Mode S Mar 08

[dublinpilot]

I understand that while most VFR flights in the UK will be exempted from mode S until 2012, certain VFR flights in the UK will require mode S from March next year.

Is the wording of the rules for Mode S from March 08 published anywhere yet?

[robin]

Its published on the CA website

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=810&pagetype=90&pageid=4601

[Rod1]

At the recent meeting with the CAA at PFA HQ this was not mentioned. The CAA presentation is at;

http://www.pfa.org.uk/

The important point is that if you do not have to have a Transponder today, you will not need one until at least March 2012.

I wrote a summary of the meeting;

Mode S Summary of meeting with CAA 17th Nov 07

Originally the CAA intended to force all flying machines to install Mode S. This approach has been abandoned by the CAA, and the following is the future:

Phase 1
The present rules on the carriage of transponders will continue to apply only to;
Public transport flights
Flights at and above FL100
IFR flights in CAS below FL100
Flights in airspace notified in the UK AIP (London only at this time)

The above group were required to carry Mode A/C and now need Mode S Elementary Surveillance from 31st March 08. A 4 year transition period applies, taking the date to March 2012.

This summarizes the situation today and is a done deal.

Phase 2

This phase is about to enter consultation and is not a done deal. NONE of the following will come in before March 2012, if at all.

Mode S will be required for;

Aircraft making VFR flights within controlled airspace below FL100
Powered aircraft making international flights
Flights within any new “Transponder Mandatory Zones” TMZs, which may be created.

If we take each point in turn;

VFR flights within controlled airspace;

This was clarified as not mandatory. Each ATC unit will be able to clear non Mode S aircraft through subject to workload and aircraft based at strips will be able to negotiate a written exception.

Powered aircraft making international flights;

This is an Annex 6 ICAO convention requirement. The CAA part of this will not become mandatory, if at all, until March 2012. The CAA is also prepared to file exemptions in collaboration with other states. If, as seems likely, the French except large swathes of GA, then we will be able to go there and they will be able to visit us without Mode S. There is a meeting in December on this and the PFA will get an update, which I will post on this thread.

Flights within any new “Transponder Mandatory Zones” TMZs, which may be created;

This will be laid out in the consultation, but again you will not have to comply until March 2012. Applying for a TMZ will follow the existing airspace change procedure.

To sum up the CAA position -

It will certainly be possible to do serious touring (VFR) post March 08 without Mode S. Post March 2012, it depends on the outcome of the meeting in December and the Consultation process on Phase 2

Phase 3 (you are not going to like this)

ADS-B may well form part of a future phase 3. No timeframe, and remember, if you get a Mode S unit with “extended Squatter” (no idea of spelling) you may be OK. You will need an approved GPS to be wired in to your Transponder.

Rod1

[dublinpilot]

Thank you.

This is an Annex 6 ICAO convention requirement. The CAA part of this will not become mandatory, if at all, until March 2012. The CAA is also prepared to file exemptions in collaboration with other states. If, as seems likely, the French except large swathes of GA, then we will be able to go there and they will be able to visit us without Mode S. There is a meeting in December on this and the PFA will get an update, which I will post on this thread.

This was the part that I was really interested in. Looks like I'll still be able to fly to the UK as far as the CAA is concerned :D

[S-Works]

Does not do much to help the average spam can guys wanting to fly under IFR using an IMCR does it?

The places that you can fly into with an IAP that are not inside CAS are very limited.

[TheOddOne]

Does not do much to help the average spam can guys wanting to fly under IFR using an IMCR does it?


bose-x,

I'd have thought that the folk who would want to do that have already invested in appropriate equipment for their aircraft and further investment in a Mode-S transponder is fair play, - in the scheme of things.

I'm involved in a Group with a fairly aged PA28-151 with what was for the time the standard 2 x Comm, 2 x Nav (inc ILS) 1 x ADF 1 x Transponder, OMI receiver. None if this is really fit now for serious Nav in CAS, in my view. We do IMC training on it but of course the practice (and test) ILS are actually conducted as SVFR if we go to an airport in CAS.

The other PA28s I fly are generally Warrior IIIs with more up-to-date fit including Mode-S as standard. In an £90k+ a/c, it's not a lot.

If we ever update the avionics in the -151, no doubt we'll include a Mode-S along the way. No big deal, really, maybe a Garmin 430 which will neatly do everything! (except the ADF, which will sadly be history by then, I'm told).

What IS a big deal, I think, is the possible imposition of Mode-S on day/VFR-only machines; I know of a couple with no electrics whatsoever. It does seem that common sense might actually break out and these will be forever exempt from the requirement.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[S-Works]

oddone, you are indeed lucky to be exposed to such forward thinking organisations. Not one of the three flying schools that I am involved with have a Mode S equipped aircraft and on my home field off 38 aircraft mine is the only one with mode S.

For those with an IMCR or IR wanting to do an approach in CAS which is the majority of airfields in the UK then a Mode S transponder is needed from this year.

Maybe this is going to have a greater effect on the IMCR than the proposal to bin it?

[Rod1]

bose-x

My experience is similar. The only aircraft which seem to have mode s are privately owned aircraft which get used for IFR work and a very small number of LAA types.

If you were to do an ILS approach into say EMA, would they even know that you had only mode c? My understanding was that almost all the UK radars were not yet configured to display any mode s info?

Rod1

[rustle]

If you were to do an ILS approach into say EMA, would they even know that you had only mode c?

Rod1

It's a good point R1: They probably wouldn't know if you had a valid medical or a licence either, so that's okay. :ok:

[scooter boy]

"My understanding was that almost all the UK radars were not yet configured to display any mode s info?"

Interesting question for any ATCers out there.

Anyone slept off their hangover yet?

SB

[machel]

This is an Annex 6 ICAO convention requirement. The CAA part of this will not become mandatory, if at all, until March 2012. The CAA is also prepared to file exemptions in collaboration with other states. If, as seems likely, the French except large swathes of GA, then we will be able to go there and they will be able to visit us without Mode S. There is a meeting in December on this and the PFA will get an update, which I will post on this thread.


Thank you very much for this, Rod 1. It was just yesterday I was thinking about this very thing. I want to plan a trip, possibly to France, for summer 2008. My aircraft is permit, daylight VFR only, and doesn't have any transponder. It doesn't have room for a transponder and I don't know where it's going to go when we do eventually have to put one in!

[PPRuNe Radar]

"My understanding was that almost all the UK radars were not yet configured to display any mode s info?"

Many of the UK En Route radars are already Mode S enabled, with a replacement programme to replace those that are not over the next few years.

However, in terms of which ATC units can actully display Mode S data to the controller, only the London Terminal Control Centre (LTCC) has the capability right now. Again, a programme to bring it in to London Area Control Centre and the Prestwick Centre (which is due to open in 2010 and subsumes Manchester & Scottish Area Control Centres) is planned. These are all En Route or Terminal Control Centres.

For airfield approach services not served by LTCC, the provision of Mode S to the controllers will be a local policy decision and will either require the procurement of a Mode S capable radar system and radar displays by the airport ATC provider, or for them to procure Mode S capable radar displays and buy in the data feed from a provider who has Mode S radar.

£££££££££££££ whichever route you take !!!!

[Rod1]

The experts.

The CAA have written an article for the LAA mag on, Light Aircraft which is very similar to the summary I wrote on the meeting on the 17th, but goes into more detail. If you can get your hands on a copy, have a read. If not I have requested the article be put on the LAA web site at WWW.LAA.UK.COM (note the odd address). I hope it will be up this week.

Rod1

[Slopey]

For those with an IMCR or IR wanting to do an approach in CAS which is the majority of airfields in the UK then a Mode S transponder is needed from this year.

Does it? I thought there was a 4 year transition period, a la:

The above group were required to carry Mode A/C and now need Mode S Elementary Surveillance from 31st March 08. A 4 year transition period applies, taking the date to March 2012.


Just checking, as I'll be wanting to do exactly that in a C only equipped aircraft after March. :)

[Rod1]

My comment is based on the meeting with the CAA on the 17th, but to be honest my interest is in VFR and Bose is the resident IFR man. The info was on the PFA web site but that is in transition to LAA so I cannot post a link.

Rod1

[Rod1]

I have just had a long chat with John Banks at the CAA regarding international flights and Mode S. Formal responses have been received from France and The Netherlands
and verbal comments from others.

France

No planes to insist on Mode S for international flights. Flights VFR in CAS (BCD) will require mode C minimum (as now). This situation may change, but not before 2009.

The Netherlands

No planes to insist on Mode S for international flights. You will be restricted 1200ft except in designated transponder-free zones.

The Swiss

Have delayed implementation beyond 2008, but no firm data as to when or what.

Belgium

Yet to consult so could not confirm.

I have asked John if we could produce a guide to “Touring Europe and Mode S” – as the CAA is our representatives in Europe, and he is considering this.

Rod1

[dublinpilot]

Thanks Rod,
That's very encouraging :D

[FullyFlapped]

Bose-X,

Does not do much to help the average spam can guys wanting to fly under IFR using an IMCR does it?

The places that you can fly into with an IAP that are not inside CAS are very limited.

Not at all sure why you've focussed on the IMCR in your post, as for at least four years this will absolutely affect IR holders more (no flying through the LTMA with mode Charlie only). If you already have a mode C txpdr (and how else could you be currently flying an IAP inside CAS with an IR or IMCR), there is a 4-year upgrade transition period. See the following :-

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/810/Mode_S_June07_A4.pdf

Happy days ...

FF :ok:

[S-Works]

Because FF, I have yet to meet an IR holder who does not have Mode S. The IR holder is virtually guaranteed to be flying there own aircraft and will have made sure they complied with the rules a long time ago. I have had Mode S for more than 2 years.

The average club rental that scrapes by as IFR capable with some creative thinking is what the average IMCR flyer is flying on the whole and I have seen very few of these Mode S equipped.

It is my understanding that the transition period is for VFR not IFR.
:ok::ok::ok:

[Rod1]

Quote from the CAA document

“IFR flight in CAS below FL100”

Implemented March 2008, with a transition period to March 20012

It is in FF’s link and was mentioned in the meting on the 17th. (you do have to have Mode C under the existing rules though.)

Rod1

[FullyFlapped]

Because FF, I have yet to meet an IR holder who does not have Mode S. The IR holder is virtually guaranteed to be flying there own aircraft and will have made sure they complied with the rules a long time ago.
Cobblers.

I have frequently rented my aircraft to people with IRs, including many ATPLs. There are many IR holders who do not own aircraft.

I take your general point about the "club" rental fleet, however.

And as Rod1 ponts out, the transition period does not apply to VFR only.

FF :ok:

[S-Works]

Then you are exposed to a very unique group.

I maintain that the regular flying non commercial IR holder has access to their own aircraft, either a properly equipped group aircraft or private direct ownership. Or it seems rental of yours which I assume has mode S if they are exercising the full privilege of the IR?

[FullyFlapped]

Then you are exposed to a very unique group.
Am I ? Don't you know many commercial pilots who like to fly on their days off ?

And please tell me - this is a genuine question, I do not pretend to know the answer - which privileges of the IR require mode S currently, outside of flight within the designated airspace which I believe applies only to the LTMA at present ?

[S-Works]

Yes only the LTMA and I recall over FL100 requires Mode S. You cant get out of the UK south under IFR (airways) without passing through the LTMA (with a couple of exceptions in the far west).

I know plenty of airline pilots who fly on their day off, mostly VFR permit type aircraft. It is pretty rare to find an airline pilot who goes private IFR touring. Bus mans holiday and all that. Not to say I am sure they don't exist.

FF are you a member of PPLIR? If you are ask them for the stats, they will be an eye opener.

[mm_flynn]

I also believe Belgium, Holland, France, and Germany require Mode S for IFR flight in their whole FIRs (that is the notified airspace is much bigger than in the UK) - which is what finally motivated me to put hand in pocket (up until the end of last year an individually agreed temporary exemption was possible - but needed to have a date you were going to have the Mode S installed)

[Roffa]

The proposal to increase the Notified Mode S Airspace beyond the London TMA is, I believe, with DAP at the moment.

p.s. there's no level cut off for Mode S in the LTMA, it is the complete vertical and lateral extent.

[Fright Level]

It is pretty rare to find an airline pilot who goes private IFR touring

A lone hand pops up :)

[S-Works]

p.s. there's no level cut off for Mode S in the LTMA, it is the complete vertical and lateral extent.

Yes I know thats what I said. Flight in the LTMA and above Fl100.....:rolleyes:

[Roffa]

Yes only the LTMA and I recall over FL100 requires Mode S.

You might want to consider how the above might read then and also perhaps be more specific as to what airspace above FL100 you are talking about.

:rolleyes: indeed.

[S-Works]

Yes only the LTMA and I recall over FL100 requires Mode S. You cant get out of the UK south under IFR (airways) without passing through the LTMA (with a couple of exceptions in the far west).

At the risk of repeating myself.....

[Roffa]

Okay, maybe I'm being exceptionally dim, but I still don't understand (at least as far as the UK is concerned) what FL100 has to do with anything Mode S related?

Does FL100 relate to the UK, does it relate to the rest of Europe, does it relate to anything relevant?

[S-Works]

As I understand it and am happy to be corrected flight over FL100 now also requires mode S in CAS.

[Rod1]

“Okay, maybe I'm being exceptionally dim, but I still don't understand (at least as far as the UK is concerned) what FL100 has to do with anything Mode S related?”

”Does FL100 relate to the UK, does it relate to the rest of Europe, does it relate to anything relevant?”

IFR is not my main focus but I was under the impression that Mode S was required for IFR flights at FL100 and above now. In March 2012 it becomes compulsory below FL100 in CAS. The above only applying to UK airspace.

Rod1

[S-Works]

My interpretation is the same as Rods which prompted my comment about IFR flight in CAS affecting the IMCR flyers in due course as non of the normal IMCR fleet seems to be mode S equipped whereas the IR flyers seem to be better equipped.

It also led me to make the comment that for those who don't own or syndicate in an IFR touring airways flying without ModeS is next to impossible as above FL100 and around the LTMA Mode S is required. It further reflects on my comment that the average IMCR type rental hack does not have Mode S.

Any clearer?

[IO540]

These "do I need Mode S" debates amaze me.

There is no doubt that you don't need it for VFR bimbling in the UK, and quite possibly won't for many years if ever. And this includes the occassional Class G transit.

There is also no doubt that you don't it for VFR scud running around Europe, and quite possibly won't need it for many years if ever.

For IFR, and I don't mean the "UK style informal IFR in Class G", the picture gets quite complicated and there is really only one option and that is to install a Mode S transponder.

I've just picked up a very good Eurocontrol presentation which I can email to anybody who sends me an email with their email address.

[Roffa]

The only Mode S Notified Airspace in the UK is still just the London TMA.

I've checked the AIP (GEN 1.5.3) and the ANO (Schedule 5 Article 20(2)) and they only refers to carriage of Mode S transponders within Notified Mode S Airspace. There is no AIC updating this that I can see.

There is a general requirement to carry a transponder above FL100 inside or outside UK CAS but unless it's in Mode S Notified Airspace it would appear A/C is fine probably until 2012.

IO, there's nothing wrong with clarifying information that is misunderstood. If I turn out to be wrong at least my misconceptions will have been clarified.

[Rod1]

IO540,

Do you have to be quite so rude about us VFR flyers?

“There is no doubt that you don't need it for VFR bimbling in the UK, and quite possibly won't for many years if ever.

There is also no doubt that you don't it for VFR scud running around Europe, and quite possibly won't need it for many years if ever.”

How do you define VFR bumbling, and VFR scud running? I flew up to Wick last summer in 3h6m from the midlands and sat at FL100 over the mountains. I was not alone in making the trip; around 70 LAA types flew up for the fly in. I associate bimblimg to be flying in the immediate area and scud running to be flying dangerously low to avoid bad weather. This is not the sort of flying the majority of the VFR only LAA touring fleet take part in.

Rod1

[S-Works]

Don't worry Rod, wait until he gets started on the ex-airline/military/police committee types....
:p:p:p

[IO540]

I was referring to the type of flying one has to do to remain outside of controlled airspace in Europe generally.

There is a great deal of CAS down to say 1000ft. If flying under that isn't scud running then I'd like to know what it is :)

No intention of being rude about anybody - that is you labelling what I say.

I do plenty of VFR bimbling too, and the occassional low level flight.

[AC-DC]

What IS a big deal, I think, is the possible imposition of Mode-S on day/VFR-only machines; I know of a couple with no electrics whatsoever. It does seem that common sense might actually break out and these will be forever exempt from the requirement.


I hope not. I hope that ALL flying machines will HAVE to have a transponder, mode C at least, then we will be able to have some sort of TCAS, and for those aircraft without electrical system it is not a bif deal to add one (leave gliders aside).

[robin]

AC-DC

I think there are just too many a/c without electrical systems to make this an easy option.

As things are the CAA are suggesting that we should carry a Tx eventually, but they haven't mandated radio carriage nor TCAS

[FullyFlapped]

Why leave gliders aside ?

I've no desire to spoil anyone's fun and enjoyment, but unless gliders absolutely agree that they'll never fly in cloud then I reckon they - and everything else - should carry something which allows them to be pinged.

Can't be that difficult to produce a lightweight, battery powered unit even if it only has a fixed mode C ident (with GPS derived altitude) which means "I am a glider - and therefore highly likely to do something unpredictable" ...
OK, OK, I'm already out the door ! :p

FF :ok:

[AC-DC]

If there will be something light enough then gliders should have it too. Too many 'near miss' or "oh, I did not see it, did you?".

[Fitter2]

Oddly enough, a majority of gliders (and helicopters) in Europe, and a rapidly increasing number in UK are equipping with an effective anti collision system called FLARM. www.flarm.com (http://www.flarm.com) It also gives obstacle warning.

TCAS doesn't hack it for the mode of flight (in the Alps it would be continuously active and hence ineffective, or for the panel space/power considerations.

Of course, this is not compatible with the CAA's wish to equip all gliders with Mode S which will not give them collsion warning against the majority of their own risk, and is several times more expensive.

And when the USA shortly goes ADS-B, compatibility issues become even more questionable:

For general aviation aircraft the FAA has chosen a Universal Access Transceiver [UAT] surveillance link using 978 MHz in the DME band. UAT was developed in the USA specifically for ADS-B operation. (The Europeans seem to be favouring a third technology – there is no interoperability between the three technologies.)

In the light of all that, please convince me I should shell out for a Mode S transponder in my sailplane (where I don't have the panel space or spare battery capacity anyway).

[S-Works]

Much better idea, lets ground all the gliders instead. solves the entire problem.....
:O:O:O:O:O
JOKE.......:ok:

[Rod1]

“I hope not. I hope that ALL flying machines will HAVE to have a transponder, mode C at least, then we will be able to have some sort of TCAS, and for those aircraft without electrical system it is not a bif deal to add one (leave gliders aside).”

That is the point the CAA started from, except they wanted gliders as well. After a huge effort on the part of the LAA and its allies we convinced them it was not technically feasible given current technology. This is now off the table, but may be revisited in the distant future.

Rod1
PS Bose, I have often thought that the ultimate in flight safety is ground everything. It would do wonders for the stats.

[Rod1]

An official CAA summary of the meeting on the 17th is now available on the LAA web site;

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/index.html

It is more detailed than my summary, but otherwise very similar.

Rod1

[AC-DC]

There is also no doubt that you don't it for VFR scud running around Europe, and quite possibly won't need it for many years if ever.


By the way, I belive that the BENLUX and Germany demand mode S for all flights, VFR too.

That is the point the CAA started from, except they wanted gliders as well. After a huge effort on the part of the LAA and its allies we convinced them it was not technically feasible given current technology.

What is the problem to add a small air driven (by a prop) alternator to the wing or the aircraft's belly?

[LowNSlow]

AC-DC if the aircraft in question is operating under a CofA as my volts free Auster is until the next annual then you are looking at a time consuming and expensive Major Mod to be approved by the CAA. Off the top of my head I would say it would take a year and cost around 2,000 pounds. Add on the cost of the Mode S Transponder and you are looking at around 4-5,000 quid at today's prices. The current value of my aircraft is about 14,000. Do you see why I am reluctant to fit Mode S? This all changes when the Austers go onto a Permit to Fly later this year then the modification costs drop significantly but given that my flying is VFR only what benefit is Mode S going to give me? Will most of my fellow bimblers have fitted TCAS? I don't think so. I think I'll be fitting a Mode C transponder after I've fitted the electrical system then upgrade to Mode S in 2012 when (hopefully) there will be a low electrical demand, low cost unit available for us bimblers.

[Rod1]

“What is the problem to add a small air driven (by a prop) alternator to the wing or the aircraft's belly?”

I have a friend with a vintage machine who has this arrangement. The generator has made quite a difference to performance (85 hp 2 seater). He has it feeding direct or charging a battery when free. He can run his radio on it no problem, but the Transponder (with separate encoder) takes all the output and flattens the battery in about 2 hours. I do not have details of the generator, but Francis (from the LAA) was of the opinion it would not be suitable for most non electric LAA types.

Rod1

[AC-DC]

L&S and Rod1.

Thanks, I see your point.

[IO540]

I don't disagree with certification charges, but I don't see the battery life argument.

My GTX330 draws around 0.2A (actually measured current) at 24V. A sealed lead-acid battery (dirt cheap) weighing about 1kg would deliver this for a good number of hours, and would recharge overnight. A lithium polymer battery would do far better than that.

[gasax]

The GTX330 spec sheet states that it draws approximately 27W. So a bit more than measured. A 'standard' aircraft battery could do that for a while from a full charge - but of course is unable to withstand 'deep cycling' for any period for that you need a traction or 'leisure' rated battery, much heavier - a lightweight battery of most descriptions will struggle.

[IO540]

Gasax, you have the battery technology v. suitability wrong, but I don't suppose anybody cares.

Also, if an avionics item the size of a GTX330 actually dissipated 27 watts (and the radiated power is tiny because the duty cycle is tiny), without a fan, it would start smoking :)

[dublinpilot]

By the way, I belive that the BENLUX and Germany demand mode S for all flights, VFR too.


AC-DC,

Is this currently, or from March 08? I tried to look up the Belgian AIP on the Eurocontrol website, but it made no reference to transponders of any time in the mandatory equipment section. Obviously it wouldn't be there yet if it only applies from March 08.

Maybe I'll have to rule out that Oostende trip for a little while yet :uhoh:

dp

[Staggering]

According to the Garmin manual on their web site the GTX330 transmit power is 250 Watts nominal. That would make the current draw at 13.8V around 18 amps on transmit which it will do each time it is interrogated. I believe ERP is derived from antenna gain, not duty cycle.

[Rod1]

My mode c system uses about 3.5a.

Rod1

[AC-DC]

Is this currently, or from March 08?

Yes, this is the way I understood it.