At what speed does VFR become too difficult?

[Contacttower]

Assuming one is flying around the packed airspace of Southern England at low level, trying to get words in edge ways, dodging this and that while trying to stay aware of your position with nothing but DR and the map.

At what speed does this simply become too difficult? At 100kts it's possible, but at 250kts say would it still be practical or would it just be a matter of time before you ended up busting airspace?

[S-Works]

the mob manage it at several hundred knots.

[llanfairpg]

We manage 280 kts on a clear day no probs, mostly inside zones, bit occasionally outside around 3000ft. It dosnt seem that fast if you do it often enough but it seems alarmingly slow when you get back into a C152!

[shortstripper]

Isn't the legal limit 250 knots anyway? I might be wrong, just seem to remember that figure (it's been a while since I did air law, and I doubt I could do 250 knots in my a/c even if I were to plummet toward a school :\ )

SS

[llanfairpg]

You are quite correct, outside controlled airspace but not too many speed cameras up there yet but who knows with our Europen friends--Heil Europe Comrade

[PPRuNe Radar]

You are quite correct, outside controlled airspace but not too many speed cameras up there yet but who knows with our Europen friends--Heil Europe Comrade

Using that philosophy, it's probably ok to fly in Controlled Airspace above it's base without a clearance as long as you don't have Mode C. There's no policing after all :ugh:

[llanfairpg]

Using that philosophy, it's probably ok to fly in Controlled Airspace above it's base without a clearance as long as you don't have Mode C. There's no policing after all

Youve lost me there and many of my colleagues I would suspect, but do consider that most airline pilots think that Aviation Law is an american film star.

[BEagle]

I once went from Dunsfold to Scampton via Greenham Common in a Hawk at 2-3000ft VFR.

Took about 25 min. Mostly at around 420 KIAS, but a bit quicker at times.

No GPS, no VOR - just map and stopwatch.

Lovely trip!!

[llanfairpg]

I say old chap, hope that was colour code blue?

[tmmorris]

They do say you haven't been properly lost until you've been lost at 420kts. Or a mile every 9 seconds or so.

Tim

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Using that philosophy, it's probably ok to fly in Controlled Airspace above it's base without a clearance as long as you don't have Mode C. There's no policing after all

Easy there Pprune Radar, you are picking on someone who is his own law and has the ability to be selective.

But for us commoner morons your point was well put. :E:E:E

[PPRuNe Radar]

Youve lost me there and many of my colleagues I would suspect, but do consider that most airline pilots think that Aviation Law is an american film star.

Not hard to understand your original position, which was breaking the 250 Knot legal limit was OK because it was not policed. My extension was that if you break one rule which isn't policed, then why won't your mentality let you break any number of others which are not policed. Your chances of being caught are going to be slim after all, unless you have an accident or incident.

It wouldn't be rocket science for the authorities to put in a 'speed limit' detector especially with Mode S, especially if it is to catch law breakers who break a law which is ostensibly there to provide a safe environment. :}

The 250Kts is probably an arbitrary figure, but if you want it changed to something higher, then why not provide the safety data that shows a higher speed is Ok and then lobby ICAO (or the CAA if you only want it in the UK) for a change ??

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Pprune Radar.....Danny sure has given us a great entertainment site...I just love it.

Maybe Ian thinks that flying 30 knots over the speed limit is OK as long as he is doing it into a head wind....The good part is as long as he is wearing his Hi Vis Vest he will be safe.

[llanfairpg]

Not hard to understand your original position, which was breaking the 250 Knot legal limit was OK because it was not policed. My extension was that if you break one rule which isn't policed, then why won't your mentality let you break any number of others which are not policed. Your chances of being caught are going to be slim after all, unless you have an accident or incident.

Its a good point but may be invalidated by the fact that I allways walk back to the terminal with my high viz jacket on (slowly)

[Islander2]

llanfairpg, please help me out on this. I'm struggling to reconcile your confession that:

We manage 280 kts on a clear day no probs, mostly inside zones, but occasionally outside around 3000ft ..... not too many speed cameras up there yetwith your holier-than-thou admonishment on the hi-vis jacket thread:

If you do not like rules dont fly, aviation is a rule based discipline.Are we to understand that you believe statutory laws are there to be broken as long as you are unlikely to be caught, yet non-statutory, nonsensical 'rules' promoted by the burgeoning and frequently idiotic H&S industry are sacrosanct and to be observed without question?

[S-Works]

I just fell off my chair laughing. Between Chuck and Islander my day has been made. Thanks guys.
:ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I just fell off my chair laughing. Between Chuck and Islander my day has been made. Thanks guys.

Your welcome Bose experience and age trumps ego every time.

Furthermore I'm to old a cat to be fu.ked by a kitten.:ok:

[llanfairpg]

Islander

Are we to understand that you believe statutory laws are there to be broken as long as you are unlikely to be caught, yet non-statutory, nonsensical 'rules' promoted by the burgeoning and frequently idiotic H&S industry are sacrosanct and to be observed without question?No you are to understand that in order to position correctly for the approach at some airfields after being held up high in the airway by ATC it is necessary to sometimes exceed the speed limit outside controlled airspace by 30 kts to remove this excess height.

You are also to understand that as the commander of a public transport aircraft I alone decide on the best course of action in any given circumstance. I use the law as a guide, not a bible.

[llanfairpg]

I just fell off my chair laughing.

But stability has never been your strong point, has it?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I just fell off my chair laughing.

But stability has never been your strong point, has it?

A wise man knows when to quit......

Your lack of consistency and lame come backs are making a mockery of your colleagues in aviation...assuming you are in aviation.

[llanfairpg]

So why post a response 'wise man'?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

So why post a response 'wise man'?

Because it entertains the troops and thus supports Pprune as the number one aviation place to be for relaxing comedy. :ok:

[llanfairpg]

Your lack of consistency and lame come backs are making a mockery of your colleagues in aviation...assuming you are in aviation.

[llanfairpg]

Yea, come on Chuck you can do better than that.

[S-Works]

Out of interest llanfairpg, are you an airline pilot coming to the end of his career and trying to find something new to occupy your time?

It's just you spent your entire career on pprune over on the 'airline' forums and in the last few weeks have moved to private flying to inspire us with your vast experience and wisdom.

Like I said just curious, us mere mortals love to follow greatness you see.

[llanfairpg]

My apologies, what was I thinking.

I am not sure, but try the clairvoyant section

[llanfairpg]

Ah, see your off the floor Bose.

Thanks for your interest Bose but might be best if you save your quips for the good slagging you keep geting on the IMC rating thread.

[llanfairpg]

Like I said just curious, us mere mortals love to follow greatness you see.

and dont forget to fill your log book in correctly, its P1 U/S

[IO540]

I am not sure whether the original Q is serious, because the assumptions (too much traffic, can't get a word in, etc) are mostly incorrect. I did type up a reply and then IE6 crashed, as it often does with pprune.org - presumably to one of the advertising feeds containing some duff flash stream...

In short, there is no problem flying at 200kt+ with a decent GPS, and anybody navigating WW1-style just needs to hack it any way they can. 100kt gets pretty boring pretty fast if you want to get somewhere.

[Roffa]

llanfairpg, are you Mode S equipped and if so are you sending back any downlinked parameters... like IAS for example?

Big brother might indeed be watching if you were ever involved in an incident outside CAS in cover of a Mode S radar and whilst speeding as these DAPs are all recorded automatically.

As Sgt Phil Esterhaus used to say, "Let's be careful out there".

[llanfairpg]

Yes you are quite right but I have to say it is a very common airline occurence that everyone turns a blind eye too. In the hundreds of pilots we have I only know of one who refused at anytime to exceed 250kts below F100 and he has retired.

The big problem for us is getting high and fast because you can usually only address one of those problems at a time with success.

In an ideal world you wouldnt be held up high but UK airspace is so busy its common place

[dublinpilot]

Isn't the whole purpose of the 250kt speed limit to allow see and avoid some chance of working?

So now we have the fare paying public not only flying outside controlled airspace, but been flown by pilots who are throwing aside the last line of safety in the open FIR. :rolleyes:

Do I see a TV documentary in the making?

[Contacttower]

I am not sure whether the original Q is serious, because the assumptions (too much traffic, can't get a word in, etc) are mostly incorrect.


I assure you the original question was serious. The 'assumptions' of a lot of traffic, lots of things to stear around or try and get clearance through weren't assumptions really, just possible reasons for why VFR at high speeds might be a bit difficult. They are not necessarily real. 'See and aviod' might be another reason why high speed VFR might be a bad idea.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

[llanfairpg]

Do I see a TV documentary in the making?

Good idea, with the radar controller the star perhaps, with TCAS and transponders as support

[JW411]

But most of the time that ATC ask us to "keep the speed up" below F100 we are already inside controlled airspace and it has to be said that this happens fairly frequently. However, I think the original question implies VFR flight outside of controlled airspace.

I was once persuaded by my boss to come back from Beauvais VFR (to save a 3-hour slot delay) and we did most of it at 240 knots. I swore that I would never do it again. It was not smart.

As to the previous altercation, I cannot help thinking about being asked to do 280 knots in a PBY-5A! That would probably only be possible if the entire crew were wearing high visibility jackets.

[llanfairpg]

To get back to the thread I suppose you could say the slower you fly the more easy it is to see and avoid. So in that case high speed should have been a factor in most UK collisions--has it?

[tmmorris]

I don't want to come over all pious, but what's got into everyone this week? First Niknak, whom I thought to be quite a nice chap, calls me a tit in public for not being able to identify a particular type of twin by sight; then Llanfairpg and Chuck Ellsworth, whose contributions have both seemed sensible before, start a slanging match...

Come on, chaps, just calm down!

Tim

[llanfairpg]

I was once persuaded by my boss to come back from Beauvais VFR (to save a 3-hour slot delay) and we did most of it at 240 knots. I swore that I would never do it again. It was not smart.

Yes I think some have believed that we fly around outside CAS without positive radar control, that is asking for trouble at high speed.

[Roffa]

Minor point perhaps, but you don't get "positive radar control" outside CAS.

[llanfairpg]

Minor point perhaps, but you don't get "positive radar control" outside CAS.

Well whatever you call it when ATC advise you are identified, give you a squawk, steer you away from traffic, descend you and steer you for the centreline.

[chevvron]

I once took John Farley in G-VTOL from Dunsfold to Bedford on radar; it took about 7 min takeoff to touchdown; on another occasion Duncan Simpson was taking a Hawk to Hatfield (from Dunsfold again) and asked (husky voiced) 'is it OK to do 350 here (Woodley below controlled airspace) or should I slow down'!!

[Contacttower]

Come on, chaps, just calm down!



I couldn't agree more Tim (and FWIW I thought your 'remember to say unable' thread was a very good idea).

One is sometimes just left feeling on PPRuNe you simply shouldn't have posted anything in the first place. :ugh:

[llanfairpg]

But boys and girls dont take it too seriously, life is only another game

[charliegolf]

At what speed does VFR become too difficult?

When the aeroplane is doing X KIAS, and your brain is doing X-10 KIAS. The end will be nigh.

CG

[BEagle]

"Well whatever you call it when ATC advise you are identified, give you a squawk, steer you away from traffic, descend you and steer you for the centreline."

:hmm:

My 'Walter Mitty' caution has just lit up.....

Kid with a scanner?

[dublinpilot]

Good idea, with the radar controller the star perhaps, with TCAS and transponders as support

But isn't that the whole point of see and avoid being the last line of defence outside controlled airspace? Aircraft outside controlled airspace are not required to have transponders, nor TCAS, many don't even have electrical systems.

I know you'll say but what about primiary radar.....I'm getting a radar advisory service, but as I understand it many types don't paint very well on primary radar. Primiary radar also gives no altitude indication. Hence the need to have see and avoid, which has only got a chance if the speeds aren't too great, which is why we have a speed limit.

dp

[S-Works]

Ah, see your off the floor Bose.

Thanks for your interest Bose but might be best if you save your quips for the good slagging you keep geting on the IMC rating thread.


To be fair every-time you post I end up on the floor laughing. I may get slagged off but at least I am consistent.....

It does amuse me though how you sink to personal abuse when unable to come back with wit when a bit of humour is aimed at you.

So you going to answer the question then!

[llanfairpg]

My 'Walter Mitty' caution has just lit up.....Are you sure that wasnt about 40 years ago at Cranfield?

[llanfairpg]

To be fair every-time you post I end up on the floor laughing. I may get slagged off but at least I am consistent.....

It does amuse me though how you sink to personal abuse when unable to come back with wit when a bit of humour is aimed at you

Happy to help--but see if you can stop laughing at yourself and stick to the thread.

[BEagle]

Master Caution has now become a Master Warning.......

[BackPacker]

Oh man, I was out flying this afternoon (training aerobatics, 2000' hard deck, 2500' lower limit and BKN033 - good practice) and missed this slugfest. Three pages in, what, four-five hours? Fortunately it's all recorded for posterity.

Anyway,

Isn't the whole purpose of the 250kt speed limit to allow see and avoid some chance of working?

Don't know if that's exactly true, but I do remember seeing somewhere that airline cockpit windows have to withstand a bird strike (of a certain size/weight bird) up to 250 knots.

[llanfairpg]

Master Caution has now become a Master Warning.....

Only Master Bates left for you now--enjoy

[frontlefthamster]

250 below 10 is priincipally about see and avoid, though just why is lost in the mists of time. There are similar certification issues, which are convenient for manufacturers who don't want to fit hugely expensive windows. :8

In answer to the original question, why does it matter? Just change to IFR. :ok:

[BEagle]

On 16 Dec 1960, a United Airlines DC-8 and a TWA Super Constellation collided in midair over Brooklyn, N.Y., killing all 128 occupants aboard the aircraft and eight persons on the ground. CAB determined that the probable cause was that the United Airlines flight proceeded beyond its clearance limit and confines of the airspace assigned by ATC. The DC-8's high speed, coupled with a change of clearance which reduced the distance which the aircraft needed to travel by approximately 11 miles, contributed to the crash. The Board concluded that the crew did not take note of the change of time and distance associated with the new clearance. The crew's workload was increased by the fact that one of their two VOR receivers was inoperative, a fact unbeknown to ATC.

FAA actions taken as a result of the accident included:

1. A requirement that pilots operating under instrument flight rules report malfunctions of navigation or communications equipment, effective 17 Feb 1961.

2. A programme to equip all turbine-powered aircraft with DME.

3. A speed rule, effective 18 Dec 1961, prohibiting aircraft from exceeding 250 knots when within 30 nautical miles of a destination airport and below 10000 feet, except for certain military jets requiring a higher minimum speed for safe operation.

4. Other steps to strengthen air traffic control procedures.

[llanfairpg]

Speed was contributory but the main cause was

United Flight 826 proceeded beyond its clearance limit and the confines of the airspace allocated to the flight by Air Traffic Control.

[S-Works]

With all due credit to you llanfairpg you know how to try and brow beat people into agreeing with you. Do you display the same dogmatic approach when driving the AP on the people tube?


:LOL:

[llanfairpg]

Do you display the same dogmatic approach when driving the AP on the people tube?

Only above 250kts (with my scanner on)

[frontlefthamster]

BEagle,

I'm not sure that that was the trigger for the limit in non-FAA States (it came to mind earlier, but I've a feeling that we already had the rule here...)

[IO540]

Contacttower
Let me give you a decent reply then.

"Assuming one is flying around the packed airspace of Southern England "

It is busy only in some places, and mainly below 1500ft or so. In past 10 years, 11 UK mid-airs of which 10 below 1000ft and 1 reportedly at 1800ft.

Few in GA would fly at those levels if going somewhere "fast". Most serious VFR pilots fly as high as they can, clouds and airspace permitting. In the absence of weather/airspace one would fly at 4000+ft as this gives you calm air even on hot summer days. The best MPG (typical IFR tourer, non-turbo engine) is at 7000-10000ft.

"trying to get words in edge ways"

This is the way the PPL is taught (high radio workload, inside leg measurement supplied to every ATC unit within 2,000nm radius) but one doesn't actually do this when flying for real. You can go non-radio in Class G - no point in calling up any ATC enroute unless they can offer you a radar service, and if you get that, and give them your routing (A-B-C-D using navaid waypoints, not village names) they tend to leave you alone, with implicit MATZ transits etc. They are busy enough dealing with pilots who don't know where they are going or are non-transponding so nobody knows how high they are.

" while trying to stay aware of your position with nothing but DR and the map."

Why navigate WW1-style when there is no need to? Get a big moving map GPS, and your nav workload falls by at least 90%.

"At what speed does this simply become too difficult? At 100kts it's possible, but at 250kts say would it still be practical or would it just be a matter of time before you ended up busting airspace?"

I can't speak for dead reckoning (I don't do it) but the RAF seem to get about OK at higher speeds, allegedly with just maps, headings and timing. Mind you, they are the cream of the cream of the young men (those that don't make the grade used to become navigators and end up in the CAA :) ) and don't compare with civilian pilot recruits at all. They also have good ground backup and - due to generally poor fuel endurance - fly carefully preplanned missions. Some of them do have GPS; in fact any military plane that goes anywhere near any real action needs to have proper nav.

250kt at 3000ft would be a piece of cake, with a GPS - just follow the magenta line, manually or on autopilot. I've seen 220kt ground speed and it wasn't really noticeable; the ground below moves just a little faster than usual. I often wish I had 250kt IAS, to cover distances. Obviously one doesn't fly the circuit at 250kt.

Poor visibility is something else. You can fly legal UK-PPL VFR with 3000m vis, which is more or less total haze ahead. I don't see anybody dead reckoning in that, other than at a very low speed and low level. Very hard work.

Regarding the 250kt limit, this is 250kt IAS. With the TAS multiplier (in a 250kt IAS descent through/from FL100) and some tailwind, your GS could easily be 300-350kt and you would still be legal.

[llanfairpg]

Mind you, they are the cream of the cream of the young men (those that don't make the grade used to become navigators and end up in the CAA

Or VC10 pilots

[Contacttower]

Or VC10 pilots


Wasn't BEagle a VC10 pilot? :D:D

[llanfairpg]

Steady--you might fire off his Master Warning?

[llanfairpg]

Why navigate WW1-style when there is no need to? Get a big moving map GPS, and your nav workload falls by at least 90%.

Why not fly schedule and remove all of you work load? Surely the art of light aircraft flying is being able to map read and navigate and besides if you have got that much of a work load you are not navigating properly.

[dublinpilot]

How about a new idea? We debate the issues, without getting agressive or personal? :eek:

There are too many threads here recently that have degenerated into personal attack after personal attack. :(

dp

[Contacttower]

While the original question was serious, it was I admit, rather 'academic'. Generally speaking the only people who do the sort of high speed VFR flying I had in mind are the military and as IO540 correctly points out, why try flying around at high speed with just a map and stopwatch when the workload can be reduced by using other means...of course, and you probably wouldn't deliberately inflict that upon yourself. I was just interested to see what people thought...


Are you sure that wasnt about 40 years ago at Cranfield?


llanfairpg am I missing something or did you actually mean Cranwell?

[stickandrudderman]

I think we should change the name from "Private flying" to " Is this the right room for an arguement?"

[llanfairpg]

Yes you are missing something! The problem for many on here is they actually do not know who they are talking too!

[Contacttower]

Yes you are missing something! The problem for many on here is they actually do not know who they are talking too!


One of the most interesting things about reading PPRuNe is guessing who the 'people behind the name' really are and who actually knows who in the real world. I could be a well versed 10 year old....

[S-Works]

Yes you are missing something! The problem for many on here is they actually do not know who they are talking too!

Wow! We are not worthy........... Please enlighten us o'master.... :p

Wilbur or Orville?

[llanfairpg]

There are too many threads here recently that have degenerated into personal attack after personal attack.Hey, well dont blame me, I just answer posts in the style and manner they are posted in. You will not find me starting any posts by personal attack.

If you look back at these posts Chuck and Bose started off the personal attacks and its not exactly the first time either.

Now I am not particularly bothered by what they write but if they make a post directed at me I do reserve the right to reply.

I am sorry that you guys have to wade through all this rubbish but i will not be on here much longer anyway so you may get back to a quieter life.

Nipping flaming in the bud early prevents these people from continually getting away with personal insults but that sort of moderation dosnt exist on here, as BREL says if you dont like it go elsewhere and it seems quite a few have from when I was last on here.

[llanfairpg]

Yes contact tower you have the intelligence to know what I mean--for Bose,

I know some of the people on here, some a lot more personally than they will ever know. Lets say I also know quite a few in Virgin too!

Happy guessing!

[BackPacker]

I think we should change the name from "Private flying" to " Is this the right room for an arguement?"

How about we add a facility that allows us to add a subtitle to each thread. Then this one could have a subtitle "the llanfairpg slugfest". The one about P1 on a clubcheck could have been "the DFC slugfest". I remember Bose-X and IO540 being a victim in the past too (sometimes of each other, I might add), and I'm pretty sure my time will come someday as well.

And then I don't even follow the IMC or Oban threads...:ugh:

(Mind you, this won't provide a solution if some people decide to spread the slugfest over two or more threads. For that, we also need to add a facility to select a few posters names and have the forum display all their recent posts in chronological fasion. I'm currently flipflopping back and forth between the difficult VFR speed and the P1/clubcheck thread to keep up.)

[llanfairpg]

And then I don't even follow the IMC or Oban threads.

I can keep you up to speed on both

The IMC rating campaign is badly organised and conceived but there is a petition on the Downing St web site..

Oban costs £50,000 a month to run but is open for business unless the council decides to build houses on it.

[IO540]

OK chaps let's forget the nonsense one-liners - otherwise this forum will become like a certain other one.

It's interesting to discuss how fast one could fly VFR with different methods and at different heights.

At FL100, in "obvious terrain", I am sure flying at Mach1 is a piece of cake.

At 1000ft, in terrain devoid of clear features, you will be lost at 100kt soon enough. Your faith will have to be totally into flying an accurate heading etc.

In WW2, US Navy pilots were reportedly able to judge the wind from the appearance of the sea, well enough to find their carrier after say a 300nm leg over water - pretty amazing given that you had to be within maybe 10nm of it to find it (in daytime). Many didn't.

IMHO, flying at 1000ft at 250kt over SE Engoland, map and compass, if you don't know the place at all, in vis bad enough to not see the coastline from where you are, would not be easy. But a well trained person would be fine - until he makes a mistake.

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

250 kts at FL100 is easier than 250kts at 100ft.

I find if you pay the nice chaps at CAA some money, they give you a bit of paper saying you can go faster than 250kts below FL100, but only when in receipt of a radar service. Piece of paper has 12 months validity before they want more money.

And as for not doing 250kts in the circuit - it seems like a good speed to me to be at when calling "initials" and then heading down the runway at 500ft before pulling back on that stick thing between your legs and pulling the fan to idle. (Air brakes out too if you want, as you pull a climbing turn to get onto the downwind leg....)

[S-Works]

I know some of the people on here, some a lot more personally than they will ever know. Lets say I also know quite a few in Virgin too!

Now you were the one that sank to insults when you ran out of wit!!! And I was just needling you for a bit of fun!!!!!

When you were checking people out on the Wassemer were they logging P1 u/S?



Backpacker i'll have you know that IO and I are friends and we are smart enough to know when a bit of needling is going on!!! :p

[twistedenginestarter]

So what sort of planes are you boys in doing 400kts skirting around Southern England low-level controlled airspace without radar service?

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

only civvy aircraft I can think of that might be pootling around at 400 kts in the SE of England would be Gnats or Hunters.....

[FlyingForFun]

Interesting thread, if you read between the slanging matches.

Mind you, even reading between the slanging matches, there's still no answer been given.

Two stories which might be relevant, both, coincidentally, from when I was working at Blackpool.

The first was overheard on the radio as a B737 was being vectored by ATC "under possitive radar control" in Class G airspace. He complained to the controller, quite angrilly, that he'd nearly hit a microlight, and would be filing an airprox as soon as he landed. The controller, very professionally, replied that the microlight was not squawking, is too small to show up on his primary radar, and was operating outside controlled airspace without speaking to anyone, as is his right, therefore it is the responsibility of both pilots to see and avoid.

The second was also overheard on the radio, as my boss got airbourne in a Cessna Citation for a short VFR flight. Once airbourne, he asked the controller for a handover to Manchester for a transit through their zone. After a short pause, the controller replied that Manchester had said they wanted him to go down the Low Level Route if he was VFR. Several weeks later, I asked him about this. He went rather white, mumbled something about getting tangled up with a Pitts doing aeros in the Barton overhead, then wandered off saying "never again, never again".

FFF
---------------

[chevvron]

D SQDRN 97th IOTC: Wrong! Civil registered ex military aircraft authorised to exceed 250kt below 10,000 in class G must be receiving a radar service to do so.

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

chevvron

you clearly can't read

this is a quote from an ealier post of mine on this thread

"I find if you pay the nice chaps at CAA some money, they give you a bit of paper saying you can go faster than 250kts below FL100, but only when in receipt of a radar service. Piece of paper has 12 months validity before they want more money."

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Ken Wells]

:eek:That's easy, just use your real name and stop hiding behind non de plumes!

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

I certainly k for one
and I reckon that most of us k deep down

how dare you suggest I don't?
:=

[englishal]

Pushing 250 Kts is not uncommon. My mate flies for a living and when repositioning VFR they are doing just below 250 VFR below CAS (could be below 3000' for example).

Last time I was in the states I got a call from ATC...."Traffic 9 o'clock a KC10 at 5500 VFR"......;)

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

For those of mode S transponders - in UK, speed outside regulated airspace is now being watched.... :suspect:

[IO540]

For those of mode S transponders - in UK, speed outside regulated airspace is now being watched..How do they work out the IAS? The speed limit is IAS, not GS and not even TAS.

Not impossible but you would need to feed the winds aloft in real time into the software. Where would the wind data come from, accurate enough to prosecute? From airliner air data computers, but they fly thousands of feet (at least) above GA traffic. GA traffic with Mode S will not in 99% of cases be radiating any Enhanced parameters.

So I think this is a windup. The only traffic that could possibly be monitored would be CAT flying in Class G.

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

IO540, There is no working out to be done. IAS is one of the enhanced parameters that Mode S will transmit to the ATC radar position.

[IO540]

Yes, Enhanced Mode S only. Over 5700kg or over 250kt TAS certified max cruise.

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

Exactly - the speed limit is 250 kts.