U.S. ATC shortages; Already a Crisis?

[Jetwhine]

Since we have such an international audience here, I'm curious about the number of controllers your particular country seems to have vs. what they need.

I'm not a controller, but as a pilot, we are watching the number of close calls rise at an astronomical rate. (http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/01/faas-bobby-sturgell-needs-to-check-his-voicemail-now/) It seems the day is soon approaching when two of them won't miss.

You may have heard that we also have had a heck of a fight over the user fee system that many of your countries use. We almost seem to have beaten that back.

But the shortage of controllers - and the increasing pace that experienced controllers are leaving the system falls on dead ears and I can't see the link.

I know Americans - not all of us luckily - can seem pretty self involved, but do you think it is only that no one has made a monetary link to the controller shortage here that is keeping this from the front pages of action for our Congress?

Honestly too, it is reaching a point where I'm seriously concerned about keeping me from being front page news as one of the people who bought it a really preventable collision.

Any thoughts?

Jetwhine

[ferris]

Here in the ME, I would suggest that every station is a minimum of 20% under what they should have. The ANSPs have reacted, and are trying to address the issue in time-honoured fashion; throwing money at the problem. They have that luxury.

I haven't heard of many places in the world that aren't nearing critical staffing levels. The problem being that the management culture (seamingly worldwide) in recent years has been to try and screw every penny they can out of the system. That includes infrastructure, terms and conditions of employees, productivity, and most importantly training. The job just doesn't hold the appeal anymore, so both quality and quantity of applicants has declined.
So while the manager who has penny-pinched the most has been the golden boy of the day with the biggest bonus, the system has been relentlessly, inexorably, PREDICTABLY, grinding to a halt. I know where I was trained, people simply gave up trying to warn of this some time ago. The head hurt too much after all the fruitless banging against the productivity wall.
In Australia, there has been some media coverage of late, as large chunks of airspace go without a control service on a regular basis. Those same managers then claim they were unaware this would happen, and that it is not the result of mis-management!! (guffaw guffaw).

I can only suggest that you guys help yourselves, bite the bullet and stop covering your management's shortcomings. If you can't safely staff sectors/airspace; close them. I bet you might get some coverage (and, thereby, action) then. You can 'act as professionals' stretching and stretching for only so long, before you are really acting in the disinterest of both the profession, the industry, and the public.

Bring those who caused this situation to account.

[Track Coastal]

News interview re staff shortages at SoCal... http://www.10news.com/video/15025700/index.html




Scary numbers leaving indeed.

[Track Coastal]

Well he is 58, so maybe he is retired??

[Gonzo]

Jetwhine is a well-known aviation blogger, and former ATCO.

Click the link in his post.

[ferris]

Dude, you better chill out. You have completely the wrong end of the stick! I am very happy where I am, thanks.

My post was addressed to the thread starter. Is that not obvious? I was suggesting to him that the problems in the U.S.might be addressed in the manner mentioned. I cited Australia as an example where closure of airspace has resulted in press coverage, and sudden attention by those who can do something about it. I mentioned the ME was addressing staffing issues by throwing money around to attract staff (as you point out, quite rightly, Dubai {and to a lesser extent the UAE and Bahrain} has done). The airspace closures in Australia came about purely due to running out of staff. It was/is NOT orchestrated, industrial action, petulence or any other such thing. It is the result of relying on overtime to run regular service. You can only play that game for so long before the well dries up. Instead of using overtime as a stop-gap measure to gain breathing space to fix the problem, it became the ops normal. All the while the staff numbers continually bled away, with absolutely no plan to address re-staffing. It's now crunch time.

Is all that clear enough? In your haste to make my post into some sort of call to arms in the ME, you have made an arse of yourself. I learn my lessons. I don't expect an apology will be forthcoming, but I'm sure the wider audience can discern for themselves the intent of various posts here.


ps. I would love to go into a diatribe about managers, middle or otherwise, growing the balls to lead, rather than just "manage". I'll save that for a more appropriate time and place.

[divingduck]

If it wouldn't be too much trouble...could you possibly stick to the thread and not go off on another one of your Aussie bashing excercises?

Maybe I'm just stupid, but I completely understood what ferris was getting at, without all the subtext that you have picked up on.:ugh:

Must be fun around the coffee urn in OBBI...

Perhaps you could again be like your namesake...with thanks to Wikipedia:E

"The Bateleur is generally silent, but on occasions it produces a variety of barks and screams."

[ferris]

Sorry, but I just have to respond to your drivel, Batelco39.
No-one, absolutely no-one made this personal, except YOU. I don't care whether the wider audience listens to me, ignores me or whatever. Merely pointing out the wider audience can make their minds up about who was contributing to the threadstarters call for thoughts, and who was taking cheap shots and bemoaning that there is nothing that can be done!!
"No slight was intended"..could've fooled me. Perhaps your bitterness and lack of ability to climb the greasy pole is getting to YOU? BTW, you don't actually consider yourself management, do you? :rolleyes:
We've been a happy lot here where we work for a while now so really don't need that nonsense to cause the type of unhappy and suspicious work environment that you had in the UAE. Who is responsible for the culture of a workplace? The MANAGEMENT. Never, ever, denied I was a manager basher- but name one time when it wasn't warranted? Classic example you quote- rare for the managers actually accept responsibility for the work environment, except when it's going well! Nevertheless, still their responsibility.
And this gem...
the point I'm trying to make is that they have more chance of succeeding with your honest help rather than you just bagging them on anonymous forums and when they're out of earshot. I think I bashed loudly enough and long enough within earshot. As you said, where did it get me? There are plenty of people who do that in any workplace, and where does it get them? Look at the state of US ATC staffing. Do some research. How much more can NATCA do, how loudly, how often? How much more can the troops do to try and 'help' the management DO SOMETHING?
There are very few circumstances where ATC's have stood together in a solid unit to achieve anything. You really have been out here too long. In the wider world, it's not a matter of "standing together", the staffing levels are so critical that service can't be provided in places such as Australia. No "standing together" required.
There is always someone in our profession who is willing to sell his soul for a little more. That's the point, fool. THERE ISNT A QUEUE OUT THERE. Maybe if you had a look around, find someplace yourself where your jaded, bitter, management-apologistic stress might wash away. "Soft green grass, soft green grass". Jobs all over the world.

Take a moment to read back over the course of this thread, and see what a sad ba$tard you've become (even your countrymen say so).

Thanks DD- now back to the thread.....:hmm:

[ferris]

Yeah, well edit away. But your remarks were fairly and squarely aimed.

On topic
It has never been a satisfactory solution from a individual coalface ATC to shut down a sector or "go-slow" in response to a perception that management is not providing enough staff. I'm not sure how many times this has to be pointed out. I am certainly not suggesting this is the way to go. I am pointing out that in ATC, there is scope for 'stretching' of staff. This may take the form of operating with less than a full compliment on a shift (so that breaks are less), not providing leave (annual, long service etc) to actually having 'ghost' lines on a roster, filled by overtime (and many other forms of stretching). This 'stretching' only works with staff complicity. They can only be stretched so far, then they 'break'. I think that at numerous locations, that breaking point has been reached. Some managements are reacting- as in the ME, where salary increases have attracted bodies- some are not. Hence the threadstarter's lament about things in the US. When the controllers there have had enough of the excessive overtime, and the staffing becomes unsafe, then there comes a time when the professional thing to do is close services. It gets media attention, and isn't an 'individual action'. I think we've moved beyond the realms of industrial action in a lot of places.
There are managements who are actively looking to attract staff- Germany, Ireland, Eurocontrol, HK, the ME etc. The US isn't. Yet. As the hiring of experienced controllers is a rob-peter-to-pay-paul exercise anyway, I'll be interested to see when a management tackles the underlying problem.

As an aside: To all those 'managers' who rammed the 'global economy' down our throats (especially at EBA time in oz!!), well the chickens are roosting. Market forces, fellas, simple as that. Skill shortage= salary increase. Pay up. It was, after all, your idea.

[PMS]

DD and Ferris,

have to agree with you here, Batleur seems to have a chip on shoulder and a distinct distaste for Aussies. You kaffas are all the same I hate to say it and part of reason why it has taken so long for salaries to rise from the mediocre base they were at, because you lot would work for next to nothing (bit like mercenaries really) and would never rock the boat for fear of being sent back to good old SA:ugh::ugh:

get a life bucko, and chill out and f:mad:k off.

[Jetwhine]

I started this thread and honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing what the jousting is about. Part of the reason we're in the mess we are - as Ferris pointed out - is that we won't all stand together. Perhaps the comments are germaine to that perspective.

Of course, if the posts are offensive, then you as moderator are certainly on track to deep six them.

Just my 2 cents.

Jetwhine

[controllerzhu]

There are exceptions, but I believe in the saying that "You get what you pay for".. Where I work we are losing "CONTROLLERS" with 20 plus years experience and many could have remained up to five more years. But due to money...yes money (no chance of raises or movement to larger facilities for a raise) they are retiring and getting yearly raises in their retirement pay.
And me with 4 years to go till retirement must train daily personnel that have no or very little aviation experience. They expect theses trainees to certify in half the time and are cutting corners to make the numbers look good. I risk my career to allow a trainee to work on the radar when he or she should be seasoning on the assist position that they just certified on. I know that the pilots of this forum must notice the difference in service provided due to the increase in training at US facilities. I for one would like to apologize to the pilots that are delayed or poorly handled during theses difficult times.

CZHU

[rack 'n stack]

In Australia we to are short of controllers. The people who could have made a difference chose instead to ignore the situation until it has become critical.

Almost daily closure of airspace occurs due to the inability to have people come in to prop up the system.

Many Oz controllers are looking overseas after becoming dissatisfied with the current situation, those that are at retirement age are just choosing to leave. JW - i think the situation is universal as the only time you notice ATC is when it is not there!

[andrijander]

We are also shortstaffed in general too. I work at eurocontrol and,luckily, management has realised and we're trying to cacth up with demand. But next few years are going to be interesting (pardon the metaphore). I know DFS are also on the ball trying to hire direct entry controllers as they stopped some time ago with their ab-initio intake (we did lower it a lot and now we are trying to raise it again but unfortunately it'll take time before that has an effect: in average we turn someone from scratch into a controller in over 2 and half years)

Read some time ago overall europe lacks a 20% of controllers (unevenly spread through, some places more,some less) but in general was a combination of bean counting and the post 9/11 predictions (it wouldn't go up so much, the ciclycal trend in aviation till then, etc...)

Back to the oven now,
A.

[Jetwhine]

What is DFS?

[controllerzhu]

DFS is the (Deutsche Flugsicherung) and I believe was formed to privatize the German and mainland European ATC system known as EUROCONTROL.

CZHU

[PPRuNe Radar]

I started this thread and honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing what the jousting is about.

I have returned the deleted posts in all their glory. Enjoy ..... ;)

[RustyNail]

Maybe if the US opened the door to foriegn controllers they might be able to get some experience back into the FAA to replace what they are currently losing at a rapid pace.

Maybe if Eurocontrol did not discriminate against controllers from outside the EU (aussies, kiwis, canuks, seeth eefricans and others) they might also be able to stabilish their staffing levels and bring in some experience to their control centres.

Maybe if Hong Kong did not discriminate against experienced controllers (40+) then they might be able to bolster their controller numbers in the short term.

Yes, it takes at least 2 years to fully train an ab-intio student to licensed controller, preferable longer. In the past some companies have reduced ab-initio intake in an effort to reduce costs, looks good for the companies profits in the short term.
Fatal in the long term when they realise that they have a bunch of retirees coming up and they need replacement controllers, quickly, right now, where are they ?? 2 years to train some replacements, what, are you kidding me ??

But thats another story about HR and Bean-counters :(

[Yahweh]

Have to agree with rusty. I mean the job is the same the world over. It simply comes down to politics. Why can't we all just get along :E

[andrijander]

Well, it does stand for Deutches Flugsicherung but basically it is the german ATC provider.

Yes, granted, they have tried/would love to privatize fully even though the state still has control and they'd love to be able to take over europe (please leave aside the easy jokes).

Saint google and some knowledge of german should take you further ;)

A.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

My two cents( Euro cents of course)...
Since the same problem exists at many location all over the World not only in USA I would like to give my opinion .
We can't reduce time for OJT. We can't reduce requirements for initial selection . We can't reduce number of operation, because it is driven by some other players. We could make improvement in operational side of job but it couldn't work after some level of traffic.
So where is problem?And What are the solution?
I think that main problem is HR!
They are guilty for staff shortage. It is their task. Primary one. to predict number of staff and qualifications required for particular position.
I don't know why but HRD is the last one who knows that someone leaves company . They even don't realize that it will happen in future again.
And suddenly company stays without people.
Recently one HRM said( and stayed alive): What kind of problem with ATCOs?
We could find them whenever we want, for less money!
As long as they think such way there wouldn't be better !
I could write about HRDs hundred of pages but it is enough for this thread.

[slatch]

I see the current situation of the US ATC system to be something like the current Pilot situation. It is not so much a lack of people; it is a lack of competent experienced controllers that will become the problem. The FAA has proved they can hire all the people they need. They have set a system of schools graduating more than enough people to make up for the loses that are occurring. Combine that with the controllers coming out of the US military there is no lack of numbers. The problem is that there is little screening going on. After the strike in 1981 the FAA hired a large number of controllers, then, the percentage that made it from being hired to full performance in a center was around 20%. ( 50% washed out in OKC during initial training, 60% of those that made it to centers also washed out.) The CTI students have a almost 0% wash out rate in their schools, all they need is to show up. The FAA has a train to succeed attitude that just give trainees more time to train and allows them to memorize the sector so they can check out. The wash out rate is much less than it should be in my opinion. In our facility controllers with less than a year as a certified controller are giving OJT. While controllers with 10 to 20 years experience don’t train much because management thinks they are too hard on the trainees and are delaying certifications. Because of all of this, many controllers are making it through the system that would never have made it in the past. Throw in pay freezes, a generous pension plan (CSRS) for controllers hired before 1984, low morale and lousy working conditions, no wonder record numbers of controllers eligible to retire are leaving. I do believe retirements will slow down in 2009 when FERS retirement controllers start becoming eligible. FERS benefits are not as generous and many controllers will probably work extra years to build up their retirement.

[ferris]

By what you are saying, you should have all the bodies you need. Yes, you'll be having more incidents, experience levels will be decreasing, but the seats should be filled.
Everyone ( NATCA/Jetwhine/anyone you care to talk to in the industry over there) is saying that isn't the case? The incident rate is increasing, AND you are short of bodies?

[slatch]

There is no shortage of people trying to get the jobs and getting hired, we have over a 100 trainies in our facility. The problem is the training program is being mismanaged. There were years we had almost no trainies.. The current desire of management to get everyone through and the percived shortage has hurt training. It used to take around 4 years to become FPL. Now it is taking only 2 years for some. On the surface you say hey, that is great. The problem is the trainies are not spending enough time seasoning on sectors as associate controllers. When Trainies used to spend a year or so seasoning they were exposed to different situations and observed differnet controllers control techniques. This allowed them to gain some experiance. Now while being rushed through the program they train on one sector, get certified, season for a week or so and then repeat the cycle. What we get are clones of the training team with very little experiance. And when the training team are unexperianced controllers each generation is worse than the last. Hence the increase in incident rates. So what does the FAA do to make this work, they split sectors to make them easier, they require two controllers were one used to be fine. The FAA's failure to keep a steady stream of trainies over the years is the main reason behind this current situation. Sure they would have had a few years with more controllers than they wanted/needed but which situation is worse. There are enough controllers the FAA just fails to train them properly and put them in the right place making some facilities understaffed. NATCA, which i am a member, is a typical union, they say what ever suits their cause and twists the facts to suit their needs. They lost a major battle over the last contract and are doing whatever they can to try to make up for it. Bottom line is the FAA misjudged how many experinced controllers would retire in 2006, 2007 and probably 2008. They did not ramp up the hiring and training soon enough.

[KeepItRolling]

Slatch,

That sounds familiar.

ASA would be plesaed to know that their staffing solutions are "Worlds Best Practice".

:suspect:
KIR

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I guess a question that needs to be asked here is "Even if the US has enough people applying to be ATCOs to fill the gaps, would it be cheaper and more effective to poach some already qualified controllers from other countries who have suitable experience?". I don't know but if you factor in the wash out rates maybe it would make sense to import some guys.

Also for Rusty Nail, you may want to add the UK to that list of closed shop ANSPs. This has been discussed before on here and the response from the Brits was that they have extremely exacting standards and as such they can't take ATCOs from other places like Australia, NZ and Seffrica.

Not wanting to get knee deep in the handbags at thirty paces confrontation between Battler39 and the rest, but the initial post by Ferris made complete sense to me. That is there is a real (not percieved) shortage of controllers in Australia, resulting in sectors being without any Air Traffic Control service for whole shifts (take note that this is forced to be without, not without due to any choice made by controllers). He also says this has come about from the managers only caring about their next bonus objective and not about the troops they were supposed to be managing. He then says that the thread originator (an American working in America not the Gulf) needs to do the right thing if they are so short staffed that safety is compromised.

Clear to me, and I really don't understand the venom in the reponses. :ok:

[GetTheFlick]

That sounds familiar.

ASA would be plesaed to know that their staffing solutions are "Worlds Best Practice".

Of course it sounds familiar. Where do you think Bill Pollard learned it ? Back in 1981.... ?

I could have written what Slatch wrote. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I did -- back in 1985 or so. Give him another 5-10 years and he'll figure out the real meaning of "institutional memory." He'll also figure out it's real easy to lose. And once you do, it doesn't come back.

The Morning After (http://gettheflick.*************/2007/06/morning-after.html)

Here we go again...repeating history. :rolleyes:

[WhatUMean]

DFS a UK store that sells furniture and on permament sale that must end soon!