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DC-8
13th Jan 2008, 11:17
Just assume we are flying and ILS APP for RW25 and then circling to land for RW07. When we are in final for RW07, we decide to make a go around for any reason. In this case, would you perform the published missed approach procedure for ILS RW25 or any other published G/A procedure for any other app. for RW07 (VOR, NDB...)?

Thanks!

reac
13th Jan 2008, 11:23
DC-8, you should fly the published missed approach for the Instrument Procedure you are flying. Therfore fly the missed approach for ILS 25 in your case. This can involve 'unusual' turns, however the missed approach procedure for 07 could be 'climb straight ahead' With other traffic coming down the ILS 25, that could prove interesting!

hetfield
13th Jan 2008, 11:26
Definetly for the rwy you have flown the instrument appeoach e.g. rwy 25.

Nevertheless you can ask the tower to fly another visual pattern, if weather permits.

26point2
13th Jan 2008, 11:35
Assume that you were being followed by another aircraft say 15 minutes behind you. when you make your missed approach from 07 that other aircraft is at maybe 8 miles on the ils for 25.

Now you can see why you need to make a u turn, visually manuevering on the same side of the airport as your cirle to land (usually) and follow the 25 missed approach..

Max Angle
13th Jan 2008, 12:04
In a lot of cases there won't be a missed approach procedure for the other runway because there is no instrument approach, it's normally the reason you are circling in the first place.

DC-8
13th Jan 2008, 12:22
OK. Thank you very much for your replies!

A and C
13th Jan 2008, 12:50
No one above has said anything that is wrong but the GA for the runway that you have made the approach to might well not be appropriate.

I can think of a few airfields that use CTL because you cant make a direct approach to the runway using "normal" practice, with these airfields a normal GA during the CTL will put you into high ground.

ab33t
13th Jan 2008, 13:14
Most procedures that use circle to land have a missed for that as well ie climb to certain altitude with immdetiate to safe side of runway .

hawk37
13th Jan 2008, 13:14
A and C, can you elaborate? What airfields? And sorry, what do you mean by "CTL"? Hawk

Tight Slot
13th Jan 2008, 13:19
CTL = Circle to Land me thinks

bookworm
13th Jan 2008, 13:20
PANS-OPS Vol 1 S4 Ch 7 is quite specific:

7.4 MISSED APPROACH PROCEDURE WHILE CIRCLING
7.4.1 If visual reference is lost while circling to land from an instrument approach, the missed approach specified for that particular procedure must be followed. The pilot will make an initial climbing turn toward the landing runway and overhead the aerodrome. At this point, the pilot will establish the aircraft climbing on the missed approach track.

Dream Land
13th Jan 2008, 13:46
This thread was painfully covered about four months ago, do a search.

A and C
13th Jan 2008, 16:41
Thanx Tight slot you are of course quite right about the CTL, the airfields that spring to mind first are LPMA and LFLB.

Farty Flaps
13th Jan 2008, 17:06
Aand C , A rather unsubtle attempt to highlight your worshipful cat c status eh?
To compare proceedure /trg specific cat 3 airports to the overwhelming majority of airports that the rule applies is a disingenious way to highlight your superior special circling skills.So in this case you are wrong. the airfields you mention are exceptions to the rule. Now wind your neck in and get back to having your bollocks felt at security.;)

A and C
13th Jan 2008, 17:22
Me....... I'm just an umble flight engineer trying to point out that it is always worth reading the small print. As for security no MOR's this month.........Yet!

Any way are you looking forward to your bright future?

bookworm
13th Jan 2008, 18:46
the airfields that spring to mind first are LPMA and LFLB

I think the PANS-OPS procedure still works fine. Just remember to turn towards the landing runway.

At Chambery ILS 18 circling for 36, you can make a right turn from downwind to establish on the ILS 18 missed approach, which happens to be on a track of 357. At Funchal on VOR 23 circling for 05, a right turn from downwind to establish on the missed track of 139 should also work.

A and C
13th Jan 2008, 19:27
I'm not sure that turning toward the runway from downwind at LPMA is such a good idea, with the runway being so near the high ground.
From down wind I think that a turn out to sea away from the high ground direct towards FUSIL is the safest way to go, once the turn towards the runway has started you are commited to that action and this should only be done if you are 100% sure that you can stay visual. If at that stage a GA is required then you must contunue the turn to pick up the track towards FUSIL but I would want to stay in visual contact with the island untill I was heading out to sea.

At Chambery the turn towards the runway is undoubtedly the thing to do and then follow the 18 backcourse. but this is not altogether following the 18missed aproach as you are only following the second half of it but may be this is splitting hairs.

Pilot Pete
13th Jan 2008, 22:55
A & C

I think you are splitting hairs. At FNC and CMF you ARE following the missed approach for the runway that you did the approach to. As you point out, it's just using common sense for the first bit to establish safely on that missed approach. Done both.;)

The rule is as already stated by many; follow the missed approach for the instrument approach you flew. Oh, but let's add the little caveat that DON'T compromise the safety of the aircraft whilst establishing yourself back on that procedure.;)

What works best is to fully brief the G/A actions at various stages of the circling manoeuvre to ensure, as ever, that you are both singing from the same song sheet before you get there.

PP

Edited to add, what are your thoughts about ILS 18 at Chambery in the dark and followed by a G/A? Interesting when they have another aircraft following you down the ILS eh?

BOAC
14th Jan 2008, 08:06
I have no doubt ATC are prepared for that and have a 'cunning plan'. Similar situation at INN where I understand approaches are sequenced to allow one g/a back up the ILS. Personally I try to avoid CMF especially at night:) (Not having a lot of success......)

A and C
14th Jan 2008, 08:24
ATC at Chambery will only put one aircraft on the ILS at a time for this very reason, they also like the CTL as once the aircraft on approach is downwind for 36 they can get an aircraft departed, this slightly increases the flow rate.

Night is going to be interesting!

Pilot Pete
14th Jan 2008, 08:43
ATC at Chambery will only put one aircraft on the ILS at a time for this very reason Not true A and C. Happened to me the other day, it is currently in the hands of our Fleet Office who are going to speak to CMF ATC to find out what the cunning plan is.:ok:

PP

Edited to add

BOAC, wasn't you who had the unscheduled night-stop when the steps hit the leading edge on one of your 757s on Saturday was it?

bookworm
14th Jan 2008, 08:46
I'm not sure that turning toward the runway from downwind at LPMA is such a good idea, with the runway being so near the high ground.

With a good understanding of the obstacles, there's little doubt that a turn to sea is better. But I think the PAN-OPS principle still works -- there should be plenty of room for a right 270 degree turn at the circling MDA from any point right downwind.

The general principle is that the protected area is a circle(-ish) centred on the airport, thus turning towards the centre of that protected area is usually better than turning towards its edge.

BOAC
14th Jan 2008, 09:18
PP - no, me humble 737 driver, but I saw the (T/Edge) damage yesterday. Quite a gouge. Iron Maiden not best pleased.......................waiting for the new release "You broke my ship".

Actually the pax and crew were 'rescued' I think that night by another 757, so no snails and garlic for them.

We discovered that nothing larger than a Sprinter van can be driven through France on a Sunday which made getting a new aileron there a challenge.:)

Regarding LPMA, my brief (should I find myself up that street) is a turn left to join the VOR 05 g/a track UNTIL I am into the bay on final when I would (obviously) continue right.

CMF circling g/a is, to my mind, not a 'problem' as the turn is always towards the airfield which is in relatively 'safe' terrain, and awareness of your pos based on the CH is a good backup.

Pilot Pete
14th Jan 2008, 09:21
I'm not sure that turning toward the runway from downwind at LPMA is such a good idea, with the runway being so near the high ground. When you are downwind at LPMA for runway 05 you follow the missed approach until the missed approach point (downwind). After that point you have to decide how you are going to establish on that missed approach, probably with a left turn before the end of downwind and once you have started the turn towards GELO you need to keep the right turn going all the way around to intercept the missed approach course to FUSUL.

So it still follows the rule of following the missed approach for the instrument procedure you flew, just once again requiring a bit of thought as to how you are going to position the aircraft to safely establish onto this missed approach procedure.

PP

Edit

Crossing posts here I think! BOAC, yes of course it was trailing edge, I remember seeing the steps now and they were behind the wing. Bloody tall set of steps though, more like the ones engineers would use to reach the top of the wing, not sure what they were using them for, perhaps looking for de-ice requirements? Glad they got back home (I guess the crew probably would have preferred the chance of some French cuisine though)!

A and C
14th Jan 2008, 10:15
It is the first time I have been toldabout this and I think that it must be a mistake by ATC. please let us know what the outcome of the inquirey is.

I don't want to find myself head to head with another aircraft when doing a GA between the hills!!

BOAC
14th Jan 2008, 10:33
Apart from northerly winds, the circle onto 36 will be used when 36 is used for departure. In these cases the approach will normally be 'sanitised' for the departure. It will be a less common event that there will be a conflict betweeen circling g/a's and 18 ILS's. Still a possibility, though, and I too am interested PP in the reply to your company.

I would have thought that. in view of the procedure track, there was time in the event of a g/a from the 18 ILS to clear the approach?

Pilot Pete
14th Jan 2008, 11:26
BOAC

I assume you mean apart from southerly winds?

I am familiar with the departure whilst one a/c circles onto 36. My point is when flying the ILS to land on 18 and having another a/c coming down the approach behind you. During the day they will expect you to G/A into a downwind left hand visual pattern for another approach to RWY18. At night I can only assume they were expecting the same! Don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't be doing that in the dark!

I would have thought that. in view of the procedure track, there was time in the event of a g/a from the 18 ILS to clear the approach The problem is an engine failure. If that is the reason for your G/A I suspect it could be very interesting flying the missed approach and trying to out climb someone coming down the approach!!!!:\

PP

Farty Flaps
14th Jan 2008, 16:04
A and C.

I have no future.
I have applied to security at LGW though. Looking forward to a cheeky squeeze in the near future. Say Hi to the clock weights.

BOAC
14th Jan 2008, 18:56
No - I think I meant northerly ie you cannot land 18.

G/A into a downwind left hand visual pattern for another approach to RWY18. - that procedure is not in my current book nor in BA's book. I would be interested to know how you plan to circle below circling height as well?:confused:

Pilot Pete
14th Jan 2008, 20:06
BOAC

I read your comment as 'apart from when the wind is northerly, the circle onto 36 will be used'!!!:rolleyes: I see what you mean now.

that procedure is not in my current book nor in BA's book What, are you saying that you cannot do a G/A into a visual circuit? Are you saying that if you went around when visual you would ALWAYS have to fly a full instrument missed approach procedure or take radar vectors to have another go?:confused: I am only talking about a visual circuit, just like you did to get your type rating!!! Our CMF brief mentions that CMF ATC may expect this if you go around off runway 18, obviously only if you can stay below cloud! My point was that they had somebody coming down the ILS behind me (about 4 miles), at night, so I can only assume that they would expect me to go into a visual left hand pattern if I went around (but not something I would consider in the dark, hence my earlier comment that I have put it back into my Fleet Office's hands). We are not permitted to do night visual circuits in my company, only descend to MSA, then get within the defined circling area when we may descend to circling minima and perform a circling manoeuvre to land. The scenario I mention does not fit this criteria as we would not be starting off above circling minima necessarily.

PP

BOAC
14th Jan 2008, 21:16
During the day they will expect you to G/A into a downwind left hand visual pattern for another approach to RWY18. At night I can only assume they were expecting the same! Don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't be doing that in the dark!?- we are straying somewhat from the original question, but I took your words to imply that this was the 'expected procedure'. I would probably be happy to do it at night providing I am at or above c min and I have the necessary visual references IF the need arose - but when will it? As I said, neither BA nor current mention it. I am now getting quite confused with your company 'SOP' - surely flying a LH visual off 18 and then having to break it off downwind with another a/c on the approach is yet another self-made disaster waiting to happen? What are you going to do? I think I'll stick with the published g/a!

I will ask the company if they would consider including this procedure in the sim check (which includes circle 36) as 'expected procedure' and I think I know the answer! Do you practice this circuit in the sim? In view of your post, why would you not conduct a circle to land onto 18 at night at circling minima?

The g/a for engine failure you talk of - are you saying your SOP is to fly a visual circuit? :eek: If not, there is plenty of time for ATC to break off the inbound and send it around; there would be no conflict. I.E. No one to 'outclimb'.

Reel Marine
15th Jan 2008, 00:02
Remember, the circling approach that you practice in the simulator is just that, each simulator is certified for a particular circling approach and it doesn't mean that is the standard to apply in the real world.

In the real world circling approaches that I have done it was done in a non radar environment with others holding until you landed.

If the weather was a factor on your approach then we would request a straight out departure if feasible from ATC in the event of a missed approach.

But if you don't request it then you must circle back towards the instrument runway and fly that procedure which could be a handful on a A320 especially since you activated the secondary and now have NO MISSED APPROACH PROCEDURE in the box, woohooooo, good luck. Smart money pilots only activate the secondary when on short final:)

Pilot Pete
15th Jan 2008, 12:11
BOAC

We have been briefed that CMF ATC may well 'expect' you to turn left into the visual circuit in the event of a go around on rwy 18. Suffice to say we have a procedure to go around off an approach to rwy18 into a visual circuit. You don't. Yes we do practice it in the sim.

Just be aware that if you go around off rwy18 there may well be someone coming down the ILS behind you and that needs some consideration, especially at night and/or in cloud. I am not happy with that and hence my call to our Fleet Office.

why would you not conduct a circle to land onto 18 at night at circling minima? Never said I wouldn't, you have misinterpreted a visual circuit (from below circling minima) for a circling manoeuvre (started from at/above circling minima).

The g/a for engine failure you talk of - are you saying your SOP is to fly a visual circuit? No.

I think I will leave it there as we are straying well off topic now.

PP