Merged: Jetstar EBA 4

[Flava Saver]

Voted down. 56% NO 44% YES

[AIR WARREN]

The Tribe has Spoken Mr Joyce + Co.:{

[G Cantstandya]

Thank fark for that!!!!!!!

Let's hope now we can get AIPA/AFAP to secure us a better deal.

[Rostov]

Well, the troops have finally spoken. Let's see how AIPA and the AFAP will step up to the plate. I am a little excited but not holding my breath. This I feel is the olive branch AIPA are looking for. Well?? Lets have a look at your cards AIPA. Jetstar will be pi$$ed big time and if the pilot body are back doored by AIPA now, I think you could probably close the gate on Qantas group pilots having a united front for a very very long time..

[SilverSleuth]

Do you really think Jetstar will be devastated at this result???? I don't think so. While obviously disappointed, a nearly split decision tells the old jetstar bean counters that what they offered is nearly on the mark. Lets be honest they were only 6% off if the result here is true. I actually find it very sad to see so many people voted yes. Here we are in the biggest pilot pro work scenario for years and for some reason 44% still thought what was offered was good enough. This result has not helped the pilot group very much in terms of new negotiations. At virgin the first EBA was voted down 87% and the company came back with very little, few grey promises (i.e long haul) and a lot of scare (if this it voted down again).... That was enough to turn almost 40% of the pilot group. I think the Jetstar beans will be licking their chops thinking jesus we really don't have to offer much more do we. Shame there was not a more united result. Good luck with round 2.

[No Idea Either]

I wouldn't hold my breath people. Only 7% needs to be turned for it to get up. We went from 87% NO to scraping through by 3% in the blink of an eye, the veiled threat of no command upgrades being the turning point. With your expansion the company will no doubt try a similar tactic. Be strong people, it will be your last opportunity, we blew ours!!!!!!

[squawk6969]

From what I had explained to me it seemed to be quite a fair offer, more $$$ for no more work, plus a bit more $$ for some productive things. PLus some more days off.

Maybe I missed something:confused:

SQ

[Flava Saver]

Silver Sleuth

As I posted on a previous thread, I voted NO. Reading you post saying that you find it sad seeing so many voted yes, i'll put some perspective on it.

I would of liked a resounding NO figure, but a NO is a NO. The dudes sitting in the back seat of an A330 earning sweet f/a would of seen a massive increase compared to what they are earning 'if' this EBA had of been voted up. And i guess quite a few possibly voted for that, and i don't blame anyone for doing that. Some A330 skippers would of seen a fairly decent increase as well, hence a yes vote as well.

Am I glad this got voted down? You betcha. But as Rostov has said, here is your mandate AIPA/AFAP. Here is the extra time you have now wanted. IW and LC NEED to get their heads together, and educate the pilot body, and get the runs on the board that they so desperately want with the JQ group. I swear, if the next round of EBA talks come around (be it this year or whenever) and we haven't progressed significantly, you will lose any confidence in the union movement from a majority of crew.

"You have Control" :ok:

PS.. Squawk6969, yep the deal wasn't too bad. Certainly heading in the right direction, BUT, they sold out the F/O's to an extent using command opportunity as the carrot, and hey presto, they have just taken on a heap of DEC and they are openly & actively recruiting for more DEC's, so guys WONT be upgraded as quick as what they think. The big allocation of upgrades that were announced 5 months ago, the majority haven't even started the training, and would of not been eligible for the bonus payment later on, as they would not be checked to line as skippers by April 1, which left a bad taste to those it affected, along with having the 75% Command Training pay negotiated away as well as a double whammy.

[Launch_code_Harry]

Flava, can you post the yes/no vs total eligible voters?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Well a democratic result but I think all you No voters experiencing a warm and fuzzy are about to be dealt a rude shock.

GD/AJ will also be experiencing a warm and fuzzy because with your present EBA not due to expire until Sept this year they can now delay it as long as they like after that...having opened negotiations early and been rejected by the pilot body. You guys and girls who voted No are taking a big punt on the state of the economy/pilot shortage in 18 months...I wish you luck.

They are now free to offer individual contracts to whomever they need to crew whatever expansion actually happens before the 'US Cold' gives Asia/Australia the flu and gives J* a reprieve from the 'pilot shortage'. Much better for the bottom line to give 100 pilots a payrise than 600-800.

You don't think there won't/can't be individual contracts do you? They existed before Work Choices and they will exist after work choices. The J* T&Cs are so far above any means testing/protections a Labor, or any Govt, might impose that they just won't care in the least about J* offering individual contracts to prospective employees on T&Cs equal to or greater than the EBA just voted down.

The VB pilots faced an entirely different economic/industry outlook 12+ months ago.

I feel you have let emotions stop you taking a wider view and voting strategically as a result of that wider view. What % of J* pilots are too young to remember a recession?

About 56% apparently.

Chances of AIPA/AFAP getting together for a group hug?

Zero.

Chances of either group achieving a better result if the world is in recession in 18 months time?

Zero.

Chances of the world being in recession in 18 months time?

I would have said better than 50%.

I think this vote will be seen eventually, when AIPA/AFAP fail to deliver on their rhetoric, as the death of any chance for pilot unity in Australia.

[fender]

I'm with ya chumba.
been trying to pass on the message to the young ones but I guess you gotta experience the highs and lows of life yourself.
Good luck all, I think you might need it.

[permFO]

The Company stated that if this gets voted down then there would be no more negotiations until the current EBA expires. If they turn around and offer a "better" deal then it is probable that they are concerned about the new Governments proposed changes to the IR legislation. I for one want to see what the legislation proposes and yes the AIPA and AFAP information did influence my decision to vote no.

[Chimbu chuckles]

If they turn around and offer a "better" deal then it is probable that they are concerned about the new Governments proposed changes to the IR legislation.

They won't.

Any legislative efforts designed to roll back Work Choices will not effect in any way pilots, or any employee for that matter, on the T&Cs the current J* EBA provides. They will be aimed at that segment of society that were on minimum wages that truly were victims of work choices....Labor's heartland.

[Jabawocky]

Just remember folks....you might think your job sucks and it does not pay that well.............."But it beats boning Chickens for a living"

I do think that those of you who voted it down may have not only shot yourselves in the foot but taken your co-workers and shot their feet also.

What does the company do and those who voted for it do now. Can a Yes voter go to AJ and say....I voted for it, can I sign up, and if down the track we can be more productive and valuable can we look forward to an upward progression?

Many folk do believe that a major part of the Ansett collapse was unsustainable conditions for not much productivity.

Maybe I am way off the mark........

J

[genex]

AIPA persuaded a few swinging voters to effectively ensure a pay cut for all Jetstar pilots for at least a year. This hands extra profit to Jetstar, ensures that some form of inducement outside the EBA will be offered to Direct Entry pilots and/or individual contracts/AWAs will be offered at the rate all pilots would have got if AIPA hadn't interfered. So in what way is the pilot body at Jetstar better off? And one more SARS outbreak or 9/11 or fuel price spike and the next EBA offer will not be as good. However I never did see the document so am just guessing.

I just wouldn't want to be in a position where a bunch of people I don't work with and never will determined my working conditions. And lusted after all the command slots.

Oh well, good luck boys. Hope you really were prepared for what you voted for.

[Flava Saver]

Jetstar pilots are ridiculed by many on here for voting yes for accepting previous EBA's, the majority have spoken, and now the outsiders are quick to jump on us again for voting the other way. Jeese this industry makes you laugh. :ugh:

[Capt Wally]

Okay guys good luck with the next battle. Even tho it wasn't an outstanding success like some have said in here, a No is a NO.There is obviously quite a large divided camp amongst the troops but you have to start somewhere.
Little by little they (the head turkey's) have been wittling away T&C's, & so little by little you guys/gals are clawing yr way back, & it hurts them (the turkey's again) to think that it's not all that safe up there afterall!

How many times do we hear, oh yr a pilot, I see, then yr rich I suppose !!!

If only the general flying public really knew !


CW:)

[Capt Kremin]

Genex, that post was a masterly piece of disinformation... you even worked in the bit about the command slots; even when post after post has been made stating that under a GOAL, no QF pilot will get a command slot before a current Jetstar pilot.

Still, if you say it often enough maybe someone will swallow it.

Jetstar guys, well done. :D

[Night Hawk]

How true Capt Wally. :)

BTW some CFO's voted no becuase the big picture for FO's was not great. Hopefuly short term pain for long term gain....etc

Shafting the new guys is not the way to go either.

DEC are coming in to the fold and they are looking for more. Hence the quick left seats aren't as many as once thought.

Flava Saver.... your spot on also.....:ugh:

Hopefully this will push the JPC into action either with or without union help.

NH

[drshmoo]

Top stuff Jetstar pilots for voting it down. Don't listen to the nay sayers. Looking forward to AIPA/AFAP stepping up to assist and get good deals across the board. Good luck with the fight
Shmoo

[ACMS]

yes, well done boys and girls.:ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"Just remember folks....you might think your job sucks and it does not pay that well.............."But it beats boning Chickens for a living"

And just what qualifications does it take to bone a chook Jabba?

Well done guys. In the current environment all professional pilots are worth more. For too many years people have undersold themselves. That is why there is a shortage today. Airline managements know this, and they are hoping to Chr!st that not too many wake up to it. Errr...., too late I think!

And the "threat" of DEC's. They'll have to pay a lot more than what they are offering for that one to work.

Catch 22.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Capt Kremin perhaps genex was referring to DECs from outside the QF group?

AJ made it very clear recently that if the EBA got up he would not hire DECs/DEFOs on individual contracts with T&Cs equal to or better than the failed EBA. He made it equally clear that a NO vote would release him from that promise and he would do whatever it took to make J* a success. That being the case, and taking him at his word, I would respectfully suggest that any pilot walking in and offering to sign an individual contract on the failed EBA T&Cs will receive a positive hearing...as would any prospective employee being currently interviewed...and the result will be the further fragmentation of the pilot group. A Yes vote would have meant all pilots currently on AWAs being offered an EBA and thus the unification of the current J* pilot group.

Flava Sava given the nature of this BB just who and how many ridiculed J* pilots for voting the previous EBA up?

The answer is a small % of young, angry QF pilots who saw their careers being effected without thinking about the protection of mainline T&Cs which J*'s existence provides via it's exclusion of VB/Tiger/Lion/whomever from that % of the domestic market that J* holds. And an even smaller % of vocal, angry GA pilots who perceive that their career path is adversely effected by J*'s mere existence on lower T&Cs than mainline without even considering the extra opportunities that J*'s existence provides and as a competitive entity against VB etc which has tended to raise domestic T&Cs in the last years, QF Domestic T*Cs (which are an '89 aberration) not withstanding.

The J*PG has taken T&Cs from 90K as a 717 captain in the Impulse days to, if this EBA had got up, 210-220K for an A320 Captain as well as numerous work rules that protect pilots from less than enlightened management...and all without AFAPs help (despite their pleading the contrary on another thread).

If the No voters think AIPA/AFAP will be called in tomorrow and negotiations reinstated with a newly cowed QF/J* management you're sadly mistaken...and naive in the extreme.

I would not be at all surprised to see AIPA go quiet now....how long has the QF domestic EBA wrangling been going on since their EBA ran out...2 years?

What about the efforts at Eastern (or is it Sunnies)...18 months since their EBA expired?

You expect more effort for an entity that is perceived to directly attack mainline T&Cs?

Your dreaming.

The no voters seem to think this will light a fire under AIPA/AFAP but when they fail to meet the expectations, and I think it will be 'when' not 'if', of the No voters you watch the anguished cries on this website...not to mention the anger of the Yes voters who have been denied.

The fallout from this vote, in my view, will be far reaching in ways many No voters least expected.

This expectation of all pilots under one union is naive too...the respective office holders at AIPA and AFAP are not going to release the reins that easily and risk their respective companies T*Cs to those who may have little or no vested interest.

QF will never allow a true group opportunity list...and short of strike action by all QF group pilots there is no way to force them to do so....they will just say no.

Chances of a general strike of QF group pilots?

Zero.

If they were serious about pilot unity they would have been offering the J*PG encouragement and 'no strings attached' help from day one, 6 mths ago, instead of riding in at the 11th hour and advocating a No vote to what was a reasonable package in economically uncertain times. They would have been supporting the J*PG as fellow professionals trying to negotiate the best deal possible for their members while acknowledging the unique circumstances of J* rather than behaving as they have been.

[fistfokker]

Well, democracy has had its say and only time will tell. I think with about 90% actually casting a vote that it is a very good vote rate.

The J* CEO has stated that the Company accepts the verdict and will commence discussions for a new agreement "in good faith" when the current agreement expires. The current agreement requires discussions to commence 3 months prior to expiry so I would guess about July would be the earliest to test the water.

I do think that we missed a big opportunity to get rid of AWAs or Individual Agreements without having to rely on the Labour Government (I can't help remembering who presided over the offerring of Individual Agreements to pilots in the first place) however here's waiting to see what they deliver.

I hope the AIPA and the AFAP can work together for the good of all pilots in Australia before too long.

[eye_in_the_sky]

I voted yes.

I wanted some protection against direct entry guys coming in on better conditions, from a possible economic downturn and to better my pay as a 2nd class citizen...oh, sorry, I mean Cruise FO.

I don't trust the unions. The AFAP only published letters, etc because AIPA got into a position to represent us.
Both groups never made a DEMAND to be included in the negotiation process.

If they had, and had been rejected, this would have been conveyed to members and action taken.

Instead, we see a grab for ca$h from both, each trying to appear more eager than the next to represent us.

How many members would AFAP have without their Loss of Licence insurance? Not many I suggest... this seems to be the main driver of it's members. I am aware AIPA doesn't have a similar scheme.

Anyway.

[Jabawocky]

Krusty,

Its got nothing to do with skills and training......boning chickens or whatever. Its commercial reality.

Let me ask you a couple of questions and answer honestly to yourself.

Brain Surgeon V YOU as a pilot.
Which is far more important to society?
Which gets paid more?
Why?

My answers.....
the pilot is far more critical to the bulk of society than a Brain Surgeon
The brain surgeon
Leverage at the point of sale!!

Personally I think most pilots (not all, some are on such a good deal already) deserve a little more, but its commercial reality that matters or there are lots of unemployed pilots and just a handful of slightly higher paid ones.

Cheers
J:ok:

[Poto]

AJ made it very clear recently that if the EBA got up he would not hire DECs/DEFOs on individual contracts with T&Cs equal to or better than the failed EBA. He made it equally clear that a NO vote would release him from that promise and he would do whatever it took to make J* a success.

Chimbu was that protection written into the EBA or just a "promise". Similar to JB/GD telling QF crew that unless LH EBA7 was voted up, No scope to J* LH operations would be offered to qualified QF crew. Great decision to "trust" him!:ugh:

If its not in writing and can be upheld in court it is not worth a piece of Sh!t buddy:=

The members voted down an inadequate EBA- AJ will negotiate and a new deal will be cut.:ok: Similar to the QF SH EBA;)

QF will never allow a true group opportunity list...and short of strike action by all QF group pilots there is no way to force them to do so....they will just say no.

What is a TRUE opportunity list:confused:

[Mr. Hat]

what planet have the 44% been living on?

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

And now the internal coup begins. Children.

DM

[ratpoison]

I very much doubt they will get the DEC's that they believe. Word is certainly getting around of what a sh*t outfit they are. New EBA offered one more day a month off. WOW! At the moment the A330 guys are getting nine days off a month and spending the rest of the time overseas. For me to send my family back to Oz and spend nine days a month with them...... Fark that.

[Rostov]

DM has hit the nail on the head.
Most don't realise what is happening, BUT if the internal coup gets inertia WE ARE ALL F*CKED.
AIPA or the AFAP must act prior to the 12th of Feb. I can not understand the short sight and absolute disregard for fellow man that is transpiring in the current coup. Thank f&*k we are not at war and these boys are 'SUPPOSED' to be watching your back. Never before has solidarity been so important. All you Qf boys with an axe to grind drop your axe and think with your head. Go to AIPA and push hard. With the current coup pushing the 44% YES vote to sign up as AWA contracts on the voted down EBA4 condition's and leaving the 56% NO vote a minority compared to the current AWA number of pilots..this has the smell of another '89 and leaving the NO voters a masssive minority in a Jetstar of AWA pilots. NEVER BEFORE HAS AIPA OR AFAP GUIDANCE BEEN MORE IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For now is the eve of the winter of our discontent (forgive the theatrics) If the ball is dropped now a long winter it will be. Already the 44% of no voters is gathering speed and very shortly will be offered AWA's on the voted down provisions. Time is short and there is so much to lose. FOR EVERYONE. For Gods sake put all the sh!t behind. All you QF guys that sympathise, call Capt Woods, All you Qf guys that dislike Jetstar pilots for what has been done in the past. FORGET IT for it will be a pleasant past memory compared to what to what the rouge percentage are trying to achieve by coverting from EBA pilots to AWA pilots on conditions that where voted down and it is a possible 44% of what was the collective bargaining strength of the Jetstar pilots.

[QFinsider]

Management in airlines hold a pair of twos..they always have.They have bluffed Robin Holt, to a certain degree IW and certainly the JPC (who have their nice shiny comands-read pieces of silver) As a result, the collective approach has been to fold at the first sign of resistence. Management, be it EX, J* or QF cannot do our job...There is no revenue withour aviation being committed.

It is not about a wages break out...
It struck me recently as we landed in EGLL with bugger all gas (something I protested at flight planning) why bother to shave the margins when GD and these other idiots commit fraud and cost us more than that in a single swoop...

Wages are so minor guys..Less than 3% or operating cost. Believe AJ and the same sky will fall in, te very same one GD had falling in for the last five years....

It is their lack off accountability, the unviability of the model they espouse that costs money, however for the shareholder it is unfortunate that the parties that make the huge errors also "create" the financial information presented to the market.......

Sit on your hands AJ is holding a pair of twos.....

(and by the way if AIPA dont do the same with our LH EBA it will confirm to me our union executive are stooges!

[VH-JJW]

I voted YES.

I still believe that the deal on offer was sufficient.

HOWEVER.

I believe in democracy and the majority has spoken. The actions of a few to offer themselves up to work to the EBA4 conditions under an AWA are, in my opinion deplorable. They certainly do not represent the majority of yes voters.

I would urge both these individuals and the company to take a step back and a deep breath. The world has not ended. You have not lost money as you never had it in the first place.

It is time to pull together AIPA, AFAP under the one umbrella, with a new JPA representing all interests.

The only way to secure a better deal from here is if we all stick together.

[genex]

QF Insider......you are spending too much time here and not enough thinking about airmanship. You bothered to protest about your fuel load at briefing but then went ahead and landed at EGLL with "bugger all" gas. That is the standard AIP strategy about nearly everything....scream then fold.

If AIPA took vigorous action.....actual action.....instead of relying on the JPC to d their work for them, then maybe you'd have some credibility

[CaptCloudbuster]

Fisty said hope the AIPA and the AFAP can work together for the good of all pilots in Australia before too long.

Good news - heard from a reliable source a well respected Senior AIPA COM rep is heading up a meeting with Jet* people early next week:ok:

and

The J* CEO has stated that the Company accepts the verdict and will commence discussions for a new agreement "in good faith" when the current agreement expires

So Chimbu, I guess you'll have to take him on his word on that one too;)

any pilot walking in and offering to sign an individual contract on the failed EBA T&Cs will receive a positive hearing


Any union is only as strong as its resolve. If any :mad: chooses to go down this route (and I'm sure some will/have) then the squandering of the current positive situation rests squarely on their heads:=

[strobe12]

Rostov and all the others who are worried about AIPA/AFAP not doing anything about this, i put this question to you.

Have you folks picked the phone up and called AIPA/AFAP with your concerns? If so, thats a step in the right direction.

For those who have not, why not? You can complain all you want on theses forums and what not, but until you pick the phone up pr write and email NOTHING will change!

Bleat "united we stand" etc etc, but nothing will happen unless you pick up the phone!!!

Take some action yourselves instead of waiting for others to take the first step.

Once again to those who have:ok::ok:

[WhoFlungDung]

Just pick up the phone and give AIPA a call. Not hard. Just do it!

02 8307 7777

Go on. DO IT!

[Rostov]

Already did that boys. I have done my part thus far.

[aulglarse]

For the posters here who claim AJ stated 'this and that' is exactly that=nothing! he can say all he wants until he changes his mind.:eek:

Do I have to remind people about the last EBA getting up? Oh, where is that north american contract company now??? How embarrasing to those so gallable!:=

This is about sacrifice for the long term, not a 3% bonus!

Solidarity people-moving forward and upwards:D:ok:

[fistfokker]

Good news - heard from a reliable source a well respected Senior AIPA COM rep is heading up a meeting with Jet* people early next week

Cloudy, J* management have agreed to meet the AIPA but that is all that will happen. Don't expect that negotiations will be open again. The AIPA will get exactly the same treatment as the AFAP already did. "Thanks for your interest but the deal is off the table until we are requred to commence discussions for a new agreement." Given the CEO's statement to that effect I will take him at his word.

Discussions between J* and the JPA can be expected to commence around mid year. The AIPA or the AFAP will only be present at those discussions if the pilots employed by J* want them to be. I personally hope that will be the case.

In the meantime all new employees are being offerred AWAs until we see what may change in the IR situation.

[Jet Jockey]

Could be in the vicinity of 20% sacrifice to base salary just for this year alone. Pretty big gamble this time round considering the majority of the J* troops have excepted little more then 3% in last 2 EBA,s and now the company is under no obligation to talk till 2nd half of the year.

I have voted previous EBA,s down when the majority thought they were acceptable. This EBA has offered more than anything previously and am shocked that it didn't get up. The JPA have negoiated hard in good faith. As JPA members have stated the market ultimately set the standard. J* has had virtually no pilot's leave, Tiger has entered the market with worst pay and conditions and crewing planes no problem. No shortage of applicants for J* positions.
Still a lot of Ex Ansett types overseas just starting to get their various grat payments and contracts coming up for renewal with mortgage free homes back in oz wanting to come back.
Further delays of 787 and greater than 50% chance of market slow down worldwide in next 18months.

One big bluff and from what I can see company holding all the Aces.

[DutchRoll]

One big bluff and from what I can see company holding all the Aces.
Well, you're definitely not living on the same planet I'm living on, having been told of numerous occasions involving J* flight cancellations due lack of crew. Also, maybe you'd like to enlighten us on the minimum experience J* have been accepting for both application, and command? Likewise with Tiger?

There are not many airlines holding aces at the moment. I hope you don't play poker. Getting you to fold appears pretty easy.

[spabath]

$169,000 for 816 hours per year, then $207 per hour there after.
12 days off in 28 day roster
$1000 min to work a day off
$2500 for loss of licence

This is the minimum pay offer we should accept as per Virgin & Tiger which earns more than us.

[TurbTool]

Well, you're definitely not living on the same planet I'm living on, having been told of numerous occasions involving J* flight cancellations due lack of crew.

Maybe you live on a different planet to the rest of us. My sources tell me that no flights at J* have been cancelled as a result of lack of tech crew. Certainly some flights have been cancelled due wx disruptions and an inability to launch with standby crew due to curfew requirements. "Flights being cancelled" is merely propoganda being spread by the "pilot shortage" brigade, more wishfull thinking than fact.

It will be interesting to see which party plays better poker later this year.

[I'm Driving]

Hey Tool.

Why are QF 737 operating services on Wet lease to Jetstar?

[HIGH n MIGHTY]

Good job on the No vote fellas...

Oh, as for the previous remarks, I have flown scheduled Jetstar services in the 737 for 2 days since Xmas, carrying Jetstar passengers to Jetstar destinations using Jetstar callsigns. Nothing unusual about the operation as they were to "leisure" destinations that dont clash with Qf (Hobart, Cooly, Cairns) :ugh: When queried why was told "lack of staff and equipment"

However, the disturbing thing is that they were on my roster the whole month, rather than a late change of plan.

Stick with it, good to see the Eba knockback..:D

[drshmoo]

There is a lot of negative crap on here. The industry thanks all of you who voted no. Yep you've stirred up the hornets nest and the company will throw the shadow of uncertainty. This is the start of J* pilots clawing back lost ground. Well done.

No pilot shortage - hahahhahahhaha. Look at the amount of airframes purchased world wide. US in trouble financially maybe, the flow on won't be catastrophic to the world economies and the airframes have been purchased all over the world. The world needs sh!t loads of pilots.

Good on J* pilots - keep the good fight - you are worth no less than what virgin got and that needs to look at pay vs time at work etc.
J* pilots:ok:

[fistfokker]

Hey Tool.

Why are QF 737 operating services on Wet lease to Jetstar?

I can answer that one. It is because the 3 A320 aircraft that were scheduled to be in service for the Christmas rush were delayed for reasons beyond J*'s control. So as High n Mighty said "lack of equipment" not tech crew is the answer.

I have got to say I never cease to be amazed when pilots (who know absolutely everything about running an airline) constantly quote "crew shortage" yet managemant (who know nothing about running an airline) disagree but said airline continues to operate. Safely, profitably, continually.

Why is that?

[Mr. Hat]

Yoiu should be aiming above the T and C's at VB, people. There is never going to be a better time than now.

[bigles]

Previous Expierence Tells Me That When Your Staff Moral Drops So Do Your Profits,costs Escalate, Delays Increase Aircraft Suddenly Require More Maintenance.don't Waste Any Human Capital You May Have, Show Some Leadership, After All You Are Going To Be Attacked From The Bottom By Tiger And Lion Air,possibly Asia X,you Are Going To Need All The Cooperation You Can Get To Keep Jetstar Viable.a Look At The Previous Sucessful Leaders In This Industry Might Give You A Clue

Me,long Since Retired

[Mat Finish]

'$2500 loss of licence'

Is that not $250,000?

$2500 is surely a typo? What can you do with that? even $250,000 is not much for loss of a career.

Mat Finish
never a shiny moment..:suspect:

[genex]

It is so good to see just exactly how many people from such disparite backgrounds, not to mention all of AIPA, are putting their hopes for a good future (not to mention world peace, end to poverty and AIDS etc) on the Jetstar pilot body. What a vote of confidence in those pilots that the entire future of Australia piloting rests on their intestinal fortitude. I am moved to quote Churchill: "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few".

Since the JQ pilots will now be significantly underpaid for probably a year (much more if there's any downturn in the next year), would some of those cheering from the sidelines kick in with a levy to top up the salaries of the "Few"?

$500 a month from each Qantas pilot toward the JQ salary bill would really be a show of solidarity. Any takers? It doesn't affect me but I would,as an act of solidarity, kick in my share if AIPA starts a fund and publishes the bank a/c details.

[missing link]

Hey Genex, ever looked at the pay of the Dash drivers? If you're going to chip in - I think they could use some as well............ F/O's mid 40's
Capt's low 80"s F/A's low 30's........Work just as hard if not harder than mainline - Don't make the same mistake you made with the Jetstar guys:=

[adam210]

$2500 is about right as an annual premium for $500,000 coverage of loss of licence insurance. if under 30 yo, your premium is around $1200

[toolish]

Genex,
I voted NO and I knew and was willing to take the 15k hit this year.
I do not expect anyone to subsidise my wage, IT IS MY CHOICE.
I have done my part but not expect me to take anymore financial hits unless the rest of the industry will.

[Capt Basil Brush]

The question that needs to be answered by the people so in favour of voting YES, is;

"why did J* want to lock in this deal for 5 years, nearly 1 year before its due?"

I am interested in hearing some answers to this one.

(Chimbu, how did you come up with the 210 - 220K figure for an A320 Capt? I heard it was a base of 145K plus extras. 65 - 75K of "extras" per year??)

[blow.n.gasket]

I thought the JetStar F/O's would be mighty relieved with the result, No South African Instant captains coming to take your upgrade away.
They now have to be employed under the present Terms, wonder how many will take the move now?

[VH-JJW]

Wrong - Now the South African Dec's will be recruited onto AWA's, most likely on the proposed EBA 4 conditions.

Jetstar management made it abundantly clear, they proposed the new EBA as a result of pilot discontent over AWA's. Now that they have been told by the pilots to to F&*k off, there is no stopping the AWA's, unless of course the government changes its mind.

[VH-JJW]

Obviously the AFAP severely misread the Jetstar vote outcome.

After the recent result I understand that they intend on writing to Jetstar management offerring to renegotiate EBA 4.

Only problem is;

There is NO bargaining period
The present EBA runs until August
Management stated they will not renegotiate until later this year
Management intend on keeping their word.
AIPA - what role should they have?

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

There is no way I can see management returning to the table until they have to. So stop creating false hope Lawrie Cox & co.

In the mean time - stop jerking around and get with AIPA, JPA etc and put an end to the turf wars which are enveloping the Jetstar pilot group.

[DutchRoll]

"Flights being cancelled" is merely propoganda being spread by the "pilot shortage" brigade, more wishfull thinking than fact.
I take it then, that you are implying that there is a plentiful supply of pilots everywhere. No shortage of recruits. No reduction in experience requirements to keep the flow up.

OK, I completely retract the "another planet" statement, and change it to "another parallel universe where reality runs backwards".

And there is of course no "propaganda" being spread by JQ or QF Management, who are all fine upstanding honest citizens when it comes to making statements about their Company's performance, aren't they?;)

[blow.n.gasket]

Well VH-JJW they had better hurry and sign them up before the next sitting of Parliament hadn't they.
Tick Tock, times running out for the Dixon Plan!:}

[TurbTool]

I take it then, that you are implying that there is a plentiful supply of pilots everywhere. No shortage of recruits. No reduction in experience requirements to keep the flow up.

Not at all. All my point was is that Jetstar is not cancelling flights for lack of tech crew, in spite of posts to that effect.

Jetstar, like Qantas and VB, still has a supply of pilots willing to join. If that should change there are still a number of things they could do to extend that supply, including reviewing past applicants who may not have made a particular score in the psyc assessment, or perhaps looking at older experienced turboprop drivers who don't yet have jet experience. Imagine if J* offerred to provide the type rating to current VB drivers at no cost. I think it would cause a stampede.

There is a pilot shortage, there is a lower experience base in Australia at this time but there is not yet a shortage of pilots at Jetstar.

[strobe12]

TurbTool, what makes u think that VB pilots would stampeded across to J*?

Not saying they wouldnt but dont know why they would. Can u give some insight?

[TurbTool]

A number that I know have had enough of constant overnights, long duty hours compared to flight time, long time away from family. A number are now quite experienced fos with no prospect of a B737 Command in their base for some time. Others just would like a choice of somewhere to live other than the big 3, SYD, BNE or MEL. Some like the idea of progressing to widebody international ops. there are quite a few good reasons. The requirement to buy an A320 endorsement is a bit of a stumbling block.

[coaldemon]

As always talk in the bar about being unhappy goes along the lines of " I'm not happy that I am doing overnights because the wife isn't happy etc" Then in the next breath "but I need the allowances I get on the overnights because the wife spends all of my salary" . Most guys consider the allowances as part of their ongoing salary so taking a Jetstar domestic position is usually a but of a fall in pay which most pilots won't do. Makes for great conversation but I doubt that a lot of guys would jump if the endorsements were salary sacrificed or bonded ( which would be the last thing the irish gnome would want as it will impact the bottom line). The only time it will come into effect is before a pilot accepts a position with VB or Jetstar.

[drshmoo]

Imagine if J* offerred to provide the type rating to current VB drivers at no cost. I think it would cause a stampede.


Ummmmmm


hahahahhahahahhahahhahahaha
Stampede.... stop it, it hurts

[CaptCloudbuster]

Heard yesterday that Alan Joyce has gone against his word :rolleyes: and a tweeked EBA offer will soon be put to the divided pilot group.

So Chimbu Chuckles, given you said

the company does not need to rush back to the table given current realities and future probabilities

the reality is I think EBA 4 was as good as you were going to get

This is where the No voters royally fecked up. There was never going to be a 'return to the table' the day after a No vote, or a week, or month after. This was very clear...didn't they believe what they were told?

and

Just how stupid are these people?

will you now admit you were wrong (if my info proves correct) and accept that Jet* management are desperate to lock their pilots in to a substandard deal given the reality of a worldwide shortage of suitably qualified crew?


Fellow Jet* colleagues. before you vote again please first attend the AIPA roadshows coming to your respective bases around the 25th.

Information and solidarity is strength. What have you got to lose?

[dodgybrothers]

Its the same agreement rolled in sugar, to be voted on before the end of workchoices:yuk:

[speeeedy]

Chimbu, genex and Fistfokker, well played....NOT! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

You must be related to that half wit brother of the ex-AIPA president who had remarkably similar predictions for the QF Short haul guys, they didn't listen and sent it back twice. The third offer was MUCH better.

If it's not a LOT better then be prepared to send it back again guys! Good Luck.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Well Played?

The game is not over yet...it's only half time. The second half is going to be genuinely fascinating.

EBA 4 has not changed in any meaningful way but for the sake of pilot unity people who may have voted differently if they knew THEN what they know NOW are being given a second chance.

I think the J* management are to be applauded for their decision to allow the J* pilot body this opportunity.

If it goes down again no one at J* is under any illusions as to what will happen next.

[KRUSTY 34]

Just an observation guys, when was the last time management, any management, attempted to bring forward an EBA negotiation? And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the proposal for 5 years!

Captcloudbuster is right. To allow yourselves to be rushed into an agreement at the behest of management, really should, and I may say has, set the alarm bells ringing. Airline managements all over the world know what's coming, and they probably have only 2 choices.

Actively attract and retain professional pilots by offering superior Terms and Conditions.
Seek to have the substandard Terms and Conditions of the recent past, enshrined in a long term contract.Which one do you think Jet* management are embarking upon?

[CaptCloudbuster]

If it goes down again no one at J* is under any illusions as to what will happen next.

Here's my best guess Chimbu

There is a shortage of qualified FO's available for immediate upgrade within J*'s own ranks to fill the planned expansion.

The current terms and conditions of employment are substandard.

These facts combined ensure - J* management need this EBA to get up yesterday to attract direct entry captains:eek:

Julia Gillard will be unlikely to approve the use of 457 visas.

If we act together

The Qantas Group will be forced to negotiate out of commercial necessity with QANTAS Group Pilots:ok:

[G Cantstandya]

Chumbu,

I seem to recall that you said a couple of weeks ago there will be no return to the table by management and that the JQ pilots had fecked up..

I have not seen anything that has indicated a revised eba4, if there is which you seem to think so, where do you hear this?

Also, if this has happened and it's has not greatly improved I can't see it getting up.

[phantom menace]

"Julia Gillard will be unlikely to approve the use of 457 visas".
They aready have - :}

[Chimbu chuckles]

Cloudbuster how do your J* colleagues fit into the AIPA grand plan as outlined in the last two AIPA newsletters?

As I read it AIPA is adamant that ALL 787s will be flown by mainline with J* 'allowed' to operate a diminishing fleet of A330s.

So how does that support AIPA's claims of protecting/enhancing the careers of ALL QF group pilots?

Some weeks ago I suggested that J* management would not rush back to the table with a BETTER offer if EBA 4 was voted down. I stand by that position.

I have heard on the grape vine that a significant number of J* pilots were considering accepting AWAs on EBA 4 T*Cs. I have further heard that some J* pilots may have voted differently had they understood that was a possible outcome.

Perhaps, JUST perhaps, J* management is considering that before going down the AWA path a revote may deliver a better outcome for all parties.

[Gingerbread]

Seems that dear old Chimbu isn't as up front as he ought to be?

If Ppruners can get hold of two issues AIPA Insights dear old Chimbu refers to, the closest one can find to Chimbu's claim that "AIPA is adamant that ALL 787s will be flown by mainline with J* 'allowed' to operate a diminishing fleet of A330s", is:

"The future of Australian aviation is probably all about global mega carriers, the B787 and Qantas having sufficient pilots to flexibly crew all 115 of them. As I see it, either the Group Opportunity Allocation List (GOAL) is created as soon as possible or ultimately Qantas Mainline flies all the B787s and Qantas Jetstar all the A330s while QantasLink scales back until the global aviation industry stops exponentially growing."

Seems to an innocent bystander that AIPA's President is saying that the future prosperity of the Qantas Group is about unity and flexibility - not divide and conquer?:D

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Chimbu, another PPRUNER with a chip on his shoulder.....:hmm:

[Chimbu chuckles]

No chip here...I simply hold a different, perhaps more realistic, view...only time will tell.

[Keg]

Chim, another comment written by the AIPA president in a different forum....

...is the need to ensure that both Mainline and Jetstar pilots actually get to fly more than just a handful of the B787's QAL has on order...

Pretty clear there I reckon.

[TurbTool]

G Cantstandya

I have not seen anything that has indicated a revised eba4, if there is which you seem to think so, where do you hear this?

If you read the first post on this topic you will probably see where somebody (Chimbu) might have gleaned that info. Don't forget it is a rumour network.

[Chimbu chuckles]

It is a complete waste of time trying to discuss issues like this because the vast majority of posters seem caught up in some sort of trench mentality where they are incapable of seeing the woods for the trees.

Many of you need to look up 'negotiation' and 'in good faith' in a dictionary.

J* management brought forward the EBA because they probably thought, like we all do, that experienced pilots are getting a little thin on the ground.

They and the JPC have tried to come up with a package that would retain current pilots and attract those they need to crew planned expansion. There is not a manager worth the title who is going to pay 1 cent more than he needs to...AIPA/AFAP or JPC can suggest anything they like and if management doesn't think it reasonable they say NO...you can sit there and turn red in the face and it will achieve precisely nothing except make you look silly...even if you're right.

I have yet to see anything that hints either AIPA or AFAP have suggested the actual money on offer was not a pretty reasonable outcome.

Had EBA 4 been voted up a few weeks ago what would have been the result?

I think it likely all pilots, including those employed currently on an AWA, would have been offered employment on EBA 4. Most pilots in the company would have realised a substantial payrise...certainly those the company wants to retain...Captains for the most part.

Remember no one is actually leaving J*...certainly not captains. If a bunch of FOs head off to the sandpit so what? Believe it or not there are enough youngsters out there who are prepared to salary sacrifice an A320 type rating for the T&Cs currently on offer.

There actually wouldn't be THAT many current FOs at J* who qualify for an asian/sandpit airline...the longest serving J* FO has been in what, 15 months? Given current expansion plans every single current FO will be a captain within 2 years if they meet the standards. In my view any current FO who is stupid enough to (even want to) jump ship and head off at this point in time should be viewed as mentally defective and waved off with a sigh of relief.

So should J* be worried if say 10 or even 20 FOs resigned for 'better' T*Cs somewhere else...I actually don't think so given I know of 10 experienced guys who would replace them near instantly...much more experienced than those FOs who might leave...guys with YEARS more experience on A320s than any current J* FO...and less than 2 years to command!

Should the company be worried about 10 or 20 captains leaving...yes most certainly...although to date they have lost how many?

One figure I heard was...One.

If EBA 4 did not achieve their twin goals of attract and retain those they want to attract and retain what would have happened next?

Well if you honestly believe J* would not have come back to the JPC and the unified pilot group and opened up further negotiation in good faith to achieve those twin goals then I am sorry but you're an idiot.

It might even happen that in the fullness of time IF this pilot shortage is as deep as we all hope and IF the regional economies hold up that J* pilots unified under EBA 4.3 might be on substantially better T&Cs than EBA 4 provides...but an attitude of "We want it now, stick it up those bastards" will NOT achieve that outcome...all that would achieve is management convinced they have retards flying their aircraft.

Compare CX and KA given what I have said above...insignificant (but possibly increasing) numbers leaving CX and they get a 'desultory' 3% payrise that doesn't come close to keeping up with inflation. Pilots leaving KA in DROVES and they get a 20% payrise...which may or may not be enough to achieve KA's goal of retaining and attracting pilots...in fact at present it actually doesn't look like it will be enough.

Does anyone think the CX 'A' scale came into existence because Swire Group was staffed by managers who loved throwing money at pilots? The 'A' scale was simply what it took at the time to attract and retain pilots in HK...I personally think we will see an A scale offered again in parts of asia.

The airline where I work had few pilots leave for many years...because the overall package was pretty damn good...then in the last few years that has changed substantially due currency exchange rate fluctuations (not the companies fault but certainly their problem) and other factors so we got a payrise...and we're now experiencing the beginnings of a further exodus...probably captains and probably big enough to make the last look like a non event (some coming home to Oz)...and as it unfolds I have no doubt we'll get another pay rise. If not they will be parking jets...very soon.

Now had they raised our pay by twice or three times what we got a year or so back we all would have been thrilled to bits but it just does not work that way...any manager seriously suggesting it would find their employment status changing rapidly.

You need to stick your head above the parapet sometimes and take an unemotional look around...having surveyed your surroundings you need to come up with a reasoned, adult response to what you see.

I don't think the recent NO vote qualified.

[blueys]

Chimbu
5 all check&tng plus 2 long term sick leave, several interviewed and sim completed awaiting result of EBA4 .A trickle so far but the mood is changing.

[Flava Saver]

It amuses me how so many people who don't work for Jetstar (or the Qantas Group) seem to be the most vocal regarding our EBA. People should maybe look after their own back yards, before worrying about ours.

[jakethemuss]

The problem with that champ, is that the terms and conditions that you guys agree to are then used as a benchmark for all other players in the industry to negotiate against.

People are just trying to save you from yourselves at times. The first deal got you the jobs at the cheapest price. Now you have the jobs, why do you continue to do **** deals way below industry average?

That's why people take an interest, because what you do, whether you like it or not, DIRECTLY affects others outside of your little circle.

[Gingerbread]

Chimp, further to your statement that, "I have yet to see anything that hints either AIPA or AFAP have suggested the actual money on offer was not a pretty reasonable outcome."

I recall reading somewhere a while back that when questioned by Qantas and AFAP lawyers in the course of the AIRC hearing to allow AIPA to constitutionally cover all Qantas group pilots, that AIPA's El Presidentie said something like:

Jetstar Domestic should enjoy Virgin Blue wages (which are now roughly 15% below Qantas short-haul wages), and

Jetstar International should enjoy Australian Airlines wages which was set up on the basis of being 15% more cost effective than Qantas International.

Had Jetstar pilots voted up EBA 4, it looks as if the A320 pilots would be close to on par with Virgin B737 pilots but Jetstar A330 pilots would still be more than 15% behind what Qantas pays its A330 pilots.

Over the years I have had quite a few conversations with AIPA's El Presidentie and that the man's strategic thinking is light years ahead of most pilots and Qantas management, is why he is sometimes misunderstood and referred to as the nutty professor. If anyone can save the Qantas group from itself, he can. Provided the wets on his committee stop trying to tie his shoelaces.

Best thing Qantas group pilots can do is join AIPA and support his push for a master seniority list.:D

[AnQrKa]

"Pilots leaving KA in DROVES and they get a 20% payrise...which may or may not be enough to achieve KA's goal of retaining and attracting pilots...in fact at present it actually doesn't look like it will be enough."

Which just goes to show that despite what pilots verbalize in the security of crew room group think, money is NOT the key criteria for job selection. KA is a high paying position, but people are leaving because its a boring job in a crap part of the world with no future.

More people have left KA for JQ than vice versa.

[CaptCloudbuster]

"Julia Gillard will be unlikely to approve the use of 457 visas".
They aready have

Quote from AIPA President on QREWROOM 17/02


Yes I am aware that: "a company representative stated that Qantaslink already had a number of 457 visas approved for foreign pilots."

And AIPA checked with the offices of the Ministers of Immigration and Transport and was informed by the respective Ministerial staffers that; "to the best of their knowledge, incoming Labor Ministers had not recommended or approved any new 457 Visas for foreign pilots."

As I understand it, ALP policy requires applicants for 457 Visas to satisfactorily demonstrate that the issue of requested 457 Visas would not drive down Australian wages and/or allow the corporate applicant to avoid the expense of training Australian employees and I believe Qantas has yet to do this?

Nonetheless, until AIPA actually sits down sometime in March with the Ministers of Immigration and Transport to discuss what AIPA believes Qantas needs to do before the Government approves any 457 Visas for pilots, one can never be absolutely certain what is on the drawing boards.


The above is but one example why representation / membership of an organisation like AIPA is paramount in workplace negotiations.

JPC - take up the offer of partnership with AIPA to enhance your information base and tools for negotiatioins.

You still get to decide you're own future - only better prepared:ok:

[Flava Saver]

Jake

You're preaching to the preacher. I voted No. :ok:

[standard]

A number are now quite experienced fos with no prospect of a B737 Command in their base for some time. Others just would like a choice of somewhere to live other than the big 3, SYD, BNE or MEL. Some like the idea of progressing to widebody international ops.

Mate, Im sure there are plently of Guys in Mainline that would like those oppurtunities too, right before they were sold out by the JPC, who agreed to an absoloutly sh*thouse deal, particularly to secure the International flying.. So crap infact the deal that they dont even want to work to the agreement!!!

You are kidding if you think there would be a stampede!

[Keith Myath]

Captain Cloudbuster

Here's my best guess Chimbu

There is a shortage of qualified FO's available for immediate upgrade within J*'s own ranks to fill the planned expansion.

True, hence the DEC campaign in South Africa (15 currently employed and undergoing various short courses prior to line training --CRM, Security, EP’s)

The current terms and conditions of employment are substandard.


True, and the proposed conditions under EBA 4 are also substandard.

These facts combined ensure - J* management need this EBA to get up yesterday to attract direct entry captains:eek:


This is where you are wrong, J* management do not need this EBA to succeed to continue to attract DEC’s. Management will continue to attract all the DEC’s they require through AWA’s on BETTER conditions than the current EBA. Remember, he changes to the workchoices legislation will still allow AWA’s for high income earners (>$100,000)


Julia Gillard will be unlikely to approve the use of 457 visas.

If we act together


I am still of the opinion that the proposed EBA is crap. We should have been able to achieve so much more, with the proviso that the pilot group remained united. I voted NO, and believed that the will of the majority of the pilots would have been respected, I thought that I knew the consequences of a no vote. However, in light of recent events stemming from about 4 hours after the close of the vote I fail to see how a fractured pilot group can achieve any better. As one of the NO voters, I will change my vote if it means new pilots will be on EBA 4 with the majority of current pilots (I believe current AWA pilots will still be excluded). The events following the vote are farcical and tragic, a sad inditement of the divisions evident within the pilot body. The ONLY way forward is united, and if this is voted down again we know what will happen. This is not a threat from management, ironically it is our own brethren that has precipitated the split.

[The_Equaliser]

Why the lies.

The only people employed by J* meet Australian residency requirements. No 457 visas for pilots in Oz yet! The threat of 457 visas is an empty threat by a worried management, who are soon to lose control of the IR system and the future IR agenda. The close relationship between AIPA and the unions/ALP, derided by some AIPA members prior to the last Federal Election, is about to bear fruit.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

457's for pilots should be approved - and I've no doubt the government will approve them in the next 12 months. If not then the government is not serious about trying to restrict inflation. Obviously current pilots' like ourselves will not reap the rewards of a severe shortage if this happens.

It's interesting to note though that Wayne Swan has been doing what Nobel Prize Winning Economist Milton Friedman warned against in terms of anchoring inflationary expectations. He's done more damage in a few months than anyone in Australia could do over the course of a year. He's talked up inflation and as a result made it a self fulfilling prophecy.

But hey, what would a Nobel Prize Winning economist know right? :rolleyes:

[fistfokker]

Maybe we could all pause to consider how the willingness of Aussie pilots to flood overseas in large numbers to all areas of the globe have held down opportunities for locals in those countries.

The airlines concerned would have been forced to train locals, pay better, provide better working conditions etc.

Why is it that Australian pilots should be protected from the globalisation of the industry while the rest of the world is not?

[standard]

457's for pilots should be approved - and I've no doubt the government will approve them in the next 12 months. If not then the government is not serious about trying to restrict inflation

Are you serious?.. if you think that the pilot shortage.. or for that matter anything to do with Aviation is a dictator of Inflation and could be a measuring tool for inflation you are kidding yourself!!!

457s should not be allowed for the simple reason that they are a tool to sourse offshore Labour in the event that there is not adequate labour provisions in the Australian Economy.. This is clearly not the case!!!

There are plenty of qualified pilots to fill any Jet* seats it is just the fact that management want to crew these flights as cheap as possible, and are happy to risk safety (by utilising less qualified, perhaps inadequatly trained/ experienced pilots) to do so!!!!

The threat of 457 visas is an empty threat by a worried management,

Its empty threats that the JPC signed off on sh*t house conditions to secure their own positions!! and now there is talk of 100 or so of the JPC members screwing their mates to cover their own arses and threatening AWA's!! when are these blokes going to stop screwing the Industry both present and future pilots!!!

United we Bargain.. Divided we beg!! As a group of Australian pilots we really need to realise just how strong our position as a group is.. there is a global shortage.. FACT! but stabbing each other in the back will acheive nothing! working together and preasuring management (of all Australian Airlines will acheive results).. its happening overseas.. it CAN happen hear to secure Australian Jobs with the suitable and respectable remuniration and conditions that we all deserve.

[TurbTool]

Mate, Im sure there are plently of Guys in Mainline that would like those oppurtunities too, right before they were sold out by the JPC, who agreed to an absoloutly sh*thouse deal, particularly to secure the International flying.. So crap infact the deal that they dont even want to work to the agreement!!!

Are you suggesting that only QF mainline pilots are entitled to aviation opportunities in Australia?

There are more than enough willing to jump from mainline to Jetstar to take up opportunities. So many in fact that Qantas stopped honouring the MOU. Some even took employment under AWAs to do it. Some have resigned from Qantas to go to J* for those opportunities.

I am not implying there is anything wrong with that, just fact.

I don't understand the last point in your comment, but If they don't want to work to the agreement then they should do something about it, or leave. It is that simple. It is a fact that pilots are not leaving J*, so maybe the deal is not cr@p.

[standard]

Some even took employment under AWAs to do it. Some have resigned from Qantas to go to J* for those opportunities.

I think you should chek your facts in Regards to the AWA's, and yes it is under the MOU that a mainline pilot must resign to accept a Command.

My last point implies the fact that the JPC accepted the terms of the 330 to secure there own promotion with little to no regard on how much they were selling themselves short, then the majority have not taken the 330 positions because of how poor they infact are!! .. but then i suppose that if you can go form 1900 driver to 320/330 driver in as little time as possible, after not being accepted to mainline.. then why not screw everyone in the process!!

[jakethemuss]

HIGH-income earners should take the lead in the fight against inflation, Deputy Prime Minister Julia Gillard says.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd announced this week that federal MPs would take a pay freeze this year in an effort to fight inflation.

The Government has called on big business to follow suit and apply a pay freeze on the income of executives.

Ms Gillard said everybody in the community needs to work together with the Government to try to defeat inflation.

She said high-income earners were in the best position to take the lead and show restraint.

"Part of what happened this week was politicians saying to the community we get it, we understand it, that there's a need for restraint and we are prepared to show that restraint ourselves through a wages freeze,'' Ms Gillard told ABC Television.

"What we are saying to working families is that inflation is an enemy for them.

"It is people at the upper income end who can most easily show restraint and one of the reasons that the Prime Minister decided this week on the wages freeze is politicians are in that category

[jakethemuss]

Think the Labor Party is going to save ya!


THINK AGAIN.


Now, how do you achieve the gains?


Think about it! You directly control a lot of the costs. Get smarter, not harder.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

e you serious?.. if you think that the pilot shortage.. or for that matter anything to do with Aviation is a dictator of Inflation and could be a measuring tool for inflation you are kidding yourself!!!


Yes of course Standard. Transportation costs have absolutely no cost, right? :rolleyes: That's why the price of oil (and it's refined products) has had no effect overall on the economy. :rolleyes:

What is this? "The Wiggles" school of economics?

United we Bargain.. Divided we beg!

Statements like that just show how weak you are and why you shouldn't be paid more. You've just highlighted that the only worth you have is in units of 1000. Sounds like a nice arrangement for second degree price discrimination. :E

[fistfokker]

Standard, you sound like one angry aggrieved person. Maybe you feel you have good reason.

It is hard to reconcile "working together", "united we bargain" etc with accusing the elected representatives of J* pilots with "backstabbing "to secure their own position".

There are plenty of qualified pilots to fill any Jet* seats it is just the fact that management want to crew these flights as cheap as possible, and are happy to risk safety (by utilising less qualified, perhaps inadequatly trained/ experienced pilots) to do so!!!!

Naturally management wants to employ pilots as cheaply as possible, just as pilots want to be paid as much as possible. Why would you think management would want to risk safety? Their jobs depend on safety as well.

All pilots have been "less experienced/qualified" at some time in their career. There is no evidence that J* employs "inadaquately trained/experienced pilots" as you suggest.

I would like to suggest you take a deep breath, look at yourself in a clear light and chill out a little. Think about how to contribute something positive and constructive to the future instead of belittling the efforts of others, that you so clearly no little about.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I take it then, that you are implying that there is a plentiful supply of pilots everywhere. No shortage of recruits. No reduction in experience requirements to keep the flow up.


Sounds like great justification for the introduction of 457 Visa's for Pilots. Even the pilots are now arguing the case that management have been insisting in Canberra for their introduction!

little to no regard on how much they were selling themselves short People will choose what suits them. I still to this day find it surprising that people would argue against the right of people to accept jobs they are happy with - simply because they would not be happy with those arrangments.

You don't want to clean toilets for $12 an hour but that doesn't mean you should be telling those that do that they should not be accepting those conditions!

Individual Choice :ok:

[standard]

Pass, perhaps if you stopped investing your time in watching the wiggles, whether for enjoyment or education you might stop to realise what infact inflation is! In fact the couter measures of Inflation ie.. increased interest rates, taxes etc directly and adversly effect aviation, put simply inflation and its associated devices effects the disposable income we have to spend and as such, the controls of inflation directly effect how much we have to spend on the luxuries such as recreational travel.

Pilots wages, i believe are not an indicator, nor should be a measure of the economic situation. The basic models of economics are that of supply and demand.. and as such can dictate, where negotiated properly the value of a comodity ie.. our wages!. Yes it is basic business to get the same product(labour) at the cheapest price.. but at what risk?..

Statement like "united we bargain, divided we beg" are weak?, have a hard look at yourself if you honestly believe that... mate fill your boots and see how far you get by yourself... its as a group we acheive, its as teams we accomplish, in the meantime.. fly solo mate and enjoy yourself!!!

that you so clearly no little about., i think youll find that 'know' would be the appropriate spelling.

[standard]

You don't want to clean toilets for $12 an hour but that doesn't mean you should be telling those that do that they should not be accepting those conditions!

Individual Choice



Mate that is where you are wrong.. individually nothing is acheived!!!...

But in the meantime it couldnt hurt for you to suggest that youll clean the toilets on a turn around for $12.. the cabin crew probably get paid $13.. management will love you!! but hey its your choice!!!!.. just dont miss that spot behind the bowl!! and wash your hands!

[TurbTool]

I think you should chek your facts in Regards to the AWA's, and yes it is under the MOU that a mainline pilot must resign to accept a Command.

I do know my facts and it is FACT that some of the QF FOs that took A330 commands in J* accepted an AWA to get that command. To resign from QF to get a command in J* suggests to me that the conditions on offer were acceptable to that pilot. I don't understand why it is acceptable for a QF pilot to take a command on the A330 in Jetstar but not for Jetstar pilots to want that command. Remember they voted in the MOU as well, for GROUP solidarity. What did they get in return, in the short term?

My last point implies the fact that the JPC accepted the terms of the 330 to secure there own promotion with little to no regard on how much they were selling themselves short,

If they were selling themselves short can you explain why Qantas mainline pilots are falling over themselves to accept those positions on those terms and conditions.


then the majority have not taken the 330 positions because of how poor they infact are!! ..

I don't know where you get your info from but there is no shortage from within J* for A330 positions, with A320 Captains champing at the bit, as a result of delayed 787s.

but then i suppose that if you can go form 1900 driver to 320/330 driver in as little time as possible, after not being accepted to mainline.. then why not screw everyone in the process!!

Arrr. The old chestnut. Not accepted into mainline therefore NOT a real pilot. I think history has shown over and over that to be NOT accepted into mainline does NOT mean that a person is not a competent pilot or indeed better off for the experience. It may surprise you to find that some at J* were acceptable to Qantas but chose not to go there, after seeing the type of personality that they would be required to work with. You obviously don't know that many at mainline never went through the mainline selection process either. To suggest that a pilot who is "not good enough to join mainline" should actually pass up an opportunity to work in Australia because it "might disadvantage a pilot who is good enough to join mainline" is laughable in the extreme.

[fistfokker]

, i think youll find that 'know' would be the appropriate spelling.

Not that I am the spelling police, but does anyone else see the irony of Standard lecturing other people on the "standard" of their spelling, (see Standards's other posts) not to mention the appropriate use of capital letters and grammar.

[standard]

Point noted and accepted, thankyou. :)

[EPIRB]

TurbTool, all leave of absence applications, not only for Jetstar, were stopped by the company due to the fact that they couldn't afford to let anymore pilots go due to the expansion plans.
Also, would you QF/Jetstar pilots stop slagging each other off and work as one group to improve conditions? Is that too much to ask?

[I'm Driving]

Also Tool. Those pilots that took up the opportunity for a Jetstar A330 command, went under a flight standing order that allowed them to take a leave of absence for 3 years. They did not resign from Qantas, and once they are finished their 3 year commitment they will return to QF in whatever capacity their seniorty will achieve. They did not resign from QF so they could be A330 captains in Jetstar. The humorous thing is they would all have QF commands now if they had stayed, but when the opportunity presented itself, they didn't know that.

[toolish]

Posted by KM, a revote will get up because of the enemy within.
I also voted NO but will vote YES next because of the action of people like CC(assumption). A unified Qantas group is now highly unlikely because we cant even maintain a unified Jetstar group following the vote(awa being asked for hours after the vote finalised)



I am still of the opinion that the proposed EBA is crap. We should have been able to achieve so much more, with the proviso that the pilot group remained united. I voted NO, and believed that the will of the majority of the pilots would have been respected, I thought that I knew the consequences of a no vote. However, in light of recent events stemming from about 4 hours after the close of the vote I fail to see how a fractured pilot group can achieve any better. As one of the NO voters, I will change my vote if it means new pilots will be on EBA 4 with the majority of current pilots (I believe current AWA pilots will still be excluded). The events following the vote are farcical and tragic, a sad inditement of the divisions evident within the pilot body. The ONLY way forward is united, and if this is voted down again we know what will happen. This is not a threat from management, ironically it is our own brethren that has precipitated the split.

[genex]

The Qantas mainline pilots want the 787. Full stop. And they want it on their terms. Reminds me of a T-shirt my then teenage daughter had "I want it all and I want it on room service".

Unfortunately Qantas' competitors are laughing themselves stupid over the naivety of AIPA's stance and really hoping that AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar. Then you'll see the carnage.

Currently the 787 is predicted to be about 2-3000 lbs overweight with a SFC shortfall. Add AIPA demands to that and it'll barely make money even when full. No doubt however what it lacks in substance would be made up for in style.

The Heritage Airline days went. Maybe you didn't notice but they've just gone and the Group needs to be competitive.

And I don't know many JQ pilots but I sincerely hope none is dumb enough to fall for the "I'm from AIPA and I'm here to help you" BS.

[Going Boeing]

Your posts are full of anti-mainline vitriol and you spruik Alan Joyce's words as if they are gospel. He is a manipulator of staff so that he can maximise his salary/bonus (he is not on a LCC CEO package). You sound like a "pawn" who is happy to deny your family a better lifestyle just to allow AJ to live like a king. The Jetstar pilots that I have spoken to, indicate that your views are definitely in the minority.

AIPA does not want to take over. Jetstar pilots would vote for their members (hopefully with bigger kohunas (& more independence from management) than the current JPC) who they want to handle the negotiations. They would enter into negotiations with all the industrial support and experience that has been built up over many years. The outcome will be much better for Jetstar pilots and does not involve mainline trying to take over.

[genex]

Now I am really confused. Somehow AIPA wants the JPA to get "bigger kohunas". As I understand it you mean "Kahuna", some sort of Hawaiian priest or magician. Such a person would no doubt bring more industrial expertise to the Qantas Group than AIPA can. So good point.

If on the other hand you meant "cojones" which is another thing all together and relates to testicular dimensions.....then AIPA would certainly be the wrong place to look. because while to Heritage Fleet Dinosaur pilots "balls" = " I hate Jetstar"......to most others balls are part of that wonderfully complex mechanism via which the human species ensures its own survival. I hardly think that AIPA's thus far non-stellar role in ensuring the Group's future matches that analogy. More like a condom really....play it real safe....ensure no regeneration...and end up discarded.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

The major reason I hardly frequent PPRUNE any more is because of dickheads like PAF and Genex who dribble **** out of their little gobs that they don't know anything about, or are too naive to know anything about what they profess to talk about anyway. :yuk::yuk::yuk:
(PS. Signed up recently with AIPA and have been quite impressed with the expertise that they have to offer)

[genex]

Enema thingy....I am glad you're happy with AIPA. They do a good job looking after AIPA members. It's just that for decades, that's where it stops. For the rest and for the Group's future and Jetstar's robustness.....AIPA is as useful to growth, jobs and competitiveness as a bicycle is to a fish.

[speeeedy]

They do a good job looking after AIPA members. It's just that for decades, that's where it stops.

Well said genex, for once.

So Jetstar guys, you have heard it from genex (who I reckon has to be Jetstar management, read his posts you will agree), sign up to AIPA and you will be looked after.

The recent actions after the vote my those on and closely connected with the JPA should send a clear message to you all, most of the JPA guys are in the managements pocket.

[genex]

Oh dear, wrong on almost every count. And you should have read all my post.

The thing is, from any objective viewpoint, the Qantas Group has a big challenge ahead, with competition hotting up on all fronts. In what universe would Qantas NOT start up a LCC to compete. If the AIPA strategy is to increase the size of the Heritage Fleet and promise to pay all pilots much much more then I reiterate.....AIPA is as useful to the group's competitiveness as a bicycle is to a fish.

However in the task of destroying Jetstar and the short term gain of a few 787 jobs, AIPA might be very effective. Be the first time though.

[speeeedy]

genex you demonstrate a remarkable ability to totally misunderstand (probably deliberately) the AIPA viewpoint.

It has been clearly enunciated many times that this is not about Qantas mainline, this is about the Qantas Group - that includes Mainline LH & SH, Qlink AND Jetstar.

AIPA does not have the inclination to choose which airlines the group places resources in (they know they don't have that power), but they want to have unity so that one party can not be played off against another. It really is that simple.

This is what a group opportunity list is all about.

It also will solve the impending Pilot recruitment issues for Qlink and Jetstar because who wouldn't want a career where the long term choices are so varied? As far as the company is concerned, with the right limits in place the cost of training could actually be less!

Why don't they want it? It comes back to Unity, they don't want us to have it, it is so obvious, even you must see that, right?

Jetstar on legacy conditions.... No No No. Again you have no idea of what AIPA has said, they see a place for very different T&C's for a LCC, but forgive them if they think it should be 1st world LCC wages that they seek rather than 3rd world. Virgin and AO or there abouts is what had been stated by AIPA I believe.

As for mainline T&C's, I think there is realism there... In fact AIPA told the company at the beginning of EBA8 that "everything" was on the table to streamline the award. The companies response was that they didn't have the IT resources to do massive changes so best to tinker round the edges like they have done for years.

Any comments from management about the "convoluted" LH award should be taken with a grain of salt, given that they couldn't be stuffed to enter into meaningful discussions about fixing it.

If Jetstar guys choose AIPA to represent them then guess what? It will be a group of Jetstar guys that do the work, not dreaded mainline guys trying to steal their 787's. In fact it will be a lot like the JPA, but this time they'll be getting advice from AIPA rather than Oldmeadow, that has to be better does it not? (maybe you are Oldmeadow? it would make a lot of sense!).

[Gingerbread]

Everyone who reads Prune knows that it is a rumour network and rumours can be misleading but blatant deception is not acceptable

Take for example Mr Genex's posts above

The Qantas mainline pilots want the 787. Full stop. And they want it on their terms......Unfortunately Qantas' competitors are laughing themselves stupid over the naivety of AIPA's stance and really hoping that AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar.

Obviously Mr Genex doesn't know, and sounds like he would prefer if Ppruners didn't know either, that AIPA is very supportive of a Group Opportunity List (GOAL) which would like all Qantas group pilots.

According to those I speak to on AIPA’s committee, while career progress would be in accordance with the GOAL, those who choose to fly for Qantas are on mainline T's & C's, those who choose to fly for Jetstar are on Jetstar T's & C's and Qantaslink has its own T's & Cs.

The BS like AIPA's wants to destroy Jetstar by destroying the LCC concept is just that - BS.

Jetstar crews wanting to find out what the real story is need to get along to one of the Open Forums AIPA is hosting in:
-Brisbane at the Riverview Hotel at 2pm on the 25/02/08,
-Adelaide at the Hilton Hotel at 2pm on the 26/02/08,
-Melbourne at the Airport Hilton Hotel at 2pm on the 27/02/08 and
-Sydney at AIPA conference room (Level 6, 247 Coward St Mascot) at 2pm on the 29/02/08.

In the meantime Mr Genex should tell us all how he thinks Jetstar is going to get the experienced pilots its needs to grow the business if Jetstar can’t get access to mainlines 10 yr+ F/O’s?:rolleyes:

[Mr. Boeing]

And while we're at it, maybe Genex could reveal his source that he gets this comment from Unfortunately Qantas' competitors are laughing themselves stupid over the naivety of AIPA's stance and really hoping that AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar. and also exactly what Add AIPA demands to that and it'll barely make money even when full. AIPA's demands are?

[Mr. Hat]

Could some one in th know summarise what the voted down agreement involved.

Is it true there will be a b scale for new hires?

[I'm Driving]

Not only are genex's comments complete fabrications (if not lies), the statement about an aircraft not making money because of "AIPA's demands" shows his ignorance to real economics.


He/she is Bulls&*t artist, pure and simple.

[Angle of Attack]

AIPA is as useful to growth, jobs and competitiveness as a bicycle is to a fish.

Hey Genex! Bikes provide good structure and reef forming areas when dumped in the sea, very useful to fish!! Ive seen it first hand!

['holic]

G'day genex,

Keep up the excellent posts.

As an obvious management stooge/wannabe/brown nose, your posts full of blatant lies and half arsed arguments are quite convincing.

Convincing, in that any thinking line pilot should realise that if management see AIPA as such a threat, perhaps they better join.

Beats any roadshow :ok:

[genex]

Yawn.........time for bed children. You've had a big day Jumping to conclusions, Running down dead end tracks, Plastering over cracks in your own arguments and Making your own bed so you can lie in it. (Gee I'm good!).

Look, I've been flying a long time all over the world. I honestly think that the B777 was what God had in mind when He invented flying. I have shared skies with many of you and cockpits with some. I am neither a fool nor an ogre.BUt I have sen a lot of this before.

I am simply, in the nicest CRM way....sharing some thoughts about how Qantas might best meet the challenges ahead. Of those thoughts some are no doubt wrong or mis-guided. My joy is in the forum, not getting my own way. I only ask that AIPA take itself with the same dash of salt and remember that much as we think that we know it all in the cockpit (as we should!)....outside of it there are competing ideas. I have lived in worlds where jobs faded like snow in the sun and it is not fun. Afterwards is too late that's all I'm trying to say.

Safe flying. It has been a long day and new challenges will come tomorrow. Chill.

[dodgybrothers]

genex;

simple yes or no answer, are you Jetstar management?

[Angle of Attack]

Genex!

And Simple question do you agree that bicyles on the sea bed can make fantastic artificial reefs for fish? Very very beneficial! I think its called a symbiotic relationship, probably a word you dont know being in management!
Either way Im heading out for another fishing day tomorrow! Wish me luck! Hopefully I dont catch too many bikes! But lots of fish! Well I always do anyway! hehe!:E

[Patty O'Furniture]

facts:

-this revote includes awa's (ie: those whom in which the previous vote did not apply to)

- the offer that is being revoted applies to captains (good bonuses) and cfo's (doubling their pay)(those who the majority were under eba's)

- this eba is intended to lock pilots in for 5 years, underpaid, in the biggest pilot shortage this country has seen.

- the conditions offered will not compete aginst rival carriers when 'competing' for fo's. hence no new pilots.

- no increase for training captains despite dealing with guys with less and less experience.

- a management bonus, not a performance bonus. which means u will get less if the comapny is not performing and more if the company is performing despite rocking up and doing the same job every day.

- u will still pay for your jepps on the a320

- u will still pay for your medical.

To those captains who want their 20g this winter: DO NOT VOTE THIS IN.

the jpa is a joke, let's get some proper representation and get it sorted, for the long term.

[Higs]

Thankyou, finally someone post some info about the "offer" rather than a slanging match AFAP..AIPA... blah blah blah. Post are more interesting when they can keep on track.

[stevie g]

Don't vote too soon .... the libs have just announced they got it wrong on AWA's ..... so will be voting in the senate to abolish them ....

Hockey - "I don't think many ministers in cabinet were aware that you could be worse off under Work Choices and that you could actually have certain conditions taken away without compensation," .... really!

So just wait ...... any new agreement won't allow for AWA's.

[blow.n.gasket]

Just a heads up for the nimrods negotiating the "New Deal "that was never to be ,"Take it or leave it, this is as good as it's going to get", you know the one!,
just make sure your new contract abides by the new Award rules and it's 10 mandatory provisions, if not ,demand them, you're entitled to them .

P.S. any JetStar F/O had better ask some questions reference what the new deal with Direct entry Captains is! Wouldn't want your 2 years to command to slip away now would you.:ooh:

[blow.n.gasket]

Well Gee Wizz, AIPA's been around since the early 80's and 'till recently could legally only look after Mainline pilots, that might explain why they couldn't look after other group pilot problems in the Qantas juggernaught.

Probably just as well they couldn't,either, considering the simpering ,syncophantic would be's that could be, that were acting very much like JPC doppleganger's back then.

Tell me genex, this AIPA mob you're so keen to cane, aren't they the Union representing the pilots of an airline that announced how many $10's of millions profit?
Just how much profit would JetStar make if you stripped out all the cross subsidisation?

I think everyone on this websight is of the opinion, "A fair days pay for a fair day's work", the basis of nearly 110 years of industrial policy in this country ,until little jackboot Johnny got carried away with his WorkChoices Perestroika.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Yes of course Speeedy. AIPA's angle will ensure more pilot's earning more money...

What fantasy land do you live in...

AIPA (and all unions) are about more money for some but FEWER job ops for overall.

[Going Boeing]

PAF - not fantasy-land. Reality-land is that there is a severe pilot shortage and thus we can pursue real pay rises & improvements in Terms and Conditions without causing our peers to miss out on jobs and career development.

AIPA's priorities are (and have always been):-
1. Maintain existing jobs & strive to increase jobs,
2. Maintain existing T's & C's & strive to improve them.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Nice Dream Going Boeing, but not grounded in reality. The higher you price a product (including labour) the lower the demand for that product.

Sure, a shortage shifts the demand curve to the right, but the union driving conditions above the market rate decreases demand.

To take things to an extreme to prove a point: if the union managed to get an EBA up that caused all pilots will be paid $400,000 , do you think that there would be more jobs than if an EBA got up that all pilots will be paid $100,000 ?

This is why I have insisted that Unions are for the domain of the selfish. Looking after themselves. I'm all for people looking after themselves, but let's not go down this path of trying to put forward the illusion that the union pushing for higher T&C's / Pay creates more jobs. It's simply illogical.

Just admit that during a shortage the union can push for higher pay and new jobs will still be created (well depending on the level on the increase!) - but not as many jobs that would have been created otherwise.

What you have argued is that we could increase the price of Airline Tickets and their would be no effect on the number of ticket sales. If that's the case then you are a genius and should be in management - because what that means is that QF could simply increase ticket prices and increase profit.

[speeeedy]

So PAF, if we all accept a wage of $50K there will be such demand for air travel (we'll ignore the FACT that pilots wages are virtually invisible in an airline ticket) that even you might get a gig, is that the theory????

If you only ever believe one thing I say, please believe this: stay where you are, you just won't make it in the real world.

I just love it when a protected species public servant lectures us all about unions!

[Keg]

....but the union driving conditions above the market rate decreases demand.

Hang on a sec though PAF, you're starting from a position with a pretty big straw man and some ill defined boundaries on top of that. First of all, who said that AIPA is driving for conditions above the 'market rate'. QF IS the market for 744 drivers and they were the market for A330 drivers, etc until J* blinked. Now the 'market' is whatever can be negotiated.

You of all people should understand the symbiotic relationship between cost and demand. Why doesn't that apply to pilots as well?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Keg: You make a reasonable point claiming QANTAS to be a Monopsony, however I don't think that applies given the recruiting of overseas airlines. Pilot's are upward and mobile enough to accept a job overseas. If you don't wish to - that's a financial decision you make.

Speedy: Ahhh.. yet another man who on ANZAC day will be yelling "You're all public servants, you bunch of protected species." Let me guess, you respect WWII vets but no-one else right?

Speeedy, If you need to join a union you've admitted you can't survive in the real world alone anyway. Don't lecture me on survival when you need a group of socialists to state your case for you! If you want a union to represent you that's fine - but don't lecture others that they "won't survive in the 'real world'". You get by in the real world by paying other people to deal with it. You don't deal with the real world, you outsource it. Just because you can't deal with what you refer to as the real world doesn't mean others can't.

You're only dealing with the real world at PPRuNe over the last 2 years of your membership appears to be slagging off JetStar. For someone with 11,000 hours there is only one reason why you would do that - trying to convince others below you not to accept jobs they are happy with because you fear it will have an effect on your salary. Is that the real world? Try to bully people into not accepting jobs they aspire to because you feel it may effect the nest you've created?

Real World indeed. I've got your number pegged. Join a union and let them strike the case for your pay rise whilst trying to intimidate those coming through the system to not accept any job you think may effect your position.
(increase your worth by ensuring others can't do your job)

If you think ADF or APS employees are "protected from the real world" then half your salary and apply for a job my friend!

[Keg]

Geez PAFie, I thought you were going to go with something like this!

Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to.

:E

[Chris Higgins]

Pass a Frozo,

So do you think that we should all take 50% pay cuts and pay for a job? Will that attract people of intelligence and integrity to the industry? Will that solve the pilot shortage?

No way! Unions are here to establish a line in the sand that allows new aspiring pilots something to reach for.

By simply selling out, both the airline managers as well as the pilots themselves are destroying the talent pool to draw upon in the future. An airline association and its membership can be one of the most useful resources for an employer. It's when things get out of balance, as has happened in Oz recently, that we see a decline in standards throughout the industry.

[stevie g]

So from my reading of PAF's worldview:

Any one who is a member of a union is a rabid socialist - does that include, say, the doctors associations? Or surgeons associations who look after there members by recommending higher fees? Unions are meant to maximise the "profits" of their members ...... nothing to do with socialism. Even companies are members of associations to represent them JOINTLY in various aspects of their business .... this is the way the REAL world works.

As for moving the demand curve down because pilots want a higher salary - and result in a loss of jobs - doing the math - if a two crew pilot pulls, say $400/hour (generous?), and the average cost of flying say a 737 is say $16,000 an hour (low I'd guess), for a total of $16,400 ..... a 10% pilot payrise would take total costs to $16,440 ... a 0.24% increase! You'd be lucky to lose 0.24% of customers. Should we take a 10% pay cut to get 0.24% more customers. I'd say not .....

So all in all, in a capitalist system where supply and demand are key, when supply of pilots is down and demand is up ..... their price should rise .... unless you don't believe in capitalism.

['holic]

If you need to join a union you've admitted you can't survive in the real world alone anyway. Don't lecture me on survival when you need a group of socialists to state your case for you! If you want a union to represent you that's fine - but don't lecture others that they "won't survive in the 'real world'". You get by in the real world by paying other people to deal with it. You don't deal with the real world, you outsource it. Just because you can't deal with what you refer to as the real world doesn't mean others can't.

Maybe some of us realise that we don't have the time, resources or inclination to individually negotiate our T&Cs.

Maybe some of us realise that the chaos caused by individual contracts would hasten the race to the bottom, compromise standards etc etc.

I would have thought that joining a union would have been the smart way to deal with the real world. (BTW have you ever been there?)

Have you ever worked for wages? Unless you left school and walked straight into a management gig or owned your own business, I can just about guarantee that your remuneration level and T&Cs have been, directly or indirectly, been bettered at some stage by a union. Even the RAAF, which has to compete with the airlines to retain their employees. That is, YOUR salary is affected by how well AIPA, AFAP etc can negotiate.

Are you happy to accept that money?

[speeeedy]

Keg :D

PAF,

Don't you dare bring up ANZAC's in a discussion about wages and conditions you fool! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Nuthinondaclock]

Nicely put Stevie g. The effect of pilot wages on a companies’ bottom line is tiny.

PAF, you obviously haven’t dealt with any Airline management or the Industrial consultants such as Oldmeadow that they retain. (Half ya luck!) These guys do sh%t that would make Machiavelli blush. I’m not ashamed to admit that they would screw me royally if I tried to negotiate an individual contract and I’d be stupid to try. I fly aeroplanes. I don’t have a degree in Industrial Relations and have no inclination to get one. I don’t even WANT to think the way these guys do. To have a Union or Association negotiate my terms and conditions on my (and my colleagues’) behalf makes good sense and doesn’t make me a rabid Communist.

And please, there is no link between getting a Union to negotiate your T & C’s and disrespecting the ANZACS. What a lame link to make.

PS: Good luck when you leave the ADF (Best if you don’t) and try to negotiate your own contract with these guys. Believe me you’ll need it because they’ll see you coming.

Nuthinondaclock.

[The Professor]

Higgins,

". . . that we see a decline in standards throughout the industry."
Surely you would agree that a decline in standards is something the regulator must address. Dont you really mean that we have seen a ". . . decrease in applicant experience levels historically found in the Australian airline industry". The two issues are very different, the latter being a direct result of the boom occuring in the airline industry downunder. Australia has yet to lose a passanger in an airliner jet despite almost a decade of "declining standards". Even with the "decrease in experience levels", Australia STILL has some of the highest experience requirments in the industry.

Stevie G,

Your little example of how pilots are apparently providing thier skillset to their employer for free has little to do with the reality of the business world. Airlines are known to remove magazines from aircraft to save a poofteenth of a cent per seat mile but you seem to think that reducing the wages bill by tens of millions of dollars per year is somehow not worth consideration?

"So all in all, in a capitalist system where supply and demand are key, when supply of pilots is down and demand is up ..... their price should rise .... unless you don't believe in capitalism."

I believe in capitalism very much. But you appear to be a little confused. Your last sentence appears to indicate that you understand the dynamics of supply and demand, the very core of capitalism. And yet the bulk of your post is centred around support for an organization designed specifically to protect you from the vagaries of these market forces and to provide impediments to true market capitalism.

Holic and nothingondaclock,

Market capitalism does not mean to suggest a new era of "individual contracts". Airlines operating in genuinely free labor markets, where market forces are virtually the only driving force behind pilot salaries, still generally use one contract for all similar piloting positions. I dont recall hearing of Jetblue pilots all scrambling to sign up to 3000 different employment contracts, for example.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Speeedy,

The ANZAC day Analogy is this: I am in the military. I usually head out for a drink on ANZAC day. You think my colleagues and I are "protect species, public servants." I know I'll be able to identify you on ANZAC day when out because you'll be the one telling me what you think.

Stevie G,

You are incorrect. It depends on the price elasticity of demand for airline travel. Using you analogy why don't QF just increase the ticket prices by the amount you suggest should be passed on to the crew and pocket the money themselves. IT doesn't

Professor:

Higgins is like most of the hypocritical union sycophants. Cry "Market Forces! Market Forces! when asking for a pay rise then cry unfair if wages go down.

Nuthinondaclock:

If I'm living in a "protected paradise" on great wages, WHY DIDN'T YOU JOIN? Or if you were in why did you leave? If it's so wonderful on my side of the fence why didn't you walk into my paddock? Take responsibility for you life decisions and stop trying to feather you pocket and wallet at the expense of jobs for others.

Again, if you can just "raise" wages and raise ticket prices to pay for it with no financial loss why don't QF just raise the ticket prices and increase their profit?? Answer that one.

[Sunfish]

PAF, we all thought you might go into retirement with Little Johnny Howard, along with your pseudo-intellectual ramblings about market forces and economics.

There is a very old business principle involved in these matters called "where you stand is where you sit." Negotiations are just that - negotiations where each side basically tests its market power against its expectations. Assuming there is an overlap of best case/ worst case expectations you end up with a deal. If there is no overlap then no deal.

To make pronouncements, as you continually do, about who has a moral or economic claim to success is both irrelevant and misleading. It's like saying that India should win all cricket matches against Australia because Australia has a population of 20 million and India has a population of one billion (I won't argue the statistics of that because my argument is a little weak, but you will never pick why).

A negotiation is simply a contest. There is no logical reason that profits or wages should be any particular fixed share of revenue at all.

Here's a hint: Get rid of those self improvement books you seem to be reading and get a copy of "Getting to Yes" which is about negotiation.

On a further note, you didn't get a degree from ANU did you? If so, I'm ashamed.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Sunfish,

Unions drive up wages for their members at the cost of employment opportunities for others and at an overall loss to the economy.

Many around these parts seem to live in this fantasy land that you can drive up wages and have no effect what-so-ever on the level of employment.

The fact is that unionists are out to feather their own nest at the expense of others. I'd rather people would just admit it and say "Yes, I'm looking for the most money for me at the expense of jobs - but so what" rather than get all offended as if their prime motivator was the good of all. :D

You should only be ashamed if you were awarded a B.A. instead of a real degree :p

[stevie g]

Hi Prof,

I neither "believe" in capitalism, socialism, communism or polymorphism!

My point is that in our current society we have, and should use, our freedom of association because that's the way the system works AND in all avenues in life actors will come together to get outcomes in their best interest.

And that's what I am suggesting pilots (and any other group in life) should do. The sooner the greater pilot body realise they need to act TOGETHER the sooner the group as a whole will be better off ... for sure some will be worse of ... some better off ... it may cause airlines to grow more slowly because of scary higher salaries ... too bad ..... since when has growth been the only mantra.

Nuff of my little rage. ..... ps didn't mention anything about pilots working for free ...... ?????

Sorry for any thread drift guys but think some of this is relevant

[Capt Kremin]

Today's topic:

ADF pilots are paid less than half of airline pilot wages due to the control of supply by a monopoly employer, legislation which places severe restraint of trade on ADF pilots and; lack of access to effective collective bargaining.

Discuss.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

What I'd like to know Sunfish, is does PAF sit around reading PPRUNE during work hours at taxpayers expense? :confused:

[-438]

We've been hearing about the coming pilot shortage for years. It finally has arrived. We are now in demand.
Now is the time to sign off on a very very average deal.
When the wheel turns and we have a surplus of pilots, big business will feel sorry for us and thank us and give us a big increase.
That's how the world works.

[Nuthinondaclock]

PAF,

I think you better read my post again because at no point did I say anything about you living in a “protected paradise”. Those are your words not mine. I also never said I thought you were on great wages. (Seriously, how did you come to this conclusion, and a few others, from what I actually wrote?) I’m quite happy where I am and have no desire to join you in the ADF. Because you bought it up I’m also very happy with the life decisions I’ve made. What I did say is that the area of negotiation with Airline management and consultants such as Oldmeadow is one you have not been exposed to in much the same way as I have no idea about how the ADF’s infrastructure works. It’s not being critical of you saying this, you just haven’t experienced it yet where I have. My other point was that I disagree with your criticism of people using Unions to negotiate T & C’s with these people. I believe it would be foolish to not use the people who are qualified and experienced in these matters and to go it on your own would be at your peril. Study history and look at the conditions that existed post WW2 in airlines before pilots became unified.

Within reasonable terms I disagree with your statement that the number of jobs is dictated by the wage a pilot is paid. The market dictates the number of aircraft required and the airline has to crew them. I think you’re seriously overstating our influence if you think our wage affects how many aeroplanes an airline flies between two places. I haven’t seen any outrageous wage claims being made by anyone that would seriously even show on an airline’s bottom line. To answer your last question the price an airline asks for a ticket is certainly not dictated by a pilot’s wage. Airlines ask the highest price they think they can on any flight with a balance always being made between this and how many people will buy them. It seems like a bit of a black art to me but they have whole departments that deal with this ‘Yield Management’. At the end of the day airline management is trying to maximise its profits and managers are paid obscene bonuses to achieve this. Even when an airline is making record profits, like Qantas is, they will still try to reduce their staff wages as much as possible. That’s their job. The thing is most of us expect this (it really is an adversarial position between airlines and staff when it comes to T & C’s) and that’s why we choose to negotiate together as a group to achieve the best result for us all.

Back to the original subject of the thread I really hope the Group Opportunity List can eventuate in the Qantas Group soon to secure a future for ALL Qantas Group pilots. It can ONLY be a good thing and anyone saying otherwise is spreading misinformation. There’s always a few di%^heads in any group that will write stupid crap on forums. IGNORE THEM! They certainly don’t reflect the opinions of the greater majority of guys I fly with. Good luck to the Jetstar guys with their EBA vote. I hope you can at the least get the better terms and conditions you deserve but will be much happier if the offer is voted down and we can finally get a unified pilot group in this country. It can only be a good thing for ALL of us.

Nuthinondaclock.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Genex has disappeared out of the equation hasn't he? :E

[dodgybrothers]

Judging by his absence, I guess he/she anwered my question. He/she is JQ management.

[genex]

Sorry...was busy in the real world.

Couldn't manage my way out of a paper bag if that helps.

[speeeedy]

Couldn't manage my way out of a paper bag if that helps.

Well I guess that confirms that you are indeed management in the QF group.

[strobe12]

Somebody by that person a beer!!! Classic comment there speeeedy, luv ya work

[genex]

Speedy...it took me 15 seconds of typing and 50 minutes of waiting for you to show exactly how predictable....and wrong....you are. Like shooting fish in a barrel....but still fun.

[fender]

fish and bikes, fish and barrels....
Someones fishing for something.
Back on topic, When does Crayfish season start?


I wanna be a pilot when I grow up.

[ShockWave]

Have to agree with Nuth.... here.
PAF's argument is based on the overriding assumption that lower wages means more jobs.
Pilot wages at best are only a very minor factor and have little sway on the recruitment requirements of any airline or even the ADF.
If the ADF were to decrease the salaries of pilots would they employ more?
No, because they would still not be able to afford more aircraft, equipment, training, houses, fuel and staff to support them with the very small savings in salaries.
Airlines are no different.
Civilian airline crews have done all the hard yards themselves, whether it was working three shifts to pay for their licenses and qualifications or getting free training and doing their military service, placing their life on the line at half pay for the defense of their country.
Hopefully when/if you get here PAF you will realize that you are a professional, highly trained valuable resource who deserves to be well compensated for the services you are capable of providing.
Think a bit more about your own future before you attempt to shoot down those of us who are fighting to ensure that you and others have an opportunity to be rewarded adequately for your chosen profession.
Meanwhile, good luck and thanks for the job that you do. :ok:

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

What a pack of D!ckheads. Why oh why did I ever get out of Ag. What an embarrassment to all those who call themselves professional pilots many of the poster here are. Ridiculous.

Dougy.

[Gingerbread]

At last it is out there in public. To read more about how QANTAS bosses... plan to establish a two-tiered workforce that will see some full-time employees hired on less pay and lower conditions than existing staff, visit:

http://business.smh.com.au/qantas-plans-twotier-workforce/20080222-1u1g.html (http://business.smh.com.au/qantas-plans-twotier-workforce/20080222-1u1g.html)

To the innocent bystander, Jetstar management's decision to use AFAP and Jetstar to cut down to size Qantas pilots is just one ill conceived aspect of the plan.

If Jetstar pilots ever want to get a better contract and if Qantas pilots want to fly the 787 for other than on a Jetstar contract, there are going to have to get together.

While they are divided, management will continue to play both sides against the centre.

If I were a Jetstar pilot, I'd again vote down the current EBA and if I were a Qantas pilot I’d be making it clear to Dixon that unless the divide is filled in, Qantas pilots will Strike. :uhoh:

[AnQrKa]

Stevie G etc,

Using a simple conservative comparison, QF could save themselves at least 80million AUD per year by paying jetstar wages to mainline pilots.

Do you think this is not a question being posed by QF stakeholders "what does an extra 80 million dollars in pilot salaries buy us that jetstar pilots cant provide?"

With the coming downturn and high fuel prices, what business wouldnt be pushing for this change.

[fender]

GingerBread Man,
I am with you 100%.
QF pilots go on strike and show the J* boys and girls you mean business and you ain"t gonna take any crap from management.
Please, show them how it's done.

[stevie g]

AnQ

Your absolutely correct. In fact if QF paid mailine pilots half of what Jet* pay they'd could probably make a whole lot more. And they may find they are cancelling flights, like say, um Rex. No revenue (or profit) in that for shareholders.

Unfortunately for all concerned (ie both pilots and management) there are considerable legacy issues which don't just dissapppear from an employment relationship.

As for cost of fuel ..... every carrier has that .... no competitive advantage is lost ...... it's not an issue (for pilots) until people stop travelling.

The issue for pilots is how they make the most as a group out of todays circumstances .... and in the future .... when a supposed shortage of experienced pilots during a time of demand.

I would have thought that a smart aircraft operator would be trying to gain an ongoing cometitive advantage by locking in those employees who are the hardest to replace (pilots and engineers).

Just a thought

Steve

[Chimbu chuckles]

QF pilots go on stike 'to show J* pilots how it is done'?

Oh stop....your killing me.:rolleyes:

AIPA cannot bed down mainline EBAs in a timely manner...what 18 months and counting...do you honestly expect they can, or even want to, do better with J*?

Don't see them taking much interest in Jetconnect pilot's T&Cs...why is that?

[Keg]

AIPA cannot bed down mainline EBAs in a timely manner...what 18 months and counting...

Throwing a line like that out without providing the context is quite mischievous Chim Chuck. :=

The reason that EBA8 has dragged on so long lies solely at the feet of Qantas Airways. AIPA had an MoU that provided for time relief for our President and other personnel as required- this included the negotiators. QF chose to renege on that MoU- despite the fact that it had been previously negotiated into EBAs and QF agreed that it would be put into an MoU if the last EBA got up. So the EBA gets up- previous regime- and QF decide that they're not interested in the MoU anymore. Now we're faced with the reality of trying to coordinate three crew on two different fleets getting time off on the same dates that the company may choose to be (or not be sometimes) available. Previously these crew would be able to drop and/or rearrange trips to get the required dates but no more.

Further, I know for a fact that AIPA has in the past and continues today to take an interest in the Jetconnect deal. Unfortunately it's a foreign entity based in a foreign country and so my understanding is that there is little influence for us to have on that at the moment. However, lack of appearance of effort does not mean that lots isn't happening behind the scenes. That's CRM 103 isn't it? I would have expected you to know that one.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Good answer:ok:

18 mths is still a long time...if they cannot manage better for their own how can the J* pilots hope for better?

Don't get me wrong...I'd love to see all QF groups pilots on a single list/one union representative basis, as long as a sensible approach was used within the varying contexts of sundry group types/operations etc, rather than 70s style unionism.

There is just NO WAY that will happen in the real world. It is a childishly naive piece of wishful thinking.

In the meantime I view AIPA's actions surrounding J* generally, and EBA 4 particularly, in the same light as the CX guys instigating an international recruitment ban to support the 49ers (and loudly proclaiming on this BB that pilots should NOT accept employment with CX until it was resolved in favor of their 'collegues') while simultaneously accepting upgrade training that ensured their 'collegues' had nothing to come back to.

AIPA has about as much 'cred' as HKAOA has...fix that and you might have the beginnings of solidarity...oops here comes the real world again.:hmm:

[-438]

AnQrKa

With fuel prices at current levels you would think it would be prudent to positively engage the people in the position of controlling the burning of this expensive resource.

As a line driver on the 73 I quite often burn 300-500kg less than the minimum fuel burn as planned by QF on any one sector. This is more than often, in dollar terms a value greater than my wage on that particular sector.

I could also burn a months wage worth of extra fuel in just a few sectors if I was p*ssed off with how management were treating me.

[Nuthinondaclock]

CC,

I don’t quite understand how you can make any link between AIPA and its actions with regard to the Jet* EBA and the HKAOA and its handling of the ‘49er’s’. Why not chose some other emotional and unrelated historical event like say............. I dunno............... the UN and the genocide in Rwanda. They’re about as closely related.


“Don't get me wrong...I'd love to see all QF groups pilots on a single list/one union representative basis, as long as a sensible approach was used within the varying contexts of sundry group types/operations etc, rather than 70s style unionism.

There is just NO WAY that will happen in the real world. It is a childishly naive piece of wishful thinking.”

The strength of sentiments in the second of these two paragraphs leads me to think that you don’t really want what you mention in the first to happen at all. It kind of sounds like when people say, “I’m, not racist but, ........ (insert racist anecdote or story).”


From everything I’ve seen from AIPA with regards to a group list (and based on how the original Australian Airlines and Qantas seniority list were merged) the ideals you’ve expressed as desirable are exactly what they’re after. They do want it to be sensible and allow the sundry group types/operations to have control over their own destiny, but in a way that means we can’t be used divisively against each other. Surely you can see this division is what Qantas management is trying to achieve? (Fairly successfully in many cases) I certainly haven’t seen anything from AIPA that has any resemblance toward 70’s wharfy-style-unionism.

Nuf

[Chimbu chuckles]

Nuff,

Please outline for me the sequence of events required for the sort of solidarity espoused here to become reality.

The analogy is close enough for me.

One group of pilots want another group of pilots to fight 'their' battle for them by, in this case, voting down an EBA and foregoing a substantial pay rise in order to allow, in this case, AIPA, to attempt to get them a better deal at some point in the future.

There is zero risk attached to this for AIPA pilots/Com.

All the risk is being born by the J* pilots.

As was the case when the CX pilots were insisting that pilots not accept employment at CX until the 49ers were reinstated...while accepting upgrade training.

Zero risk for CX pilots but a massive career risk for anyone not yet flying for CX, or any airline, and whom had set their career goal in that company. They actually suggested people who knocked back job offers or interviews would have another opportunity when the 49er issue was resolved...in what universe?

Just how good a deal (as in how much extra on TOP of EBA 4) would AIPA have to get for J* pilots to recover what they will lose in the next 12 months if this is voted down...again?

Can AIPA do it?

Not in this universe. Remember no one from AIPA is suggesting the numbers attached to this EBA are not good numbers...in fact the opposite if rumours are to be believed.

You, and others, clearly don't like what I have to say on this subject...prove to me I am wrong and that your reality is the correct one.

Mainline pilots, and others, who post in this place are long on rhetoric about bringing J* T&Cs up to some level they deem appropriate. Many suggest nothing short of pay parity with QF Domestic is acceptable.

I have yet to hear anyone outline the nuts and bolts of forcing QF/J* management to accept that outcome.

Perhaps you would like to start the ball rolling?

[Parc-Ratstej]

CC-generally speaking,the longer an eba is protracted,the better the results for the individual.The success of the result lies in the terms and conditions obtained for the workers for the next eba cycle.Not the length of the negotiating period!

[genex]

PARC....your name says it all. That's your attitude and you're not going to change. Hardly surprising your management are such hard liners too. You are a joke.

[Keith Myath]

1) EBA 4 gets voted down.

2) Jetstar pilots get better organised, sort out union representation.

3) Pilot body elucidate what is needed to have a successful vote.

4) Submit a log of claims to company.

5) Begin negotiations.

6) After current EBA expires, pilot body remains cohesive and takes all necessary steps to take protected industrial action if required.

7) Pilots use the threat of PIA to counteract the BS, half-truths and fear campaign that will be mounted by the HR department.

8) Company and pilots return to the negotiating table to negotiate in “good faith”

OR

8a) or a complete s**t fight breaks out, company refuses to move on the 3% and other key claims, pilots throw the schedule into chaos with refusal to extend duty, taking the full 2 hours to report for duty on avail days, refusal to work on days off, turning up to work on time – not early, instrument approaches at every opportunity, inability to accept track shortening etc etc etc.

8b) Escalate to stop work meetings.

8c) Virgin and Tiger’s load factors shoot up past 90%.

8d) Someone blinks……. pilots or HR??

Without the threat of industrial action, negotiation will always be one sided.

Now, return from the parallel universe where the pilots stick together to achieve the legitimate threat of PIA, to the current universe where a fair proportion of the Yes voters will take AWA’s if this is voted down again, and tell me how negotiations will go come expiry of the current EBA.

In case some of you people don’t get it WE HAVE ALREADY BLINKED.

CC - have I missed any steps?


$100 says this EBA gets up.

[Parc-Ratstej]

genex-correct!That is my attitude,however I am open to change,are you?You know nothing of my management.I guess the truth strikes sensitive nerves.

PS.Why am I a joke?I certainly hope its not because I have a different opinion to yourself??

[Nuthinondaclock]

CC,

Still not with you on the CX ‘49er’s’ analogy though I see where you’re going with the ‘who’s-taking-the-risk’ bit. I guess where I see this one as quite different is that in their case it was something that was internal to the CX guys rising out of a very nasty dispute. No one is at that point here (yet), and in some ways hopefully some unity might prevent that. I’d prefer to debate the situation here on its own merits.

I don’t feel that Mainline pilots do want you to fight “their” battle for them. IT’s all of our battle and it’s much bigger than that. The problem they see is that Jet* guys accepting this EBA WILL result in a reduction in mainline T & C’s particularly as this is happening simultaneously with negotiations for the L/H EBA. Yes, to an extent that is looking after themselves but all groups will have very big gains if a group list eventuates. From what I’ve read AIPA isn’t trying to get Jet* T & C’s the same as Mainline’s and is quite accepting that LCC terms will be less than Mainline. Jet* will always have a competitive edge in the leisure market and this will most likely see the continued expansion of them in the short to medium term and the resultant promotional opportunities for their pilots. AIPA is not trying to stop this. What’s on offer for Jet* guys as a gain, is that their career choices then include mainline types and their T & C’s. It also give some protections and other opportunities for when Jet*s fleet expansion stops, as it will someday, or if there is a decrease in the leisure market or even just to handle the cyclical nature of this industry. That cuts both ways for Mainline pilots and must also include the regional pilots to be effective in the longer term.

The bigger issue with an acceptance of the Jet* EBA is not so much the T & C’s but that it effectively prevents unified representation. Easy for me to say but the only risk a Jet* pilot has in voting “no” is a short term pay gain (Made at the expense of any new hires) which wouldn’t take much at all to recoup in both monetary and conditions in the medium term. Usually this is recovered in back pay to an EBA date though I guess this wouldn’t apply as your current EBA hasn’t expired. Surely you’d have to ask yourself why they’re offering this carrot? Cause they’re a nice bunch of guys and they want to share the love? Not likely. Surely you can see that they are trying to divide us as pilot group. Heck even if you’re not sure vote “No” and see what AIPA’s got to offer at the road shows they’re running. Even if you decide not to go that way recent history (Virgin, QF S/H, and even this second offer) would suggest you’ll get another better deal on your table. Surely buying watches and dodgy DVD’s in Asia has taught you this?

As for the nuts and bolts; I’m a line pilot and hold no position in AIPA so I don’t know the final details but here goes. The first big step was obtaining the legal right to represent the Jet* and Regional Pilots. This legal right has been achieved after a court case and then successfully defended on appeal. I wasn’t involved but it no doubt took a lot of effort and expense. A next step is for Jet* pilots to join. The road shows AIPA is running are to inform you of the gains that would result from membership. Best to get to one and get it first hand and develop your own opinion. To get QF and Jet* management to accept a group list would no doubt require a lot of work and require convincing them it makes economic sense. The obvious one is stopping the bleeding of the Regionals with their massive exodus of pilots and I’m sure there will be much in the L/H EBA as it’s been stated that ‘everything’ is on the table. I’m sure the people working on this have a strategy but for obvious reasons don’t post it on forums. A good question to ask at a road show perhaps?

Maybe I’m still being childishly naive but if we don’t get some unity we’ll all suffer. You might get a sign on bonus and a few extra bucks now but the next thing you know Jet* will be giving your promotions to another cheaper bunch of pilots, or foreigners bought in under 457 visas or to foreign pilots flying under contract for an offshore company (Vietnam's Pacific Airlines perhaps?). Please don’t be rushed.


Nuff

[Chimbu chuckles]

No Keith, that about covers it...particularly 8a.

Chances of unified PIA?

Not very good I would suggest. Remember J* is made up of pilots from both sides of 89..and most of the lower half of the juniority list is too young to remember 89, except as the year they were finally potty trained.

The chances of AIPA supported industrial action..as in "all out brothers"?

Didn't happen in 1989.

Remember for all the fine rhetoric from a few well intentioned QF pilots who post here AIPA and most QF pilots really do believe that J* will be the death of mainline T&Cs. I personally think that is overstating the case.

Take a look at what is happening in BA. BA pilots have just voted for strike action to stop BA's version of J* (Open Skies:rolleyes: )

Perhaps BA have learned from QF how the Loco model can work without undercutting mainline after they fecked it up last time with Go...so they are having another bite of the cherry?

BA pilots are not prodding anyone from behind to go out and fight their battle for them...more power to their arm. Right or wrong they appear to have the strength of their convictions.

AIPA had their opportunity years ago to do as their BA counterparts are now doing but did not have the bottle. So yes Keith, in one sense, 'we' have blinked already...well AIPA did.

Now is the time for a supportive tone for what JPC has achieved. Remember Woods has not suggested there is anything wrong with EBA 4...this whole ****fight is not about EBA 4, rather who wrote EBA 4.

[genex]

Chimbu is right. Where's AIPA on Keith's list?

What about this list:

1) AIPA launches an immediate "Shock and Awe" campaign which shuts down mainline to ensure that all the less powerful QF group drivers are protected once and for all.

I'd buy tickets to watch that.

[Keg]

Yes genex, it'd be the shortest campaign in history due to it being illegal for drivers to strike under the current Australian IR laws. AIPA would be liable for damages to QF as well. :rolleyes:

Another point worth pointing out is that QF drivers have made it very clear to AIPA that if 787 crewing isn't included in EBA8 then it faces a torrid time of being voted up. No matter how good the pay rise I'm not signing on to a deal that doesn't give access to 787 flying when in red and white and thus has us all out of a job by about mid-late next decade. How far we need/have to go is yet to be determined.

[fender]

Agree Chimba and Genex,

Come on mainline pilots, come out and show your teeth and help us achieve what YOU want.

[freddyKrueger]

Chimbu, lets come at this from a different angle.
Pertinent facts.
* Rudd government elected on platform of IR reform Nov 07.
* IR Transition bill mooted to be passed by Easter 08. Reforms include union involvement in negotiations with >50% workplace agreement & "Good Faith" bargaining.
* AIPA gains coverage of all Qantas Group pilots late Dec 07 in AIRC.
* Liberal opposition proposes blocking passage of the IR transition bill. Likely to be stalled until at least July 08. Horse trading with independents to ensure passage likely or double dissolution election.
* J* pilots vote on EBA4 some 8 months prior to expiry end January 08.
* Liberal opposition announces passage of Rudd transition bill by Easter, Feb 08.

Given the above facts, a plausible scenario could include an early EBA4 vote as a contingency by J* management to exclude AIPA for 5 years. If the EBA4 deal is as sweet as some contend, why is it so? Why lock the company in for 5 years if things are going to tank? Why the rush?
Is it possible that J* management are buying a non-union collective agreement while they can? Ryanair are fiercely non-union, & I would hypothesise that the current J* CEO, ex-Ryanair holds similar views.
Further, is it possible the deal was improved BECAUSE of the looming 'AIPA threat'? If the AIRC decision went against AIPA to gain Qantas Group coverage do you think the offer would be as good as the one on offer? That right, the presence of AIPA in the wings may have already benefited the J* pilots.

Yes AIPA may not have been able to negotiate more money out of J*, but should the majority of J* pilots wish to utilise its services as a bargaining agent, under new legislation AIPA will have a seat at the table on their behalf. AIPA may have been able to negotiate other lifestyle & career conditions, which to many are just as important as money. Some issues that are likely to cause discontent include: out of seniority training, DEC's, hotel accommodation, base transfers, rostering & the group opportunity list. Are any of these addressed in the current EBA4?

If AIPA does negotiate on behalf of the J* pilots, it would be a respondent to the EBA, and can therefore protect EBA conditions on behalf of its members.

The current J* CEO is on record as saying that he intends to get 5 to 7 years out of his pilots before they are burnt out. Offering more money now to get a non-union collective agreement may allow him to get his wish, in effect saving him more money in lifestyle, training & rostering issues over the lifetime of the agreement.

Viewed through this prism, is it possible that this is a final attempt by J* management to exclude unions from their workforce before the window-of-opportunity shuts in less than a month with the likely passage of the IR transition legislation?
I would posit that those pilots putting themselves forward to sign AWA's based on EBA4 have no desire for the 'lifestyle' or career issues, they simply want the bucks or to ingratiate themselves with management. Just like the complaints about the old AIPA being the B747 Captains club, for exactly the same reasons.

[Condition lever]

Hi Freddy,

The current J* CEO is on record as saying that he intends to get 5 to 7 years out of his pilots before they are burnt out.

Am dying to get a hold of this - could you direct me to where this is stated please.

Cheers

[genex]

keg,

One imagines that given the size of the order, there will be plenty of opportunities for current QF drivers, if they are suitably qualified and experienced, to fly the 787, whatever form of rodent or logo adorns the tail. And their terms and conditions would no doubt be appropriate to the "market forces" prevailing at the time they made their individual or collective choices regarding their chosen fleet.

As its stands though, asking the Jetstar pilots to ensure and boilerplate the process of getting mainline drivers seamlessly and happily onto the 787 at current Qantas pay rates is a bit steep. There's some heavy lifting to do if you think this could or should be done and I'd be guessing not a few people reckon AIPA should step up to the plate themselves.

[freddyKrueger]

Condition lever, this Pprune (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=230445) thread covers it.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Freddy K is spot on. As he says, WHY are they offering this deal and wanting to push it through so quickly?

I too distinctly remember Joyce saying he was happy to get 5 years out of a pilot. (Thought it was in an interview in ‘The Australian’ when Jet* first got the big nod and announced the A320s, sorry I can’t be more specific, Condition Lever) One of the big improvements needed to prevent the above, from what I’ve seen, is making your conditions sustainable for a long term career. (Particularly for the Jet*I pilots). Mates of mine in there seem to forever be arriving home off a trip and departing again the next day, often to repeat the process on the next return home. With the 3 day a week frequency to many of the current, or future developing, leisure ports it's impossible to achieve the high density of hours that can be achieved in short haul ops. The same holds true in QF. Having Minimum Base Turnaround entitlements is certainly one of the things I greatly appreciate under the L/H award having spent some years operating without this.


CC,

My response to your last posting is on the previous page due to the delaying process of moderator approval.



From the AIPA President (on an open section of Qrewroom so I hope it’s not breaching any protocols to post here?)


“IMHO, should EBA 8 (QF L/H-my note) not also guarantee job security and career progress for Qantas Group pilots, AIPA members will be left with no alternative other than to follow the path already trod by Iberian pilots and soon to be trodden by our BA colleagues?”

Only words at this stage I know, but I think now that Qantas managements plans' have been unveiled a willingness to ‘up the ante’ has been expressed.


“I certainly don’t wish to be remembered as the AIPA President that led the only Qantas strike since 1966.”

I don’t think anyone wants the angst of a strike but I believe there is the resolve to take protected industrial action if required. I guess the point I'm trying to make is I don't think Qantas Mainline pilots are sitting back wanting Jet* pilots to fight their battle for them. You're certainly not being asked to take industrial action by anyone, just to take some time to consider the long term implications of accepting this deal. Please have a look at what AIPA has on offer for you. Get to a roadshow or give them a call then make your own decision.


Nuf.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Genex,

If it goes your way it won't be fair market forces that will determine T & C's for Mainline pilots on the 787, it will be whatever QF/Jet* Management wants. It needn't be that way and why would anyone want it to be? Why do you want it to be? :confused:

Nuf

[dirty deeds]

This is turning out like 89 without the fan fair. Some want AWA's others want to go into bat and the overseas contractor will enter the country on a special VISA. Either way, your all SCR#$D. No unity, no balls, no dice!

Hope it gets voted in, gives way to selfish behavour, VB boys can't wait for the DEC on the 787, read a boeing publication the other day, anyone heard of Boeing STAR courses?

This will get voted in, no problems. Can't wait to see the result. Good luck everyone, either way it goes if you don't get united its all over. The result will just be academic.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Geez Dirty Deeds, you're kind of all over the shop on that one. :ooh:
Thanks for your support.

Nuf.

[dirty deeds]

Nuf,

Just trying to prove a point, if you don't get united, it opens the door for overseas VISA contenders and outside on-lookers. Simple from where I am looking, yet I suppose all I am is a simple pilot!:)

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

The irony here is that when it was just the 717 operation there was little or no interest shown by QF "brothers" as to our future. Now our getting together is the main priority. I was at the initial meeting when Impulse was taken over by Qantas. I distinctly remember a certain Mr manning stating in no uncertain terms that Qantas pilots had no interest in the plight of Impulse guys. I also remember Mr Woods stating on his election that his and AIPAs priority was to halt the growth of Jetstar.

So what has changed. The 787 maybe?. If I was a QF pilot Id be mighty pi$$ed off with AIPA currently. I guess if you make your own bed you have to be prepared to sleep in the ba$tard thing!!!

DM

[Keg]

I distinctly remember a certain Mr manning stating in no uncertain terms that Qantas pilots had no interest in the plight of Impulse guys.

He was wrong. I know of many pilots- myself included- who made direct representations to Chris to get not only the Impulse pilots but the QFlink pilots as part of the one association also.

I also remember Mr Woods stating on his election that his and AIPAs priority was to halt the growth of Jetstar.

This is so out of context that it defies belief. I'm not going to bother responding Douglas because it's all been explained before. If you weren't willing to pay attention before then I'm not going to bother wasting my time going over the same territory again.

By the way, I hunted back through my emails the other day that I sent to AIPA around the time- had to go to the garage to get out the old computer. On one of them is a report that the IPC knocked back an offer from AIPA to provide assistance with an eye to looking at representation down the track. That changes the scenario in a big way.

What I find delusional in all of this is that we've stopped mid race and had a look back at the start and we're cursing and moaning about all the mistakes that have lead up to this point. We're also so hacked off by those mistakes that we've decided that rather than run smart and clean for the rest of the race we're going to continue to run with one hand tied behind our back. Whatever happened to learning from the past and then fixing it in the future. '89 showed what happens when people aren't united. Alas we're destined to repeat the same mistakes again except this time it's because we're mired in events of six years ago! :ugh:

[dodgybrothers]

For once I agree with Keg. There are a few facts that need to be stated about the current situation, although I am sure they will be disputed by the few who go running to AJ everytime something does not fall their way.

I am a long serving AFAP member as well as a Jetstar Pilot.

Fact 1. Jetstar saw the pilot shortage looming and decided to engage the JPC or JPA or whatever they are this week, in negotiations to tie up a new EBA without costing them the earth, ie like it would when this current one expires. Call them what you want, they're not stupid.

Fact 2. They stopped negotiations when they advertised for expressions of interest from 777 guys, and I stress 'expressions of interest' becasue thats all they were, not firm commitments, when they saw how many 'expressions' they received and thought 'what pilot shortage' and stopped talking.

Fact 3. They were coaxed back to the table when the oppportunity to hand out a cr@p deal presented, hey who looks a gift horse in the mouth?

Fact 4. The AFAP, after the issuing of this first deal, publicly stated that all jetstar pilots should vote no because first and foremostly, a 5 year deal in the currently economic climate was unacceptable. Now they have changed their tune due to them getting their monogram on the deal before AIPA did.

Fact 5. The deal got voted down, 'marginally' as we keep being told, but none the less, voted down. The majority spoke. But 1 or 2 guys were not happy with this so a coup was organised and only a few people went to the company asking to be put on AWAs. Well, let them have it. This figure was muted to be only 25 people not the 100 being bandied around.

Fact 6. Employees who were employed on AWAs were not eligible to vote on the first EBA, but miracously on this vote they can. So who in their right mind would stay on an AWA when they have the chance to vote up an EBA and be rid of those evil contracts?

Many aspects of this deal are smoke and mirrors, for 145k and the chance to earn some extra if the moon aligns with venus in the 4th quarter, is not acceptable. We are selling out every new hire that comes along on B scale for the first year, based on the premise that all FOs will have commands real soon. Well let me tell you guys that this will not happen. The deal allows for the hiring of DECs for ever and a day and when the commands slow, then all you will be left is a cr@p deal with 200 blokes behind you on seniority with commands.

I urge everyone who is eligble to vote on this to think hard and ask yourself, is this the best deal we can get? The answer everytime will be no.

I was never a big fan of AIPA or their motivation, but I am starting to think that the only organistion that has a set of knackers big enough to help our cause, is AIPA.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Nicely written Keg and Dodgybrothers,

I particularly like Keg’s mid race analogy. So what’s it going to be people?

From a representation point of view I think we’ve got 5 choices (discounting none and signing off immediately on an AWA. (The following is certainly not intended to be taken as slandering any particular Union/Association, or the people that work on their behalf, but it just a pragmatic appraisal of our current situation as pilots in Australia.)


1. JPC – Probably effective in the early days of Impulse but with the exception of a few with questionable impartiality/conflict of interest, seems to be acknowledged as very pro-management with its leaning. It would seem a lot of Jet* pilots are less than happy with them and I think their usefulness from a Jet* pilots’ point of view has probably expired. Also doesn’t solve the problem of unified representation of Australian Pilots.



2. AFAP – Sorry guys but you lost a fair bit of credibility when you back flipped on this EBA just to get your name on the letterhead. The other downside of AFAP representation is that it still doesn’t solve the problem of unified representation of Australian Pilots. The reality is that 2400+ Qantas Mainline pilots are not about to join the AFAP as they don’t have the legal right of representation, they’re not presently capable and they have no interest or intention of becoming so.


3. AIPA – Whatever you may think about its past relationship (or lack thereof) with Jet* pilots and QF Regional pilots this is the only organisation that has any real capability to represent us all. We are at a critical point in time now. They are the ONLY organisation that can legally represent us all. Get it from the horse’s mouth by a phone call or attending a road show but these guys will be representing YOU. The various sub-organisations i.e. Jet* Pilots, Qantaslink..... would run their own show within the umbrella in the same way as S/H and L/H run separately. When it comes to an EBA vote ultimately it’s only those covered by it that vote. L/H pilots don’t get to vote on a S/H EBA and vice versa. L/H pilots aren’t usually even at the table for the S/H negotiations (Unless someone with a particular industrial area of expertise is requested to be present) with the company. AIPA certainly isn’t perfect (Is any organisation?) but I do think they’re the best choice available.



4. The Australian Pilots Union (Insert title of choice) – A totally new organisation. Reality. By the time it’s setup, has the infrastructure and the legal right of representation the horse will have well and truly bolted, been tracked and caught, sold, slaughtered and be adorning and old-school tennis racquet.


5. Status Quo – Remain divided and in the exactly the position every Airline management/Oldmeadow-type negotiator wants.


Regards,
Nuf.

[Condition lever]

Freddy,

Ahhh... the "my mother's hairdresser's best friend" heard it scenario.
Can anyone actually provide some factual reference to this "burn out" allegation?

[Captain Sherm]

Some more thinking points that occur to this weary observer of the dogfight whose own wings are now folded but who wishes all pilots well and hopes all airlines will grow rapidly:

Keg has pointed out that legally AIPA’s mainline pilots can do nothing industrially to help their Poor Cousins in Qantas Link and Jetstar.
Some on this thread suggest that there is arguably some doubt as to whether AIPA as a whole actually wants to help its Poor Cousins
If the Poor Cousins do join AIPA they would be responsible for their own terms and conditions anyway, as distinctly separate as S/H and L/H are within QF nowSo……… AIPA wants to help Poor Cousins to solve problems that it can’t solve itself because it is industrially neutered, wishes Jetstar would go away, wants all the 787 flying, has no scope clause and can't even arrange for time off for its own negotiators.

And these are the foundations underpinning the negotiating “expertise” that would in effect be the sole reason why Jetstar pilots should join AIPA? What else do they offer? If AIPA had strength (in negotiating skills or industrial tactics) then wouldn’t it negotiate a better deal all round for the Poor Cousins anyway? Today. Why haven’t they done that up until now? Are they withholding their negotiating skills til they get their hands on the membership fees of the Poor Cousins?

In closing I also note that someone pointed out that JPA is “too close” to management. Has any JPA President yet crossed the fence to become Chief Pilot a la the traditional Qantas career path...?

[Nuthinondaclock]

Nope, but it doesn't mean it wasn't said. One thing Joyce and his IR team are not, is stupid.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Captain Sherm,

Whilst AIPA has the legal right to represent Jet* guys they can’t negotiate for them unless the Jet* guys want their representation. They can’t just storm an EBA negotiation uninvited and force anyone to deal with them.

If the Poor Cousins do join AIPA they would be responsible for their own terms and conditions anyway, as distinctly separate as S/H and L/H are within QF now.

You’ve taken this the wrong way I’m afraid and maybe I should have been clearer. The Jet* pilots will be their own master in voting and determining what they want. The point here is no Mainline S/H or L/H guy can force them to accept something that is detrimental to their existance. When it comes to a Jet* EBA it will ONLY be Jet* pilots who can vote. What they gain is the resources of a bigger association (Legal, industrial, administrative….) and the unity that prevents one group being played against another ( And when a group list eventuates a whole bigger field of career opportunities).



So……… AIPA wants to help Poor Cousins to solve problems that it can’t solve itself because it is industrially neutered, wishes Jetstar would go away, wants all the 787 flying, has no scope clause and can't even arrange for time off for its own negotiators.Regards not being able to negotiate time off for negotiators see Kegs post #169 back 1 page. As far as a scope clause, when’s the last time you saw one of these agreed to by any company. They just don’t happen anymore as companies will not impose arbitrary limits on themselves. Whilst AIPA probably would prefer Jet* didn’t exist it does and they are trying to change the situation to the pilots’ benefit. They are not trying to get all the 787 flying and have openly stated that they can’t dictate in which of the 2 brands Qantas allocates the 787s.

While we’re separate groups that can be used against each other our industrial strength is limited. THESE GUYS ARE PLAYING HARDBALL AND THEY’RE NOT STUPID.


Nuf.

[speeeedy]

can't even arrange for time off for its own negotiators.

This is a key point.

What happened is that a very clear agreement was made to move this clause outside the CA to an MOU, there is no doubt about the agreement, only that Dixon will not sign the MOU. In other words he has gone back on his word.

Apparently it is an open and shut case, with very clear evidence, but as is the way with the legal system the large organisation can draw it out for as long as it wants.

But AIPA are fighting it, and will win it (or more likely Qantas will settle at the last moment after stringing it out for ages) and it will cost a lot, but they can do it.

My question then is this... What happens on the inevitable day that management welshes on a deal with the JPA/C? Are they in a position to fight the might of a large organisation that will use the legal system to their full advantage? That is just one of the major strengths (amongst many other) of a united group.

Will they welsh on a deal?

I don't have the time to tell you how many deals they have welshed on with Mainline pilots so far, but eventually we woke up and kicked out the old AIPA regime that never stood up to these guys.

Once and for all, don't use the failings of the old AIPA as a reason for not joining. We woke up! They've gone, what more can we do?

And for the record, CM told the IPC to P!$$ off on his own, most on CoM where lead to believe that the IPC had told AIPA to P!$$ off, it was only years later that the truth really came out, and QF mainline pilots and AIPA Committee members were not happy! There is a reason that people leave the room when he enters, you know.

Most AIPA members thought it was entirely logical for the Impulse guys to come in on a Y just like Short Haul, the future CP obviously didn't see it that way.... I wonder why?

[Led Zeppelin]

As a JQ driver I am VERY suspicious of AIPA and the motives for wanting to cover Jetstar pilots. Nothing Ian Woods and others have said has changed this suspicion.

EVERYONE should understand that AIPA is only out for themselves - they are desperate to take advantage of a largely disparate group that the JQ pilot group currently seems to be.

Don't be fooled - AIPA wants absolute control over who flys Qantas group aircraft. I am sure all JQ drivers will find this unacceptale.

Jetstar aircraft as allocated from the Qantas group must be flown by Jetstar pilots, no matter what the number or type.

As far as this current JQ EBA vote goes, it's disappointing that the now weak and ineffectual AFAP has been included as a respondent. Unless it is voted down (unlikely), we have effectively been handed a fait accompli. :ugh:

With 500+ pilots by years end, surely we could form our own association and then look after our own interests without interference from anyone.

Rant over.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Led Zep,


You guys do have your own Association, the JPA, but the problem is still one of unity to prevent one group of pilots being played off against another. That’s as an aside to the time taken to actually set a new association up and have it recognised. It will be too late for EBA 4. So if you want a chance of something better why not see what AIPA can offer. If you don’t like what you see then don’t continue down that path. Just don’t write them off as an option until you’ve heard what they’ve got to say. When you say, “Nothing Ian Woods and others have said has changed this suspicion.” Have you actually heard from him or are you basing this on what others (JPA) are saying to further their agenda (Short term financial gain at others expense). (If you have then good for you, I’m sorry if you’re still suspicious, AIPA needs to try harder in your case.)


I see as recently as December ’06 you were with EK so I’m guessing (excuse my presumption if I’m wrong) that you’re right seating with Jet*? If you’re worried about some Mainline guy getting your command then relax. In the same way when Australian Airlines and QF pilots merged, NO QF pilot would be able to take a command slot in front of ANY current JQ pilot. The same applies the other way.


"EVERYONE should understand that AIPA is only out for themselves."


AIPA is not some mythical beast. It is a group of people working together to better their lot as professional pilots. They want YOU to be part of it for your own benefit, and that of the group as a whole.

Nuf.

[Led Zeppelin]

Nuf:-

Looking at how the "merger" aka "takeover" of Australian Airlines by QF, the seniority was so biased in favour of QF (AIPA) - how the "Y" list could ever be seen as advantaging anyone but the QF group is just not realistic. TN guys were shafted.

"....If you’re worried about some Mainline guy getting your command then relax..."

And I suppose the cheque's in the mail too - You are bloody right, a lot of us are worried if AIPA ever managed to get a toehold in JQ.:mad:

As far as hearing from Ian Woods or AIPA propoganda, yes - read his comments and listened to him personally. He is only trying to keep as much of what's left of QF as he can for his members only. If he thinks he can stand up and deliver such condescending statements about how much of the 787 (and by implication future fleet) flying JQ pilots will be allowed to do, he and the AIPA COM need to think again.

As I said above, it's time for Jetstar pilots to think as a united single group away from AFAP and AIPA. We would have a membership of over 1000 pilots by 2012 IF we got together now.

Yes - I was with EK.

[Crusty Demon]

So what is the answer Led Zep? Have 2 groups bidding for flying by trying to undercut each other? That is what QF management wants. By segmenting the business, the CEO if I remember right has stated he wants various groups to compete aggressively for capital allocation amongst the group.

For me personally, if they want to undercut, they can have it. I am at the stage in life I would rather stay an F/O (should have stayed an S/O to be honest but that is another story) than go for a command on crap conditions.

From what I understand, the ultimate goal of AIPA is to have a common group seniority list. While it may cost me some, and have some Jetstar people in front of me in the future, I am not worried if short term pain leads to long term gain in the next 30 years or so.

Until everybody in this country unites, no matter how painful the process is, the competition among ourselves will lead to much more pain through the course of most of our careers.

Spend a little now to save a lot in the future. We are not managers whose bonus depends on this years income, we are people in this for the long haul who want a sustainable future. The energy spent competing against each other could be better directed fighting management.

As one group, imagine the extra power we would hold over the company if we both had an open EBA, both were after the same goals, and were both prepared to take action to the next level to achieve it?

If people only want to think of the next 12 months and not the rest of their careers however, then leave things as they are.

[max autobrakes]

Led,
You are pulling your pud too hard mate.
Having been a part of the TN/QF merger ,I'll let you in on a little secret,
TN guys got their commands on their aircraft way before any boogyman Qantas pilot of a similar seniority did,and so they should!

This much maligned Y seniority list you harp on about ,may not have been perfect , however I believe it probably was one of the smoothest meldings of seniority between two pilot groups, period.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Thanks Max Autobrakes,
You saved me some typing. Led Zep, I too was part of the Y merge. Not only did the TN guys get commands on their aircraft before QF guys did of the same start dates in QF (I too agree with Max, as they rightly should) they are also flying L/H on the A330 and a few are even going on to the A380. (Every single TN guy could also be a Captain on the 767 as well.) Not really a shafting in my book. The good bit now is there are now a lot more career path choices available for everyone.

The same would happen with a Jet*/QF Y. Take someone who joined QF post Dec ’06 which I believe would be the earliest you could have joined Jet* after leaving EK. You WILL have a command before the QF guy would most likely have ANY window seat. And if the merge wasn’t going to go that way it’s simple...........DON’T SIGN OFF ON IT!

As for starting your own association it will be too late by then and won’t help solve the problems with your EBA 4. It also still does nothing in the way of protecting your long term career though any form of unity with other pilots in Australia.

Nuf.

[genex]

I am missing something. Thus far I have not seen any admission by AIPA's fleet of spokespersons that there is anything in this for AIPA Mainline pilots at all!


Jetstar pilots will get even faster promotion (is that possible?)
QF drivers will have to wait
AIPA will provide "expertise"
AIPA leaders love and respect Jetstar and its pilots
AIPA has no designs on the 787sBeats me why they'd bother then. Unless its for the sheer joy of doing a "good" turn for Jetstar pilots. Or do they have another agenda waiting in the shadows relating to assimilation and the eventual demise of JQ with a subsequent loss of jobs overall and great harm to the Groups competitive position and capability. But the Jetstar pilots, as they fall on their swords, will have done their duty....and preserved the pay and conditions of the 744 drivers.

Just a thought

[I'm Driving]

Hey genex. Who shot JFK?

[genex]

Doesn't really matter does it. He's dead whoever did it. Thats the point.

[speeeedy]

genex,

I know you're management but I'll answer anyway for others to read.

It is pretty simple, what mainline pilots want is mainline flying. Simple really.

As Led Zep said:

Jetstar aircraft as allocated from the Qantas group must be flown by Jetstar pilots, no matter what the number or type.

I agree :D :D

All we want is the same for Qantas aircraft. OK! Got it?

A GOAL means that eventually (and it is LONG TERM THINKING) people will get to pick and choose where they go, but in the short term the existing pilots just get what they would have got anyway, but without having to undercut and compete with anyone to get it.

There are some in the J* ranks who want to undercut us to fly the A380 for QF. The same people, no doubt, who think it is OK to undercut Led Zep and his mates by offering to work on an AWA with the recent EBA4 conditions as rejected by the rest of the J* Pilots.

There are some in our ranks who want to nuke the j* guys by offering massive savings spread over all the QF fleets (which would in reality only be a small offset given the size of our fleets) to get ALL 787's and ALL future widebody aircraft.

I think both these MINORITIES are crazy. If we unite we don't need to screw each other. Got it?

[Condition lever]

Speeeedy,

Agree with you 100%.
A GOAL will be a fantastic thing if it can be organised.
J* and mainline pilots will still attain their commands in their respective fleets at the same point as they would have without it - with the prospect at some point down track to switch fleets if they desire.
What you have to do is explain this to the clowns on Qrewroom (see the Jetstar EBA thread) who obviously dont understand the dynamics.

Unfortunately the way I see this thing going is that EBA2008 (ala EBA4) will be voted up - irrevocably tying us in with the AFAP who have sold us down the river to get their names in the EBA document and thus gain the membership.

['holic]

Genex,

You might be right. It might be a sinister plot by AIPA to wipe Jetstar pilots from the face of the earth.

Then again you might be wrong. AIPA might just be trying to reduce the downward pressure on mainline T&Cs by improving Jetstars, as has been stated repeatedly on this forum. Not to mention providing more future opportunities for both mainline AND Jetstar pilots.

So what is the best thing to do?

A) Stick your head in the sand and hope AIPA go away.

B) Listen to what AIPA have to say, take advantage of their resources and make an informed decision based on this - not a bunch of wild rumours posted on an anonymous forum. After all, if you don't like what they have to say, you can STILL choose to go your own way :hmm:

[Alien Sex God]

Genex has got me very confused. He doesn't have anything positive to say about AIPA and comes out with a whole lot of claims without any evidence but the Qantas blokes provide evidence disputing Genex and showing that he is wrong. I don't know why he keeps on going on like he does. He always seems to embarress himself.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Speedy,

Spot on.


Condition Lever,

Don’t put too much weight in the extreme views of a small handful of guys on Qrewroom. As a Mainline pilot I cringe at their comments and find them an embarrassment. You hit the nail on the head labelling them clowns. There’s extremists in any discussion and their opinions do not reflect the majority. The worst thing would be for us to not work together on this because of them. I found it interesting that their stupid rants were so quickly countered by the AIPA President.


Genex,

First you say there’s nothing in it for Jet* guys and then when the gains are pointed out you try and turn that around and say there’s nothing in it for AIPA, so it must be a conspiracy with some shadowy agenda. To have this very ability and use it so frequently is confirmation of your position in management. Everything you’ve argued for is contrary to the long term career and lifestyle of all Qantas Group pilots’. I repeat my question from some time back, why do you want it to be this way? I suspect that it’s pretty obvious who has the shadowy agenda.

Nuf.

[I'm Driving]

Sex God.

It's the power of suggestion. He's telling lies, and passing them of as facts so that poeple like Led Zep will believe him, and hopefully turn a few votes his way.

I don't know who genex is. But has anybody had a think about the age of the people that are pushing this thing (EBA 4)? Are they going to benefit more from having a bit more money now, rather than thinking about the future? In other words, these guys just want the money because they won't be around long enough to benefit from any GOAL or co-operation or whatever.

[Capt Kremin]

I agree with ID. It has been pointed out to Genex many times that his claims are downright wrong, the most obvious being his claim that AIPA is tryng to get QF pilots commands on Jetstar aircraft before Jetstar pilots get them.

Genex you know that is wrong. There is only one reason to continue pushing it and it does not speak well of your motives.

[fergusdog]

the tn/qf merger was a huge:mad::mad::mad::mad: shafting for tn pilots!!!!!!!

[I'm Driving]

................................

['holic]

That's the way. If you shout loud enough or write in really big letters, people will be convinced ........

[Led Zeppelin]

".... I found it interesting that their stupid rants were so quickly countered by the AIPA President...."

Well may they be countered. AIPA needs to keep these "extremists" (or are they ?) under control to hide the real agenda of this union's COM.

A very likely scenario is that QF mainline (domestic and international) flying will be devolved significantly into lower cost parts of the group. It doesn't take a genius to realise that J* will be involved in some of that devolution through increased flying and possibly more aircraft types.

What will that mean for the AIPA ? Shrinking numbers and less relevance as other pilot groups go from strength to strength.

This is the only reason that they want J* pilots to come on board, in order to try and retain some industrial muscle AND CONTROL. We would be there as a sideshow only - there to "make up the numbers". No thankyou.

Everyone should remember how J* was treated by the AIPA not 2 years ago. We were inferior in every respect. It's AIPA and AIPA alone who has created this awful feeling of distrust between the groups.:*

I reiterate what I said above. The best move now for Jetstar pilots is to start their own association, free from meddling from others with dubious motives.

[Capt Kremin]

Zeppelin, if you had really listened to the AIPA President, then you would know that the proposal would be for Jetstar pilots to be industrially autonomous whilst operating under the umbrella of a combined organisation for other functions.

The main thrust of such an organisation would be to halt the playing off of one group against each other. What would be your objection to such an arrangement?

[Led Zeppelin]

It can't be denied that AIPA has come out with some "interesting" positions re Jetstar in the past.

Tell me C.K. - Would AIPA be prepared to commit now in writing to agree that J* pilots can operate domestically and internationally on an unrestricted basis on whatever types and numbers of aircraft that are allocated to J* from the QF group. Bear in mind this could include more A330's, 787's and (possibly) the A380.

Yes or No ?

[speeeedy]

If it is in Jetstar colours and on their AOC, carrying their passengers (i.e. not a wet lease), then of course.

AIPA couldn't stop it anyway, which airline QF give the aircraft to is their prerogative.

The aim of this push for unity is to prevent each party being played off against each other leading to UNDERCUTTING as has happened in the recent past.

Gee some of you are a bit slow!

[Nuthinondaclock]

Led Zep,

If they would make that commitment would you consider getting onboard?

As Speedy said, AIPA doesn’t have the power to stop Qantas placing aircraft where they want. And what are these “interesting” positions you speak of from two years ago? Were they from the current AIPA team? I think most QF guys have expressed what we thought of the previous regimes’ handling of Jet*. Seeing you were in EK at the time I hope these are factual. Bear in mind it’s this sort of misinformation and creation of angst between pilot groups that management is trying to nurture and I’m afraid it seems to be working in your case. All the more reason to get our collective heads together. To put it bluntly what some bloke allegedly said two years+ ago is irrelevant at this juncture.

Nuf

[Dropt McGutz]

I'd like to know if Led Zep and Genex have spoken to AIPA about their concerns and if not, are they prepared to attend one of AIPA's roadshows?

[Nuthinondaclock]

I don't think Genex actually want's anything to work out. Led Zep, how about it? Would you consider going along and seeing what's on offer? At the least you acn drink some beer paid for by QF guys.:ok:

[Capt Kremin]

Zep.... yes. For reasons already presented.

[Led Zeppelin]

K.C. -

Well, lets see them actually put it in writing and we can go from there. :ok:

Too much history to accept anything else.:=

[Keg]

Put it in writing? Like he has done on dozens of occasions previously? What more evidence do you need? The AIPA president has on a variety of forums put forward the position that sees J* crew get first access to their aircraft.

How about this one from as recently as four days ago.

This statement relates to the prospect of QF keeping all 787s under the one AOC- a possibility to reduce the duplication of resources across both arilines.

... I believe that the AIPA COM would support the interleaving of 15 Jetstar B787 crews into Mainline 787 operations in the same way it did SH A330 crew? Again B787 allocation to Jetstar or Mainline could then be in accordance with market forces but both Jetstar and Mainline pilots would be on LH EBA 8 salaries.

This is essentially saying that J* crew may be flying a red tail one day and a orange star the next. Same for QF crew....on LH conditions. Does that not guarantee J* crew access to the flying that orange tail aircraft? What he's also saying is that if J* have 30 787s and QF have 30 787s then we both have half the total pilot numbers and interleave them on a common seniority pile to determine who gets what flying. If J* have 40 and QF have 30 then the J* crew get more slots, etc, etc, etc.

I'm reminded of a bible passage that talks about not throwing pearls before swine. It's basically about not giving the good news to those that can't or won't even listen to reason. Part of me sees the attempts by the QF drivers on this thread as exactly that. The reason I keep persisting is that I'm hopeful that the constant line by the many QF drivers will finally quash the disinformation, dishonesty, and intellectual ignorance of those who are pushing the 'AIPA and QF drivers are bad guys' line.

[Led Zeppelin]

Keg-

You should have quoted the next paragraph:

"....*Should Qantas management not endorse either of the above, I believe the AIPA COM will be required by its membership to take action to have put in place a binding irrevocable agreement that mainline pilots will operate all B787's (other than the 15 B787's that current Qantas management have promised to Jetstar)."

Who's kidding who here?

[Nuthinondaclock]

Zep,

The 787 is going to eventually replace the greater part of the QF fleet. Of course AIPA members are not going to take it lying down if they are not able to crew it on satisfactory terms and why would you expect them to.

THE WHOLE POINT OF A GROUP OPPORTUNITY LIST IS TO PREVENT THINGS FROM GETTING TO THIS POINT.

Not only that, but we also end up with a situation working to EVERYONES’ benefit where one group can’t be played off against another and we all share increased career path opportunities. It’s really quite simple. Please get to a road show if you can.

Regards,
Nuf.

[Keg]

Yup. The issue? Looks to me like he's guaranteeing those 787s to Jetstar and their crew! :ugh: So much for QF drivers 'stealing' J* promotions! :rolleyes: Given that you've read the comment on Qrewroom then it looks more and more like pearls before swine! :ugh:

Nuf has it on the money.

[Led Zeppelin]

I'll translate the code in Nufs' last paragraph:

Not only that, but we also end up with a situation working to QF AIPA pilots EVERYONES’ benefit where one group can can’t be played off against another and QF AIPA pilots we all share increased career path opportunities. It’s really quite simple.

Yes - it is very simple. We have seen the written evidence above about how far AIPA will go to protect their positions - does anyone honestly think we will not be thrown to the lions in the event they don't get their way ?

I implore any Jetstar pilot to think very seriously about getting into bed with AIPA.

[fistfokker]

I must say I think Led Zepp has hit the nail on the head. I have received the "good oil" directly from the AIPA president.

He believes in the GOAL but has made it quite clear that if QF and J* management do not agree with the GOAL then AIPA and its majority membership will do whatever it takes to ensure the 787 goes to QF. All perfectly understandable, but not necessarilly in the best interest of all the J* pilots that took the punt to make J* the success it has become. Why would they accept the AIPA's "generous" offer of only 15 787's when there is a significant likelihood of many more?

The president emphasised the number of experienced QF First officers and Second Officers that were all ready to asssist J* with its pilot shortage solution.

In the very long term I can see that the GOAL, if accepted by management, would be good for all Group pilots, but in the short term really only good for QF fo's and so's seeking quick promotion opportunities.

Maybe we should all be looking for the long term solution but I think the majority will be swayed by the short term.

To put "conditions" around the GOAL is not conducive to it getting up.

I think if AIPA want to have any success with the majority of J* pilots it should back the JPA's effort to get all J* pilots empoyed under the currently offerred EBA2008, then work together with the AFAP and the JPA for the long term good of all pilots in Australia.

[aulglarse]

LED, I have joined AIPA recently based on the merits and actions by the feds who have seemed to led the pilot group up the garden path very quickly and at what/whose expense?

The pilot group is all over the place thanks to the leadership shown by the JPA. The second vote has started. A Democratic society we all live in. Will it the best of 3 or 5?:*

[time4change]

Hi looking to join J * could anyone provide what the current offer is ? Many thanks.

[TurbTool]

TFC, probably not. At least until what is on offer is voted on by the Jetstar pilots themselves. Until then you may have to rely upon your own enquiries through the interview process. Wait until Tuesday 4th March for more info.

[Don Diego]

FF,the last two lines has hit the nail on the head.The sooner we are ALL in one industrial organisation ALL working together,then for my money, the better.The time is now to claw back some lost ground but alas there is little chance of this whilst we are so fragmented.:ok:

[time4change]

thanks TT yea heard a bit more this morning, I must comment from the outside looking in its a shame to see the pilot group so split. Im sure there is merit being in same union as Qantas Pilots or at least all together.

[Gnadenburg]

I have chatted with five highly experienced Airbus pilots recently, who, over the last few months have knocked back J* DEC's. Citing poor financials as the reason.

Is it true the Yarpies have been blocked due intense lobbying from AIPA? If so, my hats off to the long term vision of the QF guys.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

I'm in regionals and the best thing I did was to join AIPA. I felt they had a lot more to offer than the AFAP and am extremely happy with them so far. They also won the right to cover all Qantas subsidiary pilots so why bother with the AFAP now? You Jetstar blokes really are deluding yourselves. Show some balls and give AIPA a go. Go to their Jetstar briefing tomorrow. Stop being so devisive and consider ALL the Qantas group pilots futures. :)

[Led Zeppelin]

AULGLARSE - I understand how frustrated you and many others are with the Feds, however, joining the AIPA is NOT the answer at this point. There are far too many hidden agendas within AIPA to make an informed decision right now.

As a general scenario, were J* pilots to go to AIPA under its’ “Open Arms Policy”, lets look at how events would unfold in the event that AIPA felt they had to resort to the action quoted by me in red in a previous post.

The membership numbers of AIPA are way ahead of J*numbers now (J* ~ 450) , and even after 5 years when J* pilot numbers should be at some level over 1000 .

If the “membership” deal involves J* coming under an AIPA umbrella, what do you think is going to happen should AIPA COM vote to insist all 787 flying is done by mainline pilots. If this doesn’t become the hall mark of a fractured union, I don’t know what is. It will create so much animosity and anger that the situation will be unworkable. Members will be set against members as the AIPA “bit” seeks to remove flying from the J* side of the fence in order to get their way. AIPA “QF” members will be the majority and we will be left swinging in the wind. This after effectively paying AIPA membership fees that will ultimately advance the AIPA QF mainline pilots. What an insult.

Everyone should try and think this through on a longer term basis – The short term thinking is tempting but unrealistic.

The only fair way forward for J* pilots is to form their own association, in much the same way as (I think – but need to be corrected if I am wrong) the AN pilots did in the early 1990’s.

GNADENBURG – I can hardly see this as long term vision by the QF guys – more like short term myopia. Cheap talk about how you know so many pilots who have knocked back J* - so what; I know 4 who have accepted from the gulf. It’s irrelevant to this discussion.

EBD - I don't think their is any problem with regionals tying up with AIPA. You are no threat to AIPA COM. But we are in a VERY different position operating the same equipment as mainline with the distinct possibility of compromising mainline QF flying. I agree with you regarding the AFAP.

[Metro Boy]

Personally I feel that the AFAP and AIPA should amalgamate. That would probably solve a lot of the issues, however, I thought that it would be management who decides who flies what aircraft not AIPA. Am I wrong?

[Gingerbread]

Seems AIPA is serious? Here's the drum:

"For the last 3 days AIPA been involved in Roadshows in Brisbane, Adelaide and Melbourne, with Sydney to be held on Friday. Those 3 days have been a great opportunity to talk with Qantas Jetstar and Regional pilots, renew some old acquaintances and make some new ones.

With the re-vote of EBA4 open, the clear message AIPA has been getting from Qantas Jetstar pilots is that the re-vote should not be happening and that a proper, consultative process should be put in place for future negotiations on it. AIPA fully understands this message and shares the concerns that underlie it. Similar concerns formed the basis of AIPA’s decision to advocate a NO vote on EBA4.

In fact, having now considered the Roadshow feedback, responses to our letter urging a NO vote from last Friday (attached) and the importance of bringing together all Qantas Group pilots, AIPA has filed a Notice to Initiate a Bargaining Period on Jetstar and with the Australian Industrial Relations Commission.

In filing the Notice, AIPA has sought to preserve the rights of Jetstar pilots in regard to a proper negotiating process.

Also availoable on the public part of the AIPA website is an audio recording and presentation from the AIPA Roadshows to Jetstar pilots. The recording and presentation can be accessed by the following link: http://www.aipa.org.au/AboutAIPA/tabid/57/Default.aspx (http://www.aipa.org.au/AboutAIPA/tabid/57/Default.aspx)

AIPA URGES YOU TO LISTEN TO THE RECORDING AND REVIEW THE PRESENTATION BEFORE VOTING.

It is important to remember that a NO vote for EBA4 is the beginning of a proper negotiating process, and not the end."

Roll on March 4.:ok:

[hotnhigh]

Sorry Led, I cant see a away forward with what you are saying. I've been in QF mainline approaching 6 years now and am still waiting for a right hand seat, ( and yes, it will be the first opportunity in mainline for an fo spot.) I returned from the UK to this gig.
Whilst overseas I saw the advantage of one union, ie BALPA, in trying to advance the benefits for all pilots. This model is exactly what AIPA is trying to implement.
Jetstar will still have its own governing council, as would QF mainline and QF regional, but have the advantage of an umbrella of a overall body, that will hopefully, in time, provide independent negotiators, lawyers, etc,etc just as BALPA operates in the UK.
During all of this, there is no way that the QF mainline com can dictate to you about your future terms and conditions. You are still in the driving seat, but hopefully fully resourced to extract a deal that is great for everyone.

If this doesn't occur of course, I look forward to seeing what contract you have negotiated for me when I'm made redundant from the 76/744 or whatever aircraft type I may be on at the time and told here it is, take it or leave it.:ok:

[Nuthinondaclock]

You just don’t get it do you Led Zep. If you go with AIPA you won’t have them fighting for YOUR 787 jobs. That is what your quote in red refers to. No surprise really. Of course if Jet* pilots take the path management is attempting to steer then down AIPA will have to take serious action to protect their members future. It’s if something ISN’T worked out between us that that may occur. I repeat, the whole point of AIPA representation and a GOAL is to avoid this situation occurring. How many times do you have to be told that AIPA can’t insist where Qantas allocates its 787s? You will do ALL the Jet* flying on any aircraft type (or at least have the first choice to it) before any QF mainline guy will.

I’m surprised that you say,


Everyone should try and think this through on a longer term basis – The short term thinking is tempting but unrealistic.

I agree with the sentiments here (Glad we share a common aim) but you’re heading the other direction. The short term result of voting yes is a handful of cash (a gain) and setting in motion a divide between pilot groups which I fear will be difficult to ever repair, and result in a long term degradation of ALL pilots’ terms and condition in this country. It’s interesting too how you seem worried about long term security of your position and union division. That’s exactly what we’re concerned about. And your solution is to fracture the pilot groups further and vote in a deal which you know will cause further division. Even Fistfokker agrees that a GOAL is a good thing for you LONG term (Though he does have short term reservations). On that subject, Fistfokker, if the GOAL was setup as a Y and thus ensured all current Jet* pilots had first access to Jet* flying where do you see the short term danger for Jet* guys. (Obviously if it wasn’t going to be a Y I agree that it could well be detrimental for you and I would totally understand you not wanting to align with AIPA.)

The AN pilots set up their own association as they had no other available representation and no-one able to cover them. Given the recent history before this (1989) I don’t think there is any similarity to their situation and the threats we face today.

I repeat again, you don’t have time to set up a new association in time to deal with today’s situation. The JPA and AFAP have shown through their actions that they will sell you out to management. AIPA hasn’t. The negative stuff you hear about them is misinformation spread by those from the two previous groups and Jet* management muses. I stress again, get along to a road show or call AIPA, (02) 8307 7777, and speak to someone. Then make your own decision.

The situation Keg referred to of QF and JQ pilots being interleaved on the 787 was ONLY for if QF decides to keep them on 1 AOC. It means that even if this situation was to occur Jet* pilots and Mainline pilots have first access to the same amount of flying as if they were under separate AOC’s i.e. Jet* pilots fly Jet* 787s and QF pilots fly QF 787s. Again, no QF mainline pilot is stealing any Jet* flying or promotional opportunity.

I ask of you again Led Zep, what is this terrible history you have with AIPA that you speak of when it’s obvious from your previous posts that you have been at Jet* for a maximum of 13 months? (In your post 21 Dec 2006 you discuss the lateness of your January 2007 roster.) From what you write I can only be lead to think that you want your promotion at ANY cost. I think you are letting this cloud your judgement here. A GOAL will be a win/win for both groups.

Nuf.

[Led Zeppelin]

HnH -

I think you miss the point of my argument. The issue is not the fact that we would have a separate council etc etc and would operate under an autonomous umbrella.

The problem lies in what you say "....that will hopefully, in time, provide independent negotiators, lawyers, etc,etc just as BALPA operates in the UK...."

In the short to medium term (which is when this will all come to a head), how can this possibly be independent when the umbrella body is looking after the interests of QF mainline drivers, especially in the event that AIPA QF COM decides to proceed under the basis of Ian Woods scenario and tries to ban 787 flying from everyone except QF mainline. Under any examination, it's unworkable.

BALPA is a truly independent body and a very different creature from AIPA with it's vested interests.

An Australian BALPA equivalent is an ultimate and absolutely desirable aspiration - but would QF AIPA members be prepared now to dismantle their existing organisation and combine with J*, Qlink, Rex, Virgin to start a new "Australian ALPA" body. Somehow, I have my doubts.

OTOH, I reckon the other groups might be ready to consider the option as a way of achieving true solidarity while we still have some good times ahead.

[Keg]

There are far too many hidden agendas within AIPA to make an informed decision right now.

Ah, now I get it. What is your agenda Led? You've been pretty quiet on that so far. However here are a few interesting observations from this thread thus far. You don't pay attention to the totality of statements made by AIPA on Qrewroom. You don't listen to any of the QF drivers on here. You don't listen to the reason of the QF drivers when they talk about how incorrect your views are (seriously, as if the QF drivers could vote for the J* 787 drivers to not fly their own aircraft :rolleyes: ), you actively push disinformation.

In fact, the totality of your comments suggests being a lot closer to the action than an average line driver.

So are you one of the JPA negotiators? Are you a member of AFAP? Captain or F/O? Joined J* when? If you're going to bang on about hidden agendas then you had want to be very sure that you're not pushing one of your own. :rolleyes:

[hotnhigh]

Led, part of Ian Woods comments......

*Should Qantas not wish to agree to the GOAL, I believe, assuming the Company does not reneg for problematic operational, commercial or financial reasons, on its promise to Jetstar pilots that they will operate the first 15 B787's, that it would, nonetheless, be economically cheaper to have all B787's operating under one AOC with one training regime and I believe that the AIPA COM would support the interleaving of 15 Jetstar B787 crews into Mainline 787 operations in the same way it did SH A330 crew? Again B787 allocation to Jetstar or Mainline could then be in accordance with market forces but both Jetstar and Mainline pilots would be on LH EBA 8 salaries.*Should Qantas management not endorse either of the above, I believe the AIPA COM will be required by its membership to take action to have put in place a binding irrevocable agreement that mainline pilots will operate all B787's (other than the 15 B787's that current Qantas management have promised to Jetstar). While this outcome does not, in itself, stop management allocating B787's other than in accordance with market forces, it would stop Qantas group pilots being played off against each other so Qantas management can gloat that they have achieved the world's lowest B787 piloting salaries.

At no time has Ian Woods hinted or suggested that 787 flying would be banned from Jetstar.
Facts are pretty important here....

[Keg]

An Australian BALPA equivalent is an ultimate and absolutely desirable aspiration ...

And yet you won't take the logical first step of having all pilots in the same group come together. :rolleyes: Why is that? What is your agenda in blocking what is the logical first step in a truly industry wide industrial organisation?

If that is the outcome- and I think it's a great outcome- then lets start working towards it. Join AIPA and we've got a great first step. Then you and I can stand side by side and push harder for it. Don't think for a second that there aren't those of us who aren't pushing for it. The response I get from those I know and trust in AIPA is 'one step at a time', 'walk before you run, etc'.

Of course then there are the nay sayers who think that AIPA is out to 'control' the industrial landscape in Australian Aviation and who would view such an overt and public push by AIPA of more evidence as to their deviousness. It can't be had both ways. Either it's good for the industry for all of us to get together or it's not.

So what's it going to be Led? Going to take the first step towards what you reckon is a good thing or are you going to keep pushing your own hidden agenda?

[aulglarse]

LED, mate have you had a listen to the podcast from AIPA on the JQ website? If not, give it a go. :ok:

[Nuthinondaclock]

From Led Zep,


“......especially in the event that AIPA QF COM decides to proceed under the basis of Ian Woods scenario and tries to ban 787 flying from everyone except QF mainline.”

Total bulls@it. He never said this at all and the only thing he said remotely similar was for the situation of a GOAL and AIPA representation NOT happening AND management trying to isolate QF pilots from the 787. Certainly not a secret agenda. Again, the above situation is what we're trying to prevent here.

To quote myself,


“I ask of you again Led Zep, what is this terrible history you have with AIPA that you speak of when it’s obvious from your previous posts that you have been at Jet* for a maximum of 13 months? (In your post 21 Dec 2006 you discuss the lateness of your January 2007 roster.) From what you write I can only be lead to think that you want your promotion at ANY cost. I think you are letting this cloud your judgement here.”


Or maybe Keg’s right and it’s you with the secret agenda. After all it’s you who keeps using the term. There’s a psychological term for that, it’s called projection. PROJECTION (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection).

Nuf.