 99% of controllers at large airports soon took this on board. Trouble is, many line piots and trainers - even when I retired (end of 2001) - were still getting it wrong... :ugh:

[PositiveRate876]

They do say it twice, and you should read it back twice.

"Caledonian 123, behind the landing 747 on short final, cross runway one-two-left. BEHIND"

I don't like the practice myself either. It does little to speed things up, and I don't trust the other pilots to follow the instructions.

When the controller sees the arriving aircraft pass the threashold, then they should issue to the "Line up and Wait" clearance to the next guy in line.

The problem in OMDB is that it's short-staffed. So the controllers are too busy to watch where the planes are.

[fourgolds]

I have to say that when I have operated into DXB that I have found simple R/T discipline to be lacking. Not only from pilots but also from some of the controllers. Often clearances / readbacks are given without the callsign being part of the clearance.

eg " EK 201 cleared to line up behind the 737 on final"
" err Sorry Tower confirm cleared to line up "
" affirm line up behind the landing 737"

Problem is some Illlusion or any one also tunes in at the second sentence
( or us on the day i heard this) and only hears "affirm line up behind the landing 737". Off course we questioned it , but its open for incursions.

I must say not an isolated incident , I encourage the DXB ATC,s to have a listen to the tapes and see just how often the callsign is omitted from transmissions ( Pilots and controllers alike) it will be astonishing !!

[throw a dyce]

At our unit (Nats UK) we are trying is discourage the ues of conditional clearances as much as possible.It is quite easy to eliminate almost all of them,and we have to co-ordinate every departure.
Crossing red stop bars is another big no no here.Unless there are very specific reasons,you don't cross the red bars.
Clearances without a callsign.:D Well what can I say.:ugh: Level bust data,runway incursion data,not listening to readbacks it's all there.
It sounds that ATC is Dubai is lacking in standards and not bothering to look at the latest thinking on this.I would address the problem to the Management at Serco,Dubai and see what they say.Their Training and Ops should be checking the standard of operational controllers.If they aren't they better start.:ouch:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

"cleared to cross runway after landing traffic on final...."

Maybe if the CORRECT phraseology was used problems might not occur.

Why are runways incursions increasing? I worked Heathrow Tower for 20+ years and never had one, although I did see 2 - yes, just two. Are people less diligent than they used to be?

[.Aero]

"cleared to cross runway after landing traffic on final...."

Not only is this incorrect phraseology - it certainly does worry the approaching traffic on final to hear a transmission that start with cleared to cross runway...

If indeed conditional clearances are jeopardizing safety I think the controllers should stop issuing them - even more so in parts of the world where non-militant, non-standard, and non-vigilance exists.

CAP413 chaps! :ok:

[HarryMann]

Every decoding is another encoding... !

David Lodge

[Yellow Snow]

Ah brilliant the joy of PPrune!

There is no evidence that the phraseology quoted by TOGA was actually used, in fact in my career I've only ever heard phraseolgy as poor as that from flight crew.

Any 'UK' trained controller worth their salt would never use phraseology like that, I think we're being very presumptious to assume all DXB controllers would do!

The tone of TOGA's post suggests to me that he thinks all conditional clearances have an element of danger, IMHO they do, but when used safely with a positive clear readback, they are fantastic tool that allows the controller to move onto their next task.

As ever ISTBC

HD there are more runway incursions at LL now as the definition of what a runway incursion is has changed! Did you really only see 2 in your 20 odd years? Don't forget that an out of sequence line-up caused by a missed read back or flight deck confusion counts. At LL before we stopped multiple conditional line-ups, one a day of these incursions was a regular occurance.

[PositiveRate876]

There are certain airports where you can use conditional clearances, and get away with nonstandard phraseology. But Dubai is not one of them.


Rapid expansion with a trainee controller under watch most days it seems now
Construction
Short Staffing
APT over capacity at peak times
Poor airspace design/ cooridination with UAE Centre
Operators varying from Iran's Assaman, China Southern, Korean Air, Russian transports that cross threashold at 3 feet, white aircraft of unknown origin, to a rapidly expanding homebase airline with 85 nationalities in the flight deck.
Primary ground frequency that's blocked by lengthy clearance deliveries that should be on a separate freq, or better yet invest in a PDC.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Did you really only see 2 in your 20 odd years? >>

Yes. I left there in 1992 (or was it 93?) for TC so things obviously changed after that. With multiple conditional line-ups I was trained to be absolutely 100% certain that pilots understood and I never made a mistake in that respect. That's why I post notes on here pointing out bad phraseology - and it's always pilots who say "line up after the landing xxx", not ATCOs. Why do they do it?

[HB-UAE]

I have seen listings about stopbar issues in OMDB. Working there I can tell you it is very unsatisfactory for us as well. The *crap* system we have works in an strange way. Once turned off the stopbars relight after 60 secs. instead of relighting after being crossed like in the most other airports across the World (induction circle). It has been addressed and is being dealt with, however you know how quickly certain things go in the middle east :ugh:

Anyways hope that helps a bit, I know it's not satisfying but crap system = crap results...:mad:

cheers

HB-UAE

[HB-UAE]

TOGA,

Great point! If the ATCO used your exact wording, it is non-standard phraseologie. Conditional line-up clearances are usually not a problem as long as they are given very specifically and according to ICAO phraseologie. In this case it should have been... Callsign XX, B E H I N D landing Airbus A330 (3 miles final), line up RWY 12L and wait B E H I N D. If this clearance is clearly read back then there should not be an issue at all.

Not at all do I want to say that I always only use standard phraseologie whilst working, however there are certain situations where it is of utmost importance that one does and such a situation includes clearances onto RWYs etc.

I'd be interested in what others have to say about this, but my experience has definately proven exactly this.

Cheers and take care

HB-UAE

[say what]

Firstly "the cleared to cross Rwy X behind the landing acft" is definitely not the standard practise at Dubai. Where conditional clearances are used, it is done using "XYZ, behind ...the landing (type ) line up Rwy X behind " and this is often preceded with the call "xyz do you have the type on final in sight" (this incidentally should be used for all conditional line up clearances)
So the Dubai ATCO's using that non standard RT are the exception not the norm ... especially with the crowd I hang around,

I have however heard countless wrong readbacks from the crew after having received the correct cond clearance exp. (a/c readback) "Line up behind the landing Goof Air 123"
Which is why I have always maintained that with a long Rwy like we have, long roll outs, especially in Summer, I cannot see the advantage of using a conditional line up clearance in the first instance ....it saves you NO time.
If you wait to visually sight the landing acft cross the a/c at the holding point, then issue a standard "XYZ , Rwy12 R line up and wait" you are saving yourself a whole stack of extra RT time. Also the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) comes to the fore using the easy simple method ? Agreed? I challenge anyone to prove me wrong on this. The only instance where possible time is saved is when the landing a/c will be off the Rwy soon after landing (PA28) and then possibly the waiting crew could have started moving a bit sooner onto the Rwy....we're talking fractional time saving.

Stop Bars

Stop bars at Dubai go back on automatically after 60 seconds - bearing in mind we need to cancel two stop bars for EACH a/c departing Rwy30R and one for each dep off Rwy12R / 30L. Likewise one stopbar for each arrival Rwy12L that is a lot of clicking for one controller pushing 35-45 or even more, movements an hour (not counting the countless VFR helicopters). So is the Tower man busy ?...yep you bet ya, given equipment/ergonomics of Tower/ "type" of customers etc etc.

So flight "Never-Grumpy345" calls Tower while taxiing along to the crossing point of the Rwy....After been cleared to cross, Capt Happiness and 1st Off Smiley take longer than 60 sec to reach and cross ... stop bar goes back on ....and Capt Happiness, despite receiving a crossing clearance from the same person doing those damned irritating lights, slams on breaks, instantly upgrading the whole of cattle class to first class...then transmits over several other important transmissions in a voice that has reached grumpy level 10 .... "Ehhhhh mumble WE STILL HAVE REDS HERE !!! "
Now the fact that the person controlling the very lights causing the concern, is also the very same person that has instructed you to cross that Rwy, an instruction that was readback, seems to be of no consequence !! THE LIGHTS CAN'T SAVE YOU FROM ANYTHING ...they are on/off normal lights ....no inbuilt pressure sensors, computers ...NOTHING !! Now please don't hear/perceive what I am NOT saying
Consider this ...when I am driving along approaching a traffic light that is red and a traffic officer shows me that I may proceed ...I do just that ... I don't slam on brakes and shout through the window to him that the lights are red ...or do you?
What about at the countless airports throughout the world that do not use stop bars, either not by day, or only in CAT II conditions.
Perhaps if stop bars where mandated world wide and they were made to have some artificial intelligence then perhaps they would become even more beneficial ...

The proximity of the rwy's, insufficient/improper markings, the fact that ATC talks to someone in the cockpit who then re-translates to some other guy in another language, Wrong readbacks not corrected ...those are the cause of a lot of incidents.
:ok:

[Stall Inducer]

say what - I understand entirely what you are saying, but it is not only our company SOP not to cross red stop bars unless specifically cleared to do so by ATC but also they are our last line of defence against a runway incursion. What if you had cleared us to line up 60 secs ago and the traffic that was at 5 miles then is now at 2 but the RT is busy and you are unable to tell us to cancel line up clearance and hold short of rwy xx . If we as flight crew decide to ignore it as you recommend how exactly do we explain at tea and biscuits that we saw the red stop bar and chose to cross it anyway? To do so in my opinion could be classed as negligent and something I personally would not be happy to do. I would rather accept a few seconds of delay in order to get a clearance to cross the reds than continue to proceed across them and risk a runway incursion.
The other problem if given a clearance to line up 60 seconds prior to reaching the holding point is that this is often a busy time with us completing checks - takeoff reviews - cabin ready calls and after all that there is often then an element of doubt that can creep in if we were cleared to line up or not. A red stop bar only reinforces this element of doubt and a quick call to your good self is required for us to re confirm the clearance. - If there is any doubt there is no doubt.

[Dune]

Could not agree more. Under no circumstances will I ever cross a red stop-bar for the reasons just stated.

The problem is a DXB atc/airfield problem and the solution must be found within DXB ATC or the DGCA. If you want to have people crossing stop bars then issue a notam advising us that we can do so and maybe then we'll talk. Anybody in DXB ATC prepared to do that?

[HB-UAE]

... hell no. By no means issue a NOTAM like that. I understand both sides! I personally rather have Pilots come back and ask if they can cross then just crossing. However the tone in which is asked is a large factor in getting an ATCO p.o.-ed especially when it is not really his fault that the system he/she is working with is not good!

I'd like to repeat myself by saying... It is quite frustrating having to work with a stopbar system that turns back on automatically after 60 secs. Let me give you 2 easy examples.

1- with a conditional line-up clearance to line-up behind a landing a/c @ 3 miles final, turning off the stopbar would result that it comes back on when the inbound is about 1 mile final... being distracted with other a/c this often results in the usual... *red lights*...:} and it is not a fact that we didn't turn them off it is the fact that they just come back on automatically!

2- an outbound a/c calls on twy K (still some 200 meters before K10.. which is ok...) approaching K11. crossing clearance is issued, the stopbars turned off, but by the time the big A340-500 or B777-300 has actually reached K11 and turned 90°, more than 60 secs have passed and the stopbar is lit up again.. again *red lights*...:zzz: and again it is not a fact that we didn't turn them off it is the fact that they just came back on.

I usually try to practise double clicking the stopbar after about 20-30 secs :D to restart the 60 secs however sometimes workload just doesn't permit this. Please try not to forget the amount of coordination that we do for repositioning a/c, non standard departures etc. etc.

Cheers for now and I'm sure most people understand the problem and we all know not everything is Gold that shines... not... :=

bye bye

HB-UAE

[say what]

Stall Inducer ...r u implying an ATC gave u a line up instruction, then ealised he goofed up , could'nt find RT time to cancel your line up and then uses the lights to help him out the poopoo ? have'nt thought about that scenario ....valid point ... possible to do ....can't recall anyone doing it ...but yes possible .
The 60 second time out peev becomes even greater not for the active landing and dep Rwy (30R) but for crossing the closed dis-used 30L. i do realise, much to my own disgust that one can't possibly make exceptions.
A/c calls halfway down K en-route to K10/K11 crossing ...u can cross him and save RT ,...so u do so ....BUT now u have to remember that u still need to cancel the stop bar a little while later when it's in the 60s window .... see the frustration and workload ? This is perfectly highlighted by HB-UAE above ...
And yes Stall Inducer ... I have just re-read your 2nd point ....also quite valid .... Bottom line it's an understand / understand scenario ....perhaps one of the Emirates crew would like to re-post this on their forum or notice boards ...

Getting back to the RT thing ..... a taxi clearance "taxy M4 holding point Rwy12R " Cannot/may not be readback as:
"m4 Rwy12R ....goof Air123" (no clearance limit readback)
"Hold short m4 12R" (hold short of or on M4 - where on M4)

Holding short is not neessarily at the holding point line (60m from Rwy's longer than 900m) .... Most Holding points at Dubai are CATII approx 100m from Rwy edge....see the difference ?
It's NOT a case of same same ... :)

[lestump]

Conditional Clearances

Have to agree with say what. Conditional clearances rarely save any time but introduce a new element of risk. I use them only when I consider that they will help me use a gap which will otherwise be lost. I also refuse to say behind twice, for this reason: I say "Traffic is a 737 on final behind that aircraft line up." Pilot's readback must include the word behind, otherwise I will be down his throat looking for the word. Not standard? So shoot me. Using this phrase I have not had an aircraft line up incorrectly in the past 19 and a half years. Conditional clearances, with a few exceptions, save little time and by my observation and IMHO when used for virtually every single line up or runway crossing they are the refuge of a lazy controller who can't or won't watch his traffic.

But that's just my opinion of course.:rolleyes:

[forget]

Never Cross a Red Stop Bar here (http://www.skyguide.ch/en/Dossiers/Dossier_Safety/Downloadables_dossier_safety/Runway_safety_team_zrh_2_bulletin_english.pdf)

[White Knight]

Say What - it can take quite a few seconds to get a 370 tonne 345 moving, especially UP the slope at K10 and K11, so feasibly yep, the 60 seconds is up before we've crossed and I WILL NOT CROSS RED STOP-LIGHTS (unless they're notamed as stuck on and I've double checked with ATC)

[L1011]

Have to agree with WK. I always check before crossing, even in daylight.

But isn't there at least one stop-bar (some where on M - M10 crossing 12L?) that ATC claim to have no control over? Thought they mentioned that the other day.