Merged: Jetstar EBA 4

[Nuthinondaclock]

Sorry, part of my last post was incomplete it should have read:


(In your post 21 Dec 2006 you discuss the lateness of your January 2007 roster at Emirates.)

[Condition lever]

Nuf,

Total bulls@it. He never said this at all

Sorry, don't understand??????:confused:

Ian Wood IS on record as stating: AIPA COM will be required by its membership to take action to have put in place a binding irrevocable agreement that mainline pilots will operate all B787's

[I'm Driving]

Is that selective hearing Condition Lever? Is there more to that quote?

[Condition lever]

Of course, there always is.

Nuf's statement needed to be corrected though.

[Condition lever]

The full quote is posted above by HotnHigh.
Couldn't understand how Nuf could be selective in his hearing (reading etc etc)

[I'm Driving]

Seriously Condition? Are you playing politics with semantics? You didn't even read the rest of his quote.

['holic]

Been biting my tongue for a while now ......

Please .... someone, anyone ... convince me that giving clowns like Led Zep and his mates the opportunity to join AIPA is the best way to go for the current AIPA membership. I'm hoping they aren't indicative of the attitude of the Jetstar pilot group as a whole, but just a vocal minority.

Maybe they do have a hidden agenda.

Maybe they are sitting at their computers wearing aluminium foil hats.

Either way, supposing they did join AIPA, how would we negotiate and reason with people like this? How could we be certain that, as soon as something didn't go their way, there wouldn't be a group of them running off to sign the first AWA they tripped over?

In an ideal world, I'm all for unity. But you can only work with what you are given.

This is one time I'm hoping I can be proven wrong .....

[Don Diego]

EBD could you please tell us exactly what it is that AIPA has done for you since you joined?:)DD.
Holic,unity is the only way.

[Condition lever]

Seriously Driving????
That is what he wrote - can you really argue with that????

[I'm Driving]

I am just astounded. This really is a joke.:ugh:

I graduated from pre-school quite some time ago Condition.

[Captain Sherm]

It is now clear to me. Emotion aside I think I have the logic down right. Without name calling can someone show me where I’m wrong? This doesn’t affect me. So I can be dispassionate. I would, as an observer though and someone who believes in good quality jobs above all else, sleep better at night if I knew that AIPA and JPA would guarantee the following:

a) AIPA will take no action to diminish the competitiveness of the QF Group against all competitors
b) AIPA will take no action to limit the proportion of 787s going to the Jetstar Fleet
c) Any pilots willing to resign from Qantas to join Jetstar would be able to and would keep things like full datal seniority, super and long service leave
d) AIPA would not oppose an eventual "umbrella union" for pilots

I would imagine in return that the Jetstar pilots would agree in like terms to the following:

a) JPA will take no action to diminish the competitiveness of the QF Group against all competitors
b) JPA will take no action to limit the proportion of 787s going to the Qantas Fleet
c) Any pilots willing to resign from Jetstar to join Qantas would be able to and would keep things like full datal seniority, super and long service leave
d) JPA would not oppose an eventual "umbrella union" for pilots

[Flava Saver]

AIPA's roadshows this last week with the JQ guys and gals has been very well received by those who have had the decency to attend (work/time permitting of course), and a LOT of false statements, mis-quoting etc has been clarified by IW & PS.

It is the usual suspects amongst our pilot group who didnt attend, nor have bothered to pick up a phone and GET THE FACTS before voting. Its funny how we as Joe Public take on board Liberal & Labors policies, and make an INFORMED decision at an election. This is no different.

To AIPA, thanks for putting a balanced, mature perspective on the situation to our pilot body.

The under-current amongst ranks is a good NO vote out there due to the fact that management have treated the pilot body through this process, as well as the JPA's lack of communication.

Here's fingers crossed to the Jetstar pilot body, Qantas group, and Australian aviation community that this might unify pilots a bit better, and we get our stuff organised before August, for the benefit of all. :ok:

[Nuthinondaclock]

Best post yet :D:D:D:D

[Pixie Princess]

The most recent AIPA supported QF shorthaul EBA achieved:


The same term as the proposed Jetstar EBA
The same % Pay rise as the proposed Jetstar EBA
A similar bonus scheme as the proposed Jetstar EBA
A loss for some just as the proposed Jetstar EBAJust how? by encouraging Jetstar pilots to vote NO does AIPA think they can do any better given the QF shorthaul EBA? Will Jetstar pilots be expected to wait 2yrs to achieve an AIPA negotiated result?

AIPA is now saying Jetstar pilots should vote NO because of the 5yr term and "variable" (bonus) remuneration; amongst other reasons. Yet this is exactly what they negotiated for shorthaul.

I support the idea of a global seniority list and coverage under a single union, but to suggest that AIPA can go and negotiate a much better deal for Jetstar pilots than the current offer is simply fanciful.

[Gingerbread]

Just one small point Jetscabster:

QF B737 pilots are in the top quartile globally when it comes to what they are paid,

JQ 320 pilots are in the bottom quartile globally when it comes to what they are paid,

Would you would be happy if JQ A320 pilots were in the top quartile and AIPA was able to keep them there despite the most draconian industrial legislation Australia has been for Nye on 100 yrs.

I suspect not. :rolleyes:

[Transition Layer]

Jetscabster (Great username by the way, very appropriate!)

Whilst you are mostly correct in what you say, those percentage increases were on top of a salary significantly higher than the relative Jetstar salary, (i.e. B737 v. A320). I am not talking about what a JQ pilot CAN make by working his arse off and getting lots of overtime, I'm talking about base salary here.

That's what this all about...bridging the gap between the two parties so that neither can be played off against each other. It's a WIN-WIN situation for all concerned.

TL

[QFinsider]

Just remember...

working more for less is the paradigm at J*(except if you happen to be a little irish fella who needs a booster seat)..Everywhere else will eventually come to realise that there actually is an acute pilot shortage.. and unless terms and conditions meet the mark it is off overseas...At Q we will get done by the likes of BA,RH et al.These guys will sell out the rest, much like GA...Those who follow carry the can whilst they swallow around on the A330 with a quicjkie command... Old stories new names and the game remains the same......:suspect:

[Keg]

The most recent AIPA supported QF shorthaul EBA achieved:

* The same term as the proposed Jetstar EBA
* The same % Pay rise as the proposed Jetstar EBA
* A similar bonus scheme as the proposed Jetstar EBA
* A loss for some just as the proposed Jetstar EBA

Just how? by encouraging Jetstar pilots to vote NO does AIPA think they can do any better given the QF shorthaul EBA?

This is a classic example of the intellectual dishonesty, ignorance or immaturity that I alluded to in a previous post. Transition Layer has summed up the circumstance perfectly.

Just to re-iterate, those increases were on conditions that are on average 20-30% better than those on offer from J*. Even if J* EBA4 gets voted up J* crew will still will be significantly less than the conditions that QF mainline drivers are on- for the identical job on virtually identical equipment.

[Captain Sherm]

QF Insider.....

What the heck has AJ's height to do with anything? And the booster seat? A while ago I flew the beautiful 777-300 which was longer than a 744 and had much bigger engines and was way cooler than anything in the Qantas fleet. Does that make me a better person than poor QFInsider?

There is a pilot shortage. You are correct there. That is why First Officers at JQ can get A320 command in 2-3 years and soon, 787 command, on very decent money. Way sooner than anyone in Qantas. So their earning profile from say 25 to 40 and the options that their 787 command gives them easily outstrip their colleagues who opted for more pay earlier but less over the longer term and a verrrrrry long time not in the left hand seat where any pilot worth the name wants to be.

As for working harder. Are the CAO regs too lax? AIPA has had years to get CASA to change them. Any progress? Why shouldn't pilots work hard? Ask a single mum school teacher or nurse with 2 children what life is like. Or any single mum.

And as for "Off overseas"....simply go. Don't talk about it. Find out what "market" T & C are. I did it, thousands do. Yu might enjoy getting out from the protected umbrella of a Legacy carrier. And you will see lots and lots of 777s, tho as we know, none proudly bearing the rat logo.

Good jobs, commands and growth is the new paradigm Insider. Has been for 20 years now since deregulation. Its what pilots want. Its what the public want and boy do they vote with their feet. The fact that this 20 years is is roughly the same timeframe as the Hermit Kingdom (AIPA) has existed may not be entirely coincidence.

[Pixie Princess]

Keg,

Let's talk about dishonesty, ignorance and immaturity.

You left out the most important part of my post.

AIPA is pushing the reasons for Jetstar to vote NO:


5yr term
Variable remuneration (ie bonus)I have a very good friend in QF who has told me these were in the terms of the QF EBA.

Do you not get it! AIPA supports it for QF and then turns to Jetstar pilots and says that is a reason to vote NO. Hypocritical or what?

Also, the overall package for QF seems very similar to the Jetstar package, except that Jetstar is a lower base. I have yet to see any indication of what AIPA or QF colleagues will do to get Jetstar a better deal than the one on offer. Do you honestly think AIPA can walk into Jetstar and get pilots another $50K each? Tell me exactly how they can negotiate so much better?

My friend tells me a QF 737 F/O will earn LESS than a DJ 737 F/O. How has AIPA done such a good job then?

[I'm Driving]

Less than a DJ F/O.

That is why in the shorthaul EBA the F/O rate goes from 59% of capt, to 64% of capt during the life of the EBA. So F/O's actually get 4% a year rather than 3% (sort of fixing the old B-scale).

Besides, if DJ F/O's do get more. AIPA can pull out the old "convergence with Virgin" thing that they had to put up with for years. Only this time I reckon the Company will find themselves on the wrong side of it.:ok:

"My friend tells me", is exactly what's wrong with pilots in Australia. Nobody could be bothered to do any leg work, so rumour becomes fact, and we're all worse off.

[Led Zeppelin]

Keg - I'll ignore your personal views about me, which are totally incorrect. They are irrelevant to this discussion.

This motherhood stuff from AIPA at the roadshow about how we can all work together is a smokesreen. Their timing is just too cute by halves. AIPA with about 2300 members simply doesn't need 450 JQ pilots to change its’ industrial base. The numbers are just too one sided.

So why are they doing it?

The real motive for AIPA trying to muscle in on JQ pilots representation is to ensure that QF mainline pilots are able to unduly influence and affect future Jetstar flying. Does anyone honestly believe that downtrack, if a majority of QF mainline pilots wanted a course of action, that AIPA COM would risk going against it?

This says it all:-

(From Nuf)

“””……If you go with AIPA you won’t have them fighting for YOUR 787 jobs. That is what your quote in red refers to. No surprise really. Of course if Jet* pilots take the path management is attempting to steer then down AIPA will have to take serious action to protect their members future. It’s if something ISN’T worked out between us that that may occur.….”””

What these people are effectively saying is:- "join our association or stand by to be shafted".

Nuf – you’ve summed it up perfectly and explained what Ian Woods' infamous words on Qrewroom REALLY AND PRACTICALLY mean.

TO ALL JETSTAR PILOTS – These people (AIPA) are putting a gun to our heads and won’t hesitate to fire the first shot if things go south for their QF mainline pilots.

Vote YES for EBA4

Vote NO for AIPA.


....Standing by for incoming.:D

[-438]

Jetscaber, the percentages are similar, the amounts are different.

Led Zeppelin, I think there's a monster hiding under your bed.

[mmmbop]

Looking through all the BS, is it really that hard to work out?

1. Management bring the EBA negotiations forward 9 mths.
2. Management rush through a second vote allowing AWAers to vote.
3. Hands tied for 5 years in the most pilot friendly conditions seen.

Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but never in my life has it been to MY benefit when someone has pressured me to act. Never.

Forget the paranoid and inaccurate cr@p that Led et al keep spruking. Wake up and smell the coffee- if you vote this thing up you are forever sentencing yourselves to 3rd World pay and conditions. Forever. Right at a time when you don't just have all the Aces in your hands, you have the entire pack!

It really is that simple.

M

[Capt Kremin]

Mmmmbop has a good point.

After all is said and done, the very fact that J* management is pushing the AFAP, the JPA... ANYONE BUT AIPA, must make any thinking person have some doubts.

The fact that Qantas expended millions of dollars fighting a simple change to AIPA's rules must also make a thinking person pause.

If AIPA is going to be a bad thing for Jetstar pilots, why is management on all sides fighting to ensure they are not involved?

Are there any thinking Jetstar pilots out there with an answer to that?

Or do you truly believe that management has your best interests at heart?

[Led Zeppelin]

Or do you truly believe that management has your best interests at heart?

Or more to the point - do you think AIPA has the JQ pilots' best interests at heart.

The only thing AIPA has at heart is the interests of the QF mainline group. That's good news for QF pilots.

[Going Boeing]

Led Zep, your music is great but you're beginning to sound like a broken record. :):D:D

Just accept that the huge majority of pilots in Mainline (ie AIPA) simply want to unify salaries, Ts & Cs, etc so that the current management cannot continue their divide and conquer tactics - no hidden agenda fullstop

[speeeedy]

Jetscabster,

Maths mate, you're supposed to be good at it.... 9.5% of $220-240k is considerably more than 9.5% of 150-170K have you got that?????

So it would appear that you have a long way to go before you can compare your EBA offer with the one the Shorthaul guys fought for and got.


Led,

do you think AIPA has the JQ pilots' best interests at heart.

How many times does it have to be said that the Jetstar guys will control their own destiny, the unity is about stopping the undercutting and divide and conquer which has been so successful, and for some reason you seem to condone.

If you think that AIPA has the power to steal your precious planes, then wouldn't they just do it, why would they go to the huge expense in money and effort to get you on board just to shaft you later?

Maybe they really want Unity.

There are some trouble makers in Mainline who reckon we should take a pay freeze across all fleets to get ALL future planes regardless of colour scheme (including the new A320's). The guy I spoke to reckons a pay freeze in mainline would deliver over $200M in savings over the next 5 years, can you beat that by flying 15 787's at $50k less? You can't even match it with 65 787's.

AIPA has not gone this way because enough undercutting has already happened, and they certainly don't intend to take it to a new level. That is what unity provides, a simple plan, yet powerful.

So why don't you answer the question already put:

If AIPA is going to be a bad thing for Jetstar pilots, why is management on all sides fighting to ensure they are not involved?

You have brought paranoia to new levels, and the shame is that your paranoia against the QF pilots has blinded you to the people who are really out to shaft you, the management.

[Captain Sherm]

Going Boeing has outed the total AIPA agenda.

"Just accept that the huge majority of pilots in Mainline (ie AIPA) simply want to unify salaries, Ts & Cs, etc so that the current management cannot continue their divide and conquer tactics"

That "simply" means the end of Jetstar and the rat on the tail of each 787, AIPA's true war aim.....because we know that all the costs would trickle down and throughout Jetstar. That would cost hundreds of pilot jobs and thousands of others. But the AIPA pilots would be OK and get a few of the drastically cutback 787 order book....for as long as they can keep throwing out "lesser" pilots to delay those fast closing wolves with Tiger, Virgin, Air Asia, SIA and EK logos on thier fangs.

This won't affect me at all so perhaps I shouldn't comment.....except that it saddens me and I suppose also because my super fund has a few Qantas shares and they'll be arguably worthless if AIPA gets their hands on Jetstar.

[I'm Driving]

Sherm. Jetstar's future success is totally dependant on what they pay their pilots? That's not even remotely true, and you know it. Are you Joyce?

As for "because we know that all the costs would trickle down and throughout Jetstar", what do the other groups of employees in Jetstar get payed, compared to their Qantas counterparts?

[flyingins]

There are many Jetstar pilots who understand the benefits AIPA can bring to their professional lives. There are many more who are beginning to.

If this vote is successful, the likes of Led Zeppelin will stop talking with such vitriol and may even start to make concilliatory noises towards those who dare to think differently. He and his camp will have the ascendancy and will feel justified and relieved.

If it is unsuccessful, I have no doubt he and his ilk will ignore the validity of the democratic vote and do just what they did last time; go to the company looking for an individual agreement. It is my strong belief that management will not, however, come to the party. It will be up to the remainder of us (the majority) to look past their selfish behaviour and provide them with the united front they need to ultimately get their coveted pay-rise.

Either way, rest assured that this entire process will have a positive outcome. That is, the increased awareness that every pilot needs an effective, properly structured and disciplined union.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Led,

Your fears are not based in reality. It’s all been answered before and it’s becoming quite futile and pointless if you won’t actually read the posts of those that respond to you. It’s quite one sided when others respond to the points you raise, opening discussion and you ignore them and instead choose to just repeat the same illogical rant to which they have previously answered. This shows weakness in your argument. What also shows weakness in your argument is when others ask you a question and you ignore it and just repeat the rant. So for the third time;

“What is this terrible history you have with AIPA that you speak of when it’s obvious from your previous posts that you have been at Jet* for a maximum of 13 months? (In your post dated 21 Dec 2006 you discuss the lateness of your Emirates January 2007 roster.”

If you can’t answer this I can only conclude YOU are not being up-front with your motives.

Nuf.
Ps: Nicely put Flyingins. The second scenario will hopefully be the new definition of irony. One day they may even thank you.

[Ang737]

Hi All

With the new EBA being voted on (This week I believe). How will this effect new starters who have signed an AWA in the last month of so...???

Ang :confused:

[What The]

Supply and Demand

Sherm, why do the costs have to trickle down through Jetstar. I hear this argument all the time "If the Pilots \ Engineers get a big payrise then every other employee group will want one". So what! The answer to that argument is that there is no shortage of baggage handlers, check in staff, flight attendants etc and this is unskilled labor.

What is happening is the management, (through their inability and lack of desire to explain simple supply and demand), have made their problem the Pilots' \ Engineers' problem. It's about time it stopped.

Remember, low cost carriers do not mean low cost pilots (SWA, Ryanair, Easyjet etc.). The Pilots employed by Jetstar deserve better from their management and certainly deserve better from their Pilots' Council.

The AFAP is a dead duck in the major airline arena. It is there to provide tenure to 2 long serving staff members. The Virgin guys do their own thing, the Jetstar guys do their own thing, the Eastern and Sunstate guys would like to do their own thing but anyone with any potential to do so has already left, is in the process of leaving, or is not political (Jarse).

Unity is what will stop Dixon, Joyce and Oldmeadow from being rewarded with your salaries in their bonus payments. If you can't see who the real enemy is, then I am sorry but you deserve all you get. :ugh:

[Nuthinondaclock]

Only a guess but I'd say it would depend on the outcome. I'd doubt anyone would know at this point. Maybe ring the various associations and see what their IR reps say. Might help determine how you'd want to vote.

[Cursed]

With International running costs 40 per cent lower than those of Qantas, Jetstar's competitive power is strong.
"We have managed to keep costs much tighter," Mr Westaway says.
"We have managed to keep overheads lower through the use of IT. Our people are highly skilled so we can do more with less people."
And, while still competitive, Jetstar's pay rates are lower than those of Qantas employees. "A Jetstar captain's pay is probably 40 to 50 per cent less than a Qantas captains pay," Mr Westaway said.

You folk at Jetstar need to drop the paranoia about the AIPA, and look a little closer to Bourke Street for those who are constantly lowering your expectations via scare campaigns, while advancing themselves. This goes for both your managers, and those on your representative association benefitting from miraculous rises to fame and glory.

Think long, hard and broadly before you cast your vote for what you want for the next 5 years!

[Tankengine]

Ask yourselves a few questions:

Q: Are you as "good" a Pilot as Qantas short/longhaul guys?

Q: Why do you accept [40-50%??!] less than QF shorthaul/longhaul awards?

Q: How much do some others in your company earn compared to QF?


A: I can't say about first 2 Questions but know first hand that some earn MORE! :ugh:

[777Contrail]

Go grab a calculator.


J* expects to move 7,5mil passengers over the next 12 months.

If the pilots want (let's grab a good number!), say AUS$15000/year increase across the board - Yeah! That would mean a 20cent/100pilots per ticket, price increase.

So 600 pilots will mean a AUS$ 1,20 increase in ticket price etc.

Since pay is tax deductable for a company this would come down to below $1,00 per ticket increase for 600 pilots to earn $15000 extra EACH!


Now the problem is, the management see 7,5mil people giving $1,00 each after tax, thats a cool number they can have for themselves!

Why give it to the pilots?

YOU have to MAKE THEM.

To do that you HAVE TO work together as a J* group first, and then as a bigger group together with the other airline's pilots.

You can not do it the other way around, by first working together with the other airline's pilots and then as a local group, first get the J* pilots together.
When you act as a front inside the airline you can achieve ANYTHING ( even get AIPA to represent you ).

[Chimbu chuckles]

Great last post.

Why pilots who won't support JPC think (not) supporting AIPA will be better beggars belief.

The reactions from my mates out here in expatland is interesting when I tell em 56% of J* pilots voted against a substantial payrise and getting everyone on an EBA.

They look kind of strange, confused even "WHY?"

Well some because AIPA/AFAP said vote NO. Some because they felt like sending a message on behalf of pilots not yet employed who were going to be paid 5% less for the first 12 months. Some because they are all worked up about what the CEO gets paid...and some probably just don't know exactly why.

One reaction was, and I quote. "**** ME! Say Yes to the pay rise and fix the other stuff later...in this industry you just never say NO to a pay rise".

It just has me stuffed why anyone would vote NO to a payrise and having all J* pilots on the same EBA. Is that not a starting point towards what the QF pilots say is AIPAs GAOL, with no downside risk if AIPA cannot deliver?

[OBNO]

Not much you can fix once you're Locked into a 5 year EBA.

[speeeedy]

Chimbu,

What if the offer was 50 cents and a Mars Bar, are you suggesting take it, because it is a rise, and get the rest later?????

You have no idea of the realities of Enterprise Bargaining.

The logic of take a pay rise now and fix stuff later shows a very poor understanding of the industrial landscape in Australia, and that includes the changes that may come under the new Gov't.

There is no power at all for 5 years once this thing is locked away. None. Nothing.

The management is desperate to lock this away, it gives them certainty in a tightening pilot market, and certainty is gold to them.

According to one of the sycophants "AJ gave his word" that if it got voted down they would not come back to the table until September. Well his word is worth as much as I suspected, he's back with great haste, straight into bed with the AFAP (could you imagine that 2 years ago!) and a re-vote.

If the J* pilots are smart they'll vote it down again and he'll be back. Patience, at many times, is a virtue, this is one of those times.

[Transition Layer]

Chimbu,

The reactions from my mates out here in expatland is interesting

If you're in "expatland" why the hell do you care so much about this EBA and why are you so critical of AIPA and QF pilots for getting involved? I may have missed it earlier in this thread but would I be way off the mark if I suggested you might be interested in a DEC with JQ sometime in the future, which is dependent on this EBA being voted up?

You show just how out of touch you are when you suggest that a reaction of - "**** ME! Say Yes to the pay rise and fix the other stuff later...in this industry you just never say NO to a pay rise". - is justified. It isn't! An EBA is an EBA is an EBA, it's an agreement between a group of employees and their employer which is binding, in this case, for 5 years. You can't just easily fix stuff later! It has to be fixed now.

So Chimbu, I ask you what your vested interest is in all of this...let us know or disappear off back to "expatland" as you put it and keep your nose out of this.

TL

[Jet Jockey]

On my calculator its worth 38k just for me this year alone, more than any J*eba offered in the past.
Plenty of money slipped in the back door through retention bonus, profit share, 50% flight pay paxing credits ,credits for Eps, sim and more days off.
Anyone who thinks they are going to get a big payrise in base over cpi is dreaming. Has not happened with QF F/A,s ,not the engineers or even the QF pilots. Even our saviours in parliment are not supportive of rises above cpi.
J* boys and girls had there chance in previous eba,s now baulk at someting that actually puts some coin in pockets.
Ultimately the market is setting conditions and guess what the J* attrition rate is less than Dixon's quoted 3% for qantas so things can't be that bad.

[Nuthinondaclock]

CC,

That’s a great story of your mate’s response but if all you told him was that he’d get a pay rise and not the full story of the situation here it’s hardly a surprising reaction. What he’s shown is that he’s totally uninformed of what’s at stake for all of us and the positives of what can come out of unity. If this wasn’t the case then it’s actually a great example of why we need to get together to help protect ourselves from the company recruiting blokes like this as DEC’s who will take the job on ANY terms.

Nuf.

[Nuthinondaclock]

JJ,

I've said it before but it's not the market that's setting conditions if you take this deal, it's Jet*/QF management. That's a totally different thing. 'The Market' actually allows us in times of a pilot shortage and unprecedented airline growth in this reagion to negotiate a much better deal if we get together and do it as a group. That's what management is trying to prevent by inciting division.

Nuf.

[maui]

Unity
Good folks, I sit on the sideline as a soon to be retired veteran of a few campaigns.
I am dismayed at the apparent lack of learning achieved over the past 20 odd years.


Throughout this thread there are calls for unity. They come from all sides of the argument. All either espouse its virtue or at least acknowledge its value. I cannot recall any post advocating dislocation of the pilot group.
Frankly I think unity is a utopian dream. The aims and interests of the various protagonists are too diverse, and in some cases mutually exclusive, for a pure unity to exist. The only common ground in this argument is that individual deals and action are detrimental to the system. It has always been thus. Strangely, although management don’t seem to recognise or acknowledge it, in the long term a rational, cohesive, unified, employee group is a far easier beast to deal with than a band of individual mavericks.
So if we can all agree that unity should be a goal, and that the concept of pure unity is not a realistic possibility, lets look at the objectives and history of unity within our industry.


In the blue corner we have AIPA.
Operating under a mandate from the QF mainline pilots to look after their interests
Rejected unity with the Australian industry when (soon to be management) Westwood and Cant spat the dummy and walked out on AFAP circa 1982 (or thereabouts)
Rejected unity with, and effectively limited the career opportunities of, the Eastern, Sunstate pilot group
Rejected unity with Impulse (J*) pilot group, in an unsuccessful attempt to limit that group’s career opportunities
Under threat of restriction of their opportunities has seen the light and wishes to unify all Q group pilots under the one umbrella to the benefit of all ??


In the red corner we have AFAP
Operating under a mandate from an amalgamation of diverse pilot groups from the entire industry
Was a unified umbrella over the whole industry, until busted open by a single interest group (AIPA) circa 1982
Has a history of trying to keep the industry under one cohesive umbrella
Has no vested interest in the promotion of one group of members over any other group of members
Having suffered from the most vicious government/company industrial assault ever perpetrated in Australia, has survived to fight another day (in contrast to their protagonists none of whom exist any longer)


In the green corner we have the JPC
A single interest group operating under a mandate from the J* pilot body
Sought unity with the Q mainline group but was abandoned at the altar
A relatively under funded and inexperienced organisation that has had difficulty reining in the aspirations of individuals whom it should rightly represent.


And in the yellow corner we have the free marketeers.
A diverse minority who will pretend to offer allegiance to whomever appears to offer the best deal, only to turn their back at the slightest hint of a better deal by going it alone or changing allegiance


Gentle folks , if you look at history, and the objectives of each of the groups, the best long term option is to have a specific council under the umbrella of an organisation that has no vested interest in a preferential outcome.

Too often this industry has seen the results of short term gain and longterm pain.

Vote wisely

Maui

[Don Diego]

Qantas Freight has just awarded a 6 year contract to Atlas to operate three 744's.Where is AIPA protecting and promoting the interests of their present members and how can those in J* and the regionals reasonably conclude that they(AIPA) could do any better for them???

[Gingerbread]

For the information of Ppruner's, AIPA's President has posted the following on another website:

Any Group pilot wanting to know more about what AIPA's GM and I had to say this week about Consolidating all Qantas Group pilots, Jetstar EBA 4 and why this is important for the future prosperinty of us all can listen to the audio recording available from:

http://www.aipa.org.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=8Ya7Jm5v69w%3d&tabid=57& mid=468&forcedownload=true (http://www.aipa.org.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=8Ya7Jm5v69w%3d&tabid=57&mid=468&forcedownload=true)

Should anyone have difficulty with the directlink, try hooking up off the public area of the AIPA Website at:http://www.aipa.org.au/AboutAIPA/tabid/57/Default.aspx

[TurbTool]

Nothin, the future you are promoting for J* pilots is one directed by AIPA for the main betterment of AIPA members. If you get your way the only way into a decent job in Australia would be via the QF selection process.

Each successful pilot would then be offerred a job at the bottom of one of the QF group companies and then, subject to various type/position/base freezes approved by AIPA, would agonisingly work their way up to the holy grail, a gig in mainline if they live long enough, all the while being by-passed by other new recruits fortunate enough to be offerred an initial entry on a better/bigger/faster/shinier type.

So no future other than to go DJ or overseas for anyone not fortunate enough to be one of the "chosen".

Meanwhile most of the 787 expansion in J* would quite naturally go to the QF pilots as J* wouild no longer be able to recruit externally, thereby denying any expat Aussie the opportunity to come home to a decent job. J* would no longer be able to offer good command prospects to its newly recruited fo's.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with AIPA trying to achieve that for its members but I don't think it would bode well for J* pilots or the industry in general. A little balance is a good thing.

What you seem to be suggesting is that J* pilots should reject a better pay deal, more days off, profit share type bonus for sharing the good times, and other benefits so that QF Fo's and So's can get access to accellerated commands in J*. I can't see anything in it for the J* pilots in the short to medium term. It certainly is a big ask from a group that seems to have done alright so far for themselves, without external influences trying to determine their future.

[Just Relaxin]

Maybe everyone should be aware of trolls on this thread.

maui - your post lost any shred of credibility when you stated "...(soon to be management) Westwood and Cant...". Neither of these two men were ever management in QF. However one wonders why you have conveniently left out the name of the second President of AIPA, Kearns, who did become a long time senior manager in QF. Maybe some of the posts here are actually being done by management to cloud the issues!

TurbTool - Quote "...type/position/base freezes approved by AIPA..." You obviously have absolutely no idea (or choose to ignore) how a GOAL as suggested by AIPA would work.

[maui]

Just Relaxin

Did Westwood not marry the boss's daughter, and then hold senior office in the training and standards area?

Did Cant not subsequently hold senior office in the training and standards area?

Maui

[Chimbu chuckles]

Perhaps for brevity's sake I didn't post the entire conversation:ugh:

Interested in DEC?

Nope. In fact a No vote would be helpful to potential DECs and I have been advocating a Yes vote.

If you want no comment from without then why post a thread on a public BB...in fact if industry comment is unwelcome generally lets shut Pprune down all together.

Why am I interested?

Perhaps as an expat, with mates in CX,KA,EK, PX etc, as well as QF,VB and J*, I have a more global understanding of the current 'pilot shortage' than those of you who have never worked offshore?

Has anyone going to the AIPA road shows actually asked Woods what he thinks of EBA 4/JPC's efforts?

Anybody tried to extract a guarantee from Woods that AIPA can produce something better, or are you just sitting there inhaling his spiel?

If AIPA cannot deliver on their rhetoric what will be the effect on 'pilot unity' in that scenario?

Would answers to those questions be deemed useful before a vote was cast...would they influence how you voted?

If, hyperthetically speaking, Woods thought that EBA 4 was an impressive document and the JPC had done a great job how would that effect people's vote? If he was unable to guarantee AIPA could deliver a better outcome how would that effect peoples view of AIPA's motives, rightly or wrongly, and their subsequent vote?

Anyone want to answer those questions?

But in the end either Yes or NO doesn't effect me so I'll just sit back at a safe distance and watch it all unfold....again.

[Capt Kremin]

Ahhh I see the real agenda now. The AIPA naysayers here are expats not actually in the QF/J* sphere but eyeing off J* DEC's. A combined QF group works against that as the J* commands would go to J* FO's first then QF/ Qantaslink pilots second.

Finally the truth is told.:mad:

[fender]

The Aviation Industry is showing signs of slowing, then what.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Kremin how you get that out of my, or any other, like posts is bizarre:confused:

If J* pilots vote NO it will be open slather for DECs and Individual contracts...those left on EBAs will be marginalised...if they Vote yes and all are united on the same EBA, which enshrines seniority among other things, it will be very much harder for the company to bring in DECs...and AJ has said in the past he would not bring in pilots on AWAs, or whatever form individual contracts take post work choices, if the EBA was voted up. He also said if it was voted down he would do whatever it took to ensure J* was successful.

How about you answer my questions rather than attack me personally.

[I'm Driving]

Chimbu.
The labour governments new IR legislation states that if 50% of a group of employees wants an EBA, then that is what they shall have. AWA's will be dead next month. The Libs won't stand in the way. Your wrong. So very, very wrong.

No I get it, Led Zep hasn't left EK in the last 13 months. He's still there.

[Don Diego]

Just Relaxin,has anyone from AIPA actually told you how they intend to get GD and co. to agree to the GOAL as proposed?
Chimbu,at the AIPA forum in Sydney last Friday there was all of four regional pilots and the Brisbane show earlier in the week had a few more.Interest would appear to be minimal based on those numbers.

[Scumfish]

Having worked in (non airline) management, dividing workers is an old (but questionable) technique. What you have to realise is that management of course, is trying to get the best deal possible. By having a divided workforce, this plays into their hands as people will start to worry and accept the lowest offer. However, on the other hand, if all Qantas group pilots were united, the better off those employee's will be. As AIPA now has the legal ability to represent all Qantas group pilots wouldn't it be logical to have them represent you? Ask yourself this. What does that AFAP offer you?
There would appear to be much self interest being espoused on this thread and it is very obvious that there is a lot of untruths being told. Personally it doesn't affect me, however, I would suggest that all Qantas group pilots get behind AIPA as they appear to have the best resources to represent your interests.
One further question. Do you want the money in your pockets or the exec's as in the form of bonus's? Because that is what is going to happen if you don't wake up to yourselves.

[TurbTool]

..." You obviously have absolutely no idea (or choose to ignore) how a GOAL as suggested by AIPA would work.

I personally heard the AIPA president explain his concept of the GOAL. He definitely referred to base/type/company freezes etc in order to convince the companies to agree to the cost of the additional training the GOAL would bring. He agreed when questioned that some pilots could be held, for example on the Dash8 at Eastern, while a new recruit went into mainline as an So or Fo or J* as an Fo.

Read into it what you like but if pilots could willy nilly jump from one type to another and one position to another at their whim at the company's expense then there is no way management will ever agree to the GOAL. The AIPA president, I am sure, knows this and that is why his concept included the freezes. Ask him yourself.

The labour governments new IR legislation states that if 50% of a group of employees wants an EBA, then that is what they shall have. AWA's will be dead next month.

In that context consider this scenerio.

The J* pilots vote NO again. Management accepts that decision and continues to employ under AWAs while it can, offerring the terms and conditions of the failed EBA to all existing and future AWA employees as well as existing EBA employees willing to switch to the AWA on those T&Cs. J* ends up in the short term with 200 EBA and 200 AWA employees.

Assume a ballot is held regarding EBA choice and 50% Vote for an EBA. The Company negotiates and offers an EBA on lesser terms and conditions than the existing AWAs, will that be accepted by the EBA pilots? If so will the new legislation require all existing AWA pilots to transfer to the new EBA on lesser terms and conditions? I think NOT. The 50% that voted for a new EBA may get it but it will not guarantee all J* pilots are on the same deal. That is assuming the J* pilots could actually get themselves into a position to negotiate a new deal on behalf of the 50%. Of course AIPA and the AFAP wouild be both willing to do that on their behalf.

The danger in relying on the Labour Governments legislation to deliver a better deal is self evident. Don't forget who introduced individual agreements etc in the first place. The Labour Government will not outlaw individual common law contracts.

Now consider that the new EBA negotiated on behalf of the 50% is a better deal than the AWAs. Then all pilots could go onto it. So in short no detriment to the AWA contingent. But a very big risk to the EBA guys in the event of a NO vote on the current Ballot.

[max autobrakes]

Sorry Tool,
What I heard reference the GOAL List was that there would be, as you state, base/ type/ company freeze in place for the company to amortize their training cost over a period of time to be agreed upon. I'm led to believe that training cost/ period to be somewhere around 5 years. However so as not to disadvantage pilots nor the company if a pilot wishes to avail themselves of a promotional opportunity prior to the agreed freeze period finishing, they can still move, however there would be a prorata cost involved depending on how many years of the freeze had been served.

PS:
Another question, does this new EBA ,if ratified ,meet or exceed the requirements of the new interim Legislation?

If not ,why not? Aren't you selling youself short then ,by signing this? All you have to do is sit on your hands for a few months and the Management would be forced to offer better to satisfy the new legislation, would they not?.

[fistfokker]

max autobrakes, I think you can rest asurred that the proposed Jetstar EBA meets and exceeds ALL of the requirements of the proposed new legislation.

[jakethemuss]

Fokker,

You and your mates trying to give JQ pilots an economics 101 lesson on your company website are laughable in your naivety.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

Fancy bringing that bull**** to an EBA vote. (You better vote yes because the WORLD is going to go into recession. )

Give me a break. Fly aeroplanes to the best of your ability because your Economics 101 skills let you down.

[mppgf]

Jake you are are gutless wonder !

You hide behind your non de plume here on pprune.
If you have anything to do with the Jetstar EBA you would be a Jetstar pilot and have access to the the Jetstar webgroup.If that is the case why don't you air your views where it matters and not on this public forum.
The guy you are denigrating at least has the balls to stand behind what he say's , unlike you.
Oh and by the way, this forum is not as anonymous as you or Pete Conrad thinks.:oh:

[Tankengine]

Maui,
Not sure what your getting at but I flew with both and neither Westwood or Cant held "senior office in the standards or training departments"

In the first case no way!:E

They were both Presidents of AIPA, Westwood the first [founding] president.

[Led Zeppelin]

Just so that there is no doubt as to AIPA’s history here, these are some extracts from transcripts during the AIRC hearings in 2007.

“.. The transfer of flying to Jetstar required a protection of the flying for mainline pilots.”

“147. Despite this, and the best efforts of Captain Woods in oral evidence to paint himself as more pragmatic than his predecessor, AIPA's actions have shown more hostility towards Jetstar under his stewardship. This is especially so in the context of Jetstar's emergence into international services. The following actions of AIPA under Captain Woods' leadership speak volumes for AIPA's hostility against Jetstar and its emergence into international RPTAS:

3 March 2006 – AIPA wrote a letter of demand requiring undertakings that would prevent anyone apart from Qantas Mainline pilots doing the flying on EBA7 rates, Q24. Note that at [51] of Captain Wheeler's statement he gave evidence that Jetstar cannot afford to pay its pilots the same salaries and conditions as Qantas mainline pilots. Captain Woods agreed with this (6273);

8 March 2006 – AIPA instituted Federal Court litigation (VI 251 of 2006), seeking various orders, including a permanent injunction to stop Jetstar having the use of the A330's (AFAP 51). The clear effect of that would be to prevent or seriously disrupt Jetstar's international services, as the A330's are an interim fleet pending future arrival of B787's (Qantas 3 para 32). Jetstar would have to try to find alternative aircraft from somewhere else in the meantime.

8 March 2006 – AIPA attempted to intervene in Commission proceedings before Raffaelli C to oppose Jetstar's application to vary the 2005 EBA (the 'wide bodied amendment') (Qantas 25). AIPA made serious allegations against Jetstar of coercing pilots into voting in favour of the amendments. (Qantas 25 PN9). AIPA has produced no evidence of this. The amendment had 73.1% support of Jetstar pilots (Qantas 3 para 110). Captain Woods acknowledged that this variation was 'an essential precondition' to Jetstar being able to engage in international RPTS (6177). Yet AIPA tried to stop it in its tracks!

27 April 2006 – Captain Woods sent an email to the Jetstar Pilots Council that AIPA had just been made aware of Jetstar being able to directly recruit captains to command the A330 International aircraft. He said that since he was at the IFALPA Conference in Istanbul, 'AIPA will do what it can to try and persuade IFALPA to support, if necessary, an international recruiting ban on Jetstar' (Qantas 26). Captain Woods sought to justify this ban by reference to AIPA 'upholding the legislation of this nation' (6024). When asked to elaborate he stated: 'I believe there is some legislative basis for that which would arguably – it's not clear, but as I understand it, an employer may seek government approval to hire, lets say pilots from – who are non Australian. For whatever reason, the government may choose to accept or reject that application, what AIPA was seeking to do was encourage the government to reject any such application' (6210).

In 2006, AIPA wrote to CASA with a view to slowing down any assessment process for Jetstar ETOP's permit application. Again, this permit was essential for it to be able to operate the Honolulu service in an efficient way. The permit was granted after two months. AIPA's position was that it should have been 12 months (PN6253 to 6264).”

And on the Group Opportunity List......

PN816
The so-called group opportunity list is a proposal that freezes the seniority of existing QAL pilots. This means that for many years no one from regional airlines has any realistic chance of successfully bidding for a vacancy within QAL. Today the Dash 8 captain who has 15 years of seniority at Eastern and wants to take up a first officer position with QAL in a B737, he has no chance. A second officer at QAL with two years' seniority there has bidding rights ahead of the Eastern captain. On the other hand QAL pilots would be able to access opportunity within the regional airlines, such as Jetstar, which are growing fast and therefore creating lots of new jobs.

Transcripts don't lie - It should be very clear to Jetstar pilots from the above history what the intentions of AIPA are, ie, to protect mainline flying at ANY cost.

We need to steer clear of this group and the demonstrated agenda it's following.

Voting YES for this EBA will send a message that we will manage our own future.:ok:

[Gingerbread]

Led,

You have done yourself and your credibility great damage.

Like a number of interested people, I too have a copy of the AIRC transcripts you refer to above and without exception the quotes you have pasted are answers to questions put to Captain Woods by the Lawyers of Qantas and AFAP.

Anyone familiar with judicial process will know that AIPA's Lawyers and/or the Judge will ask similar questions in the alternative to establish the full story.

That the Judge and subsequently the full bench of the AIRC decided to award AIPA constitutional coverage of Jetstar pilots means that the Commission was not persuaded by the attempts of the Qantas and AFAP lawyers to paint Woods and AIPA in a poor light.

Just the opposite I recall, the Judge said Woods would fight just as hard for Jetstar as he does for Qantas.

Unlike you my friend, it seems AIPA's President is an honest forthright man who calls it as it is. Shame you don’t have his ability to see the big picture and tell it without fear or favour.

Care for a piece of gingerbread?:ooh:

[Rostov]

Hardly,

The said eco's 101 lesson on webgroups/JPC is as spineless as it comes. Scaremongering fellow workers about doom and gloom to sway their vote is hardly having a set of balls. It is a cheap shot to the not so savvy economically minded. That is plain and simple. It cant be dressed up. Especially considering it is coming from one the first to run to AJ (and drum up support) for an AWA after the EBA4 went down the first time. Here's crossing fingers for a second time. Maybe they will hear properly this time.

[Led Zeppelin]

Well GB, you can't deny what was said in the AIRC - or are you saying the transcripts are wrong too. I believe the various letters, emails and comments refered to are absolutely correct.

By implication you are suggesting that I am not honest or forthright - stick to the argument, not the man.

[Nuthinondaclock]

GB is quite correct and he isn’t saying the transcripts are wrong, Led, just that they weren’t very convincing. Obviously the judge didn’t find the argument by QF/Jet* management very convincing at all by virtue of the fact that he found in favour of AIPA. Nor did the next judge who upheld the previous ruling under appeal from QF/Jet*.

Once again Led,

“What is this terrible history you have with AIPA that you speak of when it’s obvious from your previous posts that you have been at Jet* for a maximum of 13 months? (In your ‘previous post’ dated 21 Dec 2006 you discuss the lateness of your Emirates January 2007 roster.”If you can’t answer this I can only conclude YOU are not being up-front with your motives.

Nuf.

[speeeedy]

Led,

If you print out the transcripts of the Ivan Milat trial you might find this little gem:

"There is no way Ivan killed those people, it is just not in him, he is a kind gentle, caring, person"

If that is in the transcript, it must be right because it is written, right? yes quick they have to set him free!!!!!

Never mind that the quote could be from his Mum :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Don Diego]

Okay. You see how Gary Duggan says:
**** IAN WILLIAM WOODS XXN MR BORENSTEIN
PN5383
This is the most serious issue to confront your association for many years. It’s not being treated lightly. We have retained an expert specialist to scrutinise various aspects of the arrangements. I will provide further detail after next Tuesday COM meeting. My understanding is that the Qantas board meeting will be deliberated I propose later this month.
PN5384
And then in bold:
PN5385
AIPA will do all that is required to maintain this flying for Qantas pilots.
PN5386
?---I note that.
PN5387
And if you go down to the middle of the page it says:
PN5388
As a first step ACCC will be seeking a meeting with the CEOs of all the one world airlines to see what steps can be taken to help curtail the fortunes of these parasitic upstarts.
PN5389
Mr Duggan is there referring to them as parasitic upstarts because the perception was that they were taking away flying which was then being done by Qantas pilots, correct?---I’m sure that’s what he meant.
PN5390
Yes. That’s how you would understand?---That’s not what I would have said, but that’s what he said.
PN5391
Yes. Your Honour, could I tender that please.


No comment just fact,you decide.

[Gingerbread]

Looks like now Woods can't be credibly tarred and feathered; Duggan is to be set up by the Stooges as the bogey man who will do the Jetstar pilots in.

Recall that Duggan bucketed Woods badly a few years back. That Woods now works with him to further the interests of AIPA's mainline members only confirms that Woods is a man for all seasons and someone all Australian pilots can rely upon to bind them together.

As Confucius says; He who looks in the rear view mirror only goes backwards.

More gingerbread anyone? http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/mpangel.gif

[genex]

Hmmm....it may also be that this transcript is a reminder that nothing has changed in AIPA's approach and they are indeed determined to rush lemming like to the cliffs behind Woods and Duggan et al as they short-sightedly try to destroy Jetstar, the one part of the Qantas group that has the capacity to adapt quickly to the ever-changing competitive world.

With AIPA administered training freezes, single Mainline adminstered recruitment and posting, AIPA cost levels and inflexibility and Mainline overheads....Jetstar will be dead and buried and like Panam, Eastern and many others before, so will Qantas mainline head to the knackers yard.

A rearview mirror is useful to see the carnage behind and remind us all that there are lessons of history. If AIPA had the strength to do anything, it would not need to use Jetstar pilots as cannon fodder. AIPA adds nothing at all to Jetstar pilots except perhaps the use of the office photocopier to process the termination notices once it has killed off the airline.

[fistfokker]

You and your mates trying to give JQ pilots an economics 101 lesson on your company website are laughable in your naivety.

Not me, but I have read the posts you refer to. I don't see "the sky is falling" rather an unbiased view of a distinct possibility that the "future is all rosy" picture that some "naive" people want to believe, is not guaranteed.

[Capt Kremin]

Genex, we all turned off to your endless dribble about 10 posts ago.

[TurbTool]

I'm led to believe that training cost/ period to be somewhere around 5 years. However so as not to disadvantage pilots nor the company if a pilot wishes to avail themselves of a promotional opportunity prior to the agreed freeze period finishing, they can still move, however there would be a prorata cost involved depending on how many years of the freeze had been served.

max autobrakes, The pres didn't mention that little gem. I am not sure the other advocates of the GOAL are aware of it either.

How is that different to paying for an endorsement or a bond? Both of which I believe the AIPA oppose.

What if a pilot couldn't afford or justify the cost of paying out a freeze?

Would the pilot then be disadvantaged?

I don't think the GOAL is achievable, or in the best interest in the short or medium term, of Jetstar pilots. I can't see any benefit to Jetstar pilots that would justify them taking a path at their own risk only, to achieve the GOAL.

[Keg]

AIPA doesn't oppose bonds. All S/Os joining QF are subject to them and all crew changing types are subject to freezes. Freezes and a return of service obligation are both fine by me and I suspect by the majority of AIPA members.

If I jump and get caught on the wrong type/rank etc then I do that knowing that those are the possibilities. I jumped early for 767 F/O and spent four years rotating. I jumped late for 744 F/O because I thought a 767 command may be around the corner and missed out on two years of earning a ****e load of extra money. I'm not sure what your point is Turbtool.

I don't think the GOAL is....in the best interest in the short or medium term, of Jetstar pilots.

Short to medium term? Probably nil. Long term? Huge. imagine being able to decide that you may like to bid across to the A380 or other type when seniority allows.

I can't see any benefit to Jetstar pilots that would justify them taking a path at their own risk only, to achieve the GOAL.

Talk about propaganda. Do you deliberately try and mis-lead or does it come naturally? What risk are J* being asked to take GOAL? They are being asked to consider it as being an option for the future. I see no reason why QF and J* (and QFLink) pilots shouldn't be able to bid at will between fleets/types/ranks IAW a GOAL. Entirely up to the individual to make that choice. Yet you see no benefit in this. You also consider it a 'risk' to seek? Exactly what risk is that? What are J* pilots being asked to 'risk' in order to achieve GOAL? As far as I'm aware the only thing that QF and AIPA pilots have asked of J* pilots is to consider becoming members of AIPA and working together.

I think i can see the supposed 'risk' in this whole GOAL issue for one particular group of J* pilots. There would be many DECs who would be banking on the continued expansion of J* to avoid them having to take up F/O slots in a few years. Perhaps they feel that if the GOAL did get up that because they're on AWAs they'd then drop behind all the QF drivers in getting a promotional slot. Therefore if the EBA gets up they're on the EBA and 'safe ' from the rampaging hordes of QF drivers. If the EBA doesn't get up then they're still on their EBA. If AIPA et al then get the GOAL then perhaps these guys (like Led and his ilk) feel that they'll have to kiss goodbye to retaining their left hand seat.

I suppose that explains the hidden agenda. :rolleyes:

[Led Zeppelin]

Keg - This from my previous:

The so-called group opportunity list is a proposal that freezes the seniority of existing QAL pilots. This means that for many years no one from regional airlines has any realistic chance of successfully bidding for a vacancy within QAL. Today the Dash 8 captain who has 15 years of seniority at Eastern and wants to take up a first officer position with QAL in a B737, he has no chance. A second officer at QAL with two years' seniority there has bidding rights ahead of the Eastern captain. On the other hand QAL pilots would be able to access opportunity within the regional airlines, such as Jetstar, which are growing fast and therefore creating lots of new jobs.

Without any emotion, can you or someone from AIPA COM please explain whether this example is an indication of what could happen if GOAL was implemented ?

[Keg]

I'm not sure what you're getting at with this one Led? It's a relative simple thing. QF have been working with a Y system of seniority for allocation on the 'long haul' and 'short haul' types since 1992(ish). The GOAL just adds a couple of extra branches to the Y.

In the example you use, a current QFlink pilot would take 3-4 years (at current rates) to get a mainline F/O slot. That slot would be allocated on the basis of date of joining if there were two QFLink (or even J* crew) bidding for the same slot. IE if there was no one on the mainline list bidding for the slot then it would go to the next pilot on the GOAL on the basis of seniority. If a J* F/O slot came up in the interim then he or she may be able to bid for that first if they so desired. They may also be able to bid for the S/O slot if they so desired.

So you may say that the GOAL doesn't do much for the current QFLink 15 year captain because he's still five years away from a mainline F/O slot. It actually doesn't do much for most of us currently in the respective airlines in the short- medium term either because it'd be another 3-4 years before any of us would be able to get a slot. There would possibly be some advantage for current S/Os as they may be able to bid for a J* F/O slot in the short term. Of course they may be trumped by the QFLink 15 year Dash captain as this would probably be allocated on joining date.

So yet again you can see that I'm advocating a position that isn't of material benefit to me but would be of significant benefit to others within the group.

I should also point out that the 'supposed risk' that I articulated in the previous post doesn't actually exist in my mind. Irrespective of AWA or EBA, I would expect that the start date that someone started with the airline would remain. Thus, the current DEC who fears of being behind 2500 QF drivers in the seniority pile shouldn't bothing thinking about it. They'll be a J* captain even under the GOAL system.

[Capt Kremin]

Zeppelin, the Dash 8 Captain would have higher bidding rights on a Jetstar position than the mainline S/O. However people who would always have the highest rights on a Jetstar position would be current Jetstar pilots.

Your seniority in your own branch of the Group in preserved. You always have higher rights than anyone else to your own flying and promotions. Your rights group wide, however are based date of joining.

The GOAL lists primary function for it's early years of operation is to protect what you have now. No QF pilot willl get a Jetstar Command before a current Jetstar pilot. No QF pilot will ever be senior to a current Jetstar pilot on the Jetstar list.

No Jetstar pilot will get a slot in mainline before a current mainline pilot. No Jetstar pilot will ever be senior to a current mainline pilot on the mainline list.

Same goes for Qantaslink.

After the date that the GOAL list is finalised, any new joiners can go anywhere their seniority allows, after their freeze/bond period is finished. It is then that you will have Jetstar pilots senior to QF pilots on the list and vice versa, but they will all be junior to current pilots.

The example is TN pilots who now all have seniority in mainline for 767 Commands and they are senior to any QF pilots who joined after them on the combined list. They got their 737 commands ahead of any QF pilots. If they hang around long enough they will get 787/-400/A380 commands. There are some now on the A330 because that is a new type and covered under the Integration Agreement.


Does that explain it for you?

[Captain Sherm]

Kremin

So if Qantas allocated say 50 787's to Jetstar, and there were now enough pilots in Jetstar to provide all the left hand seat slots as at todays date (even if they were only A320 F/Os right now), do you mean that no Qantas pilot now or future could get to fly a Jetstar 787 in command until the current jetstar pilots retire?

[Keg]

Sherm, no. Not retire.

Let's say that QF agrees to GOAL with effect from 1 March 08. No current QF driver would get a look in at a J* command until all J* F/Os employed prior to 1 Mar 08 have had one of the three things occur:
a. Take the slot,
b. Be deemed not suitable for the slot by J* management, or
c. Knock the slot back.

After that it goes to the GOAL which would be datal seniority. Therefore a 15 year Dash driver trumps me (13 years QF). Next year the bloke or blokette who knocked the slot back or was found unsuitable would still have first bid on the aircraft ahead of others on the GOAL from outside J*.

There is no bogeyman in the GOAL concept. Same would apply if they decided to give the 787s to QFlink. All the current QFlink F/Os get to upgrade on it and then allocation after that is down to datal seniority from across the group. The 15 year Oxley/Impulse/J* driver trumps me for the gig. The 16 year QF driver trumps the 15 year Oxley/Impulse/J* driver, etc, etc.

The J* F/O who joins on 1 Apr 08- after the GOAL list is established- slots in behind all of the other players in the group. Therefore they'd be looking at upgrading to F/O on the 744 or perhaps another mainline type before they'd get a shot at command on J*. Again I think this is where the nay-sayers about AIPA and GOAL are coming into it. Any potential DEC doesn't want this to occur and so they're hammering hard at AIPA and QF mainline guys to prop up their own interests. Of course, you can argue that AIPA and QF mainline guys are also out to prop up their own interests but personally I'd prefer to look after those 3000+ QF group pilots who are currently IN the group before we worry too much about those who are yet to join. Note too that this is not about a 'b scale'- which I abhor- but it is all about choice! Ironic that J* markets itself as being all about choice whilst working overtime to prevent their crew from having it!

I hope that is making things clearer.

[speeeedy]

Led as Keg and Kremin have said, its simple:

Today the Dash 8 captain who has 15 years of seniority at Eastern and wants to take up a first officer position with QAL in a B737, he has no chance.

Wrong! He has access in a few years.

A second officer at QAL with two years' seniority there has bidding rights ahead of the Eastern captain.

The Dash 8 Capt is behind all current QF pilots for sure, but if he wants a QF 737 F/O slot now he would have to resign, come across and then wait 3-4 years as S/O before getting to the 737 (as he would still be behind all current QF pilots). So the GOAL is a MUCH better proposition for someone in his position than the status quo.

Also, what about the flip side? (you conveniently left this bit out)

A 2 year F/O with Eastern has access to a Dash Command ahead of the 15 year F/O from QF - so no disadvantage for the Qlink guys there.

Got it now?

The 2 Year F/O with Jetstar has access to a JQ320, 330 or 787 command ahead of a 15 year F/O or 20 year Captain from QF as well. So the J* guys are not disadvantaged either.

See?

As for the argument about freezes, will someone get stuck somewhere? Yes, sometimes they will but only for 5 years or so.

But people are stuck to a much greater degree right now....

Are there regional guys that would like to fly a 737, A320, 744? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.

Are there QF S/Os & F/O's that would like to go up a rank and fly a Dash 8 or A320? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.

Are there Jetstar guys who would like to get a payrise and a better lifestyle in mainline? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.

These people are stuck, but they are stuck forever. With a GOAL waiting just 5 short years will give them a WORLD of choice.

So, led your questions have always been answered, care to answer a few that you have ignored for the last week from various posters?

“What is this terrible history you have with AIPA that you speak of when it’s obvious from your previous posts that you have been at Jet* for a maximum of 13 months? (In your ‘previous post’ dated 21 Dec 2006 you discuss the lateness of your Emirates January 2007 roster.”

So what is the answer Led Zep? Have 2 groups bidding for flying by trying to undercut each other?

If you think that AIPA has the power to steal your precious planes, then wouldn't they just do it, why would they go to the huge expense in money and effort to get you on board just to shaft you later?

If AIPA is going to be a bad thing for Jetstar pilots, why is management on all sides fighting to ensure they are not involved?

Time to answer......

[Keg]

Great examples speeedy. The questions are valid too!

[Capt Kremin]

Sherm. All current Jetstar FO's would get a command slot, or at least the opportunity for a command slot before anyone else. Then the command slots (or FO slots) go to whoever has the datal seniority in the Qantas Group.

The current Jetstar pilots are always senior to any Qantas group pilots on the Jetstar list. It is exactly the way it worked with TN.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Speedy,

perfect.

[Alien Sex God]

I'm working towards my CPL and hopefully one day will get a job with an Australian airline. I get very disheartened when the likes of Led Zeppelin and Genex talk down the industry. From what I can see is that the Qantas pilots are trying to help the Jetstar ones but the Jetstar ones don't seem to want to improve their current position. When I see the petty crap that comes out on this forum, I feel that I really am wasting my money and should pursue another career because of what Jetstar and some of there pilots aspire to.

[fender]

ASG.
I agree,
You should get out of the industry.

[Alien Sex God]

See what I mean.

[flyingins]

ASG

Led and Genex aren't the only Jetstar pilots posting on this forum.

Many Qantas pilots do want to help Jetstar pilots, even if only because it will help them too. That is healthy.

Many Jetstar pilots want to be helped, even if it will also help Qantas pilots. That is also healthy.

If you really want to be a pilot in an Australian airline, there's a good chance that one day you'll join the Qantas group. If the Group Opportunity Allocations List becomes a reality, you won't get to choose which bit of the company you'll work for. You'll be assigned - maybe even to Jetstar.

My advice; Don't play favourites, listen before speaking and if you do have to speak, ensure what you say isn't petty crap either.

[speeeedy]

further to flyingins,

I would say that Led and Genex are not Jetstar pilots at all.

Genex is management with J* or he is with Oldmeadow consulting.

Led is OS and is eyeing off a DEC with J* but has to wait until his super is maximised before he leaves EK. Or maybe is a DEC with J* now, either way unrepresentative of the J* pilot.

The mates I have in Jetstar think along the same lines as flyingins, as long as no one gets screwed then why not have unity and a GOAL?

The GOAL would be prefect for someone like ASG, he may not get a choice where he starts, but after a few years he will have choices that we never dreamed of.

[genex]

Oh dear Speedy......

Let me remind you these forums are about argument and debate, not about personalities. If you want to PM me I will let you know exactly who I work for. and its not who you think.

And as for the GOAL stuff.....someone does get screwed along the way.....only its not you and me and not right now....its all the jobs that might have been. And thats the sad bit.....some of you, in the midst of your hatred for Jetstar and those with opposing views.....or even contributing views....can't see that some people have different ideas. Me....being older, yet having had the best of the industry at home and mostly overseas.....I think that growth and commands at reasonable salaries is worth offering to most folks. Dull, staid but reliable slow growth on old aircraft is OK for others. I just don't see why B744 drivers could possibly morally justify the demise of an entire airline and hundreds of current and future jobs just to protect the near future for themselves.

But as dear Kremin (is that Latin for criminal?) says....maybe that's all drivel (he said dribble about my posts but I think he's faking an inability at English and meant drivel. Aren't all Sky Gods well educated?).

[Nuthinondaclock]

Genex,

The thing is that senior pilots who fly the B744 are probably the least affected by any of this. By the time it has any effect on them they’d either be long gone or senior enough that they’d be above the mess you’re helping to create by inciting division. That you think these guys spend their days trying to plot the downfall of Jet* is laughable. That you think they would be in any position to actually achieve this is beyond belief. Despite the line you keep pushing Qantas isn’t full of staid old ‘Sky Gods’ sitting there lording over all from a B744. Most blokes there are like any other group of pilots who want to continue their chosen profession, live a reasonable lifestyle and get fair remuneration for it. The stereotype you keep trying to perpetuate is just not correct.

For someone who claims to have enjoyed the best years of aviation you seem to be spending a lot of effort dismantling the very terms and conditions that enabled this and appear to be going out of your way to deny that future to others. It really doesn’t add up?

Nuf.

Ps: Gotta run. I'm late for golf as I lost track of time in my wine cellar deciding what boat I'm going to buy that will look better than my kids North Shore schoolfriends parent's...................NOT! :yuk:

[speeeedy]

its all the jobs that might have been.

Care to explain how a GOAL is going to suddenly cause the demise of Jetstar and the associated jobs?

AIPA is on record saying that they accept that an LCC has to have different T & C's, so it won't be pushing for the LH award.

What a GOAL gives is everyone access to good T&C's eventually. In other words... CHOICE... Start in Qlink, Jetstar or an S/O in Qf and from there choose fast promotion with less pay (LCC or QLink) and later gain the T&C's in mainline (if you want).

A GOAL is good for everybody, you and I have no idea what the aviation world will look like in 15 years time, if Jetstar continues to grow at rates like this and QF is stagnant, then it is good for our younger pilots in QF, because eventually they'll get a look in (won't make much difference to me).

What if the LCC model starts to falter, or at least contracts a bit, and mainline expands? Again the Jetstar guys get to share in the spoils.

Why do I have to PM you to find out who you work for? I know already, it is obvious you are management, not because you oppose my view (so does Led, fistfokker and heaps of others) its because the tone of your posts show you encourage the divisions that exist now, and want them to stay.

Only management would be happy with this division, no line pilot, no matter whether pro or anti-AIPA, pro or anti-GOAL would encourage such division. :=

[Don Diego]

AIPA simply were not interested in the regionals until the creation fo J* and since then they have been your new best friends.Management did not make that division Speeedy your mates on the CoM did and now they seem to be suffering from amnesia.You see Speeedy the regionals have nothing that you want or need,this unity line from AIPA is a facade to get control of all Qantas group pilots to shore up their own flagging fortunes.Remember it was Westwood who broke the unity back in early 80's and that is the way it has been since because that is the way AIPA wants it.The goal is another distraction that has been put out there to project an image altruism,fact is AIPA has no idea of how they are going to convince GD to accept it and until that approval it is nothing more than an if,but or maybe.
P.S.With the previous quote,Woods does not contest the sentiment of what Duggan said only the words he used.

[Led Zeppelin]

Thanks Keg and others for the clarity of explanation re GOAL as you guys see it.

Thanks for the personal concern as to my employment status - rest assured I am in Jetstar.

I will also tell you that a number of the JQ pilot group ARE suspicious of AIPA motives and believe that AIPA still regards JQ pilots as second class citizens. It seems pretty clear to a lot of us that the AIPA actions as described in the AIRC did occur (emails, attempt to delay ETOPS approval, etc) and that these actions were done in the interests of the AIAP mainline pilots only and stuff the JQ pilots. You are seen as bullies waving a big stick over the aviation community.

Gaining someone's trust is relatively easy. Break that trust and it takes 10 times as long to regain it. This is the way a lot of us feel and why some see the AFAP as a better (but not necessarily preferred longer term) option in the current climate.

For the above reasons, this EBA 4 may be appealing to a big percentage. I guess we'll know the result of that later today.

Regarding the future, my personal view is we should start our own JQ association, but there are so many different views on this that makes it difficult to know if it's realistically achievable.

It would be in AIPA COM's interest to take a much more conciliatory and "softly softly" approach if you wish to seriously get back the trust of JQ pilots. You need MUCH clearer and complete explanations as to ALL of the implications involved. As much as the GOAL explanation was detailed earlier in this forum, this now has to come from AIPA at an official COM level.

AIPA also needs to explain what it intends to do if GOAL doesn't get up. This is perhaps the more interesting and significant industrial question if Jetstar LH expansion occurs over existing mainline routes. Just how "friendly" will AIPA be to us in that situation ??

[Chimbu chuckles]

So there must be someone who heard Woods' express views on EBA4/JPC several times recently...allegedly:ok:

Why the reticence to post them here?

For those who struggle with the psycology behind all this AIPA/J*/Qlink carryon I can only point you in the direction of many studies carried out on human nature going back to the 60s...at least one of which is on youtube from memory...I'll see if I can hunt it out and post a link.

Basically it revolves around any situation where you get an 'A' team and a 'B' team. The first experiments used uni students in the US and was set up to simulate a prison over an extended time frame. Weeks or months I cannot remember.

The experiment had to be stopped in the end because of the behaviour of those students who were put on the 'A' team (prison guards).

Think Abu Graib.

The same professor who carried out that experiment in the 60s is still studying the phenomenon and did a less extreme version in the UK.

Take 10 people and put them all together in a house and give them various tasks to carry out.

After several days pick 5 at random and designate them the 'A' team and the remainders designate the 'B' team, assign tasks then sit back and watch.

The change that comes over perfectly reasonable people is astounding...and quite frightening.

This is exactly what we have here with QF mainline designated the 'A' team and everyone else in the QF group is the 'B' team.

The exact same thing is tearing CX apart where you literally have 'A' scalers, 'B' scalers, 'C' scalers and freighter guys on probably an F scale.

I see subtle evidence of something similar happening where I work.

Human nature being what it is I would suggest it is an almost insurmountable.

Do management know this?

Almost certainly. That would be why, in my view, J* management want J* pilots united under a common EBA and they DO NOT want AIPA involved in any way shape or form...AFAP doesn't carry the same baggage.

[ruprecht]

This is perhaps the more interesting and significant industrial question if Jetstar LH expansion occurs over existing mainline routes. Just how "friendly" will AIPA be to us in that situation ??

Then the real question, Led, is just how friendly will the JPC be to AIPA in that situation?

Time will tell I guess.

ruprecht.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Here is part 1 of the Stanford Prison experiment in the 60s. Remember that these are merely volunteer students who have been divided into A team (guards) and B team (prisoners) and then the results were recorded without intervention...until it got too serious and it had to be halted.

This is an extreme example but it is instructive non the less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o0Nx31yicY

Edited to fix link.

[Nuthinondaclock]

CC,

I would counter that you have shown clearly the exact reason why management WANT Qantas Group pilots’ represented by different associations. It works totally to managements favour to have us in different teams hating each other. That’s what AIPA and a GOAL is trying to undo. I agree with Led’s sentiments here (I’m surprised......especially as he STILL won’t answer my polite and quite reasonable question) that it does take 10 times as long to regain broken trust. Again this works in managements' favour to the extent that it can use this prejudice to steer people in the direction they want, and away from something that is actually going to be beneficial to them.

Nuf.

[Chimbu chuckles]

You make a valid point....I think GD is capable of that, I don't accept JG is.

The main point remains. Mainline will always be the 'A' team and human nature near guarantees they will behave that way. Of course nothing like the extreme example shown above but if you look at the complaints virtually everyone not in mainline has against AIPA/a % mainline pilots (the skygod label does have some basis in fact even if overstated) you see this facet of human nature on display.

If you're QF mainline you're by default on the 'A' team...everyone else wasn't good enough to pass selection. This theme is a revolving door on Pprune.

It is simply human nature.

The end GAOL might rightly be viewed as attractive by the 'A' team, because deep down inside they believe they will benefit most - they are after all the 'A' team, but I am going to suggest human nature, let alone management resistance, indicates it could also be viewed as naive.

[Dropt McGutz]

Led, what did AIPA say to your questions at last Friday's briefing?

[Nuthinondaclock]

CC,

I am in mainline but I definitely don’t think that way in terms of the selection process. That process has nothing to do with the quality of pilot or person you are. It should also be stated that it’s not the average mainline pilot that has anything to do with the conduct or content of the process but rather the same sort of Professor that runs your aforementioned experiment.

I really don’t think the current AIPA heads are conforming to this ‘Team A’ mentality you speak of. (The previous regime?....more like it but I actually don’t think they thought there was ANYONE outside of ‘Team A’!) You need to be careful that if the situation has changed that you don’t continue to think as a downtrodden member of ‘Team B’ to your own detriment.

It’s been said before,

“As long as no one gets screwed then why not have unity and a GOAL?”
No one has yet argued anything that convinces me that anyone will get screwed here. (Except if you’re outside the Qantas Group and trying to get a quick DEC slot above ALL current QF Group employees.)

Nuf

[Captain Sherm]

Since no-one in the Qantas Group has any 777 time and the 787 is a common type rating wouldn't it make sense for Jetstar to get at least a handful of DEC 777 drivers to ensure the 787 introduction goes well? They can also no doubt train those mainline pilots lucky enough to get a slot on the 787 in a few years when the 787-9s come to Jetstar and the 787-8s start flying domestic routes.

I imagine there are other skills that such a few such 777 DECswould bring into Jetstar that would be an asset to the group as a whole. Things like ultra-long-range operations, extreme winter operations, routine cat 3b, 207 minutes ETOPS, polar operations etc.

Anyway, I presume from the deafening silence that everyone is happy with the EBA vote result and now you can all get on with flying.

[milkybarkid]

Since no-one in the Qantas Group has any 777 time and the 787 is a common type rating wouldn't it make sense for Jetstar to get at least a handful of DEC 777 drivers to ensure the 787 introduction goes well? They can also no doubt train those mainline pilots lucky enough to get a slot on the 787 in a few years when the 787-9s come to Jetstar and the 787-8s start flying domestic routes.

I imagine there are other skills that such a few such 777 DECswould bring into Jetstar that would be an asset to the group as a whole. Things like ultra-long-range operations, extreme winter operations, routine cat 3b, 207 minutes ETOPS, polar operations etc.


Someone like you, for instance, Sherm

[Rostov]

The silence is deafening. Almost 3 hours have passed since the Evote closed. This is strange. What the hell is going on? It cant be that hard to post that it's gone down again!:}

[Captain Sherm]

Ha ha......wings folded sadly

[Nuthinondaclock]

The following link is a presentation by Boeing on the 787

http://www.acay.com.au/~willt/tempbo...7flightops.pdf

No drooling guys!

Differences’ training courses on third last page:
Days for conversion to 787 from;
B777 - 5 days
B757/767 - 8 DAYS
B737 - 11 DAYS.

Sherm,
Airlines introduce new aircraft all the time. Most of the skills you mention certainly aren’t specific to the 787 or 777 but are bought across from flying any jet, Boeing or Airbus. The couple of days shorter course that a 777 pilot may have over any other is hardly significant, that is unless you’re a 777 pilot trying to get a DEC over the top of existing Qantas Group pilots.

Nuf.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Rostov you might be in for a surprise:ok:

[genex]

Chimbu may well be right. A little bird told me that by a good margin the result was excellent.

[Rostov]

Excellent for whom? Jetstar or the pilots:confused:

What did your little bird tell you? Or are you full of BS?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Why can't it be a good result for both?

Amazed no one has posted the result yet...ok I will.

58% Yes.

I think it will be seen in the fullness of time as a good result for all concerned.

[genex]

Your ideology is showing Rostov. Is there necessarily a divide between what's good for the airline and what's good for the pilots?

The little bird just smiled and said "excellent" that's all...I guess we'll find out what that means

[Rostov]

Yes that is my ideology. Do you think the last couple of EBA's agree with that? I do.

[DirectAnywhere]

How many were on AWAs and voted this time? Let me guess. About 12% worth? Disgusting....

[-438]

Interesting how all these 'interested observers' such as Chimbu know the result so early. Maybe their real interests will be revealed in time.

[Rostov]

58% yes is confirmed. What an absolute disgrace. Well done managers, I guess once again it will be a sweet Christmas bonus for you again out of the un-tapped Jetstar pilots pay kitty.

[maui]

Nuthinondaclock.

Does your source give any information on the line training requirement for each of the conversion categories?

Would the line training for an ex long haul 777 driver be the same as that for a short haul 737 for instance.

I wonder also what influence CASA might have, on the mix.

Maui

[tenretni]

Anyhow thats the way the cookie..... or in this case the profession..... crumbles!

What a shame!

Goodluck to all Jetstar pilots.

[Capt Kremin]

Five years now without access to collective bargaining. I wonder who this is good for?

[Nuthinondaclock]

Just watched the Stanford Prison Experiment on YouTube that Chimbu posted the link to recently. Interesting quote from the ‘Guard’ around the 04:50 mark of part 2:



“One if the surprising things to me was that there was so little that the prisoners did to support each other after we started our campaign of divide and conquer.”

Nuf.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Maui,

No it doesn’t. It was from a presentation Boeing gave to United Airlines pilots.

[Gingerbread]

For the information of Ppruners, the following has been posted on the Qantas pilots website by AIPA's President.

This is to announce that a 58% majority of eligible pilots have voted in favour of the Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2008.

91 per cent of all eligible Jetstar pilots participated in the ballot which closed today at 12 noon.

On behalf of myself and Management, I would like to sincerely thank all Pilots who participated in the vote. We are delighted that the new Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2008 has been voted favourably by the greater majority of Jetstar Pilots, both those on the existing EBA (Enterprise Bargaining Agreement) and those AWA pilots who wish to be now covered under the EBA.

We would also like to thank and acknowledge the involvement of both the Jetstar Pilots Association (JPA) and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP) who supported and were involved in the development of the successful Agreement.

We believe this new 5 year Agreement provides a positive and exciting future for our Pilot group.


Alan Joyce

Chief Executive Officer


Woods stated; "AIPA is concerned that Jetstar EBA 4 was revoted without effective consultation with Jetstar's pilots and the voting pool questionably extended via the admission of those on AWA's Nonetheless, a majority decision appears to have been validly determined.

Going forward, while I believe that AIPA is the most appropriate Association to represent all Qantas Group pilots and have no doubt that AIPA will soon represent a majority of Qantas Jetstar pilots irrespective, I have publicly stated that AIPA supports the industrial autonomy of Jetstar Pilots and would work collaboratively with AFAP to achieve consolidated representation for all Australian pilots."

Let's hope he can get the AFAP and the JPA to bury the hatchet.:ok:

[aulglarse]

AWA numbers are around 130 = 22% of the probable total vote.

Ginger, some of the voters know who to bury first!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Nuf I wish I could find a link to the recent, less extreme, experiment carried out in the UK. I think it would be more relevant to our professional situation.

It started off with 10-12 people, strangers, all flung together in a house and after several days, after they have built a team identity and started to form personal bonds, they are deliberately and strategically split into A and B and given exactly those labels and shirts to identify themselves...a uniform.

Within hours they are sitting at separate tables in the communal kitchen and within days team A develops an amazing sense of entitlement...that they somehow deserve the A label. Team B ends up being left with washing and other menial tasks...polishing shoes as an example...they have become second class citizens.

One couple who had actually developed a level of affection when they were all one group tries to go against this developing trend and is forcefully pulled into line by people who, while they had been quiet underachievers, bordering on losers, when the 12 were 1, suddenly became quite vicious 'leaders' when they had been inculcated with this sense of entitlement and power.

Where do we see that in our industry?:ugh:

The pressure put on the female member of A, who had the hots for the chap deliberately put in B, was enormous...not conforming to team A's sense of 'tribe' was deemed a HUGE threat to the tribe and was punished severely and quickly.

It rapidly, as in mere days, became VERY confronting to watch.

I wonder why this isn't taught in CRM?

Some readers probably think I have lost the plot...I encourage you to read up on this facet of human nature. Stuff that may have confused will fall into place.

It explains everything from the current reality of our industry to the Nazi death camps to Abu Graib, Guantanimo etc...even the USA's world view. We are team A and we are entitled to drop bombs on any team B people (virtually anybody) who piss us off sufficiently...oh and you're gonna love our form of democracy...whether you fecking like it or not.

This is the nuts and bolts of divide and conquer.

Has it been successfully used in our industry by management?

Beyond the wildest dreams of avarice.

Can it be undone?

Across the industry...or QF group...probably not.

But the Yes and No voters are facing a moment of choice.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Thanks for the compliment Chimbu but you're just not my type :=

:)

Particularly now you've admitted to being a Big Brother viewer. :yuk: There's somethings that you can never get over.

Nuf.

[fistfokker]

Five years now without access to collective bargaining. I wonder who this is good for?

Capt Kremlin, The EBA 2008 IS a collective union agreement. The AFAP is a signatory and a party to it. How more collective does it have to be? Let me guess.

[Transition Layer]

What's the old saying... "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all"

So that's what I'll do...

[Chimbu chuckles]

TL you make my point so eloquently.

[Night Hawk]

"The AFAP is a signatory" ...Oh well,I feel so much safer now!!! :yuk: :mad:

[TurbTool]

Oh well...what can you expect from a group of pilots who are predominantly made up of the rejects of every other airline in Australia - something about John West and tuna springs to mind.

TL you would be laughable except I think you are serious. I guess history will show who has the last laugh.

If I ever had any doubts about taking a job with J* you have eloquently dispelled them.

[titan uranus]

Lots of expert opinions as usual

Have worked here, overseas, now back here. I would suspect I have considerable more experience than the galactically stupid "Transition Layer"

Here's a thought... be like the rest of the nation who are gainfully employed getting on on with their lives and not sitting at their computer desks like geeks on some stupid forum calling eachother names trying to belittle one another. [I]Would Transition Layer call me a reject to my face I wonder?? Or is this the only medium he feels comfortable with?:rolleyes:

Could someone please tell me where the Aviation Utopia all and sundry here seem to be seeking exists? Because it isn't in this country, and it wasn't o/s? Maybe this just is as good as it gets, so I think I'll spend some time with the family and refine the hobby (which isn't usually reading this garbage):*

[Nuthinondaclock]

Not cool TL, just not cool.

[ruprecht]

I guess the Mainline EBA negotiations are going to be fun now.:eek:

ruprecht.

[Transition Layer]

I'm just so so friggin' over it all...don't know what else to say fellas!

[genex]

Transition...and those who have read those few cruel words he penned....

This thread and many like it has been characterized by robust, even over the top debate and name calling. But I think we all know where the bounds are. What you said was not only untrue....even worse it was vicious. Airmen and women of any worth are bound together by more than employer, union or background.

I commend that thought to you. And the thought that by a few keystrokes you can retract what you said....and you should.

[Reeltime]

Those thoughts of yours genex, coming from anyone else, may just have had some relevence.

[Keg]

i've got to say that I'm surprised and disappointed with Transition Layer's comments. He's not normally quite so hot-headed. I'm sure that once he's had a chance to think through his comments some more then he'll come to his senses and offer an apology.

No doubt there are pilots in J* who were rejected by QF, AN or DJ- just as there are pilots in QF who were rejected by some/all of the others. I must admit that having been knocked back for a lot of jobs earlier in my life that it certainly did change my perspective on what i'd be prepared to accept. The more knock backs, the less I was prepared to work for to get 'the' job- any job...and I'm not talking flying here. That's not a comment on my actual worth or level of skill, it is however a comment on the perception I had of myself at the time and it came as a result of others reinforcing that negative perception that I obviously wasn't very worthy.

Changing gears slightly, it should be an interesting bunch of flight decks in J* over the next little while considering that 4:10 said 'no' to the deal. I'd lay money on the fact that you won't be able to find 6:10 line drivers who admit they said 'yes'- just as you couldn't find the same number in QF who voted 'yes' to EBA7 a couple of years back.

To summarise the stance I see it from a mainline AIPA supporter. J* crew, you've voted 'yes'. You can have AFAP respond to your EBA for the next five years. You've now got absolutely nothing to lose by giving AIPA a go in the short to medium term. Some of us will be disappointed that you blinked- just as we were disappointed when you said 'yes' to a seriously crap deal on the widebody variation to your EBA- but in th end it was your decision to make. Having voted 'yes' to EBAs that I subsequently regretted and felt with hindsight I should've voted 'no' I can well understand the process that leads you to feel that the 'yes' is the best way to clear the stress, messiness and general angst that has accompanied these issues. That this stress and messiness is created largely by your own management should be something that you reflect upon over the next five years when it comes around again.

So let's put the crap aside now and decide to work together. You have nothing to lose and five years to decide if AIPA is working in your best interests or not.

[ruprecht]

Airmen and women of any worth are bound together by more than employer, union or background.

Really? I know some complete c***s in aviation.:confused:

Is it something that flows through me, like The Force? Do dentists and bricklayers have their own mythical bond as well?

Please........:rolleyes:

[Led Zeppelin]

Like it or not, the vote today -and Keg, I'll look at it as half full (6/10) rather than half empty (4/10),-is (or "appears to be" as a missive from AIPA has said) a valid endorsement of the EBA 4.:ok:

Those in JQ who are not "attached" to the mainline umbilical cord, should wait with interest to see AIPA's reaction if QF management rejects GOAL, particularly if it's in an environment where J* is expanding internationally over routes and with aircraft that QF mainline drivers might otherwise have expected to go to them. A global economic downturn would create such an environment. That's when the true colours of the participants and the absolute fragility of any deal with AIPA will be exposed.

[time4change]

Hi guys any chance of finding out what the new contract is ??

[emergen]

Noodles - As a relatively recent J* F/O joiner, I was on an AWA and yes, I effectively voted to dump it and move to an EBA. Many in exactly the same position. This took precedence over the initial salary issues and the 5 year term of the EBA.

At least now, the vast majority are now on the one agreement. (I assume here that most would have elected to move from the AWA's). All we need to do now is sort out the representation issues to our advantage. It's all very confusing. :confused:

[Nuthinondaclock]

I agree with Emergen in that if I was on an AWA I too would surely have voted ‘Yes’ to get on an EBA. The fairness or morality of the re-vote using this tactic? Well, the vote probably should always have included ALL Jet* pilots in the first place but I guess management was hoping to get the vote result they wanted and still keep the group split with some on AWAs. That all Jet* pilots are now on the same EBA is certainly a big positive to have come out of this.

Whilst the AFAP is now party to this EBA Jet* pilots are still in a position to make their choice of their representation for the future. I urge you to consider this seriously. United professional representation and a GOAL should still be our long term target as pilots.

Led, you still don’t get it do you? What you’re effectively saying is that if/when Jet* pilots do flying that QF mainline guys thought they were going to get, that mainline pilots will be pissed off and Jet* guys will see that as their true colours. GENIUS! What reaction would you expect? How many times do you have to be told that IF we are not united and IF Jet* is used to the detriment of current mainline pilots then AIPA will be forced to protect the interests of those that it represents! They’ve made no secret of this. THAT IS THE ENTIRE SITUATION WE ARE TRYING TO PREVENT HERE. It’s not in the long term interests of any group of pilots to be used against each other. That is why management fought so hard to try and prevent AIPA having the legal right to represent all.

Oh yeah, while you’re here would you care to answer the question I’ve asked you so many times before? I’m sure you don’t need me to type it again. If AIPA has done the evil things you speak of, and you obviously don’t like them, surely you’d want to tell the other Jet* pilots so they don’t join their evil clutches? Maybe your comments were just a convenient line at the time?

Nuf.

[Led Zeppelin]

Nuf - Enuf of the smoke and mirror stuff old chap, and believe me, I get it EXACTLY.

You are asking us to be “united” with you on the one hand and yet on the other, after signing up to AIPA, if GOAL fails and we get to a scenario where Jetstar pilots are actually assigned flying that the mainline guys thought they were going to get, what do you or AIPA expect Jetstar pilots to do ? Refuse to operate assigned flying or allow QF mainline to take this flying because “big brother” has spoken? It’s an unworkable scenario where the principal vested interest group (QF mainline) within AIPA would end up shafting their J* “brothers” in order to “to protect the interests of those that it represents!” :mad:

This is purely a cynical exercise in getting QF mainline pilots access to J* flying if mainline flying heads south. Nothing , repeat, nothing more.

I just don’t think all the implications have been thought through.

[fearcampaign]

I have never read so much tosh in all my life.

Sadly egos on both sides of the fence will sink this potential synergy.
Has any one looked at the BALPA model which represents pilots of different airlines both legacy and low cost.
Each airline has its OWN ELECTED COUNCIL but shares the GROUP resources.
It is not dissimilar to the structure the Qantas GROUP uses.
It does stop a DIVIDE and CONQUER environment though.

Are Jetstar pilots smart enough to ignore the company spin? I fear not sadly.Look at the 457 visas or for example,the LAMES they were bringing out of the grave to break the engineers stop work.Let us not jump at shadows.

Alan Joyce and Qantas will NOT want a UNITED group. Due to the stupidity of pilots they will get their way.

[No Idea Either]

Can someone give me a yes or no answer,
Did the J* troops approach AIPA when they were first formed, and did AIPA knock them back?

[iceblock]

So it seems to be a done deal.

Looking forward, what will new hires be offered from now until AWA's are no more?

[Transition Layer]

Led Zeppelin,

...particularly if it's in an environment where J* is expanding internationally over routes and with aircraft that QF mainline drivers might otherwise have expected to go to them. A global economic downturn would create such an environment.

That is where you are wrong. Whilst a global economic downturn would hurt all carriers, you can bet your bottom dollar it is the likes of Jetstar who would suffer first. The battlers flying to Phuket/Vietnam/Honolulu on their first ever overseas holiday will no longer be filling the seats of your shiny 787s. The domestic Jetstar market would cop a massive beating too.

I don't wish such a scenario on anyone as it would hurt us all, but in my opinion you're way off the mark.

TL

[hotnhigh]

Fear,already discussed previously prior to the vote.It would be a nice way to go but too utopian for the likes of many.
Led, unfortunately this whole ugly saga rolls on. You shouldn't be gloating about the mainline guys. One thing the GOAL would have done would have been to minimise the risk of having the scenario of what occured to mainline thru Jetstar Int happening to jetstar int itself.
Gee, imagine if qantas made an offer for njs/rex/? and then offered them the 787 at a further reduced rate.
Not possible???? You blokes have proven three times now that scenario is indeed possible. Good luck with the command Led.:ugh:

[drshmoo]

Thanks for keeping the T & Cs bar low!
Do you guys realise that you'll be some of the lowest 787 drivers in the world?

But its new and its shiny and the other mob dont got em!:ugh:
Good luck

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2988634.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193CC300C081D9F47005EEA946A69E538A1807CF015D6 C4DB94E30A760B0D811297

I love this photo - its just sums up the next 5 years

[mmmbop]

To the Jet* 58%.

Congratulations on allowing lies and fear to decide your vote. You have now proven yourselves to be the dumbest group of pilots in the world.

Emergen and all AWAers. No really, please explain to me how you have the right to vote on an EBA you are not part of. You were the 134 pawns who have been manipulated to produce a result beneficial only to management. And too dumb to realise it.

Enjoy your next 5 YEARS. AJ et al must be laughing their arses off.

M

[time4change]

could someone please give basic run down of new EBA $$ ect

[Nuthinondaclock]

Led,

One minute you refer to unity as idealistic and naive and the next it’s a cynical exercise. It can’t be both. You accuse me of smoke and mirrors when you can’t give a straight answer to a simple question. When early in this topic you talked about this terrible history you’ve experienced at AIPA’s hands as a Jet* pilot, and it becomes obvious from a simple check of your previous posts that you were in EK as recently as December 2006, I put it to you that it’s you who is being deceptive. But relax, no Qantas pilot is trying to (or would ever be able to if this is set up correctly) get a command in Jet* before you. (For what it’s worth I already have a command.)

The GOAL would simplify fair promotional advancement as Qantas Group pilots and whilst highly desirable is not an essential part of the process to prevent one group being used against each other. That comes from the structure of the association. Again, Zep, it’s been said to you on many occasions that the Jet* pilots would run as their own entity in the same way as the S/H pilot group and L/H pilot group do. AIPA has stated both verbally and in print that Jet* flying is for Jet* pilots first. They can’t dictate where Qantas places the 787s, or any other new type for that matter. Your group maintains its own power and ultimately could tell mainline pilots to stick it if they tried to go against you.

The company may try and block a GOAL but they can’t stop you from being represented by AIPA and it’s this they have desperately tried to stop. I believe that if we can get the representation sorted out then the companies divide and conquer strategy would be defeated and there would be no downside to a GOAL from their point of view.

Nuf.

[Rostov]

mmmbop,
That would have to be the most accurate, and clearly the best post I have ever read on Pprune.
To have personally voted this EBA down twice and being a member of the Fed's of which I have resigned in disgust and joined AIPA I am ashamed of the 58% and the fact that AWA pilots where used to secure the vote by allowing them to short circuit their own AWA to join collective EBA.
SHAME SHAME SHAME 58%
You are weak.:mad:

[aulglarse]

mmmbop-agree but don't think the other 42%( the first majority ) are dumb at all! So 130 AWA voters say yes ( mainly for job security ) means without them the same outcome as the first NO vote would have resulted in another NO and to a greater margin.

NUF, well said.

Rostov, agree with your sentiments.:ugh::ugh:

time4change-have a look at other posts/threads on JQ T & C's. This will take too long to type here.

LED, what do you want for the pilot group? Being this paranoid is bad for your health-seriously! You appear to be very passionate about the past and show contempt to future unity. What FORWARD direction do you envisage for Jq crew-old and new?

AIPA has screwed up in the past-so have we. Endorsing the previous EBA re A330 flying, look back now and wonder why/how? WE ALL make mistakes and lessons that have to be learnt. So now AIPA has shifted into gear, become more flexible and adjusting to the times. They have alot more questions to answer but at least there is direction.

[Pundit]

How tragic the AFAP is involved. How many of the JPC are AFAP members? - Would they be prepared to declare themselves? At least the AIPA guys have enough balls to declare themselves.

[utedrivingpilot]

and den...........

[VH-JJW]

How unsuprising.

A few short weeks ago Jetstar pilots were getting sore backs from all the congratulatory slapping from their mainline 'brothers'

Now, after a (slightly) improved deal is put up and 58% of the TOTAL PILOT GROUP who CHOSE to vote have approved it, they are back to being Monkeys.

Cmon, admit it, skin deep down you really wanted to say that all along TL, dr et al....... didn't you...

I guess for the few non JQ non QF people here you need to read between the lines, what is really pi$$ing some of the vocal (and abusive) mainline guys off is that the little rag tag bunch of monkeys down the road refuse to swallow AIPA propoganda. Do what you are told and we like you, otherwise we will revert back to name calling.:D

Sorry Keg, I quite liked your post, but with the likes of TL and Drs batting for your team I fear the whole side is brought down.

[VH-JJW]

BTW, I thought the second vote by DJ drivers got up by only 54%.

Hmmmmm.

[blow.n.gasket]

Does anyone out there in P-Prune land actually know what the legalities are regarding AWA signatories voting on an EBA?
I heard the last time something along these lines occured it ended up in front of a full bench of the IRC. Result ,"not allowable".

Any "no" voters out there want to grieve this?
Would AFAP wish to support any No voters if they wished to pursue this, since they are signatories to the EBA?:rolleyes:

[max autobrakes]

No Idea EitherCan someone give me a yes or no answer,
Did the J* troops approach AIPA when they were first formed, and did AIPA knock them back? Today 12:30


NIE ,I think you will find it was the IPC (Impulse Pilots Council) that approached AIPA back ,just before the birth of JetStar.
I'm led to believe the AIPA President of the time who said" not interested" went on to explain that legally AIPA couldn't cover them .,.He then went on to become Chief Pilot. (I'm also led to believe he was none too diplomatic in the passing of this information)

If I'm not mistaken there have been something like 3 Presidents of AIPA since then ,that's 3 generations of different thinking in AIPA. What do you think the answer would be if the same question was asked today now that AIPA is legally allowed to represent JetStar pilots, or are you one of those people who are happy to not let the facts get in the way of a good story and blame the son for his father's deeds?.

[time4change]

thanks man I have a copy of old contract just wondering what entry level pay is now?cant find any info on new EBA

[maui]

Max

And your position on the apology to our indigenous cousins, is?

M

[max autobrakes]

and whats the spot price for eggs in China Maui ?
Your point being???????

[aulglarse]

time4change-f/o 55% (first 12 months)then 60% of captain approx $80k base + retention pay due next year then every 2 years(2009 & 2011). O/time tied to base (3% increase annually). 50% Credit for paxing, extra days off =10/11 days off per month.

[maui]

Max

Sins of the father, dear boy.

Maui

[maui]

Max

Interestng that you saw fit to withdraw your comment, at the same time you responded to me.

M

[genex]

JJW said it all......

"I guess for the few non JQ non QF people here you need to read between the lines, what is really pi$$ing some of the vocal (and abusive) mainline guys off is that the little rag tag bunch of monkeys down the road refuse to swallow AIPA propoganda. Do what you are told and we like you, otherwise we will revert back to name calling"

Looking from the outside I have to say that the collective AIPA spleen venting here since the vote has been both horrific and cathartic....at least finally AIPA members have outed themselves.

And by the way.....I never specially liked AWAs....having refused a "contract" in 1989. Where the heck do AIPA representatives get off saying that it is morally wrong for a pilot on an AWA to vote to join an EBA?

[time4change]

hmmmm not flash how is that better than last contract?

[aulglarse]

It's not really but I forgot to include the perfomance bonus which will look good this year I dare say...a guess is not worth putting up here on this site.

[Led Zeppelin]

...Unless it's done the AIPA way it can't be done at all.

I must remember to do things the AIPA way,
I must remember to do things the AIPA way,
I must remember to do things the AIPA way,
I must remember to do things the AIPA way,

There - I feel much better now. NOT:D

[Nuthinondaclock]

Genex,

It's far from a collective venting of AIPA's spleen. There's 2500+ members of AIPA and less than a handfull have vented.

Led,

That last post was not much better than TL's.

Nuf.

[ruprecht]

I'm willing to bet that a majority of the members of AIPA don't even know this site exists. Fewer still would read it regularly, and only a handful would post here.

Representative? I think not.

To take a few unnecessary, unhelpful and insulting comments from some of the posters here and extrapolate that to represent the views of the members of AIPA is drawing a long bow indeed.

[jakethemuss]

Hey MPPGF,

Jake you are are gutless wonder !

You hide behind your non de plume here on pprune.
If you have anything to do with the Jetstar EBA you would be a Jetstar pilot and have access to the the Jetstar webgroup.If that is the case why don't you air your views where it matters and not on this public forum.
The guy you are denigrating at least has the balls to stand behind what he say's , unlike you.
Oh and by the way, this forum is not as anonymous as you or Pete Conrad thinks.

Is this the same bloke who has just pulled all his economics theory and other insights into world affairs off the internal website (used to attempt to scare people into thinking the sky was falling and we should vote yes)?

Must be a big set of balls he has. I would want him in front of me in the trenches just so I could shoot him in the face as he turned to run.

What a disgrace!

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Thanks to the 58% who sold out their mates as well as the next crop of FOs. Jake you are right. That guy is unbelievable!!!!.

Dm

[Captain Sherm]

Douglas (et al).....

Continuing in this theme is eroding whatever goodwill there might have been between AIPA and Jetstar pilots. The previous page has a post with a monkey photo on it which may well go down in history as the defining moment at which an permanent and impassable abyss opened up between the Qantas pilot groups. It is probably way to late to undo the damage now but someone from your side of the fence could try.

As I see it, at any time in the future where the idea of GOAL or a single pilot union or any initiative at all from AIPA comes up....these recent post EBA posts....and THAT photo....will damn any hope of serious discussion and credibility. Someone's spleen just cost the whole pilot group heaps over the long term. And yet people like you somehow blame 58% of the Jetstar pilots.

"But your Honour...I had to beat her. If she hadn't misbehaved I wouldn't so it's her fault. She asked for it"

[jakethemuss]

Sherm,

If your life is determined by posts on this website, it must be a beauty!

Take the blue one, it makes you HAPPY, not HORNY.

:)

[Captain Sherm]

Jake

Because I'm a nice guy I will assume that you aren't in fact an infantile pampered fool, in a gene pool full of such examples....and instead believe that you were having a good natured go at me in the frank and friendly manner charactersistic of well educated gentlemen who have travelled widely and seen the world through all sorts of perspectives. Hope I'm right.

I have a great life. No pills....just fun.Prune is but a flyspeck on the wallpaper...but when I see venom and spleen coming from the mouths of those who days ago wanted to be best friends to everyone....I simply had to write something. I could as they say....do no less.

You had a chance to add your objections to THAT photo and you, by your silence instead assented to it. You should be ashamed.

[jakethemuss]

Long bow Sherm.

Why do people always assume silence to be tacit approval? Why not assume that it is just choosing to ignore an ill thought post? I feel no need to comment because I know how stupid it is (there, I've commented, feel better).

The pilots in this country will be the losers in the current situation because they are poorly led. On one side is a megalomaniac who listens only to hired help and the voices in his head and on the other are two hs beens who consistently show that they are prepared to sign anything to attempt to remain relevant and are trying to see in retirement.

It will require generational change for anything to advance. But by then it may be too late.

P.S. Don't assume the intelligence level of the fellow traveller is anything but average. You will be dissappointed. (Think Sentinel, Budplan, etc. etc.):ok:

[Capt Kremin]

Sherm, as far as I am aware, Dougas Mcdonell is a Jetstar pilot. I think you will also find that the monkey photo, poor taste that it is, is actually based around the theme of peanuts.

[speeeedy]

One photo posted by one member of AIPA (and how do we even know that for sure?) does not mean AIPA's agenda is now revealed.

It is Idiocy at its finest to label an organisation of 2500 people (made up IMHO of at least 2400 thoroughly decent and professional individuals) because 1 frustrated naughty boy posts 1 photo of a monkey. Thin skin perhaps.

For the record, I think Led is a goose, but I don't look at my mates (or for that matter those I don't know) from Jetstar any differently since reading his crap. Can I ask the same in return for the Mainline pilots?

The fact is that the Jetstar guys DID stand up for themselves in this second vote.

Remove the AWA voters (because, who in their right mind would not vote to get off the AWA?) and the result was a bigger NO vote than before. A hollow victory perhaps, but one that speaks volumes to me.

WELL DONE JETSTAR PILOTS :D :D :D

I think you have spoken loud and clear, but it is still a shame that Genex and his buddys will think this is a overwhelming approval of this EBA, rather then seeing it as a minority liking the EBA, and another minority wanting to get job security. In this case 2 minorities make a majority.

The management (and Oldmeadow) would not allow the AWA pilots to vote the first time because they had every intention of welshing on their very thin promise to get them off AWA's or at least hire more DEC on individual contracts.

Now, to get the vote through they have made this very cynical move, I can't believe that Led and his mates can't see it for what it is, but such is life.

I am comfortable that the majority of J* pilots know exactly what happened here.

I am very comfortable that the majority of AIPA pilots, and more importantly the AIPA President and Committee know exactly what happened here.

Now the real question. Can anyone state categorically that it is legal for those not covered by an EBA to vote for a replacement of it?

Because, whilst I accept that the AWA pilots were voting for EBA 4 which they would be part of, they were also (and this is important) voting to replace EBA 3, which they WERE NOT covered by. := :=

Me thinks there might be a problem here! Anyone care to grieve this?

[fearcampaign]

What a disgrace,

How could a group of professionals act in such a stupid fashion?
We let Oldmeadow spin and lies cloud what should have been an easy decision.Unity of group pilots that the company clearly wanted to stop.

That the few "usual suspects" continue to in fight saddens me.We look extremely foolish to the outsider.

Australian pilots have more of a chip on their shoulders than any pilot body in the world.
All the old 89 bull****, AIPA,AFAP did this, JPC did that,.Tit for tat.Tosh.

Smart people learn from the mistakes of the past and keep stock of what the real issues are.We let ourselves get played off between each other.

A fantastic win for the Qantas consultants.Sadly I expected it.
Pilots are indeed stupid.The precedent has been set......:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Captain Sherm]

Speeedy....have no idea on the legality of the AWA people voting, tho of course would support their moral right to get onto an EBA should they choose. I am sure if they had all voted NO AIPA would have accepted their moral right to vote!

But as for the NO vote.....mate of mine who works inside JQ said (and I think he'd know) that there were 91 added people eligible to vote and the YES vote went up by 94, the NO vote declined by 11. Balance is 8 additional abstainers. Overall 43 abstained. Even if they'd all (the abstainers) voted NO, the EBA would still have passed, 53% to 47%.

Anyway...I'm sure the figures will go public soon and someone can check this.

[mppgf]

Jake,


The point of my previous post was that if you are a Jetstar pilot with access to the webgroup than you should really publish your concerns and thoughts on that forum and not here in a spineless fashion.Try standing behind what you say if you feel so strongly about it.

[The Professor]

Sorry about the double post.

[The Professor]

Some observations from someone not involved in the airline industry in Australia:

The dogs of free market competition have finally been released upon the airline industry in Australia. The issues being debated here are exactly the same as the issues being debated in the US, Canada and Europe. It is not a debate about QF and Jetstar. The industry in Australia is a microcosm of the industry worldwide.

Qantas pilots would have nothing to fear if they were providing their employer with true value for money. Do you think pilots at SWA are constantly jumping at shadows?

The forces at play for the labor base employed by an incumbent carrier are vastly different from the forces at play for those employed by a startup carrier. Note that I did NOT refer to LCC.

Quite simply, the conditions of service enjoyed by the staff at an established carrier such as QF are the result of half a century of industrial fat gathering around the edges, something that does not hobble a startup. Only the ignorant would expect the conditions of service at a startup carrier to be aligned with those of a legacy carrier.

Jetstar provides Qantas with a mechanism for lowering labor costs and changing customer expectations that cannot be achieved in the mainline carrier due to rigid but often outdated beliefs and work practices.

The reality is that Jetstar provides a buffer to QF that permits the overblown cost structures to continue while carriers such as Thai, Emirates and Virgin Blue nip at their heals. This practice is very common among legacy carriers.

[speeeedy]

Sherm,

AIPA posted some figures which said:

The Yes votes increased by 114.
The No vote increased by 8.
Total AWA pilots = 134.

91% voted (same % as last vote).

We'll see which numbers are right.

As for the legalities. I don't think it is sour grapes, it was obvious before the vote that the AWA voters were an "interesting" addition.

If the Majority of people covered by EBA3 do not wish it to be replaced by the new one, why is their opinion not of primary importance? That is the fundamental point.

Essentially this vote has allowed future pilots 'yet to be covered' to vote, why not get 1000 GA guys to vote as they may be covered by that EBA one day.

I just think it has a certain smell to it, and requires an answer.

For those who are happy with this voting irregularity, I have one question: "Why weren't the AWA pilots voting the first time?"

[standard]

Jetstar provides Qantas with a mechanism for lowering labor costs and changing customer expectations that cannot be achieved in the mainline carrier due to rigid but often outdated beliefs and work practices.


Reading between the lines, what is evidently true, given the recent vote, is that Jetstar provides Qantas with a mechanism to undercut ML guys and sell themselves rediculously and selfishly short of the work practices ie, pay and conditions that mainline, and the entire airline industry have managed to acheive. Thus setting an all time low benchmark on pay and conditions!!!. All this whilst looking down the barrell of a pilot shortage and for 5 years!!!!!

Good on ya to those guys that voted NO, regardless the representation you choose. I feel for you having to sit (for what will now be rediculous TOD's at Sh*thouse pay rates) next to the clowns that voted YES. Enjoy the long sectors, days away and peanuts.

[standard]

why not get 1000 GA guys to vote as they may be covered by that EBA one day.


2 reasons, there probably isnt 1000 guys left in GA, and secondly, they wouldnt want to take the pay cut :)

[Capt Kremin]

Maybe all the mainline guys who have the ability to go to J* via the MOU should have been given a vote as well?

[fearcampaign]

Professor,

It is indeed true that full service carriers have higher costs than those of low cost airlines.Your post is poorly argued and in my eyes a "wind up".

To blame pilot salaries as the make or break difference to the Qantas group shows your lack of understanding of basic airline operations.Obviously you have little grasp of different business models given the lack of depth of your argument.

As a full service carrier the costs are higher due to cleaning of A/C on turnarounds,increased catering costs for business class and economy, amenities, provisions for valet parking etc etc.The extra yield compensates for this.

LCCs rely on high frequency flights with short turnarounds.Food is charged for and cleaning is done by cabin crew on transit.Ticket sales are by majority internet based which lowers costs.Ticket protections are not equal to full service carriers either.

Full service airlines target high yielding customers and the business model is therefore different.
Below is a quote from Geoff Dixon on Lateline business with Alan Kohler.

GEOFF DIXON: You've got to understand, the Qantas mainline operations also earns a much bigger margin than the Jetstar. Jetstar is a low cost airline and a low fare airline, and that's quite different. Qantas is a medium cost airline. Obviously we have a different product, we put more money into that product but we get quite much larger fares for business and first class travelling.

To further provide rational debate I provide further company information.

The company says by the beginning of next year the Qantas Group will have a lower cost base than rival Virgin Blue. Qantas will get greater efficiencies when it introduces new aircraft and it's well down the road of restructuring its business, developing the freight and fleet ownership divisions and mooting a new, still unclear ownership structure for the frequent flyer program.

Professor you obviously know how to run an airline better than our CEO.

For your information Southwest pilots are paid more than both Qantas S/H pilots or Jetstar pilots.

A low cost airline model does not need to translate to poor pilot pay and conditions.In the case of Southwest the pilot terms and conditions are excellent along with morale.

The aim should be that all Qantas group pilots are represented by one united association.

Jetstar and Qantas pilots BOTH deserve good pay and conditions.We are all highly skilled and a profession in short supply.

Your divisive comments are not welcome here.:=:=

[The Professor]

“To blame pilot salaries”.

You will note that at no stage have I attempted to place “blame” on any employee group for anything.

“The make or break difference to the Qantas group”

No, I did not suggest that salary levels enjoyed by staff at QF would “make or break” the airline. Managers at Qantas, like any business, make decisions every day that are motivated by business reasons that have nothing to do with saving the airline. Qantas has been profitable despite having a high labor cost base and cutting pilot costs alone is probably not an imperative. But the stakeholders in Qantas have charged the CEO and his underlings with trimming the operating cost of the airline and this will inevitably involve reducing the cost of all labor groups. Where costs savings can be made, they will be made if possible. As I said, reducing the salary levels of pilots is not a “make or break” decision. However, National Jet, Virgin Blue and Jetstar have proven that there is room in the “new”market place for reducing the cost of cockpit crew to the business. This will occur.

“The Company says that by the beginning of next year the Qantas group will have a lower cost base than rival Virgin Blue”

This is pretty much what Dixon is expected to say to a business audience keen to see Qantas trimming costs. Do you really think QF will match the operating costs of Virgin Blue without some extensive creative accounting (which is precisely what Dixon is doing)?

“For your information, Southwest pilots are paid more than etc etc”

This little gem highlights the simplistic approach taken by most pilots when debating such an issue. I did not suggest SWA pilots were poorly paid, I did, however, refer to the value they provide their employer. These are two very different things. What do Qantas pilots provide Qantas that a more cost effective Jetstar pilot doesn't?

“Jetstar and Qantas pilots both deserve etc etc”

No. Wrong. Employees do not DESERVE anything except for the pay and conditions that the market place sees fit. The airline industry in Australia has for most of its history been a protected one and as such the market place has had little impact on the competitiveness of employees. These barriers have been virtually (but not entirely) removed and yet pilots such as yourself are naive enough to think you deserve a salary level as determined by . . . .yourself. Its not the strongest that survive, or the smartest.

Its the most adaptable.

[genex]

Four questions if anyone knows the answers.....

1. Did Southwest always pay top salaries or did that build up over time?

2. Do prospective Southwest pilots have to provide their own 737 type rating as a condition of employment?

3. How many hours a year do Southwest pilots fly?

4. Are Southwest pilots members of ALPA or do they have their own union suited to the needs of their business?

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

And a further one, how is the management/staff relationships at Southwest? :)

[genex]

That's a good question...I think we all, at least anecdotally, know the answer. I'd be guessing that management style aside the fact that the airline's CEO's have delivered consistent profitable growth and jobs has helped a lot. Still would be good to get answers to the other 4 questions though....

[Pixie Princess]

The company says by the beginning of next year the Qantas Group will have a lower cost base than rival Virgin Blue. Qantas will get greater efficiencies when it introduces new aircraft and it's well down the road of restructuring its business, developing the freight and fleet ownership divisions and mooting a new, still unclear ownership structure for the frequent flyer program.

Exactly, the GROUP ie. Jetstar + Qantas when combined have a resultant lower cost base than Virgin. That is no surprise!

I wonder how the situation would be now if Qantas had not started Jetstar? I would have thought that someone like Tiger would have been well established and as big or bigger than Jetstar. So what pressure would that have put Qantas mainline under? A lot more than what they fear from Jetstar?

Qantas has Jetstar as a vehicle to take on other low cost operators, Qantas mainline should be thankful of this, else it would be mainline under much greater cost pressure.

[Capt Kremin]

SWA pilots have to have a 737 endorsement before they are employed.

[Going Boeing]

Jetscabster

Most informed observers of the Oz aviation industry would agree with you in that it was essential for Qantas to start a LCC to fill a gap in the market that other operators could quickly fill - it certainly would have been easier for Tiger (& DJ would have greater market share) if Jetstar had not been established.

The main issue here is Pilot remuneration and Ts & Cs which is a separate issue as was very well stated by fearcampaign in his post. Fellow pilots understood that the Impulse pilots were forced to sign the first Jetstar agreement but the second agreement (widebody variation) involved no gun being held to the heads of Jetstar pilots. They voted in an award that very few of them were prepared to accept (& most of the guys now flying under that award really hate the conditions). This recent EBA was the Jetstar pilots chance to get decent remuneration as well as improved Ts & Cs (and to redeem themselves after the poor widebody decision) during a period of industrial strength and with the support of the rest of the Qantas Group pilots.

Sadly, they succumbed to Oldmeadow tactics:- 1. Fear - the (empty)threat of 457 visa DECs, 2. Short Term Greed - the temptation of extra money in the pay packet right now rather than significantly higher long term remuneration and 3. Shaft the New Hires - sell an EBA to existing staff by saying that their pay rise will be funded by paying any new hires less (makes for cohesion on the flight deck - NOT). This tactic was also used in the Mainline Short Haul EBA (all new Captains) and the Mainline Long Haul Flight Attendants where they signed off on paying all new hires 1/3 less to work 1/3 more hours (something that I believe will eventually cause the demise of the FAAA).

All the Jetstar pilots that I have had a chance to talk to (<10) all strongly opposed this EBA and one even said that he would be looking for other employment if it got up.

I've previously stated that it is in the interest of all the F/Os at Jetstar to get the salary package as high as possible in order to attract new pilots and thus free F/Os for command training. If there are few pilots joining then Jetstar's expansion will be severely limited and thus time to command will increase.

There was so many reasons why it should have been rejected and thus enable stronger negotiators a chance to gain appropriate remuneration.

[genex]

Going Boeing....

You talked to some (<10) Jetstar pilots and you listened and formed an opinion. Listen then when an independant election, totally secret ballot, says that 38% more pilots wanted the EBA than not (i.e. 240 YES vs 173 NO).

The Jetstar pilots voted to:

Have a pay rise
Get rid of AWAs
Have representation by a recognized professional pilot associationBut for you, and your parent body AIPA, that is not enough. Is it the AIPA position that Jetstar pilots cannot make good decisions? Whose EBA was it after all?

[speeeedy]

Whose EBA was it after all?

Good question genex.

It sure as hell wasn't the AWA pilots EBA when they voted.

The majority of pilots covered by EBA3 DID NOT want it to be replaced.

Will all those AWA pilots who voted, actually switch to the EBA? I would say that the early DEC's on $250k won't be switching....So is their vote invalid? How does all that work? Smelly, very smelly!

In answer to your earlier questions:

1. They were always pretty proud of their pay levels, unlike Jetstar management who seem to enjoy belittling their pilots by publicly screaming from the roof tops that they earn $100 grand less than a Qantas pilot, the SWA management are proud of their good pay. They were only slightly behind the majors when they started, but they did work harder, now, of course, they are the highest paid narrow body pilots in the world.

2. Mostly Yes, but there are some exceptions.

3. 800 to 900, but can get close to 1000 on occasions if little or no leave is used in that year, exactly the same as QF 737.

4. Their pilots are represented by the SWAPA. Interestingly, unlike Jetstar who shuns unions (except when the have no choice), SWA is the most highly unionised airline in the world at 85% and their management is proud of it. American by comparison is 63% unionised. BTW before you start don't compare the SWAPA with the JPC, it will only lead to embarrassment, their histories, structure, and methods are quiet contrary.


I don't know what all that proves, but can you answer my questions now:


1. Is voting to replace an EBA that you are not covered by actually legal?

2. Do the AWA pilots who voted HAVE to switch to the EBA? If not, do we know who voted and who didn't to ensure that those who don't switch did not have a vote for an EBA that has nothing to do with them.

3. If all this is so kosher then why didn't the AWA pilots get a vote last time?

I await your response.

[jakethemuss]

Genex,

This Southwest?

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/03/06/southwest.planes/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

[Chimbu chuckles]

Ignoring for a minute the difficulty of trying to directly compare wages across international boundaries what do SWA captains get paid that makes them 'the highest paid narrow body pilot in the world'? How much annual leave, and is it, typically for the US, a sliding scale where you get 1 week/annum for the first x years and then 2 weeks, etc.

The Ryanair banner adds on this site suggest up to GBP120k for captains and up to GBP70k for FOs and markets themselves as 'the high paying airline'.

GBP120k does not equate to AUD280k or whatever the exchange rate indicates these days. Ryanair pilots are being paid in GBP and spending in GBP. The only part of their wage that is effected by any exchange rate is that % that may be remitted to their country of origin. I am going to suggest that for an Ozzie working at Ryanair, and there are some, GBP120k (and I bet they work their coits off for that) equates to something like AUD150-170k depending on a variety of factors.

J* captains on EBA 4 will now be on something like AUD200-220k.

Lets put that in perspective...J* pilots based in Oz will potentially net not much less than a UK based Ozzie Ryanair pilot grosses in AUD terms.

Lets cast our minds back to the origins of the QF Domestic package...it was a union busting package designed to induce 'individuals' to desert there former workmates and get an airline, TAA/Australian back into the air.

Lets also remind ourselves that the main difference between the QF Dom wage and J*'s is not the base pay but the point at which overtime kicks in. 55 hours in the case of the QF/TAA pilots and 75 hours for J* pilots.

The J* EBA got voted up in the end.

Everyone is united on an, arguably internationally competitive, EBA with union representation...and management are happy about that unity. Pick another airline in the region where that is the case.

No AWAs which, had the EBA been voted down would have become, irrespective of what the Rudd Govt says, the only option for new hires.

Everyone currently employed got a significant payrise with, not only no productivity tradeoffs, but 18 days/annum extra off. In a time of rapidly increasing costs of living and an uncertain economic future. How often have we seen that achieved of late...even by the much vaunted AIPA.

To put that 18 days in perspective that is significantly more than the annual leave of most US employees and comes on top of 6 weeks annual leave.

Seniority enshrined giving junior pilots a great deal of career protection if/when the planned expansion happens in the next few years.

Yes the new hire FOs will be on 55% of a captains wage for 12 months, what is the equivalent % for new hire QF mainline pilots?

Yes new hire, non type rated, pilots must salary sacrifice a type rating...not uncommon internationally...remind me again about QF mainline 'training pay' for the first 18 (or is it 12) months. Just because it is called something else in QF doesn't mean you're not paying for your type rating. Are QF SO's bonded?

Lets not forget that new hire will potentially be changing seats in 3-4 years. The new hire QF pilot might get a window seat in 3-5 years and wait 10-15 years for a command.

There are lots of things worth getting worked up about in this world...this is not one of them.

[genex]

Speedy....

I seriously doubt that SWA ever paid near the "majors" rates in its early years when they had to sell an aircrfat and spares to cover the payroll. nevertheless with some audacious marketing and operating practices that had the "majors" aghast, they made it.

Of course they are not perfect. They did a QF1 at Burbank then again at O'hare and in both cases came within whiskers breadth of a holocaust. But as with QF1 were very fortunate, thank goodness.

As for the AWAs vote....personally I'd be more focussed on the fact that there are now about 100 less contract pilot jobs than before. But if you work for Jetstar and are aggrieved then take them on in the courts. If it matters that much to see pilots stay on AWAs and for all the JQ pilots to take a pay cut then go ahead.

As for me....I read Chimbu's last line and commend it to you. There are things in the world to get worked up about and this isn't one of them.

Your energies would be better devoted to working within AIPA to get their house in order. Getting over the monkey photo tactic will take years.

[I'm Driving]

Wow. You blokes really are sensitive. Some bloke posts a picture of a monkey, and that is going to take years to get over.

We are called Skygod, up-em-selves wankers all the time. And we just move on.

C'est la vie.

[jakethemuss]

Genex,

Southwest originally paid low salaries that were "topped up" in the form of employee share issues. These shares subsequently made the original Southwest Pilots very wealthy.

How many Jetstar shares did you get?

[cloudsurfng]

38% more pilots wanted the EBA than not (i.e. 240 YES vs 173 NO).

Just out of interest.......how many AWA voters were there. Surely this difference must have been made up (mostly) by the AWA voters. Apologies if this has been covered somewhere already....

Seems a bit funny now.....apparently you need to get better scores in the QF psych and skills tests to allow you to work for the airline with less expansion and slower progression.........whereas you could have joined JQ as a CFO, almost instantly received a huge payrise, (which im told puts them on higher pay than a QF SO for the first 18 months) and just for fun...."here's you're FO slot" 3 months later.
I wonder how those who voted NO will go sitting next to the CFO/AWA that voted YES.

[dodgybrothers]

genex and chimbu, while you are at work, could you please get off your keyboards and back under AJ's desk where you belong. He will be missing you.

[Going Boeing]

Genex, you made comment on one of the many points that I made in my post. Can I assume that you agree with the rest of my post?

If the <10 Jetstar pilots (ie 9) that I spoke to were representative of the eligible EBA voters then I would expect that 5 of them would have been for the EBA. I guess that I only met those that voted NO. GB

[genex]

aaaah, the sweet smell of aggrieved AIPA members venting their spleen. Like napalm in the morning....nothing quite like it is there.

GB....Had you been educated in statistics you would have known not to draw ANY inference from what 10 people do or don't say....even assuming they were a representative sample. Whereas several hundred in a secret ballot is likely to mean something.

And Dodgy....never having been near or under Allan Joyce's desk I couldn't tell you whether Chimbu lives there....I certainly don't. Do you have some secret fantasy? Don't share it with us.

As for the SWA salaries and shares....that's the point isn't it? That in the early days there wasn't a lot of cash. I guess if the Jetstar EBA includes some form of bonus plan then a JQ pilot could invest it. I have no idea how the Qantas group or JQ handle those things and don't really care.

I do care though that AIPA is advocating the retention of AWAs. That is tragic and short-sighted, however much you people dislike your lesser brothers in JQ. Do they not deserve a fair go?

Enough. There is a long weekend ahead.....the beach awaits and I will never again have to worry about crewing ringing as I pack the surfboard.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Well you all know what I think about Unions...

That aside the facts are:

If you think there is a pilot shortage and it will get worse in the future:

You are a chump to take a 3 - 5 year agreement unless it is something special.

If you think the pilot shortage has peaked and there will be a big downturn in the demand for pilots:

Lock in what you can now.

Remember that a 3-5 year agreement transfers the risk of inflation and a blow out in pilot wages to you (i.e. away from Jetstar). It's all about risk. If Jetstar can transfer the risk to you they win (when calculating future costs they don't have to factor in a percentage chance of a large increase in pilot wages). A transfer of risk makes their forecast figures look a whole lot better. (i.e. Imagine that in 6 months time inflation hits 6%... do you want to be stuck on an arrangement for years that provides less than that?). That's what companies like to do - lock in something that they consider a risk.

You may not like my opinion on "market forces" but you need to use then to your advantage whilst you can. Short term agreement is the way to go :ok:

Lock them into something short term and they'll have to re-negotiate when the numbers are worse than they are now.

I hate unions - so I'd say don't let the union lock you into something in the long term that may make you look like a chump in 2 years time.

Having said all that, you should NOT attack someone who likes their offer when moving up from a job paying significantly less. They have their family to look after and that is and should be their main concern.

[fearcampaign]

Please gentlemen,

Let us not stoop to low personal attacks on fellow pilots or even management.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion if it is argued in an appropriate manner.Let us not attack our own kind.Fellow pilots are not enemies.

By getting personal you highlight your inability to argue your position correctly.

I wish both Qantas and Jetstar pilots a successful future.With the massive expansion planned there should be growth for both JQ and QF.
I still feel it is a shame that we are not a united force with the options to move around the Qantas group.I am sure that the majority of pilots in both Jetstar and Qantas would not oppose such an idea.There are many good guys and girls in both camps.If we all got together minus the few idiots in each camp it would be a great piss up.

To look on the bright side with the world pilot shortage as acknowledged by the QF chief pilot, Airbus and Boeing we are all in a good position.

If all pilot salaries in OZ are to be "driven" down as professor suggests then we will have many options elsewhere if required.With the average Captain having 15 years experience, he or she will be a valuable commodity elsewhere.As I eluded to earlier let us not jump at shadows.

Safe flying to all.Both Jetstar and Qantas.

We all work for the same outfit do we not?

[Keg]

aaaah, the sweet smell of aggrieved AIPA members venting their spleen. Like napalm in the morning....nothing quite like it is there.

For all his previous BS about unity and so on, this show's genex's true colours.

I do care though that AIPA is advocating the retention of AWAs.

If anyone ever doubted that genex was into outright distortion and manipulation of reality then this post proves it also. :rolleyes:

[VH-JJW]

Errrr..... you guys do realise that the vote is over don't you?????

I can't believe this thread is still alive. It's over, the results are out, lets move on.

Perhaps a new, more constructive thread would be appropriate. May I suggest something along the lines of 'how are we going to achieve the future goal of one union?'

The more people dwell here on who said what, when and to who the longer the divisions will fester. :)

[Capt Basil Brush]

Yep JJW, the vote is over, and apparently they voted in a base pay for an A320 Capt of around 145K, with minimal increases for 5 years.

No wonder V Aus are offering what they are for 777 Capt's!

[toolish]

Cloudsurfing

I wonder how those who voted NO will go sitting next to the CFO/AWA that voted YES.

not a problem at all mate, probably would have done the same if I was in their position, I do however have a problem with management and those spineless $%@#ks who ran off for AWAs.

Capt B B
a little misleading there but that is to be expected on this site

[Dropt McGutz]

A question for Genex. What award conditions would you rather, Jetstar A320 or QF 737? What about Jetstar A330 or QF A330?

[Higs]

At great risk of getting this thread back toward track can someone please give an indication what sort of coin you would expect to see in the group certificate at the end of the financial year for both 320 and 330???

Please............. :sad:

[BeerBaron]

Jetstar T & Cs here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317096

[amos2]

Isn't it great to see this fantastic unity amongst pilots in this day and age!

Having been retired for a couple of years now it warms the cockles of my heart to see that todays young turks are carrying on the great tradition that we left them, which is to look after one another and support each other in improving the terms and conditions of all pilots, united together in a common cause!!..

Err!...yeah, sure!! :=:=:=

[captaintunedog777]

Sure thing AMOS maybe things are a little tougher now than in the 20th century.

[Reeltime]

Yes well amos.. pprune is actually a very narrow part of the interaction that occurs between pilots today. You'd be mistaken to think this site is representative of the majority view, it's just where most of the vitriol and whinging occurs today.

Surely you have better things to do in retirement than get all worked up over what you read on the internet, there are a number of sites that would provide a retiree better entertainment...or maybe you could just take a walk or read a book.

[Going Boeing]

If things are tougher now then there is even more reason to work together and support each other against this obnoxious management.

[genex]

Ummmm.....I would probably vote for affordable and sustainable quality jobs on interesting new equipment with good rates of promotion. But that's only me. If you want to fly something with hubcaps for years then by all means do so.

[amos2]

Err!, well, actually Reeltime, I amuse myself with Sim work on A320s and 737s and marvel at the inadequacies of todays young pilots...perhaps young turks like you even?...

who knows? :=:=:=

[Capt Basil Brush]

Ummmm.....I would probably vote for affordable and sustainable quality jobs on interesting new equipment with good rates of promotion. But that's only me. If you want to fly something with hubcaps for years then by all means do so.

A beautiful piece of management spin by genex! :eek:

If your not management - your the world's biggest sucker!

affordable and sustainable

What about properly remunerated???? It doesn't even rate a mention in your books!

What's wrong with hubcaps? Are you sick of looking up at them, knowing you cant get up there?

[maui]

What is it you are unhappy with baz.

The figures published give a potential of 260k+.

This is more than the Prime Minister and more than 90+% of the population. It is approximately 5x the AWE.

WTF do you think you deserve?

Get real people, and stop dreaming.

Not management and not J*. But the figures look a whole lot better than I am achieving as an expat.

Maui

[Dropt McGutz]

I knew Genex would shirk around the question. See, he didn't answer it. So if Qantas pay rates aren't sustainable, why are they endorsed by mangement in a company making huge profits? Sure, promotion was a little on the slow side but it's picking up now and quick promotion was unheard of only a couple of years ago. But I guess you also have to decide about lifestyle/family too.

[Nuthinondaclock]

He shirks around most questions, D McG. Prefers to snipe from the sidelines or answer with a non-deferential fob off or put down. I find the strength of his convictions to be irrational for someone who claims to be only an interested observer and not actually affected by the proceedings. It casts a shadow of doubt on these claims in my book.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Maui,

I think the PM's salary is a totally moot point but it's actually $336,000 and then there's a whole heap of perks that go along with it that add up to a whole lot more. (Not to mention it sets you up for an extremely lucrative post-political career.)

Not quite sure how you came up with $260,000+ either. Level 3 Check captain flying 1000 hours a year with each additional hour flown on rostered days off and every performance bonus paid in full? (Is super INCLUSIVE or additional, anyone?) I don’t think that any line driver is going to come close to that, particularly with the frequency of long haul flights to leisure destinations. When a lot of places are 2-4 flights a week it’s just not possible to get your annual total that high. When I ran the Barons figures on reasonable numbers I came up with closer to $210,000 which seems to be what most of the Jet* guys are saying as well. For the record I’m only arguing your figures, not whether I think it’s a reasonable salary.


Nuf.

[maui]

Nuthinonyourdick

1000 hours level 3 plus retention.

Next question?

Maui

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Ooh, that's cutting. :eek: And Nuf was being diplomatic too.

[speeeedy]

Maui,

You have just proven that you can't do (very basic) maths, makes me worry given you are supposed to be a pilot.

[maui]

Speedy

Don't worryabout it. All you really need is the three times table to drive proper.

Correct me if you will

basic (787 hours) 165k
o/t rate 210/hr
level 3 18% (presumably on every hour)
retention 6% on total

Did I leave something out?

Maui

[Nuthinondaclock]

Very mature response, Maui. Still can't get the numbers to $260,000+ though.

Quoting that as an average Jet* pilots' figure is like taking the figure of a Senior QF 744 Check and Training Captain the day before he retires, taking no leave, doing only SYD-LAX returns (Thereby getting massive overtime payments for the length of flight), then working extra hours and presenting that as what "Qantas pilots earn". This is something that airline management do in the media (As did Hawke the year before 1990) when they want to make out pilots as "fat cats'.

For what it's worth the figure I ran was based on a 330 line Captain doing 85 hours a month (10 overtime). The Jet* 330 guys can correct me if their annual average differs much from this. From what I believe the total figure on the 320 wouldn't be too much less as the ability to do higher hours is certainly there in S/H operations. About 10 additional hours a month (compared to the 330) would bring the figure very close though the 320 overnight (Very few?) allowances would be less.

Nuf.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Typically the 18% would be on base only. If you conduct simulator exercises as a checkie you don't get to do overtime and also miss out on the allowances. That's one of the reasons they put a loading on checkies as otherwise they would actually lose salary. (Happy to be corrected by a Jet* checkie if this isn't the case.)

Nuf.

[maui]

Nuthininyadick

Tell me if you will, where did I say that that was representative of an average line pilot's salary. I believe, (although I must admit to a couple of reds at the time in question), that I said it was a potential figure.

Maui

[VH-JJW]

Average A330 Line Captain doing 10hrs per month 10.5 months a year with 6% retention and Perf bonus is $210k.

You could perhaps get another $10k with paxing and ground duties.

Maybe even squeeze another $5k for a few work days off.

Super (9% on total earnings) and allowances are additional to this.

A320 guys are able to consistently average 90+ stick hours per month, hence a similar earnings capacity.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Maui, you did indeed say ‘potential figure’ (though even on your numbers it’s still $20k less) but when you then put it in the context of the rest of your post you were comparing it to average working salaries. You can’t compare the average salary of one group with the extreme high end of another’s as a valid comparison. I don’t like comparing professions but you could compare my (or your) salary to that of a first year GP in a bulk billing clinic or a high end Plastic Surgeon depending on which way you wanted to argue your point. I'll let you off on the red wine defence though. Works for me.

Lies, lies and statistics.

Nuf.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Thanks JJW. Certainly salarywise for a LCC it sounds quite reasonable.

Regards,
Nuf.

[maui]

Nutininyadick and Speedy.

Ho Hum. Gather round kiddies its time for our maths lesson.

base 165.5 k
overtime 123 hour pa @ 210.32 /hr = 44.7k
total 210.3k
level3 = 18% x 210.3= 37.8k
total 247.2 k
retention bonus 6% x 247.2 =14.8k
total 262k

then you have super (9%) and productivity bonus (0-x).

Now Nuf I note your comments about a checker being a bit restricted by sim work.
Firstly I am astounded that in this day and age that this still occurs. Most of the real world has gone to the specialist sim trainer/checker.

Secondly, whilst in the protected environment of the sheltered workshop that is Q mainline, it may be diffcult to achieve maximum hours, the rest of the world seems to be able to do it with ease. For instance my figures for the last 12 months 831:39 actual 226:31 deadhead total 1058 not including sim and ground schools. You need to get out more, there is a whole different world out there, and currently J* is looking pretty good in comparison.

Maui

[HF3000]

226 hours deadhead! That's a lot of red wine...

[maui]

Would be if we were allowed to imbibe.

M

[EPIRB]

Maui, I'm in the sheltered workshop of Mainline and I got up to 894 hours for the 365 days. Fortunately I had leave coming up which helped me out. And I didn't pick up any additional flying on top of what I was rostered in order to achieve this either. It seems that most on the 744 are sitting between 800 and 900 hours for the 365 days.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Maui,

For starters the Level 3 Check Captain’s 18% loading is on base salary and the Retention Bonus is actually paid 3 out of the 5 years of the EBA, but averaged out as an annual payment. It’s still a moot point you’re arguing though. In the post in question you were relating this salary to the Australian average salary. I’d be really surprised if there is a single level 3 Check Captain on the 330 in Jet* that flew 1000 hours (or close to it) in a 365 day period. In fact how many level 3 Check Captains do they have on the 330? I’m guessing it would be a handful of guys and they would actually spend quite a lot of time in their checking role in the sim. I dare say they wouldn’t be paying them an 18% bonus if they had specialised sim trainer/checkers doing all their sims. Certainly instrument rating renewals are not carried out by ‘sim instructors’ under CASA’s rules. It’s hardly a fair representation of a Jet* pilot’s salary in the context you used it. Heck, don’t listen to me, read JJW’s post.

The hours in QF mainline are irrelevant to what we’re talking about here. As I said before,
“I don’t think that any line driver (In Jet*) is going to come close to that (1,000 hours p.a.), particularly with the frequency of long haul flights to leisure destinations. When a lot of destinations are frequented 2-4 times a week it’s just not possible to get your annual total that high.”
The figures JJW has quoted show this to be correct. If there are others on the 330 achieving otherwise I’m happy to be corrected but JJW’s figures are in line with what I’ve been told by half a dozen other blokes I know on the 330. The hours you fly in your operation are likewise irrelevant. As an Aussie in Hawaii I’m guessing you’re on one of the JAL contracts. That sort of operation is very different from the Jet* flying. Is your 226 hours deadheading really deadheading or part of commuting to your base? (If you are on this contract the 831 flight hours a year only averages out at 72 flight hours a month with the 2 weeks a year leave. Again, this shows how an unfair comparison can be made.)

As I’ve said before I’m not saying any of this to argue against Jet* and the salary but I dislike it when the extreme end of a salary is bandied around like we’re all earning it. It’s dishonest and ultimately self defeating.

Nuf.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I came up with closer to $210,000

Can't believe you aren't filing for welfare on that paltry wage ;)

[maui]

Nuttinimadick

Settle Petal.

I can only go on what has been published here, and as there is no specification as to how the C&T loadings are applied, I must bow to your superior knowledge and insight. Scratch 8.3k from the calculation. Shucks we're down to our last 253k, however can one be expected to cope.

Retetion bonus according to what is written is PAID on the 1st 3rd and 5th anniversaries, however as the poster has quoted a full 6% in the annualised (like 1 year) figure, I foolishly considered that it meant 6% per annum. If you have further insight into how this is applied I am sure all who read here would appreciate the benefit of your greater resource.

Instrument rating renwals can indeed be carried out by sim instructor/checkers under CASA rules. I refer you to the latest Crash Comic page 50.
(Anyway can you explain what is all this level 1,2,3 crap, is it a Q thing or is it something new in the CAR 217 stucture. I and, I am sure, a lot of us OS have no knowledge of it. It was much simpler when we had just checkers and just trainers.)


It’s hardly a fair representation of a Jet* pilot’s salary in the context you used it.

When did I ever claim to be quoting a figure representing an average pilot's salary.

As for the 1000 hours. You can bet your bottom dollar that J* will be doing everything they can to extract every last minute of that 1000 hours. The purpose of quoting my own figures was purely to demonstrate that it is possible. One of the principal reasons for the J* model is to eliminate restrictive practices that prevent the complete extraction of resources.

The dishonesty you accuse me of, dear fellow, is in your irrational incomprehension.

Now it's late. Go have a red, kick the cat, and go to bed.

Maui

[Tidbinbilla]

Now it's late. Go have a red, kick the cat, and go to bed.

Timely advice as this thread has run its course.