Another nail in the MACC morale coffin.

[Mahaba]

So, as well as the prospect of losing staff in numbers from the unit, a morale boosting new set of initiatives seem to be being pursued by some managers/ supervisors at MACC.

- restrictions on summer leave.
- re-juggling the summer leave period.
- extending the sub-roster.

- NICE ONE! - just what we needed.

[anotherthing]

Mahaba,

Would this not be better placed in the NATS private forum?

Surely the local union reps will have an input to the proposed changes though?

[ZOOKER]

anotherthing,
Surely this should be posted on a public forum. NATS afterall is a Public Private Partnership is it not? The government are the biggest shareholder, and in a democracy is that not "Government of the people, by the people, for the people?"

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Zooker... Are you joking? The UK is not a democracy and hasn't been for years. The PM is a Dictator in this place....

[Roffa]

Don't apply for a posting to TC then, 1 and 3 happen there as well! :rolleyes:

[expediteoff]

Join the club.

1 and 2 at our Unit. (Probably 3 as well if I knew what a sub roster was!)

You know what to do - get your Union reps to sort it out if your not happy.

[ZOOKER]

What is a sub-roster?

[Chimaera]

Sub-roster - alternatively know as "the sh*tty stick roster".

Lots of day shifts and not your regular 6on, 4off pattern - we do 5on 2off, 4on, 3off.

It's basically a way for management to screw more days work out of you and to make you eat up your leave quicker - you need to take 9 days leave to get a 2 week break instead of 6 when you're on a regular roster.

Before anyone jumps down my throat - I know the hours work out about the same as a regular pattern but it sure doesn't feel like it.

[Roffa]

That's not what I thought was meant by sub-roster, we don't do that at TC fortunately, so scrub 3 from my earlier reply!

Prospect must have agreed to it though mustn't they otherwise why are you doing it?

[HeathrowDictator]

When we dropped one controller off nights for a month last year we found when we weren't on nights we would be working 6 on, 2 off, 1 on, 1 off before coming back for the 6 on. This has always been the case with the non nightshift cycle, but I agree with Chimaera - it feels like you have less time off. That said, we must get more days off than the majority of other professions so I can't complain too much!! :)


-HD-

[Togo Dawn]

Mahaba, I don't know where you got that from, but it seems an unfounded rumour.

For those that don't know our sub roster is Mon - Fri, and we work 4 shifts of 7 hours. So in effect we work a 28 hour week and have every weekend off. We do it twice a year at most and most people volunteer to do it as it saves taking leave at a weekend. You do it for anywhere between 3 - 6 weeks at a time.

As for it reducing your leave, I don't know where that comes from. I have never had to take leave from the sub roster, I get put back on shift so I get the full 14 days off as per normal.:ok:

Personally, I like it and I know many others do as well. I have spoken with our reps and they know nothing about it other than managers would like to change it so we do more hours (don't they always?), but nothing is planned, and anyway we would get a vote.

The redifining of the summer leave was an initial discussion to help out the ATCO's as there was simply too many of us and not enough leave lines. So as to ensure everyone got their full summer leave (and their was talk of 'junior' ATCO's only being allowed 2 cycles instead of 3) a redefinition of Summer was proposed. A good thing I would suggest.

Morale is all relevant, some people are insuch a state of permanent angst round here they have become almost paranoid!:confused:

[notared]

28 hours a week and no nights for the same money, where do I sign?

[Gonzo]

Togo Dawn.

Sorry, can I just confirm that. You work effectively 4 on 3 off, 7 hours a shift? Guaranteed weekend off?

[Togo Dawn]

Gonzo, not necessarily 4 on 3 off. You have to work any 4 shifts from 5 in a working week, so you might get a Monday or Friday off or even a Wednesday - just depends on how it falls. Oh and instead of 2 til 10 on an afternoon its 2 til 9.

Notared - nail head hit. Some people round here moan about anything.

[Gonzo]

You have to work any 4 shifts from 5 in a working week

Sorry, yes, that's what I meant.

Hmmm, interesting.

[5milesbaby]

Hate to pi$$ on your fire but for at least the last 5 years in AC Swanwick, summer leave is only 2 cycles and then an additional 2 to 4 days depending on your seniority (ie have you gained the additional days for doing 8 or 10 years service) and only if spaces allow the additional days to be taken. Summer leave period runs from 1st May to 30th September which was "re-juggled" about 4 years ago so only 5 months and could be different to other units. I know there is a maximum number of days we can take in this period should the rare chance occur for spaces to be available and think its 18 days (3 cycles). Don't know ANYONE that has had this approved other than for extreme circumstances. Still waiting to book my additional days for this year's summer period and it looks like May, May or May, as for booking a holiday based on that..... :}

[notared]

Very interesting!!!!!!!!!

[Togo Dawn]

5miles, it only makes my point "of looking a gift horse inthe mouth" more relevant ...:cool:

[anotherthing]

Togo Dawn

You must be blind, you have it all wrong, can't you see.

It's MACC, therefore they are being seen off, whatever the issue. That's the only fact you need to know :}

[MrJones]

Would this not be better placed in the NATS private forum?I heard of someone who posted an unfavourable comment on the NATS intranet and got a good telling off.

[PPRuNe Radar]

That's probably becuase the NATS Intranet is a company owned site and they might not like the apple cart upset by staff :}

The private NATS Forum here on PPRuNe is not company run or influenced so there is some modicum of 'free speech' there :ok:

[MNT]

I have seen some very unfavourable comments on the Intranet and as far as I can see none have been removed or posters admonished for stating their position. If people feel NATS is that bad they should try working in the real commercial world!

[skyman01]

Gonzo is correct - the sub-roster is a dream, 4 days a week (or 28 hours), no weekends, and the potential to work at least 4 AAVA's a month for at least £2000 extra before tax - and there are 10 people/month doing that!
Looking at that a different way, those 10 people COULD be working 400 hours/month, a difference of 120 hours or 3 ATCO's! Don't knock it guys!

[anotherthing]

I and several colleagues have posted some disparaging remarks about the current pension debacle on the Intranet.

Oddly enough they were not favourable to the management, and were actually quite derogatory, mainly in the hope that it would elicit some response (I despair at what appears to be a lack of passion over this issue in particular from the management who are trying to cut benefits yet trot out the same mundane half truths to justify their stance).

To be fair, the comments have not been pulled and no boll:mad:king issued. However that just further amplifies my belief that management believe they can ge away with anything regardless of facts or the feelings of those it will affect and that they believe they can just steamroller the eomplyees!

[flower]

Sub Rosters are not all the same, some are not good and people cannot wait to get off them back to the normal watch roster. They can be far more tiring due to the times of shifts so whilst Heathrows may be good others are dire.

I seem to remember that it was agreed a few years back between both management and unions that everyone should be able to take 3 cycles leave during the designated summer months, perhaps my memory is failing me or it has been changed .

[250 kts]

Lots of interesting stuff here but I'm still waiting for Mahaba to come back and justify the original post. Maybe he's on the sub roster working all of those AAVAs. :=:=

[notared]

:E Out of curiosity does the Red Barron know about this roster? If not I think he should be told!!!!!!!!

[WhatUMean]

it seems e,,,

[250 kts]

Why would he be interested about a perfectly legitimate roster which is within the normal Working Practice rules?:ugh:

[ZOOKER]

Why would The Red Barron get excited about the MACC sub-roster? Allegedly it was agreed by the unions to match staff attendances to traffic levels. Now, according to the Eurocontrol complexity document, MACC comes in at No.5, (TC No.1), LACC at No.28 ( Way down there). Surely the staff at this fairly complex unit (EGCC) should enjoy enhanced relief to cope with what must be intense weekday traffic levels? Also in a profession where safety is paramount, we cannot afford to have fatigued ATCOs on duty?

[250 kts]

Why would The Red Barron get excited about the MACC sub-roster? Allegedly it was agreed by the unions to match staff attendances to traffic levels. Now, according to the Eurocontrol complexity document, MACC comes in at No.5, (TC No.1), LACC at No.28 ( Way down there). Surely the staff at this fairly complex unit (EGCC) should enjoy enhanced relief to cope with what must be intense weekday traffic levels? Also in a profession where safety is paramount, we cannot afford to have fatigued ATCOs on duty?

Spot on Zooker. So how come it has already been suggested that those on the roster-and apparently there are up to 10 of them at any time-just use it to maximise AAVAs at what obviously is a busy and complex unit. I guess fatigue goes out of the window where cash is concerned?

I still also can't understand why apparently the 5th most complex and busiest unit in Europe hardly ever puts on a regulation(except for S29, 1st thing in the morning for about an hour):confused::confused: You guys really must be the best. :D:D or my Watch Supervisors have a lot to learn about regulations.

[ZOOKER]

Hey 250kts, (Even the name sounds like a restriction)!
Check this out:-
NATS was recently voted "THE WORLD's BEST ANSP" (by its peers).
Its core values are:- Safety, Service, value, People.
Safety is No.1, Numero Uno. It's what it's all about.
Manchester, (MACC, EGCC or whatever) allegedly recently won an award for safety.
SAYS IT ALL.
For many years, Manchester has been providing an ATC service which can only be described as TOP DRAWER.
Their lack of slot restrictions may be due to a lack of aeros, but listening to these folks working I suspect it is more likely due to sheer professionalism.
Finally, in the "real commercial world", I suspct there are many who put in less hours than the MACC sub-roster team, without their safety accountabilities, and for far greater remuneration.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Mmmmm, Manchester probably had the best improved safety record because it was bloody awful before ... and that comes from the presentation given by their safety team. Top drawer ?? I'd say equal or better now.

They are doing good things these days, and their culture is up there with the best of them. So, well done to those who have helped make the change. It had to be or else we may have been looking at something more serious.

And I don't mean looking at a mobile phone whilst a runway incursion is taking place .....

[Me Me Me Me]

28 hour week? 6 days leave to get 2 weeks off?

People in the real world work 40+ hour weeks for an average of c. £23k and it takes 10 days leave to get 2 weeks off. They have to turn up when their working day starts and they have to stay till their day is over.

I can see why morale is so low right enough.... Get a grip.

[250 kts]

Zooker,

250 kts is actually used for safety reasons so not a restriction at all:ugh:

But you say "but listening to these folks working" suggests that you don't actually work there and are actually not really qualified to comment on the subject of ATC working practices.

You are correct in what you say about the award but need to read the comments from Pprune Radar.

They are part of an organisation which provides a "top drawer" service-full stop.

Not sure what you mean by the "real commercial world" though.

Me Me. It is only 28 hours for the weeks they are on the roster. They will have to make up the hours to a normal 35 hours week elsewhere in the year.

[ZOOKER]

OK Knots, Listen Up:-
250kts is a speed restriction. Heard it on the R/T today. "Standard speed restriction 250 kts" Safety or not it's a restriction no less, as is a level restrriction or a heading restriction.
If the sub roster is "a perfectly legitimate roster within the normal working practice rules" well that's all right then.
I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment.
I may have even heard HD in the 80s, -a great honour Sir.
Taking my scanner, binos and well-thumbed Graham Duke to the top of Mt Belzoni I can often hear the transmissions from the Costa Del Swanwick. And what do I hear? Yawnsville! Contrast this with the MACC frequencies or the myriad of dancing lights often seen in the skies above our capital.
It is amazing how often the voices change. Also I note you often do 2 frequencies at a time. I suppose the theory is "We're No.28, if we do 2 freqs together we'll be No.14, -Only 9 below Manchester!
Finally, Me Me. Most people start and finish work at the appointed times.
I would like to see a flight crew sneak off before the end of their duty. Even 'Goldenballs' (Mr Beckham to you), has to stay until the end of his shift.

[Fidgell]

Zooker "I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment."

:ugh:

I was laughing hard reading this... Then I started to feel nothing but pity!!!
:eek:

[ZOOKER]

Fidgell,
Feel no pity. I do not have to relocate to the Costa del Saltcoats 2 years from now!!!:

[intherealworld]

I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment.

Couldn't make this stuff up, spotters commenting on the interface between LACC (or should that be LAC Swanwick AC or whatever our name is this week) and MACC!

[250 kts]

Hey Zooker,

Thanks for the laugh.:D:D

No pity felt from here though-just a shame you aren't in the business, unable to visit a major unit in any official capacity and therefore unlikely ever to become remotely knowledgeable about anything to do with ATC, except from what you pick up on your airband.:{:{

And as for your comment ""We're No.28, if we do 2 freqs together we'll be No.14, -Only 9 below Manchester!"-T**SER!! :eek::eek:

You also say "I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment." That's a bit like saying I've seen B777s overflying and heard them too so I am in a position to comment on the cause of last weeks' accident.

Oh by the way the "myriad of dancing lights often seen in the skies above our capital." are being controlled by who??-I'll let you answer the question yourself.:confused::confused:

Never mind-now maybe you should get back to doing some more under lining in your books!!:E:E:E:E:E:E:E

[Fidgell]

Zooker...Ever kissed a girl son???? Dont fret about where i work lad, ill keep counting the cash :D

Oh, think Ive heard you over the airwaves too.... "dya want fries with that!!!"

:}

[250 kts]

Thanks for that Fidgell-I thought i was caught up in some bizarre North/South divide.

[ZOOKER]

Knots, Good Evening.
Spotters do not underline things anymore.. Try and keep up, we're living in the digital age now.:rolleyes:
I believe some spotters even take their own 'radars' with them:ok:
Of course I know where the LTMA is controlled from. I think it's in a room fairly close to you is it not? Go and have a look! See the plan! Combine the most complex unit (No.1) with the 14th, (Way down there), divide by 2 and, oh sh*t we're still 2.5 comlpexity points below Manchester:{:{:{:{
Fidgell, Lots of exciting spotting at EGPK:ok: The 747 Dreamlifter and AN225 are regular visitors! As for the fries, I think everthing is fried up there: Pizzas, Mars Bars, you name it :uhoh::uhoh:
-And as for the cash you'll be counting, that'll be your Band 4 salary then. :E:E:E:
Now, enough of this silly thread-drift. Why is the morale low at MACC?

[Fidgell]

I have no worries about heading north - been there before!!!

My morale is as high as the bank account bud, and I get paid to do your hobby! Surely there are sites for anoraks lad, run along and let the workers chat... you know nothing about our day, reality is a different animal.

I think ive been had here, there is no way this guy is for real is there?:ugh:

[ZOOKER]

Fidgell,
In fact, on The Costa del Saltcoats, the world's your oyster.
Deep-Fried of course!! :}:}:}:}

[DTY/LKS]

ZOOKER

Why not leave us REAL ATCOs to talk on our ATCO forum about REAL issues. I am sure if you search the net then there is a forum for pretenders to chat. Why not hang around "Spotter's Corner?"

I do find your posts a laugh tho & have brought a smile to my face, ya joker!

[beaver liquor]

Ah, let him stay he's doing no harm. He could be our gimp, (since the last Gimp went to Canada). Hey Zooky - milk, 1 sugar, ta.

[250 kts]

And I'm still waiting for Mahaba to explain why he started this bloody thread in the 1st place.:confused::confused:

[northernmonkey1261]

He's allowed an opinion, and I am a big fan of the Eurocontrol complexity results, so leave the lad be, as he said nobody's sending him to Scotland, and the cash you're counting will have to be splashed on big bids over asking price to get your abode in Prestwick
Fidgell, I think you will admit you are not among the majority in "your mad for going to Prestwick attitude" and that is the one of the morale nails at the moment.
You can't judge how busy a centre is by what regulations it has.
At MACC, we only do it if we cannot avoid it, which is not the case in other centres, we sit down and reroute/ change levels, MDI etc, so that the sectors still get a spanking, but a manageable one.
Our subroster is a minor perk for those who see it as one, I avoid it like the plague, hate it, menawhile perks like fantastic early goes on morning spins shifts are commonplace at LACC, and never ever seen at MACC, so its swings and roundabouts.
MACC is falling apart at the seams, its true, we run on good will, which is unfortunatley slowly dissipating, as the relocation package is a mess, no plans in place for management structure, huge training burden, just to make sure we go to Bonny Scotland with just the 30 short of our target staff. God forbid people leaving for Canada and Europe in the next year, or transferring down to the college or the lesser complex LACC for an easier less complex ride.
Selectaaaaaaaaaa

[ZOOKER]

DTY/LKS Thanks for your kind words. If you are an ATCO doing the sectors your name implies, I often sit in the garden with my 10x50s and admire the comlpex contrail tapestries you and your colleagues weave in the skies over Mt Belzoni. Pretty amazing stuff :ok:
Beaver Liquor, what is a Gimp? I can find no reference to this term in Graham Duke's book (or an RAF en-route document that i have). Also.why did the last 'Gimp' go to Canada?

[beaver liquor]

From Wikipedia:

Vercingetorix (pronounced [werkiŋˈɡetoroi] in Latin, died 46 BC), was chieftain of the Arverni, originating from the Arvernian city of Gergovia and known as the man who led the Gauls in their ultimately unsuccessful war against Roman rule under Julius Caesar. Known primarily through Caesar's accounts, Vercingetorix's revolt is frequently used as a heroic example of Gallic virtue and resolve.

re. the Gimp, I was thinking more along the lines of the character from Pulp Fiction but hey, whatever.

Zooker, I think its unfortunate and ill-advised that you make comments about banding and complexity based on your spotting experience when we both know that if you plugged in with any controller at Prestwick/Manch/Swanwick you wouldnt have a clue what was going on.

[ZOOKER]

Beaver, You are correct. I have not seen the movie you mention. I am not interested in fiction, (pulp or otherwise). I am interested in FACTS.
It is a FACT is it not, that MACC staff are remunerated less than the LACC en route controllers who are, according to complexity tables mentioned above, are responsible for less complex airspace, due in part to a pay banding formula which (allegedly) has been proven flawed.
This, along with the relocation to The New Prestwick Centre, (or should that be Prestwick Centre-The Noo), is one of the main undercurrents of the current MACC morale problems.
Also Beaver, I think you will find the underlying principles of ATC are fairly straightforward to understand. Even an ATC layperson such as 'Goldenballs' (Mr Beckham to you), would, if plugged in on Clacton for a couple of hours, get a good grasp of the procedures.
'GIMPY' would make an excellent waypoint, preferably in one of your sectors Beaver. (if indeed you are a controller). :}
'ZOOKA' would also be a good one. Probably suitable for more complex TMA Airspace! :ok:

[Gonzo]

Once again, I commend the forum's 'Ignore List' function to the house..

[anotherthing]

Zooker

I work at Swanwick (TC) and therefore according to your figures and comments deserve the pay I get compared to MACC.

However as you have said yourself, the Banding is flawed - but exactly how accurate are Eurocontrols figures?

The complexity (both NATS and Eurocontrol) figures suit me because they put my unit at the top, but they disagree on other units.... which one is correct?

Obviously which set of figures you agree with depends on which unit you work at - no one will agree with figures that make them worse off!

With regards to Banding, complexity is not the only issue - traffic loading also comes into play. When the monthly traffic figures are announced Swanwick (AC) tends to always have the biggest year on year growth. Admittedly, the vast majority of these are overflights and therefore less complex, however the larger increase in traffic cannot be dismissed.

As for people complaining about sub rosters - if you have a complaint, see your union - they would have agreed to it.

Everywhere is going the same way, albeit under different names. At TC we have recently had several new shift times introduced - the are not classed as spins and could be thought of as a 'sub roster'.

Mahaba,

As always, we await your reply - even if it is to admit you are talking out of your derriere!

[1985]

meanwhile perks like fantastic early goes on morning spins shifts are commonplace at LACC,

Really? Must find me one of those. Don't think 1pm (or half hour) counts as a fantastic early go myself.

Even an ATC layperson such as 'Goldenballs' (Mr Beckham to you), would, if plugged in on Clacton for a couple of hours, get a good grasp of the procedures.

Rubbish. Shut up.

[eyeinthesky]

QUOTE
Perks like fantastic early goes on morning spins shifts are commonplace at LACC, and never ever seen at MACC,
UNQUOTE

Rubbish! I have just returned home from my morning spin shift at Swanwick AC. Rostered times 0600-1230. I was relieved from my position at 1218. If you think 12 mins makes all that difference then you are sadder than you appear!

We hear that 'half and half' nights are commonplace at ScACC and MACC whilst Swanwick AC are in [U]all night both[U]nights and the best you can hope for is a 2-hour break twice in the night. But of course the rumours from up north may be false.

As for the hard-luck stories about the move to Scotland... let me see:

ATCO pay much higher compared to the average local wage than it is down South;
Free university education for your children
Free personal care for your elderly relatives
5-bed detached for the price of a 3-bed semi...and much much more

[Ppdude]

eye in the sky..........
seeing as the Prestwick move is such a good deal, Im guessing you will not be objecting when you get your posting there.

You are after all a mobile grade.

[DC10RealMan]

You blokes at Manchester make me laugh about the mobile grade clause because at one time you would not be moved from Manchester with dynamite. You have had a plum posting that lots of us expatriate Northerners would have killed for. Now you have to do what those of us at West Drayton and many other units have had to do over many years. Get over it and move to Scotland.

P.S. I retire in 2010 when Manchester closes so may I buy your house in leafy Cheshire when you move to Ayrshire?

P.P.S The American General George Patton said that in the dictionary you find the word "sympathy" in between **** and syphilis

[chiglet]

DC10,
I join the "Dark Side of the Force" on Feb 1st...that should "improve" their morale a bit........:E
watp,iktch

[anotherthing]

eye in the sky -

Both sides at Swanwick have the same deal you are on about regarding nights, though the way the breaks are done are different. It would be nice to witness these fantastic early goes from morning spins, or non turn to nights!!

I suppose the bottom line is, is that whatever is said, MACC is being seen off more than anyone else. No argument or productin of facts will change that train of thought from those 'disadvantaged' ones.

[Stupendous Man]

ATCO pay much higher compared to the average local wage than it is down South;
Free university education for your children
Free personal care for your elderly relatives
5-bed detached for the price of a 3-bed semi...and much much more

What does relative average pay have to do with anything? Things cost the same regardless of what the guy next door earns.
You don't have to live in Scotland for the free Uni - just attend uni there
I don't know about the elderly relatives bit - but as mine live in N.Irelnad it doesn't matter!
I hate to shatter your illusions but the days of buying a castle for 50p and a banana are long gone. Housing in a good area is pretty comperable to areas of the south coast - ceratinly the 4 bed I had down there cost just a bit more than my 4 bed up here

What is the much much more?


I love it here at Scoacc and living where I do.
However, I have a great deal of sympathy for the MACC guys (as do the majority of people working here).
I wouldn't want to uproot my family after 15+ years and start over if it wasn't my idea. I know we are a mobile grade - but when was the last time someone was moved by management as opposed to requesting a move? LATCC down the M3? People moving from London to Swanwick could keep their family in situ and commute. A couple of hours isn't too much if you want to keep your family in the same place, partner in same job, kids in same schools and same social network.
The MACC guys don't have that option.


Yes at ScoACC we work half and half nights - these are last of the perks and are slowly disappearing (as no doubt is happening at all units - not just ours). Half of the first halfs (if you follow) now stay all night. EGs are non existent on the rest of the shifts. And I think the uber early goes on your mornings down south that are being alluded to are the 0530 starts - I know people get away just after 7. Fair play to you - I wish we had it!:ok:


BTW if any MACC guys want to get in touch about moving to Scottish feel free to PM me.

[250 kts]

No more 0530's at LACC since we went back to 4 on nights in mid 2007. This was done as only 3 on nights for 2 positions left us too vulnerable to sector closures if 1 person was sick.

[Stupendous Man]

Fair enough - thought you guys still had them.

[Ali Bongo]

Isn't it warming to see how we all get on......

makes me all glowy that we have such respect for each other ....:ok:

[anotherthing]

Ali,

sounds like a healthy fialogue (in the main) to me. Concur with 250Kts - no more 0530 either AC or TC. Middle of january and the early go fo rthe 0600 start is 12 mins!

As stupendous man says, perks are being eroded everywhere.

I think this dialogue as it is is a good thing, lets all of the workforce realise that they are not the only ones who are losing out on things - it also amplifies the differences in each units working pratices - each has some good as well as some bad!

[tczulu]

Moving down the M3 from Latcc to Swanwick is no problem eh?A fair number of people lived about 1 to 1 and a half hours drive away to the north of Latcc. Not commutable on a daily basis to the **** hole that is Swanwick at all.So we change our lifestyle etc.I live away when working and dont see my daughter and partner that often.But I get on with it without too much wingeing , tho some of Z watch (amber my arse )might disagree!

[Stupendous Man]

I know that not all of the London guys (and gals) wanted to move south. And not all were able to commute from London (or wherever they lived) if they so wanted in order to maintain their current lifestyle (and that of their families). My point was that this isn't an option to anyone at MACC. Which is one of the reasons morale is low there (I guess) which is the title of this thread.

I wasn't trying to imply that everyone else has an easy time - just addressing some of the points that had been made previously.

[lifeistooshort]

I can appreciate your difficulties associated with your move to the Swanwick area and I do have sympathy for your situation. However, I really do think that you are missing the point!
You have relocated a mere 70 miles compared to the 240 miles that the Manchester guys will move. Moving down the M3 corridor allows you to continue your life in a relatively normal manner compared to that you enjoyed previously. This will NOT be the same for the Manchester guys because moving to Scotland is like moving to a foreign country - especially if you are English. I should know as I made the mistake of moving here 9 years ago.
Up here we don't watch the BBC on the tv - we watch 'BBC Scotland'. We don't read 'The Daily Mail' - we read 'The Scottish Daily Mail'. What kind of an outcry do you think there would be, if down south the BBC rebranded itself as 'BBC England' or the Mail called itself 'The English Daily Mail' - there would rioting in the streets by all those 'non-english' types that live there. In Scotland virtually everything has to be branded with the word 'Scottish' - and things have only got worse since the SNP took control in the 'Scottish Government' as they now call it.
There is a real and nasty undercurrent of anti-english bias in Scotland at the moment and it gets worse with each passing day. Everything that is wrong with Scotland as a country is blamed on failures by English governments of the past. English people living in Scotland are seen as guilty by association. Scottish drivers can proudly display their 'scottishness' with Scottish flag bumper stickers and can be seen throughout the UK. Put an England flag on your car in Scotland and it is going to get vandalised.
My kids are at school and have mild english accents. They have as a result attracted 'unwanted' attention and have even received criticism from teaching staff for not pronouncing their words properly - they are expected to have the gutteral west coast of scotland accent which is almost unintelligible. The quality of teaching here in Ayrshire is verging on the criminal .(Don't take my word for it. Look up the website 'upmystreet.com' for the local schooling stats as to how many kids actually get any qualifications at school, and compare it to your local school -YOU WILL BE HORRIFIED!)
The SNP Government have decided to do away with Council Tax in 3 years time , which sounds like a real vote winner. Until you realise that they want to take a flat rate 5% tax out of your wages irrespective of where you live or in what size of property. How does Council Tax of £2400 p.a. grab you!
If you move up from Manchester and are from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, then you will be accepted in Scotland. However, if you are English or your wife is English or your kids have an English accent, then you are not going to find a welcome from the locals up here. So beware you Manchester guys and girls. Be very careful about where you decide to try to live as some places are a lot worse than others, in their dislike and hatred of the English. If I was you I would jump ship now whilst the going is good. Once you are here you will struggle to get out again - it has recently been decreed that 'Scottish' cannot release any Atcos who might want to go to the College, for at least the next 2-3 years!
Best of luck to you all at Manchester!

[Me Me Me Me]

As a Scot, I found that amusing :}

99.99% of anti-English comments in Scotland are light-hearted. Yes, the odd idiot takes it too far but this is not the norm. Generic Englishness is not particularly popular in the same way that generic Americanism is unpopular in... well... almost everywhere really. Individual people, be them English, Irish, Indian or Chinese are generally treated on merit just like any other civilised society.

The reason for regional broadcasting and news media is down to the near total domination of English interest content on 'British' media. It's not an attempt at seperatism (although the NATS(no, not them) do try to hijack it as such sometimes) it's merely matching supply with demand.

If you paid any attention to the politics you would no that no policies that court controversy will be passed in the Scottish Parliament - due to the minority government. They say populist things but are fairly toothless on the big issues... It's like actually having the Lib Dems in!

I can't comment on the specific schools you refer to... I'll take your word for that. However, the education system in Scotland has been shown to perform better than it's southern counterpart nationally on many occassions. That doesn't help you if all the good schools are in the East though, I know.

Of course, a gutteral West-coast Scottish kid who started school in Hampshire wouldn't raise so much as an eyebrow would they?

(... and not a single mention of the Highland clearances... :oh: )

[10W]

Looks like lifeistooshort is a dyed in the wool rabid Daily Mail reader and disappointed that he can't get the national diatribe version up here ... ho hum. :}

Of course there are areas in Scotland where there is bigotry and racism .. just like the rest of the UK. That can be England, Wales, or look across the sea to Northern Ireland as well and I'm sure you could say exactly the same if you moved to certain areas, based on your accent or religion. Not too long ago though, there the consequences could be a little bit more harsh than bullying in NI, don't you think lifeistooshort ?? I've had the old 'sweaty jock' routine whilst down in England, but hey, I laugh it off and get on with things. Or give as good as I get. 'Life is too short' to do otherwise. :E

The guys and girls who had to move to Swanwick might technically only be making a 70 mile move, but how many of them actually lived in West Drayton do you think ?? Many more lived far away from that green and pleasant place. The fact is that whether you move 10 miles or 1000 miles, your lifestyle will generally go through some changes. If you don't want to make the change, don't make the move and do something else in your life. Interestingly, the Appeal Courts have now laid down a judgement on the legality of moves when an establishment closes down. Read the latest Prospect newsletter to see why any legal challenge by MACC ATCOs won't work.

I think you'll find most folks up here have a degree of sympathy with the MACC folks. If it had been the other way around then we know we'd probably be in the same frame of mind. But since this move has now been on the cards for a long time and the move to 'O' date is marching on, there comes a time when you just have to accept it's going to happen, make your decision to move or not, then draw a line under all the arguments for/against the change and get on with it. I think we've passed that point.

The quality of teaching here in Ayrshire is verging on the criminal .(Don't take my word for it. Look up the website 'upmystreet.com' for the local schooling stats as to how many kids actually get any qualifications at school, and compare it to your local school -YOU WILL BE HORRIFIED!)


We have named a reporting point after this ... best said in a Northern Ireland accent .. it's BALIX. My local secondary school in Troon was inspected by the Government (as it is every year). The 2007 report highlighted as the schools strengths:

HM Inspectors identified the following key strengths.

• Pupils’ overall attainment in Scottish Qualifications Authority (SQA) examinations, their broader achievements in developing skills of citizenship and enterprise and their pride in their school.
• The school’s reputation in the community and its links with parents.
• A broad and flexible curriculum which met the individual needs of pupils.
• The range of extra-curricular activities, positive ethos and good relationships between teachers and pupils.
• Pastoral care and the effectiveness of the school’s approaches to supporting pupils.
• Leadership of the headteacher and his depute headteachers.

As there is only one secondary school in Troon, it's not hard to work out which one. Perhaps you could move here lifeistooshort ?? There's a new development just up the road from me, with streets named after lifeboatmen. Full of folks with their 4x4's so it would be almost like living in Chelsea :)

The achievements of the pupils are not too bad ... considering they are being taught in a criminal manner.

The following comments are based on Scottish Qualifications Authority (SQA) data, using the Scottish Credit and Qualifications Framework (SCQF)2 for the three year period 2004-2006 and also draw on the overall evaluations of the quality of learning, teaching and meeting pupils’ needs.

At S3/S4, the overall quality of attainment was very good. The proportion of pupils attaining five or more awards at SCQF levels 3, 4 and 5 was above the national average. At SCQF level 5, the school performed better than similar schools. At SCQF levels 3 and 4, boys performed better than girls.

At S5/S6, the overall quality of attainment was very good. At S5, the proportion of pupils attaining three or more and five or more awards at SCQF level 6 was well above the national average. At S6, the proportion was above the national average. The school performed much better than schools with similar characteristics.

Want me to get you a brochure ?? :p

This will NOT be the same for the Manchester guys because moving to Scotland is like moving to a foreign country - especially if you are English. I should know as I made the mistake of moving here 9 years ago.


We had a bunch of guys move up here around then, who didn't make it at LATCC (for one reason or another). Some had previously been based here and fancied the move South but didn't make the grade. Others who move up tend to be on compassionate or welfare postings. If you are one of the former, why didn't you take your own advice and ''jump ship whilst the going is good''. After all, you must have done some research about Scotland before coming here ?? Or was there no other job option for you except to be what is euphemistically called a 'retread' ?? In which case, you should possibly be a bit more grateful that NATS found you somewhere to work and earn your salary. (Note: there is no slight intended to anyone who has gone through such a process. We have lots of people at ScACC who have walked that road and have had absolutely no problem validating and continuing to perform as operational controllers. Not many of them still harbour sour grapes over what has happened to them.)

One good thing when you get here, at least for a small number of people at ScACC, is that the breaks from controlling are in the order of 45+ minutes. Thanks to the OPM system, such folks are easilly tracked. Are you one of those as well ? :} Gives lots of quality time to gripe in the canteen :ok:

[Vampy]

I think it all depends on how paranoid and sensitive you are as to any anti-English feeling you may perceive to have against you, in general.

If you come to Scotland expecting to be abused for being English or whatever, then you will take every single comment seriously and to heart and you won't enjoy it. I moved to Scotland a couple of years ago from England. Both me and my wife have English accents. If anything, I prefer it up here because we've found the people to be friendlier than 'down south', not to mention the cheaper standard of life.

The only 'anti-English abuse' I've experienced has been in jest, whilst England were being humbled by someone at football. In much the same way as you might be called a 'southern Softie' in Manchester or a 'Northern Monkey' at Swanwick. It's not serious, it's a bit of banter and that's it.

Yes, there might be isolated incidents of kids being bullied at school. But kids get bullied at school up and down Britain every single day for any number of reasons.

[anotherthing]

Lifeistooshort (to read your ranting)

it has recently been decreed that 'Scottish' cannot release any Atcos who might want to go to the College, for at least the next 2-3 years!

Your last line just blows the major argument out of the water.... MACC to Prestwick is a hell of a lot shorter distance than Prestwick to the College, but you whinge that people cannot get transferred to DAT&S..... then again, it's probably the band 5 wage that you find attractive, and it really doesn't boil down to where you live.

Lifeistooshort, if you are so disgruntled and your move to the college has been veto-ed (sounds like you know through experience) why don't you move to LACC... or is the prospect of having to validate (which you would not need to do at the college), at a band 5 unit that puts you off?

As for bullying - I think you will find that down south it can be much worse and much more serious.... how many kids have been killed in Scotland for mobile phones etc?

As for your kids being picked up for pronounciation, unless you speak with no regional accent, the chances are it's a fair comment. Despite the Glaswegian accent, the Scottish diction is supposedly one of the clearest around. Maybe you should attend night school, dear chap!


So beware you Manchester guys and girls. Be very careful about where you decide to try to live as some places are a lot worse than others,....


Jeez, talk about stating the bleeding obvious.... of course in England every area is exactly the same as the other so it must have been a real shock for you when you had to go to Scotland to find that different areas have differing standards :ugh::ugh:

You've been in Scotland for 9 years yet you seem to hate every minute of it. Don't even try to claim that transfers have been veto-ed for all the time you have been there. Is it lack of ambition, or just lack of ability that has meant that you have stayed put in the hell hole you call Scotland? If I hated something as much as you profess to do, I would be a man about it... I certainly would not continue to subject my wife and kids to such an ordeal.

[Widger]

to the **** hole that is Swanwick at all


TCZULU.............I think you really have lost the plot and all touch with reality!

[Air.Farce.1]

lifeistooshort

With reference to the utterly distasteful comments by "lifeistooshort", I would like to dispell such nasty bordering on racist comments and fears by suggesting "lifeistooshort" applies for an ATC posting to Saudi Arabia. He or she with their family can then watch the weekly public executions for entertainment, rather than suffer the locals with such awful lifestyles in Scotland.
Quite frankly you need a reality check and a boot up the ar*e. If you don't like living and working in Scotland then leave, and do us all a favour.
Incidentally, as a persona non grata, your attempt to hide your real identity has failed. Using another username and e mail address has not disguised your real identity. Your unique IP address was easily traceable :=

Your flight to Jedda is boarding in two hours :D

Good luck .....:* You will need it :ooh:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Incidentally, as a persona non grata, your attempt to hide your real identity has failed. Using another username and e mail address has not disguised your real identity. Your unique IP address was easily traceable

And how did you work all that out ?? I'll guess that you have no idea who the poster is. Regardless of whether anyone agrees with what they say or not, you won't get their ID from PPRuNe.

[southern jock]

I don't normally post on pprune however lifeistooshort's post has compelled me to post for the first time. It has made me realise that I am in a really unfortunate position. You see, as my username suggests I am indeed Scottish. Bad enough I hear you cry but on top of that I am from the south west of scotland so not only am i a racist and poorly educated, i also speak so poorly that nobody can understand me! I reckon I should give up now.

I, like many of my countryfolk who live down here in the sunny south were never given a choice when it came to postings, it was LATCC/Swanwick or nothing, regardless of how good a compassionate case you may have had. I accepted my posting and got on with things, got a validation and love it down here. I get plenty of banter for being a jock but in true scottish fashion I give back as good as I get, its all part of the ops room banter, oooh I'm mad for the banter!!

If indeed we are poorly educated and speak so badly, how do you account for the large number of Scottish people who work as ATCO's, especially down south. Heaven knows how the pilots and our colleagues understand us, is it one grunt or too for climb?

Your post is an insult to everyone from Scotland, including those who you work with at Scottish. I am not going to deny that there isn't a problem with anti english behaviour. Those who engage in it seriously are very much in the minority and should grow up. However the majority of Scots will say things in jest, much in the same way as the irish and welsh may say things.

I have every symapthy for those at MACC who do not wish to relocate for family reasons. However for those who simply don't want to move because it is to that 'foreign country' I would implore them to ignore the rubbish that comes from some people and instead give Scotland, a part of Great Britain, a very beautiful part at that, full of very friendly people, a chance.

Anyway rant over. If I have made any spelling mistakes, or my grammar is sub standard then I apologise, it must be my sub standard ayrshire education. I'm off now to find a car with an england flag on it, i've got a spare brick that needs throwing!

[Air.Farce.1]

"The SNP Government have decided to do away with Council Tax in 3 years time , which sounds like a real vote winner. Until you realise that they want to take a flat rate 5% tax out of your wages irrespective of where you live or in what size of property. How does Council Tax of £2400 p.a. grab you!"

Well, most folks up here have a Council tax bill in excess of "£2,400", so it would "grab" us very well indeed thank you. Two married ATCO salaries would benefit the Council to the tune of about £8,000 per anum. This could go towards educating all these terrible locals!
Incidentally, I never see any locals torching cars and running riot like the ones on the news south of Hadrian's Wall.....:}

[PPRuNe Radar]

lifeistooshort

The IAA might be in the market for qualified controllers, if you are not happy with your lot in Scotland :ok:

[anotherthing]

lifeistooshort

The IAA might be in the market for qualified controllers, if you are not happy with your lot in Scotland


Bear in mind though that this would mean you would have to undergo validation training (unlike if you ever manage to escape to the college)... and the 'Micks' might have something to say about your accent much the same way as us Jocks :}

Might not be worth the risk of giving up a posting and country you detest after all...

[BALIX]

We have named a reporting point after this ... best said in a Northern Ireland accent .. it's BALIX.

Hey, leave me out of this :}

BALIX - currently on a PPRUNE sabatical :oh:

[Ceannairceach]

I feel compelled to post here again, not sure why. Maybe it's because I feel the point is being lost a little.

I don't want to go to NPC because, in doing so, my partner (who out of interest is Glaswegian, via Dublin and now Manchester) and I (and the children that are nigh on arriving) are faced with a "either you quit or I quit" scenario when it comes to the careers we've both worked so hard for.

I firmly believe that's a sacrifice any company who values it's employees should never have asked them to make without any sort of prior consultation or reference whatsoever.

Sure, those of you who shifted from West Drayton to LACC had to move too. I accept that readily and with genuine sympathy. But did your families have to move too? Did you have to uproot your entire lives and sacrifice 50% of your joint income and standard of life because of the move down the motorway?

Of course not. And there ends your right to compare the two situations as far as I'm concerned.

And frankly, as a relatively passive and friendly PPRuNer, it disgusts me that a tiny minority of my colleagues from LACC feel qualified and suitably self-important to comment on a situation about which they have no experience or relevance to add. It just amounts to playground "we're better than you" nonsense - as usual, and cyber-inadequate-willy-waving.

The day I begrudge one of my fellow colleagues, regardless of his or her unit, their concerns and hopes and fears when it comes to our shared profession, is the day I string myself up as morally, professionally and sociologically bankrupt.

And to my own colleagues all I can say is that Scotland isn't a hell hole. And Scottish people aren't racist. They're just like you and me. Don't believe the nonsense that we get filled with in the rest room and at quiet moments on sector. I've a strong English accent and I've never been made to feel anything less than welcome up there at any time, albeit with a bit of friendly banter along the way. Nothing more than we'd give anyone joining the unit from elsewhere. And Scotland is a beautiful country. I think some of us think Manchester is some sort of blissful utopia. Erm, why?

Don't let us dilute our issues over the move with semi-racist diatribe and conjecture. Because doing so cheapens what is and should be a genuine gripe with our employer and the way they have, and are, treating us.

Our admittedly superb working arrangements are being diminished daily, staffing levels are being degraded regardless of the political spin we're being fed on the Intranet and via company e-mail, and you know, the sad thing about it all is - all the company had to do is ask those of us working on the shop floor at MACC what we thought about the move, in a sensible and constructive way, before pen was put to paper on the deal. As simple as that. Even if it was just for show, to be frank, just an impression that we were being listened to would probably have been enough to stem the mass resignations that are soon to follow. And they are soon to follow.....

When you ignore staff, en masse, regardless of profession or motive, then all you'll ever do is degrade morale and kill any sliver of good will that remains.

MACC is not a good place to work now. People are unhappy. They feel disenfranchised, ignored, put upon and hopeless - or at least those anti-NPC move folk amongst us do. And the rest feel equally unhappy because they have to listen to us :E

[Hootin an a roarin]

"When you ignore staff, en masse, regardless of profession or motive, then all you'll ever do is degrade morale and kill any sliver of good will that remains." and "People are unhappy. They feel disenfranchised, ignored, put upon and hopeless "

Deary deary me!!

Sounds like life at any NATS regional airport North of the border!

So life isn't so rosey for some of our area colleagues. Tough!!

We at the airports have been s*at on for years and now someone in NERL is getting it.

Why don't you retrain as a Twr/App controller and stay at Manchester, filling the shortages they may have and in the process taking ATCO3 promotion slots! Oh sorry, thats already happened once. Isn't morale a wonderful thing!

My heart bleeds. You are a mobile grade, it's in your contract so like it or leave and go elsewhere, or will you struggle to match your 90+ grand.

:yuk:

[Ppdude]

90+ grand????

Muppet

[anotherthing]

Ceannairceach

As a friendly PPruner (your words),


Sure, those of you who shifted from West Drayton to LACC had to move too. I accept that readily and with genuine sympathy. But did your families have to move too? Did you have to uproot your entire lives and sacrifice 50% of your joint income and standard of life because of the move down the motorway?

Of course not. And there ends your right to compare the two situations as far as I'm concerned.



and other bits you have posted but I cannot be bothered to quote... may I politely say that you are not qualified to make that statement about the people at West Drayton.

Some of us have every right, the same way that some of those at MACC have as little right to whinge as some of the West Drayton movers did.

100 miles, 200 miles or 330 miles (last one is roughly MACC to Prestwick) - who are you to say what is an acceptable and do-able commute (have you tried the M25-M3 run)? Once you get into the realms of circa 100 miles, then it is as significant as a 300 mile commute in-so-much that it is not something that people will want to do every day.
Therefore there are many people who are eligible to comment - much the same as there aere many at MACC who have as little right to whinge as at TC did.


My case alone - and I know I am not the only one by any means - my commute was going to be over 150 miles - not something I was prepared to do. So what did I have to do? Well my partner who has lived all her life in the area we used to live in had to up sticks and move her job... we based the area we bought our house in (more expensive brick for brick than in Scotland) on where her new job (working for a sub division of the company she used to work for) would be as well as mine to make the commute equal.

She has now lost her job because it has been relocated back to where she used to live.

I'm not exactly happy, but when you sign the dotted line, you know you are in a mobile grade... just because you have been lucky enough not to be moved for years does not take that fact away.

The main point of this story is - please do not dare to tell me or my colleagues that they are not qualified to comment when you have not got the foggiest idea what some peoples circumstances are.

[Ceannairceach]

See anotherthing, that's precisely it. And to paraphrase you a little....

I would suggest that some of my colleagues down south do not dare to comment on the move-and-morale related issues of my MACC colleagues and I, when most don't have the foggiest idea what our circumstances are.

Apart from, that is, when one of us foolishly posts here in the vain hope of getting any slight glimmer of support or at the least a sensible and mature reaction.

In my post I did, of course, omit the usual tired but no less important arguments pertaining to the educational, housing and legal system being completely different in Scotland - amongst the other differences. Issues that were not relevant when West Drayton shifted along the motorways.

So indeed, none of the folk who moved from TC/AC to LACC are qualified to comment on such issues with the blunt faced, mean spirited dismissiveness that we're usually offered. We're moving to what is, to many intents and purposes a different country. Not in a massive way, but in way massive enough to have a direct effect on our lives and the lives of the families we drag along with us.

So do me a favour, as a fellow friendly PPruner, heed your own advice perhaps. Or at least distance yourself from your own colleagues who participate in behaviour exactly like that you seek to stop.

And "Hootin an a roarin" - my £90k? Lord, I wish, my errant and annoyed friend.

Your attitude sums up what stinks about our company, or as it is now our two different companies, at the moment. When people get shafted it turns them bitter, it turns them cold to their colleagues and it turns them totally apathetic to the greater good.

We're all working in a "I'm alright Jack" environment.

Either that or "Well I had to do it, why shouldn't you?" scenario.

Or, heaven forfend, a "I'm being shafted so I'm really glad you're being shafted" situation.

One hopes, old chap, that you don't carry forward the attitudes you've displayed in your post there through to your operational task?

And if you're getting shafted in NSL, why haven't you jumped ship to the utopian, £90k a year NERL side of things before now?

I'd extremely politely suggest to you that in future you don't drag money into your debate. Because the moment you do it becomes vulgar, unsightly and childish. And similarly, jut because you've been shafted in your eyes, it doesn't mean everyone else should have to be. Oui?

[Roffa]

This is a genuine question, I'm just curious.

For anyone at MACC, is it the fact that you're moving at all or just the fact that it's to Scotland that is the major issue?

The writing has been on the wall for a long, long time that the sub-centre would eventually go, witness all the other outstations over the years that have been closed as operations were consolidated. Anyone working there must have known a move north or south was going to come eventually.

The two centre strategy is the only sensible one for the company as far as I can see, there's no justifiable requirement or special case for the sub-centre to remain in situ. At least, unlike many other companies that close factories or sites, there will still be a well paid job for many of the staff to go to.

So, would there have been the same discontent expressed if the move had been south rather than north or is it just more general discontent that the site is closing at all that is the main issue?

[Hootin an a roarin]

Sorry

Had a few too many sherberts last night, I meant 80 grand.

However I felt compelled to post as this whingeing has been going on for too long. At the airports we have whinged for years without anybody noticeing. As the minority within NATS and more importantly the Union the regional airports have been shafted for years. Ceannairceach, where were you when we had problems, Banding in particular? That got railroaded through the union vote as the Band4/5 people have and always will have the majority of the votes. Look after yourselves boys.

So moaning on here; do you all wish to gain sympathy from us when you have shown us non in return or what?

You have been well paid for years in an area where housing etc is relatively cheap (you don't have to live in Alderley Edge and I am from the area) compared to the London boys and girls, but now you may have to live across the border, like a lot of us from Manc, who cannot work back home.

When Barron sells off some of the airports and we may be forced to move to stay within NATS you can bet your a**e there will be little sympathy from the area guys.

Thats life, you are moving so get on with it!

[Ceannairceach]

I think for an awful lot of people the fact that it's Scotland is indeed the issue - and if the move was southwards the issue would be less stressing.

[Balloon24]

Roffa - "For anyone at MACC, is it the fact that you're moving at all or just the fact that it's to Scotland that is the major issue?"
IMO as a MACC dweller....First, human nature for the majority of people is such that a move anywhere isn't going to go down well. Second, the commute distance is such that even driving/flying it once a cycle is bad news...ask the trainee who did it (in reverse) for 18 months. Third - for some, the fact it's to Scotland is an issue. Some of the reasons quoted have been a bit dubious but many have real merit i.e. education system differences etc. Fourth - the particular part of Scotland we're talking about, even has some of the rightly patriotic Scots I work with, turning their noses up. And two Glasweigan friends of mine (nowt to do with ATC) don't exactly sing the praises of Ayrshire.
As for "there will still be a well paid job for many of the staff to go to"....the ATSA's have had two contradictory staff notices (issued within days of each other?!) about their futures...you think some of the ATCO's are p***ed off!
And thoughts about a (hypothetical) move South over a move North?....based on rest-room banter, don't think a move South would have seen the same numbers voting with their feet.
As an aside, anyone see what the French got up to last week as a result of proposals to move some of them from one side of Paris to the other?!

Hootin - wow, are you upset. You seem to take a certain amount of satisfaction at the NERL relocations (amongst other things)....think you've had "little sympathy from the area guys" in the past? Well I suspect your life with NSL aint going to be getting any easier the next couple of years...if you think it's about your NERL collegues stitching up NSL collegues or the union forgetting about you, think again...with the current system it's just weight of numbers....numbers that you're doing nothing to win over to your cause. Bit more solidarity across the board wouldn't be such a bad thing eh?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Notwithstanding that it is difficult to get released for a transfer from any unit, how many MACC staff who are unhappy with the move actually have posting requests for TC or AC in the system ??

If not willing to move North, and no request to move to Swanwick has been made, then why not ??

The move to Jockistan has been on the drawing board since the mid 1990's. That's 10+ years it has been known about within the company and nearer 15 years from conception to actually taking place. That's a long time to consider options and make a decision. Had the new centre at Prestwick been on time, you'd have been there since around 1999 anyway.

Someone mentioned that it would have been nice for staff to have a view on the move. It perhaps would have been, but in the end NATS is not a democracy so I am not sure what value it would have except to prove that NATS asked for views and then ignored them anyway (for sound business reasons). Would that annoy staff more or less than they are today ??

The two centre strategy was a corner stone of the Private Public Partnership, so as soon as that method of running NATS was agreed by our Judas Labour government, the fate of people at MACC and West Drayton was sealed. By also putting NATS in to a position where our customers would have transparent views of our costs and future investments, the multitude of units was bound to be a top target for reduction so driving down our costs and providing business resilience through common systems and equitable sizes of operation. The writing was on the wall ... and always has been. Sometimes you need to step back a bit though so you can actually read it.

[Balloon24]

PPRuNe Radar- "The move to Jockistan has been on the drawing board since the mid 1990's. That's 10+ years it has been known about within the company and nearer 15 years from conception to actually taking place."

I know people posted to MACC in '97 and '98 who on their written posting notice were advised that they were a mobile grade and that they would be moving SOUTH with MACC when it shut?!

So yes, we've known we were due to move but, on the shop floor at least, not for as long as you allude to and not in the direction a lot of people expected to be going!

[Hootin an a roarin]

"Bit more solidarity across the board wouldn't be such a bad thing eh? "

Why does this only now come into question when you have problems? You have not been into solidarity in the past when others were being screwed over.

Same as the LHR boys when they were being messed around with their new tower move. They had been fat dumb and happy, remaining quiet when the regionals became the even poorer relations within the company. Then they get a spanner in the works and want everyone to 'stick together' and support them. Too late matey!!

Plus reference the Union. The weight in numbers is there as a collective supposedly to look after the minority, but not ours. It looks after mainly the area guys as they are the majority and screws the minority just like management. I believe one of the Union mandates is to reduce the differential in the Banding system between 1/2/3 and bands 4+5. However seeing as band 4+5 have the majority vote then my cynical mind can't see that ever happening can you?

Solidarity Brother!!

[Ceannairceach]

To be fair when I started at MACC in the dim and distant past I was told, officially, we'd be moving south, not to Scotland. Clearly wrongly, but that's what I and the majority of people of the unit were told by our management at that time.

Also, I could be wrong on this but I'm pretty sure those who have applied for moves down south in the near recent past have been given a firm not happening by management. Unless promotion is involved. Perhaps a fellow MACC-dweller can confirm that?

We've had a lot of people leave MACC in the past 10 years or so - loads to Canada, quite a few to the college and a similar number to NSL. There are so many people competing for the few alternatives there are that it's never going to quall the concerns and worries of the majority of staff.

And Radar, I agree, from a business perspective the two centre strategy is a water-tight one after we were betrayed by those who allegedly serve us. But since when did the majority of staff do what's best for the business generally when their own lives are being affected in such a major way. It's human nature.

Hootin an a roarin - you do us a great disservice by suggesting that we're all not interested in solidarity and support for one's colleagues. We're certainly not all selfish in that way - it's fair to say I think that I'm definitely not. But I'm in an ever-shrinking minority. Especially now business has replaced ethics.

macker - as an Irishman, indeed a Wexford man, albeit a diluted one now, I'd love to come home. Sadly, my partner, being a Dubliner born and bred, is less keen to return home. To say the least...

But one day I'll come home. I will.

[Adola69]

:{ Dear Marge, my cousin Jethro is being deported to Australia for breakin'-up weavin' looms. Am I too late to prevent this? Yours sincerely Richard Arkwright.

I say chaps anyone got any good ATC stories to put on this ATC web site instead of all this hitting each other with clubs nonsense?:ok:

[throw a dyce]

Well you could come to Aberdeen.Offshore is an Area function.It's a lot drier than Manchester and good quality of life.Oh you would get a £17K pay cut,perhaps with a parachute,but then that was voted for wasn't it.:)

[PPRuNe Radar]

Roy McNulty stated this in response to the announcement of PPP in 1999.

He said if the private/public partnership had not been put on the table the only other way to pursue the Prestwick plan would be to close the Manchester centre.

I guess I must have seen options papers, etc, in the couple of years preceeding this which put the proposal to move MACC 'oop North' in the thoughts of NATS, hence my recollections.

The Prospect website mentions the move, dated 2003, but another site mentions the decision in 2001.

Maybe MACC management either weren't told, or put their heads in the sand. Both entirely believable on Planet NATS !!!

[Air.Farce.1]

Throughout this discussion about having to relocate, spare a thought for the ATSA grade.
At least ATCO's will have a job with stacks of overtime due to the lack of staff. NATS is hell bent on introducing electronic strips as a number one priority in PC, which will negate largely the need for ATSA's.
I would have thought this is a more serious issue than moving home. When I was in the RAF I moved with my family every 2 or 3 years as a mobile grade .
I really think a reality check is needed here, some people don't know when they are well off, largely I would suggest due to lack of life experience in general.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Throughout this discussion about having to relocate, spare a thought for the ATSA grade.

A very good point, and one just as worthy of our attention.

[anotherthing]

Ceannairceach (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=175181)

(I see from your profile you joined PPrune in 2007 and call yourself a 'whippersnapper' - how long have you been in NATS? A relevant question if you haven't been in that long - though because this is anonymous, you can spin me any line so we will never know the truth)

Indeed you did not mention the housing, education or legal system wrt the move.

Many people would argue that the education and legal system in Scotland are better than in England. Just ask people in England how much of a lottery it is to get kids into a 'good' school.

WRT the housing situation, when you mention the differences, do you mean that you are unhappy over the fact that it's cheaper to buy in Scotland i.e. you get more for your money? (One of the factors down south being tied into education standards and the inflated prices in catchment areas for 'good' schools)

Maybe Human Factors can save people time by designing a new personnel document that we can fill in on initial recruitment. I'll start it off, but maybe someone with the HF expertise can tidy it up.


"I (insert name), Staff Number (insert), want to make it clear that I am being seen off/unhappy/whingeing*, about the fact that I will have to move from (insert) to (insert)/train on the new iFACTS/ModeS/TCNE Airspace/EFPS/(insert other)* and I have only been given 3/5/10/15* years notice.

I want it made clear that I am being hard/very hard/extremely hard* done by and my case is worse/much worse/10 times worse* than anyone else's.

I also want it made clear that I will put up with this despite my misgivings because despite all my moaning, I am a cash whore and I know I will not get the same amount of money and the same pension or benefits in another job."

*delete where applicable


Despite what you say, Scotland is still in the UK. Yes, your unit is having to move further than TC to west drayton, but a commute is a commute...

Baloon24 hit the nail on the head (possibly unwittingly) when they said ...Second, the commute distance is such that even driving/flying it once a cycle is bad news...
Why should anyone have to be removed from their family in such a way... it is understandable that you would want to be able to go home every night, no one should feel that they have to stay apart from family when not on days off.

That is why we can compare the west drayton move to the MACC move - some people would have had a 100+ miles each way commute to get to Swanwick. Not acceptable to do everyday, so they were face with the 'up sticks and move the whole family' scenario.

You are splitting hairs when you talk about a move from one part of England to another being hugely different from a move from Manchester to Prestwick. The same worries about educational differences, etc etc apply.

What is happpening to you guys at MACC is not pleasant, but it's not exactly a surprise. The move to Scotland has been on the cards for years - despite what you say about what you had initially been told (i.e. that you would move south).

If you are so bothered, put in a letter requesting a move to Swanwick. You might not get it straight away, but once the dust has settled you will have the chance to move from Prestwick to Swanwick (and it will mean another paid move so you will benefit even more).

I honestly do not understand what all the bleating is meant to achieve on this thread, unless you are trying to set up some compensation claim (which has no legs to stand on).

So you are moving to Scotland. There are plenty people who had to make the move from WD to Swanwick who are unhappy about it even though it is closer (read TCZulu's rants). Unfortunately the company cannot please everyone.

The 2 centre strategy makes sound business sense. It provides redundancy.
MACC is better situated in Prestwick as far as the company are concerned as it means that the company will have the best split of resources if something catastrophic happens to either one of the centres.

You are moving. You have known about it for years.

End of story unless you leave NATS.

Not a pleasant statement, but a factual one. At least as an ATCO you have a future.

Ballon24

As an aside - As for "there will still be a well paid job for many of the staff to go to"....the ATSA's have had two contradictory staff notices (issued within days of each other?!) about their futures
That's a horrible situation to be put in, however it is not down to the move, it is down to the way we are progressing to a paperless workplace. 'Streamlining (a horrible word) would have happened in a few years anyway. It's going to happen at Swanwick as well (and in the towers).

Also, spare a thought for the many Engineers who were made redundant by the WD to Swanwick move.

The circumstances between the 2 moves are a lot closer than some people like to make out.

[anotherthing]

AirFarce1

Sound post - I have alluded to the ATSAs/ATCEs in my latest (long) post which I was typing as you replied.

However when you joined the airforce, you knew that you would be moving every couple of years, so its a bit of a weak argument (even though you only get 6 months notice of where your next move will be in the forces, not 6 or more years!)...

Some of these guys have been at MACC for years and years. You cannot really equate the forces to NATS - I state this with my experience as Ex Forces, also moved around lots.


However they are a mobile grade and the move has been on the cards for many years now, so yes, they maybe do have a lack of life experience - especially if all they know is NATS.

[Air.Farce.1]

Well put. A lack of experience does make people very insular. A bit like those mid-west Americans who think USA is the only place on the planet, and content themselves with the proverbial banjo and very close "relations " with their relations :) ( Burt Reynolds movie ..Deliverance :}

[splitduty]

It is becoming fairly obvious that you do not have much support. Probably because many hundreds of ATCO`s have been in a similar situation over the years, and made the most of it. I remember when good old PATCC closed and many received postings to LATCC....there have been many since.
Advice----stop bleating and start planning. They are always ways out. If you really do not want to go to Scotland, start applying for jobs elsewhere. Heathrow tower is always short, as is TC, as is En-route. as is SRG etc,etc. Consider local airfields, such as Liverpool? If you are not rated--then get rated if it means so much to you. Finally, a well qualified chap such as you should have no trouble in securing an Ops post with a local airline or the Airport Authority! Good luck. Keep us posted.

[Not Long Now]

anotherthing, "The 2 centre strategy makes sound business sense. It provides redundancy"....
how exactly? Will there be space in the NPC to accomodate AC and TC should disaster strike in Swanwick?
I've only been at Swanwick a few months but there certainly doesn't seem to be anywhere for Manch or Scottish to slot in should disaster befall either or both of them. There's only a banana to fit in all TC and heaven knows where AC are supposed to go if anything untoward occurs down here.

[anotherthing]

Not Long Now

if some catastrophic event were to occur (highly unlikely I admit but it has to be planned for - it's part of the NATS businees plan/contract) then there would be a facility to provide a much pared down, limited function from the remaining centre.

Do you honestly think that we would have 2 centres if it was not needed? This fallback requirement is probably the biggest reason we have the new centre at Prestwick... otherwise the company would have (and no doubt wrt business plans and cost cutting would have preferred) a single centre strategy. Just think how much money the company could have saved it it had been a viable option.

The new centre at Prestwick has nothing to do with keeping the locals in a job.

[Roffa]

Should we be discussing contingency operations in as much detail on an open forum?

[PPRuNe Radar]

The concept of contingency is in the public domain, including who might go where in general terms. The exact detail should be for company eyes only.

The above is probably as far as we should go in that respect, maybe even a touch too far.

[Gonzo]

We used to have a megaphone in the old tower...we don't have that contingency any more..... :(

[anotherthing]

I've edited my post re contingency plans. Not under instruction from anyone I might add.

I did it not because I think there was anything remotely sensitive in it, either in a security sense or a business sense, (there wasn't in either case - what I mentioned is common sense) but to keep the Mods happy - it is their train set after all :ok:

[Homo Simpson]

We at Manchester were lied to for years regarding a move to anywhere!
Repeatedly we were told that if there was a closure then it would be a move down South not to Scotland.
The fact is that the New Prestwick Centre is being built where it is because of massive political pressure and the hell bent desire to:
1 Not have it move over to the "posh" East coast (Edinburgh basically)
2 Never ever must it move to England (Manchester basically)
Nats will have been given all sorts of incentives to stay put.

Then of course is the disgraceful and illegal banding.
Scottish band 4 so make Manchester the same and move it there. Excellent lots of money saved!

A move to Prestwick is not a life enhancing move for pretty much all of us, which is why we are bailing out and leaving the man power planning in tatters!

Note to those in Prestwick, please dont take it personally but what is going on down here is a very complex and emotive issue.

Quite simply when Manchester moves to Prestwick they will be very very short!

The way management have dealt with the closure and move has been disgraceful and they have only themselves to blame for the ****y mess they are in and will be in come 2010.

Man management and a real understanding of people and how they feel or what they want and this problem would not be anything like it is.

[Loxley]

I just have a couple of genuine questions for the people who are here from Manchester:


1. You don't want to move 4 hours north of Manchester, but you'd be happy to move 4 hours south of Manchester. Why?

2. In response to the answers to question 1, you don't want to move to Scotland as it's 'another country' and yet a significant number of you have moved/in the process of moving/looking to move to Canada. Why?

3. What's banding got to do with any of it? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Manchester weren't the only unit to feel hard done by when banding was introduced so when do you intend to stop flogging that dead horse?

[Homo Simpson]

Regarding Banding it should never have come in!
Its illegal and if NATS management want to be made to look like the devious individuals (along with Prospect)they are in the public arena then they can ignore the equal pay claims at their peril.

[9th Dan Vectors]

Loxley - I am a MACC controller -here is MY view for what it's worth:-

1. I don't want to move. I am happy where I am. The destination in either direction is unappealing personally.

I am not worried about going to Scotland.
The nonsense written on this thread about how awful it is for English folk is quite disappointing. I am sure our new colleagues there will do their utmost to make us feel welcome.

It's political why we are going. The company has incentivised the move which explains when we are going. The mobile grade we signed up for means we have to go. We can't put in a transfer to another unit unless we are promoted (there are more who'd go to to Swanwick than Prestwick if it was a choice and many have asked for this transfer in the past - "if you want the big money shift the big traffic" said a London based union **** out of his bottom explaining how our pay aspirations have increased even though we are Band 4).

It comes down to the fact I'd rather be in Manchester than Ayrshire or Southampton. I'm quite useless at anything else - I enjoy Terminal+Area Radar. So it is tough - I'm going. I accept that. I nor ask or expect any sympathy.

2. You only get one life. I guess for these people they didn't want to move either but when pushed would rather be somewhere of their choosing. I admire their boldness/spirit of adventure. The majority were fine operators and their experience and presence was and is missed.

3. Banding has everything to do with it - for me. Personally it has affected my morale. Our shift patterns are great (the sub-roster included). The move is inevitable. I sympathise with all the other units who feel hard done by with banding. I can assure Hootin' and Loxley that MACC controllers did not vote for it. We were and are vociferous against it. It has divided the union (albeit the majority like their Band 5 status - who could blame them?)

Homo is right in that it was disgraceful. I know ATCOs at units less than Band 4 dislike our wage, it's understandable. But, I am going to whine about it now so you should stop reading if this applies to you and offends.

The Area model is partly based on traffic squared divided by controllers. This means the aircraft a centre controls is much more of a factor than staff. This fact alone makes the whole thing unfair and shames the people who came up with it and those who still defend it.

Even if it was a fair and a linear comparison (instead of exponential) there should be a mechanism and transparent system for going up/down a band. However when union and management colluded on this, they said the model only informed the debate - thereby having their 'out'. The Americans have this transparent grading system I believe.

I don't begrudge my colleagues who are on Band 5. It should be more for the work WE do. I BELIEVE I work AS hard as LAC guys and most of the LTC guys. Some Scottish sectors are as busy as any in the land. We should be on the same wage if it is based on what we do plugged in. We leave the college at the same/similar standard. Base it on cost of living - that should be able to be proved independantly.

Why do SOME Swanwick ATCOs think we are lesser mortals. What evidence do they have to believe we are second rate?

Banding has put this chip on my shoulder but only slightly tarnished the job I love.

I feel I deserve parity yet I think NSL staff at the lower bands deserve more too. Some of their approach mates in LTC get more even though their lower paid towers work twice the traffic. It's all hard to compare. Maybe the gaps between bands should reduce and the gap between NERL units should be based on living costs.

[Roffa]

Should all accountants be paid the same? Plumbers? Lawyers? Bus drivers? Pilots (heaven forbid)? Etc ad nauseum.

Unless one lives in a Communist utopia, how's banding illegal (if you can answer without giving too much of your case away)?

[Gonzo]

The Area model is partly based on traffic squared divided by controllers. This means the aircraft a centre controls is much more of a factor than staff. This fact alone makes the whole thing unfair and shames the people who came up with it and those who still defend it.

Interesting.....some of my colleagues who work at other airports, with whom I've had banding discussions in the past, say that more account should be taken of 'movements divided by controllers', because they think that it provides a more equitable measure of who works harder.

[9th Dan Vectors]

Gonzo.

I did say Area model.

I also said traffic squared divided by ATCOs.

If you were picking apples on your own and were paid for the number of apples you pick;
you'd be happy if the guy who owns the orchard pays a team of three people the numbers of apples they pick divided by three.

Imagine your displeasure when the guy running the orchard decides to pay based on the number of apples picked squared, divided by the number of pickers.

And takes a vote on it!

[AyrTC]

Homo
New Prestwick Centre was built at Prestwick because that is where the Old Scottish Centre is.:ugh: Even I with Sweet F*** All financial talent can see that makes commercial sense.I would have loved to go to Edinburgh thirty years ago but it was not to be. I was posted to Prestwick because historically that is where the Centre was. You can blame all these transatlantic a/c getting lost during the war etc.Read up on it there is an awful lot of history wrapped up in ATC at Prestwick ( I was tempted to add the phrase "laddie" there but I wont ):=

Most of the guys and gals up here want to try and help you settle in (Honest) but it does not help the MACC cause when you start spouting bollocks that the new Centre should be built on the East Coast.

We all look forward to meeting you at Prestchester or Manwick control.

Rgds

AyrTC

[smallonions]

Loxley,

As ex EGCC guy now YYZ guy, from my point of view here would be my answers to 1 & 2.

1. Kids would have been entrenched in run up to exams at time of closure so a move south to the same education system would have been easier for them.

2. If its got to be a different country then lets make it of my choosing re time and place, simple as that.

Add to that were are only on this planet once (there's a debate for Jet Blast) then here seemed to be an adventure worth having a go at.

As for banding, I ain't going there!!!!:=

I also didn't like the idea of paying over inflated price for a house in a possible bidding war with a group of my colleagues. Here I became mortgage free at the time of move and got a lot more house and land for my money. Also a hell of a lot more snow I hasten to add.

That said if EGCC hadn't been closing would I have done it? Never in a million years, I loved it there and would go back in a heartbeat but not now to NPC or for that matter Swanwick.

[Loxley]

Thanks for the answers guys. But another thing I don't understand that's already been mentioned is the length of time it's been known that Manchester wa moving to Prestwick. The earliest I remember is 2000 (because I was in a pub talking to someone about it as England were beating Germany). And that's the earliest I remember. I'm sure it was even before then that it was announced Manchester would be moving to Scotland.

To be fair, you guys have had at least 8 years notice you'll be moving, and by the time you actually do move it will be at least 10 or 11 years notice. It's not as if this move has sneaked up on you from behind is it?

I would argue that you have had more than enough time to work out what to do. Some of you have taken the step and gone to Canada. Some have gone/are going to the College. Some have gone to LACC. Knowing that this was happening for at least 8 years and only now starting to royally kick off about it smacks off head burying in the sand of the highest order until it was far too late.

I accept that Manchester is a nice place to be and all the rest of it, but the fact of the matter is this move has been on the cards for the best part of a decade and, although I know it's becoming a tired old cliche now, you are a mobile grade, you agreed when you joined that you were happy to be posted wherever the company needed you, and they won't be needing you in Manchester because there won't be a Centre there. They will need you at NPC though, hence why you're being posted there.

[anotherthing]

Traffic squared divided by ATCOS? Hmm... so units with lots of overflights (less complex) get more money than a not so busy but much more complex unit?

You could chase your tail forever reference banding - there are always ways and arguments to shoehorn it to suit whicever unit you work at.

Homo Simpson has intimated in his post that banding is one issue why he does not want to move to prestwick i.e. be kept at band 4. Therefore money is an issue.


Some Scottish sectors are as busy as any in the land.

Sorry, not going to get into a bun fight here, but 2 things -

1) are they as busy for as long periods each day?

2) If what you state is true, then why have colleagues of mine who moved north a few years ago (last one was about 12 months ago), all said that it is not as busy or complex?

[250 kts]

So, as well as the prospect of losing staff in numbers from the unit, a morale boosting new set of initiatives seem to be being pursued by some managers/ supervisors at MACC.

- restrictions on summer leave.
- re-juggling the summer leave period.
- extending the sub-roster.

- NICE ONE! - just what we needed.

Was the way this thread was started by Mahaba. We have subsequently heard nothing else from this individual. Were his fears founded or not?

[anotherthing]

250kts

There may well be some genuine reasons for grievances at MACC but the three you mention were discussed and pretty much dismissed by other MACC staff at the beginning of this thread, in particular by TOGO DAWN at post 11.

[smallonions]

One thing that pi**ed me off was the blatant disregard for people by a particular GM that was there.I know of at least one guy who put in a request for a move to Swanwick thru this GM and guess what? HR have no record on file of this letter.(Alledgedly)

I banged on for 2 years before I left asking for a Tower position and I would stay (having been previously valid) and guess what, no joy from said GM.:ugh: Week or 2 before I leave new GM says "we've not done enough to keep you, want a tower job?"

$25000 non refundable deposit on house in Canada, UK house sold? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AyrTC]

Dee Mac

At a Manch " roadshow" several months ago at ScACC I pressed a senior manager to tell me what the new callsign would be, his silence was deafening.
:hmm:
I don't think it will remain as Manchester as every time that is used the ex MACC guys will get misty eyed and think of their homeland:{

If Scottish is used ( which I think it should ) then the ex MACC guys will get misty eyed and think of their homeland:{

Remember when Highland Radar,Border Radar and of course Preston moved/closed down they did not keep their names.

Rgds

AyrTC

[Air.Farce.1]

Remember when Highland Radar,Border Radar and of course Preston moved/closed down they did not keep their names.
AyrTC


And Midland, Eastern, Ulster, Gailles and Southern........those were the days :)

[321now]

What was Pennine Radar, what did it provide, and where was it based?

[rodan]

Pennine Radar was based at MACC, and was a valuable LARS provider to the south of Newcastle (from a ScOACC perspective). Why did it go?

Not LARS in the strict sense of the term, in that they provided a service above FL95. Why did it go? Presumably because somebody realised one day that they could save a wedge of cash by simply pulling the plug and hoping that the ever-obliging Mil would fill the vacuum. And lo, it came to pass.

[Homo Simpson]

Reason people here dont want to move to Prestwick:

Its not a life enhancing move!

I am sure there are many individuals on here that wont like to read that but thats how it is for many many guys and girls down here.

I would wager a lot of money that if the same was happening to Prestwick, where you have your life and you are very happy with it, the annoncement was made to move you somewhere that was not as good you would not be having a party.

There are many underlying issues as well like Banding and the way the move has been dealt with by Management.

Dont anyone at Scottish think we dont like you personally as thats not the case.

You want to know how much management want to go there themselves?
Plenty of them are going for jobs South rather than go up North despite trying to constantly sell it to us.

The whole thing is a bloody joke. Why not build CTC or equivalent up there?

This whole sorry episode is about cost cutting. Band 4 together out of the way and forget about them.

NATS management are a pathetic bunch of office dwelling suits that are more interested in "Putting Spin on the latest management phrase or glossy brochure" rather than engaging with the staff and showing some form of understanding.

The move to Prestwick does not affect them so they dont care how we feel!

[anotherthing]

...where you have your life and you are very happy with it, the annoncement was made to move you somewhere that was not as good you would not be having a party...

And there lies the nub of the argument - personal likes/dislikes.

There were many poeple who did not want to leave West Drayton (I know, it's hard to believe), yet they have.

An argument saying 'I don't want to because it does not suit me, I like where I am' will not wash, whatever its merits to the individual.

This whole sorry episode is about cost cutting. Band 4 together out of the way and forget about them.

Well bugger me sideways til it's Friday... A company that tries to cut costs, whatever next?


Relocation on a mass scale is not a 'NATS only' thing - many multinational companies in the UK have done so before and more will do so in the future.

There are many underlying issues as well like Banding...

What a surprise that that chestnut would rear it's head - why not come clean and admit what the issue/s really is/are with the move - as this progresses it sounds as if you would not be happy whatever happened?

Banding has nothing to do with the move - by trying to use it as part of your argument you weaken any legitimate argument you think you might have.

It becomes more and more apparent that money is the issue - what you really wanted was a move south and a free bump up to band 5 pay, why not admit it - at least then people might give you a bit more respect than they would at the moment when you try to hide motives.

Woe is me, I'm hard done by :ugh:

Will the last person to leave MACC slam the door petulantly and flounce off into the sunset (as well as switch off the lights).

[9th Dan Vectors]

I'm going North from MACC but I think I have earned Band 5 pay for several years now and should get it whether in Manchester or Prestwick.
If you think the jump to Band 5 is free that logically means you believe that the difficulty in validating on your sectors is equal to ours - are you starting to come round?:ok:
The methods used to justify banding were flawed. Thats why the method wasn't published as a formula. One of our guys had to work it out.

Anotherthing, can you not empathise with us at MACC at all? It's an old chestnut because it has affected the morale at MACC for years and hasn't been put right.
Lets say you do sectors 3,4 and 7 and they decide to send you to nPC. Why not, after all you are a mobile grade? Also it will balance the sizes of the units more which was a reason given to us at MACC for going North instead of South.
Even if you were happy with going to Scotland do you expect to be on a Band 5 wage? You'd mark time for years closing the circa £10k p.a. difference in Band 4/5 pay.
And you'd be gutted if the rest of your 'mates' asked the last of you to unplug the Lakes/Wirral banana and flounce off, taking it on the chin like a good chap.

The move to nPC is a separate issue that people understandably are still struggling to come to terms with. A big move like this will always affect morale.
I sure the move from West Drayton was difficult for many and is continuing to be difficult for some. So why demean our woes?
I'm also sure Dee Mac is right in that people will come to terms with Scotland in time, but I'm also sure that that time will be difficult and possibly long for some.

I won't come to terms with banding though! I'm not alone either.

Ayr TC: It will be strange answering Birmingham departures with "Scottish Control"
321 now: There is now a full airway structure between Polehill (near Leeds) up to Newcastle which was added to our North Sector. This sector provides a full Radar Control Service with every aircraft known traffic.
In the past this airspace (the NORCA) was controlled by Pennine Radar at MACC but only giving RIS/RAS meaning lots of traffic was unknown and thus less safe. Once the NORCA became Class A what was left of Pennine (vale of York and the East coast) was most efficiently served by the military (now at Swanwick).

[Roffa]

Wait till they have to deal with Cartus, now that'll really wind them up!

[ZOOKER]

Anotherthing,
Is it not obvious that what the MACC staff really want is to be left where they are to enable them to continue providing the first class service that they do.
Manchester Airport is, I believe, negotiating a new Tower/Approach contract with NATS, involving the provision of a new control tower/approach facility remote from the current terminal area. Does it not make business sense to make the approach facility large enough to support the current APC/MACC operation? It would instantly resolve some of the morale/staffing issues, and secure a long-term NATS foothold at a site where they and their predecessors have provided an ATC service for 50 years, (half the entire history of aviation).
Tesco's business philosophy is to open more outlets, whereas NATS wants to close theirs down. It's madness.
If, as you say. the company is keen on saving money, then as a 'shareholder' (via the PPP), I am curious how much money has been spent on the mousepushers palace at Whitley Business Park. Surely those monies would have better been spent on front line services?

[AyrTC]

9th Dan Vectors Thank you for telling me where Pole Hill is:E:E:ok:

Rgds

AyrTC

[PPRuNe Radar]

Manchester Airport is, I believe, negotiating a new Tower/Approach contract with NATS, involving the provision of a new control tower/approach facility remote from the current terminal area. Does it not make business sense to make the approach facility large enough to support the current operation?

If you really are talking about business sense, then under the current NATS setup, it simply wouldn't. NATS NSL will be providing the Tower/Approach service to Manchester Airport PLC (who will presumably build the facility and lease it back to NSL, as other airport operators do). The MACC setup is part of the NATS NERL empire and so has to be run as a separate operation, since they are part of a different 'company'. That would involve NERL either leasing some expensive space and equipment from Manchester Airport PLC or else moving it's operations to a building it already owns and has bought equipment for (PC or Swanwick).

So, no, it doesn't make business sense at all to leave MACC at Manchester when they have a facility where it can locate to.

The only reason which has merit and justification would be for human reasons, to please the unhappy workforce. Any such merit has to defeat the mobile grade status, business, finance, and contingency reasons which have already been made and decided upon by the NATS Board, and which have resulted in a building being completed and shortly about to be tooled up. You'd be as well pissing in the wind because the argument is already lost.

That's the facts of the matter and I don't predict a change in the NATS position.

[ZOOKER]

Er, with what exactly?
Electronic strips, cardboard ones? If there is a coalmine underneath it, will it support the weight of cardboard strips?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Keep clutching at your straws mate .... if it gives you hope. :ok:

You said there was business sense to stay at Manchester. Precious little that you have demonstrated with your knowledge so far.

Please make the case, maybe NATS haven't thought of it :hmm:


I mix regularly with folks, both socially and professionally at all the ACCs. I've said it before, but I know from talking to them that people at other Area Control units have a great degree of sympathy with you having to move. For a great many, they've had to actually do it themselves. For others, they know it could just have easily been them in your position if the situation had been different. Nobody, wherever they are, wants to uproot and start afresh when they have settled in to an area. It's human nature, and people understand it.

The following is very very generic and doesn't apply to everyone at MACC.

What most people at other ACCs are finding tiresome is the continual attempts by some to stop the move (a waste of your time and energy) when the reasons for NATS to make the move (in business and operational terms) are overwhelming. Being a realist, I simply don't think you can change anything. You never had enough ammunition in the first place, and it's too far down the road now anyway.

They find attempts by some to hang it on the banding issue bandwagon tiresome ... that's a different issue and a totally unrelated battle.

They find the fact that between 8 and 10 years notice to move still doesn't seem enough time for some folks to work out the issue in their heads and stop denying it is going to happen, tiresome. There are other options out there, so bite the bullet and make your choice ... then get on with it and live with your decision whatever that turns out to be. Channel your anger and frustration in to doing just that. It will be a better use of your energies and will help you shape the future you want, if that's not in Prestwick.

They find it tiresome that you think you are a special case and are being dumped on. Every single NATS unit has, at some point in it's history, had managers who haven't exactly shone and been 100% truthful with their staff. Sometimes due incompetence, sometimes due spite, sometimes due laziness, and every other reason you can think of along the way. But throughout the twists and turns of the New Scottish Centre/McNERC/New Prestwick Centre/Sainsburys Car Park* saga, there have been lots and lots of information out there outlining plans, strategies, and decisions. A lot of it appeared in political media such as the press, a lot of it appeared in union bits and pieces, and a lot of it was out there being spread on the jungle drum network. But it was out there and available. I just can't understand how it took until 2006 (or whenever it was) for the folks at MACC to suddenly discover what was widely known throughout NATS up and down the country for several years before that.

(* Delete as necessary)

Of course you are entitled to have a whinge and get things of your chest. The same happened with the move to Swanwick (for both LACC and TC). But ultimately, everyone accepted it was going to happen, and then made their preparations for the move. Perhaps we are being unfair and you need more time for this process to work it's way through. Unfortunately the impression I get is that there is a touch of hysteria about and some people will be screaming and kicking right up until the joint operation in Prestwick becomes operational. And they will try a spot of rabble rousing along the way. That's their choice, but overegging things will simply erode the sympathy your NATS colleagues throughout the country have for you.

Have a long hard think about what you want to do in the future. And if you don't like the options NATS is offering, do something else. This could be either applying for another post at a location of your choice in NATS, or leaving and doing ATC elsewhere in the world, or even a career in a totally different job. The time you spend arguing the toss about why the move shouldn't happen is wasting your time to position yourself for your decision. You ain't going to stop the move, that's for sure.

[Hootin an a roarin]

""Manchester Airport is, I believe, negotiating a new Tower/Approach contract with NATS, involving the provision of a new control tower/approach facility remote from the current terminal area. Does it not make business sense to make the approach facility large enough to support the current APC/MACC operation? It would instantly resolve some of the morale/staffing issues, and secure a long-term NATS foothold at a site where they and their predecessors have provided an ATC service for 50 years, (half the entire history of aviation). "

I know it has been rumoured for years but this time it looks like we might finally lose the Manc contract. It isn't a secret that the last negotiators made a pigs ear of the contract and NATS is losing money on the tower/app contract daily. To make it profitable means a major change and Manc PLC are not happy with the costs thus opening the door to others. Leaving the area centre there would not make any sense at all in this case.

As for banding everyone below band 5 is unhappy. We all work hard in our own ways but the 'model' was boll*cks, biased and unfortunately the greedy majority in the Union said yes please at the detrement of the 'underlings' that got left behind.

[45 before POL]

Yes they may have messed up previous contract negotiations and squeezed those financial goolies......but at the end of the day a company has to run this at a profit. Secondly, how many nats personnel would stay, which would be essential for another company as this is not a minor airport, that you can just throw a load of atcos in and validate in a few months. this is is not straightforward for manch and could cause major disruption:E

[oneowl]

PP Radar

"Manch aint going to stop the move, that's for sure." yep I agree. However I wouldn't be so sure as to rule out a significant delay to the move into that lovely shiny new building in Jan 2010. Contrary to what 'people' want you to believe, there IS a point where the unit ( Manchester sectors) will not function without causing unacceptable delays to the company and giving NATS a situation not too dissimilar to the unrest over the water in Ireland ( by the way guys, we're watching closely and admire your unity. Stick to it!)

This position although not black and white, far from it, is getting closer by the week. People are getting pi##ed off with being crapped on overlooked constantly by NATS management and ARE deciding to look at alternative channels. The unit runs on AAVA's and long hours sat in front of the tubes and people are getting tired of it. Granted, you will always get the young energetic ( and still enthusiastic newly valids ) doing the OT because they are all up to their eyeballs in debt/mortgage and have never had the chance to earn such good money. It will be a critical time for the unit when the current AAVA agreement expires.

As well as people persuing careers outside NATS, there ARE lots of ATC applications in all over the world on a scale much, much larger than management are aware of and people are receiving offers. Many are still in the early stages but the fact is that it is out of NATS hands how many of these applications turn into offers. NATS only have control over the many applications to go down South which have been in for years. ( I think the phrase previously used on this thread was pi~~ing into the wind:ugh:) Through no fault of their own trainees aren't validating as quick as they used to due to the grounding they get from our now abbreviated college course or because they have been, shall we say 'grilled' at LACC. This previously well oiled machine is running extremely dry.

It does give us hope to keep clutching at straws. People are not wasting time and energy trying to 'stop the move' as you put it, but facts cannot be overlooked. Sorry if you find it tiresome, I couldn't stand to lose more friends. Keep the healthy advise flowing. We really need that, just like a one way ticket up the M6.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Some good points there.

Anyone deciding that they don't want to make the move and are making alternative plans get healthy respect. They obviously realise that the future is going to happen and are taking control of their lives. I don't think anyone up the road in Scotland would take it as an insult to them if people decide not to come, but would accept that for some people the move is not one they wish to make ... whatever the reasons are should be of no concern except to those making the decision.

There are certainly some interesting times ahead for NATS management, especially when the actual number of people who are willing to accept the move becomes clear. As you say, delay in moving MACC might be inevitable. Or maybe a limited number of core sectors will be moved up and some of the peripheral airspace carved up by other units/sectors. You can bet there will be lots of options up their sleeves.

But folks at MACC should remember that there are also lots of battles to take place at other units as well, on local issues which affect them, so you can't expect everyone to be 100% interested in the MACC situation. Manning levels, AAVA agreements, WP negotiations, and a raft of issues are all coming to the fore in various places. And like our friends in the IAA, there is a lot of resistance growing to anything which eats in to free time, and the fact that NATS are constantly expecting work to be done for little or no reward.

This could be the summer when we all finally have the balls to stand up and stop being pushed around.

Aren't we all lucky our powder is still dry !!! :{

[anotherthing]

PPrune Radar has eloquently and patiently put the argument across at post 143. More power to your elbow sir!

The fact is you do have issues, no one has ever denied that, but as stated, they are not vastly different than those met by many, many people before.

Let me put the cat amongst the pigeons here... How many (percentage) of the younger generation - lets say 40 years old or below - working at MACC are ATCOs who for whatever reason did not succeed in validating at another unit before being sent to MACC? I bet it is a high proportion.
So, instead of finding yourself out on your ear, the company paid you to move to a unit, thus ensuring you remained in a highly paid (even Band 4 counts as that) job.

How many of those same people are now whingeing about how unjust this companies ethics are because they are being moved (and it is happening, stop kidding yourselves)?

One owl wrote:

The unit runs on AAVA's and long hours sat in front of the tubes and people are getting tired of it. Granted, you will always get the young energetic ( and still enthusiastic newly valids ) doing the OT because they are all up to their eyeballs in debt/mortgage and have never had the chance to earn such good

I'm afraid that argument does not wash when put up against other arguments... MACC is far from unique in this situation.

If you want to put your money where your mouths are (literally), then work to rule. Stop doing AAVAs, don't renew you second (above Minimum Unit Requirements) validations. Then maybe the company will listen to you and pay you more. Until you start to do that, then I'm afraid your arguments are diluted.

[9th Dan Vectors]

Anotherthing.
I am not a re-tread as 'they' like to call them but I'm glad I went straight to MACC especially because of the attitude and culture that you clearly prove (you'll say "cat amongst the pigeons" was only being devil's advocate but reads quite indicatively as your belief).
I don't know the exact figures or the rough ones. I do know of the percentage that were, the vast majority validated without a problem and some had been treated quite disgracefully by (a minority of nasty) mentors before the 'chop' at AC (West Drayton and Swanwick).
Their validation can be attributed to the more compassionate and decent treatment at MACC or the extra hours of live training accrued at both units (probably both). They are fine operators and should not feel ashamed at failing down South and are your equal unequivocally. Not many gripes at TC training though.

[ZOOKER]

Good post Dan.
Could it be that the "minority of nasty mentors" feel that an artificially-generated lack of 'newly valids' allows more opportunity for their own AAVAs?
Surely "a minority of nasty mentors" is not acceptable at the flagship unit of a "World Leader in Air Traffic Management" and is something that The Red Barron should investigate without delay.
Come on Paul, smoke 'em out! :E

[PPRuNe Radar]

Surely "a minority of nasty mentors" is not acceptable at the flagship unit of a "World Leader in Air Traffic Management" and is something that The Red Barron should investigate without delay.
Come on Paul, smoke 'em out!

Absolutely ... they don't have any place in a decent ATC setup :ok:

But shouldn't the OJTI competence scheme be flushing them out ??

[anotherthing]

Dan and Zooker

You really do see skull-duggery in everything don't you? The 'cat amongst the pigeons' was me being genuinely inquisitive.

I couldn't give a gnats todger if someone is a retread once, twice or three times over.

In fact I will go as far as to say that I have the utmost respect for ATCOs who have the spirit and determination to get back up on their feet, face the prospect of having to start afresh at a new unit, with new faces, a new environment, yet still manage to validate. That takes guts and in my book (for what its worth) is a bloody good trait.

My question was merely trying to point out that 'big, bad, nasty' NATS often bends over backwards to help people out - none more so than trainee ATCOs. This is overlooked when other issues come up.

Why do NATS re-tread people? It makes sound business sense - a pot of money, time and effort has already been spent on these people - it is in NATS and the trainees interests to try again. Obviously not everyone gets the 2nd (or 3rd) chance as it is deemed that they are, unfortunately, not a 'good bet'.

This same business sense is being applied to the 2 centre stategy, many of the reasons for certain decisions have been stated above, particularly well by PPRuNe Radar.

9th Dan Vectors - we agree on some things... AC have had (in the not too distant past) a poor reputation for training. This seems to be getting better (a lot of people have put in a lot of effort to bring this about). I'm glad to say that TC (where I work), has generally had a better reputation.

I also wholeheartedly agree that a big factor as to why people who get moved succeed is because they have had the benefit of the extra training... extra time however gained is beneficial.

As for the more compassionate training - quite probably true... when you are faced with a trainee you know has failed elsewhere, it would only be a complete w:mad::mad:ker who would not try to build their confidence up with lots of 'positive stroking'.

Maybe because (and this is not egotism), LAC/LTC/EGLL are not usually given 're-treads' from other units, this explains why some people have less compassion than at units such as MACC. It's not a great excuse, but quite possibly a valid one.

By the time MACC or wherever have got their hands on the trainee, the poor bugger has had the crap kicked out of their self confidence - as much by self flagellation than by what has occured in the OPs room.

What I do not agree with you with is: attitude and culture that you clearly prove You don't know me, but I am probably one of the most amenable people you could meet... I worked my nuts of to even get to start live training (by the skin of my teeth due, in no small part to the incompetence of the system - as was finally acknowledged by the system)...because of this I have very strong opinions about the quality of training (something I have extensive previous experience in as well and can therefore actually comment on with some knowledge).
I do not have a superior attitude; but I do have opinions that may not sit with some people re banding issues etc (for instance do a search for my login name and you will see that although I think banding was done very badly, I do believe that there should be pay differentials between some units).

Zooker - you are talking out of your rear end I am afraid when it comes to Could it be that the "minority of nasty mentors" feel that an artificially-generated lack of 'newly valids' allows more opportunity for their own AAVAs?
complete and utter horsesh:mad:t and completely ridiculous for several reasons, amongst which:

ATCOs working at units that rely heavily on AAVAs get severely shafted (as you should know as MACC is one of them). The low number of staff means that sectors cannot always be opened and the ATCOs on duty are made to work much harder, with less breaks. To the office worker, this might sound fair enough - 90 minutes with a 30 minute break sounds easy until you realise that for that 90 mins you are working your socks off. Keeping that sort of routine up is mentally and ultimately physically exhausting

One of your colleagues said earlier that MACC relies on AAVAs - why is that? Is it because - the "minority of nasty mentors" feel that an artificially-generated lack of 'newly valids' allows more opportunity for their own AAVAs?
Of course it isn't; it's because you do not have enough people due to the fact that the training pipeline has not provided you with the raw material - exactly the same as in LAC.

It's widely recognised that the service delivery of the college has, in the past, fallen short... that's why there is such a clamour to improve things, both for the college instructors, the students and the units.

As for - Surely "a minority of nasty mentors" is not acceptable at the flagship unit of a "World Leader in Air Traffic Management" and is something that The Red Barron should investigate without delay.
You are partially correct. However it is not the Red Barrons job to gun them down - it is the job of the watch and unit training teams.

The very generalisation you give that I or my colleagues are unprofessional is a complete insult and the exact opposite of the truth.

We do have people who should not be OJTIs - just the same as any other unit, but they are in the minority fortunately. I can vouch for my colleagues on my watch at TC that we work bloody hard to try to do the best for the student - None of the poeple I work with on a day to day basis enjoys it when we have to mark people down, but sometimes you must.

I'm sure OJTIs on every other watch feels the same way - apart from the few 'bad apples' that crop up everywhere. To genrealise as you do is not just an insult, its an immature comment :=