Irish ATC wages/conditions [Archive]

niknak

28th Dec 2007, 20:09

An aquaintance who is already a jobbing ATCO for the IAA seems think that they'd only discuss salaries if they were going to make a job offer, i.e. you'd have to go through the interview process.
He also said that if they were three year contracts, it's highly likely that it's because they haven't recruited/trained enough of their own recently and it's to cover that shortfall, although there doesn't appear anything to be on the IAA site at the moment.
Word is that although they may have to pay a decent salary to get the experienced atcos they temporarily need, they wouldn't pay relocation costs and you wouldn't be allowed to join the pension scheme.
Would it be worth anyone relocating half way around the world to go there for such a relatively short time? given that the cost of living in Ireland is at least on a par with most of the UK (i.e high), it seems not.
But with plenty of cheap flights to and from the UK, anyone from NATS could commute if they could bear it, thereby taking a very pleasant sabbatical I would have thought.

Aquafina

28th Dec 2007, 21:19

Hmmm. Rather interesting. What I've found on http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/vacancy.asp is:

Vacancies

There are no vacancies at present, however, if you would like further information on the types of job for which we recruit or to be added to our mailing list, please contact us at or send your CV to:
Human Recourses Division
Aviation House
Hawkins Street
Dublin 2
Or email [email protected]
Please note that sending a CV or merely expressing an interest in a particular career does not constitute an application.
Click here (http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/career.asp) for further information.

alwaysmovin

29th Dec 2007, 09:21

' a very pleasant sabattical'....I don't think so... I would definitely talk to some of the controllers especially at Shannon (where you would probably be placed) before you decide on taking up any offers..... .
Rumour is that very long shifts ,100 night duties per year and inability to get leave have led to an all time low in morale in shannon (not sure about Dublin).

irishatco

29th Dec 2007, 16:03

there is no official iaa recruitment drive for direct entry atcos at the moment, however, there is a word of mouth thing going on. for reasons that i wont get into, the iaa are contacting anyone that drops in a cv, or contacts them directly, to see if they would be interested in joining them for a fixed period of time .... 2/3 years - depending on who you talk to.

alwaysmovin has got it mostly right - but the max no. of rostered nights is about 90 per annum.

the iaa recently held a competition for cadets, with a view to starting 2 classes of 24 in 2008. they have only now realised that they cannot release the staff from ops to train this intake ( almost all instructors rotate from ops to training!) so 1 class will start in february, and a second class of 24 is in a holding pool with no definate start date.
the direct entry atcos are to bolster the numbers until the cadets come on line.the iaa and the atco union have had some negotiations on this matter. the atco union view is that once the cadets are trained, the direct entries will not get a renewed contract, as the cadet scheme should continue to provide the required staff!

as for remuneration, i dont have the exact figures, but my understanding is that the starting point of the atco scale will be the base for the direct entries ( about €60k ) with 31 days annual leave - if you can take them!
those figures are open to correction.

morale is low, leave is almost non existant, the roster is tough,in fact there have been 4 different rosters in as many years, to try to fix the staff shortfalls, and another one being planned for april. however dont take my word for it, if you contact the iaa, www.iaa.ie (http://www.iaa.ie), i'm sure that they will paint a better picture for you!
good luck;)

White dog

29th Dec 2007, 20:24

I appreciate that in order to specify your remuneration expectations you need to understand the structure of the remuneration package. We were looking for an indication of overall remuneration expected rather than rather than detailing a specific package.
This is a new departure for us and a learning experience in relation to structuring a realistic remuneration package. We are proposing a basic salary plus an allowance for shift work and Office Holiday attendance plus membership of a Defined Benefit Pension Scheme.
On completion of the contract period the pension could be preserved or transferred to another pension scheme if appropriate.
Annual Leave would be a maximum of 34 days p/a.
Paid Sick Leave benefits would also apply.
The positions on offer are operational shift positions in Shannon ACC on 3-year fixed-term contracts. You would be operating as an en-route controller handling traffic on the interface between Europe and the North Atlantic.
Rosters are under negotiation at the moment and the outcome will probably be either a 6on/3off roster or a 5on/3off roster. If the latter, duties would be longer and possibly include a time-adjustment duty. Rosters normally start with an evening duty and end with a night duty in Shannon. ATCOs are required to work 34.75 hours in position per week less fatigue breaks.
It is not envisaged that we would include Health Insurance cover, rental or travel allowances.
It is not planned to offer permanent employment on completion of the contract.
The intention is to start mid Q1, 2008 but we may have some flexibility on that.

schoolkid

29th Dec 2007, 21:09

but still no money mentioned.......

Still not even a hint of what the renumeration package looks like..surely somebody can point us all in the right direction at least.:E

The Jolly Roger

30th Dec 2007, 10:36

....What can I tell you...morale IS low.....Leave IS non-existent.....Roster IS crap......They had pay negotiations recently and amidst all the promises from our union that a realistic increase of 10-15% would be put to the members for acceptance, a mere 5% was offered..and they want us to accept it!!! Of course I'm open to correction on this. Nights are tough...1st night starts at 12 midnight...and ends at 930am....your knackered!!! 2nd night starts at 9pm and ends at 8am...your knackered!!! Now pay...who knows what they'll start off for direct entries...but you can bet your bottom dollar that it won't even come close to what other providers are giving....salaries at the moment range between 55,000Euro to 100,000Euro (if your working there 150 years!!!!) but those figures all depend on options on getting paid for office holidays or taking the days and a wee bit of overtime, which is plentiful at the minute.....Knowing the I double A, that 3 year fixed contract is more than likely to be extended...we simply don't have enough staff on right now...even with the new cadet classes, I really doubt that they will cover retirements in the next few years....There are a few younger people thinkin of jumpin ship too...oppurtunities are there abroad..why not take them.....I think the IAA will need to make the package extremely attractive.

eventuallyitstrue

30th Dec 2007, 11:16

The Jolly Roger,

Check your PM

ferris

30th Dec 2007, 18:05

As someone who moves around a bit, I am at a loss as to why the IAA think that offering a short-term contract at less dollars than for permanent staff will attract the right candidates?

Short-term contracts need to offer a premium; surely that's a basic contracting principal?

They must also be aware that if they are fishing in the 'global marketplace', they have to offer packages that are competitive with whats on offer in that marketplace? eg, eurocontrol, middle east etc.

54north15west

30th Dec 2007, 19:37

As another Irish atco i can confirm everything that has been said here by the Jolly Roger and Irish atco...IF :uhoh:you are interested go in with your eyes open:eek:...the rosters are tough,leave is rarer than golddust morale is non exsistent and bodering on militant.:mad:..knowing the IAA and there detachment from reality expect the pay offer to be low and any promises made to you will not be honoured....:=

54north15west

30th Dec 2007, 19:45

Short-term contracts need to offer a premium; surely that's a basic contracting principal?
Yep

They must also be aware that if they are fishing in the 'global marketplace', they have to offer packages that are competitive with whats on offer in that marketplace? eg, eurocontrol, middle east etc. There is no way the IAA:ugh::ugh::ugh: will compete with the money that eurocontrol or the middle east can offer you.....also do not expect that once the contract has finished that you will be kept on either

alwaysmovin

31st Dec 2007, 07:10

The low pay is quite ironic considering rumours have it that the IAA themselves got 2 and a half times that figure from other providers for IAA controllers loaned out.....so no excuse for not knowing the going rate....

irishatco

31st Dec 2007, 10:11

alwaysmovin makes an excellent point. at the risk of thread drift, or the requirement for a new thread dedicated to the iaa, i think that this analogy sums up the iaa, and therefore its relevant to this particulat thread.

in recent times the iaa has shipped out controllers to germany, holland, and south africa - the south african and dutch contracts ended this year, 2007 - so them stating that this is a new departure for them is technically correct, and yet completely untrue. bottom line is they want to do this as cheap as they can. this sums up the iaa in a nutshell - demand highest standards, pay as little as possible. the fact that the ceo is an accountant by profession, should not surprise anyone.

personnaly i would welcome and benefit from direct entries coming, for the reasons already stated by my colleagues in shannon. but with the actual lack of a package ie no relocation etc, it seems that you make your own way here, your own way home, any paid flights home during the contract? a designated person to help with accomodation etc? these things are fairly standard everywhere else

i wouldn't recommend it, nor have i recommended it to anyone out there.

best of luck if you can negotiate a good package for yourself. but beware of verbal offers, and also vague promises. the iaa have a habit of writing words like

" a bonus may be paid " or

"such and such may be done/paid at the discretion of the company"

you will be told verbally that these mean they will happen - this is not always the case. feel free to pm if you have any queries.

:ok:

nats

31st Dec 2007, 13:43

Has taking on extra airspace over the last couple of years added to your staffing problems?

The Jolly Roger

1st Jan 2008, 11:42

taking the airspace has definitely attributed to the staffing problems....its like buying a lot of land and building houses on it with no roads, or services....the iaa should have seen this coming for years. They are, in effect, becoming a little bit of a shambles!!! If your really interested in joining the iaa, negotiate ANY type of contract....get it in writing and then negotiate again.....They are very very short and we need controllers....Any one from the iaa here from the top....listen up.....

alwaysmovin

2nd Jan 2008, 15:15

I feel very sorry for all the staff in Shannon who are so overworked but I hope that nobody takes up the offer of a 3 year contract......and if you do, make sure you get a bloody good solicitor to check and double check everything......on that note i'm off to see mine right now :-)

rocky01

4th Jan 2008, 17:34

Quote;
"best of luck if you can negotiate a good package for yourself. but beware of verbal offers, and also vague promises. the iaa have a habit of writing words like"

" a bonus may be paid " or

"such and such may be done/paid at the discretion of the company"

Well put "irishatco". However, as a recently signed up forum member with a particular interest in this topic, I have some questions for you.

If there is a real need for direct entry ATCOs, why is the union making it so hard to agree a contract for them?:confused: Surely it's members will benefit from the extra staff....sooner is better than later. no?

I was told that there were several vacancies in EIDW, for all sectors, is this true?

Why would any currently employed ATCO, apply for a 2-3 year contract, joining at the lowest point of the pay scale? (Not very tempting!):{

Since submittimg my CV last October, all I have is an ack. email!!!:ugh: I am slowly losing interest...

Whaddya think???

Regards,

Sylvester
"Own nav is best"

The Jolly Roger

4th Jan 2008, 18:30

well rocky01.....my thoughts exactly.....I wish somebody would get their skates on whether it be the union or management...both are making it very difficult for staff...WE NEED CONTROLLERS....GET A BLOODY MOVE ON....Most providers have similar experiences getting controllers and negotiating contracts, with one major difference...they get on with it....the Irish just.....seem.....to.....lounge....about and.....sure....everything will....sort ......itself out.....in.........due time!!!! Now where was I??????

The IAA MUST know they have to be competeitive to get controllers in the door....the weather in this place is already crap, offer a good deal similar to other providers and at least your in with some sort of a chance....:ok:

badback

4th Jan 2008, 19:34

If there is a real need for direct entry ATCOs, why is the union making it so hard to agree a contract for them?:confused: Surely it's members will benefit from the extra staff....sooner is better than later. no?

I was told that there were several vacancies in EIDW, for all sectors, is this true?

Depends on the conditions under which you join...there is a real fear that direct entry contract staff could be used to undermine industrial action taken by union members for example...

Can't see why the IAA needs contract staff AND an intake of students, why not offer permanant direct entry positions to suitably qualified staff and save a fortune on training cadets?

There are staff shortages in Dublin, though why you would want to work a cycle of 6/3, 6/3, 7/2 I'll never know (that is the proposed roster from management)

Add that to the derisory Labour Court pay ruling (5% plus a third party ruling on the value of ongoing change) and the inevitable assault on the pension (it will be coming) and its a great place to work so it is...

54north15west

4th Jan 2008, 19:44

Depends on the conditions under which you join...there is a real fear that direct entry contract staff could be used to undermine industrial action taken by union members for example...:*
Can't see why the IAA needs contract staff AND an intake of studentsAs always bad planning
There are staff shortages in Dublin, though why you would want to work a cycle of 6/3, 6/3, 7/2 I'll never know (that is the proposed roster from management)
Management can take a run and jump for them seleves:mad::mad::mad:
Add that to the derisory Labour Court pay ruling (5% plus a third party ruling on the value of ongoing change) and the inevitable assault on the pension (it will be coming) and its a great place to work so it is... :ugh::ugh::ugh::bored::(:yuk:

alwaysmovin

4th Jan 2008, 20:01

I think what irishatco forgot to mention is that the union and staff have said that they were understaffed for quite some time but management disagreed. Also the staff were asked to take on extra airspace, new roosters etc in return for payments and other deals which apparently the IAA have conveniently forgotten about. The IAA and the union seem to be permanently in the labour court.
Unfortunately the IAA have the attitiude that controllers are just a drain on their finances. Now it has come to the stage where peole are starting to leave(I being one of them), there are also a few female controllers who are pregnant and will be on maternity leave for the busy summer period and traffic is also way up. Anyone with a bit of common sense would have seen it coming.....but there lies the problem with the IAA. I also don't think they care just how fed up staff are with the way they are treated. Having talked to a few old colleagues lately I'm surprised just how many are thinking of jumping ship.

badback

4th Jan 2008, 20:16

I also don't think they care just how fed up staff are with the way they are treated. Having talked to a few old colleagues lately I'm surprised just how many are thinking of jumping ship.

A mass exodus is the kick in the ar*e that they need.

ferris

5th Jan 2008, 10:04

I get the sense that the union doesn't want contractors to come in on inflated contracts- is that correct? (because if it isn't, then disregard all that follows).

I can understand a union wanting to protect conditions of employment (hour limits etc). However, wouldn't it be a good tactic to prompt the IAA to offer way more money than the current staff are on (if they are serious about getting the bodies they need) to contractors. Then sit beside these contractors (who are on way more money) for twelve months. Then sit down with the bosses and open negotiations for retaining your own staff with "well, sir, these contractors, thats all fine and dandy, but if you want to retain us permanent staff, lets talk about parity....."

It always amuses me when people think the way forward is to stop other people getting something, when it might be better to assist other people to get something, and then ask for the same in return. Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

The Jolly Roger

5th Jan 2008, 10:16

"It always amuses me when people think the way forward is to stop other people getting something, when it might be better to assist other people to get something, and then ask for the same in return. Or am I barking up the wrong tree?"...

Nope...your dead right there ferris....but we've been burned doing this before....We the controllers assisted the IAA in a number of things like NOTA (airspace we got from Her Majesty), Licencing, Approaches moving to Dublin, including staff moving...the list can go on. The IAA promised us a pay hike in return...ahemmmmmm...donde esta? Did it fall off the radar???? So we are a little apprehensive about doin anything like this again....promises, promises, promises...ehhh

ferris

5th Jan 2008, 10:37

There's a big difference between doing something to help out management in the expectation that they will fix you up later, and doing something to help yourselves.

rocky01

5th Jan 2008, 12:20

Some really interesting insights there my friends.
As an outsider trying to get in, those last few posts are very telling.:(
Seems to me that politics rules, and logic takes a back seat.

I for one, would loath being taken on, on a higher salary (albeit temporary contract etc...) than those already there. I imagine the atmosphere would stink pretty soon among permanent staff. Its only human (Irish)!!! to begrudge others better conditions.

As for the shifts, well they do appear onorous, but the unions no doubt had a hand in their development at some stage, so no point in bitchin' about them here. Anyway, is there no leeway among the teams, to ease the pressure?

Any other thoughts would be welcome. For now, the advice seems to be keep away, but are there any agendas being played out on this thread folks?

Regards

Sylvester
"Own nav is best"

Track Coastal

5th Jan 2008, 12:46

There's a big difference between doing something to help out management in the expectation that they will fix you up later,
Never a truer word spoken!! :ok:

Have that T-shirt.:mad:

The Jolly Roger

5th Jan 2008, 13:44

Ferris and Track Coastal are right...What I was trying to get across is that we would simply be looking out for new entry controllers both cadets and direct...We don't want to see newcomers end up with a bum deal only to come in and bring morale down even further. Contracts, both existing and new HAVE to be protected....the IAA already want to look at pensions....Well I'm sorry, they ain't touchin mine!!

ferris

5th Jan 2008, 17:52

I have no doubt that any management would see contractors as a method of making productivity gains, and the union is very correct in ensuring that any new contract doesn't undermine conditions.
Use the same tactics. Use new contracts as a way of improving remuneration (permanent remuneration). Especially if the contracting process turns into a farce (which it will if they dont offer the right money). Just think about whether denying contractors more money works for you, or against you.....

* I am not a potential candidate at the current offer, and nor is anyone else that I am in contact with.

Gu'luck.

badback

5th Jan 2008, 22:22

I get the sense that the union doesn't want contractors to come in on inflated contracts- is that correct?Not entirely.

The union were happy to negotiate on the basis that direct entry controllers would join the existing pay scale at a suitable point (and I've yet to hear anyone suggest that's at point 1) and asked the IAA why they couldn't offer permanent positions to the incoming staff.

The company cannot make its mind up whether single person sectors will happen in the coming years, and so won't make any concrete decisions. What the union do not want to see happen is 3 year contracts being offered, then renewed for another 3 years...and so on, and so on...

Use the same tactics. Use new contracts as a way of improving remuneration (permanent remuneration).Wouldn't work that way I'm afraid, ultimately every industrial dispute works it way through the state's industrial relations mechanism, the Labour Court has already let us down on recent pay negotiations, no chance staff will trust them to deliver as you suggest.

As for the shifts, well they do appear onorous, but the unions no doubt had a hand in their development at some stage, so no point in bitchin' about them here

Fair enough, you walk in with your eyes closed...the union have no part to play in that proposed roster, and have spent the last 5 years fending off management roster proposals that have tried to take away the existing 5/3 cycle in Dublin.

rocky01

6th Jan 2008, 15:12

badback

Thanks for that. I for one do not wish to have an uncertain future, no more than anyone else I suspect. So, long term permanent will always beat "3 year contract" any day.

As for the roster, from previous experience, management will always chip away at perceived staff benefits, it's their "raison d'etre" so to speak. So, I support any union action to protect pay and conditions.

I shall, of course, watch the small print in any contract offered. Question is, will there be any offers soon, to those of us interested?

My thanks for the numerous contributers to this thread.

Regards,

Sylvester
"Own nav is best"

rocky01

16th Jan 2008, 13:24

Hi folks,

Has anyone heard anything from IAA sources about these contract jobs?
It's been very quiet on the grapevine....!!:rolleyes:

Sylvester
"own nav is best"

rack 'n stack

16th Jan 2008, 20:49

In response to Rocky - I received the response below when I emailed the "careers" link on the IAA site. hope this helps..

Thank you for your expression of interest in a position as an Air Traffic Controller with the Irish Aviation Authority.

The Authority is currently proceeding with the recruitment of a number of 3-year fixed-term contract posts for rated Air Traffic Controllers. These posts will be full-time operational posts on shift rotation.We will not offer permanent employment on completion of the contract.

If you wish to be considered for such a contract please confirm your interest by return attaching an updated CV giving a brief outline of your rating and controller career history. Please also indicate your expectation in relation to remuneration for this position.

rocky01

17th Jan 2008, 08:41

Thanks rack n stack,

That's exactly the email and letter I received myself back in early December,
since then....nothing.

Depends on your interpretation of "soon" in IAA parlance I suppose....

Ah well...back to the grindstone......:{

Sylvester
"own nav is best"

Yahweh

17th Jan 2008, 08:45

Rocky,

Just out of curiosity, are you military ATC or ATC for a well known private airfield within skipping distance of Dublin?

rocky01

17th Jan 2008, 09:42

Yaweh,

Is there any way I can answer that without giving the game away?

Don't think so!:uhoh:

Ok then, I used to work at ...:mad:..., and I now work at...:mad:...

Clever eh???:p...:D...:=

PrognosisNegative

28th Feb 2018, 15:19

bumping the topic, 10 years is a long enough moratorium! :D

So - hi guys, anyone here with any information about recent IAA notice about Direct Entry for Dublin Terminal?

Also, how have things changed for ATCOs in IAA in tha last 10 years, a lot of stuff has happened since, LoL :D

P.S.: first post!

PrognosisNegative

3rd Mar 2018, 12:02

sooooo... what, no ATCOs from Ireland on this forum? :D

Satellite Man

13th Mar 2018, 09:58

PrognosisNegative

13th Mar 2018, 11:36

i believe quoted post is more than 10 years old, that's why i asked if there's anyone here who knows about current ATC situation in ireland :)

M2A

13th Mar 2018, 19:24

i believe quoted post is more than 10 years old, that's why i asked if there's anyone here who knows about current ATC situation in ireland :)

I too am interested in this. Anyone who knows anything about aviation and ATC in particular, knows that the good ole days are gone. However, methinks that sooner or later, the system simply has to give in.

I've spent the better part of the last 10 years following trends in ATC, and one thing has certainly become more than obvious over the past few of those same years - just about every place around the big blue world of ours has fudged it up with prioritizing hiring qualified personnel. Essentially all of them are now in the "can't hire much at the moment, cause we don't have enough people to train AND work the scopes at the same time". Where will that lead us sooner or later? If we look at the state of the world and many an industry in those same past 10 years as any indication, it may all just crash and we'll do away with 99% of aviation OR if a desire to keep flying stays, the ANSP's will have little choice but to offer what needs to be offered. Who will train the new generations? Who knows.

As far as IAA goes, they've had their SCP for some time now. I myself applied in late 2014 and was invited to the testing in the spring of 2016. Naturally enough, I declined to take part, as they hadn't changed their stance on just about any aspect of providing a meaningful offer worthy of an ATCOs training and career.

I used to have a strong yearning not for aviation, but for this line of work specifically. I passed on the idea of professional flying long before even thinking about it, after I realized just what junky environment the pilot profession had turned into. Thanks to just about everything that has gone down in the recent years in the field of ATC, even after giving it just about every possible chance, benefit of the doubt and every last Joule of energy, the same has recently occurred with any former desire of mine to "work" in this area, even if given an opportunity(which is of course a whole different story in itself).

Satellite Man

14th Mar 2018, 12:57

I too am interested in this. Anyone who knows anything about aviation and ATC in particular, knows that the good ole days are gone. However, methinks that sooner or later, the system simply has to give in.

I've spent the better part of the last 10 years following trends in ATC, and one thing has certainly become more than obvious over the past few of those same years - just about every place around the big blue world of ours has fudged it up with prioritizing hiring qualified personnel. Essentially all of them are now in the "can't hire much at the moment, cause we don't have enough people to train AND work the scopes at the same time". Where will that lead us sooner or later? If we look at the state of the world and many an industry in those same past 10 years as any indication, it may all just crash and we'll do away with 99% of aviation OR if a desire to keep flying stays, the ANSP's will have little choice but to offer what needs to be offered. Who will train the new generations? Who knows.

As far as IAA goes, they've had their SCP for some time now. I myself applied in late 2014 and was invited to the testing in the spring of 2016. Naturally enough, I declined to take part, as they hadn't changed their stance on just about any aspect of providing a meaningful offer worthy of an ATCOs training and career.

I used to have a strong yearning not for aviation, but for this line of work specifically. I passed on the idea of professional flying long before even thinking about it, after I realized just what junky environment the pilot profession had turned into. Thanks to just about everything that has gone down in the recent years in the field of ATC, even after giving it just about every possible chance, benefit of the doubt and every last Joule of energy, the same has recently occurred with any former desire of mine to "work" in this area, even if given an opportunity(which is of course a whole different story in itself).

Working conditions (and pay) in ATC are going downhill. This can only lead to industrial action and strikes. Some governments and ANSPs have been playing dirty tricks for years and it's time to respond accordingly.