The Virgin Strike Thread II

[TightSlot]

The previous thread was beginning to get poisonous, so let's start again.

Please remember - Making a personal attack on another user doesn't make your point any more valid, or likely to bee believed: However it does increase your own chances of being banned or deleted.

Finally, whenever possible, post facts, preferably with a link to evidence supporting your position. Galley FM is unreliable at the best of times, and turning PPRuNe into a mouthpiece for it doesn't help anybody.

This is now a 'Hot' thread and is being watched carefully for transgressions - think before you post.

[oxymoron666]

The main problem seems to be that no one understands the true value of the deal. A pilot friend of mine provided me with the numbers so here they are;


Current Year 1 Year 2 Yr 1 Rise Yr 2 Rise Total
FSM 25222 26575 27918 5.36% 5.05% 10.69%
CSS 20259 21385 22305 5.56% 4.30% 10.10%
SCC 15548 16310 16887 4.90% 3.54% 8.61%
CC 13350 14008 14506 4.93% 3.56% 8.66%
IFBTS 16277 17074 17677 4.90% 3.53% 8.60%
IFBT 16227 17024 17627 4.91% 3.54% 8.63%



So that includes the 4.8% plus the increase in sector pay but excludes allowances which are what about £5.5k a year.

Secondly I'd be happy to cut crew in exchange for more money. How many crew do BA carry on their Jumbos we have 17 in the new config?

[dolly dripmat]

At BA we used to have 16 crew on our Jumbo services. After 9/11 the company asked to remove a crew member as a temporary cost saving measure. So here we are over 6 years later, still with 15 crew on our 747s!! We did manage to negotiate the 16th crew member back on some routes, but only a handful, so mostly we fly with 15 on the Jumbo.

[dolly dripmat]

PS. There is a huge wave of support for you guys at BA. We wish you the best in your endeavours/industrial action. I hope you achieve more than we did in Jan of this year. Stay strong and all the best.

[magicE]

And don't forget those allowances are tax free!!!

[JB1888]

From cabincrew.com, BRILLIANT! sums it up perfectly i feel:D

As an old timer FSM, i've read all of the comments posted on here and there are some really valued points and obviously very strong opinion which shows the loyalty that most of you (us) show to Virgin. I must say that what LM, Steve R and that new plonker who has only been in the company 5 minutes from Britannia, (latest post on ifly, I can't remember his name for the moment) seems to be all about looking after our customers from now, basically stuff the crew, they've made their decision and now we have no further interest in them at all!! How about expressing their sadness that over 70% of voting members are so unhappy with their pay and conditions that they have decided to take this action and maybe trying to get back round the negotiating table to try to clinch a new deal?

Those of us who have been here over 20 years and have stuck by the airline through 2 gulf wars, 9/11, 7/7 and plenty of other situations that have caused major problems for the airline, sureley deserve more than just being told that the airlines major concern is now the customers and basically the crew who want to strike can get on with whilst Virgin runs an almost full schedule regardless!!

And what's all this about thanking everyone who has volunteered to help out??? How about when we go 3 and 4 crew down and work into discretion to 'help out'??? Overtime at £5 per hour, for goodness sake, it doesn't even buy a cup of coffee and a cake in London! Let's see how many flights have to go crew down over the xmas and new year periods, how many of us will have to work with minimum crew and still offer a fantastic service onboard and still be assessed by FSM's/CSS's to ensure the standard of your work is nothing less than exemplary!!

And of course don't forget, that when we take leave, we only get 2 (if we're lucky) buffer days to add on, where as office staff get two week-end's on either side of their leave plus all bank holidays where applicable!

And by the way, SEP instructors are on £28500 pa, even those who have only been in the company a few years. That's more than FSM's would get if the new pay deal had come into effect. And they are not actually management, they are trainers, FSM's CSS's are supposed to be managers and they earn less than the trainers, how can that be justified?

And all the benefits that have been taken away from the crew? Only one car park pass for newer crew, one request per month that is really hard to actually get for most of us, we could work both Xmas and New Year for two or three years consequentively, crew rest taken off the A340 for quite a long time so flights to DEL/BOM, sometimes nearly 10 hours without a single break, the list goes on and on. And then the company say we're being unfair by asking for a salary equal to other airlines?

All the benefits that we once had in this company when it was smaller, have now gone, most of us have a story to tell of something that is quite outragious and it has gone on for long enough and many of us who have been in the company for a long time are now just fed up of things being taken away and getting so little in return. No payment for 4 days SEP training in the office and not even a day off afterwards, many of us have to fly the very next day. SEP has become a total nightmare for most people and yet if we don't pass, we lose our jobs it's as simple as that! We have to be Dr's/nurses, Police, Firefighters, waiting staff, safety officers, security 'bods', sales people (DF) as well of course as being perfect ambassadors for the company and offering a world class service that rivals some of the best companies in the world! For goodness sake, do we really not deserve to earn a salary that is rewarding!!

We all work bloomin' hard and the vast majority of crew really do give 100% and are so loyal to the company and we really can't do more than we already do!! The company need to start recognising the crew that give so much to the company, remember the restraints that so many of us have dealt with, the medical emergencies, the sep related incidents onboard, the long horrendous delays etc etc etc

Are we really asking for so much? If the company manage to operate a near perfect schedule over the strikes, then things will only get worse in the future, disciplinaries will become more frequent, more benefits will be taken away as cost cutting measures and foget any chance of renegotiating a salary review in the next 4 to 5 years as the company will say they cannot afford it as a result of the strikes we instigated!

[scoobydooo]

Ah, I found the old thread, here is the link http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=300751&page=1

There is lots of information in it for reference, so that we don't reinvent the wheel.

for example in respone to Oxymoron666's posts about percentages and how much the deal was worth to crew rather than retype I refer back to this post from the old thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3616165&postcount=211 which detailed how much extra per month a crew member could of had extra in in the hand. A lot easier to get an understanding of the deal in terms of ££ in the hand.

Regardless, the deal is gone now, time to move on.

[stowaway]

Dear vs.lhr
You seem to doubt the figures I posted about just how underpaid VS cabin crew are, relative to other airlines.
You asked for the link to the CAA page that I quote . It is :-
www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline_data/2006Annual/Table_1_14_Airline_Personnel_cost_UK_and_Overseas_2006.pdf

It makes interesting reading when you see that all the charter/low cost airlines can pay their cabin crew on average at least 2,000 per annum more, yet VS who sell seats LHR-JFK-LHR for up to 2,950 pounds are unable to.

Regards.

[Justanotherpax]

Firstly, good that a new thread has started. The old one WAS getting nasty.

Secondly, I am SHOCKED at those numbers posted early in the thread. I had no idea your current package was that bad!!!

Suddenly the inconvenience I may endure in January is put in perspective.....

[Litebulbs]

vs lhr
My point in the last thread about those Unite members who choose not to strike and non members is this -

If you are not prepared to back industrial action due to a dispute over pay and do not think for what ever reason, that being a member of Unite is a good thing, then why should you benefit in any way, if the action carried out by Unite gains an increase from the initial offer of 2%?

I am not saying that you are happy with 2%, but you are not that unhappy to back industrial action.

You would be seen in a very kind light by your bosses if you refused anything above 2% because of the opinions you have already aired on these threads.
To me, this is a question of conscience.

I am sure you would be respected from both sides in this dispute if you stuck with 2%.

[MakingaSplash]

I know I am repeating my point from the previous thread, but I do think it is a valid one. Can someone please tell me EXACTLY what we're striking for? It's all good and well saying pay and conditions, but I need to know WHAT percentage and WHICH conditions? Without this in place, how can anyone strike? It would be indefinite and divided. The union recommends an offer, the membership rejects it, the union recommends a strike. This does not represent a united front. Every person I speak to has varied ideas of an ideal outcome/aim and the union are certainly not leading the way in this.

Before I can make an informed and adult decision regarding my position during this strike, I need these questions answered. I voted no to striking for precisely this reason.

Again, sorry to re-iterate but I didn't receive any answers.

[vs_lhr]

If you are not prepared to back industrial action due to a dispute over pay and do not think for what ever reason, that being a member of Unite is a good thing, then why should you benefit in any way, if the action carried out by Unite gains an increase from the initial offer of 2%?

It's nothing to do with whether you took part in action or not. It's simply the company cannot discriminate between union and non-union members. In the same way they can't offer a better deal to non-union members as a reward for not taking part in the strike (well, actually, they can offer bonuses for working on strike days, but they can't offer a better ongoing package just because someone is not in the union).

[regularpassenger]

If you are not prepared to back industrial action due to a dispute over pay and do not think for what ever reason, that being a member of Unite is a good thing, then why should you benefit in any way, if the action carried out by Unite gains an increase from the initial offer of 2%?

Litebulbs - I'm sorry I have to reply to this. Some who may not back industrial action may have in fact voted for the offer on the table at the time. Using your argument, and putting it another way does this mean if the vote had NOT been for strike action then those who voted for it should not recieve the enhanced pay offer?... No I think not.

I'm only a humble pax, and I support the CC in their campaign for a better offer...but comments like this will not aid your cause.

[Litebulbs]

vs lhr

The company have already discriminated between members and non members. Crew were offered more than ground based staff.

When you enter into a collective agreement, you should not do it lightly. The majority of Unite members who voted, voted to strike. The whole point about the union movement is that you are a collective. You have collective strength and you will not always see the result go your way. However, you should stand by that result.

Unite has called upon all of its 3000+ members to support action.

[vs_lhr]

Litebulbs,

I'm not getting into an argument about whether the company has discriminated or not. The point is they are simply not allowed to discriminate based on union membership. End of.

[Litebulbs]

If they are not allowed then why did they?

[crewboy]

Just a note to say goodluck with your course of action. I work for bmi and the majority of us support you guys I cant understand why you haven't proposed striking before. A few friends of mine went over to you guys and then came back due to not being able to survive. Your no 1's seemed to be getting a basic wage amounting to the same as I got whilst training.

No wonder Mr Branson is a millionaire. I cant believe they bus you over from Gatwick probably to avoid London Weighting allowance even though the majority of ur flights are at Lhr.

You guys have had it bad for too long I cant believe there are Vs Crew not supporting this action.

Good luck guys give em hell.
:ok:

[High as a Kite]

MakingaSplash has hit the nail on the head. Whilst nobody clearly spells out what exactly they are fighting for then the dispute will trundle along at a snails pace with no hope of a resolution :ugh: In this situation the company most definitely have the upper hand, which is why they are confident they can run a comprehensive schedule with the cancellation of only 3/4 flights.

The union, who strongly endorsed the last two offers, have now performed a complete u-turn and are calling for an all out strike which damages their already limited credibility.

The union reps have not received clear guidance from the members which has resulted in lenghty negotiations without a successful outcome.

As long as the workforce continue to go off in several different directions, the less likely it becomes that a remedy for this complete and utter mess will be found.

[scoobydooo]

Justanotherpax,

Thanks for your support, much appreciated. Likewise those that voted no and appreciate that the only way forward is as a united front I thank you for the private and public messages. Together as a collective unit we shall make a difference. A time of change is upon us - one of which other departments and management will not like and will (as Ifly demonstrates) try to paint us in a poor light, incidentally I personally feel it shows desperation in the extreme i.e. they know we know we have the upper hand.

Those asking what we are seeking see the union for details, many have been passing on their concerns and minimums they would accept, the company know what it is already but has been trying to pull a fast one targeting specific ranks and groups as they did at the last negotiations with promises of back pay in Christmas bonuses etc, this time however it has not worked. Makingasplash, there are pages and pages as to what we are striking for with tens to hundreds of areas of concern, may I suggest you take the time (and it would take some time) to read them all, rather than crew rewriting their issues, since the talks began the same things have been typed over and over and over again.

The ball is firmly in the companies court, they can avert customer disruption by returning to the negotiation table and offering a realistic offer which does not involve crew sacrifice.

[MakingaSplash]

Scoobydoo, you are absolutely right, one could fill a book with everything that was written about the subject in the previous thread. However, one person is saying 10%, another is saying the percentage is fine but the trip pay needs to double. Will there ever be a clear manifesto, a united one, which says, ok company, we want X, Y and Z and without this we will keep striking. Trust me, I have read all the pages. :ugh:

[Litebulbs]

Makingasplash

I understand that if you take Pprune as the negotiation position of Unite, then it may seem disjointed. However, it will be the senior stewards position and views that will be put to VS at this stage. They will understand all of the wants of the crew and will also understand what is or is not achievable. This may have been the position before, but each crew member now has the fact that a strike has been called and it is real.

Unite have been involved in loads of industrial disputes over the years and will know how much a mandate 1500 no vote will have given them. If all 1500 who voted to strike are all flying on that day then VS does not operate. Likewise, if none of the 1500 are working, its business as usual. But the real fear is the unknown figure of how many others who did not vote will act? It could be another 1000 strikers. It may be none.

This is the first call to action in Virgins history. How many of the senior management team have been in this before? How many Unite negotiators have? That is where the experience is. If ACAS are called in, who has the experience in working with them? Will both sides agree to a mutually binding result? Who knows!

[TopBunk]

First, let me say that I have no axe to grind one way or another in this dispute, but ...
If all 1500 who voted to strike are all flying on that day then VS does not operate.
that is a very large assumption indeed, that all those who vote for strike will actually strike.

In the next couple of weeks, a large an concentrated campaign will be launched by VS management directed at each individual cabin crew member pointing out what the implications are of the proposed actions. What may and may not happen re jobs etc. They will also point out that crew who want to come to work will be able to park at xyz place, away from normal crew car parking and that there will be no picket presence allowed there and furthermore that crews will be escorted into report in blacked out buses etc, ie their anonymity will be preserved from Unite.

If it gets to a strike, then I would expect a hard core militant picket group numbering less than 100, and a very large sickie being thrown by the majority, and some (but not many) reporting for work.

The strike will probably disintegrate within a couple of days as people drift back to work as they see aircraft departing.

The timing of the action could not be much better for VS - January is traditionally a low yield month and Q3 at most airlines is often the weakest.

Following on from that, the end of January will see all those credit card bills coming home to roost and it will probably be 5 1/2 weeks since the previous pay check (and with reduced allowances in hand dut to the strike).

BALPA puts out advance guidance for families and potential strikers to have about 3 months of expenses put aside to cover any dispute - have Unite given any advice to their lower-paid members who can less afford to see a drop in income?

Having seen various actions such as this before, I wish you all well - I believe you'll need it.

[vs_lhr]

Nice summary, TopBunk, I would agree with much of that.

If it gets to a strike, then I would expect a hard core militant picket group numbering less than 100, and a very large sickie being thrown by the majority, and some (but not many) reporting for work.

The one point to bear in mind from that, and has been raised on CabinCrew.com, if you call in sick (when you are actually healthy), just to avoid working on the days of the strike, you would be getting sick pay when you'd actually be entitled to nothing. That would be committing a criminal offence because you'd be 'obtaining money by deception'.

An easy reason Virgin could use to instantly dismiss those taking part in strike action but claiming sickness. And I don't doubt that they will be checking every case very, very carefully.

[Litebulbs]

TopBunk

1500 people voted no. not just 100 militants as you put it. If these 1500 were so unsure, then perhaps they may not have voted, like the other 1000 members.

Did you read on and see that in the NEXT sentence I said - Likewise, if none of the 1500 are working, its business as usual.

It is a shame that you do not trust crew members to have already worked out the implications of going on strike. Who says that everyone has not made provision for a couple of days action?

[vs_lhr]

If they are not allowed then why did they?

Lightbulbs,

This simply isn't a point worth arguing. You are saying those that strike should be the only ones to benefit *if* VS get back around the table and negotiate a better deal. Look at it from VS's point of view - they'd much rather be rewarding the staff that didn't strike, so they are hardly likely to pay staff that tried to damage the airline more than those that didn't.

But, regardless of that, if you have two people of the same seniority and doing the same job, an employer can't pay one more than the other if the *only* reason is union membership. They can pay individual staff more based on responsibility, length of service, training, experience and all number of factors, but they can't discriminate based on things like race, creed, sex or union membership.

[Litebulbs]

vs lhr

That counts for any day!

[rubyrocks118]

Well written Topbunk,

I too am in the union and voted to strike.... only because i do believe that fellow crew members who have been there way longer before me deserve a descent wage, it goes without saying i have been in the Co for under a year i knew what i was going to get when i joined, but i am supporting those who have been here longer because they do deserve something........... However unfortunatley i will have to go into work when the strike is on, call me two faced, but if i decided to not go in and strike, the 4 days of work that i should of done will reflect significanlty in my wages and currently bringing home just under £850 per month based on 6 flights and trip pay, will be crippling to my outgoing if i end up with roughly £200 less in my pay packet, which i just will never get back.

In simple terms i just cannot afford to go on strike because it will just affect my monthly outgoings of over £1800 a month (hubbies help with mortgage) and i just won't never be able to recover the money i lost.:sad: I feel so two faced but having spoken to many other crew in my situation they agree that we are stuck in a rut, we strike because we are not being paid enough, but if we don't work we will get penalised heavily and so have no option but to work.

i await the firing of guns now!!!!!!

[vs_lhr]

1500 people voted no. not just 100 militants as you put it. If these 1500 were so unsure, then perhaps they may not have voted, like the other 1000 members.

Did you read on and see that in the NEXT sentence I said - Likewise, if none of the 1500 are working, its business as usual.

It is a shame that you do not trust crew members to have already worked out the implications of going on strike. Who says that everyone has not made provision for a couple of days action?

Who's to say their reason for voting for the Strike wasn't because (as was touted here, there and everywhere), Virgin simply wouldn't let it go to a strike, and Dicky would step in with bundles of fivers if the vote was yes.

Well, the vote was yes, and the company is preparing for a fight. You cannot say for certain that all 1500 who voted yes still have the stomach for a fight, and the implications that would have on their pay packets. Two 48-hour strikes, especially when the company is confident of the marginal impact, will not bring VS back to the table. It's going to take much more action. Can all 1500 still afford that?

[thebigcheese]

Well, the vote was yes, and the company is preparing for a fight. You cannot say for certain that all 1500 who voted yes still have the stomach for a fight, and the implications that would have on their pay packets. Two 48-hour strikes, especially when the company is confident of the marginal impact, will not bring VS back to the table. It's going to take much more action. Can all 1500 still afford that?


THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON WHY ALL UNITE MEMBERS( NO MATTER HOW THEY PREVIOUSLY VOTED ) MUST STAND UP AND BE COUNTED NOW THAT STRIKE IS IMMENENT.
WITH A STRONG PRESCENCE AT PICKET LINES VS MUST BE READY TO COME BACK AND NEGOTIATE
I FOR ONE WOULD LIKE OUR EMPLOYER TO START NEGOTATIONS A.S.A.P
TO PREVENT ANY DISPUTE

[vs_lhr]

THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON WHY ALL UNITE MEMBERS( NO MATTER HOW THEY PREVIOUSLY VOTED ) MUST STAND UP AND BE COUNTED NOW THAT STRIKE IS IMMENENT.
WITH A STRONG PRESCENCE AT PICKET LINES VS MUST BE READY TO COME BACK AND NEGOTIATE
I FOR ONE WOULD LIKE OUR EMPLOYER TO START NEGOTATIONS A.S.A.P
TO PREVENT ANY DISPUTE

It depends on your view. Obviously thoughts are polarised on both camps at the moment. Strikers need the full support of all who voted yes (and perhaps a little more, if they are truly to upset the VS scheduling which is working to avoid disruption). The management need as many people as possible to report for duty - including those 1000 who voted neither way.

Taking the macro view, there is more pressure on employees as the impact on their wages is more significant than a few cancelled flights to the company. For the strike to be effective, not only do all union members need to stand together, but it will need more than just the 4 days of action currently planned. What I doubt, given the fragmented nature of the vote and the unclear picture of what deal people are fighting for, is whether the majority of crew have the stomach for a protracted dispute.

[thebigcheese]

vs lhr

my concerns exactlly rgds will the crew have the stomach..... but if they do not then they will have no one else to blame for poor pay and extra stand by duties.
Hence the reason everyone must stand together to improve our pay to acceptable levels :O

[JB1888]

To All Unite CC Members at Virgin Atlantic

Virgin Atlantic Strike Action Update





Unite balloted 3,137 cabin crew members at Virgin Atlantic.
72% of all members who returned their ballot voted for strike action.
Strike action will initially consist of 2 x 48 hour stoppages.
The first stoppage will take place from 0600 hours on Wednesday 9th January 2008 to 0600 on Friday 11th January 2008.
The second stoppage will take place from 0600 hours on Wednesday 16th January to 0600 on Friday 18th January 2008.
All 3,137 Unite Cabin Crew members are now expected to participate in the strike action.
Your right to participate in strike action is protected under Section 234(a) of the Trade Union Labour Relations (Consolidated) Act 1992.
Unite has begun mobilising for strike action. All relevant literature, posters, flyers, badges, placards, etc. have been produced and contact has been made with the relevant authorities.
Peaceful protests/picketing will take place on 9th, 10th, 16th and 17th January 2008.
This will be co-ordinated in the run up to the action and we are currently exploring the most appropriate establishments to highlight the protests.
Confirmation of these establishments will be made known to our members prior to the action taking place.
Maximum support by all Unite members available to participate in the protest is essential.
Unite will further update our members on 4th January 2008. Unite members do not need to do anything else in the meantime.
We have always stated that we would be prepared to meet if the company wishes to engage in further discussions.
The company may attempt to undermine our efforts during the forthcoming period. They have failed to do this up to now and we are sure you will not be unsettled by any further attempts by the company in this respect.
Your support from the outset of this dispute has been crucial. With your continued support we are certain that an agreeable resolution can be found.
Finally, you have given Virgin Atlantic a consistent message throughout this dispute. It is now time for them to listen!!




Brian Boyd
Unite National Officer
Civil Air Transport

[TopBunk]

Litebulb

1500 people voted no. not just 100 militants as you put it. If these 1500 were so unsure, then perhaps they may not have voted, like the other 1000 members.

Did you read on and see that in the NEXT sentence I said - Likewise, if none of the 1500 are working, its business as usual.

It is a shame that you do not trust crew members to have already worked out the implications of going on strike. Who says that everyone has not made provision for a couple of days action?

I do not think that you understand the human pysche very well.

Striking/not working and picketing are very different animals. OK, so 1500 voted for strike action; how many do you think will actually have their faces seen and photographed by VS on the picket line - for sure that is what will happen. What happens then in future, the management know who the 'trouble makers' are and they may well be 'marked' people.

That fact will deter many from being on the picket line, hence my comment of '100 militants'.

There is already a poster above saying that they voted yes to strike, but won't due to financial reasons.

There is a big difference between putting a tick in a box to strike and actually walking out (as opposed to calling in sick).

The no(n)-voters are unlikely to strike, but may well go sick instead. Ok, you could argue that it has the same affect in that people are not at work, but the company will see it as a lack of solidarity.

Be in no doubt, the propaganda campaign will unnerve and terrify the young cabin crew members who may think right now that it is a laugh when they are in a group; but when sitting at home with a £120 phone bill, £500 rent to pay and £1000 on the credit cards from Xmas, there will be many people in tears and calling the company in desperation.

It's not a question as to whether or not I trust crew members who have voted yes, I am irrelevant in what happens as I have no vested interests as I work for BA.

All I am doing is pointing out the likely roadmap for the next days and weeks so that you may be aware of the possibilities and think through the implications/consequences.

[scoobydooo]

but when sitting at home with a £120 phone bill, £500 rent to pay and £1000 on the credit cards from Xmas,

sorry dont earn enough to get £1000 on the credit card, must be nice though :bored:

As for calling the company in desperation, I honestly dont think so. I do agree however that being on a picket line and striking are 2 different things. One you dont have to get out of your bed for the other you do, so in essence you dont technically have to walk out, more - walk in :)

[scoobydooo]

Rubyrocks,

I understand your post, having only joined in March it is perhaps hard for you to appreciate what has happened to our conditions over the years in the airline (I dont mean to sound condescending and apologise if I do). The 3rd long post on this thread taken from cabincrew,com summaries it beautifully. Being a 28 year old living in London I fully understand your plight regarding having to come to work due to financial constraints, however the big picture is this is the very thing we are tying to improve so that we dont have to live perhaps quiet so hand to mouth.

You obviously feel it is worth being a union member so soon in your career with the airline which is great news, you obviously also appreciate that they are there to protect us in various matters. What weight do you feel the union will have in any further negotiations in years to come if its members do not back them now ?

I know you are thinking about tomorrow and can you pay this bill and that bill, but what about next year and the year after, this is long term planning for the future, not just for the month

I refer to a post from cc.com rather than retyping...


Ni Boi

I can honestly see where you are coming from especially as you have only been here a few years ( if by that you mean,not many) If I saw a 4.8% for only a months standby then that is pretty reasonable.

I think one has to look at the general decline in our terms and conditions over the years of late that has led to this situation. There are other departments which felt circa 5 years ago that they were undervalued in comparison to their counterparts in other airlines, their department and union did something about this. Unfortunately whilst we (Royal) felt the same it has taken some time for us and our union to get up to speed to even have any chance of hitting the ground running in order to be able to achieve what the other department achieved. (a package which brought it in line with another major player). We must remember that Virgin fought to prevent us from achieving union recognition in the workplace and it was not all that long ago we achieved it.

Originally posted by ni.boi

I feel "my opinion only" that some crew have got very greedy with this whole situation and I fear that it has gone too far. If VS can operate "which I think they can" then we will get nothin! So then where will we be? back to square one with nothing in our pockets.


Well this is the situation we are in now, the cherry (4.8% offer) that was left on the table to try and sway the ballot did not work, so the 4.8% offer is gone, vamoose see ya. So... what now, well it is exactly as you say above, we are back to square one with nothing in our pockets ( unless we work as a team.)

So what do we do ?

Well you have opted to go to work as normal and that is your choice.
I, on the other hand feel that this is the most momentum the union has EVER had in negotiations since its inception in the company. To just go to work now and not carry through with the strike ? this would destroy the union overnight. Imagine the scenes at the next negotiations, we want this, the company - NO, we want that, the company - NO. In effect they would not fear the power of the union or its right to enforce industrial action as a last resort, why well because we would be a joke, ah yes strike action, we remember that, - last time you threatened it no one striked. All future negotiations would be fruitless unless we are prepared to show that a unified, unionised, workforce sticks together and will not tolerate out terms and conditions continually being attacked in order to maintain the cost of living.

The company is trying to call our bluff and I bet their chins ht the floor with 71%, they expected a NO vote. Those who voted yes to strike must strike, and those who did not are more than entitled to strike (even though they voted against it initially). Perhaps those who voted No to strike did so to preserve the 4.8% offer, it is gone now.

I therefore ask that you might consider the next set of negotiations and how we might fare if we do not stick with the majority now. We are not seeking drastic rises, just fair rises and terms.


It is the united front that will achieve our goals

[Anti-ice]

This is what get's me - the people who say they cannot afford to go on strike.... D'UH :ugh:

The reason why people have voted and will go on strike, is because they cannot afford to keep accepting a poor salary .... If you did fight for, and secure a better salary , then you wouldn't have to worry about going on strike, you may have the luxury of having a few extra pounds in your pocket each month, to pay that bill you are worrying about ....

You have a good chance at this guys, virgin pr will go into overdrive now, and its up to you to seek the best advice in what they say and build on a brighter and more deserved future :ok:

[Dick Deadeye]

Good Luck to the Virgin Cabin Crew, from an occasional passenger, I really do hope you win.....

.....sadly, I think it much more likely you will get creamed!

I'll be delighted (and I mean that) to be proved wrong in due course, but all the signs of an impending disaster are present.

The few crew I've talked to seem blissfully naive or unaware about the management PR blitzkreig that is about to be unleashed upon them by their caring, union-friendly, avuncular, pullover clad, boss.

Will they stand up to the pressure? Not the ones I've met!

I really hope Unite knows what it is doing!

[vs_lhr]

You have a good chance at this guys

It's very easy to throw out a sentence like that, but unless you offer reasons why you think that way, it's meaningless. Everything I've seen so far suggests the opposite. At the moment, we still don't even know what the crew are striking for. The union not understanding that simple point is why we're in the mess we're in now.

[scoobydooo]

2shoes

Good point, hadnt thought about that, so yes each strike will compound the impact of the next set of 48 hour strikes, i.e. snowball (seasonal) effect. That is just based on our ones, add the BAA to the mixer and the snowball has just gone off piste.

incidently did anyone see what the actual numbers were of the outcome of the BAA vote (1946 members voted, 1108 voted yes to strike) less than us.

so

BAA 24 hours 7th Jan (Monday)
Virgin 48 hours 9th-11th (Wed, Thur)
BAA 24 hours 14th Jan (Monday)
Virgin 16th - 18th Jan (Wed, Thu)
BAA 24 hours 17th Jan (Friday)

I wonder how the days were picked, BAA have gone for having a few long weekends and we go for mid week.

[Pistol Called]

"If the forcested 24 VAA flights are cancelled on 7th jan then hundreds of crew will be downroute an extra night and therefore be entitled to 2 days off on their return to UK(or 3 depending on destination)." {sic}

Why not operate from somewhere non BAA like Luton to avoid the BAA strike? The bus trip would suck but better than not travelling.

[Hand Solo]

I wonder how the days were picked, BAA have gone for having a few long weekends and we go for mid week.

I strongly doubt there was any collusion about the strike dates between the two groups, it would be illegal. The BAA strike represents serious bad news for Virgin strikers. A Virgin strike would be a bombshell for the managers but the BAA strike will be a thermonuclear weapon. The complete cancellation of the airlines flying program for 24 hours that the BAA strke would cause would more than mask the disruption caused by a Virgin strike. Virgin crew lose two days pay, the company have already taken the financial hit of a strike and so have nothing to lose.

[scoobydooo]

Each will compound the other, if they had been on the same day then yes no as effective. Take a BA and Virgin destined to a.n. same destination, both outbound cancelled due to BAA industrial action on the 7th . Next day BA have 2 sets of pax to get on the next service, then Virgin strike and would more than likely try to get pax to destination using the other carrier (like when we took BA pax when they striked). Space for another carriers passengers will be very limited due to trying to get their own programme back on schedule.

Result... carnage !

[leisurelad]

Not sure to many wil agree with this comment but personally think union should change the strike days from 7 Jan to 17 Jan, full 10 days as to give a reall hard impact along with the BAA strike to, that would be mayhem, two 48 hr strikes, better than nothing I agree, but := enough to hit VS hard enough at all. And those that didnt vote etc, yes go sick on the strike days, then you still get full pay, an dont loose the days £. No doubt sickness will be watched, but in fairness, how is VS going to prove you didnt vomit at 8m so I couldnt go to san Fran :zzz:.

[TopBunk]

Leisurelad

I think you show your inexperience and immaturity in that posting.

Firstly, you have identified yourself as one of 17? crew members (possible much less if you are male) on the SFO on the 7th - narrows it down quite a bit:rolleyes:

Secondly, it is much harder to manage a series of short stoppages for the company than one longer one. The crewing implications are much greater with MBTR etc etc with short breaks.

Thirdly, if you believe in something you should fully support it, and not take the easy option of going sick - what message does that send to your colleagues and the company.


Note: What I posted before re sickness. It is because it is the easy option that, if it gets to the strike date, that I believe it will be a sick-out rather than a strike-out.

Ho hum, off to work I must go.

Toodle pip and Merry Christmas to all.

[stormin norman]

If the experience of the passengers on the recent ANU off the runway incident (i was one of them) is anything to go by i'd book another airline pronto.

[leisurelad]

Were all entitle to our own say an views are we not. Was just airing mine that was all :ugh:
Not sure you should make a conclusion I work for vs, as I aired my view on the strike not who I am employed by :=

[exvicar]

Leisurelad
I am guessing that with an attitude of call in sick, rather than with your union now expecting all members to step to the front and to strike, you are probably one of the 1500 or so that couldn't be ar*ed enough to even return their ballot on whether or not to strike in the first place. If you call in sick, you are deemed in the eyes of the company as striking. Difference is that the union cannot then say we had all 2500 members or so on strike but merely that 3 crew were on the picket line and 2497 reported sick! The mandate and the chances of your union winning your battle are hampered by the fact that so many of you will not get behind it. Unless you really are sick, a mass sick out will cause misery to your passengers but will not strengthen your union's position. If you want to strike, have the balls to do it. Personally, I think that with so few of you returning your ballot, you would have been far better to have taken the deal as offered. The company will now be out to break the union, support it or expect 2%!

[scoobydooo]

Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech.. that was the sound of the brakes being applied as we all stop and pause and remember today is Christmas day. Merry Christmas everyone.:)

now then ... back to business

Striking and picket lines 2 very different beasts, to strike one does not have to picket, simply not coming to work is striking if you are a union member and due to work on days of action.

Picketing will no doubt be a very delicate issue with the new anti terrorism laws and congregating in groups in certain areas, I await specific guidance as to where we we can legally picket. The main impact will however not be through the picket, it will be through crew not appearing for work.

Right then.. off to work :uhoh: those of you lucky enough to have Christmas at home.... very jealous.

[exvicar]

Little bit carried away. Merry Christmas and best of luck.

[Virginfun]

I think that very few crew would even turn up on the picket line, the majority who do go on strike will just ring up sick.

From speaking to crew online seems that many are still planning on going to work.

This will be really interesting to see what happens in a few weeks time. The majority of crew will not have the balls to create a picket line!!

Guess time will tell, as always!

[leisurelad]

Ok Ok, like I said previously was just airing a view thats all. I dont work with you guys at vs, however you seem quite vindictive at the way you speak back towards my post. Only reason I made comment was that have flown 6 times this year on vs, an the crew have been perfect to me. Obviously none of those crew are on this forum :rolleyes:.
Good luck to you guys, hope you get what you need and deserve.

[016FSM]

Hey guys, it really surprises me that people are even considering going sick! Is that really not the cowards way out? Surely if you support the argument that we should be paid more then you should support the strike and either not turn in for work or if you wish, stand on the picket line.

If you think it's not the right course of action, then go to work and help the company run the schedule of flights.

I'll tell you one thing though, and by the way, I am in favour on the strike having been in the company over 21 years and during that time, my salary has gone from £8500 when I joined to currently £23900, when I next run into any crew member who complains about the fact that we only get £60 for going to Delhi/Bombay, or they can't come out for a meal in other places because they're saving their allowances, my first question will be, "did you support the strike to fight for better money?"

I have to say that whilst I strongly agree that all Virgin cabin crew are very low paid, I do feel that the offer the company put forward is really not a bad one if you've only been in the company about 3 years, but when you've been here for 15+ that kind of offer doesn't increase our basic to what it should be.

And here's some food for thought, sep instructors in the office, who have been here anywhere from 3 years plus, earn £28500 and have all week-ends and bank holidays off. AFTER the pay deal, had it taken effect, I wouldn't have been on that amount per year!! FSM's are supposed to be manager's, SEP instructors are office staff!! Is there not something wrong in a company where training staff are paid more than manager's?

Also please remember that we don't get increments so an FSM offered the job tomorrow who may have only been in the company 5 or 6 years, will come in on the same salary as I am on after being an FSM for nearly 12 years! These are some of the facts that people are overlooking, not to mention that we get £5 an hour overtime and can fly an 18 hour day without any rest and to that end, on the A340, the company even removed the crew rest area as a cost saving measure so on a 10 hour flight to and from India, the crew had NO REST at all and during that time, there really isn't that much time for a sit down, maybe 10 minutes here or there. But the crew are the first ones to help the company when we have to work 2 or 3 crew down and paid peanuts for doing so, or when crew have to work up a rank when needed as a result of being crew down, or enduring long delays and going into discretion to get the flight and pax away. That's all expected of us and we get little thanks, but ask to be paid the equivalent, not more, just the same as most other carriers and it has come to this!

We have always been paid minimal salaries but our benefits have always been excellent. Over the years however, more and more and more has been taken away from us, so now the benefits are not so amazing as they used to be and this is why, people have become sick of accepting such low salaries. When I joined over 21 years ago, our allowances for a US nightstop were $109, all this time later, they really haven't gone up that much at all, those of you who work for VS, think what we get for a US trip and think, 21 years ago, it was $109!!

[interpreter]

I write as a regular passenger and businessman of too many years to count and married to a former Air Stewardess from the days when you had to leave if you got married - so yes - you could call me out of date BUT:
Just ask yourself these questions
Why does your employer pay you less than the competition?
Is it because he simply cannot afford to pay more? (That has long term job security implications for you and everybody else in the Company - the City would also be concerned at this )
Is it because he believes the overall package currently on the table is perfectly competitive? (That suggests your union representatives have failed to get the message across that this is not the case with clear irrefutable comparisons and should try again - and harder)
One of these two questions must be the principle one. Striking is a council of last resort and in my experience when faced with such a dilemma I have found the union representatives very strident in their approach whereas a more subtle negotiaing strategy would have been more successful.
From a distance it seems to me that your union has not argued your point satisfactorily. All the threads that I have read have highlighted areas of anomally and hardship and yet they have fallen on deaf ears with the management when presented to them by the union. I am sure your representatives have done their best but in the tough world of business it simply was not good enough.
Finally, always remember that if the employer simply cannot aford to pay more but wants you back at work something has to give somewhere. Job losses? Corporate difficulties? It s not easy and I wish you all the best of luck but strike - never. There is ALWAYS a better way.

[Virginfun]

sep instructors in the office, who have been here anywhere from 3 years plus, earn £28500 and have all week-ends and bank holidays off. AFTER the pay deal, had it taken effect, I wouldn't have been on that amount per year!! FSM's are supposed to be manager's, SEP instructors are office staff!! Is there not something wrong in a company where training staff are paid more than manager's?

SEP instruckers work 37.5 hours per week or around 150 hours per month, you only work around 80-90 hours per month.

They get 8 days off per month you get 11 if not more thanks to high hours!

Also there pay has been capped so will not change.

[016FSM]

The types of jobs that we do are completely different so it wouldn't be possible for them to work the same hours as us and vice versa. Their days off are week-ends, our days off are to recuperate from a long haul flight anywhere from 6 to 14 hours long, often without any rest onboard, and to recover from the jet lag before our next trip so that's why we get more days off than someone working in an office. However, I get paid for the job that I do irrespective of the number of hours that I work as do they. My reason for making the comparison was not to compare hours, but to show that someone in the office working 9 - 5 (give or take) with an hour for lunch and a couple of breaks during the day, who has been in the company for less than 5 years, can earn more than someone who has been here in a management role for the last 12 years and who has been very supportive of the company through many many very difficult and trying times!

Their salaries may have been capped and I should think so earning 5k per year more than an FSM with over 21 years experience within Virgin Atlantic!!

In all the years I have been working for Virgin, they have always said around pay negotiation time that there's no money. Either because its been such a tough year, or due to expansion or new routes, or the gulf war 1 then 2 then their screw up over the Reynard seats where we lost millions in revenew because nobody listened when we said the seats were terrible! Then there was 9/11 7/7 and so and so on.

Yes we all know the industry is tough, but not a single year of good profit in 22 years and that's why they can never give us a decent pay rise or so they say! They make a lottttttta money from J and premium and on the vast majority of my flights, both are FULL. We have been recruiting almost continually for the last 4 years, the base has undergone a huge refit and I dread to think how much that cost the company, the marble staircase leading up to the clubhouse at LHR cost over one million. LM introduced OBM to Virgin about 5 years ago (which failed miserably at BA by the way and probably contributed to her downfall there) VS spent millions on training everyone on it only to subsequently make major changes because they realised it didn't work and after almost 5 years and a lot of money being spent on it, it looks as if it will soon be scrapped! So they can find money for all of this, but they can't reward their crew who are on the front line with a respectable wage

[Dan Air 87]

Okay; Before I have to change my flight to SFO next month to fly with United, is there any chance of this action being called off?

[fruitbat]

No chance, it's gone too far. Time to play hardball on both sides

[scoobydooo]

Fruitbat, it would depend what was on offer.

If nothing is presented then more strikes will be organised, this will take us from quiet January to Feb and Mid term, then the company will start to feel the heat more.

So regarding the sickness thing, how can crew who are non union members support their striking colleagues (becasue secondary action is not allowed) I think (stress think) even if they join union now they are not permitted to strike but I ay be wrong will check when I am home. So does that leave sickness as only option to them ?

[Hand Solo]

You are wrong. If they join the union they can strike, if they don't join the union they can still legally strike but they won't have the protection of the union if the company dismisses them unlawfully.

[In The Pink]

A collapse of the strike would see Virgin imposing any pay deal it see's fit. It would probably mean a reduction in union membership and seriously undermine the unions bargaining power at future T & C negotiations.

The direction we're heading will lead to significant numbers of unhappy, underpaid, undervalued crew and cheaper new hires in the future.

All of this of course will impact on the positive inflight experience of the people who choose to fly with us and who sustain us all.

That the company cant see this is staggering.:ugh:

[vsfsm]

Some people are still saying they need answers to questions like, how much are we asking for if we go to strike action.

PICK UP THE PHONE

Why are these people not utilising the work place reps. Instead of trying to make out that they belong to a S:mad:t union that doesn't work for the crew. If your that bothered phone a rep for gods sake, everyone else has including me.

[vs_lhr]

My reason for making the comparison was not to compare hours, but to show that someone in the office working 9 - 5 (give or take) with an hour for lunch and a couple of breaks during the day, who has been in the company for less than 5 years, can earn more than someone who has been here in a management role for the last 12 years and who has been very supportive of the company through many many very difficult and trying times!

Comparing any two roles is a red herring. The main reason being the supply of applicants for the cabin crew position is always going to be much greater than for any ground-based job. There has to be, therefore, a value attached to the appeal of a particular job. When you were a kid, you dreamed of being an Astronaut, Train Driver or Air Hostess - I'm pretty sure Call Centre Assistant, Office Cleaner or Sales Rep were pretty low on the childhood priorities list. And as long as there is a queue of applicants around the block, airlines know the remuneration package doesn't have to be pumped up. Looking it from the other side; if the money was the same for FSMs and SEP Instructors, which job would you prefer (or more precisely, which would have more job applicants?).

All positions (and their applications) find their market levels, which is why most of your later argument is irrelevant. Why do SEP instructors who've been at the company less time than an FSM get paid more? Because that's what the company needs to offer in order to attract & retrain enough staff to the job. There isn't a line on your wage slip for being with the company through 'trying times' or a 'supportive bonus', just like there isn't line-items like that on 99.9% of other peoples wage slips.

That said, what the cabin crew negotiation process is doing is attempting to re-adjust the value of crew to the company. Virgin have, up until now, used the attractiveness of the position combined with the attractiveness of the brand to keep the pay low - lets face it, most would rather be crew with Virgin Atlantic than LOT (no offence to LOT crew members, but Virgin has more of a cache).

Where I think this process has mis-stepped is that as long as the supply of applicants for Virgin crew remains (extraordinarily) high, any internal pressure for a major readjustment in salary will meet huge resistance from management. After all, every extra £100 per month paid to crew (roughly 5% increase, on average), will cost the company around £6m per year inc. National Insurance. Virgin reported a pre-tax profit of £41.6m last year, and that money has to pay shareholder dividends, invest in future growth and protect themselves against future costs such as fuel, etc. That means every £100 increase the crew get per month is costing around 15% of the companies profitability before tax. Not a decision they can take lightly, and not money they can simply take from the Virgin Group or Branson - business doesn't work like that, and if the company can't generate the cash to pay its own bills, it's unsustainable. Think about it - a huge queue of people wanting to work as cabin crew (even at current wages), and a minority (ok, 30% is a large minority) of incumbent staff wanting to push for an as-yet-unknown (but larger than 5%) increase.

So, the company is understandably very resistant to large additional (and ongoing) costs on the bottom line. That's why gradual changes upward, such as advocated by the pilots, would have been a much more sensible way of increasing the pay deal over time. The company would have had more time to absorb and adapt to the new costs.

There's been very emotional arguments about how hard crew work, and how much more they deserve. I don't doubt that they do; but the cold reality is that many people work hard and deserve better deals, but their employers simply can't afford it.

[Litebulbs]

vs lhr

This is where the problem is. When you put crew pay below every other cost within your business, you are heading for trouble. Sorry, you have arrived at trouble. The cost of lost business due to industrial action will have to be judged against the cost of a pay rise (whether is % rise or lifestyle) and its future cost.

Obviously, the glam appeal of working for Virgin is wearing/has definitely worn off of 1500 crew and who knows how many others. This needs to be fixed. It is as costly today as any future oil price increases or investment in the future.

You have to pay for oil, you have to pay airport fees, you have to pay your staff. If the first two go up, it does not mean that the last one has to stay where it is.

[016FSM]

vs lhr, I hear what you're saying but I don't agree that SEP instructors or other office based staff earn more to attract people to the job. People who flew go to those jobs because they want to be on the ground and still be associated with flying and have the opportunity to fly occasionally. I can understand that Virgin get away with offering a low salary for new crew as a result of the huge number of applications that they receive for the job, however, after 10 years + with the comany, the crew deserve to be rewarded for their service and dedication with a decent salary. I have put up with that low salary for over 20 years as have many others and we have always given 100% and put up with it because we enjoyed our jobs. As VS has grown from a tiny 2 aircraft company with a couple of routes to a huge international airline which rivals and competes with major carriers like BA and United, we remain 'one of the' lowest paid crews and our dedication, support and long service has NEVER been rewarded!

I want to keep flying for Virgin as I enjoy it and the perks that go with it, but they're squeezing me out because I just cannot afford to live on my salary anymore and I DO save my allowances, I have to!! The UK is one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in, yet VS, think that keeping salaries low is acceptable because they 'can'! Well they can't any more, it's no longer acceptable and whilst all the other manager's in the office earn 'decent' money, FSM/CSS's both of who are managers, are kept on a lower salary cos they're easily replacable as Branson once said and I believe it because we are simply not shown any rewards for long service or dedication so it's obvously true. Experience and dedication as a crew member is simply not valued!! £5 an hour delay pay for goodenss sake and even after an extended delay on a 10 hour flight there is still no guarantee of a rest for the crew during that time cos there's no permanent arrangement for rest in place, it's totally at the FSM's discretion. Which other crew in the world does a 10 hour night flight without giving their crew guaranteed rest? I don't know of any and I do know many crew who work for other airlines worldwide. Think how you feel as a passenger when you get off a night flight and you've been in a seat all night relaxing if not sleeping, think how long it takes you to get over your jet lag. Well we change time zones 5 or six times a month and about 1 out of every two flights we do is a night flight. Whilst FSM's do their best to arrange a rest for the crew, sometimes, especially when crew down, there simply isn't time. And also remember, we don't have a dedicated time to eat either, we have to grab a bite, normally standing up, when we have a free minute which is normally at least 4 hours into the flight. It's an insult to our intelligence, £10 for going 1 crew member short on a flight (before tax) £10 for working up a rank even though you have no training to do that but are expected to do it to cover when the company cannot crew the flight correctly! Going as many as 3 crew down on some flights which isn't that rare because of crew shortages. On those flights there is definitely no rest either way and you work twice as hard as normal to cover the shortage, do you ever even get a letter of thanks from anyone? Can you imagine a BA flight going 3 crew down? It just wouldn't happen, they rarely go one crew member down!!

This isn't the dark ages anymore, being crew is a great job but it's very very hard. It's no longer glam like in the 60's and 70's, it's a really hard job and that's why the turn over of newer crew is so high, because so many just can't deal with the long hours, night flights, jet lag, dealing with very difficult passengers, SEP etc etc etc. We work bloomin hard and it's time we were rewarded with a 'decent' salary that compared well to other office based staff,not around 5K lower than many!!

[vs_lhr]

016FSM,

I don't disagree with you, but unfortunately many of the arguments you present are emotional ones, and cut no mustard with the cold logical reasoning that management are faced with. Virgin has cut-throat competition in BA, and even more muscling into its turf with open skies, so therefore can't and won't pay a penny more than it needs to. Employers rarely pay 'loyalty bonuses', 'dedication rewards' or 'long-time service supplements' - they pay what they can get away with, and for cabin crew, the rather sad reality is they can get away with very little (and that's mostly due to the fact there's always more applicants than jobs). I don't say I agree with that as a policy, and - frankly - it's rather a short-term view; but if your objective is to keep costs to a minimum, then salaries are an obvious target. Look at how the penny-pinching has removed practically anything from the cabins that's not essential to save weight. I mean, they even took the vase of flowers off the J bar because it saved weight!

I do strongly believe, that crew would have got a better result by taking the 4.8% offer and sorting out the union to be better prepared for 18 months time. As it stands, the crew and company will both loose out of this dispute, and employees around the organisation are fragmented by both sides of the argument. Have you noticed the atmosphere since the strike vote was announced? Thank good it's illegal to carry weapons!

So, I sit here wondering what on earth can be rescued from the current situation. The management cannot afford to give into strike demands (as it really would set a dangerous precedent for future negotiations), and crew cannot back down because it will mean no pay deal. Either way, this is the saddest point in Virgin's history.

[016FSM]

I agree whole heartedly with you vs lhr, it's very sad. I know how much they've removed from the aircraft, we're the one's who have to tell Upper Class they can't have a spare pillow or blanket cos we don't carry them, or they cant have their first choice of meal cos we've run out. But at the end of the day, we go to work to earn money and we are the lowest paid department in the company and we simply cannot go on feeling sorry for the company cos things are so tough!

How about freezing the salaries of other management in the Co for a few years, see what happens then! I do believe that this is going to be a very tough an dark time for the company, but why should we be walked over any longer? Other employees are condeming us for our actions, but meanwhile, the vast majority of them are earning more than we are, maybe they should take a salary cut so that we can earn a little bit more!

[Litebulbs]

If you have a dispute now or in 18 months, you will still have a dispute.

[vs_lhr]

No, you have a negotiation now, and then again in 18 months. And then again a year after that. The dispute part of this was entirely optional, and to my mind, a part of this negotiation we could have all done without. I lay the blame for that at the union for not understanding what the crew want - and still do not know what they want.

[VCCM]

Virgin has cut-throat competition in BA

Just heard yesterday how much the BA crew take on an NRT in comparison to us.. sickening (more than montly pay packet for one trip), no one should be fored to leave employer, but the employees can expect/demand equal terms as paid by other market leader (as Vrigin is trying to be). Take for example a Virgin workgroup who demanded they be paid as much as their equivalents in another airline - one of which is cut throat competition.

If you have a dispute now or in 18 months, you will still have a dispute.

Especially when other departments pay rises get announced after our dipsute is complete.

[vs_lhr]

VCCM,

It's not a fair argument to compare like for like with other employers, as the conditions, size, brand and many other factors will never be the same - and, (whether you like it or not), if you want exactly the same deal / conditions / etc as BA, EasyJet, El Al or Qantas then the simple answer is you should be working for them. If you feel the red uniform has lost its lustre, then don't break the airline trying to change it to be BA, EasyJet, El Al or Qantas.

Yes, Virgin pay below the industry curve, and the 4.8% offer was a step in the right direction.

[VCCM]

4.8% would be a step in the right direction if it came without sacrifice i.e. conditions.

I fail to see how one set of Virgin employees may argue they are not fairly rewarded in comparison to a market leader yet another group may not.

I love the red, but am sick of being in the red (financially) and I should not have to give years of seniority to keep my head above water.

Virgin has stayed behind the curve for too long, each year that every airline increases pay by e.g. 3% the difference in monetary value (take home) between us and our competitors increases simply because 3% increase for us is considerably less than a 3% increase for our competitors. i.e. we get further and further behind the curve each year.

There needs to be a serious adjustment to bring us back in line, be it basic or increases trip pay who knows, I would advocate serious increases in trip pay rather than basic in order to reduce sickness.

[Litebulbs]

vs lhr

So in your mind, there is no such thing as a career? If you don't like it leave? People have shown brand loyalty and have through hard work, gained positions of responsibility. That is a 10 year process. It is also 10 years of hearing that there isn't any money.

Are the planes empty? No. That must mean the business model is wrong as almost all other carriers in the UK pay a bit to a great deal more. The Virgin product is not cheap in cost or image. So how the turnover is spent is down to the Directorship and Management alone. This is why the return in profit is where it is. The business is either viable, or it is not. I believe it is, so it is the way it is managed that is the problem.

Keeping staff pay costs at the bottom of the industry gives a short term gain, but leads Virgin to where it is now, in an industrial dispute over pay, with strike action within a couple of weeks. Who knows what that cost will be?

[fruitbat]

How about this as food for thought....
I work for BA and operated a Bangkok flight recently. We left LHR 4 hours late due to a tech problem. The cabin crew all received whats called a 'Box 5' payment for the duty day. It turned out that the payment for maincrew was £530, that's just for it being a long day, and all of that delay was spent drinking coffee in the report centre, not on the aeroplane!
That £530 is just for that sector and doesn't include any allowances or any of the other 3 sectors on the trip. It beggars belief, you really have to make a stand, because crew at other airlines are way, way ahead of you in money and lifestyle.

[Hand Solo]

But then everyone knows the crew at BA are grossly overpaid.

[vs_lhr]

Lightbulbs,

Careers as crew appear to be rare things, if the average is 18 months in the job (perhaps that's how long it take people to realise it isn't all about jetsetting and glamour! ;) )

Planes may not be empty all the time, but there is always downward pressure on pricing. At the same time as fuel costs, landing fees and servicing ever-growing demands of passengers go up, fares go down; so you're looking at return N class fares at £99 to North America (the taxes being more than the revenue to VS). £99 to JFK and back is less than 1.5p per mile.

You can't second-guess the finances of the company just because the planes you've crewed have been busy. All we can do is look at the reported profit (<£42m last year pre-tax), and the expected increase in cost of the crew pay demand (which we don't know for sure, because no-one seems to know exactly what it is the crew want). Virgin management obviously believe their last offer was the best their were prepared to afford, hence why they're not rushing back to the negotiating table.

Criticise them all you like, but they have the full picture, and I'll trust their judgement a helluva lot more at running an airline than a member of crew. No disrespect, it's just that your experience is geared toward great onboard service, and theirs is in using their best judgement in running a business. Both you and they will make mistakes occasionally, but the reason you both do the jobs you do is because you're reasonably good at it.

[interpreter]

I am afraid that it is exactly as stated by others. If you do not like the terms offered by Virgin then seek employment elsewhere. Only if enough decide to leave will the message get through but then for those of you who have left it is too late. You can never go back in life. As long as there are sufficient others coming along who wish to work for Virgin the terms and conditions within reason will not change.
I would turn to the Union and ask them what in their view they can do for you. You pay them enough and their pay is unaffected. It seems at the moment that all they can suggest is a strike - well, they would wouldn't they?
Only when there is a clear shortage of cc will the airline change its terms and conditions significantly. Certainly a strike will do the company damage but you have to ask yourselves how do they recover from that? Lay off staff? Reduce routes? Reduce frequencies? Perhaps they want staff to leave voluntarily at the higher rates of pay to permit them to take on more younger, enthusiastic and CHEAPER cc.
At the moment it looks like a lose/lose situation. Sorry to be so negative but if you look at it practically you will see that strike action is just not worth the cost to any cc member. Also remember that the whole industry is facing enormous challenges over the ridiculous "carbon footprint " fiasco and there is certain to be some thinning down of operators. My final advice. Stay where you are and bite the bullet. If you have a job you enjoy then get on with it, enjoy it and see what happens in this coming year that is, in my view, going to be very turbulent for the industry.

[fruitbat]

This argument of 'if you don't like it then leave' is a little immature. Everyone has the right to work for an honest wage and be benchmarked to similar professionals doing the same job.

If the company won't reward you for your loyalty and hard work, the last step is to strike. It's a nasty process but you have to stand up and be counted eventually.

BA cabin crew are notoriously militant, and in the last strike ballot achieved a 96 percent vote in favour of a strike. I don't think it's right to behave the way they do, but the proof is in the pudding, look at their T's and C's...

As they say in the States, 'if you're specialised, get unionised'....

[Hand Solo]

Be careful what you wish for. The BA cabin crew achieved 96% in favour of a strike but walked away with nothing.

[vs_lhr]

This argument of 'if you don't like it then leave' is a little immature. Everyone has the right to work for an honest wage and be benchmarked to similar professionals doing the same job.

You may have a choice where you work, but it not up to the employee to dictate the terms and conditions of employment.

Virgin make no secret of the package they offer. If that is not suitable go elsewhere rather than attempt to bring down the company. Sorry if it's a message you don't want to hear - but if you want the same deal as BA, go work for them.

[interpreter]

I speak from many years of business experience. What do you truly hope to achieve? Get the company over a barrel? To what end? If the company decides at a board meeting to make improvements that will cost them money they will also have to consider how to make savings. What do you think will come to them first in the "ideas box" as an immediate economy? Staffing levels of course. How can we reduce our operating costs?
I would say to any employee in any company if you feel that an essential section of the staff are underpaid against market comparisons then first of all determine why. If there are plenty of substitutes available - and as I understand it there are - then start looking around: look around from within your job and dont do anything silly such as resigning.
Very, very few people get what they expect out of a strike - some will, to be sure but others will have to pay the price. Tell your Union leaders to get back to the negotiating table with concrete affordable suggestions that the Company might accept. At least it keeps the pot boiling and the Company on their toes. Good luck:D

[vs_lhr]

Tell your Union leaders to get back to the negotiating table with concrete affordable suggestions that the Company might accept.

Unfortunately herein lies the problem. The union don't know what the crew want, and haven't every time they've sat around the table with VS management. Why should it be any different in the future?

[016FSM]

Hey Fruitbat, I don't know why you're boasting about earning that amount of money for being delayed!! We earn £5 per hour for being delayed and we can be delayed as much as 4 or 5 hours ON THE AIRCRAFT WITH PASSENGERS!!!!

I can hear you're jealous already, so just to add insult to injury, we could be on a 10 hour flight and not get any crew rest either because the company removed the crew rest area as a cost cutting measure so stick that in your pipe and smoke it!!

lol lol :ok:

[fruitbat]

016FSM
I suggest you re-read my post. I'm BA Flight Crew and am genuinely amazed at the money our cabin crew are paid for just being late. I, for the record, get absolutely zero extra for that trip. Some of my good friends work for Virgin as cabin crew, hence my interest. I have always admired their work ethic and loyalty to the Virgin ethos. It only makes my view of my BA CC collleagues dimmer, they are very well paid and yet still complain as if they have a bum deal.
I have no doubt you deserve a better deal, but the splits in your community do not bode well. Strikes are nasty, harrowing experiences. You may have a manager on the phone telling you to come to work or face the sack and court. Only if you have a strong Union and a united workforce can you sustain that pressure, otherwise it will crumple.
And, one last thing. The reason our cabin crew got stuffed last year was that Willie Walsh was able to show the Union leader that 700 CC had already phoned in sick rather than face going on strike. It proved they had no stomach for a fight and BASSA will never be the same again.
Good luck all, you deserve way better

[sinala1]

Fruitbat I think there was a rather large amount of tongue-in-cheek sarcasm in 016FSM's post :}

[016FSM]

Ha ha ha ha ha, thank you Sinala, i'm glad it wasn't totally ovelooked! :ok:

[Eddy]

Fruitbat, wow. I'm BA Cabin Crew at Heathrow (WW) and I'm shocked to read your post. How can there be such hatred between our two close-knit groups of colleagues?!

I know that some of my own cabin crew colleagues can treat flight crew with disdain and that's completely unacceptable, but I don't recall ever hearing cabin crew speak about flight crew in the way you've just spoken about us.

We have those beneficial terms because that's what our unions have agreed for us. You have some fantastic terms that many cabin crew think are ridiculous but as in our situation, that's what your union has agreed on your behalf so I say bravo.

We shouldn't be fighting against eachother and arguing over what cabin crew get vs. flight crew, we should be fighting to ensure each group gets the best possible deal from the company without weakening the company to breaking point (or coming remotely close).

[SuperBoy]

I second that Eddy.

Fruitbat - It's not really upto you to decide on BA Ts&Cs for cabin crew. Why are you so bitter about it?

This is the VIRGIN Strike thread not Slag BA crew off.

Also Virgin makes approx 40million pre tax profit per year, BA announced on the 3rd Aug 07, GBP263 million pre tax profit for the quarter leading upto aug. There in lies the difference. So can we PLEASE stop arguing VIRGIN VS BA and get back to VS cabin crew and their plight for better Ts&Cs, which they do deserve.

[DarkStar]

Fruitbat, you are not alone. I was on a Eastern Seaboard layover and the CC were complaining about their T&C, I mentioned the VS situation and quite frankly they couldn't give a stuff about anyone but themselves - but its the sheer arrogance that BA CC feel hard done by that took my breath away. :ugh:

I know a few VS Crew and sadly it seems that any action will crumble away as the dates draw close.

[VCCM]

Also Virgin makes approx 40million pre tax profit per year, BA announced on the 3rd Aug 07, GBP263 million pre tax profit for the quarter leading upto aug. There in lies the difference. So can we PLEASE stop arguing VIRGIN VS BA and get back to VS cabin crew and their plight for better Ts&Cs, which they do deserve.

So why were our flightcrew allowed to compare themselves to BA as argument for grande pay rise and we are not ? There should not be one rule for one and one for the other when comparing ourselves to colleagues in the same line of work regardless of industry.

Yes there will always be a delta between our terms, however the gap is increasing significantly and serious adjustment is needed, no - not to bring it inline with BA, but to bring it closer to most other airlines, out of the gutter.

p.s. if any manager phones me and tells me to come into work or face the sack, name number and that info goes straight to the union, we will see who gets sacked first !:ok:

[Eddy]

Darkstar, FruitBat, I'd tend to agree that some crew can be selfish when it comes to our terms and conditions. I'll admit that I'm rather well looked after by the company but that's not to say there isn't more than I feel we, as crew, deserve. That doesn't have to be money, time off or promotion, though. It could be a variety of things.

The people who complain about being grossly underpaid or overworked are, in my opinion, delusional. BUT it still doesn't really make it any of YOUR concern as a member of flight crew. Look after your own workgroup and, as long as others don't demand so much we'll bring the company to its knees, you shouldn't worry about what anyone else is earning.

[SuperBoy]

VCCM,

I agree with you VS cabin crew deserve to be paid more.

My comment is directed at Fruitbat. Comparing VS cc Ts&Cs to BA cc Ts&Cs is not only not realistic but irrelevant to your plight.

BA cc are very fortunate, some know it some don't but that has no relevance to this thread.

[leisurelad]

Just been informed by one of the VS crew that they are not allowed to do any swaps in January.

Anyone know the deal with this as was hoping to get on a trip with my mate who works for VS.

Is this all because of the strikes !

[BY_boy]

My LA flight was 3 crew down and not one empty seat. Dont you just love it!

[coolhandlu]

Actually there is an embargo on all staff travel during the strike period, this is separate from VSwap being disabled.

[016FSM]

Can you guys at BA imagine taking a flight 3 crew down?

We do it quite regularly and the company wonders why we're all getting p'd off. We get a measley £90 each for operating like that!

[Fournier Boy]

Remember, the reason you are crew down is because your colleagues are not turning up to work. Yesterday, when people were really needed, the company couldn't get hold of people because everyone they phoned on standby, didn't want to go to work - something to do with an impending New Years Party I'm sure - bloody disgusting if you ask us.

[BY_boy]

Yes it is disgusting, but lets not forget that the LA trip will get back on 30th Dec so well in time for new year and a good few days off after. So what the hell is going wrong? Obviously monthly SBY isn't working!

[spacecadet]

VCCM,

You do not have to inform the company that you will be taking industrial action (if you are a union member), and you are correct in your actions of reporting any member of staff who contacts you to (harass, bully, scare or intimidate) find out your intentions regarding reporting to work.

As someone said earlier on, I am glad weapons aren't allowed on the aircraft as the atmosphere can be horrible.

I am due to fly out on Day 1 and I personally don't think I will have anywhere near a full crew.

I am sad that it has got to this situation, how the management never seen it coming beggars belief and now departments are turning on each other & now we have started down the VS v BA argument!

You have to be focussed on what you want out of this industrial action, everything else is immaterial just now!

I predict 4.8% and no strings as this is the only settlement I can see that allows both sides to claim victory!

[exvicar]

016FSM, I believe that BA crew their 747s with less crew than Virgin so your notion of a comparison on whether BA would crew their aircraft 3 crew down is irrelevant.

Eddy, the idea that your battle over your T&Cs is none of our business is a little wide of the mark when it is also our company that is being brought to strike. The outcome and knock on effects of the strike could effect the entire company workforce so, yes, I think I do have a vested interest! That is not to say that I think you are underpaid but I do think you are undertaking the wrong course of action. Best of luck to all of us.

[scoobydooo]

Home today to be greeted with a letter from Richard Branson himself, in which he states....

"For some of you more pay than Virgin Atlantic can afford may be critical to your lifestyle and if that is the case you should consider working elsewhere"

i.e. if you thought we would pay you enough to make a career in the airline you are sorely wrong, we dont want old duffers we want school leavers with no backbone who still live at home and have no bills to pay.

Well, that letter has really pi$$ed me - way to go Dick !

[interpreter]

You only have to look at the profits of BA compared to Virgin, the number of aircraft, the number of flight crew and cabin crew to know that Virgin is very much second best - especially as measured by profit per flight/cabin crew member. Unfortunately striking is never a good option but it is grossly affected adversely if the company against whom the strike is taking place is not strong financially - and Virgin in the airline business is NOT.
All the compaints and grouses that emanate from this site may be valid but as with all types of work unless your union leaders can negotiate - and I mean negotiate, not strike for - better terms you have only one option and that is to find another job. BA have all the business economies of scale whereas Virgin does not. In that context I have to say don't strike but grasp your union leaders by the scruffs of their necks and ask them what they think they are doing.
Although a semi-retired businessman I have no connection whatsoever with Virgin or BA but I do know that the ONLY way you will get any lasting improvements is by negotiation - unless of course you don't mind some of your colleagues going to the wall in the aftermath of a financially painful strike for your employer. I still wish you well and have always enjoyed my flights with your airline but I would take a long, deep breath before you strike and I would certainly be on to my union leader RIGHT NOW! Good luck

[vs_lhr]

I am sad that it has got to this situation, how the management never seen it coming beggars belief

That's an easy one. Virgin management didn't see it coming because at every step, the union gave the impression they had agreement. How the union went into negotiations without first understand what the whole of the membership would accept beggars belief; and even more so that they are pushing the company into industrial action and *still* don't know what the majority of the crew will accept. It would be laughable if it weren't for the fact this is going to cost a lot of people their livelihoods.

Home today to be greeted with a letter from Richard Branson himself, in which he states....

"For some of you more pay than Virgin Atlantic can afford may be critical to your lifestyle and if that is the case you should consider working elsewhere"
i.e. if you thought we would pay you enough to make a career in the airline you are sorely wrong, we dont want old duffers we want school leavers with no backbone who still live at home and have no bills to pay.

Well, that letter has really pi$$ed me - way to go Dick !

Interesting how you can turn that one line into such fantasy. SRB has said, as clearly as he can, that any further offer is unaffordable to the company. (calculations I believe, because the available data supports it). Vocabulary like 'old duffers' old 'no backbone' are simply inflammatory phrases you have introduced to incite emotion. I lose ever-more sympathy with the cabin crew whinging. Maybe it is about time you shipped out. BA deserve you.

[scoobydooo]

Vs LHR , are you a manager per chance ?

My quote is direct from the letter full of waffle , the bit I chose to quote is the bit that really annoyed me, straight from the letter, not a fantasy. As for nothing more being affordable.... man now he sounds like one of the lying managers that said the company couldnt afford anything more than 2% and hey presto 4.8% with strings

As to the timing of it, it talks about current offers and is dated 28th December. Does he not know the current offer no longer exists as of 20th December ? Did he write it ? finger on pulse ?

[coolhandlu]

I work for Virgin, but not as crew. I voice the following question on behalf of myself and many of my colleagues, who, along with me, are mightily concerned about the threat to our livelihoods that this action is posing.

Presuming that the strike happens, the airline survives more or less intact, but no better offer is made to you, what happens next?

[scoobydooo]

..more strikes are scheduled until they do listen, through half terms etc etc. As people say Rome was not built in a day.

[vs_lhr]

Vs LHR , are you a manager per chance ?

No, but I note you are sniffing around your usual modus operandi of accusing anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion of being management or a plant. In fact, you've already asked me; so I suspect you include it here as another attempt.

My quote is direct from the letter full fo waffle , the bit I chose to quote is the bit that really annoyed me, straight from the letter, not a fantasy.

Branson's quote was straight from the letter. Your interpretation is emotive fantasy.

As for nothing mroe being affordable.... man now he sounds like one of the lying managers that said the company couldnt afford anything more than 2% !

So, you clearly believe VS has unlimited resources and able to pay any demand at your whim? If you care to think about the numbers, and look at the impact on the business, you'll realise there has to be a final offer. If, say, the average wage of crew is £15K (across a range of £12K - 22K, weighted toward the bottom), with 4500 crew every 1% is an extra £810K, inc NI the company has to add to its annual budget. That has to be paid for through better efficiencies and cost savings. Perhaps the original offers were the maximum affordable before other savings or concessions are made. There's only a finite amount of that you can do before the bean counters say it's unsustainable - and bear in mind this is an annual cost that grows at a compound rate.

As you're so sure the company can afford more, I'd be interested to hear your numbers. And please don't suggest Branson can dip into his own pocket - what will he do next year, and the year after that? I know, my father bought some shares in BT a few years ago, maybe they can ask him to sell his house to help support an extra couple of percent for telephone engineers.

[coolhandlu]

Scooby, but what if it is true, there isn't any more money, and the offer never gets any better? What is the plan then?

[Kasual Observer]

What no one, especially those so in favour of industrial action, have stated so far is what it is they are demanding! You either have a specific demand or else you are just striking for the fun of it.

Twice you union reps came to AGREEMENT with the company. Twice, the company came to a negotiated settlement. Twice the membership rejected the recommendation. How can the company be blamed if your union reps weren't representing your views?

After the second vote of no confidence in your reps, they then turn around and call for an industrial action ballot. Since then, not one person has been able to state precisely what it is you are demanding.

I have seen all sorts of individual demands on here but not seen one official one. Does anyone know what it is that you are demanding?

Whilst you have our sympathy for your plight on terms and conditions, you are rapidly losing support because of the total ineptitude of your union and your reps. You had advice on how to go about this and advice on the consequences of going into this action without overwhelming support. You have also been given free advice on the possible outcome of taking this action when you are led by people who you have no confidence in.

It all smacks of a disaster waiting to happen. There will be no winners. The company will lose a lot of money and the cabin crew will lose much more than anything they hope to gain and their cause will be put back many years because of ill prepared and naive people who appear to be incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions.

[VCCM]

Scoobydooo

I agree whole heartedly with you but try not to get drawn into the pro company campaigners who tell us how futile our objectives are. These people range from pilots who's bonuses are under threat, managers who have not received a bonus to avert strike action and other departments who are not happy with 2% when it looks like we will get more.

Dont get sucked in.

[vs_lhr]

I agree whole heartedly with you but try not to get drawn into the pro company campaigners who tell us how futile our objectives are. These people range from pilots who's bonuses are under threat, managers who have not received a bonus to avert strike action and other departments who are not happy with 2% when it looks like we will get more.

So, basically, disregard the opinions of anyone who doesn't agree with you because you have dollar signs in your eyes, and therefore you have to win, right?

Nope, you won't win, you will permanently scar the company and cost others their jobs. Oh, and please remember while you're slagging off the rest of the company during this dispute, you still have to work with the rest of the company tomorrow. Good luck.

[scoobydooo]

Thank you vccm

Yes everyone has a different perspective. VSLHR disregard all opinions -nope. Lets take KO's comments no need to comment as his/her post repeats their infrequent previous ones (link available on page 1 to former thread) with valid point, I hope everyone has communicated their grievances to the union through the channels in place.

Your arguments likewise pages and pages of it have been done already. But nice to see you are taking a pop at someone else now (VCCM) who doesn't support the company stance, I used to offer counter debate against most that took company stance, I dont bother anymore as very few if any were actually crew it was persons from other departments or pax.

You now pop anyone that takes union stance let us agree to disagree, you go to work in whatever capacity it is that your work for virgin on the strike days and I wont. You are the opposite of me. period.

I also notice you didnt comment on last thread when shown the company has to negotiate post commencement of industrial action in order to be able to sack anyone after 12 weeks, did you see that reply ? This was your post http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3789194&postcount=368 here was my reply http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3789227&postcount=370

Assuming the crew striking and working as a team achieve better conditions for all cabin crew dont forget to thank them if you are not prepared to be part of the team seeking better terms.

So as VCCM's advice end of subject from me till the 4th when the union sends us more info.

[scoobydooo]

Just to entertain the maths idea

with 4500 crew every 1% is an extra £810K, inc NI the company has to add to its annual budget

So hypothetically 10% would be £8.1M, that's a lot of money per annum. But when you stop and look at other expenditure over the years is it that much ? The company happily took a £20M hit just in one year last year with Nigeria !! Look at the expenditure in paying overtime rates to flight crew over 750 hours (>£20ph.)and others not doing 600 hours, there are lots of areas where funds can be saved and re-allocated.

Yes 10% is extreme but in the grand scheme of things, club house, nigeria, base etc etc it is marginal to ensure a happy efficient workforce. Furthermore the 10% example I would not recommend it all as PAYE (this would further reduce cost as no employers NI) , as suggested before but majoity in trip allowances to try and stop/reduce sickness, make it too expensive to take time off work., would that not please crew and management ?


Toodle pip happy new year.

[vs_lhr]

I also notice you didnt comment on last thread when shown the company has to negotiate post commencement of industrial action in order to be able to sack anyone after 12 weeks, did you see that reply

I'm sorry, I must have missed that amongst the white noise.

I accept that further negotiation needs to take place, but VS are under no obligation to better their offer - or indeed even offer the same deal as the last one - as they have no obligation to negotiate 'under duress'.

Many are under the impression Virgin have some kind of legal obligation to improve the offer. Simply not correct.

[016FSM]

Even though I am in favour of finally doing something about our pay and conds, I do have to admit that I think Brian Boyd (amicus) has made a total hash of this.

No clear demands have EVER been given to the company, just that we want 'better' pay and conditions, not exactly what we want. And if you believe Steve Ridgeways communication on ifly in which he said Brian Boyd negotiated with the company and they shook hands on a deal only for it to be thrown out by the voting members, shows that the union have no idea what their members are fighting for.

I feel that IF industrial action is to go ahead, it must be done with the union firmly backing you knowing what it is that you're fighting for, the company MUST know exactly down to the last full stop, what we're fighting for and full support from EVERY last member is needed. Nobody is really really sure, just how many will support this strike, how many will go sick and how many will ignore it. It's a bit like Russian roulette, everyone is holding their breath and hoping for the best outcome on both sides!

And furthermore, it could well be that it will all be overshadowed by the BAA strikes anyway, that really will cripple the programme for all carriers. I also believe the those who 'rock the boat' will be singled out in the future, they won't get requests, leave dates, they'll end up working the most unpopular routes, if they sneeze in the wrong direction, they'll be called into the office. Whilst I appreciate the union will always back them, who wants to work in such an environment. Virgin unfortunately is not a particularly forgiving company for those who try to cross them!!

We already have one of the most difficult SEP recurrents of all UK based airlines, I think that could start to get even tougher in coming months and that's something that the union cannot get involved in should you not pass!

[scoobydooo]

was thinking about the wages bill a bit more, you mentioned £810K per 1%, using my rough (very ) maths i make it more £670K.

lets say 4500 crew and the average crew is 17 per a/c (boeing for ease of numbers)

Assume distribution of crew is 8 x junior, 6 x senior, 2 x CSS, 1 xFSM and assume this through 4500 crew

4500/17 = 264.71 (say 265 for ease of numbers)

cost of crew

265 x 8 x £11,530 = £24,446,600 (with NI contributions extra £1.7M)
265 x 6 x £13679 = £21,749,610 (with NI extra £1.72M)
265 x 2 x £18,259 = £9,677,270 (with NI extra £0.885M)
265 x 1 x £22,972 = £6,087,580 (with NI extra £0.602M)

TOTAL = £61,962,060 say £62 mil per annum on wages plus £4.91M in employer NI total = circa £67Million

ni tables used http://www.e-gismos.com/ukpay.asp

Whats £140K between friends (other than an exuctives bonus) :)

[747-436]

Looks like January will be a difficult month for VS, and the BAA strikes will make it worse for them, and everyone else!!

[vs_lhr]

Scooby,

I like that summary of the wages bill, and more comprehensively thought through than my guesstimate of a £15K average. Your figures for NI are tighter than my initial estimate of 20% (a figure assumed from CBI advice), and perhaps this is because the cost of employing anyone can be up to double their salary, depending on who you ask (http://www.startinbusiness.co.uk/flowchart/4flowchart_employment.htm).

[BY_boy]

Can anyone post this letter from SRB as I am away at the moment. Thanks

[interpreter]

I don't know whether this will provide any comfort but my wife as an experienced independent travel agent is always receiving complimentary remarks about Virgin cabin services. However, almost without exception BA CC are considered to have a serious attitude problem, be surly and unhelpful and some considered to be old enough to have been CC when BA was Imperial Airways!
If you have a just cause then it is the Union leaders you need to confront and soon and hard!

[VS-LHRCSA]

Interpreter, I know you are trying to show some support for the Virgin crew but putting BA crew down is not the way to do it. I've worked for both companies and to be truthfully honest, I don't really see that much of a difference with crew and their attitude. There's good and bad in both.

Your claim about Imperial Airways is inaccurate. Until recently, there was a mandatory retirement age of 55. Most of the BEA, BOAC, BCal and Airtours crew have since retired. Are you saying that being mature aged means that you have no right to work in customer service? In that case, I'd better go tell my bank, my supermarket, the post office, my mum, so the management there can make arrangements for them all to be fired.

Another thing to consider is that is that if BA crew seem a little older it is only because as they are paid better, on better terms and conditions, they stay longer and are more inclined to make a career of it. How many current Virgin crew would stay into their 50s is they were paid the same as BA at LHR? I'm sure many would at least consider it. There are plenty of mature staff in the terminal so why not in the air? Virgin is quite proactive about taking seniors on the ground who have been forced to retire from the likes of American and United.

You are also generalising about BA crew. It's not all about LHR. Just ask anyone at LGW at the moment. Look how reducing terms and conditions has worked out for them. Virgin management need to learn from BA's mistakes there. They are always claiming to be a better employer than BA (although I saw little evidence of it) now is their chance to prove it.

[surely not]

Hmmmm Mrs SN is due to fly back from DXB on Jan 2nd.

Is this one of the dates for proposed actions, as if it is I need to make alternative arrangements for her?

[6chimes]

I have read with interest both sides of the arguement on this thread and if I may, I would like to contribute my opinion. Firstly, I neither work for VS or BA, I work as crew for another airline at LHR which is pretty similar to VS in its T&C's.

The comparisons between VS and BA should be dropped, BA are unique to the industry these days. Every other airline in the UK treats its crew with contempt and keeps the salaries low, T&C's poor and hires young inexperienced/contollable crew that can't/won't fight back.

From reading your posts and my own experience I believe that what you are looking for is RESPECT and DIGNITY. You are feeling undervalued and used to maximise profit at your expense. Money is the first place to start when expressing your unhappiness, although this needs to be solved from a smarter perspective.

If you went to work and felt valued believing that your direct management were looking to make your work life better and quite frankly you were treated like an adult and a professional employee in a professional work place and not a child that needs to be scolded whilst never being thanked or praised when you go above and beyond the call of duty. And there was some acknowledgment of how hard you are working within the current climate in aviation and an understanding of what it is to be crew these days. Would you be at this point now? If the answer to that question is no, then that is where you need to start to resolve this issue. I do not believe you will get more money, but I think if you are smart you will be able to transform your CC management department. Your fight will then not be in vain.

6

[interpreter]

VS-LHRCSA. Well you certainly have not been too many times on the customer end of cabin service without being involved with the airline. I do not support any strike and I certainly feel that Virgin is not strong financially. I would say to any Virgin CC don't strike but get your union leaders to understand the real issues and start serious negotiations with the Board. It is no good pressing for benefits that will either break the company or force major redundancies.
I would also add that my wife as an Air Stewardess at the very end of the 60's considers Virgin CC vastly superior to the majority of BA CC when we fly long haul.

[NWT]

Firstly let me say that I think unless the Union has got a clear mandate/message/idea etc what crew want, then the strike is pointless. But the point being made regularly that VS can't afford it just does not hold true. As others have said just look at what has been wasted the last few years.....And do you really think the flight deck will settle for a small increase? As soon as the CC deal is eventually sorted out the FD will be starting their claim....bet it won't be 4.8% !

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Can someone please answer me this?

Cabin crew have always gone sick. Our very own AvMed manual tells us not to fly with a cold.
So why in the last 3 years have we encountered CREW DOWN?
In 14 years with the company we have never had this problem until 3 /4 years ago. Crew down was virtually unheard of therefore we didnt mind our pathetic £5 payments, so people like Fournier Boy telling us its all our own doing is just plain nonsense.
Heres my take on it..........................
YET AGAIN the company has decided to take cost cutting measures and YET AGAIN its the crew and pax that suffer.
Just like the J kits...........
Just like the awful catering.........................
Just like the LGW IFE........................

I'm gonna be bold here. I dont care what anyone says, but the crew down situation is a problem that lies with top management and a problem that I dont think is high on the list of priorities to solve. Why? Because it saves money! If we were to blame, then why was there no problem until recentley?

Point 2:
I'm fed up of hearing "If you dont like it leave"
Answer this honestly: Did you voice that same question when our pilots entered their pay negotiations?
Now before you say "Dont compare apples with....."
I'm Not okay!
What about nurses and teachers? Do you shout at the telly when you hear of their hardships (not to mention being key-workers)? I'll bet you a shilling you dont. So why so rude to crew?
No trick question, honest answer appreciated.

January 4th will reveal the Unions intentions. I believe that until that date they are busy gathering info. Its not about greed and money as some of you believe but more about T&C's.

[vs_lhr]

So why so rude to crew? No trick question, honest answer appreciated.

Ok, I'll have a stab at it.

The reason, I think, why you seeing a less favourable reaction to the crew dispute than for nurses/teachers/etc has to do with the scale of the offer and how it has reached this stage.

Take point one. You tell someone that Virgin crew are striking, they ask 'what were they offered', and when they hear 4.8% they may be a little taken aback by that headline number. Probably twice or more what they managed this year. Forget that they don't know the detail; but from a layman's point of view, it's rather better than inflation. When the Nurses threatened action back in November, it was because their offer was 2.5% in two stages - a deal worth less than 2% a year. The teachers got their feathers ruffled for a similar 2% deal in April. So you have to admit, people see 4.8% for a perceived "glamourous" job and wonder why you're complaining.

Then there's point two. And this is a reason why those more closely involved may feel a little acrimonious. Unite (and Boyd in particular) have really screwed this up - they have given the company the impression they had a deal at least twice, only for the membership to reject it. If they had properly gauged their own membership, it wouldn't have gone to a strike ballot.

Even now, staring the industrial dispute down the barrel of a gun, the union still haven't clearly identified what the membership want. It is the most ludicrous situation possible - thousands of employees prepared to bring the company to its knees, but unsure of what they are actually striking for. Perhaps you can see, the view from other employees positions is that jeopardising their future pay and even their job security is unreasonable unless you can be clear about what deal you actually want.

[016FSM]

Hey, sign it to your room, Crew down has ALWAYS been a problem but it has become worse in the last 4 years or so since the company started filling our rosters with 5 flights most months.

Years ago we would do 3 or 4 a month and very occasionally 5 but that was quite unusual. Now we get 5 most months and sometimes even 6!
5 night stops in a month is a killer and crew go sick because they really need some time off to get back onto a regular time zone for a few days and have a proper rest.

The company has expanded SO dramatically over the last few years, new routes, additional services on existing ones that they just can't get enough crew to cover all the flights. The turnover is very high due to the huge work load and minimal salary so people want to do the job but after a few months, find that they just can't live on the salary so leave.

I know i've mentioned it b4, but remember, we do plenty of flights where we don't even get a rest during the flight, so try doing that on 4 out of 5 flights for a few months!!

Many people including RB are saying we shouldn't compare ourselves to BA, on the subject of money that is, but why on earth should they have guaranteed rest on every single flight that they do and yet we can sometimes only manage an hour on a 10 hour flight to LA!! And still people on here keep complimenting VS crew on their wonderuful service in the cabin!!!

[rebellion]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7165490.stm

There you have it from RB himself, if you don't like it leave!!

What a total plonker, all of those who wheren't going to strike will probably go on strike now after that nonsense!

Good Luck guys- your overworked, underpaid and UNDER VALUED!

[fireflybob]

I was amazed when I heard Branson's comments this morning - almost guaranteed to generate strike action now!

[Right Way Up]

So SRB has finally lost the plot publically. If the CC union couldn't organise a meaningful direction for its members, then old Dickie has surely done that for them now. Unfortunately he has always been a fair weather boss. Throw a party, round up a crew in the Caribbean to play with, he will always be there. Unfortunately when things are tough its not quite as much fun for him anymore. I'll never forget his disappearing act when redundancies were being made after 9/11. Good luck to the crew at VS!

BTW his line that you get perks at his smaller friendlier company disappeared in the late 90's when he allowed his company to get as bloated as BA with acquisitions such as the Office. We all just became numbers!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

016FSM

I just looked through some old payslips from 10 years ago. From March 97' to Nov 97' I do not recieve a single crew down payment. I then get 1 crew down in Dec and 1 in Jan 98' then it continues for 98' with a smattering of incidents, nowhere like the problem we have now and I think your reasoning for this sums it up!

VS LHR

Thanks for honest response. I believe that had BB and management offered us 4.8% with no strings attached and a solid promise to resolve working conditions (Crew Down/IFE/Catering/Crew Rest) then there would be no strike.

[vs_lhr]

What a total plonker, all of those who wheren't going to strike will probably go on strike now after that nonsense!

Reading the latest post on cabincrew.com, it looks like that opinion can go either way. Some who where previously going to strike now see this as a futile action in the face of the SRB publicity machine.

Thanks for honest response. I believe that had BB and management offered us 4.8% with no strings attached and a solid promise to resolve working conditions (Crew Down/IFE/Catering/Crew Rest) then there would be no strike.

Unfortunately Boyd "believed" he had already secured deals twice that he thought the membership would accept. It would seem the deal that you would have accepted may not be the deal everyone would have accepted; and the fatal flaw for Unite is they did not, and still have not, ascertained that. Now 4.8% and no strings just looks like a pipe dream.

[scoobydooo]

Take point one. You tell someone that Virgin crew are striking, they ask 'what were they offered', and when they hear 4.8% they may be a little taken aback by that headline number. Probably twice or more what they managed this year

VS_LHR, I totally agree, I was out for dinner with some friends the other day and they asked, "what's this about Virgin going on strike, we always thought you guys loved the company ?". That is how Virgin was and still is perceived in some publics eyes. I told them 4.8%, as you say, that is a good payrise. I then told them what our basic was and chins nearly hit the floor.

I explained the issues as SITYR and 016 has regarding crew down and the impact this has on them the flying customer. Obviously one response was but what about all the lovely places you get to go ? I had to agree I have been to some lovely places but explained that unfortunately after a period seeing lovely places doesn't pay the bills. So then they said, what about other airlines what do they make ? So BA came up (so as has been said they got loads o' money - in Harry Enfield voice) but we discussed what other airlines do with duty pay per hour you are away from base. We discussed record sickness this Christmas (as I am hearing), a sure sign of morale amongst the crew, it was record sickness last year and now even higher this year. We discussed the future and what changes we expect might happen this year. I firmly believe Virgin will join other airlines in putting the squeeze on and trying to get us operating as close to minimum rest as possible downroute in order to try and squeeze more out of us, probably the only reason they have not managed it so far is because the pilots more than likely refuse to do it which protects us, but I can see that being the next focus.

The public love the product and I love delivering the product when I have the correct tools for it, take all the tools out of my toolbox (crew) then I will still try and do what I can but the job might not be as professional compared to if I had all my tools.

Finally it seems my voice/disappointment/reaction to Dickies letter a few days back was not on its tod, the news sure knows how to paint a picture.

[vs_lhr]

but to allow it to go out in the first place

Looking at what they quoted, I suspect they got everything they need from PPRuNe. So the "leak" is Scooby....! Scooby - you're a mole; how's it feel ;)

That is how Virgin was and still is perceived in some publics eyes. I told them 4.8%, as you say, that is a good payrise. I then told them what our basic was and chins nearly hit the floor.

Exactly, although for the 99.99% of the population, you don't get the chance to explain the backstory in order to give them any other perspective on it. And now the BBC are quoting figures of "8.3% on basic pay over two years", it will be difficult for crew to generate much sympathy with the general public.

[Justanotherpax]

I can't believe how twisted that BBC report is!!

I think a more measured view should be taken by reading RBs actual comments, rather than conveniently over-reacting wildly to the BBC headline.

I think the headline "Branson tells strikers to resign" along with the subheading "Worth the perks?" (which incidentally was never mentioned as such in the text below) is a serious inflammation of the facts, and only serves to aggravate the situation.

Another example of left-leaning BBC reporting.

[Right Way Up]

Justanotherpax,
If you live by the sword you die by the sword. RB has manipulated the media to the hilt in the past. It may just be catching up with him now.

[Justanotherpax]

RWU, fair point well made.

[016FSM]

The above comments really sum up what so many people think we do in our jobs! Fly to exotic destinations worldwide and serve tea and coffee!! If only they really knew how many of us have saved lives, performed CPR on people during flights, had to restrain violent passengers using handcuffs and other restraints, are verbally ubused by obnoxious passengers, clear up vomit whilst looking after people who aren't well along with the hundreds and of other medical related incidents that happen on a daily basis. Your lives are in OUR hands when you're flying so should you ever have a heart attack, stroke or other serious affliction when you're flying and somewhere over the middle of Afghanistan, you better hope that you have a good and more importantly experienced crew on your aircraft!! And of course don't forget that if there there's a fire on that aircraft, or a decompression or other safety related problem, it's the crew who are going to help to get you off safely, passengers can of course help to a degree, but they do not have the training or experience that we have. Let's hope that you never end up on an aircraft full of 19 and 20 year old crewe when you fall seriously ill or find that a fire is blazing because you may, if you're vey lucky, just live to eat your words!!

Secondly,

Richard has manipulated the press for Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears!! How often do you read anything bad in the press about RB or Virgin? Rarely!!

How often over the years have you read bad things that have happened to BA, their crew or assoociated events?

We have had many very newsworthy stories over the years but the press won't touch them and even this looming strike action has been minimally reported and mainly overshadowed by the BAA threatened strike. Well RB's appreciation letter attracted some press thankfully, one of the rare occassions that he wasn't seen as the golden eyed boss in the eyes of the public! His letter in which he told his staff how much he appreciated them basically said, thanks for sticking by me for all these years, (for the longer serving staff) and helping us survive while so many others went under, but now if you can no longer support your lifestyle on the salary we pay, then it's time for you to look elsewhere!! Well thanks Richard, it's been a pleasure, do let us know if there's anything else we can help out with in the meantime!!

[Foxtrot Oscar]

I can vouch for G-Unit, he is what he says he is.

I get the impression he may be fishing for a bite or two.
Whilst i agree cabin crew do more than serve drinks etc I don't think the current situation will generate any public sympathy for your cause.

Richard Branson has a history of getting what he wants (most billionaires tend to) and I am in no doubt he can be a manipulative person to work for/with, the point I suppose is, if there are people prepared to work for him at the rates he offers, why pay more?

[016FSM]

Unfortunately we are very used to dealing with ignorant comments such as that Kelas on a daily basis. We deal with people who shout and scream and threaten to sue us because they didn't get their first choice of meal, so you ignorant comment only goes to reflect your own lack of education. Many of us who fly are very well educated and this is the profession we have chosen.

I hope that one day you're on one of my flights and you require urgent medical attention and it's just you and me. Let's see then how uneducated you think I am. I hope for your sake that I prove not to be because it may just be me who saves your life!!

[vs_lhr]

We have had many very newsworthy stories over the years but the press won't touch them and even this looming strike action has been minimally reported and mainly overshadowed by the BAA threatened strike. Well RB's appreciation letter attracted some press thankfully, one of the rare occassions that he wasn't seen as the golden eyed boss in the eyes of the public!

Interesting how different people can read a different spin on a story. The feel I got from the BBC story (and bearing in mind they're not offering a cabin crew 'voice', so it's more sided on Virgin's position) is that the crew are making unrealistic demands on the company. Rejecting a 4.8% deal that was worth 8.3%; Virgin won't be meeting "dangerous" pay demands; "A Virgin Atlantic spokesperson said that since the letter was sent, a number of union members had contacted management, offering to cross the picket line and work on the strike days." - this reads more in VS's favour than crew's to me. (I do note that the story appears to have had a minor update since it was first published)

It looks like the story (which I still believe originated from Scooby's post) has already had the hand of the Virgin PR empire on it. And this will just be the tip of the iceberg.

[greigok]

So who has seen Ifly and the incentives that VS are offering. My guess most will forget striking and go to work as it's money whats important to most of the crew here.

With regards to earlier comments regarding Crew Down and being the highest on record over xmas...well if people want to party do it downroute and do not call in sick. Crew Down has alot to do with people faking sickness and then your asking for crew down payments.

I do agree you need more money and i know you do a really hard job..people do not undestand how hard you work on a lagos or a full las vegas. But i do think what was offered was the best you were going to get. Dis-regard crew down as that's an issue where crew need to call in sick when they actually are.

I have friends that work for BA...and they operate there long hail flights with less crew than you guys and this is standard. Now there flights are alot busier and they do not get crew down payments. Also stop comparing the wages to other airlines...VS is the only airline that just does long haul. All the other airlines cater for long and short combined.

Again i know how hard you guys work and im looking to get a mortgage with my other half who works for Virgin and his pay will not be a problem. I live in the south east where the property is more expensive aswell.

Good luck guys with whatver you decide to do and keep up all the hard work and much respect to you for all the hard busy flights that i know you work.:D

[vs_lhr]

Vs_LHR, not me I promise, but it has been known for papers to read these forums and approach people asking for info. One would have to be careful though as our contracts probably say something about talking to the press in a virgin capacity.

I don't think you did it deliberately; but the only 'quote' the BBC has from Branson is the line you put online here, and the other details in their story could have been written up just by reading PPRuNe. You're our very own Deep Throat! Take it as a compliment ;)

[Hand Solo]

I have friends that work for BA...and they operate there long hail flights with less crew than you guys and this is standard. Now there flights are alot busier and they do not get crew down payments

???? BA operate a long haul 747 with 15 crew but they have 4 supervisory grades on board and a maximum of 337 passengers, which is a lot less than passengers than a Virgin 747 I'm told. They also will work down, but only one down and they get a minimum payment of about £170 for their troubles!

[trollytom]

I am new to PPRuNe today and have been crew at VS for almost 4yrs
I am all for people having their own opinion however think that the insulting comments from some people who are more than likely just here to wind others up and would urge others to ignore their juvenile playground style comments.
We work bl**dy hard in the job that we do - its not often mentally hard but can be physically demanding - long days minimal rest time differences grumpy rude sometimes violent passengers crew down and many many other factors however Yes we choose to do the job many people I work with have degrees are very highly educated and choose the job because it is the lifestlye they wish to adopt. Again Yes we all knew the starting salary when we joined and I am not comparing us to BA or anyone else but the pay we earn for the job we do is NOT acceptable and if going on strike helps demonstrate this then so be it. It need not have got to this stage had virgin played fair and offered realistic offer initially then we would not be faced with this predicament now. I am not an outspoken individual who does not understsand the serious of the situation we are currently in however i am one who stands up for my rights and VS have got it SO So wrong they need to start respecting us for the work that we do. We are no longer the family sized airline that started out 23 yrs ago we have grown and therefore they need to adapt and recognise the work that we do.
A value of my previous company - look after your staff and they will look after your customers is perhaps something Virgin should adopt - The letter I received from RB this morning saying we need to focus on customers now is not the right angle. You look after us £ T & C and we will look after the punters therefore generating revenue and profit for you its a simple formula but get it right and you would not be in this mess.

I only hope that those who voted Yes to Strike and have been rostered flights on the Striking dates will be prepared to show their faces and stand up for what they believe in.

Why should FSM,s be on lower pay than SEP instructors or other managers on the ground.? When that flight takes off they are (after flight deck ) they are soley responsible for the welfare of all on board and yes most flights will probably pass without incidence howeven when things go wrong - a heart attack - a pregnant passenger goes in to labour a fire disruptive passenger Whatever they and the crew on board are the ones who have to deal with it and the skills which we are required to use are of such a level that requires more monies. This is just talking about fsm - i am cabin crew and why should i not be able to go and get a mortgage We all deserve better money for the work that we do.

The people who are saying we are silly to strike are fools they will accept a payrise when one is offered I hope that they are thanking us then ! Dont say I cant afford to strike ! Hold out and show the bosses at VAA we have been treated poorly for too long and we now are prepared to voice our opinions.
Id love to write more hope ive not taken over I gotta go out for NYE lunch now so Happy New Year all and hope to write soon

[greigok]

I take it you fly for BA. I definately know the gatwick fleet that do longhaul do not get crew down payment at all!!! With regards to LHR my friend has never received that payment on a 747 and also operate with more passengers than 337 im afraid.

[kwachon]

Now I know why I left England during the eighties, maybe the influx of foreign workers will be rubbing their hands with glee.

I for one will continue my sojourn in the middle east and return to my home in the USA where this kind of debacle is an everyday event. You get used to it and leave, find a new employer and get happy again.

All part of aviation in this dog eat dog world right now and I am a pilot!.

[016FSM]

BA have a very small number of first class passengers, 10 or 12 I believe, a fair size business cabin and small economy cabin. Until recently, Virgin has had 40 Upper class pax, between 30 and 40 premium depending on the aircraft, and anywhere from 375 to 400 in economy depending on the aircraft. Virgin's upper class cabin now holds 50 passengers and the premium around the same I believe. Economy has been reduced to around 300. Remember that our upper service rivals other airline's first class service, so it's not over in 5 minutes, it has to be delivered with all the trimmings!

The crew working positions are very very different to those at BA and BA do not do the number of services that Virgin have to do. Even with 17 crew, Virgin crew are pushed to the limits and some pax still complain that our service is too slow and we obviously don't have enough crew!! I have dealth with those kind of complaints on numerous ocassions!

BA crew openly tell their customers not to use their call bells unless they REALLY have to, Virgin pax use them continuously and the crew have to answer each one every time it goes off and wouldn't dare tell someone not to use it, unlike BA!!

[scoobydooo]

I only hope that those who voted Yes to Strike and have been rostered flights on the Striking dates will be prepared to show their faces and stand up for what they believe in.

trollytom do you mean "NOT show their faces" to work ;)

[trollytom]

Oops - sorry scooby i mean Show their faces at the picket line or whereever else we gather to demonstrate our beliefs!!

[greigok]

I take it you fly wiith BA alot...then to witness what you have just said. As i have already said in a previous post i know you work very hard and im not saying you do not deserve more money. Im saying cc need to stop comparing themselves to other airlines when VS is the only one that just does Long Haul.

With reagrds to pay i feel that the FSM and CSS position is well underapaid and i know how hard you work and the responsibility you carry. My partner is a css and i hear and have seen how hard he works. You do deeserve a pay rise and perhaps questions need to be asked about the fsm and css pay being dealt with seperatley. If this was done then im sure you guys would not be striking now.

With regards to the CC i think 4.8 is an acceptable pay offer with RPI cuurently at 3.3 looking at being by 4.4 by April 08...that makes it a good offer, with the new talks starting again in April.

Again I know how hard you work and you do work bloody hard!:D

[do-not-disturb]

I have read all the threads on this topic and would like to share my views with you, rightly or wrongly.

Firstly, I am VS cabin crew (JNR) and have been for a few years.

Secondly, I am not in the Union, for precisely this reason, when they need to earn their pennies and their back is against the wall, they let their members down, which will be evident later during industrial action.

I would emplore every single cabin crew member who voted yes to industrial action to seriously think about what they are doing for the future of their company and the security of their jobs.

I left a better paid job to come to virgin, and I joined knowing full well that the salary wasn’t great, but that was the choice I made, and adjusted my means to get by.

We all want more money, every single one of us, Human nature unfortunately dictates that these days, but please be realistic in what you are demanding. I listen to crew who voted for action and in asking them why, I get very different reasons. The majority I have spoken to actually say “because we have had enough of being treated like Sh*t” or similar, that “we want to be recognised and rewarded for what we do”. A lot of people say its because they want more money, but it hasn’t been the majority voice, so I’m left very confused as to what the strike action will be for.

Lets go waaayyy back to the start of the pay negotiations. Any pay increase (which can also be called “cost of living rise”) should be based on cost of living (inflation) and any changes to the role in question, ie, new/more work, increase or new skills used or reward for any training or specialist new to that role. In the last twelve months there have been no changes to the role of cabin crew in any rank, therefore the pay increase, it is fair to say therefore, can only be based on inflation. We actually work less as well, thanks to the 900hr rule.

Inflation at the time I believe was 3.9%, so , and this is where the whole thing starts…. The offer of a 2% pay increase by the Director of Cabin Services was a complete insult and a clear statement that she and her management team held little or no regard or respect for the community for which she is accountable, and it has been this initial insult which is the backbone of the industrial action.

Strip everything else away and what you have is an offer of basic increase of 4.8%, no strings, which is above inflation, higher than any other uk airline, so how can that not be deemed reasonable and fair???

So if industrial action is to have better terms and conditions and to feel more valued for the job we do, then PLEASE DO NOT STRIKE. Accept the 4.8% and use your union further to put pressure on the company to ‘shake the management tree’ as there is a vote of no confidence in the management team, where implied trust and confidence has broken down.

If you want more money, PLEASE DO NOT STRIKE. This is what has been offered, so accept it and use it as foundations for future pay negotiations as the crew community will certainly be a body that will be listened to carefully in the future.

Many comparisons are made between BA, pilots, ground staff, sep trainers. Forget this. BA is a different kettle of fish. Always will be. If you want to come up to the same level as BA, then use your union to negotiate higher rates of overtime pay, day off payments, trip allowance, crew down payments, incentives on high sickness routes. This is where BA earn their money, due to what they have got their union to negotiate for them, separate to basic pay increase. Pilots have a much stronger union and have differing terms and conditions which are contractual. There is a worldwide shortage of pilots, which is why terms and conditions are more favourable. Even at the low salary offered, there is no end of applications for cabin crew, and this has to be realised and accepted.

As I go into the new year, it is with sadness and fear, as I am unsure what the future holds for me, as do those that will strike.

I can’t help thinking that where we are divided at the moment, some of those who strike and some of us that don’t will be joined together at a later date either at interviews at other airlines, or signing on the dole, due to the damage this will cause. One step at a time guys. They know they’ve ballsed up. Give them a chance to make it right. It won’t be over night and it won’t be all at once. I write this with the upmost respect for all the views printed on previous threads. Best regards

[scoobydooo]

With regards to the CC i think 4.8 is an acceptable pay offer with RPI cuurently at 3.3 looking at being by 4.4 by April 08...that makes it a good offer, with the new talks starting again in April.

Typo ? RPI for November was published at 4.3.

[vs_lhr]

TrollyTom, welcome to the party, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to pick you up on a few points as some of the ground has been covered before.

I am all for people having their own opinion however think that the insulting comments from some people who are more than likely just here to wind others up and would urge others to ignore their juvenile playground style comments.

After making a statement like that, it's best not to follow it with opinions which are likely to wind others up. A robust debate necessitates strong opinions from both sides, and if you can't take it, don't dish it.


Yes we all knew the starting salary when we joined and I am not comparing us to BA or anyone else but the pay we earn for the job we do is NOT acceptable and if going on strike helps demonstrate this then so be it.

If you joined 4 years ago, and were happy to accept the salary then, I am confused why you would want any more than inflationary increases from that point four years ago? I know this is a controversial point, but whilst I can understand the motives of really long-term crew for whom their pay hasn't tracked inflation over many years, for relative newbies to the airline, I struggle to understand why you're so militant when you walked into the job fully aware of the deal. Trying to bring the company down because you decide after a few years that the management simply have to improve your pay way beyond inflation isn't playing fair.

It need not have got to this stage had virgin played fair and offered realistic offer initially then we would not be faced with this predicament now.

Poppycock. Virgin not only believed they had reached agreement with the union, they also went beyond the union demands in the last offer. This is mostly the union's faulty for not understanding the expectations of its own membership. Some of the blame must also go to the person behind WDMM, who stirred up crew opinion behind the scenes based on false logic, woolly facts and a complete misunderstanding of the financial operation. WDMM undermined any good intentions of both the union and management.

The letter I received from RB this morning saying we need to focus on customers now is not the right angle. You look after us £ T & C and we will look after the punters therefore generating revenue and profit for you its a simple formula but get it right and you would not be in this mess.

Don't you think it's rather strange then, with your business acumen, that you are only cabin crew and Richard Branson is the chairman of about 300+ successful businesses? There are far too many people who claim to have the magic solution to running the business, but very little of it is based on practical experience.

Why should FSM,s be on lower pay than SEP instructors or other managers on the ground.?

>sigh<

Simple economics. More people want the FSM job (because they get to fly) than the SEP instructors job. I dare say you can also get paid more wiping old people's bottoms in a care home, but it's not a particularly attractive job, and there's not often a queue around the job centre for those. I know this doesn't sound particularly fair, but that's the cold reality of business. Pay as little as you can get away with; and as long as there's a high number of job applicants, you can get away with remarkably little.

This is just talking about fsm - i am cabin crew and why should i not be able to go and get a mortgage We all deserve better money for the work that we do.

The job is what it is, and has the salary attached. No one has the right to receive any more than the minimum wage for the job they do - anything more is just the market forces at work to attract the right number of qualified people to the positions available. Hey, I want a new car, but the reality of the situation is my old one will have to make do until it falls apart; and then, much as always, I'll buy another second hand one. I don't blame Virgin for that.

I gotta go out for NYE lunch now so Happy New Year all and hope to write soon

I shall be spending NYE indoors - as usual - because price gouging on this one night of the year puts public enjoyment of the event beyond the price I'm willing to pay. Hope you all have a Happy New Year.

[greigok]

So scooby what % are you actually looking for?

[scoobydooo]

My gripes and wish list is buried somewhere deep in the last thread and the one before that, offer inflation without strings and redirect remaining funds into trip pay to make trip pay more (thus making it expensive to not be at work, targets sickness).

Move forward to next talks addressing.....

Bring onbaord managerial role pay in line with other airlines
Sensible Working up Payments
Sensible Crew down payments (to encourage correct manning levels)
Introduction of length of service increments (reward loyalty)
Overhaul of the allowance scheme (flat rate hourly or similar to reduce )amount of people trying to swap off and on to low/high paid trips) another reason for sickness

That would be a starting list, all massive projects but gains in there for both the company and employee.

Just a small list then :) but this time round, 1 year deal RPI no strings and sensible trip pay, the rest to be discussed moving forward with a lot more crew involvement.

[greigok]

Scooby i do agree that that length of service increments is needed for all tiers of the crew. You get this in most work places and this would be a good step in the right direction.

Although you have made good points you need find out what everybody else wants ...as it seems everyone wants different things.

You have made some good points so have you voiced this to the union...i fell though after the incentives that VS are now offering on ifly this will all fall flat and second strike in January will ot go ahead.

Leaving everybody with a ? over how much they will receive.

[scoobydooo]

Yes I sent my thought to BB and Dk a long time ago. Not seen the incentives yet as cant seem to login to secure pages at the mo, what they offering about £200 a flight at a guess in the hand ?

[greigok]

One off £150 disruption payment per trip, guaranteed to be a minimum of £100 after tax
Guaranteed minimum 4 crew down payment £160 e.g. even if you are only 1 crew member down you will receive £160 (if 5 crew down, a payment of £250 will apply)
Trip pay and allowances will be paid as normal
Help with hotel accommodation and travel if required before trip

If you go on strike your roster will be wiped and they will fit you in where they can...so i guess that will be febuary.

Im guessing most crew will see this and forget striking!

[scoobydooo]

So, £150 to operate a flight and £160 in crew down payment guaranteed, total £310, less tax & NI (30%) circa £217. So perhaps if you do 2 of these then its £434 extra for going to work on the 2 blocks of strike days. That's good money, ah but if I average it over 12 months it's £36.17 per month, now what was the last pay deal worth to me , oh yes I remember assuming 5 trips a month a junior stood to take home an extra £39.61 per month. http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3616165&postcount=211 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3616165&postcount=211) so still actually by going into work on the strike days people will be worse of in one year than if I they accepted the last offer.


That's just over 1 year. Lets look at over the next 5 years any bargaining power the union has/had would be gone in effect we would probably be setting ourselves up for the union disintegration.... maybe that is why the company likes this, they might see this as a way to get rid of the cabin crew union ??


Hopefully people will see big picture, though I am sure there will be an element of crew (perhaps only here for the jolly) who will take the lolly not caring about the future.

As for scratching the rest of my roster after the strike dates, that's fine by me, but my days off are my days off.


I see the big freeze is forecast next week too snow Ice and -12 and maybe -17 in the midlands !! brrrr See Yahoo for details. so now we have bad weather, baa and virgin, it's going to make for a horrid start to the new year.


Out of interest what is min crew to despatch a 74 or scarebus I cant remember, I should probably know it too ! oops :ooh:

[greigok]

Yeah you will have days off after they scrap the rosters but prob not the same ones you have at the monent.

I also think wit Crew calling in sick having to speak to crew control and then being put through to a cabin crew manager...they will just cry off and not bother calling in sick now. They are asking for Docs certificates however many days you have off so thats complusory..so crew will not wanna do that.

But to be honest if half the crew from union go in then the union have lost anyway..then it will all be lost.

So who knows..will have to wait and see. They will not give in...but i do just give this the 1st strike and then it will be over and the union will have to concede.

[scoobydooo]

No,I think my rostered Days off are my rostered days off, as far as I am aware they are protected and cant be changed, though I will check with the union.

I now have the full release, thanks for the Personal message from person who shall remain nameless.

Genuine Sickness.
& I stress this is re genuine sickness

The rules regarding sickness are grey again, they say everyone has to produce a sickness note from the doctor and you will only receive SSP if off sick. If you are genuinely sick the company has no honour your contract which pays full salary when off sick and if they dont you may pursue this legally and probably with union assitance (if there was ever a reason to be a union member here is one) anyone genuinely falling sick is being persecuted. - you have done nothing wrong and are only off work due to sickness.

Anyone is allowed to self certify 7 days, most doctors will charge for a private medical note for anything shorter than this, so this should be reclaimed from the company if they demand it (get manager you speak to to confirm the company will pickup the tab) otherwise you will be left out of pocket. To be sure about this I asked an employment lawyer;

If your contract/ handbook states that you are entitled to full pay during sickness (or possibly even if it is stated to be discretionary but as a matter of custom and practice full pay is always given) then you could argue a breach of contract if you only receive SSP. Best to get signed off by GP for any period of sickness in the circumstances so that you have some evidence in your favour as may have to prove that absence due to sickness was genuine. If someone is genuinely off sick and it could be a long term illness (ie illness could last for 12 months or more even though the absence may not be that long) then might possibly amount to disability discrimination too.

I see if anyone does work the strike days they dont have to wear uniform too, they can come in in civis and change, maybe they will offer a payment for the best disguise too ;)

I hope the crew volunteer email address doesn't fill up too quickly with spam. Maybe those in favour of action should all volounteer to work so the company believes it has the flights crewed and then not arrive in order to ensure disruption (Yes I know its Dirty, but the gloves are off now) You cant buy democracy. :=

[vs_lhr]

So, £150 to operate a flight and £160 in crew down payment guaranteed, total £310, less tax & NI (30%) circa £217. So perhaps if you do 2 of these then its £434 extra for going to work on the 2 blocks of strike days. That's good money, ah but if I average it over 12 months it's £36.17 per month, now what was the last pay deal worth to me , oh yes I remember assuming 5 trips a month a junior stood to take home an extra £39.61 per month. http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3616165&postcount=211 so still actually by going into work on the strike days people will be worse of in one year than if I they accepted the last offer.

I assume crew would get the company-wide increase, so add 2% onto that and you'll be better off over the year than the 4.8%.

Bear in mind, that last deal is now off the table; so for many, it's a choice between that (and I'd need to know your working figures to get the exact percentages, but call it 4.5% + 2%), or just the 2% (if, indeed, crew are offered that). That sounds like a significantly better offer, and the beauty for Virgin is that they only have to offer it to staff who support them during the strike. Sweet. :ok:

[scoobydooo]

True, I imagine the facebook hall of shame with photos of those that operated would cause great shame :yuk: and we know it will happen, everything ends up on facebook or some other website these days !

[greigok]

Scooby check with the union about your days off but like everythinh else they will not know the answers...hence the position your in now.

With regards to sickness...it is up to Virgin if they want to ask for a Doctors certificate after however many days they want. As lets face it...most crew are going to call in sick...eventhough these same crew said yes to the strike. Then a interview with a cabin crew manager i can't see many crew holding up under that pressure.

Just be honest and call up and say your striking if thats what you choose.

[greigok]

I don't think people going into work will be ashamed...let's be honest there be the ones that have kept the airline flying and if you do get an increase or whatever the cc want then you can have an album for all the people that work with there pictures saying thank you.

Plus you will not be allowed anywhere near crew check in if you are not flying...security measure...so dunno who would take the pics.

[vs_lhr]

The rules regarding sickness are grey again, they say everyone has to produce a sickness note from the doctor and you will only receive SSP if off sick. If you are genuinely sick the company has no honour your contract which pays full salary when off sick and if they dont you may pursue this legally and probably with union assitance (if there was ever a reason to be a union member here is one) anyone genuinely falling sick is being persecuted. - you have done nothing wrong and are only off work due to sickness.

I suspect the company have no beef with anyone who is genuinely sick, but you cannot deny that large numbers of crew have been advocating calling in sick in order to either still receive payment when they are on strike, or just to semi-support the strike without the conviction to say so. Either way, those staff are technically in breech of their contract by striking, so Virgin does not have to honour sick pay policy. Indeed, there is criminal intent in obtaining money by deception, and that could be considered an act of gross misconduct; and you'd be out of the door without need for disciplinary procedures.

Now I understand that this will mean more rigourous checking of genuine cases, and it is normal for companies to cover the expense of a medical certificate if required under 7 days; but Virgin are within their right to protect their business, and don't doubt that they will be asking for proof if you are sick during the strike. You won't be able to hide behind technicalities in policy, but then if you are genuinely sick, you have nothing to worry about.

Whether the company is allowed to switch to SSP only, then, as you say, it's a bit of a grey area. No disrespect; but I suspect the (large) VS legal team have looked into this a little more carefully than the advice of your employment lawyer. If you want to fight the company for the difference between SSP and normal sick pay; good luck to you.

[greigok]

Well said and this is the same for any business that has staff that belong to a union.

[scoobydooo]

greigok,

That's why I stressed re genuine sickness only, people who are sick should not be pressured to come to work it is unsafe for all concerned and if anyone does pressure you to come to work when you are sick then the union and CAA should be involved quick smart. If anyone is genuinely sick please take managers name that pressures you, if you can call from your mobile and record the call, most phones can do this. Again I stress my post is in relation to genuine genuine genuine sickness only.

edit to add, if I did fall sick and was unable to operate/strike then I would more than happily take on the company and probably with the unions help. My source is an employment lawyer for large city firm so please dont disrespect me, you find the law that contradicts me and then contradict me, Virgin would have numerous claims if it tried this with GENUINELY ILL people.

[greigok]

If it is a genuine sickness then your doctor would have no problem in providing you with a doctors certificate even after a day. This will then prove to your manager that it is genuine.

[greigok]

Scooby can i just ask..why do you choose to work for VS and not for BA? Will not shoot you down for whatever answer you may give im just wondering as you seem unhappy. But it is the union who are meant to be fighting your cause..so you should be unhappy with them. You may have said before but i have only been on here today.

[scoobydooo]

If it is a genuine sickness then your doctor would have no problem in providing you with a doctors certificate even after a day. This will then prove to your manager that it is genuine.


Yes, but there is a fee for this (anything less than 7 days stat), normally £30-£40 which the company should accept and state in its guidelines that it will recoup as it is changing its sickness policy, remember a genuinely ill crew member has not breached any contract.

Re me unhappy, no I just fight for what I believe in as do obviosuly many others (votes). I love working for virgin but it needs to come into the 21st century regarding its employee relations, the straw that broke the camels back was this set of poorly handled negotiations and the direspect towards crew displayed with it. Should I have to throw away years of seniority for that and become a junior at another airline becasue of it ?

Got to go now, NYE and need to ensure I get a good table in my favourite bar. Have a great one everyone. :ok:

[016FSM]

As the ongoing arugments for and against this strike continue, just a few comments from me as food for thought before I get ready to welcome in the New Year which hopefully will be happier and more lucrative for us all!!

Having been in the company for over 20 years I have seen a lot of changes and have really seen VS grow from being a 2 aircraft 2 route company to a major player in the field. We used to have amazing benefits and perks years ago but as the company grew many of these were taken away and/or cut back. I feel like so many others that we are majorly undervalued and underpayed, but Sir RB is a clever ole dude and didn't get to where he is today by being outwitted by his staff.

I voted NO to all the pay offers as on my salary, it still didn't bring it into line with what I should be earning at my age and with my length of service, I also voted YES to strike as I truly believed with an overwhelming majority, the company would take it very seriously and start to re negotitate, but they haven't, they're digging in their heels and have withdrawn the original offer which we can now say goodbye to. They're also showing that they simply aint gonna give to our demands and will fight to the end!!

I would love to see the crew fight back and win this argument against the company but I really feel that there will only be one loser in the long term, the crew. I believe that after the strikes in Jan, IF they go ahead, that when crew start seeing the deductions in their pay packets and they are being rostered all the really low paid unpopular trips such as Los/Del/Mco/Lax/Nbo/Las etc etc, they will start to realise that they really are not going to win. Those who are waiting to be called for an interview for promotion, forget it, you'll be kept in your rank for a long ole time and those who helped the company through this time, will sail through. They'll also be the ones spending their time in Mauritius and other popular desitinations whilst you do 5 unpopular trips a month and with regards to having time off over Xmas/New year in the future, just don't expect too much!!

The union can help with many things and will look after you should the company try to 'screw' you, but with what I've mentioned above, they can't do a thing, everything is perfectly justifiable, your performance not up to scratch, it's just the way the rostering system works etc etc and should you ever be found with a piece of hand towel in your bag from the toilets on the aircraft, well you can use it to wrap your P45 up in!!

I know it sounds like i'm not being supportive, but i'm actually being realistic, I need to keep my job, I enjoy it and don't want it to turn into a nightmare for me, i like going to nice places as well as the less popular ones, I like being at home for Xmas and NYE sometimes and most importantly I need every penny that I earn, as little as it may be! I cannot afford to start having money deducted from me for 4 days a month to start and who knows what next!

In a company like BA, where union membership runs at almost 98% of whom 96% of those support a strike, the average age of crew and length of service is MUCH higher than VS and after all that they still ended up with nothing after their strike! Having said that, what do you honestly think is going to happen when Virgin have a half hearted attempt at striking backed by a confused and weak union and half their members who will probably ring in sick anyway instead of supporting the action? It's going to be a reall blooming mess and it will really not get us what we want. Let's think again, accept what they've already offered and when it's time to negotiate again, the company will realise that they cannot walk over us any longer! They'll listen and will never want to get to this stage again!

If you enjoy your jobs, don't throw it away, make your decision very very carefully and I speak as someone who has put up with this salary for a very long time!! Things HAVE improved in recent years all be it very slowly and that was without the union's help! Now we have an ever growing union, we can achieve so much more, but let's do it slowly and with caution, not by jumping in with both feet first just becase we can!!

Happy New Year everyone, have fun and be careful and make the right choice!

[Hubbly]

BA have a very small number of first class passengers, 10 or 12 I believe, a fair size business cabin and small economy cabin. Until recently, Virgin has had 40 Upper class pax, between 30 and 40 premium depending on the aircraft, and anywhere from 375 to 400 in economy depending on the aircraft. Virgin's upper class cabin now holds 50 passengers and the premium around the same I believe. Economy has been reduced to around 300. Remember that our upper service rivals other airline's first class service, so it's not over in 5 minutes, it has to be delivered with all the trimmings!
The crew working positions are very very different to those at BA and BA do not do the number of services that Virgin have to do. Even with 17 crew, Virgin crew are pushed to the limits and some pax still complain that our service is too slow and we obviously don't have enough crew!! I have dealt with those kind of complaints on numerous occasions!
BA crew openly tell their customers not to use their call bells unless they REALLY have to, Virgin pax use them continuously and the crew have to answer each one every time it goes off and wouldn't dare tell someone not to use it, unlike BA!!

I have to correct you here...BA have 14 First class seats, 52 or 70 Business class seats 36 World Traveller Plus seats and approx 212 economy seats on a 747.
Your last comment in bold just tells me that you are talking out of your nether regions in respect to what BA do or don't do on board. I only wish we could tell our passengers NOT to use the call bells, unfortunately we would not be doing our jobs if we did....now would we?

This strike thread is so interesting. It reminds me of when we BA crew were going to strike. the only difference being that we were willing to put our money where our mouths were. That is until we were sold out by our mother Union. Something which is still a sore point with many BA crew and the Union alike.

Good luck to you all whatever it is you decide to do. Ultimately if you strike does go ahead, you will all be affected regardless of what your choices may be.

Oh yes and 016FSM no doubt myself or some of my colleagues will be there to answer the call bells from some of those Virgin passengers who may be affected by your potential strike....LOL;):)

[greigok]

BAA strike called off then for the 7th Jan...so anyone wanted to strike for VS...will not cause a double blow...like some may have hoped.

[016FSM]

Hey Hubbly, I didn't mean any offence re call bells and service by BA crew. I have many friends who work for BA and most of them have flown Virgin at some time and told me that they simply don't put up with what we do in the cabin! T can't believe the way call bells on our flt's go off continuously and how we spend most the flight running up and down the aisles. They tell me things just aren't like that in BA!

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that our crew in economy are so much younger, people feel they can take more liberties, when the crew are older as they 'generally' are at BA, people don't act that way. I know that the older crew don't encounter as many problems as the younger ones and the passengers in the areas of those crew, don't tend to be so difficult! Explain that however you choose!!

[warkman]

Scoobydoo.
It's my understanding that Virgin management DID sit down and negotiate a deal with the union that included a 4.8% pay rise???

Isn't it then that the minority of total cabin crew turned this down against thier unions recommendations so that's why the deal is now off the table and why a minority will take strike action?

[nicecsd]

I am not sure what you offer so incredibly different from BA on your flights last time I flew VS the service in economy was much the same as BA with the exception of a jazzed up, pop cultured IFE and different uniforms it could have been the same airline..just not as relaxed I guess.

[scoobydooo]

New post as too much to edit last.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I take my hat off to the BAA management who have sat negotiating with the Union and made progress and thus agreed to call of the first of their strikes. Lessons can be learnt on both sides of the table.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7165196.stm

:D:D

Let's think again, accept what they've already offered and when it's time to negotiate again, the company will realise that they cannot walk over us any longer! They'll listen and will never want to get to this stage again!

016 - all offers are gone now, there is nothing to accept, we are now at stale mate and the only way forward is a united front otherwise the union is destroyed overnight, as mentioned earlier - perhaps this is the companies intention. If people do not commit now then they company will not fear the power of a collective workforce again , this will be seen as joke and any future negotiations will be futile.

I would have to disagree with you when you say things have been improving in recent years, things that spring to my mind are introduction of monthly standby, performance monitoring, fast tracking of people who have been in the company 5 mins, removal of crew rest areas, as many standby blocks as the company wants over Christmas (initial this was limited), sickness increasing each year etc etc.

The only improvement I can think of is Vswap, what things do you think have improved in recent years ? (The Base doesn't count, nor does losing £20 mil on virgin Nigeria)

[scoobydooo]

warkman, the union also recommended a horrific paydeal before that one too. Its one big mess, but as many others now that have been in the company a long time will probably consider leaving as the airline becomes more and more lo-co will probably have to charge pax for drinks and meals next, Upper class perks will be a free pack of pretzels :bored:

[vs_lhr]

Scooby, are you also eyesnears? If not, I'd get onto your lawyer for copyright theft (http://www.cabincrew.com/ccnetwork/forum_posts.asp?TID=26412&PID=316131#316131). ;)

[scoobydooo]

VSLHR you are on here nearly as much as me, we must both make a new years resolution to not spend hours on internet.

I am totally demoralised by all this now, think I will sink my head into a VAT of booze tonight and just see where the wind takes me.

So as I have tried many times before, but tonight my resolution is, "scoobydoo will RIP and stop posting on prune for Good, even though its like a drug habbit".

I stand by all my comments and wish everyone a happy New Year and hope that our respective leaders can just sit down and offer a deal that is not a million miles of the last one and develop a plan for moving forward in the years to try and address all the concerns that have been raised.

If there is an opening for a "crew -> management -> union " communications officer my hand is in the air. Our union needs to establish clear channels for crew to be able to offer constructive ideas, these must be allowed to be shared with the management (de-identified) similar to chirp. It is only through a process similar to this that enhancements which benefit everyone (crew, management and passengers) can a happier productive workplace be re-established.

We all learn that without communication there is no CRM, some communication came, but late in the day, too late.:uhoh:

Goodnight and farewell.

[JB1888]

SRB should be ashamed of himself, He sits in one of his many plush houses throughout the world, saying that if we are unhappy we should work elsewhere. Many many things have been said and it has taken a long long time to get to this stage, but lets not lose sight of the facts.

Do you think it is unreasonable to ask for more money when the cost of living is rocketing, somecabin crew are expected to live (survive) on £900 a month whilst living within 1hr 45 mins of LGW and LHR? That is the basis of the arguement. Too much has been said of Ba etc........

SRB was hailed as a champion of the people David Vs Goliath when he took on BA, well he has shown his true colours he is no champion. The only thing he cares about is how much profit he makes just like every other Fat Cat.

I can honestly say that I dont know what will be the outcome of this situation will be, but if for instance if we do not get a decent payrise and there is no backdated pay then the airline will have a more poisonous and dangerous atmosphere than there is now, and that is a fact.

I am an FSM who is scheduled to fly over the strike period and I can assure you that I will NOT be flying unless the union tell me otherwise.

Do I want to strike ...No Do I feel as if I have an option NO! There is deal to speak of any longer, the only chance we have is to voice our feelings.

Take care everyone and ahem...HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

[SpannersatVS]

Just heard what's being offered to fly during the strike. Can non CC within VS apply, sure sounds good to me & a better rate than working in the hangar:ok:

If you don't like it leave:yuk: I thought that was a comment only taught to BA management (and i was glad to leave that behind):ugh:

[Nov71]

Richard Branson has allegedly said that Virgin airline employees, dissatisfied with current pay & conditions, should resign (rather than take industrial action.)
The market is tough so is employment law on coercion
Has he become a MOL clone or just insensitive?
Could Virgin Atlantic survive if flight/cabin crew resigned en masse?

I would suggest an informed negotiation

[MAN330-300]

I have just been reading a few of the posts regarding pay and can I just ask do you not even benefit from yearly cost of living wage increases? As quoted above £ 900 seems very low for a London salary. I don't live in London however I would imagine one would need at least to be earning £ 25/30 k per year to live in the capital.

[back2front]

£900 in a good month. Last month I had less than £850 into my bank account. I did get allowances downroute of approx £400 but most of that is spent on food/living costs of being away from home.

Its an appalling salary especially having to live so close to London.

Shame on Richard Branson for even suggesting we should leave. Doesn't he realise there are many of us doing just that?

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I think that this attitude by Sir Richard is a tad outdated, And the totally wrong approach to his staff.:=

Sir Richard seems to be living 20 years behind everybody:bored::confused:

Happy New Year 2008.

[interpreter]

BYAPJAINDIA. As a businessman I cannot stand SRB BUT like it or not it is his airline to run. It has great potential provided that the "carbon footprint" fiasco doesn't bite hard on all airline when he will probably suffer more than others. With 2008 upon us I would say to all VCC if you wish to strike then so be it but whatever you do don't pretend you are sick. You are cheating yourelf and your colleagues and those passengers like my self and my wife, who think VCC are great.

My advice? Get REAL UNION NEGOTIATORS who understand the airline business,who know the stengths and weaknesses of Virgin in today's airline industry and who are not driven by a political agenda but simply to work WITH the employers to do the best for all staff. Altruistic? Yes - but certainly not impossible. Good luck in 2008 and please keep being as good at your job as you are. You put BACC into the shade.

[BEagle]

Sir Richard Branson is in severe danger of totally alienating his premier asset.....

You, the workforce who are the only 'face' of Virgin which the travelling public gets to see these days.

Branson seems hell bent on self-destruction these days, with his eco-freak envirofundamentalist global carbon nonsense. But he seems to turn a blind eye to the 'greenness' of his loony spaceship plans...

Whilst Virgin still has an excellent intangible asset in the public's view of the brand image, that alone is insufficient to pay the bills. Sadly, long time colleagues working in Virgin these days tell me that the company "Isn't what it once was"....:uhoh:

Hopefully sense will prevail and Branson will clarify the comment he made - which even O'Leary and whoever runs ba these days would be embarrassed to make, if it is actually what he said.

Good luck to you all for whatever 2008 may bring!!

[interpreter]

I am sure all of you have seen this clip but this is how it was when I was a young guy and still had not met my Airline Stewardess wife - 36 years now and still wonderful. Have a look and contemlate how things have changed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHnqnyzegfc#
Good luck for 2008

[vs_lhr]

I am sure all of you have seen this clip but this is how it was when I was a young guy and still had not met my Airline Stewardess wife - 36 years now and still wonderful. Have a look and contemlate how things have changed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHnqnyzegfc#

What a depressingly sexiest view of cabin crew. It's taken years (and still an uphill struggle with some) to break the stereotype of a leggy bimbo blonde whose only function is to serve drinks and giggle flirtingly with the passengers - thank god that isn't how it is now.

[stormin norman]

From the beeb

Sir Richard admitted that rival airlines often offered better basic wages but said that they did not offer the perks that came with working for a "smaller ,more friendly" company.

friendly ? sounds like it

[016FSM]

Richard's a bit outta touch these days!! He thinks we all still work for Virgin because it so much fun and the money is irrelevant!!

We used to be a small fun company up to about 10 - 12 years ago where everyone knew everyone, virtually. Now it's really no longer like that, the days of RB turning up to present the crew with their wings soon after they finish training has long gone and it's rare to fly with anyone anymore that you actually know! There's loads of back stabbing amongst some crew and many wouldn't think twice about reporting you to the office if it meant a browny point for them, so no, the company is no longer as small and friendly as it once was!

If the company can't afford to pay their existing crew a decent wage, then maybe they should stop expanding like crazy like they have done for the past 5 years and recruiting hundreds of new cabin crew! Look after the ones that already work for you instead of just replacing them because they're not happy!!!! He says we have such wonderful perks and benefits, we have the same benefits as all other personnel who work for airlines worldwide, both on the ground and as crew, but that's part of the package which comes with working for an airline. Most companies offer their staff perks or benefits of some kind but they don't compromise their salaries in return for these!!!

We do have an excellent package of discounts available to fly worldwide, but unfortunately, because most of us are struggling so much to live on the salaries that we earn, the last thing we can afford to do is take advantage of all these perks. Most of us take one holiday a year if that and when we go, it's stand by, so if the plane is full as it so oten is, we don't go anywhere! Try planning a holiday not knowing whether you'll get on the flight or not and likewise getting home as well, especially when you only have 7 days leave! Many crew end up booking a confirmed holiday elsewhere as opposed to going through the stress of trying to go on holiday and get home on stand by! It's meants to be a holiday to relax not worrying about whether you'll get on the aircraft and whether you'll be able to get home!!

[vs_lhr]

We do have an excellent package of discounts available to fly worldwide, but unfortunately, because most of us are struggling so much to live on the salaries that we earn, the last thing we can afford to do is take advantage of all these perks. Most of us take one holiday a year if that and when we go, it's stand by, so if the plane is full as it so oten is, we don't go anywhere! Try planning a holiday not knowing whether you'll get on the flight or not and likewise getting home as well, especially when you only have 7 days leave! Many crew end up booking a confirmed holiday elsewhere as opposed to going through the stress of trying to go on holiday and get home on stand by! It's meants to be a holiday to relax not worrying about whether you'll get on the aircraft and whether you'll be able to get home!!

That's pretty much the deal anywhere, and regardless of if you're crew or not. Staff travel is what it is, and after a while you learn which flights and when are the ones to pick. Let's face it, for those who have been around a while, you're juggling flight options around to get the best chance at J rather than just getting onto the aircraft.

[stowaway]

Dear JB 1888,
I am not surprised by your comments on RB's letter. Those of you who have been in VS for sometime have helped him create an airline where the in flight service is second to none. Having helped him build it to what it is today (and helping him pocket $600 million from Singapore Airlines, he now tells you to "go forth" if you don't like the pathetic pay. No wonder his letter has upset so many people.
I see now that he is trying to bribe people to come into work on the stirke days. That just about sums up his ethics!!
To those who keep mentioning BA terms and conditions. It is not necessary. VS cabin crew (CAA figures) are paid on average £2,000 less per annum than ANY other U.K. airline!

Best of luck to you all next week.!! (Expect to to RB next week crying on T.V. as per usual when he doesn't get his own way!

[JB1888]

Staff travel perks are secondary, they dont cost the company much money(if any), the question at hand is the DISGUSTING! £900 a month for our cabin crew.

Now this is what is at the core of the problem, every year we get a sob story from the company about rising costs, you know what, WE HAVE RISING COSTS ASWELL!.

Try living in london area, renting a flat, paying your council tax bills etc on £900. That is what the problem is, we are not trying to bring the company to its knees the way some ill informed people seem to think, we are trying to get a wage which is we can cover the increased cost of living.


I ask Mr Spanner do you think its a fair wage? And dont bother saying go elsewhere coz thats not what i'm asking.

The prob we have is that our senior management have seriously mismanaged our company for years. For example we should have more fuel efficient aircrafts but someone made the wrong decision with what aircrafts to get and now we are paying the price. This is just one example of wrong decisions being made by the management team, they are at fault for this current situation NOT THE CABIN CREW!

Just a thought we know SRB is wanting to buy back his share in Virgin Atlantic from Singapore, he would probably get it at a discount if these troubles continue for much longer, he wouldn't would he??

[greigok]

I suggest you move somewhere a little cheaper that falls in line with your current salary....whether your being paid enough or not. The main thing here is do not live beyond your means. People living just by gatwick...who have a bus laid on can fully afford accomodation. You are choosing to the live in the 3rd most expensive city in the world.

[vs_lhr]

I suggest you move somewhere a little cheaper that falls in line with your current salary....whether your being paid enough or not. The main thing here is do not live beyond your means. People living just by gatwick...who have a bus laid on can fully afford accomodation. You are choosing to the live in the 3rd most expensive city in the world.

greigok, whilst you won't win many friends on here for saying that, I have to agree with you. Everyone has to live within their means, whether cabin crew or shop assistant; and their are plenty of people earning less than crew who seem to be able to manage.

Perhaps it's because their is an attitude that a glamourous job ought to come with a glamourous social life?

[greigok]

I have friends that earn 800 and no allowance as an extra to bring home if thats what some crew choose to do and they seem to manage. Im not here to make friends just to prove that you need to look at your earnings and then decide what you can afford.

Also unfortunately for them they do not get to travel the world either.

I know everyone works hard...but least you get to chill out down route and spend your allowances in a&f. Im not saying all either..just for the most that i have seen taking loads of shopping home with them.

[kwachon]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/pic32439.jpg

At last a seat for SRB !!!!

[vs_lhr]

At last a seat for SRB !!!!

Childish and cheap shot.

[kwachon]

Yes but funny!

[greigok]

VS LHR let the kids have there fun and don't stoop to there level..with the impending strikes im sure there have more time on there hands to put silly pictures on here...which do not help the cause of what the crew are fighting for.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

With regards to where crew choose to live, remember that we have to be within 2 hours of LHR. For crew that do not have transport, living in London is their only option to make a 7.20am check-in time. Or land back at 10pm etc etc.
Some other airlines on LHR contracts recieve London Weighting. We do not.

[VCCM]

keep up the good work greigok, alienating the crew even further and adding numbers to the strike group by the minute.

You have probably seen people bringing shopping home from Duane Reade too then, full of toothpaste and shampoo etc as its cheaper than the UK, yes sounds very extravegant ! You probably havent see the crew that never leave their rooms either becasue they need every penny of their allowances to pay for their council tax or gas bill !

:mad::mad:

[greigok]

What do you think the crew bus is for...passengers...no it's for the crew who live outside of London..that can get to check-in in time.

With regards to shopping...yeah i have seen them in duane reed...and no not seen many stay in there rooms...unless for a room party where they spend there money on alcohol.

Make sure your wrapped up warm on the pickett line...looks like it's going to be a cold one.

[016FSM]

It's very sad that people on here are trying to say that if we don't earn enough, go elsewhere, or live where we can afford to. When I joined the company I COULD afford to live on my salary, but inflation has gone up every year as has the cost of living and my salary has not. When other professions threaten strike action over terms and conditions, their managers don't say, "if the salary we can afford to pay you doesn't support your lifestyle, then go elsewhere!', it's outragious! They sit around the negotiating table and try to sort something out because most companies value their staff and don't want to loose them! Furthermore most people get a salary rise EVERY year, we DO NOT. We have not only missed a raise on the odd year here or there, we lost out every single time the airline had a tough year due to terrorism, fuel surcharges, expansion of the route network and number of aircraft, each time we heard how tough things had been and thanks for our hard work, but the company couldn't offer us a pay increase at this time!

And this rubbish about us having such a glamorous job that we shouldn't complain about terms and conditions is ridiculous! There are many people in the world that have wonderful jobs which include amazing benefits including travel, company cars etc etc, should it be said that they too should work for peanuts because their jobs are so glamorous or they get good benefits? Yes we get to go to wonderful places, but we work for a living to earn money. After years of travelling, one hotel bedroom looks much like another and yes we do shop because how else should we pass the time of the day from when we arrive to when we leave? We also use gyms, swim and go to the movies or should we be expected to sit in our room and wait until check out saving every penny that we are given? So when eventually we give up flying we can say, oh yes, I travelled the world but I never left my hotel bedroom because I couldn't afford to do anything!

Our job really isn't a bowl of cherries, I've dealt with 2 deaths during a flight, a number of SERIOUS medical emergencies, I've had a bomb scare mid flight and have had to restrain a passenger who was attacking one of the crew! So yes it has it's highlights, but sitting in a galley at 4am in the morning on New Year's day trying to keep my eyes open whilst writing my flight report then suddenly having to go and help an elderly lady who had collapsed only to find that she has just had a stroke, reminds me that our job really isn't always that glamorous!! You should try consoling the family of someone who has had a stroke during a flight sometime whilst making sure that the person in question is offered the very best medical attention possible until we land!!

[greigok]

My argument is..if office staff that I know can afford to live on 800..which is not in london but is in the southeast...they do not complain.

Have a gd new year....

[016FSM]

Exactly, sitting in an office with a lunch break and regular coffee breaks pushing a pen or doing whatever it is they're trained to do can really be compared to working on board an aircraft and hence salaries should be equal! And you will not find that many people in their 30's and above in any decent office job earning £800 a month, that I can guarantee you, my Sister works for an employment agency in London and I know what salaries office staff with a 'decent' job in a 'decent' company earn!

Furtherore, you don't hear Midland crew, or Britannia, or First Choice or Easy Jet or Monarch or United complaining about their salaries and you know why? Because they are paid decent money and are well looked after. Not as much as BA, but the money is pretty good! Length of service is well rewarded because they recognise the importance of having a mixed age group working for them as well as experience, something Virgin has no interest in at all!

O and by the way, we don't receive any overtime for working NYE or NY day and don't recive any days off in lieu either. Are we the only company in the world who doesn't get paid extra for working bank holidays? And I hasten to add, our office staff DO get paid overtime if they have to work week-end's or bank holidays!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Im sure they do complain on £800 pm, either that or they live with their parents in the SE (not London)!!!!! Besides who in the office earns that? I've worked in many dept and never come accross anyone who earns that ( except school leavers.)

Back to the bus........
The bus does NOT guarantee arrival on time at work. It runs to its own timetable and if you are delayed, then there is no bus. If you are called out and one has just left, then its a late form for you. Your contract says "2 hrs from LHR" there is no mention of a bus to bail you out. This perk still remains because we fly out of both airports and are only allowed to park at one; not to mention that us old timers had our contracts switched from LGW to LHR many moons ago.

[016FSM]

Exactly, I remember that, we were moved from LGW to LHR base, LHR being in London, yet we do not receive London weighting!!

[greigok]

London is the south east im afraid!

You need to stop arguing on here and express your points to your union instead of arguing with everyone that does not agree with you. Also stop comparing yourselves to other lines. VS only does long haul and all the others do combined.

Also as per previous threads...which you should read i said i know how hard you work and that you deserve more money. Also no they do not live at home with there parents...they are temoing...that does not amke any difference.

But again read previous posts and you can see that i support the fact you need your wages increased.

[vs_lhr]

It's very sad that people on here are trying to say that if we don't earn enough, go elsewhere, or live where we can afford to. When I joined the company I COULD afford to live on my salary, but inflation has gone up every year as has the cost of living and my salary has not.

I think yours is more the exception rather than the rule, as you have been with the company for decades rather than just a few years. Your conditions really have gone on a downward slide; whereas I have issue with those currently burning Virgin flags who have only been in the job a couple of years and the conditions are not much different to those they originally signed up to.

And this rubbish about us having such a glamorous job that we shouldn't complain about terms and conditions is ridiculous! There are many people in the world that have wonderful jobs which include amazing benefits including travel, company cars etc etc, should it be said that they too should work for peanuts because their jobs are so glamorous or they get good benefits?

The fabulous jobs out there that are well paid and have excellent benefits are rare, and normally reserved for the talented few who get (by luck or judgement) to the top of their game. The reality is that the majority of us get by, wondering why there is so much month left at the end of the money. It's pointless getting envious over what someone else has; therein madness lies.

Our job really isn't a bowl of cherries, I've dealt with 2 deaths during a flight, a number of SERIOUS medical emergencies, I've had a bomb scare mid flight and have had to restrain a passenger who was attacking one of the crew!

I don't think anyone disputes that your job can be tough, and as crew you have to cope with a lot of different tasks; but remember that's the job as written on the job description. As I've said before, the reason the pay is low is because the job is in high demand. Every company pays as little as they can get away with, and for crew, that's surprisingly little.

Exactly, sitting in an office with a lunch break and regular coffee breaks pushing a pen or doing whatever it is they're trained to do can really be compared to working on board an aircraft and hence salaries should be equal!

I'm afraid this is slightly offensive. Belittling the work of others just because you don't understand their job isn't fair. I have worked in office environments were there is tremendous pressure on staff - having to deal with stuff that just makes you cry. The sort of job that you only do because it pays your bills (barely), and offers none of the perks of travel, or free time down route, or even a hint of excitement. Do you enjoy being cabin crew? If you say yes (and I suspect you do), then that is a huge benefit over the millions who have depressingly mundane work, commuting daily in the rush hour on overpriced, overpacked sweaty trains to grey offices where their managers have been promoted one level beyond their ability and have zero people skills. Please don't picture all office staff as happy smily people sitting around drinking coffee and doing their nails as though it was a scene from Working Girl.

[BostonBill]

Sign-it-to-your-room... just a point of order :)

"Old Timers" were given the option of changing their base to LHR or not. 2 cabin crew members remained based at LGW, everyone else went to LHR so they didn't have to be rostered solely on the "holiday routes" which didn't have trip pay.

But back then, the dollar rate was nowhere near 2:1 and most trips paid a decent amount.

[pokergirl]

After ten years service, giving 150 % every time, i am devasted by SRB s comments of "go elsewhere". I have never felt so deflated and undervalued by the company.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

VS LHR:
I know that you are trying to keep the peace and you are doing a good job of it so far, but now perhaps you get the picture on how we feel daily? 016 painted an unfair but generalised picture of office staff; since this thread began cc have had mud slung at them from all directions, with posters saying our job is easy, takes no training and any old school leaver could do it! Not nice to hear I'm sure you will agree, but we're cabin crew so guess what? we put up with it!

BostonBill: We all moved contracts yes, because that is where we thought the money was! Only 1 ccm left now operating from LGW, and I'm sure with those Caribbeans she is having the last laugh!:D

[BostonBill]

pokergirl, that's not what he said.

The way that I see it, his remarks are aimed at those who want to see a pay rise that is not sustainable by the Company. If you are adamant that you want more than is able to be offered in order to support your lifestyle, then you must look elsewhere.

So really, it depends whether you believe that the Company is offering all that it can afford to or not. If you believe them and you need more, then you have no alternative but to go elsewhere in order to get it.

[nicecsd]

The sad truth is that unfortunately this job (cabin crew) is steadily becoming a mediocre nearly low paid job in comparison to the past when it was regarded as an elitist, glamorous way of life and way to earn a decent living.
The different factors that have contributed to the demise of this profession is mainly the easy-jets of this world and partly Vs itself that without lower headcounts and inferior Terms & Conditions to its peers wouldn t have been able to successfully compete with just allegedly superior service.
We can fight as much as we want but unfortunately the reality is that this is the way the airline industry is going and no temporary strike will ever reverse this trend.

[back2front]

The thing is nicecsd is that easyjet crew clear approx £1600. Thats a good £400-500 more than Virgin crew and at the end of the day they can only work a max of 900 hours too. Easyjet might be low cost but they still pay their crew a decent wage.

[nicecsd]

I am sorry to have commented on your struggle, mine was a generalised reality check of the industry in general, personally I think you should earn as much as any BA cabin crew as you do a similar brilliant job on board with considerable inferior Terms and Conditions i.e. pension, rest, days off after trips etc etc and I sincerely wish you all the luck in your struggle/fight if it will ever go ahead.

[SpannersatVS]

"I ask Mr Spanner do you think its a fair wage? And dont bother saying go elsewhere coz thats not what i'm asking."

No JB it's far from a fair wage, what i was asking was can i volunteer to work as CC for a couple of days & get the 150 quid strike busting pay??? Obviously would hope 5 CC did the strike bit on my flight so i could get another 260 quid!!! On the subject of volunteers, if LM's phone has been going mad with CC offering their services why pay this large amount!!! Contingency plan my ar$e, panic stations more like!!!!!

What goes around comes around, me & my mates left BA to join VS & got a pay rise, but SRB wants you all to leave because he doesn't want to pay as much as BA!!!! Glad i'm on the spanners & not the brewers:bored:

[016FSM]

My apologies, I didn't mean to offend ANYONE who works in an office, I was not implying that they have the life of 'riley' who ever he may be!! But my point was that they have more reasonable hours on the whole, they have access to breaks when they really need one and they can get away for a few minutes when things really get tough and most of them are paid accordingly for the job that they do, whatever it may be! They can even go to the toilet when they need to! If I need to go to the toilet around breakfast time or after a meal service, it's hard luck, I have to queue along with the rest of the passengers as we don't even have a toilet for the crew to use!


"On the subject of volunteers, if LM's phone has been going mad with CC offering their services why pay this large amount!!! Contingency plan my ar$e, panic stations more like!!!!!"

This point is very very true!! They keep telling us how much support they have been getting by those who want to help during the strike and how many volunteers have come forward, yet why the offer of money? Virgin hate giving more than they really have to so I can only presume, they are starting to getting a little bit nervous, after all, they have said they will only be cancelling 3 flights per day!! That's Virgin's "we can manage without you" response and RB confirmed it!!

[interpreter]

I keep hearing about differences of pay scales and London Weighting etc but some contributors who are clearly VCC do not appear to know these. Has Unite given EVERY member an EXACT line by line breakdown of the differences between their staff at Virgin and other airlines operating similar routes. If not, why not? If the answer is yes then they surely have not been able to present it in a way that EVERYBODY understands. Come on UNITE put the facts and figures before everybody on VCC staff - member or non-member. Why not also give it to the press? They don't all gasp for Virgin advertising and freelance journalists would welcome hard facts they could quote. There are plenty who would be happy to knock SRB off his pedestal temporarily. BUT Unite your job is to secure satisfactory terms and conditions WITHOUT resorting to strike action so in a sense you have failed every one of your members. Can you reply with a detailed breakdown? I am not an employee of any airline, nor a journalist.

[Virgin89]

016FSM, I am also a 016FSM and have been here as long as you, if not longer.

I would like to point out a couple of things, having been here 20 years myself and knowing many people in the office.

The office staff don't get any overtime at all. You did get extra allowances for working Xmas and also the offer to take someone away with you, confirmed for £100 and most probably in J.

The flight I operated over Xmas, which was great, all the companions were sitting in U/C both ways and everyone went to the Clubhouse prior to the flight both ways, not a bad perk.

I am just trying to point out that for the amount of times that I come to work each month (4-5) I don't think I'm paid that badly. £2300 per year, £6000 in allownaces, £2000+ in trip pay and commisson.

I know I have to use my allowances to live on while I'm away, but I have to take all the above into account when I am looking at an overall package that I can earn per year, and it's currently stands at about £31,500. I also need to take into account the felxibility that we have at crew at VS.

If I was working in the office then I'd be coming to work each day, 5 times a week, buying lunch etc each day. I don't have to do that.

I hear lots of people moaning about having one request per month. Talk to your friends at other airlines and see how many they get. BA hardly get any.

Is it the best in the world? No it isn't. Do I want more money? Hell yes. Will I work during the stirke? Yes I will. I can't afford not to be earning money and I can't afford to see VS go into another 9/11 situation where they have to downsize to pay for the stirkes.

I've been here before and want to move on from this. I want us to go into the next negs with a better, stronger union. One that is totally committed to working together and one that listens and communicates with us.

Anyway Happy New Year to you all

[greigok]

Well Done Virgin89 for a fantastic post and perhaps people will read that and realise a few things.

My guess is they will find everything about that negavtive and wrong.

Well done for putting on a constructive post without having to resort to mud slinging towards a company and SRB that have given crew a job in the first place.

I also agree you do deserve more money and that a strike is not the best way foward...Virgin will loose money..and there will be no pay rise as they will have to get out of the mess that the crew has put the company in.

Again yes you do deserve more money!!
:D

[016FSM]

Hey Virgin89, I hear what you're saying! We are all highlighting the negative aspects of working for VS and of course there are some positive ones as well. I have also flown many times in J and now like you, have unlimited upgrades whenever I fly.

However, we're probably both around the same age, 30 ish, :eek: (if only!!) and after all the years with the company, we should be paid in line with other airlines' number 1's/FSM's, NOT counting BA as they are in a league of their own.

I don't count allowances cos they are to spend down route, they are subsidency allowances supplied to cover the cost of food drink and passing the time of day whilst away and I spend them as such, also changing dollars into £'s at the current exchange rate is a waste of time, you lose too much. So we come home with around £1500 per month, that's not even double of that of a junior flt attendant who has been here no time at all let alone over 20 years. And in case you weren't aware, our salary has not even trebled in 21 years of employment with the company. Can you be proud of that because I can't!

At the end of the day, it's the money that gets paid into my bank account that pays my mortgage, bills, council tax, shopping bills and feeds my kids! All on £1500 per month! If I could get another job to supplement my salary, I would, but with 2 or 3 days off between flights if I worked on those, my kids wouldn't know who I was!!

[016FSM]

PS! May I just also add, that I have said over and over again, that I will not be striking as I don't beleive it will benefit us in anyway!! I think those who strike will be discreetly singled out by the company and will spend the rest of their days doing hard labour and being carefully watched whilst the company waits for them to slip up.

I DO enjoy my job and don't want the company to get into the mess it was in after 9/11. It would be very difficult for me to leave and find a job elsewhere now after all these years so I HAVE to like it or lump it! However, the company have to know that they cannot continue to pay a wage which is significantly lower than the vast majority of other UK based airlines EXCLUDING BA!!

Happy New Year!! Let it be a prosperous and healthy one for us all!!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

The office staff don't get any overtime at all.

Incorrect. They do. Its a fact.

[s3483]

"The people who make up Virgin Atlantic make Virgin Atlantic" quote from SRB on VAA website. Funny because thats not the impression I got with his latest statement!

[vs_lhr]

VS LHR:
I know that you are trying to keep the peace and you are doing a good job of it so far, but now perhaps you get the picture on how we feel daily? 016 painted an unfair but generalised picture of office staff; since this thread began cc have had mud slung at them from all directions, with posters saying our job is easy, takes no training and any old school leaver could do it! Not nice to hear I'm sure you will agree, but we're cabin crew so guess what? we put up with it!

Yes, I would agree that the majority of punters don't really have much of a perception of what crew do beyond serve drinks. That dreadful YouTube video posted on here earlier is a classic example. However, you've also got to appreciate that some crew think they're in a unique position having a tough job. That, unfortunately, doesn't win many friends if the person you're saying that to has their hand down a toilet 8 hours a day, or rips the gizzards out of chickens for a living. I think we all need to keep it in perspective here. Emergencies onboard are (thankfully) not everyday occurrences; travelling the world is still a luxury for most and the good passengers, for the most part, outweigh the bad ones.

I look at the CAA figures, and as far as I can tell, VS crew are a couple of thousand behind the rest of the pack (excluding BA, who for various reasons have rather a stonking deal, and to be honest, if I had an inclination to fly, that's were my application would be going!); but VS aren't the worse off. Most notably, the second largest airline out of Heathrow, bmi, is behind Virgin paying an average of £12.9K to its crew. I have to say, bmi is a closer match to Virgin than the My Travels, Thomsonfly or Monarchs being a full service, scheduled operator out of mainline airports. I'm not sure why the charters pay a couple of grand more, although my guess would be that's what they need to pay to attract enough staff? Probably. Regardless of your personal thoughts of SRB and the airline during this dispute, there is more 'cache' in saying you're Virgin Atlantic crew rather than My Travel (no offence to My Travel crew!).

So is this why Virgin (and bmi for that matter) can get away with paying so little? Is it also the reason why attempts to push beyond 4.8% have met with so much resistance?

[coolhandlu]

I work in The Office. I do not get overtime. Some people I know do. It depends on what job you are doing and what department you work in.

[rubyrocks118]

A very close relative of mine works in the office, she gets no overtime and nearly everyweek works over her 40hrs per wk, she has to pay for her lunch and coffee/snack breaks and she is so under pressure at times that the only place she could go was the toilets to take a 5min chill.

Before starting at virgin i worked in office of 10yrs and belive you me i work more than my contracted hrs and NEVER got any overtime, we got timo off in Lieu which was quite ridiculous becase there was never any time to take it. and in the summer months i would be working from 7am til 8 maybe 9 in the evening to meet the requirments of my job. I when i work another office job we started 8.30 til 6 mon - fri, half hr for lunch no inbetween breaks, we also had to work 2 saturdays a month now work that out thats about 198hrs a month, we do roughly 80 - 100 per month, for an average office job times by 12 and thats 2376hrs a yr. We only do 900hrs.

In my opinion since i started with virgin i think the job is a peice of cake it's not hard at all i think it is one of easiest jobs i have done, and i just get on with it. it is sometimes dissapointing tho when we just don't have the tools to delivers the goods on some occassions. My typical day before starting at virgin was -Mon - thurs up 0600, work at 0730 - finish at 1830 may 1900 go home then bed. Friday - up 0600, work 0730 - finish 1800, then drive to my 2nd job start 1930 and finish at 0300, get home at 0400 and bed. i also work on saturday from 6pm til 3am at my second job, i did this for 7yrs.

Don't get me wrong cc can be difficult at times but, come on we have a good job, get to go to places every week, whilst people are in offices doing their 9-5 we are on a beach, or shopping or at a gym or just chilling out. I couldn't ask for anymore, whenever i come back from trips and i'm on the underground of train travelling back to central London i just look the commuters faces and see how miserable they all look and thats how i was when i was in office.

have i waffled on too long :O:O:O

[Virginfun]

Virgin89, great post, I like what I hear from you.

016FSM, you need to plan your time more wisely you know when breakfast starts and when the meal service ends so go to the toilet when its not rush hour!

When I fly with you will I find you sat at R1 or in your office doing your 'paperwork'

The office staff dont get to work then work for 3 hours then go and lie down in crew rest for upto 4hours!! They work from 9 to 530 if not longer and have a lunch break of one hour.

Im sure on your east coast flights you always give breaks when you can and I bet you always split the breaks into 2 instead of 3 to offer the longest break possible!!!

[sinala1]

Folks there is no point waffling on about the working conditions of office based workers - its like comparing apples with oranges. Office based work doesnt include half the tasks or responsibilities that Cabin Crew are faced with - thats not to in any way undermine the hard work that office based workers often have to undertake, but its just so totally different from flying that comparing other jobs with flying really is a waste of everyones time.

Cabin Crew is a great job - no one here is denying that, and there are certainly lots of brilliant aspects/perks - but at the end of the day, perks don't pay the bills. Sure 2 days in SFO or a couple of nights in Wan Chai are great fun, but they don't pay the bills at the end of the day, unless you Delsey Dine your way around the world - but then that will result in depression, health deteriorating, not enjoying layovers etc.

I agree with the sentiments being posted here by most - a Length of Service based increase/scale for CSS and FSM's, and the rest of the increase spread 50% to wages and 50% to trip pay. That way crew have higher numbers to show the bank as far as Salary goes, and the increased trip pay will help reduce sickness.

Oh and for the record, I no longer work for VS - but still have a lot of passion for that company :ok:

[Digitalis]

Sadly, as is often the case during labour disputes, people have begun taking swipes at each other rather than at the cause of the problems.

The cause, in this case, is not the poor pay at Virgin (though that is indisputable), but the appallingly badly handled negotiations intended to improve that pay. Both the Union and the Company can hang their heads in shame for so poorly representing the Cabin Crew's interests, and for having totally failed to both understand and address the needs and wants of the CC. The root cause of the discontent and the impasse we find ourselves in now is lack of communication. Communication between Company and Crew, Company and Union and Union and Crew. The communication vacuum is filled, inevitably, by rumour, speculation and conjecture.

The greatest shame is that, because no-one really understood or knew what happened during the negotiations, a minority of CC rejected a deal that would have paid an increase of between 8.5% and 10.5% from April this year compared to what you are getting now, plus backpay of between 4.9% and 5.5% of salary for the period April 2007 to date. Yes, there were one or two conditions attached, but those numbers represented a very considerable increase, and one which no workers in any other field (let alone CC) are likely to achieve in 2008.

The Union has no plan or stated aim for these strikes. It simply wants to put pressure on the Company, but has no clear idea of what that pressure is intended to achieve. You may note the contrast with the BAA dispute, which was about very specific items, and in which avenues of communication were left open.

For the majority of you that either didn't vote, or voted against this strike (and the majority who didn't vote, or voted for the payrise), the solution is in your hands. It shouldn't be, but it is: call the Union. Tell them to get back to the table, in whatever way they can. Call the Company too, if you can, and say the smae thing. Tell them how you feel, and that you understand that communication is the only way a solution will be found. Striking aimlessly is no different to silently sulking after an argument, and will achieve nothing except more bad feeling.

Talking, not fighting, is the only way ahead.

[016FSM]

Virginfun you really need to understand that you can't tar everyone with the same brush! I don't know what flights you've been doing but on my flights, you'll NEVER work 3 hours and then go and lie down for up to 4 in the crew rest, believe me!

Furthermore, I allocate breaks as per company procedure which is in 3 when it's a requirement. My concern is not the maximum amount of rest that I can give to the crew, but the quality of the service in the cabin and the safety of all onboard. If you're flying with people who's main concern is the maximum amount of time they can give to the crew to rest, then that's a very sad thought. My main concern is the passengers, I will always do my best to give the crew a break, but it certainly doesn't take precidence over the service we should be offering! Having said that, I have argued on here that the company should make proper provisions for crew rest, by insisting that we do it in 3, they have made it very dificult for us to arrange a decent amount of rest on some flights and that I feel is very unfair.

And with regard to paperwork, on average my paperwork takes me 40 minutes, the rest of the time I'm working in the cabin like everyone else, in the back, middle and front! I take a great deal of pride in my job and feel that I do it to the best of my capability. There is NOBODY on that aircraft who works any harder than me, there are many who work AS hard though and that's is why I feel that those who give 100% deserve to be paid decently.

I hear many people on here saying they give 100% to Virgin and they love their jobs, but if the main concern of so many crew and FSM's is the maximum amount of rest that the crew can get on a flight, then I certainly wouldn't say that either are doing such a good job! And by the way, if you go on a break that has been split into 2, you are as guilty as the FSM who arranged the breaks of breaching company procedure and if you as a cabin crew member are reported for taking the break, you will face the same disciplinary action as the FSM in question. Remember you never know who is watching you on the aircraft and you are responsible for you own actions. After this strike action if it goes ahead, the company will be looking very carefully to get rid of a few 'trouble makers' and if company procedures are not followed to the letter, do you think you won't be 'carrying the can' for your actions?

Next time you're on a flight and breaks in 2 are arranged, if you take so much pride in your job and feel you do it well, tell the FSM that they should be done in 3 as per company procedure, you may not be popular but you may just save your job if there's someone on that flight watching what the crew are doing!!

[Virgin89]

Hey, I hear that one of the more longer serving members of our union has resigned from the union as of today.

This may be GFM but the source I heard it from was pretty good. Interesting. Wonder who it is? Any clues

What a mess. Crew that are divided and don't know what to do, followed by union members that are leaving the union as clearly they are as divided as we are.

x

[red_eye_rat]

Open questions to all. What deal is being looked for? And please a little more detail than 'fair', 'just', 'deserved' etc. Lets hear about facts and figures. Reading the posts here and elsewhere on the web give a very confused message.

[016FSM]

Here's an interesting post I found on cabincrew.com:



Do not know how true this is but have been told by another crewmember that if a sufficient amount of people email the union reps and state that they would be happy with the last offer the union can approach the company to ask for it to be put back on the table and overt the strikes. sounds a bit too good to be true but maybe worth a shot if any of you feel that strongly? This is my first post, thought i could reach the most amount of people on here!! The person on my flight was saying that they have to receive it by the eve of the 3rd to meet them before any action takes place. Guess we'll see. However you feel about this, just thought you never know!

[Digitalis]

Open questions to all. What deal is being looked for? And please a little more detail than 'fair', 'just', 'deserved' etc. Lets hear about facts and figures. Reading the posts here and elsewhere on the web give a very confused message.

Unfortunately you won't get an answer to this, because there are no specific demands from the Union to the Company. All they're after is something 'better'. As they can't define what 'better' means, who knows exactly what they would settle for? Remember, they told the members that they'd already got the best deal they could get when they 'strongly recommended' the last offer. As you say, it's a mess!

016FSM Whether anyone has officially said this or not, if sufficient crew email the Union then they will have to take notice. At the very least it may prompt them to re-enter discussions with the Company, which must be a good thing. It's got to be worth a try.

[YONGE]

From a BA dolly..

Best of luck to all at Virgin. Stand up for what you believe you are worth, don't be bullied into submission. Don't prostitute yourselves for sweetners to cross the picket line-you devalue yourselves and those who are fighting for a better future. Yes, you knew what salary you would be paid when you signed up but that does not mean that you can't negotiate a pay rise that is a realistic reflexion of the work that you do, the service you deliver and the repeat business that you bring to Branson. :ok:

[wapses]

Look, you guys knew what the pay was when you joined Virgin. If you didn't like the salary, why take the job? Let's be honest, you took the job (and no doubt were delighted to be offered it) because you wanted to work for Virgin and undoubtedly many of you (particularly of the female persuasion) because you hoped to meet Richard .... be honest now.

And if you feel the pay increases have not been sufficient then you have an option. LEAVE!

Striking is a thing of the past ... flat hats, miners, union leaders from up north ... this is 2008, wake up!

[glamourgirl!]

well i certianly didnt apply to work as crew to "meet richard." Ha ha get real,

G.G

(big up the italian stallian and his princess!)

[dorisday]

Wapses, have been an avid follower of this thread and you have managed to turn me into a poster :(

Joining VAA to meet RB??!!!!:confused::=

As for your run of the mill comments in the "you knew what the salary was..." vain, may I just reply that yes indeed I did know what the salary was TWELVE years ago when I joined, much like an office junior does, however as an on board "manager" I would expect to be payed like one, much like an office junior who climbs the ranks to office manager!!:ugh:

Mind you, doesn't look like anyone will take your post seriously, even GG laughing!! :ok:

[virgin dolly]

So what are the Company offering me and what could my first "strike day" be like if I come to work,

I may get in my pocket if I turn up for work on a strike day with
up to 4 crew down a extra £210 once tax and Ni is taken out...!

So what will my day be like........?

A possible bad nights sleep the night before wondering what tomorrow brings ? Do even the company Know.....?
Will I have tension in my shoulders as I put on my uniform ?
Catching the bus and seeing other virgin crew and looking into there faces..? What will they be thinking and will they be frighten just like me..?
What will crew check in be like..........?
What will the breifing be like..............?
Will the flight be crew down....How many.. Flights are full......?Could the flight be delayed or even cancelled..?
Who will I be working with and what dept are they from...?

Just thinking about it sends shivers up my spine, So for me this already sounds like a day from hell and not what normally I would look forward to. This will be a sad day full of stress and thats just the start of it..... got to face my passengers now.....?


I'm staying at home.........! :(

[Virgin89]

Well it 's another day nearer to that day where we can all decide to come to work or go on the various picket lines that will form around LHR/LGW/MAN.

Virgin Dolly, you say a lot of what people are thinking. It will be daunting to come to work, but remember, any crew that you look at, work with, FSM's in the briefing and anyone that you come into contact with amongst the work place are there because they want to be and they don't want the damage to the company that this stirke will bring.

I predict that anyone working will have a nice day/flight and feel that they are sticking together, the same as people striking will feel the same.

They are also people that want more money and hope for an end to this strike/mess that we are in.

I for one as an FSM will make my briefing as normal, upbeat and fun as it always is. I also know that people will pull together and make this a good day.

I am a person (just in their 40's 016FSM) who respects anyone who makes a decision that they feel is correct. I won't damm someone that strikes, someone that stands on the picket line or someone that may want to call me a scab or through an egg at me (beware I've got muscles and will fight back lol).

What I am trying to say is that I am doing what I feel is the right thing to do on the 9/10th and 16/17th. For me that is going to work and supporting a company that I love working for.

I know that striking will only decrease any pay offer now and in the future that we may get and anyone on here who thinks that this '11th' hour deal is going to come need to think again.

Incentives to fly, cancelling flights on all the strike days, putting up notices on the VS website, re-booking paxs etc is not something a company does who are going to sort this out before the stirke date. This is something that a company does who are going to see this through (whatever the damage) and make drastic changes at the end of it, whenever that will be.

They need to get someone in from the outside who will dicate what will happen. An arbitrator will be the one to end this. How sad that they couldn't do this on their own, however it's not just the management to blame, it's our union. A union who has never asked me what I want, what % payrise I want and what I think is a good offer. Also a union who have never communicated to me over the past few weeks and have had no representation in the crew rooms at all.

I even heard that some of them were trying to swap their flights for days off on the affected days so they don't have to strike, how's that for support.

Whatever you deceide to do good luck to you. I won't ask you a harder question in my briefing for supporting a stirke. What I ask of crew wanting to stirke is you also don't hassle people who are coming to work. We are all trying to do what we think is right, whatever that may be.

People coming to work, don't worry. Picket lines not at the crew rooms and I'm sure there will be support in getting people to work.

People on the line, good luck to you. If that's what you think is right then you are doing the right thing. As we all are.

Take care
x

[vs_lhr]

So what are the Company offering me and what could my first "strike day" be like if I come to work,

I may get in my pocket if I turn up for work on a strike day with
up to 4 crew down a extra £210 once tax and Ni is taken out...!

So what will my day be like........?

A possible bad nights sleep the night before wondering what tomorrow brings ? Do even the company Know.....?
Will I have tension in my shoulders as I put on my uniform ?
Catching the bus and seeing other virgin crew and looking into there faces..? What will they be thinking and will they be frighten just like me..?
What will crew check in be like..........?
What will the breifing be like..............?
Will the flight be crew down....How many.. Flights are full......?Could the flight be delayed or even cancelled..?
Who will I be working with and what dept are they from...?

Just thinking about it sends shivers up my spine, So for me this already sounds like a day from hell and not what normally I would look forward to. This will be a sad day full of stress and thats just the start of it..... got to face my passengers now.....?

I'm staying at home.........!

Dolly,

As Virgin89 has said, the people who will be joining you on the flight will be people for whatever reason, want to be there. If you decide to work on a strike day, I suspect the camaraderie onboard will be stronger than usual. It won't be a normal work day, but you will have the support of a team who are 'all in it together'.

Do not worry that you'll be staring into the eyeballs of strikers from the crew bus; Virgin will ensure you anonymity is preserved. And if the flight is crew down, then you'll benefit from additional payments to compensate you for the extra effort you'll be putting in.

Stay at home only if you want to strike; not as a reason to avoid it. Remember, by staying away from work, Virgin will assume you are a striker.

[Virginfun]

True

I think on the days that the strike happen there will be a great atmosphere onboard, you will be working with a team who all enjoy there jobs and want to get on with something they enjoy.

As soon as the aircraft doors are closed and your on your way you can forget about whats happening on the ground, in fact you can wave to your colleagues at Hatton Cross, because they will be the losers!

They will have lost alot of pay thats for sure and you will be the one right fully earning it.

If you wanna go to work then go, once you have checked in it wont be that bad onboard.

Your customers will be so happy that your getting them to there destination.

[016FSM]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I think that was put very nicely Virgin89 and made a lot of sense! By the way, you ARE older than me ;) If you're in your 40's, i've just reached the BIG 4 0!!
I too will be flying on the 9th 10th and will make sure that the crew with whom I'm flying, are given all the support that they need to do their jobs as well as they always do. I feel it's the right choice for ME and I have thought about it very carefully and have spent many hours reading this chat room and cabincrew.com in order to try to make the right decision. I've made it and I feel it's the right one. The company HAVE helped me in times when I really needed help with one thing or another over the years, they have always treated me well and I've had a very happy career flying for Virgin. I'm always skint and my kids shop in Oxfam (yeah right....) but what can I do :O

I still believe that we should be paid like managers and have a better wage and that our terms and conditions need to be addressed, but I don't think striking is the answer. RB's comments are shameful, they may apply to those who have been in the company only a couple of years, but as Doris Day quite rightly said, when you climb the ladder in a company, you deserve to be paid accordingly.

Having said that, I can't turn my back on a company who have looked after me pretty well for 21 years of my life!!