DFS-Germany Direct Entry Atco-Info please

[ock1f]

Hi All,
In flight international Dfs have placed an add looking for direct entry controllers with area or approach ratings. The jobs are advertised as permanent full time with a start date as soon as possible!

To any Dfs contollers out there or anyone else with solid information i have a number of questions. If for whatever reason you dont feel like posting in an open forum with your replies feel free to PM me.

1) Any idea of the experince required or is the bog standard 5 years they are all looking for?

2) Where are the area and approach centers located and what are the chances of being stationed in each one?

3) What are the medical requirements-class 2 or class 3?

4) Pay-What is the minimum and maximum a DFs controller earns?
-How many points on the pay scale and is there a career
progreesion?
- Average pay for a 10 year experienced area/app
-How is the pay structured-basic/bonus/overtime etc?

5) Annual leave entitlements-number of days per year/time in leiu for public holidays etc?

6) Duties and rosters-How many on/off days and night duties?

And finally-how is the industrial relations side of things? Are any newcomers going to land into a middle of union/management fight any time soon. How do the Dfs guys feel about the newcomers?

As you have guessed im interested! Can i thank you all in advance :D

Ock1f

[MUC ARR/DEP]

Hi!

only time for a short answer at the moment!

1) No idea

2) Centers are in: Munich, Langen (near Frankfurt), Bremen, Karlsruhe
cannot tell you anything about chances

3) medical class 1 on eyes and ears

4) around 7800EURO gross salary for a new licensed ATCO; after 11years 8500EURO

5) annual leave just re-negotiated. presently 29days.
about 5-8 days extra for pub. holidays compensation

6) in general 5 days on, 3 days off. just in negotiation but you can calculate with this.

7) ?????????

Where are you from? Why do you want to leave for Germany?

Greetings from Munich

[ock1f]

Hello mucc in munchen,
Thanks for the quick reply !
In response to your questions-my location at the moment is Ireland and the simple reason for wanting a move is a change for pastures new-pure and simple. There may a good few Irish looking into this as well as looking elsewhere too.

You sound slightly surprised that someone would want to move to Dfs- any reasons why?

Has the annual leave been negotiated to 29 days or is that likely to increase?

In Munich-nice place by the way-the 5 and 3 roster any chance of the start/finish time and any variations of.
Thanks again :D

Ock1f

[MUC ARR/DEP]

Hi!

not surprised, just interested!

The annual leave is 29 days and it looks like it increases soon. I can't tell you to what figures, as we are still negotiating. Maybe more in 2 weeks on this, if there is a consent at the end of negotiations.

the roster: 5/3 ... you start 2 days early, 1 early or late, 2 late (or 1 late 1night). time at work 8hours (2 1/2 break/recreation) makes 5 1/2 at the board!

cu

[ferris]

What sort of tax could be expected ie. what would the net salary be? Is that incl all extras (not overtime- just things like shift penalty)? What would one expect to pay for rent on a flat, and on a house?
I think ock1f is asking re 7) Is there any negative sentiment about foreign controllers joining? Is there any industrial relations issue/fight with management?

[Saigor]

Quote:

What sort of tax could be expected ie. what would the net salary be? Is that incl all extras (not overtime- just things like shift penalty)? What would one expect to pay for rent on a flat, and on a house?
I think ock1f is asking re 7) Is there any negative sentiment about foreign controllers joining? Is there any industrial relations issue/fight with management?



Well the tax depends on family situation. Wife and kids reduce your tax a bit, the 7800/8500 is without the extra pay for holidays and night shift.
To get a rough idea about taxes, I earn presently 8150€, after taxes about 5400€, wife and two kids. Depending on the night/holiday hours you can calculate with 300 to 600 € (tax free) on top. (almost 7€ per night hour, 50% extra on sundays, 100% extra on holidays, but often enough they 'move' your shift clear of that days, so you work a 5-3-5-2-5-4-5-3 shift)
Flats and houses is depending from location, most expensive in Munich (about a 650000 € for a house located in the subarbs, inner city is far more expensive, about 400000 € for a house in a village on the 'other' side of the airport, 60 to 80 km from Munich, rent differs between 600€ for a small flat, up to 1500€ for better area and more rooms, furniture isn't included.)
Bremen would be the cheapest location, about 30 or 40% of the mentioned rates above. Take a look....
http://immobilienmarkt.sueddeutsche.de/
Wohnimmobilien (mieten = to rent, kaufen= to buy)
a lot of the offers got a link called 'Umgebungsplan', if you click on it, you get a map with the marked object, zoom out and you get a good impression of the area. The airport (and the center Munich) is about 30 km to the NNE of Munich City.
(Wohnung=flat, Haus=house, Anzahl der Zimmer=number of rooms)


I guess no negative sentiment about foreign controllers to be expectet, as long as you don't bring hundreds of colleges with you and work for 60% of our salary ;)
And the industrial relations? hmm, since we just formed (=about 5 years ago) our own union, everything is getting better and better, slowly, often enough with some threats about industrial action by our side, but the situation is improving, at least the part which is defined in the agreements between the company and the union. On the other side the upper management regards the complete controller class as a bunch of unwilling, bored, overpaid, arrogant pain in the neck. They pay as because they need us - if they could get rid of us and could find a computer system doing the work, they would do it in lightning speed! I guess you get the picture...
Currently they are negotiations about working hours, holidays and so on in progress, as mentioned by MUC ARR/DEP in the posts above. And the next issues are already waiting - pension funding, and salary increase.......

and one guess by my side:
When I look at that add in the flight international, I guess most of the foreign controllers (if any) are going to work in Karlsruhe, at least the ACC rated.
APP-rated most probably Frankfurt (Langen) or Munich. But that's only a gut feeling....


Saigor

[Track Coastal]

Saigor and MUC,

Your replies are appreciated.

Saigor, on that income do you live reasonably well?

What about not speaking German? I understand you guys operate in English, but can an Australian or Kiwi expat get by socially until one picks up the language? (As in, we won't get ostracised, drinking beer with the locals is very much part of MY culture!)

Cheers,
TC

[rack 'n stack]

Hey guys

Wondering about the education facilities for non German speakers. My 11 year old would definitely be coming along if I were lucky enough to get a position. Does anyone know of a link where I could seek furhter information??

regards

[pdcta]

I can't find anything about the ATCO direct access in DFS... neither on the website neither on the web. Is DFS really looking also for non German-speaking ATCO? Any particular requirements or restrictions to apply? Where I can find all the informations? Thank you!

[Fox3snapshot]

The adds were in Flight International.....they responded straight away so I get the impression they really mean business :ok:

[SINGAPURCANAC]

on that income do you live reasonably well?
believe or not but be an ATCO ( espicially RDR rated) in Europe in most cases is good option. Even so many problems within ANSPs there is still huge queue in front of ANSPs doors.
My ANSP has the lovest salary in Europe but for 2 position appied 200 young people.
DFS has at least 6 times better salary than mine with some minor difference in daily life costs.
But holiday in Costa Rica costs the same.
also remeber that 1500EUR still represents good salary around Europe.
Of course some exceptions exists but roughly, RDR ATCO in Germany is :ok:

[the Shue]

Just a tip for those of you from primarily English speaking countries looking to go to Germany (or other European countries to work.)

You may be able to "work" in English but when you go to have your car repaired, go to the store to buy shoes, have to explain to the landlord about the problem with your heating, etc, etc, etc, you may have difficulties at times getting by with English only. Even the casual conversations at the position and in the break room will likely be just in German.

Also, don't treat going to Europe like a stint in the Middle East. If you think you can go to Germany for a couple of years for the experience, save a few bucks and then return home, it will be a very expensive experience. If you plan on going there, plan on going to live out your life there.

Personally I love Germany but would have to heed my own advice as my German is limited to "Hello", "Goodbye" and "What do you mean, my liederhosen is on backwards."

Anyways, just a thought.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

but when you go to have your car repaired, go to the store to buy shoes, have to explain to the landlord about the problem with your heating, etc, etc, etc, you may have difficulties at times getting by with English only.
Yes, it is the problem,unless you know Serbian, Turkish..In that case you don't need German for daily life. :ugh:

[The Euronator]

Try this link for the information

http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/job/air-traffic-controller-germany-operations-atc--10291552.htm

[!turnleftrightnow!]

@ singapurcanac:
1500EUR might represent a good salary around Europe! But surely not IN (western) Europe!!! You will survive with it...however you won´t have fun!

@ pdcta:
Hey good old coordination-friend on the other side of the Alps! Are you seriously planning to come over? You´ll be very welcome!

[MunichACC]

You can live reasonably well with a controller payment.

I have no idea, how living in Germany is, without speaking german. But many germans speak english well enough for daily business.

You won't have a problem finding people to drink beer with. We had some Irish Controllers in Munich, some years ago. They are still visiting us from time to time for the one or the other beer. :ok:

It might be that you have to be fluent in german for APP or lower ACC sectors, as we have some german speaking VFR traffic sometimes. But it might as well be, that you get german lessons payed from the DFS.

As for schools for the kids.. Perhaps you find some useful infos in the following link.
http://www.muenchen.de/Stadtleben/Education_Employment/School_Child_Care/37133/02aschools.html

[SINGAPURCANAC]

But surely not IN (western) Europe!!!
@Iturnleftrightnow,
If you read carefully my post it will help us. at first I said that there is an exception in both ways. But in Portugal,( there are the westernmost point of mainland Europe) 1500EUR is huge salary. 600EUR is more likely for many jobs.
Also in Norway 1500EUR will qualify you for social help.
The point of my post was that RDR ATCO in Germany will be able to have active and comfortable life.

[Saigor]

if you want to check the taxes and social security on your income in Germany try this link


http://www.focus.de/finanzen/steuern/gehaltsplaner

there you can enter your income (per month=pro Monat or per year=pro Jahr/ brutto=before tax or netto=after tax/ single (Steuerklasse I) or married (Steuerklasse III) and number of kids=Zahl der Kinder)
Bundesland (Bayern for Munich, Badenw. for Karlsruhe and Hessen for Frankfurt/Langen)
health insurance=Krankenkasse (privat most of the time for ATCOs)

and you get your income after tax (without extra pay for shift penalties of course)

and you can live with the money since you are way above the average income here in Germany. And yes, it ain't bad to speak a little of the language, but as long as you stay in the urban area you can survive with english alone. And you can ask for help anytime. We had some folks of Ireland working on a 5 year contract and I think they enjoyed the experience, maybe you find some of them to chit-chat a bit.

and further questions are welcome ;)
even via PM if you want to ask for something special or secret :oh:


Have fun

Saigor

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

The adds were in Flight International.....they responded straight away so I get the impression they really mean business

They responded straight away cos they know that when it comes to securing the services of Foxy they are in competition with about 23 other employers who have his CV. :E

Having spent a lot of time in Karlsruhe over the past 6 months I can recommend it as a really pleasant place to live. I found that restaurants could be a bit pricey (but I guess that is standard for Europe) but supermarkets and that sort of stuff were pretty reasonable. A lot of the people who work in Karlsruhe live over the border in France (about 30 kms) as the income tax there is less (not sure if that works for expats though).

Maybe in Munich or Frankfurt the lack of German may not be a huge deal socially as most people may speak English, but in Karlsruhe I found that a lot of the people were German/French bilingual and only those that needed English for their work spoke English.

Anyway just my 5 cents worth. Good luck.

[Fox3snapshot]

I found that restaurants could be a bit pricey....

That shouldn't be an issue on those generous travel allowances should it? :}

[Saigor]

@alwaysmovin (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=139760)

guess I'm getting old, memory isn't as good as it was.....


Saigor

[nodi]

Does anyone got any reply to the aplication? I know there has been only one week but still maybe they reply to someone? (Excluding the first reply that we should be patient and wait).
Thanks.

[Muriel]

Still not heard anything. I see they've advertised in Flight again this week. Anybody know what's going on?

[WhatMeanPullUp]

So is it true that Karlsruhe need in excess of 20 controllers or is someone telling me porky pies?????? :ok:

[foxyankee]

I think they´ll take everybody who is managing to get through the selection procedure. But I do not have any clue what this procedure will look like and how far the process of selection already had developed.

But: IMHO we actually need more than 20!

[Track Coastal]

we actually need more than 20!
Enroute or Approach?

[flightsearch]

karlrsruhe is only UAC

[pdcta]

Well, my friend... I really like Munich, you guys in Munich ACC and I also like the way we use to work together. So I would not be scared to move "up" there, and honestly I'm thinking about working somewhere else. Just for have some experience abroad.
You know, once with the European Licence would be great having the chance to transfer from a Country to another... also for a definite time and then choose if remain or coming back.
I'd like to work in Germany (but only if it's in Munich or Karlsruhe) otherwise try to apply for Maastricht.
I mean, Padova (or better, Abano Terme... where the ACC is located) is a really great place to live with really nice people: also at work. But... I'm still young without serious relationship so why do I have to stay where I am if someone give me the chance to improve myself, meet other people, learn other languages...??

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Interesting or not but DFS "refreshes" adv. on flightglobal yesterday.Now the first one on the list.
Since nobody has received further info from DFS except confirmation what kind of message is that? HRD of DFS is not satisfied with current applicants and now they are looking for better CVs or it is just bad coordination between departments?
Also my spies told me that DFS is looking for 200 ATCOs.
Anyone to confirm or explain what is going on.
Just curious!

[RheinControl]

Latest news from Karlsruhe UAC:

rumour says Karlsruhe has around 60 applicants from all over (even China or New Zealand) - most of them will be invited to an interview soon. And there's a good chance, they will hire at least 20.

And by the way, you don't necessarily need to speak German to come along. About 90% of the people speak English to some extent, French is spoken by half of them. There's even a European School (http://www.eskar.org) with Dutch, English, French, German and Italian sections. For the French native speakers, the Alsace is only across the River Rhine (around 30 minutes by car).

Hope to see some of you very soon...

[SINGAPURCANAC]

To be more precise APPROACH positions not ACC. Who cares about ACC?

[SINGAPURCANAC]

he Alsace is only across the River Rhine (around 30 minutes by car).
If it across river directly it gives me the next calculation:
-With average speed limitation of 40/60 kph at bridges it means that bridge is at least 20 km wide.
Correct me if I wrong but the longest river bridge in Europe is bridge over river in Lisbon . Only 18 km. So your bridge is 2 km wider at least.
Or you have to swim each time when going to France! :)

[!turnleftrightnow!]

Oh trying to be funny - are you?!
Over here we have things called traffic-lights....and lots of traffic!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

@!turnleftrightnow!
Of course ,mate!
This corner of Germany is very nice for living/working:ok: and lot of other things and places are within "walking" distance.

[goodworker]

It would be nice to work in a civilised nation, with a society not just an economy.

I was just going to resign my expert post, but I might just go the whole hog.

[elcrusoe]

Well its seems to me that this thread has died down a little so here we go just going to bring it back to life!!!!

Has anyone heard back from DFS yet? Or anybody working for the moment at Rhine radar here words or any news? I read they might invite applicants for the interview proces.....any news on that by the way.

And just a personal question how does the facility look like? Any chance it looks like Langen because i visited Langen awhile back before they included EDDF app in the mix and well i was really impressed by the equipment and layout. Really nice stuff.

My fiancee is german so an oppurtunity like this to get back over there would be amazing. I loved my time there and well the southwest is just a great place to be so close to everything.

Well life is restored to the thread!!!!!

[west atc]

I also put in an application a couple of weeks ago and haven't heard anything yet. Is there anyone in the know able to let us know what is happening with the applications? I know these things take time but the wait can be agonising at times! :ugh:

There are about 10 aussies who have put applications in so hopefully a few of us can get over there.

What is the golf like around Karlsruhe? It seems like there are a few nice courses, do many of the controllers play?

Thanks

West Atc

[!turnleftrightnow!]

Why is everybody in this forum so sure of ending up in Karlsruhe? As far as I know, the ACCs in Munich and Langen need "fresh meat", too.

[Saigor]

Because Karlsruhe (Rhein Radar) is Upper Airspace, therefore you don't need any German language skills. In the Lower Airspace (Munich and Langen, both have an approach as well) basic german language is (almost) mandatory, since our VFR Flyers may call in in German to cross some protected airspace or to drop some guys with a chute....

Saigor

[elcrusoe]

Well from my knowledge just like Saigor said german is a requirement fro all ACC type facilities in Germany. The only exception i could see would be the major airports but well then again i'm not quite aware of the operations but everytime i listened to Fra app it was most of the time in English but that is just the times i was able to listen.

However when you think of rhine radar well overall it is just like eurocontrol. All Eu members can apply since all traffic is conducted in the english language which makes things easier to find candidates.

So therefore of course when DFS opened slots for foreign controllers well everybody assumes that the placement will be in Karlsruhe or maybe Bremen (i think that is were the north UAC is right???).

But overall just by respect i believe that who ever applied for this oppurtunity should take in consideration that down the road an intensive class in German might be a good idea. It would be in my case....plus it would make the lady happy hehe

[!turnleftrightnow!]

@ elcrusoe

Once you decide to live in another country you always should be open to learn the language that is spoken there. You´d not just make your lady happy, but everybody else, too! :D:D:D

@ saigor

I remember that a part of the Irish bunch that went to Germany DID work in lower airspace, too! And none of them was fluent in German!

[pdcta]

Mmm... I'm really fighting with myself. Don't know what to do.
As I've already said I really like Munich, you guys in Munich ACC and I also like the way we use to work together. So I would not be scared to move "up there", and honestly I'm thinking about working somewhere else. Just for have some experience abroad. I mean... between Abano Terme and Munich there's only the Alps!!!!

[Saigor]

That's the reason for writing 'almost mandatory'.
But as far as i remember there was only one of the bunch of irish controller who actually got a license in the lower sector.
Anyone of that bunch may correct of course, been wrong on my first guess ;)

A bit of basic german would help anyway i think.

Saigor

[RobertK]

So therefore of course when DFS opened slots for foreign controllers well everybody assumes that the placement will be in Karlsruhe or maybe Bremen (i think that is were the north UAC is right???).
DFS maintains UACs in Karlsruhe and Munich, Bremen and Langen only have ACC and APP.
North-western German upper airspace is controlled by Eurocontrol at Maastricht.

Regards,

Robert

[spike_scramble]

What is the golf like around Karlsruhe? It seems like there are a few nice courses, do many of the controllers play?

There are a some very challenging courses within 100km. I know at least 20 colleagues playing golf, some of them below hcp -10 (me included :))
BTW there's a RR golf-team as well.....

Cheers

[JunkHole61]

RobertK-

Are the DFS approach control units physically located within the control centre buildings in Bremen, Langen, Karlsruhe, Munich and Maastricht?

Thanks in advance.

[Fox3snapshot]

Has a lot of good gen:

http://www.dfs.de/dfs/internet/english/index.html

:ok:

[RobertK]

Are the DFS approach control units physically located within the control centre buildings in Bremen, Langen, Karlsruhe, Munich and Maastricht?
They are located in the control centre buildings in Bremen, Langen and Munich. No approach units in Karlsruhe and Maastricht. :)

Regards,

Robert

[nodi]

Does anyone know what is the package they are offering? Medical ensurance, pension scheme, accomodation, salary (with kids) etc.?

[No Further Requirements]

If there is anyone in here working for DFS in Karlsruhe, could they please PM me. I have a few questions I'd like to ask.

Cheers,

NFR.

[west atc]

If there is anyone in here working for DFS in Karlsruhe, could they please PM me. I have a few questions I'd like to ask.

Cheers,

NFR.

Can you PM me too please, the interviews are about to begin and I would also like more info.

NFR, you got an interview? I know there is a few from MC who do.

West ATC

[pdcta]

In your opinion... a non-german speaking atco will be employed only in the UAC? Or maybe there's the chance to be assigned also in Munich?
I mean... I work in Abano Terme and during the summer I go to Jesolo... both places are full of blonde german girls... something I've learned!!
Habt ihr einen Zigaretten? Und Feuerzeug? Danke! Du bist schon! Ich liebe dich!
Is that enough??????

[Saigor]

almost ;)

but as far as i know, only Langen and Karlsruhe are open for the direct entries.

Saigor

[Quokka]

pdcta,

From my lovely blonde Deutsche Freundin...

"this little little german might not be enough....aber schonmal sehr gut! :-)viel glueck. sometimes you dont need to talk... :rolleyes: "

[nodi]

Has anyone had an interview yet?
Mine is next week? What are they asking , what to expect? Any infos please?
Thanks.

[elcrusoe]

So just curious if anyone has some news from the front line?.......Any news out of the facilities or well does anybody else have any useful information about the situation? Anybody know the exact numbers they are looking for?

And well good luck to everyone that applied and i hope for the best for all of you. I'm sure DFS will be a great place to work and i already know by experience its a great place to live.

Thanx people!!!!
Take care

[bright73]

Has anybody had their phone interview yet? I had mine and it seemed as though i was being recruited for enroute/approach at Langen!

[Number2]

Had mine yesterday. Exactly the same feeling I got. 25 to Langen and 15 to Karlsruhe was what I was told. They were definitely pushing me towards the low-level sectors!

Not really what I was expecting/wanting.

[viaEGLL]

Number 2

DO you have to speak german? Salary details if you have them please! Pm if you would prefer Cheers!

[Number2]

I don't mind being public......I don't speak German (seemed to be a problem to the interview team - which I understand). They talked about attending the College at Langen for 5 months to do a low-level course.

To be honest, I didn't feel that a discussion about salary was appropriate at this juncture. An assessment day at Langen was mentioned.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

for 5 months to do a low-level course.
Isn't it too much for direct entries?
5 months in school plus pre -OJT , than OJT,than an examination process.
UF! It sounds like 12 months,before full salary!

[ZeBedie]

Just noticed the title of this thread: Whereas an ATCO is a person who stops aeroplanes bumping into each other, an Atco, is a lawnmower ;)

[Number2]

'It sounds like 12 months before full salary!'

Tell me about it!!!!

Like I said before, not what I expected at all.

[!turnleftrightnow!]

I can´t tell you anything about the pay conditions etc.
But I know that you won´t get bored at the academy! You´ll be introduced to how wonderful the DFS is, to its philosophy and German laws (and we have lots of them!!!). And for those who will get jobs at Langen I wouldn´t be surprised if you´d get some German language courses. Especially in German phraseology. That´ll be enough since there´s not too much German speaking traffic on ATC-frequency.

And after that you´ll spend some 2 months in the simulator in order to make you familiar with local procedures. Believe me! You won´t get bored!
:8

[FUN.LEVER.FORWARD]

With all that training why do they want experienced controllers? With 5 months in the classroom, including two months in the sim, then 5-6 months OJT I could train a keen student straight off the street.
I also hope the 'rumour' of training pay until validated is just that, a rumour. I would think it very unlikely that someone already employed by DFS would revert to training pay if they were to transfer from say Bremen to Karlsruhe. So why then should direct entry experienced controllers be fiscally penalised?

[RobertK]

With all that training why do they want experienced controllers? With 5 months in the classroom, including two months in the sim, then 5-6 months OJT I could train a keen student straight off the street.
Classroom, sim and OJT take about 3 years for ab initio trainees here.

Regards,

Robert

[FUN.LEVER.FORWARD]

Hallo RobertK

Did I read that right??? You're telling us that from the day a person walks in off the street into the classroom at Langen until the time they talk to an aircraft on their own licence takes three years:eek: In my experience it usually takes one year to train a tower controller, 14 months for an area controller (I will not say where, as I'd like to stay incognito, but a very complex ACC). For experienced overseas controllers it will take anywhere from 3 months to 6 months depending on the sector/s including sim and classroom time, it usually can be sooner but minmum training times are set down for the various validations. I'd be interested what the times are in other places...

As you work there, or close by, can you tell us whether internal transfers, ie Langen to Bremen revert to training pay until they validate in the new ACC?

Danker

FLF

[Number2]

Is there supposed to be an R at the end of Danke - I must brush up on my German!!!!

I'm interested to see how far and wide the applicants come from? The majority from Europe I assume (maybe wrongly?)

[!turnleftrightnow!]

#2 you´re right!!! It´s DANKE!!! No R in it! :8

Ab initios spend 1 year in the classroom, half a year in the sim and then another 18 months (maximum) in OJT. Experienced controllers will most probably need 6 to 10 months in OJT to get fully validated.

Nobody ever said that German airspace is easy to get familiar with!

[foxyankee]

I rarely seen people needing only 3 years!

Most of them take a longer time until all licences are achieved!

But everything between 3 years and almost 4 years is a good value to calculate with for ab initios!


You are getting new, ready-to-work ATCOS in one year???!!!
Hm.....that is why some in DFS are thinking of good assements. Not every controller is able to cope with the central european airspace, it is definetly the most complex one in Europe. I have no idea about the amount traffic in other parts of the world, but central Europe with all its hubs is not easy to work and they (DFS) made experience in former times with ready entries (at least at Karlsruhe UAC): Only a very few made it!

Good luck to all - do your best! We´re waiting for you!

Only 2008 until this week in average 8,6 % more traffic (only for UAC, lower sectors not as much as here) in respect to 2007!

FY


Edit: If a ATCO changes the center, he will get the normal salary! No downgrading during training!

[Surferboy]

Slightly offtopic @ FLF: In The Netherlands training for from Ab-initio to fully licensed is at Tower/Approach about 4 years, and for Area about 2,5 to 3 years!

[INCA9]

So with all this talk about going back down to training salaries whilst validating, does anyone actually have any idea what that salary would be??????

[foxyankee]

I can´t imagine, that you´ll get paid the trainee-salaries!

That is inappropriate!

[INCA9]

Yes I agree, I certainly wouldn't expect to drop back down to the same salary level as an ab initio trainee.
But, that said, I'm guessing there will be some form of reduced pay structure until you actually validate. Obviously at this stage of recruitment it's distinctly bad form to start asking your interviewers about salaries so I was wondering if anyone already working there had any idea what the pay structure would be, or if anyone has dared to ask during the telephone interviews??!!

[Number2]

Any other feedback from the interviews?

[AlexCartman]

With all that training why do they want experienced controllers? With 5 months in the classroom, including two months in the sim, then 5-6 months OJT I could train a keen student straight off the street.In addition to what my German colleagues have already stated, DFS is faced with the problem that they don't get enough applications by ab initio trainees. I don't know exact figures but say you need 10000 applications to actually find 100 suitable candidates, and you only get 5000 applications in the first place, then you need 50 ready entries to make up for that deficit.

From what I hear DFS needs about 300 additional controllers over the next couple of years.

[Towerantje]

Or maybe there's the chance to be assigned also in Munich?

Munich ACC is looking for direct entries, too. Especially when familiar with the south-area (Austria, Padua, Swiss).

Munich APP also needs staff.

Just ask for it in your application.

And about the social contact in Munich: we had a very good time with our "guests" from Ireland, working here till 2004. And we are still in contact!!!

Try it. Good luck!

Antje

[pdcta]

Is there a deadline on CV submission?
I think I'm going to apply. This kind of application makes me crazy. I mean... I prefere to fill a form instead writing a CV: I have nothing to write on it!

[elcrusoe]

Just curious to see if anybody got word back from the HR office yet....

Thanx,

PN

[Blockla]

I understand some Aussies have some testing scheduled...:}

[west atc]

I can confirm that I have been invited for testing, I was given a choice of dates to pick from, the first is the 24th and 25th April. It appartently will involve sim testing, another interview and a medical.

Still no idea what the package will be as yet, but if they want my services they will have to make it worth my while! :}

[Number2]

Oh well, I guess they didn't appreciate my 'honesty' after all.

Where to go next I wonder?

[elcrusoe]

So do we receive sth either way....."positif or negatif" or do they just sent sth if they are still interested......just trying to get an idea


thx

[pdcta]

My German friends... a little ot question: what's the "German Corner"??

[Saigor]

KRH Radial 270 DME 12


KRH = Karlsruhe. An inofficial point used as a short cut...

Take a look:

http://www.wimo.de/sbs-1-ss3.htm


Saigor

[pdcta]

Ok... I see.
It was a strange request by Swiss for a traffic going northbound. So it's not identified with a fix, rnav point or something similiar?? You tell a pilot "clear direct to German Corner" and everybody know that they have to fly to KRH 270/12?? Cool!! I've learned a new direct!! TGO or KRH are getting boring!! :D

[elcrusoe]

So did everybody get an answer after there interview yet or what is the deal????

[EDDM-ATC]

german corner is in most boxes...try KRH12 ;)

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Dear DFS colleagues,
Terms and conditions for available positions, not radials and DME distances ,if any! :ugh:

[Saigor]

do you, as a controller, know all the details about terms and condition, packages, training schedules and so on, which may be offered to direct entries of another country, if it is the first time your company would do that on a larger scale?

Well, I don't know any details, heard some rumors, but lacking any facts.

But DME and Radials - that's something I know.

And even the known facts about the direct entrys are changing from week to week. As an example, first all Units needed some new controllers, and all of them should get some. Later it changed to Karlsruhe and Langen only. In the meantime I learned that Munich will get some of the direct entries as well.

If you are looking for details about terms and conditions offered, ask the DFS, and IMHO don't be shy about it. To change the country (or even the continent) is a large step for anybody - therefore it could be impolite to ask about money, but it is a necessity to know some details like future income.

Greetings

Saigor

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Hi Saigor,
I had no idea to be rude.
regarding direct entries,I believe that there will be the same T&C as for "locals" . I do not believe that your union or associations will accept anything else.
It means, excellent T&C,
Best regards

[Saigor]

no prob, I would be interested in details as well. And I would be pleased to give details to you (or the other possible ready entries), but I don`t want to talk rubbish. So the best choice is to shut up about details.
And a strong union must not work in favour of ready entries, because a high number of ready entries would shift power to the employer. They won't accept bad conditions but they have to honour
the time in the company of the 'older' controller. As an educated guess, a ready entrie would get a lot more money as a normal trainee, but not as much as a rated controller. But that's only a a guesstimate.

And it's one union www.GdF.de (http://www.GdF.de) , still with some eggshells behind the ears, but strong from the beginning.....

And I would be pleased to welcome some ready entries in Munich, improves the flair ;)

Saigor

[SINGAPURCANAC]

@ saigor,
thanks for reply,but did I tell you about my level of German language?
Ein Warsteiner,and so on:) trough :ptill :mad:

[elcrusoe]

Hi,

Has anyone heard more news about what they will be offering as a final package?

I heard some people got a further invite, sadly i have not received anything so i'm afraid my chance is up.....too bad....i would have enjoyed being back in Germany.

But i wish the best to the other candidates and well will remain interested in the offers that may be granted.

So i hope you guys will keep the rest of us in the loop.......thanx.

[eagleflyer]

e.g. normal pay according to DFS payscheme. I don´t know about a retirement packag though. From age 55 till retirement it will be the same as the "German" controllers, e.g about 70% of last pay. This is called "Uebergangsversorgung". I think the actual retirement payment by DFS depends on how long you have been with the company, but that´s just an educated guess.

I would say that if you´re young joining DFS is certainly no mistake...unless you work for EUROCONTROL or Honolulu Approach. We complain a lot but having read pprune for a couple of years now I come to the conclusion that management sucks everywhere....

I got the information that one course is scheduled to start in June, another in September. Personally I would say this will be postponed by at least three months because no one has a contract yet as far as I know.

If you want to follow discussions among German controllers try www.atcnet.de but don´t take everything seriously there!

[foxyankee]

Any news out there?

No contracts at all yet, they told us.....

[elcrusoe]

Hey,

Its been awhile since the DFS advertised some opening slots......so what is the news from the chosen ones hehe? What kind of package are they going to offer?
I hope for those that are chosen that they offer you a basic german class in the package.....on top of other things.

But anyway let us unlucky but still interested ones know of the outcome.....it would furfill my curiosity and many others on pprune as well.


Thanx

[sihame]

Hi, I can't start a new thread for some reason so I'm using this post.
I am a French ATC trainee doing a thesis about the status of ATCs overall Europe. That's why I need some information about DFS, especially about your school in Langen. I don't know if it's a secret school but we can't find any information about it. :}
So if a German ATC could remember his time in Langen it would help me :)
First of all, how was the exam to enter the school ?
Then what was the salary while there?
Anything you could remember from your time in school would be nice too.

Another question even if it's not related, I can't find the age of retirement for ATC in belgocontrol, if a nice Belgium controller could answer me ...

Thanks in advance !

[Saigor]

Hi sihame,

first of all you have to fullfill some requirements, about school grades, age and so on. If you pass that one, a test by the DLR will follow, two days with computer tests for memory, english, dimensional awareness, concentration. Hard time....
Thereafter, one day with some more sophisticated, more ATC related test, a bit of assesment center (to check the ability of team work).
Fourth day is another english test, if I remember correctly an interview of about half an hour in english, medical exam and on the fifth day a psychologic evaluation up to 2 hours (the last two days are open about the sequence, depending on the number of test persons)

Money at the academy is about 600 €, but I wouldn't bet anything on that number ;)

Other memories? Lot's of learning, lot of fun. Good time there but as well good to be in a real working position after that time. Best of it been the Sim.....

Have fun

Saigor

[RobertK]

Money at the academy is about 600 €
Currently 766 € gross, which is about 500 € net.

Lot's of learning, lot of fun.
Still the case, at least from what I can see halfway through the course. :)

Starting with theory only (about four weeks), then theory and sim alongside, with ever increasing sim portion.
Starting in June, we'll have mostly sim for the remaining 8 months, which everyone is looking forward to.

No additions wrt the testing in Hamburg, however, the school grades requirement has been lifted.

Regards,

Robert

[sihame]

Thank you very much for the answers, we really appreciate it !!

By the way, we are still looking for the age of retirement at Belgocontrol !!!

Tomorrow will be too late !! ;) It's not a joke, we'll hand our thesis back tomorrow

[west atc]

Interesting to see that the Germans have advertised again (about the 5th time I think) on Flight Global.

Has anyone actually accepted a contract yet?

I know of one aussie who turned the contract down, even compared to Aussie dollars the amount wasn't worth it.

Wonder if they will up the amount they are offering, might the only way to get people over there.

[eagleflyer]

DESPERATE! I´m sure they will eventually make it a good package, because DFS needs you, and yesterday wouldn´t be soon enough. I´m just not sure if management also sees it that way yet! :rolleyes:

[elcrusoe]

Does anybody have info on the package or what is the deal......Does anybody know if somebody has already been selected and if so do they have a start date.....?

I think the DFS might be looking for to much experience but will not pay the price to get it.

To bad the DFS wasn't more interested in me since i have other reasons i would like to be in Germany but oh well......maybe in the future.

[Saigor]

at least three got an offer in munich (maybe more, but three are for sure), start date end of 2008, nothin' about the package.....


Saigor

[126,7]

I know of 3 that are going to Karlsruhe. Package seems to include a salary which is on par with the number of years for which you've held a license. Moving costs are also covered. Don't know of any additional monies.

It also seems that DFS head office lays down a basic package and every applicant negotiates with the unit of his choice for a better deal. Seems the individual units are very flexible, depending on how badly they want a person. If you are a weak negotiator, you don't get much.....If you pick a unit that's not too keen on offering more or doesn't want to upset the local controllers by giving you a salary which you should be entitled to(ie. slot you in on a training salary), you should maybe try a different unit/centre.

[elcrusoe]

Thanx for the info!!!!!!

I would love to reapply hehe to bad 2 years haven't gone by yet so i could maybe have a better chance....

It would make my trips to Germany easier hehe.....

but once again thanx again to the local controllers for keeping there ears open and writting to the rest of the world on here about the situation!!!!

[AvEnthusiast]

What's the creteria? which nationalities?

[126,7]

Don't think it matters what nationality you are.
Criteria would be more or less as follows:
Below 37ish (am guessing here) and busy sectors at your present place of employment.

That would be it I think.

[Fox3snapshot]

Nope definitely guessing, 39 is doing fine too....;)

[RheinControl]

126.7:
it DOES matter what nationality you are - DFS prefers European controllers, because their licenses can easily be transferred into a German one.

In addition to that, you have to fulfill some requirements to receive a Security clearance which you need to have regardless of unit. That means, citizens of certain countries (e.g. some former Soviet Republics and some middle east and far east contries) will not be considered by DFS because of their heritage - it is sad, but the rules are made by the government and I guess, other countries have similar laws.

Hope to see some of you guys soon here in sunny Karlsruhe :-)

[bruman]

retirement age at Belgocontrol is 55:ok:

[126,7]

RheinControl
Yeah, I know about your company's or your government's feelings about eastern European ATCOs. Especially the two foreign chaps you have in Karlsruhe. The government didn't treat them too nicely did it? Maybe DFS should rephrase their little advert in flight global to say that ATCOs from questionable countries need not apply. But then they should also state which countries they see on that list....

Job Position: Permanent
Location: Germany
Job Hours: Full-Time
Job Role: Air Traffic Controller
Company: DFS Deutsche Flugsicherung GmbH
Posted Date: 13 May 2008 10:30:47
Air Traffic Controller - Germany - Operations & ATC

Air Traffic Controller in Germany
Company: DES Deutsche Flugsicherung GmbH
Job role: Air traffic controller (m/f)
Job position: Permanent
Job hours: Full-time
Starting date: As soon as possible
The German air navigation service provider (DFS) is looking to recruit air traffic controllers holding an air traffic controller licence with an approach or area control rating.
To apply for this position, please send your CV via by clicking the apply button below


Funny how either DFS or Flight Global misspelt their company name. DES?? :ok:

[djalminha]

Hi,

has anybody signed a contract yet ?

Good lucky to everybody how wants to join DFS !

[kosamena]

hello people... i find this forum very exciting to read, thanks to all who are making this contributions. I also made an attempt to the DFS and they said I wait they will get back to me. Those who have gone through, what questions do I expect if am called for the interview?
And to my would-be-colleagues ( if i make it) in Germany, is there any racial discriminations ?
I have alot of warmth towards Germany.
:ok:

[eagleflyer]

from somebody who should know them: DFS wants to pay you around 56k€ (numbers always plus about 10% for nights, holidays etc) in training but is apparantly willing to negotiate that figure because they will obviously not get people for less than they earn now. It´s what they pay OJTs just out of school.
Once you´re fully licensed you´ll get what everyone else gets, i.e. starting at roughly 91k€, after eight years maxing out at about 108k€.
Also I´ve heard about a relocation package and support for the rest of the family (language courses etc).

The new shift scheme(s) are not yet agreed upon.

@kosamena: There´s no racial discrimination at work, I´m sure of that! Outside you might run into one idiot or the other, but it´s probably not different from anywhere else in the world.

[SM4 Pirate]

DFS wants to pay you around 56k€ (numbers always plus about 10% for nights, holidays etc) in training but is apparantly willing to negotiate that figure because they will obviously not get people for less than they earn now.Amen brother, most people won't be moving for the opportunity alone, they need to put some cash incentives.

Once you´re fully licensed you´ll get what everyone else gets, i.e. starting at roughly 91k€, after eight years maxing out at about 108k€.
Also I´ve heard about a relocation package and support for the rest of the family (language courses etc). Not exactly record breaking pay there, nothing like Eurocontrol, or the Middle East salaries especially when you factor in taxation.

We have heard they are desperate because of sector moves into Karlsruhe, is that right? If so they'll need to make it financially attractive to get the people they really need and want.

[hermy1]

I'm going to lay it all on the line. I am a south african with 5 years approach control experience. I have no clue about cost of living in Germany but am considering taking a contract with DFS. Please tell me what you think of the following:
Training salary 2920 Euro per month.
Family to stay back home for at least 6 months while I begin training!!
Will pay 1500 Euro per family member for language course.
4970 Euro per month once I get my first sector license.

[FUN.LEVER.FORWARD]

Are those figures net or gross? Well actually it doesn't matter as they are pathetic either way. Have you negotiated on the pay, apparently each ACC is able to negotiate according to experience?
With the Middle east desperately short of controllers, and wiling to pay approx 9500 euros net a month (Abu Dhabi/Dubai/Bahrain) then the DFS needs to up the ante.
For me to be interested, and yes I am in negotiations, they need to be offering 6000+ after tax, and around 15000 for relocation including estate agency fees.

[eagleflyer]

I guess there´s no way to be offered more than 7200€/month before tax because that´s what fully licensed controllers get after their last checkout. Even if add the 1,1 months extra pay per year and about 500€ tax free per month for holidays, nights etc you will come nowhere near 6000€+ after tax in your first year.

As a single I got almost exactly 72.000€ net for 2007, being fully licensed for seven years.
If you´re married the figure should have been around 80.000€....but then it might be worth less than half! :E

@hermy, I wouldn´t start the training for 3000 a month. You are fully licensed elsewhere and are far more experienced than a new guy fresh from shool, hence you should be worth a little more. Just remember, as a single 3000 a month will be around 1700€ after tax and social security fees, plus maybe 250€ shift allowance. Say you´ll be at 2000€ net...it´s ok, but it´s not plenty!
A two-bedroom appartment will easily cost you around 800€, gas is around 1,50€/litre today. Go to an Italian restaurant and you´ll pay at least 10€ for a pizza and a beer.
I would try to negotiate a better deal, don´t let them forget that other outfits are searching too and offering more!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

two-bedroom appartment will easily cost you around 800€,

a friend of mine living in town(vilage) the nearest to the Munich airport.She pays 800Eur ,electricity,gas,telephone and other costs not included. She has good job but she is not able to live much closer to Munich because are rents higher. Things may vary from town to town but 2000Eur/m net salary for expats are just on the edge. You wouldn't be candidate for social help but experienced ATCO will face with lifestyle "reduction''. Especially if you your previous unit is one of those that DFS wants.
There is no too much high unit performance rate with low level salaries.
If you add BigMac theory I do not believe that anyone will find this offer competitive.
Job in Germany may be interesting for some people but salary sholdn't be primary reason.

[Jat Jet]

where do controllers stay? How far is that from Langen? Any idea when they are starting the course? Will the offer provides a dceent lifestyle from German standard or is it not enough? I have my wife and a kid to accompany. How to find apartment on internet?

[eagleflyer]

the pay after full validation will give you a decent lifestyle. The controllers working at Langen live all over the place. Some live in ATC City (Langen) and commute by bike, others prefer to live pretty far away (because it IS nicer) and travel by car or train. Driving is usually no problem, there are no jams at six in the morning or nine in the evening.
If you want to have a look at houses / appartments try www.immobilienscout24.de .

Cheers,
eagleflyer

[Jat Jet]

Thanks a lot Eagle flyer. What about other issues that one may encounter after shifting to Gremany. How are the controller reacting to it-- with suspicious or welcome or just indiffirent. i dont want to look like aliens. I think Langen sud be good place to live.:)

[indien]

Hi everyone,
It looks everyone has forgotten this thread and DFS has forgotten its candidates. It is interesting to see that DFS is still advertising for direct entries in flight global.
I am looking for help from the people at Langen. The problem is that I succcessfully completed the assessment at Langen. Thereafter I was told that security clearance will take approx 2-3 months. Despite lots of reminders it has been nine months and I am yet to hear from DFS. It appears to me that either my case is lost between two governments. But what really worries me is that I checked from Authorities/German Embassy at my place and they have not received any request for my security verification.My requests to the HR are simply stonewalled that they cant to anything in this regard.
Did anyone joined at DFS at Langen? I have heard few joined at Karlsruhe. The uncertainity is very furstrating:ugh:
PLEASE ASSIST:)

[AlexCartman]

I work at Langen. If you still need help, drop me a personal message through the forum I'll see what I can find out.

[Supertoad]

Has anyone been offered a job as TWR only? I can only see on this thread posts about radar positions. Anyway, for those who have been offered a contract and who have a family, did all of you get german courses for your whole family paid for by DFS? Also, what about the time you need to spend at the academy, please tell me that all lessons are in english.

[wiloc]

I have also been offered a job as a TWR controller with DFS to start at the Academy in January. I´m supposed to reach level 4 German before that time. My understanding is that the course will be taught in German language and not in English :rolleyes:. so I should go practice my German ;).. Toad PM me if you have any further questions, are you scheduled for same course ?

[Obsidian09]

Did you ever hear back from DFS?.....I am being considered as well...just curious as to how long everything is taking. :hmm:

[Alivebas]

Hi all,

I'm still in for the Radar Approach/Area course, in Langen, probably only in may or june 2010 due to commitments to my current employer.

I was wondering though, can anybody confirm the language spoken in classes ? I thought it was English, and that you'd have to learn German while studying there. I'm brushing up my German already, but you got me wondering now.

Anybody currently in Langen or already training in the centers who can confrm this ?

Thanks boys and girls.

[ozineurope]

Alive

Lessons are supposed to be taught in English. If you are a native English speaker this will happen and you will most likely be grouped with 2 or 3 others on the course. There are a couple of RE guys going thorugh at the moment and they have lessons taught in English, sim in English and are being given an intensive German language course. You will have 14 months (depending on whta your contract says) to acquire Level 4 German.

There are a number of expats as instructors at the Academy now so all will be good and the German guys are a great bunch who will teach in English!!

[Alivebas]

Thanks for the info Mr Oz in Europe, much appreciated.
That's the information I got from DFS as well when I was over there for testing.

[Supertoad]

I am also joining DFS and as far as I understand for ATCOs working lower airspace and Tower obviously, where the likelyhood of getting VFR pilots who can only speak German is high, applicants need to achieve level 3 before joining and then level 4 at validation stage.

[bobesko]

Anyone tell me what is the sallary while you are in testing or schooling for area controller and how long does it take you to become a full status worker?Controller from eastern europe.Thanks:ok:

[prascho]

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/366329-starting-dfs-june.html#post4802818


dont be lazy, read from the beginning:E

[fremen]

Hello to all of you!
I would like to ask if someone knows what is the situation in Germany about working at TWR, because I'm an ATCo with APP/TWR license, but without radar license and that's why I'm really interested ( at least for the moment, till I'll get a radar license, maybe in Germany, why not? if it's possible ) about Tower situation in the beautiful Germany ( I have an uncle in Dusseldorf and visited Germany for a couple of times ). I am almost 30 years old and almost 3 years experince as an ATCO, open-minded to learn and to progress.
Thanks in advance for any good helpful advice!:ok:

[SweAtCO]

Hello everyone!

Bumping this thread a bit since i recently got interested in working for DFS. The add in flightglobal is gone but the same info is found on the DFS homepage. Does anyone know what the situation is like? Still haven't heard a word in reply (two weeks and counting).

Anyone making a direct-entry lately?

[sonicATCo]

4 weeks and counting...
I've sent them my CV and a copy of my ATCo licence almost a month ago and still no reply. :uhoh:
So much for german efficiency:D

[SweAtCO]

sonicATCO, any words? I'm closing in on four weeks of complete silence...

[StoffeA]

I'm coming up on 6 weeks now!

[SweAtCO]

Got the reply as of today!

[sonicATCo]

I'm still waiting for my reply!

What did they say? Are they hiring?

[SweAtCO]

They seem to mean business. Got two pages of personal information and workrelated questions. Also to send in copies of license,radio cert
Etc.

[GELOFAB]

Could anybody working in DFS please give an idea of pension conditions/entitlements/benefits with DFS. Many Thanks in advance.

[Lon More]

Re the language problem; Maastricht UAC controls the UAS over NW Germany. It was a requirement that we obtained German R/T licences although there was never any mention of doing German language R/T nor of coordinating in German

[TrafficTraffic]

Was it Celtic or Keltic that was your first language Lon?? ;);)

TT

[Lon More]

grunt


what language did your criminal ancestors speak?


Merry Christmas to you all BTW from a snowy limbabwe

[Greebson]

Ive not read through everything, but Ive heard there are positions vacant in the DFS school of air traffic control,
If there is any chance of a PM, because I cannot find details anywhere, I'm a qualified approach and tower ATCO and am very interested,

[SweAtCO]

Hello everybody!

I'm wondering if anyone recently have or is about to join DFS as an direct-entry? I would be very interested to hear about what you've been offered. I'm currently in contact with DFS regarding a position and it would be fun to compare notes.

Preferably as a PM.

Cheers!