The Virgin Strike Thread II [Archive] - Page 2

Jcdcon

2nd Jan 2008, 22:33

I have resisted posting for a while, mainly because this is a very emotive issue, and the passion we all feel regarding our decisions can lead to things becoming a tad argumentative.

However as a CSS I will be working over the strike days, and have volunteered to help out where I can. I don't like the tone of SRB's letter but perhaps it was the kick we all needed. For far too long we have been told by Cabin Crew Management how fantastic we are - look at any copy of PTT, or correspondance from LM (who I happen to think has done quite a good job since she has been here - regardless of what you think of her, speak to her and she is very crew friendly - but her resources are not limitless). All of them contain some element of how great we are. We only need to look at x-plane or GAP results and in general we are on a downward spiral - look at the service brief sheets - on most routes we are below target. I am not necessarily saying that we are doing a bad job, far from it, but after years of being told how great we are, and that we are the reason people fly Virgin, perhaps a short sharp shock from SRB is called for. I have to say that some of the comments posted on here augment what many of our passengers believe - that they are an inconvenience to the crew.

016FSM - when you first starting posting on here I was a little dismayed at your thought process, but I think it shows real courage to look at things from both sides and make an INFORMED decision. I am really glad that you can see the bigger picture - no pay deal, regardless of company or industry, should be about a quick fix.

Virgin89 - as always a pleasure to read your balanced views, and its good to see someone who can reason maturely about the impending strike without mudslinging.

Monkeybusiness 2 - your post really saddens me, and it is that immature, selfish and misinformed attitude which has resulted in us being at this stage in industrial action. I am your colleague - I respect your right to strike, please do not hurl names around such as "scab" - it is disrespectful and achieves very little.

However as a last point, I would like to say that I am in no way interested in participating in said action. If there was a ballot to demand the resignation of the Union Reps and BB, then I know what I would be voting for. No-one can deny that the company met the requests of the Union - its just a shame that the Union had no knowledge of what the Crew actually wanted, and if I was a Rep, on a professional basis, as well as a personal basis, I would be mortified.

All of the above pales into insignificance when I think of the reasons I was employed - its my job to ensure that I maintain standards ensuring repeat business and that is what I intend to do. I am one of the very few who is actually very happy with my salary and conditions.

Good luck with whatever decisions you all make, but lets not bring this down to an even more base level.

vs_lhr

2nd Jan 2008, 22:41

if it's so futile, why do you disagree and reply to every post that advocates the action VS_LHR ?

I have always believed that strikes achieve nothing, and the way this has progressed is even more flawed than any normal industrial dispute. Even if there was large support for the strike, in a service industry with strong competition, disruption like this does enormous damage to the business - that's a downturn in revenue that leads to savage cutbacks in order to keep the company afloat. And with the figures VS is working with, it's a very fine line between profit and loss.

The flip side to this is that not only are we going to have the impact of declining business (and already have lost some key corporate accounts because of the threat of the strike during December), but because of the way the union has handled the negotiations, we've got to a strike without anyone asking what deal would actually be accepted. It's total lunacy.

I post a lot because I feel quite passionately about it. I notice you're not jumping down Scooby's throat who has been my worthy counterpart on the pro-strike team for longer than I've even been registered here.

VCCM

2nd Jan 2008, 22:48

magicE

2nd Jan 2008, 22:50

Strange question but does anyone know If BB has been working solely for the CC at Virgin these past few weeks? I just found on the internet that he was involved in the BAA planned strikes aswell, strange that the dates aligned to cause most disruption dont you think.

As a side note it also had a Mobile Number for him. Any one need to give a call???

Jcdcon

2nd Jan 2008, 22:50

They are not "slashing" our packages - that is emotive and not true - they may not be moving in the way that the majority want, but as far as I can tell my package has not reduced.

I always thought Scooby was a man??????

Raffles

2nd Jan 2008, 22:52

I for one find this all so fascinating, as a driver (that’s your speak!) I can’t understand why you don’t all stick together? I know things are tough for you all but why can’t you just stick together and fight for a fair wage that you all deserve? You know that when “the drivers” pay was on the table 98% of them disagreed at the first ballot, but stayed together and reached a settlement that they agreed on! Do you know that it’s tied into flying hours and VS “drivers” are "up there with the competition”. As an example an F/O on an LAX gets around £300, and I believe cabin crew only get £25-42!!! That’s what team work can achieve!!! You know that once the cabin crew fight is over it’s the “drivers” turn, and once again they will get as much as they can from the company!!! As for anyone who has been with the company for a long time, you should know better than anyone of your worth!!!! Hold fast and bide your time until nearer the strike date, and then make your decision. I know that whatever happens, most respected “drivers” will not take an aircraft unless the regulated number of qualified cabin crew are on board. Having flown with lots of you I DO THINK THAT YOU DESERVE MORE MONEY. You are what makes the airline and you make people want to come back again and again!!! Good luck and remember YOU ARE WORTH MORE!!!!!!!!

vs_lhr

2nd Jan 2008, 22:56

But please tell me what is to stop the company walking all over us and slashing our packages (that's your package too) moving forward if the union loses its footing (what it has left of it) ?

Well, the harsh reality is there is nothing to stop them. The fight is lost; the management have made it very clear there is no more on offer.

What happens next? Get rid of the union that caused the problem and get a new one that can not only negotiate a better deal, but also communicate with the membership to understand exactly what that deal should be.

The next negotiation comes up in April, so haste is required.

tinkerbelle

2nd Jan 2008, 22:58

This is now like that final scene in Carry On At Your Convenience. The strike is futile - just get back to the job (presumably you enjoy) and learn from the mistakes this time round. Yes, you lost out on the 4.8%, but that was an error of your own making because some people where under the impression there was more money in the pot without doing the maths.

a lot of 3rd party there vs_lhr, aren't we in this together, did you not lose out on 4.8% too ?

dorisday

2nd Jan 2008, 23:03

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

The support is welcome Raffles:ok:

VCCM

2nd Jan 2008, 23:04

They are not "slashing" our packages - that is emotive and not true - they may not be moving in the way that the majority want, but as far as I can tell my package has not reduced.

JDCON I fully agree, but not sticking to our guns we are giving them carte blanche to do exactly just that as vs_lhr has just said AND that's from someone that is not prepared to strike but recognises we are all in for the ultimate rogering if we dont stand strong.

016FSM

2nd Jan 2008, 23:14

Hey VCCM, how long you been flying for Virgin? I've been here over 21 years and have seen the company go through some pretty bad times!! Many of my friends took redundancy after 9/11 and it was thanks to them that many of us, including me, kept their jobs. And why the redundancies? Because the airline was up you know what creek because there were no passengers!!

After BA went on strike, they kept their passengers because they're a huge outfit supported by the government. The pax we have we have because we built our reputation over many years of hard work, if we lose them, we aint gonna get them back so quick, trust me!!

If this strike hits the company really badly, they will start making cut backs and the first thing to go, will be some of the crew! New routes will be lost and they'll try to save every penny that they can whereever they can.

Have you any idea why so many of the U.S airlines went bankrupt a few years ago? Because their unions were so damned strong that the crew were on strike every 5 minutes and they lost money left right and centre!!

YES, as i've always said, I want a decent wage, but I'm not going to ruin Virgin's reputation and my chance of keeping my job fighting for it!! When you've been here 15 years plus and you're in your 40's, then maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from!! And before anyone says, "I won't be here that long", can I ask why? Cos it's not your intention to make a career out of flying? Well it wasn't mine either, but I did!!!

Our union will not crumble, we have made our point and the airline now knows we are ready for a fight, but a fight that we can win, not that will see us rub our own noses in Sh*t cos we end up being made redundant!! Let's get rid of B Boyd, he's useless, find someone else who knows what their members are asking for, not one who recommends a deal to find that over 70% of their members reject it!! The company knows we mean business. If we don't strike, the company will see that we don't want to ruin them and that's why we backed down, NOT because we gave in!!

016FSM

2nd Jan 2008, 23:38

Hey Raffles, I see where your coming from and the reason most of us stuck our heels in was because we were following in your footsteps when flight deck said "the money or we strike" and you got the money!!

You get 2 nts in Jnb we only get 1, you get around £300 for an LA we get less than £40, next you'll be telling me you get paid for doing SEP in the office and have a day off after it :{

The difference is, you guys are a much closer knit community than we are as crew and you all stick together. That's almost impossible to do as crew, there so many mixed opinions, such a huge mix of ages, a wealth of different backgrounds and experience that nobody really knows who's in favour and whose against. Even on here there are so many differing views and opinions, and only a handful of VS crew compared to how many there actually are read/post on here!

I can just imagine ringing in to support the strike, turning up at the picket line to find that the strikers in the end are in the minority and the company manages to operate a near perfect schedule!! How stupid will we look then! But i'll tell you one thing, if this strike doesn't go ahead and then you guys end up getting another 'decent' pay rise, they'll be mass hysteria from the crew and THEN every single crew will be on that picket line!!!!!!

The company are not going to give in to our demands. You guys didn't get a strike date arranged and Branson didn't intervene. The Co NEED you, it's not so easy to replace flight deck, we CAN be replaced very very easily!!! That's the unfortunate truth!!

But it really does add fuel to the fire when you say an LA is worth £300 to the flight deck and we get £42!! That is the trip pay, not for anything else other than doing the trip! So the flight deck guys deserve £300 for doing the same trip that we get £42 for, that's FSM's, cabin crew don't even get as much as that!!

VCCM

3rd Jan 2008, 00:46

I nearly didn’t post this because I don’t want the "ants post" to get lost, it is soooo good.

Dear 016FSM,

I have read your posts with interest especially the transition from your first post to current/last post, a serious transformation.

I don’t think BA is supported by the government anymore are they?
I have a good idea of how many carriers in the states have gone bust. None of the reasons in reports I have read have ever cited explicitly it was due to strong unions and strikes every 5 minutes. Reasons cited have included specifically, 9/11 & low consumer confidence post this, the linked mini (pretty major) stock market crash ,credit bubble, further low confidence (tails falling of planes, shoe bombers) expansion of low cost carriers and to ice the cake increasing fuel prices. Most don’t officially go bust, the chapter 11 laws there help them (via government, which I still don’t believe BA would get today, well, not without SRB or MOL throwing a wobbly). Some have now come out of chapter 11 status through changing their business models and a return to consumer confidence.

Remember that many crews took drastic pay cuts to help these airlines. As a result they are still flying under the same name, however there has been some pain as the managers realised they have managed to crew flights at reduced costs and tried to keep this going when no longer required. This then turned to bite them and has then led to disgruntled workforces, the most recent example Air France resulting in strike as management didn’t want to give their new found millions through employee savings back to the employees. (Give an inch and they take a mile).

If the strikes hit home hard then yes cut backs could happen, not only in crew but perhaps in other areas of the company where there is obvious expense that is not required. Many areas spring to mind that have been discussed throughout the history of "the famous Virgin PPruNe debate", however of all of those the cheapest is crew. (How many managers does it take to…. jokes spring to mind).

I would love John Harvey Jones (Troubleshooter) to come into Virgin and carryout a business health check; I think the results would be staggering.

I have been here a considerable time also and have chosen to make flying my career, as for ruining the company in trying to achieve what we are worth, why should the blame fall on our shoulders? This is a two way process - we should have been more stubborn in previous years as our colleagues were. For years the company has underpaid. Initially yes it was discounted as the sense of “family in red” was there, however that is long gone now and with the sharp increase in the cost of “everything” without the associated increase in pay, what used to work by saving and scraping to get by is no longer viable, there simply isn’t any room left, so something has to give, either my years of service or the company. This has been a time bomb ticking down for some time it hasn’t come out of the blue (or red).

If the company has had so many offers from people coming to help, why is it offering incentives also?

Sadly, I do not share your outlook of the company’s actions if the crew back down at this stage; I believe it will only make them more disrespectful towards the crew ,believing that bullying is acceptable, money can buy everything and crew cant afford to strike. The company think that most crew are so small minded that enough will work for short term gains irrelevant of what this will mean in the long term. I however grant the crew with much more savee than that and think most will find the attempt to "buy them off" as a further expression of disrespect and insult and be counter productive

Sorry that was so long, 400 words to say, sorry I disagree

A Red Ant.

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 01:03

Hey VCCM, I hear what you're saying, and you're right, my opinions have changed as a result of reading the comments on here and other forums. I DO believe that I and the rest of us deserve more money, I do believe that we should ALL stick together and dig our heels in once and for all, if the flight deck guys can do it, why the hell can't we?

Having said that, I'm realistic and I can't see it happening. B Boyd has made a real hash of things, the flight deck union laid their cards on the table and told the company what they wanted, all we have said is we want more!! When Oliver Twist said that, he was thrown out on his ear and I think that is what the company are now doing to us!!

IF we had a strong and competant union who were directing and representing us well, I think we could pull it off, like the flight deck did and probably will again, but with the shambles that these negotiaions has been with BB representing us, I don't believe we can. I also believe whole heartedly as I have said a number of times, that I think the crew who strike will have a little black mark by their names and will suffer and I really don't want to be a marked man by the company. If I knew that everyone was sticking together, I would give my support 100% but I think the strike days are going to be a bloody mess! That's why my opinion has changed and I now think we should re consider, get new union representation and then when negotiations next come around, we'll be in a much stronger position. How can we fight the company when our union representative shook hands with the management and agreed TWO deals, one of 2%, BOTH OF WHICH the crew rejected!!

I keep looking at BA's strike in which they had 96% in favour and still they got nothing in the end!!

vs_lhr

3rd Jan 2008, 07:25

a lot of 3rd party there vs_lhr, aren't we in this together, did you not lose out on 4.8% too ?

Sorry, Tinkerbelle, I thought I'd already made it clear (perhaps it was in the previous thread there have been so many posts!), I'm ground based. I have an interest in this because crew actions directly effect me.

vs_lhr

3rd Jan 2008, 07:38

Fear – Seems to be the defining culture of Virgin Atlantic management, reminding me of the kids film ‘Ants’. The film is a moral tale of masses of ants that produce an annual harvest of which the majority is taken from them by a minority of bigger and more menacing locusts. The story revolves around the ants ‘fear’ of the consequences if they do not give up their harvest to the locusts. When an accident causes the loss of their harvest just when the locust turn up for their annual feast they scramble around to find a solution at the detriment of their own wellbeing in fear of the devastating consequences. The ensuing tale is of one individual standing up to their oppressors and the resulting realisation by the others of their strength in numbers and how much in fact their assumed rulers actually rely on them. I guess you can predict the eventual positive ending.

Nice synopsis of the film Ants, but in that scenario it was theft and extortion that the locusts relied on to get the harvest. Crew are employees of the company. As a whole you can see everyone as the ant colony; ideally everyone is working toward the same goal without promoting a 'them and us' culture.

If you really think you are being exploited by the company to such an extent, then clearly you would be doing yourself a favour by getting out as quickly as possible. No one should have to put up with the conditions you describe - that it somewhat akin to a Victorian workhouse.

Kelas

3rd Jan 2008, 07:43

Interesting to see a few of you say "Virgin is the cabin crew". If only! you guys fall way short of the best in the industry in regards to customer service. You will not get your pay rise for 2 reasons: 1) there are plenty of school leavers who would love to do your job at the rate you are currently being paid 2) you're not a united front. How can you be expected to be taken seriously if you don't all want the same thing.

If you want a higher paid job then move!

TightSlot

3rd Jan 2008, 08:20

A few posts deleted today, and one user thread banned after calling others 'scabs' - take note that the use of this word is always unacceptable.

As the big day gets closer, hormone levels tend to rise: You've all been behaving well and posting like adults so far: Please continue doing so.

Once this dispute has been resolved, one way or another (and it will be resolved eventually, even if it takes a strike to do so) many of you will have to work together once more - Try and avoid saying things that might make the process of working with others more difficult.

Digitalis

3rd Jan 2008, 08:40

Nice film synopsis - but it was 'Bugs Life', not 'Ants'! Oh, the pleasures of parenthood - I get to be an expert on kids' films!

VCCM, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that our CC deserve greater reward. I strongly get the feeling, however, that most CC don't appreciate just exactly what the deal agreed by the Union actually represented in percentage terms. It most certainly wasn't a bare 4.8%. Yes, I know that even the 8.5% to 10.5% increase (depending on rank) that had been due to be paid from April 2008 did not wholly address the problem, but it would have been a bloody good start - and, with unity and coherent leadership, a good Union would have been able to achieve much more over the next few years. Sadly, your Union was not up to the job. That's not your fault, nor is it the Company's (their job will always be to keep costs down to maximise profit). It is the Union's fault. That is where you should direct your anger; they have failed you, and they are continuing to fail you by advocating a strike that has no clear objective.

Incidentally, we should clear up any misconception about the difference between what pilots receive for an LA (or any other flight) and what CC get. A very significant proportion of pilots' pay is productivity- and profit-related. That is, they are paid in proportion to the flying hours achieved (up to a contractural limit of 750 hours annually, or more under certain individual agreements), at a rate that is in part determined by the company's profitability - and therefore it's highly likely to reduce next year! It is not 'extra' pay as it is fully pensionable. Hence any flight attracts Flying Hours Pay in direct proportion to the time spent in the air. A similar deal for CC was rejected by the Union, I understand. But I doubt they asked you about that!

Hey Raffles, I see where your coming from and the reason most of us stuck our heels in was because we were following in your footsteps when flight deck said "the money or we strike" and you got the money!! Not true. The pilots never threatened to strike. They simply showed a united, educated and implacable front to the Company, and demonstrated exactly why it would benefit the Company to come up with a deal to satify their demands. There was never any threat to strike. but, equally, there was never any doubts that had such a threat been made it would have carried the weight of unity and clear intent.

As for the CC strike days themselves, no picket lines will be allowed inside the airport area. That applies to any workgroup, not just Virgin, and will be enforced by the Police. Whether it applies to BAA-run car parks, I'm not sure, but you can be certain that no-one will be impeded if they intend to work on the strike days. The atmosphere among those who do work is likely to be very upbeat and fun. I am certainly looking forward to working during the strike - should it hold, which I suspect it won't.

red_eye_rat

3rd Jan 2008, 08:40

Open questions to all. What deal is being looked for? And please a little more detail than 'fair', 'just', 'deserved' etc. Lets hear about facts and figures. Reading the posts here and elsewhere on the web give a very confused message.

As no reply came to this would it be safe to assume that no-one knows what deal is being saught. Few here seem to agree with each other, fewer still with anything the union proposes.
That seems a strange state of affairs with the strike less than a week away.

Kasual Observer

3rd Jan 2008, 08:54

Gosh, how things have deteriorated. The likelihood of the strike achieving its aims (?) is looking more and more doubtful as each day passes. Conversations with my CC colleagues when on flights and downroute give me the sense that they are finally realising that they have made a big mistake and that they have been left high and dry by their pathetic union.

I just wish that there had been a bit more common sense from more of you. I refer back to my original post on this topic here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3625172&postcount=223). I don't want to say "I told you so" but back in October, you were given friendly advice that many failed to comprehend.

The comparisons with the film "Ants" or how we, the pilots, conducted our negotiations is not realistic. We had almost unanimous support from the pilot workforce for our union negotiators. Also, we have a union that is made up of very professional people with excellent support and training packages for our reps. In addition, our union (association) is almost exclusively dedicated to our workgroup and we are not some sub-division of a larger, generalised union.

Also, we did not achieve our aims in one big leap. It took may years of negotiations and incremental steps for us to get our last 3 year pay deal. To watch how your union and its pathetic negotiators have managed to screw things up that so badly for you is not nice. We all agree that you deserve better conditions. What we don't agree on is how your union have gone about it.

So, what can you do about it now? Not much I suspect. The damage has been done. Your terms and conditions as well as working relationships between crew and management will have been set back as much as ten years or more. Those that turn up for work on strike days, and I suspect that it will be a majority, will probably earn enough over the strike days to cover the loss of the 4.8% offer. Those that do strike will almost certainly lose a lot more than just the 4.8% they could have had whilst they regrouped and went into the next round in a much stronger position.

Finally, for those that are going to have a whinge at the fact that a pilot will earn £300 or more just for operating an LAX should consider that we are not paid a "flight supplement". We negotiated an hourly rate for part of our package and we did so from a position of absolute strength, not maybe 30% of our workforce. If you want to earn the money we do than you have to make the effort and do the studies and training we did. It's not rocket science and the majority of us don't even have a university education.

We have achieved our current decent salary by having around 98% membership of a good pilots association (union) who are dedicated to what we do and not just some branch of a general workers union. We incrementally negotiated to where we are today and didn't expect a result in one go. We made proposals to the company that included concessions from us. However, we also showed the company where they could make concessions and how much of our salary could be paid for in increased productivity.

Maybe it's too late for you cabin crew to get your acts together but you should at least try and salvage something by phoning and emailing en-mass to your union reps or better still, your managers and see if you can get a reasonable offer back on the table and show willingness to talk about it. It certainly won't be better than the original deal and most likely will be worse because the company will want to recover some of the losses that the strike announcement has had on the commercial side of the operation.

Unless you are totally united and organised and ready to go into negotiations next time in such a position then you are doomed to many more years of poor terms and conditions and lacklustre, vindictive management. Judging from the posts on here, you all need a serious kick up the arse for not being cohesive enough and for not listening to free advice in the first place.

I told you so! (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3625172&postcount=223) :oh:

VCCM

3rd Jan 2008, 10:24

Kasual Observer

I think you are counting your chickens a little premature, a few messages on here do not show the overall picture, a poll on cabincrew.com shows strong support for strike and lots of crew in conversations I am having with crew are prepared to strike and insulted by the company trying to use futher underhand tactics (pay offs) to get by it.

As for an "I told you so", let us see what happens, it is clear to see there is support for the strike from crew as well as support for "no strike" from mostly other departments (and some crew).

So, what can you do about it now? Not much I suspect. The damage has been done. Your terms and conditions as well as working relationships between crew and management will have been set back as much as ten years or more.This is why we must all now stick as a single unit in order to protect this from happening, Kasual observer has said it, Vs_lhr has said it, I have said it, scoobydoo has said it, if there is ever a time this is it otherwise it's down the tubes.

Judging from the posts on here, you all need a serious kick up the arse for not being cohesive enough and for not listening to free advice in the first place.
Your message was reading so well until that last statement, it sounded a little pig headed.

Vs_lhr after all this time I thought you were cabin crew, now you have said you are office/ground based the pieces line up better.

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 10:45

Your points r very valid KO. The reason I mentioned the £300 which may I add, was the first time I had heard of this payment was because 'Raffles' had mentioned it and the way he did, sounded as if it was instead of the measley £42 that we get. However, I have said all along that I felt our union reps and the union itself really wasn't strong enough to represent us and the whole thing was a shambles.

The main problem being that we as the crew, rely on the union reps, who have had little training to hold that position and have allowed the union and in particular B Boyd to fail us. We belong to the union because we expect to be well represented and to be represented in the way that we have is a waste of time and money and more importantly has ended up in a worse position than we've ever been in before!!

I remember speaking to one of the union reps some time ago who has been here longer than me, who told me, that we should accept one of the previous offers, which included removing a crew member from the aircraft and coming out of air share, because it was the best deal that we were going to get!! I believe that after this fiasco, we should find an alternative union and start looking for new people to stand as union reps. Those who are voted in, should then be given the appropriate training so that this kind of thing never happens again!

I think we have made ourselves look totally stupid in the eyes of the company and have done ourselves no favours!

A question has been asked a few times in this forum that nobody has yet answered and the reason is, because NOBODY knows the answer!! So I'll ask it again and see what comes back:

What was it that the cabin crew wanted in order to accept the deal and what EXACTLY did the union ask from the company? What did Brian Boyd tell the company that we were looking for?

Replying 'Better Pay & Conds" is not an acceptable answer!

gatbusdriver

3rd Jan 2008, 10:49

VCCM

What are you striking for? What is your goal? What would you accept as a pay offer?

As a pilot workforce, we have always approached the negotiating table with a clear cut idea of what we want. This is not always achieved, but it is used as a starting point for negotiation. We have trained company council reps who have the backing of BALPA.

Your union has left you up the creek without a paddle. They are the ones who have let you down. Twice they have agreed offers with the company which in turn have been rejected. This clearly shows they do not have a clue what their union membership wants.

So what now?

Blind strike action, that will in all likelyhood fail to disrupt the company too much, which in turn undermines the union further. The way I see it, you are taking out the failings of your union on the company.

I agreee, you are underpaid. But you have gone the wrong way about it.

sja97

3rd Jan 2008, 10:55

Just a thought, but regarding the number of crew needed to strike in order for 'significant' disruption to services, has anyone considered that unless there are enough defib trained crew on each flight then the planes won't be going anywhere? It doesn't matter if all the JNR and SNR's in the whole company turn up, if there aren't enough CSS's, FSM's and SEP/Av Med instructors to cover each flight then there could be a lot more cancellations.

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 11:04

I'm not 100% sure that it's a legal requirement that we have to have a defib on board???? It's something that we have, but I think the company would find a way around it if was the deciding factor on whether to operate or cancel a flight

VCCM

3rd Jan 2008, 11:23

gatbrusdriver,

Personally minimum for me is inflation and increase in trip pay without standby. It's very close to what the union negotiated with the company. The union also acknowledged in letter 2 I think that 1 crew down, the most common scenario requires better addressing. This would be a bonus this time, but NEEDS to go in next time as I see a mass staff exodus after this saga as people move to other carriers sick of the way this has been handled by BOTH sides. Take the >RPI component (0.5%) and redirect it into trip pay or crew down payments. The deal should only be for one year, so that all the other problem areas can be addressed almost immediately (its nearly time to start neg again), and not brushed under the carpet with empty promises (like we do respect you and will treat you better next time).

I do not believe they are unrealistic, and yes I did communicate this.

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 11:32

Been in contact with a few older timer FSM's and it seems they're all supporting the stirkes! So far 3 or 4 names have also been surfaced who are flying and they are not proving to be popular amongst those supporting the action.

This will certainly cause a massive divide in the company!

vs_lhr

3rd Jan 2008, 12:10

Vs_lhr after all this time I thought you were cabin crew, now you have said you are office/ground based the pieces line up better.

As mentioned in the previous thread, someone I know within Virgin was turfed out for posting information about the company on Internet forums. The 'confidentiality clause'. I find better not to be too specific about where I am; advice which a few posters on cc.com could use (using a handle which is similar to your real name and posting flights you're scheduled to operate but won't be turning up for leaves a few too many clues for the company - and don't doubt for a second they are reading every word posted here, there and the other place).

Personally minimum for me is inflation and increase in trip pay without standby

And herein lies the problem. The key phrase in there is 'for me' - what the union have failed to do is identify what the majority of crew want. You may have communicated your wish list to them, but if they read it, they didn't take an awful lot of notice in the negotiation room.

You cannot deny that the strike support is fragmented. Just over 30% of the workforce is not enough to bring the company to its knees, as they will have calculated how to operate flights with minimum crew and using as many qualified covers as possible. Even if every one of the 1500 who voted yes to strike, and the 1000 who sat on the fence take action on the 9/10th, that still leaves a pool of about 2000 crew for the company to draw upon. Without checking the exact schedules for the days concerned, I'd say there were about 30 flights to get out with the ones we already know are cancelled. Lets say they can get by with 15 crew on each; that's 450 for each day, plus assume the same again are downroute. That's 1800 people needed, and they've had time to juggle rotas and holidays to make that work. With the addition of an unknown quantity of qualified ground-based staff, I'd say the company's planned schedule is actually conservative.

VCCM

3rd Jan 2008, 12:36

You assume all no voters are non strikers. I suppose from the companies perspective the glass is hall full looking at it this way and so that's what they told the press and customers, they wouldnt want to scare people.

Just for one second assume the glass is half empty, then only 12% of union crew are willing to operate plus non members who are not sick (lets not argue on the sick thing, we know there will be huge sickness these days, maybe as high as Christmas >400)

In reality we dont know what the "non voters" will do.

They cant change someones roster, they could of catered for it if the strike dates had been released pre roster issue but they were not, I dont know of anyone who has has had a roster changes to cater for strikes.

If the company has planned it can operate because only 30% of crew will strike then there will be a rude awakening. It would stand to reason that the company perhaps believes it is more than 30% who will not appear to work, could that be why it has offered incentives to bribe people to come to work, otherwise there would be nothing to worry about would there if 70% of crew were coming to work?

vs_lhr

3rd Jan 2008, 13:30

You assume all no voters are non strikers.

No, in my calculation I said assume *all* the no-voters would be strikers.

Justanotherpax

3rd Jan 2008, 13:32

It will be a relief when 9th Jan arrives, then we will all finally see exactly what impact the 'strike' will have, one way or another.

In the mean time, this thread will just go round and round and round :ugh: in a circle of sniping, like it pretty much has done from day one!!

JB1888

3rd Jan 2008, 13:57

Beware people, cabin crew management are phoning everyone just now to ask if you are going to turn up for your flight on the strike days, which shows to what extent they are panicking. Also if they phone you up then DONT tell them your plans( unless you lie, i.e say your gonna turn up and dont!).

Also can i just say that if you have ANY questions about the strike then instead of posting them here i would strongly suggest you phone up one of the reps who will clarify anything need knowing.

But what I have learned is if you are due to operate a flight on a strike day then YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PHONE THE COMPANY TO TELL THEM YOU ARE NOT OPERATING YOUR FLIGHT!!

The whole point of a strike is to cause maximum disruption that will in turn force the company to offer us a better deal, telling the company will allow them to make contigency plans which is why the aforementioned management are trying to work out who will be turning up for work and who won't.

So ignore your phonecall on your phone if you don't recognise the no.

See you on the picket Line!!!

trollytom

3rd Jan 2008, 14:32

hi ive just had a call from a cpm at the office - they rang me at home so i could not screen the call as i would on a mobile. they asked me whether or not i planned to operate on the strike day as i am rostered to do so i said that i was undecided and would be consulting with colleauges on my next flight. They were absolutely fine with this and did not try to pressure me into giving a direct answer however slightly concerned that people will be put on the spot as i was when the call arrives and what grounds they hold people to if they say oh yes i am working or whether you say no im not and then a mark goes against your name to blacklist you and prevent any future progression with the company. Surely if they were given the option of promoting 2 ppl they would look back and say oh yes they operated over the strike therefore they get promoted. this may be the cynic in me but do not all companies operate in this way?

Rumour Monger

3rd Jan 2008, 14:54

I agree that its a bit pointless to be calling call crew to see if they intend to fly but JB1888 if you think that striking will get you more money then what planet are you on? This isn't a game ! :ugh:

interpreter

3rd Jan 2008, 14:55

GATBUSDRIVER makes a very valid point. As a passenger of Virgin I find it very disappointing that so many contibutors on this board put forward so many differing views. Why has your union not sat down with you and agreed EXACTLY what are the key objectives of any negotiation? If your cause is just - and it may well be despite the outpourings of SRB - you must define those exactly and the union should negotiate with the management and then report back to you. As an outsider it seems to me that the union has let you down badly. Perhaps it is time for an arm of BALPA to be formed. BALCCA - British Airline Cabin Crew Association. I fancy the strike will go off "half-cock" and there will just be a messy few days with no real result other than a great number of angry passengers, disappointed CC and a company slightly worse off financially. I am not travelling on the strike days, nor am I an employee of any airline, nor a journalist.

vs_lhr

3rd Jan 2008, 14:57

Surely if they were given the option of promoting 2 ppl they would look back and say oh yes they operated over the strike therefore they get promoted. this may be the cynic in me but do not all companies operate in this way?

Well even though they are supposed to be unbiased, I think human nature suggests that a manager looking at that situation would indeed promote the non-striker.

As for the calls, I think you took the right action in saying you are undecided rather than lie. Wilfully lying to the company could get you into hot water. If I lied to my manager, I'm pretty sure a disciplinary wouldn't be far off - pending strike action doesn't protect you from that ;)

Cyber Bob

3rd Jan 2008, 15:02

So we're playing hide and seek now - fantastic!

Who's counting and for how long?

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 15:10

It does go to show that obviously not as many people as they've been saying have been volunteering to fly, if they had, why are they panicking and calling the crew?

The problem is that as much as the company say they will protect the identities of those who fly and will not stand for intimidation, bullying or whatever you want to call it, their names WILL get out eventually (some already have) and unless they are an FSM who is at the top of the ladder, they may well have a tough time on 'some' flights and downroute and this job can be very lonely if you end up being 'billy no mates'. I'm not saying that I would ever treat anyone any different, and there are MANY people who share my views, but, there are also many who don't and at the end of the day, we have to spend 2,3 and sometimes more days/nights away with people who we may not know until we arrive to check in. We also work in an evironment where everyone reports on everyone, FSM > CSS and CSS > Crew, need I say more?

vs_lhr

3rd Jan 2008, 15:24

It does go to show that obviously not as many people as they've been saying have been volunteering to fly, if they had, why are they panicking and calling the crew?

Who says they're panicking? Perhaps because some crew who previously said they would strike are now telling their managers they will work, this is a re-evaluation of what workforce is available. As trollytom said, there was no pressure to work; they're just ascertaining facts. Something, it would seem, the union has omitted doing.

The problem is that as much as the company say they will protect the identities of those who fly and will not stand for intimidation, bullying or whatever you want to call it, their names WILL get out eventually (some already have) and unless they are an FSM who is at the top of the ladder, they may well have a tough time on 'some' flights and downroute and this job can be very lonely if you end up being 'billy no mates'. I'm not saying that I would ever treat anyone any different, and there are MANY people who share my views, but, there are also many who don't and at the end of the day, we have to spend 2,3 and sometimes more days/nights away with people who we may not know until we arrive to check in. We also work in an evironment where everyone reports on everyone, FSM > CSS and CSS > Crew, need I say more?

Doesn't that cut both ways? As others have suggested, being a known striker could mean crap rostas, poor promotion, few swaps, and generally not such a happy working environment.

As the company have made it abundantly clear that there will be no further deal, logic tells me that those working on the strike day will be better off. Forget talk of "well, those that break the strike should be ashamed when the strikers achieve the pay rise we want", there is no pay rise. It ain't going to happen. The company have dug their heels in too far for any last minute negotiation.

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 16:03

I hear what you're saying, it was me who said and firmly believes that strikers will have a wee blk dot by their name and there it will stay, however, we DO have to fly with a team of crew and we DO spend time away together, for most FSM's, they're old enough and independant enough to do their own thing if nobody wants to spend time with them, but most other ranks, including the largest being 'junior' or 'cabin crew' as they're now called, wouldn't be able to put up with being left alone and having nobody to spend time with and working in a galley with people who who won't talk to them. It's those who I think will be thinking what to do MORE on personal grounds than what is good for the company or themselves financially! Will they want to carry that horrible horrbile name people who don't support a strike are called?

Names will get out because all of our names are on plenty of paperwork that is split around the company post flight (the flight report) it wont take long before they are circulated. Also names will be casually mentioned by ground staff, flight crew, other cabin crew and it will make managing flights even harder than it sometimes already is!! We already have some 'managers' who are not popular to fly with because of the way they treat the crew, so imagine when they fly with crew who did the opposite to what they did!

I'm not scare mongering, or trying not to, I'm being realistic. I've had a lot of experience with crew over the years and I know what they're like. I also had enough difficulty coming to a decision about what to do myself and I've put a lot of thought into it, so I can't imagine what's going through the heads of some who have been in the company less time than me!!

Digitalis

3rd Jan 2008, 16:19

Be careful about suggestions that either one group or another will be stigmatised after this is all over. Remember that whatever your personal viewpoint, you will have to work together both before, through and after the strike period, and you will need to get on both professionally and personally. Difficult as it may be not to, setting against someone because they took a different viewpoint from you is corrosive and damaging. Accept that people's opinions will vary, and that they are as entitled to hold them as you are to hold yours.

While it is possible that individuals' cards could be marked because they struck/worked/abstained, it would profit no-one to do so, and would abosrb a lot of effort and energy better used getting things back on an even keel once this is all over. And, have no doubt, it will be over soon one way or another. If you are consumed by hatred of those who took a different standpoint from you, it is you who will be the poorer - and that's true whether you're CC, management, the Union or the Company!

As I have said, several times, the only way this will be solved is by discussion. The strike will have achieved something if it gets both parties back to the table, but its lack of clarity or stated aims, and the Union's obvious ignorance of what CC actually want, don't bode well for those who support a strike. Sadly, it seems that we will now have to wait until the 9th to see who comes out on top. Whatever the result on the day, I can't see any winners emerging from the dust. Everyone in Virgin will have lost in some way, and that loss will have been unnecessary and futile.

As for crewing ringing round, that does not imply any miscalculation on the Company's part. It simply means they are trying to refine their estimates (for that is all they are) of how many crew they can expect on the 9th, and thus determine both how many flights will actually operate, and with how many crew on each flight. It's one of the few sensible measures being taken while all the nastiness goes on.

BY_boy

3rd Jan 2008, 16:20

I asked BB what on earth the Union is playing at and what they are doing about the current situation and I got the following response -

This Union has had 2 previous recommendations to accept the Company's offer rejected by our Membership. I accept the democratic process, and our members views. It is not a game of charades. Unite is doing everything it can to resolve the current situation. You may need to start asking the Company the same questions you have posed with me.

We have always stated despite the recent vote for strike action, our openness in revisiting the Company's last offer. This position has not changed, and we will support our members until an acceptable solution is found.

Best Regards,
Brian

virgin dolly

3rd Jan 2008, 16:20

1, I've just heard that the union is trying to stop the extra payments on strike days....as it's classed as a bribe....!

2, Also a senior cabin crew rep has just resigned.....!

Could anyone comfirm the above..!

Regards,

Virgin Dolly :ok:

BY_boy

3rd Jan 2008, 16:26

All the reps should resign along with BB

vs_lhr

3rd Jan 2008, 16:51

I've just heard that the union is trying to stop the extra payments on strike days....as it's classed as a bribe....!

Interesting. The union call it a bribe, the company call it a bonus. Not that the union can stop the company paying the additional cash to its own employees. If they were slipping dirty fivers under the table to Boyd, however, that would be a different matter.

Nicola1

3rd Jan 2008, 16:55

Just out of curiosity, i am starting my training on the 14th Jan and i think the strike is on the 16th Jan. Does this mean that the trainers will have to go in the air as all the crew will be on strike. Also, does this mean there will be a break in my training?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

:)

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 17:21

I would check with the company for that answer! Nobody on here will know for SURE! Call them and they'll tell you straight away!

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 17:24

Allow me to re itterate what I said earlier and also in previous posts, I personally respect everyone's views of what they want to do about the strike, we all have our views and are not scared of airing them as we see on here, however, I feel, that many of the junior crew who make up the largest part of the crew network, will be making their decision on how they feel they will be best treated after this is all over. The way they are treated on the aircraft DOES affect them directly and even though I think that is the wrong way to go about deciding what to do, I think it is already happening.

Just wanted to throw that in!!

Also, by the way, apparently there has been a sudden rush on new memberships to amicus over the xmas period, but doesn't say from which company! Any guesses???

VCCM

3rd Jan 2008, 17:44

Black marks, remember discrimination in the workplace rules cover union members being treated differently to non members or strikers vs non strikers. Granted proving it individually could be hard but as a collective, not so hard.

Funny the company have started phoning around now, as advertised the simple response of unsure as of yet is great.

The must have so many volounteers :}:}:}:}

fruitbat

3rd Jan 2008, 18:01

Its all just routine PR before a strike, tell the worrried workers that others are willing to take your job. It's all rubbish of course, it's just the start of the bully boy tactics.

virgin dolly

3rd Jan 2008, 19:12

I've just read another thread and talks have started again with BAA and the union. I understand 1 strike day may now be cancelled.

All the BAA staff stuck together....it's paying off. :D

B.A cabin crew stuck together......it payed off. :D

Virgin flight deck stuck together....it to payed off. :D

If we stick together and stay united I'm sure this will pay off too.

Virgin Dolly :ok:

Hand Solo

3rd Jan 2008, 19:20

All the BAA staff stuck together....it's paying off.

Well they've forced a an assessment of the pension scheme, but there's no solution as yet.

B.A cabin crew stuck together......it payed off.

No it didn't. Everyone knows that BA cabin crew got nothing from their fiasco.

virgin dolly

3rd Jan 2008, 20:03

BAA have beed forced back into talks with Unite.....1 strike day has been cancelled......

B.A. Cabin crew got a "good fair deal" in the end.....So why did'nt the strike go ahead...?

Why did'nt you say anything about our Flight deck.......?

:ok:

Hand Solo

3rd Jan 2008, 20:15

Dolly - BA cabin crew didn't get a 'fair deal' in the end, BA got everything they wanted. The only thing the cabin crew got was discounting of certain illnesses from the absence monitoring program, something which they were already supposed to get anyway. Apart from the that they still lost the 4th purser on the jumbo, failed to get the guarantees on CSD positions on shorthaul, had to self fund the increased pay for juniors by delaying everyones pay rise by 6 months, failed to reopen the MAN base and only got the pension deal that the flight crew had already negotiated. The point of all this is that 'sticking together' does not necessarily get results. A union needs to have a clear and realistic idea of what they want and how they are going to get. Having a 96% mandate for a strike but no real idea of what you want gets you shafted. The VS flight crew had solidarity and a clear plan of what they wanted and how to get it. At this moment in time it would appear that your unions position is much closer to the situation of BASSA in BA than BALPA in VS.

Re the BAA situation, the unions have forced BAA back to the negotiating table but the battle is far from won. There will now be a prolonged period of investigation and negotiation but I'll bet you a beer that in a years time the BAA pensions scheme as it is now will still be closed to new entrants, which is what the unions wanted to prevent.

MuttleyJ

3rd Jan 2008, 20:17

"Quote:
B.A cabin crew stuck together......it payed off.
No it didn't. Everyone knows that BA cabin crew got nothing from their fiasco."
............................

Not strictly true Hand Solo. The "new" contract pay scale was increased and a precentage pay rise was negotiated. Other negotiations at the time resulted in BA and BASSA signing agreements - true, BA have not kept to their side of most of those agreements in the last year, but the union was not to know at the time that that would happen. But the pay rise still stands.

Anyway, back to topic :)

Edited: you were quick and posted before me!! Yes I agree with the points in your above post about BA management, but those talks still resulted in the crew getting a pay rise.

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 20:22

Our Reps are all flying. The TU facilities have been taken away during the dispute. No talks planned despite these rumours. However we have always stated our willingness to get back to the table. I will not be building up any hopes.

Best Regards,
Brian

After I asked Brian Boyd if there were any further negotiations planned

virgin dolly

3rd Jan 2008, 20:35

I'm standing by statement BA cabin crew got a "Good Fair Deal"

BAA are back in talks....good....1 strike day cancelled..!

VA management still could open their door..?....Unite have their doors wide open..!

Anything to say about VA flight crew...?

Dolly :ok:

Hand Solo

3rd Jan 2008, 20:38

The point is Muttley that the pay rise was the same one everybody else in the company got, RPI plus a tiny bit, but by implementing the pay rise in February 07 rather than October 06 when it was due, and not backdating it, it self funded the increase in the new contract pay scale. BASSA didn't actually win any more money from BA above the corporate pay offer, they simply redistributed the pot of cash they had to pay for the increase in new contract scales. Smoke and mirrors.

Dolly - I'm afraid you have to be a little more realistic in your outlook if you want to win a strike. You can stand by your view that BA cabin crew got a fair deal if you like, but majority of BA cabin crew know they got shafted by the TGWU and all the BASSA reps know they came out of it with a rubbish deal. They barely even tried to put any spin on it and accused the TGWU of selling them out. Does that sound like the response of people who got a fair deal? If thats the kind of result you want in Virgin then I'm sure the management will be only too willing to oblige!:ok:

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 20:49

VA flt deck didn't get their deal overnight! For those of us who can remember that far back, they fought for a number of years to get where they are today and slowly slowly, it got better and then finally 6 months or so after 9/11 believe it or not!, when the company was still reeling from the effects of that tragedy, they got to where they wanted to be. Now they are paid in line with other carriers INCLUDING BA flight deck. Yes they fly more hours, but they get better money for doing so.

It didn't happen during one set of negotiations, they climbed a small step at a time for 2 or 3 years and then went for the big one! This is the first time we have even had decent pay negotiations with enough crew to give the union any strength and because we ARE strong enough now to make ourselves heard, I think the 'authority' went to everybody's heads and we decided to "teach the company a lesson" so to speak, vote yes to STRIKE!!

We did quite well by getting the 2% deal thrown out and the 2nd deal of losing a crew member and our air share. We should have taken the 3rd offer of 3.4% but even I didn't see it like that at the time, we were all far too concerned with getting more and more and more. We didn't have good representation from the union or our reps and nobody told us to take it slowly and we'd get there!! Had we accepted this deal, at the end of next year we would already have started negs for the next rise. And remember, when all this is over, our flt deck are going to start THEIR negs for their next rise, do you think they'll stand for Branson saying, if you don't like it go elsewhere?

Human Factor

3rd Jan 2008, 21:31

Yes they fly more hours, but they get better money for doing so.

Bit of thread creep. Virgin pilots are contracted for 750 hours per year. BA pilots are contracted for 900 hours. BA pilots are paid more overall however per hour Virgin pilots are paid a little more!!

trollytom

3rd Jan 2008, 21:41

virgin have 28 volunteers so far to work ....thats direct from the union
they are talking sh!! DONT BE SCARED dont turn up for work. Pass it on

The above msg was txt to me from a few colleagues tonight
Who starts these and where does any of the information come from!!

As much as i would love the number of volunteers be only enough to crwe 2 flights i doubt there is any truth in this and therefore have not sent the message on.

Surely we deserve to see some more communication from the Union regarding matters

I dont agree that a bonus should be paid to those operating flights on strike days - it is just another sign of the companies sneaky tactics and i know when your monthly wage is circa £900 for cabin crew every little helps but in the long run a one off payment of 100 quid and more if you are crew down is pathetic and in the long term means nothing
yes it will help cover the cost of that confirmed J seat you used last month but thats all.
Please think about it before you succumb to agreeing to work for this minimal payment - a payment that is in effect costing VS zero as the monies they deduct from strikers pay will cover this. Dont be greedy and think that its good offer especially if you voted yes to strike please dont be brought by bribery and quite frankly minimal amounts of money.

vs_lhr

3rd Jan 2008, 21:56

As much as i would love the number of volunteers be only enough to crwe 2 flights i doubt there is any truth in this and therefore have not sent the message on.

Not passing it on, yet you posted it on here. That's rather a contradiction, isn't it. Because of the ridiculously low number, I highly doubt the contents too. There have been more people already stating they are volunteering on internet forums.

I dont agree that a bonus should be paid to those operating flights on strike days

In the open letter to Brian Boyd, Steve stated the company is allowed to protect its business; and that is absolutely what they will do. Virgin have every right to minimise disruption to the passengers as much as possible.

a payment that is in effect costing VS zero as the monies they deduct from strikers pay will cover this.

That's probably true. However the strike itself is costing VS far more.

castin

3rd Jan 2008, 22:20

As the day for the strike becomes closer, more and more cabin crew are going to panic because you are not united.
When the Pilots wanted more money they neg a good deal over a period of time plus they had the skills to back up there claim, this was the same for the engineers.
Unfortunetly for cabin crew you really don't have any of it, your officials and reps don't know what there doing, the cabin crew are panicing because reality is finally settling in and you all know that a fresh batch of recruits takes 6 weeks in training.
Also do any of the union officials, cc reps or even crew know what deal they would be happy to except, because through all the replies on this topic not one person has said what the crew want except for "we want more money"

What makes me really laugh is the thought of the crew on a picket line in the middle of january...................:(
Its time to think seriously all crew, where you have been lead and who will help you get out of this mess because the union wont:*

Right Way Up

3rd Jan 2008, 22:54

That F/d deal was not done because of years of working at it. We rolled over a few times because of lack of solidarity. However a certain clever individual put up a very good claim for a pay deal which included some hometruths about VS accounting. The rest is history...

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 23:10

I also received a text message tonight in which I was told that they only had 5 FSM's available to fly, which I doubt as most of the CPM's are FSM's so that's more than 5 just amongst them!! The message also said that we need to contact the union reps so they can update us and we should call them. However I know from talking to Brian Boyd and a rep, that there is currently no news or change in plans and tomorrow (Friday) our reps are meeting him to discuss the matter.

I texted back to the number asking where the information was from and correcting them with regard to contacting the reps before tomorrow and surprise surprise, I haven't heard anything back!! If I'm feeling really devious tomorrow, I may call the number and see who answers!!

I also asked if there was any truth in the rumour that one of our union reps had stepped down, nobody will give me a straight answer so I assume that's a yes!

dorisday

3rd Jan 2008, 23:29

Have heard that one too, apparently its PP the ex-chairman.

016FSM

3rd Jan 2008, 23:36

Oh really!!! I like him, he's always been on our side and not scared to stand up to those who didn't like his views!! It's a shame, he was a real fighter!!

VCCM

4th Jan 2008, 00:03

Surely we deserve to see some more communication from the Union regarding mattersYour union correspondance said there would be an update 4th Jan (today, Friday)

Vs_lhr, do you never tire of defending the company, for an office based person you are very very dedicated. I wish the company had put as much effort into this from the off as you do. :cool:

Castin, What makes me really laugh is the thought of the crew on a picket line in the middle of january...................:( No advice from union yet about picket line, so far the thought of watching movies in bed is far more appealing and gets the job done by not arriving at work supporting the strike. What makes me laugh is the company phoning crew to ask if they will strike, they must have so so many people offering their services (sic)

As for text messages being forwarded, the fact they are being forwarded says it all, logically a non striker would not fwd such a message.

Vs_lhr, your message that the strike is costing the company far more, so why not return to the table for talks, is it a case of not chopping off nose spite face ? dont want to be seen as backing down ? For all concerned they would be seen in a better light if they did return to tables, would help get that message across that they tried to with letters last time "we respect you and have learnt a lot this time".

vs_lhr

4th Jan 2008, 00:42

Vs_lhr, do you never tire of defending the company, for an office based person you are very very dedicated. I wish the company had put as much effort into this from the off as you do.

Maybe it's because I'm still passionate about VS (surely you felt that way at least once?). Or maybe it's because I'm a complete insomniac and there's nowt on telly. I mean, it's 1.30am and I'm still on the internet.

Vs_lhr, your message that the strike is costing the company far more, so why not return to the table for talks, is it a case of not chopping off nose spite face ?

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Salaries are like compound interest, and will be a bill that grows every year. The cost of the strike will be damaging, but a potentially recoverable one-off cost. Depending on how hard the knock-on effects of the strike bites, that recovery could range from minor cutbacks to large-scale redundancies. The most important number in a company finances are its ongoing operating costs - the one-off hits obviously need to be taken into account, but they will swallow them if they know their going into a year where projected turnover outstrips projected costs.

VCCM

4th Jan 2008, 00:46

varga girl

4th Jan 2008, 01:06

Well, I've finally got round to posting after lurking for a little while. Just to make things clear, I'm a CSS, worked for Virgin for 7 years and was still undecided about what to do with regards to the strike until I got that letter from SRB. I thought it was incredibly patronising thoughtless and lazy. His argument that we should not compare ourselves with BA because we are "a smaller, friendlier company" is ridiculous. Yes, 5 years ago I would have completely agreed and accepted the pay wasn't that high because I was made to feel like I was part of something special but the company is so much bigger now. Who can honestly say that their CSM/CPM could pick them out of a line up? Where was the Christmas card, let alone party or present one would get working for a "small, friendly company"-come to think of it, did anyone even say thank you for working Christmas????

I did know the salary when I joined but I also expected it to increase at at least the same rate of cost of living! My mortgage payments have increase significantly more than my salary- if, when Dickie says that " more pay... may be critical for your lifestyle", was he aware that in this instance " lifestyle" constitutes food, heat and petrol-not that glamorous!

The fact is Virgin is not the company it once was, a lot of the fun and uniquness has gone and we are now a big business, our salary should reflect this. Just to pre empt any "if you don't like it, leave" comments, I absolutely adore my job, I have devoted seven years of my life to it and I have shown the company a lot of loyalty, I shouldn't HAVE to leave.

The problem is, if we back down now and do not follow through with our threats to strike, we will never be taken seriously again. I'm sure all crew are already aware of how they are stereotyped by management etc (anyone else heard the term "nodding dogs")? We have to stay firm now. We are not asking for much, just a fairer distribution of monies at Virgin. Crew make up 55% of the workforce but recieve just 3% of the pay.

By the way, this is just gossip so no one sue, I heard that two of our directors may have worked for Ansett and were partly responsible for their crew striking and the company's ultimate demise! Can anyone confirm/deny this?

NWT

4th Jan 2008, 06:15

Castin said
'When the Pilots wanted more money they neg a good deal over a period of time plus they had the skills to back up there claim, this was the same for the engineers.'

not sure when you think the engineers stuck together and got a good deal? They are as disorganised in terms of Unions etc as the CC. The engineers pay rise each year is the same as the rest of the non-unionized staff.

trollytom

4th Jan 2008, 07:08

well said varga girl i completely agree :D:D:D:D

vs_lhr

4th Jan 2008, 08:15

The most important number in a company finances are its ongoing operating costs - the one-off hits obviously need to be taken into account, but they will swallow them if they know their going into a year where projected turnover outstrips projected costs.

So when the company says it has no more money to fund further rises, you dont think finances are as tight as the company is saying either then ?

Ok, I should clarify that. Every business likes to make sure the ongoing costs - ie, the fixed bills likes premises costs and salaries are lower than the ongoing projected turnover. That way it can make a profit. Occasionally businesses will encounter one-off costs, like those often referred to as 'restructuring charges', that mean the business loses money in a financial year. An example is if a business is in trouble, and spending more on fixed costs than it is earning, it is sensible to take the hit on redundancy costs to make future years profitable. There are many ways that any business will fund those costs - including dipping into past profits, or cutbacks on planned projects, or funded through the bank. The last company I work for had a £30m overdraft facility with the bank to cover such eventualities, but the bank only provided that if the business could show they were keeping fixed costs below turnover. I don't know it VS has a similar facility, but I wouldn't be surprised.

interpreter

4th Jan 2008, 09:12

VARGA GIRL
Both LYALL STRAMBI and MATTHEW LEE who are listed on the Virgin website as directors worked for ANSETT. STRAMBI for 26 years and LEE for 11 years so the website says.

016FSM

4th Jan 2008, 10:01

:D:D:D:D:D:ok:

VARGAGIRL, you said it really well.

The one thing this threat of industrial action has shown, is how many crew are SO loyal and faithful to VA. How many will readily admit that they still love their jobs and that's why so many have taken such offence to RB's disgusting comment. Many who were not planning to support the action, have now reconsidered as a result of that. Well done RB, you really know how to make your staff feel valued!!!!

Virgin staff give 100% to the Co and they're paid rubbish money, what would you get out of them if you paid them well? Maybe minimal sickness throughout the year, crew who are prepared to help at any time they're needed should a major problem arise and maybe less leaving so you would have a larger wealth of experience and more dedication.

Those who have been in the company for a good few years, will remember how it was when they started, a fun company, everyone knew everyone, we were allowed to take a few drinks off the aircraft, room parties EVERY trip even if it was just a wee nightcap, having lots of fun downroute, great discounts at the megastore, two requests a month etc etc. As a result Virgin had a great reputation as being 'the' airline to work for. The money was pants , but what a lifestyle and company to work for!!

RB and others at the top don't realise those days are long gone, many of the perks that he talks about in his letter have now long gone, we have the same benefits more or less as all other airline employees worldwide, discounted travel and upgrades when we fly, it's an airline industry perk. We face losing our job if we take a packet of nuts off the aircraft and the way the crew behave has also changed as a result of the growth of the company. VA always wanted to become a 'real' airline' which rivalled others worldwide and now that they do just that, the company think they can still get away with paying the salaries that they did when it was a tiny company.

The quicker RB and others realise that its not the funloving party airline that it used to be and that people still really enjoy their jobs but expect to be paid decently for doing them, the more likely it is that we can all get on with doing a great job and move forward

016FSM

4th Jan 2008, 10:08

People, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese DON'T GO SICK!!!

As it is, not everyone used their ballot paper to cast a vote, we live in a democracy yet so many couldn't or wouldn't make a decision and vote in either direction.

Going sick doesn't support industrial action or the company, it's a coward's way out. Be an adult and make the decision that YOU feel is right, if you support the action then so be it, if you don't then fly but once again,

pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese DON'T GO SICK!!

G-UNIT

4th Jan 2008, 10:39

Shouldn't there be an 'a' in please?

VCCM

4th Jan 2008, 10:48

nice message varga :ok:

as 016fsm says, sickness not cool if a union member. If however anyone is not a union member there is a limited number of ways they can show their support for their colleagues and the cause short of joining the union now.

red_eye_rat

4th Jan 2008, 11:26

Wouldn't someone who supported the cause already be part of the union?:bored:

Whilst I don't agree with the action, I have to agree with the sentiment about the going sick.

If you've got an opinon then let it be heard. If that means striking or if it means turning up for work then so be it. But DONT cast a 'dont know' vote by blaming the vomit bug. This refusal to stand up and be counted is kinda of why we are ALL in this mess in the first place, regardless of your side of the fence.

016FSM

4th Jan 2008, 12:45

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Finally we're all starting to agree on something on here!!

scoobydooo

4th Jan 2008, 13:01

woo, hoo I managed 4 days of not posting, new personal best. Lots to read while I have been away, all very constructive, except the last post which just seems inflammatory so should be ignored.

Continue the debate, lots of developments and more to come I am sure in the lead up, probably starting with the union update today.

VSLHR, you must be tired, either that or on commission per post (JOKE) ;)

Right, lets see if I can do 5 days off now !

scoobydooo

4th Jan 2008, 13:20

Just thought I would share this little ditty from the end of last year, only just checked my mail and one for BB there

Do you know that when the dispute is over, you will go back to
receiving £5 for 1 crew down. BA have just offered their Gatwick fleet
£175 for 1 crew down. This would be a permanent rate, and fixed for
any future flights. All our members must stand up and be counted, and ask
the Company about the possibility of the £160 they are offering
strike breakers to become permanent.

so as not to reignite the BA VS thing he is saying if the company is prepared to offer £160 for 1 crew down member guaranteed during the strike, why not permanently ?

red_eye_rat

4th Jan 2008, 13:50

Just goes to show how out of touch with reality BB is.

You cant compare Virgin (small, yes small private company) with BA (still a large rich company).

It was important to get the best deal that was feasiable for and from OUR company. For once and for all, we have got to stop beating ourselves up by holding what we get by comparison to others.

Lets hope the conversation thats being held between the reps and him today are a little more based in reality and this whole sorry affair can be brought someway closer to resolution.

scoobydooo

4th Jan 2008, 13:54

red eye, you focused on the wrong bit, if the company is offering to pay £160 for 1 crew down during strike action why dont they do it permanently ?

red_eye_rat

4th Jan 2008, 14:00

No, my focus was accurate.

Small private company not being able to match big rich company in crew down payments.

Which bit was tricky?

magicE

4th Jan 2008, 14:07

So where is this update My Boyd if your reading??????

Sorry he wont be reading because i dont think he cares.

Anyone else know??

Cyber Bob

4th Jan 2008, 14:18

The reason that VAA can pay £160+ for crew down during the strike is because it's being funded by those going on strike and those who may decide to call in sick during the period. For it to remain, it would need to be negotiated by - Guess who? - the very person who has suggested that we plead with the company for it to remain.

Do like the way BB has suggested that we ask the company about the possibility of this remaining. I'm sure I read something that BB and the reps are supposed to representing us?. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we pay ours subs in the hope that BB + Co will act with our best interests at heart, yet in reality, it is left in our court to appeal to the company. Fantastic!

I despair . I really do have to question motives. Who is he truely representing here?. I suspect that he is representing himself - certainly making a hash of representing us.

As for the rep's - can't blame them as such. No experience and little qualification's that's why they asked BB to take over. Bet any money, you won't be seeing any of them on the picket line

So we have a union leader who is respresenting - Who?

We have rep's who are supporting who? ( Has anyone seen them since the strike was announced? - thought not)

And the company who is remaining steadfast.

Only one loser me thinks!

scoobydooo

4th Jan 2008, 14:25

No, my focus was accurate.

Small private company not being able to match big rich company in crew down payments.

Which bit was tricky?

Becasue realistic crew down payments dont have to be paid if the correct manning levels are achieved and maintained, likewise if the correct renumeration package (basic and trip pay) is achieved sicnkess would not be so high triggering large crew down payments. But no, virgin wants it's cake and to eat it, insufficient crewing levels, low basic, low trip pay, result high sickness.

As for small privaye vs big rich, was trying to avoid that hence last sentance in my post, but an airline that pitches itself to superior to another must be able to run with the dogs in all areas.

As for keeping the £160 crew down payment, if the company is instigating it it should be kept for good, or they take it away all together, but no that wouldnt help try and bribe people to come to work over strike days, again it is cake and eat it scenario.

Right end from me, getting drawn back into this thread and need to focus on other aspects this.

s3483

4th Jan 2008, 14:28

03rd January 2008

To: All Unite Cabin Crew Members at Virgin Atlantic

Dear Colleague

Subject: Industrial Action Update

Since the previous correspondence from Unite, dated 21st December 2007; you will all be aware of the intense campaign by Virgin Atlantic Management to undermine the decision of some 3,200 Unite Cabin Crew members who have voted to participate in industrial action as a means of persuading the company to review and improve its current wage offer.

As I have previously stated, this decision was not taken lightly by our members. However, it is a clear message to Virgin Atlantic that its Cabin Crew employees are determined to have their contribution to the success of the business recognised long term. Unite Cabin Crew members obviously believe that the current offer does not address certain elements of their Terms & Conditions that would provide these assurances. The increases to flight duty pay are seen as a short term fix and the recognition of seniority has been ignored. The 4.8% increase to basic salary in the first year of the offer is tempered by the uncertainty of what an inflationary (RPI) increase in the second year may amount to.

The approach being taken by the company in its I-Fly communications to Cabin Crew employees is doing nothing positive to help resolve the current situation. The enhancements being offered to fly with crew down, will not be sustained by the Company , and a return to the normal payments which the majority of our crew find unrealistic is inevitable in the wake of this dispute. I am of the firm opinion that Unite members will see through these short term inducements.

I must also mention the recent letter you have received from Richard Branson.. Despite his suggestions, Unite members will not be walking away from Virgin Atlantic. They are however, entitled to continually pursue real improvements to their Terms & Conditions of Employment and are currently exercising this right.

You may also be unsettled by the company’s inferences to the security risks associated in picketing UK Airports. Unite are also aware of these risks and are already in contact with the relevant Authorities. News of our intentions in terms of peaceful protest/picketing will be confirmed on 7th January. The Virgin Atlantic Offices at Crawley may be ideal to concentrate our attentions. Unite will also hold mass meetings for our members to attend on 9th and 10th. Again, details will be confirmed by 7th January.

In conjunction with the above, the single most significant action Unite members have is the right “not to report for duty” on the days of strike. This is such a powerful message and one that Virgin Atlantic management are well aware of. It is the culmination of the democratic and legally protected process you as a Unite member have participated in.

Unite members have proven time and again that their determination to achieve an acceptable resolution.. I am confident that given the opportunity Unite can do this.

In the meantime, please make sure you visit the Unite Website, Civil Air Transport Section, Cabin Crew, Virgin Atlantic page for all strike updates. All contact details for your workplace reps can also be found on the webpage. They are doing a great job on your behalf. Call them and let them know.

Yours sincerely

Brian Boyd
Unite National Officer

vs_lhr

4th Jan 2008, 14:36

This just released by the company: http://www.v-flyer.com/pages.asp?pageid=233

Reaffirming that there will be no eleventh hour deal, and that any future pay negotiations will be effected if the strike goes ahead. Pretty much stuff that we already knew.

strikertworedshoes - the union can look into the payments VS will make to crew who come into work on the strike days all they like; they are entitled to pay their own staff bonuses in whatever way they fancy. It is not against any law.

scoobydooo

4th Jan 2008, 14:44

so clearly trying to undermine the union. Come to work and you will get a payrise... honest !! oohh that's just too funny :}

vs_lhr

4th Jan 2008, 14:58

so clearly trying to undermine the union. Come to work and you will get a payrise... honest !! oohh that's just too funny

Oh, I agree. It's clearly a response to the equally funny text messages going around saying there are only 4 volunteers.

However, it also confirms - yet again - that there is no further deal. So what are you striking for? (not that anyone can give me a single answer!) - is it now just to give the company a good kicking because they can't afford to pay you £27K?

red_eye_rat

4th Jan 2008, 14:58

News of our intentions in terms of peaceful protest/picketing will be confirmed on 7th January. The Virgin Atlantic Offices at Crawley may be ideal to concentrate our attentions.
As every office worker I know is STRONGLY opposed to the strike, that could prove to be an interesting morning...

magicE

4th Jan 2008, 14:59

Ok that update was the most useless piece of information we've had which highlights how flippin S%*T this union is!!!!!!

Sorry i'm just really annoyed!!!

On 20th December we're told that we will get an update on the 4th and now the one on the 4th says we will get an update and things will be finalised on the 7th.

YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING DO YOU, ADMIT IT BB, then we can start to sort this out ourselves(which by the way, you have already asked us to do).

vs_lhr

4th Jan 2008, 15:00

As every office worker I know is STRONGLY opposed to the strike, that could prove to be an interesting morning...

Oooo... I may try and arrange to be in Crawley for the morning. That would be too good to miss.

scoobydooo

4th Jan 2008, 15:03

red eye, that is the funniest post I have read all day, and I really mean it, I have visions of everyone tooled up in the carpark, images of st trinians lots of biting, hair pulling and fake guccis being swung around :D.

If we are picketing at the Base when we come in will it still call us gorgeous ?:cool::O

edit: actually it wouldn be the base as no courses and all instructors trying to cover the programme. so ignore that last bit.

magicE

4th Jan 2008, 15:05

Are you allowed to enter company buildings while on strike!!!

Justanotherpax

4th Jan 2008, 15:05

I have visions of everyone tooled up in the carpark, images of st trinians lots of biting, hair pulling and fake guccis being swung around

What a vivid imagination!! http://www.vegasrex.com/forums/images/smilies/rotfl.gif

virgin dolly

4th Jan 2008, 15:07

Nice one Brian........firm and diplomatic.....more than I can say about RB's last contribution.

If Virgins management have their door closed for negotiations how about looking behind that door. With have Lyall and Mathew who came from Ansett..did'nt they go bust...!
We also have Steve.......did'nt he have something to do with J2000 that almost made Virgin go bust before 911.

I'm starting to think I have a "No Confidence" in our management...?

:ok:

magicE

4th Jan 2008, 15:08

Thats if you can park in the car park!!! :*

scoobydooo

4th Jan 2008, 15:09

my imagination is part of my "virgin flare" , of course I hope you know I wasnt serious... would probably be MkI handbags no gucci.

Justanotherpax

4th Jan 2008, 15:14

my imagination is part of my "virgin flare" (sic)

...and that truly is one of the many reasons why us mere customers love the airline.

I only hope the airline remains after all this is over.........

Rumour Monger

4th Jan 2008, 15:27

Doesn't this guy know his figures?!! Not everyone voted for strike action - only 1497. And what's going on at his union - hear that one VAA rep has resigned and others about to. Why doesn't he call off the strike and accept the 4.8% on our behalf?

magicE

4th Jan 2008, 15:36

Because the 4.8% offer is no longer there. He's too late, he's ballsed it up to much already.

I say a "vote of no confidence" in the union and except whatever is given, then try again in April. We wont lose face with the company because they will realise what we have done in throwing the union out and will possibly treat us with more respect for doing so!!!

scoobydooo

4th Jan 2008, 15:36

Why doesn't he call off the strike and accept the 4.8% on our behalf?

re accept the offer - Becasue the crew said no to the 4.8% with strings attached deal.
re call off the strike becasue the crew said yes to strike, not him.

He is acting on our votes.

scoobydooo

4th Jan 2008, 15:38

72 % votes to strike is a vote of no confidence in the company, not the union.

exvicar

4th Jan 2008, 15:50

72% of the 60% or so of Unite members that could actually be bothered to return their vote.

magicE

4th Jan 2008, 15:52

But Scooby, you must realise that nothing will be gained from striking. And if you do realise that then something must be done. But What?

If everyone goes to work the Company have "won" (gained nothing), If a minority of people(which it looks like being)strike Company "Win" (again nothing gained).

Dont get me wrong the Company as well as the Union should never have let it get this far and are both to blame, and we should not forget the "crew" themselves for not accepting the last offer when it was on the the table with the union backing it.

The fact still lies someone need to be accountable and that pretty much lies with the union considering that they are PAID for getting the best deal and fighting for what the crew WANT(still no one knows) which is precisely why they should go. They have not done what has been asked from them and PAID for.

We all no that is no confidence in the company right now but unfortunately there is nothing that can be done about it because there is no money and there will not be another offer to restore it. I agree that once this is all over with some management should not and probably wont be here but that is a long way away.

If the MAJORITY sack the union you show that the "crew" are united and know what they want. Show them that you will do the necessary to get what is deserved but do it in a way that can be "won" and i assure you it is not Striking......

I Just Want To Fly

4th Jan 2008, 16:09

But if we sack the union, what are our options? I agree that Unite has been pathetic over the last year. But I'm scared to leave, and become non union. What happens if I get into trouble, and need their help? Is there another union we can go to?

scoobydooo

4th Jan 2008, 16:34

sacking the union is not a viable option. After this has ended restructuring the union is very viable and necessary and can be discussed at the mass mettings next week, lets put the questions forward about improving communications.

Regarding your strike scenarios

If everyone goes to work the Company have "won" (gained nothing), If a minority of people(which it looks like being)strike Company "Win" (again nothing gained).

There is one you missed, "a large number of crews go on strike and severely disrupt the programme (which from what I am hearing looks like it will be) the crew members win", how, by showing the company we are united and will not be taken for granted.

Then the company gets the message and make a sensible offer without strings and a plan moving forward then the restructuring referenced above can be put into place.

By not offering for example (this is hypothetical) 5% no strings at a cost of circa £3.3M per annum assuming crew distribution as (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3801642&postcount=116 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3801642&postcount=116)) assuming it is all PAYE rather than paid another way.

It will cost the company much more in lost bookings as strikes continue and passengers decide to book elsewhere, as someone has already said a lot of business accounts have stopped already. The company saying there is no more money to offer and a final offer has already been made, was said after day one also, and subsequent offers transpired (all but one horrendous). The boy who cried wolf is now being chased by the wolf.

As already said, there needs to be improved communication channels moving forward, however is there any point in these if a company is not willing to invest in its staff as it has demonstrated so far but has invested elsewhere, likewise the talk of future profits going to green projects... that will be airshare worthless in its current profit related format rather than turnover.

Latest i-lie update, if you are having trouble getting through to the volunteer line due to high volume of calls. Oh that's funny.

vs_lhr

4th Jan 2008, 16:57

The company saying there is no more money to offer and a final offer has already been made, was said after day one also, and subsequent offers transpired

Ah, Scooby. How I missed you over the last few days ;)

This presumes there is a bottomless pit of money; which of course there is not.

As I have already suggested, and no-one has yet provided a rebuttal, is it not feasible the first offer was the best offer they could afford *at the time*. Given enough pressure, they can go back to their spreadsheets, see what savings can be made elsewhere (and that includes the crew having to make concessions to help pay for that) and then come back with a revised offer.

Since you and I last discussed the matter of the cost of funding crew pay demands, I have found the latest profit figures post earlier in 2007. In it, Virgin only made marginally over £3m. That would be wiped out by your 5% no strings demand; so I can totally understand the resistance from the management.

Now, it has to be said that the pathetic profit numbers are mostly due to Virgin Nigeria eating about £40m of the company's turnover; and I do wonder whether there is a long-term future in which Virgin Nigeria will give the company a return. I do hope so, otherwise it was an unholy mistake.

Back to the rises; I actually think you deserve more than 5% (pick yourself off the floor, Scooby!). I've studied the last CAA figures and genuinely think a realistic goal should be an average cc wage of about 15K. That would be an average rise (based on the same CAA figures) of around 11%-12%. The important part is how do you get there. Not all in one step - that would be unmanageable for the company's delicately balanced annual operating plan. And you would have to make deeper concessions on benefits and terms, otherwise the company isn't going to wear it. I support the idea of building some kind of incentive into the deal so that the sickness problem can be reduced (and therefore leave more money in the pot to reward those who actually fly).

But, I still think the strike is a big mistake. The company isn't going to budge (they're going to too much effort to prepare for the long haul, if you'll excuse the pun). The strike will cost the company money, and yes, that will be an excuse for no payrises for a long time (for any employee). If there was any way to avoid the action, but get prepared for negotiations in April, I'm pretty sure the company would be amicable to avoiding another long drawn-out dispute. Whether the company thinks the union is toothless or not, the very threat of strikes effects business, and VS need to avoid any more of that. One thing though - the union needs to be beaten into shape and realise what their responsibilities are, or shown the door.

Hope your New Year was a good one, Scooby ;)

super aviator

4th Jan 2008, 17:14

Well i must say your union sounds about as good as Maxjet !!!

Good luck with the strike and i hope you are happy with whatever you can get !!!

See ya at the office when you picket ;)

regularpassenger

4th Jan 2008, 17:27

I vote...sack the union and company management and put Scooby and vs_lhr in charge! It would be soon sorted then...

I'm sorry I just think this is a mess, on both sides. And I can now only see the union losing this one. I think the last pay offer was a good one as a starting point, but using a strike as a stick to beat the company just isn't going to get anywhere. The idea that came from a lot of posters is there will be an 11th hour deal. There won't.

I think the CC are worth more, I do, and I wish you the best of luck. Just think its a tough fight you now have.

RP

scoobydooo

4th Jan 2008, 17:39

Good post vs_lhr, I agree with you 100% - (I didn't pick myself up off the floor, so now you are down here with me as you have just hit it too - people will talk :cool:)

So I see a couple of ways of doing this, either you come over to mine and we hammer out a deal or I come to yours....

Just kidding so given that you and I have already discussed things that need addressing moving forward namely;

From employees point of view;

Basic, Trip Pay,Length of service recognition (financial), Crew down, Allowances ,car parks, promotions/fast track (transparent) the list goes on and on

From company point of view;

Sickness, sickness, sickness, increased productivity (what else does the company want ? (that is a genuine question).

So how do we get there, I see a number of ways. Hammering out for example a 3 year deal to try and ascertain these things, this however would take a lot of negotiating and at present time is of the essence, we all want to get something acceptable to both sides imminently to call the strikes off. So... a 3 year deal, good for the company but time scales do not support it, also not great for the crew because there is not much ability to review the progress of it yearly.

How about a 1 year deal (which is nearly up) which for example offers 4.3% basic with no strings, the 0.5% difference is redistributed into trip pay for juniors and seniors. I think the next set of negotiations are set to be in April time, 5 months away, so in the next 5 months the reps along with the unions and management try to create a 2 year deal to as you say bring us inline.

That leaves the standby month that the company wants, well no one wants it, however if we can reduce crew sickness then we can hopefully reduce the requirement for standby cover, so why not agree to introduce the extra month of standby in 5 years for a period of e.g. 18 months only and then as phase II of improvements are implemented it is removed (phase II discussed below) but it would have to be contractual that after 18 months it is gone and could not just be re-agreed through council agreement.

As I mentioned before (sorry record player) we both know that if correct manning levels are attained and crew came to work through less sickies and the incentives were there, there would not be an issue - sounds very basic, but it;s one hell of a formula but we need to address it because right now, there is more sickness each year, so the company wants more standby - if we dont instigate serious changes in 10 years time we wont have rosters everyone will just be on standby 11 months a year !;)

So how I think a 2 year plan could be achieved;

In order to reduce sickness it must be, not expensive to not come to work, that's the wrong word, how about "lucrative" for crews to come to work so phase I of deal II targets trip pay, and we see what this does for sickness, if on comparing historical data it shows reduced sickness we increase crew down payments, if less crew are going sick the hit is not as hard to the company (we review sickness again after a period of time). In phase II of deal II we look at bringing basics in line a bit more, again reviewing sickness to see what sort of impact this has, if positive we we further enhance crew down payments.

Imagine a league table with number of sickness last year and the company publishes it monthly, target to start with is for example 90% of same time last year, if this is achieved crew down payments are increased by 10% (that's 10% of the new decent amount not piddly £5 etc). At each review stage say quarterly if targets are achieved the crew down payments increase, it is now in the crew best interests to not take the sickie. Rank results too, it would be nice to see the results by rank, if certain ranks are worse than others (I have my guess of what is worse) but perhaps as mentioned below if a.n. rank achieves its target and another doesn't, the low ( sickness by % obviously not including long term) rank achieves an increase.

At the same time we need to look at crew turnover, are we recruiting the correct sort of people, why is it so high, how can we keep experienced crew.

If we can get everything just right then crew will go the extra mile, sickness should reduce, crew feel valued (especially through length of service pay). increased productivity should happen as a by-product of all of the above without the need for expensive crew down payments.

I have other ideas too, like the value of crew down payments are linked to length of time in the company e.g. a unit value x years served, i.e. if you are a 4 year serving senior your crew down payment is higher than a 2 year, or it could be linked to rank (though the fast track scheme or the my mum knows someone or your boyfriend is a cpm thing makes this a bit messy)

Obviously when I say lucrative to be at work we cant discriminate genuine long term sickness (> 7 days with a docs note)

Well, those are just a few ideas rolling around in my head, shall we get up off the floor now :).

Loving the new Year, lots of resolutions, broke the no prune one after 4 days !

apologies for the format, I just kind of brain dumped (that's why there's not much)

Justanotherpax

4th Jan 2008, 18:38

Scooby / vs_lhr

Reasonable, considered and well informed discussion!!

Virgin Management / Amicus please take note...........

:D:DTHIS IS HOW IT CAN BE DONE!!!:D:D

Seriously, thanks and well done guys, great posts.

magicE

4th Jan 2008, 18:46

Scooby, are you a union rep? If not i nominate you!! (If you are, what have you been playing at;))

Not sure if all your ideas would work but at least its a start. At last this thread conjuring up some good ideas, keep it up.

:D

01nofun

4th Jan 2008, 19:27

Do you not think we are worth it?

01nofun

4th Jan 2008, 19:35

Sorry everyone, just getting carried away whilst reading VS_LHR.

Been a very keen ovserver for soooooo long, just wondering what my colleagues really think- flyer and ground included.

I am, as my title refers, an 01... I am one of the few that have been rostered to fly on the 9th.....I talk to everyone I know, crew and management alike.....I have talked to friends and family....it comes down to one thing for me.....I will be at home, I would never be able to look at myself in the mirror everyday I come to work to sell my soul.....there are many like me that will be at home so no-one will be on their own.

Dan Air 87

4th Jan 2008, 20:16

From my memory of the strikes in the 1970's, wasn't there an outfit called ACAS to get involved in such a dispute to try and broker a deal?

If ACAS do exist, then their services are really needed now to try and bring both sides together. After all, if ACAS have resolved some of the hardest industrial disputes then aren't they the right people to step in here?

regularpassenger

4th Jan 2008, 20:21

ACAS do exist: http://www.acas.org.uk/

ACAS negotiate the middle ground between the union demands and the company's requirements. The problem here is that there doesn't seem to be any specific union demands so how can middle ground be found?

If the Cabin Crew aren't communicating with the union specific requirements they would be happy with, how can any discussions take place?

Else it would be an excellent idea :D

coolhandlu

4th Jan 2008, 20:53

I don't imagine you will get much support if you choose to picket The Office.

The crew are not the only vital part of the organisation. There are a miriad of critical jobs done by dedicated people, many of whom earn less than crew, without which there wouldn't be an airline. Without Engineering there wouldn't be any planes for you to fly on. Without the Contact Center there wouldn't be sufficient passengers to fly on them. Without the IT systems we wouldn't be taking any bookings OR payment for bookings. The list goes on and on and on.

No one that works in The Office (or any of the other VAA buildings) can be expected to support your demands, not least because neither you, the Union, VAA management nor any of the ground based staff know what those demands are. It appears from these forums that this is the Unions fault, not the crews.. but that's irrelevent now.

All I see, and my colleagues can see, is that the Union negotiated a deal, TWICE, recommended it, and it was rejected. How anyone can blame VAA management is beyond me. They aren't clairvoyant, how were they supposed to know that Union members would turn down a Union recommended deal?

If your threatened industrial action is disruptive enough, you WILL threaten the future of Virgin Atlantic. Therefore you WILL threaten the jobs of all the people who work so hard to get you the planes, on the tarmac, at the right time, with sufficient passengers for you to be able to fly. Do you expect to receive support from these people? These people, who, at the very least, can now expect to receive nothing or yet another less than the rate of inflation payrise due at least partly to this dispute?

The infamously good Virgin crew are only part of the reason passengers fly with us. Many of the pax on any given flight will have chosen it simply because it is the cheapest fare available to them, or perhaps because we are the airline flying Virgin Holidays passengers to their destination, or perhaps because of the generous flying club rewards we offer compared to other airlines. Or because Upper Class costs only the same as BA business class. I could go on. The point is, crew are not the only department that make VAA what it is. Yes, you can break us if you choose. You can loose me my job, you can loose yourselves your jobs.

I personally agree with you long service posters who ask why you should have to leave after making a career with Virgin. I agree there should be some sort of recognition of long service that enables you to stay. As many others have stated however, when it comes to wages, market forces win. If Virgin can crew their flights to a satisfactory level with an apparently bottomless pit of young people who can survive on low wages, then they will. Simple as that.

Do me, yourselves, and the rest of VAA a favour. Call off the strike and get back to the negotiating table. While you're at it, tell the rest of us what it is EXACTLY that you are after. I am sure if the ground staff understood what it was you wanted and why (and it was reasonable), we would support you. If you had the support of non-crew too, you would be unstoppable.

Fournier Boy

4th Jan 2008, 21:07

That i think was a particularly well put post coolhandlu, the best I've heard in a long time.

strike1

4th Jan 2008, 22:29

Scooby you make me laugh, well just arrived from a New Year trip 3 crew down!!!! what a surprise, and whilst ill get a miserable pay for working my ass off and making sure pax would not notice the crew down, my so called " colegues" who will turn up to work will be " bribed " by VS with still pathetic money ( but more than ill get) to screw their colegues !!!
RB s letter, well............ i better not say what i think, but it has made me more determined to strike, so basically we are all stupid for thinking that loyalty and hard work should gain us some financial recognition OH NO NO!! we joined VS because we LOVE the airline so much and Sir RB, that we just should never think that we will be recognized, and the 12 years + service " sorry useless, go somewhere else" well isnt he nice!!!! im amazed he still has that image of the great employer......take not future virgin recruits .. u are useless, u service a purpose "" work ur ass off till u drop dead" and then good bye as soon as u dare to ask for some sort of recognition!! makes me so angry.
Well on my crew, most of the crew will stay at home, except 2 poor new ones, they have no opportunity even though they felt terrible for being forced to work, and the beautes who will have to don a tabard and work as crew and not deliver massage " disgusting"
Lets hope people really think hard at what they will do to crew realtions if they turn up for work and screw their collegues who will be risking everything for ALL of us to be recognized !!

scoobydooo

5th Jan 2008, 00:30

Having engaged in far too many ciders ( home brewed)

P.S. yes, grammar and spelling is not my forte, if I had a pound for every mistake I would be as well off as a BA crew member :}.
...Sorry, sometimes (normally) I forget to spell and grammar check as passion takes over.

No I am not a union rep, I think the union reps have a hard enough job without having someone like me to contend with, I will instead continue to alternate between crew member and wanna be rep engaging in childish banter with ocassional insight of wisdome earnt from all the crew and passengers I engage from day to day.

(Besides VA would probably boot my a*s out the door faster than we can say "Fur coffee ?" if they found out who agent Scoobydooo was).

magicE

5th Jan 2008, 04:38

Strike1, This is directed at you, as you are obviously very keen to Strike.

What do you think you will achieve by going on Strike.

I am not trying to make a point or get on your back, but would seriously like to here what you think you (being crew in general) will achieve/succeed in?

Tom Sawyer

5th Jan 2008, 09:23

Strike1; You refer to flying crew down. Was it a case of the flight was rostered to fly with crew short? Or was it case of the crew called in sick / didn't bother?
Just dispatched a flight today, 3 crew down because of sickness. The ones called out , x2 went sick when called out and the other one just didn't turn up. Did a flight yesterday that was 4 down due to "sickness". Christams Day was similar, but all the rostered ground staff turned up. Now really, how can you blame the company for this kind of situation? It is really frustating reading comments about flying crew down, when it is crew colleagues "stitching up" other crew, no contribution from the company to the situation that I can see. No doubt there will be comments about it being due to poor morale, but this is a persitent problem that has been going on for years in good times and bad. Would an increase in the crew down payments resolve a situation like this? I cannot see how. In someways it could actually exacerbate the scenario. And as an aside, if one of my "team" doesn't turn up for whatever reason, the rest of us do not get a compensation payment, but still have to cover that persons work and it is "front line" and so also could affect pax service and schedule. (No comments about get a union to get you one then, please!)
Now doubt someone will reply and defend this situation. But for those of us on the ground who see this, it is very frustating in the current climate. Is it any wonder that many other departments do not support your cause?

coolhandlu

5th Jan 2008, 09:29

Well said Tom

greigok

5th Jan 2008, 10:33

Good Post Tom. I have been saying this all along...the reason half these flights are crew down is cause crew hate the trips they been rostered or they just can't be bothered. Then they still want crew down payments increased.

Perhaps the crew need to tell each other not to call in sick when there quite well and healthy.

scoobydooo

5th Jan 2008, 10:40

yes, also by redesigning allowances so that the difference between allowances for a flight of equal duration but different destinations does not vary so drastically. e.g. Delhi vs Washinton. A flat rate e.g. duty pay would help reduce sickness and the amount of people trying to swap trips.

greigok

5th Jan 2008, 10:44

Actually there is no excuse for people letting there colleagues down, just because of the allowance down route is not good or gone down.

Then the ones that do cry sick...get a flight that is crew down have to work harder...oh and guess what are the first to moan.

Come back with a better argument!!

The Moo

5th Jan 2008, 11:22

At BA do you know how much we get for going a crew member down ? £250 per sector.

Tom Sawyer

5th Jan 2008, 11:31

And does it resolve crew down on BA flights?

greigok

5th Jan 2008, 11:32

Yeah that's ba lhr..my housemate does long some long haul out of lgw and always crew down and doesn't get anything.

greigok

5th Jan 2008, 11:34

Hi Tom, In answer to your question does it resolve the crew down..that would be no as they have to cancel flight at lhr ba because they do not even have the minimum crew sometimes.

exvicar

5th Jan 2008, 12:11

A flat rate is inappropriate. The allowances are, in the eyes of the UK tax man, to be used for purchasing food and beverage down route hence they are paid in cash and free of tax. I do believe that you deserve a better deal but a down route allowance is supposed to be just that.

Virgin89

5th Jan 2008, 12:15

The Moo, why do people continue to go on about what BA get verus what VS get. This has been going on for years and will continue to go on I'm sure, however it's pointless.

BA are recruiting right now so what don't people go and work for them?

To be honest it's because some people at Virgin want the VS lifestyle and the BA package. That is never going to happen.

I have many friends in BA who love the money they get, however want the VS lifestyle, the flexibility, the chance to request, good perks etc, but they know they won't get it at BA, so they stay for the money.

Regarding all the talk about the company now starting to contact crew who are operating over the strike days (i've just had one of these calls) to check to see who is and who isn't operating, what company wouldn't do this? They are trying to maintain the operation as did BA and AF recently during their disruptions and I don't blame VS for doing this at all.

I hear that there are many people who are offering to stay on their flights, work extra days and give up leave. Not the 28 people that the last text I received seem to mention.

Like I've said before, respect people who want to and are willing to come to work and equally respect people who feel that striking is the thing they should do.

I would respect anyone who comes to work and helps the company out or equally decides to stand on a picket line. I respect anyone for their choice, what I would find hard is people who just go sick and stay at home.

I wish everyone luck over the next few days. We are all going to need.

do-not-disturb

5th Jan 2008, 12:57

I have read all the threads on this topic and would like to share my views with you, rightly or wrongly.

Firstly, I am VS cabin crew (JNR) and have been for a few years.

Secondly, I am not in the Union, for precisely this reason, when they need to earn their pennies and their back is against the wall, they let their members down, which will be evident later during industrial action.

I would emplore every single cabin crew member who voted yes to industrial action to seriously think about what they are doing for the future of their company and the security of their jobs.

I left a better paid job to come to virgin, and I joined knowing full well that the salary wasn’t great, but that was the choice I made, and adjusted my means to get by.

We all want more money, every single one of us, Human nature unfortunately dictates that these days, but please be realistic in what you are demanding. I listen to crew who voted for action and in asking them why, I get very different reasons. The majority I have spoken to actually say “because we have had enough of being treated like Sh*t” or similar, that “we want to be recognised and rewarded for what we do”. A lot of people say its because they want more money, but it hasn’t been the majority voice, so I’m left very confused as to what the strike action will be for.

Lets go waaayyy back to the start of the pay negotiations. Any pay increase (which can also be called “cost of living rise”) should be based on cost of living (inflation) and any changes to the role in question, ie, new/more work, increase or new skills used or reward for any training or specialist new to that role. In the last twelve months there have been no changes to the role of cabin crew in any rank, therefore the pay increase, it is fair to say therefore, can only be based on inflation. We actually work less as well, thanks to the 900hr rule.

Inflation at the time I believe was 3.9%, so , and this is where the whole thing starts…. The offer of a 2% pay increase by the Director of Cabin Services was a complete insult and a clear statement that she and her management team held little or no regard or respect for the community for which she is accountable, and it has been this initial insult which is the backbone of the industrial action.

Strip everything else away and what you have is an offer of basic increase of 4.8%, no strings, which is above inflation, higher than any other uk airline, so how can that not be deemed reasonable and fair???

So if industrial action is to have better terms and conditions and to feel more valued for the job we do, then PLEASE DO NOT STRIKE. Accept the 4.8% and use your union further to put pressure on the company to ‘shake the management tree’ as there is a vote of no confidence in the management team, where implied trust and confidence has broken down.

If you want more money, PLEASE DO NOT STRIKE. This is what has been offered, so accept it and use it as foundations for future pay negotiations as the crew community will certainly be a body that will be listened to carefully in the future.

Many comparisons are made between BA, pilots, ground staff, sep trainers. Forget this. BA is a different kettle of fish. Always will be. If you want to come up to the same level as BA, then use your union to negotiate higher rates of overtime pay, day off payments, trip allowance, crew down payments, incentives on high sickness routes. This is where BA earn their money, due to what they have got their union to negotiate for them, separate to basic pay increase. Pilots have a much stronger union and have differing terms and conditions which are contractual. There is a worldwide shortage of pilots, which is why terms and conditions are more favourable. Even at the low salary offered, there is no end of applications for cabin crew, and this has to be realised and accepted.

As I go into the new year, it is with sadness and fear, as I am unsure what the future holds for me, as do those that will strike.

I can’t help thinking that where we are divided at the moment, some of those who strike and some of us that don’t will be joined together at a later date either at interviews at other airlines, or signing on the dole, due to the damage this will cause. One step at a time guys. They know they’ve ballsed up. Give them a chance to make it right. It won’t be over night and it won’t be all at once. I write this with the upmost respect for all the views printed on previous threads. Best regards

vs_lhr

5th Jan 2008, 13:23

Good post vs_lhr, I agree with you 100% - (I didn't pick myself up off the floor, so now you are down here with me as you have just hit it too - people will talk )

Rolling around on the floor with Scooby. Could be fun. Hey, I ain't gonna knock it until I've tried it... ;)

I was reading a few long posts on V-Flyer today, starting about a third of the way down page 12 (http://www.v-flyer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22443&whichpage=12) with frangipan's summary SRB's letter and where both crew and management have miss-stepped. A longer post on the same page, again by frangipan, is to my mind, one of the best summaries of management mistakes. Things we all kind of knew where happening around us, but never before have I seen such clarity in thought and it's an eye-opening read that I recommend you have a look at.

Now, back to rolling around on the floor with Scooby. ;)

Your plan is reasonably good, although I think you have to be realistic and rule out getting anything in 2007. The negotiation is over. Both sides are too strong headed to want to give in - no matter how much cooing we do from the sidelines. Taking it to a strike has cost everyone dearly, and I still believe the fault lies squarely at the feet of the union who were recommending deals they didn't get a mandate for. As far as I can tell, the company goal is now to crush the strike and that means zilch for crew in terms of negotiations this year.

All those who are still advocating a strike, I really am at a lost to understand what you think that will achieve. As you can see, VS aren't going to move at all. This will just mean lost earnings for you and an excuse for no rises long into the future. As others have said, unfair as it may seem, I wouldn't be surprised if strikers where just 'managed' out of the company.

The union have failed you, and are leading you into a no-win situation. Why not simply abandon them and tell your managers that you have no faith in Boyd but need a deal to avoid action. Then send Scooby in to represent you. That'd sort it out ;)

magicE

5th Jan 2008, 13:50

:ugh:

I'm glad you have just said that vs-lhr, exactly what i was trying to say a few posts back. Must be the way I wrote it?

strike1

5th Jan 2008, 17:18

For Magic, well we might not be able to achive much, (if people fall into VS bribery and go to work! which i can see alot of people doing,rather than take the pathetic 200 quid and maybe better off in january why dont the look at what we could achive for the future,) but at least we will show Virgin that people like me, and there´s lots, that have been working hard, put up with every excuse for years, are no longer happy to accept, and infact are so pissed off that are willing to risk, work, money etc to show Virgin that enough is enough, and if we dont do it, then nobody will and VS will carry on taking the piss!
Someone said that BA is recruiting why dont we go.. I have served 12 years + with VS and do not want to go, FULL STOP, why should I, i just want to be recognized.
Its amazing i flew BA the other day, ground staff, crew, everyone was so supportive and told me that we should stand up and fight, i even got upgraded to club as a show of support, and yet in my own airline i have to read and hear comments on how selfish we are, how we are destroying the airline etc.... its terrible, and thats the " virgin spirit , family atmosphere" that management drum us in day in day out!!!
This job is already going down the drain, and it will get worse and worse if we dont start doing something about it now, or one day we will wake up, and be working for " MCdonals in the air"

virgin6670

5th Jan 2008, 17:26

For those of you that have heard the rumours that one of the reps has stood down. I would like to confirm that they are true. I Paul Powell rep of 6 yrs and ex-chair took this decision on the 24th Dec 2007.
I would like to say a big thank-you to my ex colleagues on the union committee and wish them all the best in their efforts to try and resolve the current situation.
Regards
Paul Powell:ok:

greigok

5th Jan 2008, 17:30

Why did you choose to step down...any reasons for that?

virgin6670

5th Jan 2008, 17:48

This was a long and agonising decision to make. I stood in the crew room in the month of Oct advising the crew to accept the offer that was on the table. In all 5 ballots that took place over a 1,000 members did not use their ballot paper. In the last ballot for industrial action still a 1,000 plus did not return their ballot papers. Listening to those that voted to take industrial action, many indicated to me that they would go to work. The message I took from this is that they wanted the Reps to stand on the picket line while they continued to work. Even now the Reps have been receiving emails and texts indicating there is no real appetite for industrial action. As a person of principle and values I could not ask the people to accept the offer with one breath, and with the next breath ask them to go out on strike because 61% of those who bothered to return their ballot paper did not accept the offer. This is approimately 30% of the entire union membership.
I respect all of those people whom returned their ballot, regardless of which way they voted. I also have respect for those Reps which remain on the committee and are committed to finding a resolve. Personally I have stood on the committee from 1999 and feel that now is the right time for me to move on. I hope the crew will respect my deceision.

greigok

5th Jan 2008, 18:17

I fully respect your decision and do agree that people have had the option to voice there support either way with the ballott papers and alot did not send there's back.

It's all very well to voice an opinion on a crew forum, but they should of been voiced on the ballott papers too.

Thanks for posting ur comments.

SKYMAN

5th Jan 2008, 19:40

Strike1

"Its amazing i flew BA the other day, ground staff, crew, everyone was so supportive and told me that we should stand up and fight"

Of course they were, they want us to strike because they benefit big time from the pax we carry having to fly with them. They want Virgin to be front page news, but not to help you (they really don't care), but to help themselves. Get real!

As it happens the pax can stay with Virgin as they will fly as per normal.

Dan Air 87

5th Jan 2008, 19:48

This industrial action is a tragedy; I would urge those involved to look at other organisations that have had strikes which have changed for the worse. Look at Alitalia. Yes they have had strikes which have crippled the company and what has been the result? Has the strike action worked? Have the unions got what they wanted? The answer is they haven't which is one of the reasons why they are beng absorbed by KLM-AF. Is that what you really want to see happen to your airline?

VS-LHRCSA

5th Jan 2008, 19:48

I've worked for both companies and am now at BA. If I was to give my support to Virgin crew, which I do, the absolute LAST thing I would be thinking about would be "now is our chance to steal their passengers" or something like SKYMAN is implying. I would be saddened to think that anyone at VS would think that of BA staff. BA management might be thinking that, just like I'm sure VS management were thinking back in February 07, when BA crew were about to strike but your average everyday BA staff member would want nothing but the best outcome for the Virgin crew. How can that be turned into something selfish?

strike1

5th Jan 2008, 20:49

Skyman, like vs-lhr says ba crew dont give two monkeys if they get more pax or not!!! what world do u live in man? they are just collegues who know very well ,that we do exactly the same flights, working more than they do, and we get paid f,.. all compared to them, so they actually do care , which is something i cant say, for even my own collegues never mind other virgin emploees!!!
Really some people here should really get out of the virgin world a bit more.... i mean have you all been to some kind of virgin secret ritual where u do not see anything but "virgin family, virgin flair, virgin spirit" i know VS is a brainwashing machine but come on!!!!!

Viewfrom5Bells

5th Jan 2008, 21:05

leisurelad

5th Jan 2008, 22:07

Well guys, having read this thread with much interest, as with any company, if things are that bad, look elsewhere. I mean, you can allways go and work for easyjet working 6 days on 3 days off quite often 4 sector days seeing madrid airport for 30 mins. They probably don't earn much more than you guys, if anything.

Virgin is virgin and to be honest should not be compared to other airlines. I don't know many airlines that you can just swap trips willy nilly and plan your roster around how you wish to live. My housemates roster is 4-5 trips a month, quite often only ends up doing 2 or 3 by swapping and using the system to their advantage.

You guys get to travel the world and have seen and done things most people will never get the chance to do. Whilst living in the virgin world (i dont care about anything else) which is quite common, just stop and think about how your way of life compares to many others the UK.

Before you all come down on me like a ton of bricks, just re read the above and think before replying. And no, i don't work for vigin but have been in aviation for many years and am fortunate enough to be in happy comfortable surroundings.

Take care and happy flying

vs_lhr

5th Jan 2008, 22:44

you can allways go and work for easyjet working 6 days on 3 days off quite often 4 sector days seeing madrid airport for 30 mins. They probably don't earn much more than you guys, if anything.

Actually, EasyJet earn about £5K+ more than VS crew on average, but as you point out, the lifestyle is totally different, so it's apples and oranges.

leisurelad

5th Jan 2008, 22:57

Thanks vs_lhr, didn't realise they earnt that much more but basic pay wise, i think is not much difference.

Personally i doubt the vs crew will end up with a good deal. The amount of money that is/has been spent with reprotecting passengers etc for the flights that they have cancelled so far, plus the extra money the crew will get who work on strike days probably equates to what a 2-3% pay rise is. I'm not sure on the actual figures so forgive me if it is way way out.

With that kinda money gone, if they do end up giving you a pay rise, im sure there will be many strings attached to it and costs will be scrutinised in every way. Crew Benefits will prob be the first to go.

Again, just re think about all the striking and what effect it will have in the long term.

:)

scoobydooo

6th Jan 2008, 01:01

What folks should remember is that a fuel hedges are about run about for most airlines and fuel will start to be bought at the equivalent of $100 per barrel. Fair chance of route reductions and redundancies by the end of the year by all but the most efficient airlines. Bad time to think about striking.

Doh, that will be the excuse for no payrise in 2008 then !:ugh: A long term plan needs to be put in place, otherwise things are going to get worse every year, imagine the rapid rate of crew phoning in sick and productivity and customer experience declining it wont be long before the comapny name turns to mud, vflyer is already full of bad experiences as morale declines at a rapid rate. I hope the company can see this. By not offering a deal this year I think would be as fatal if not more damaging in the long run financially than the strike action alone.

A deal now with a plan moving forward, otherwise things will get a whole lot worse for passengers, revenue, crew, managers - in short, everyone.

Failing a deal I am more than happy to support the union and crew by continuing and accepting more strike dates, take it to half term I say if the company wont sit and talk and offer us an acceptable deal . There wouldnt be much point in staying at virgin if the crew dont support the union as over the next few years things will be terrible, the terribleometer will go off the scale for everyone. :(

scoobydooo

6th Jan 2008, 01:27

frangipans posts are fantastic, ah... to have a command of the english language like that !!:)

greigok

6th Jan 2008, 07:11

Funny scooby how ur so confident about strikes and yet you have not commented on Paul Powell an old ex chair of the union reps standing down.

Im afraid if this carries on where the crew with the biggest mouths are saying there going to strike and then there mailing the union and texting them saying it's not worth it....well think it's going to fall to pieces. You will have no union reps then.

Perhaps u shld be a union rep urself!

But try commenting on Paul's post who has been here probably alot longer than you. If you want to have a argument have it with him.

The 2nd strike will not go ahead..as most will go to work for the first.

Don't bother coming back with any childish insults either.

Cheers

scoobydooo

6th Jan 2008, 08:58

Greigkok

I haven't really got time or the inclination to comment on every post here, neither do I wish to 'argue' with any poster as you put it, I will however debate and discuss issues.

As for becoming a rep, I am toying with the idea and was just yesterday wondering what I would put in my manifesto.

Stating, that the 2nd strike wont go ahead as the first will be full of strike breakers is speculation, nothing more, nothing less.

I always try and look at a situation from all perspectives, a few posts back I put the "company hat" hat on and looked at what they are trying to achieve and possible ways in doing this. I dont pretend to have all or indeed any of the answers but we both know that it take both sides willing to negotiate if there will ever be any progress made. We must ask ourselves do we think both sides are prepared to talk at the moment ? I for one know the union is prepared to avoid passenger disruption and its' doors are open, however it would appear the company is not and is more than happy to disrupt the passengers by engaging in a game of 'hardball'.

So with all the best will in the world if the union made some radical changes improving communication with its members and all sorts of other things, it would be a lot of wasted resource if the company has no intention whatsoever in actually trying to fix any of the many problems that exist, I haven't even heard the company acknowledge there are any problems to us directly or through the union, a bit like an ostrich with its head buried deep.

Paul, I thank you for all your efforts over the years and the work you have put in to help the union achieve the recognition it has to date. You are clearly a man of integrity which is why you felt that you could not suddenly change your tune, trying to convince and recommending people accept the offers put forward by the union (even if perhaps you didn't agree with them personally, but as a rep had to tow the union line), then having to stand at the same checkin and say to the same faces now is the time to strike.

Paul may I ask if it shocked you the outcome to the last pay vote ?

Paul has also indicated that circa 1000 members did not cast a vote in all 5 votes, from this we could almost say that it is the 'norm' to have 1000 votes abstaining from voting for whatever reason and as such should maybe discount/write these off from our overall interpretations of the outcome. Whilst this is enormously frustrating for everyone we can learn from this, and moving forward try to engage the importance of every single voting right to our members through more regular communications, it is only through educating and informing the union members how important their votes are and that they will actually make a difference that things will change, otherwise it will be the norm to have circa 1000 votes non returned for ever more.

As for Paul being approached by members who said they will vote for industrial action, whilst also indicating they will come to work, I am disappointed. However that said after all sorts of rumours that certain influential parties were being offered cash to try and get a company favourable outcome of the vote perhaps people felt the path of least resistance was to say they will be going to work.

Who knows, only time will tell and come 3 days time we can stop speculating and will know what the real picture is. I still feel that the company stating to pax and press that only 3 of its services will be disrupted is setting itself up for a fall, if 4 services are disrupted does that make the company look silly? never mind 5,6 10 etc etc

Paul, what impact do you feel there will be on the union and any future negotiations and union representation moving forward if crew do not stick together and carryout the strike dates ? editeded to add Indeed do you agree with the strikes or is it a further reason for your resignation ?

Paul, I wish you all the best and if you would like to p.m. to discuss feel free.

I further refer people to the post vs_lhr made pointing to http://www.v-flyer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22443&whichpage=12 (http://www.v-flyer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22443&whichpage=12) frankipans pots on v-flyer explaining clearly the errors of ways both sides have made in this whole debacle.

greigok

6th Jan 2008, 09:29

Thanx for the response. I do actually think it will just be the three flights affected. If indeed it is though, then the 2nd strike will more than likely not go ahead.

But will have to wait and see, not long to go now anyway.

Cheers Scooby

back2front

6th Jan 2008, 09:41

Maybe VS needs to stop expanding its network and get back to basics. You only have to look at V-Flyer to see that VS can't get the small things right:

Broken UCS seats
Crap food
Lack of choice of bad food
Non existant freedom menu
Dirty cabin
crap amenity kit
not even bothering to load the crap amenity kit

and I'm adding:
Unedible food in economy (sometimes can't even tell what it is supposed to be)
Running out of drinks in economy and warm drinks (why can't VS refresh the bars on turnaround? other airlines manage to)
Very poor on time performance.
Stop overpromising as invetiably we can't provide what is shown in the ads.

Its become embarrasing and a group needs to be set up by the company to overlook where and why things are going wrong.

A quick calculation:

VS have ordered 15 787 aircraft at a list price of £75million each, no doubt they will get a discount but based on £75m / 4000 staff thats £18750 per staff member. If they cancelled a 787 VS could afford to pay a £390 per month Gross increase over 4 years. This would bring us inline with BA and some of the charter airlines.

Maybe I'm just being naive but cancelling one aircraft order could solve the pay problem and slowing expansion could solve the problems blighting the passengers and crew on a daily basis.

greigok

6th Jan 2008, 09:46

Bring in you line with BA i don't think so..like it has been said so many times on here...do not compare yourself to BA. VS is the only airline that just does long haul. You have no one to compare it to.

greigok

6th Jan 2008, 09:49

V-Flyer only covers a small % of passengers.

Plus if it is so bad for passengers...it's bizarre they keep winning all the passenger awards for a british carrier, so they must be doing something right.

virgin6670

6th Jan 2008, 09:54

Thankyou for your comments its very kind of you.
I would like to say first the Reps are still committed to finding a resolve to this problem and are committed 100%. The problem is the damage this has had on relationships between the crew and the company.
These bridges will be hard to mend but I am confident that over time both sides will find common ground.
The company have taken the onboard the feeling out on line. Bothsides have made mistakes and have learnt harsh lessons from this. At the end of the day the Reps are crew and put in alot of effort to try and improve the conditions and pay for the crew regardless of their membership status everyone benefits from the reps commitment and persistence. As they said Rome was not built in a day. I know that the crew feel that there was a lack of communication from the Union and this maybe true. but the crew must put their full trust in their elected Reps or stand for election themselves.
It is a thankless task when thing are going great no one comments but when they go wrong the blame game starts.I am happy to talk to anyone about thing at any time.I do not like to take part in these forums on line as I feel they can be counter productive.
My hope is that we can all move on from this and continue to improve thing for the crew through open and honest talking.
regards
Paul
P.S please forgive any spelling or grammer mistakes

greigok

6th Jan 2008, 10:01

Hi Paul,

Can i just ask, if the first strike fails to make an impact on the first two days then does the next one still go ahead?

Cheers

vs_lhr

6th Jan 2008, 10:16

V-Flyer only covers a small % of passengers. The ones that go away to a five star hotel that find anything to complain about.

greigok, we're normally batting for the same side on here, but on this one I have to disagree. Yes, V-Flyer is a small % of passengers, but it is our frequent flyers (not necessarily just 5 star ones), and certainly the largest passenger voice we have anywhere - so we ignore them at our peril.

I have found that V-Flyer visitors complain only when there is justification. When you see a passenger just having a moan (we see them everywhere - normally first time posters who want to complain because they had to pay for an exit row, or an aircraft went tech and they want to know why they shouldn't be upgraded from Y to J on the very next flight plus compensation). Those posters get short shrift from their peers on V-Flyer. Yes, they can be picky at times, but I think for the most part, they are just identifying one of our biggest problems - consistency in service delivery.

Unlike most of us, who are posting here because our common interest is our employer, on V-Flyer they are bothering to post through brand loyalty. That would suggest they are more inclined to champion our product rather than complain about it. They want VS to succeed, and they want VS to improve. I wouldn't say they are perfect, but they are our passengers and if we are savvy we should be embracing their thoughts (rather than slagging them off, which I've noticed occasionally on cc.com)

greigok

6th Jan 2008, 10:18

Cheers VS LHR :)

virgin6670

6th Jan 2008, 10:19

I am not sure what will happen but I do hope things get sorted out soon.

regards
Paul

vs_lhr

6th Jan 2008, 10:35

Maybe I'm just being naieve but cancelling one aircraft order could solve the pay problem and slowing expansion could solve the problems blighting the passengers and crew on a daily basis.

Sorry to say, I think that may be naïve. I doubt VS just writes a cheque when they acquire new aircraft, in fact, I think most are leased, aren't they? The money that pays for aircraft comes from the revenue that aircraft generates. If you have one less aircraft, that's less money coming in. None of our aircraft are spares, afterall.

regularpassenger

6th Jan 2008, 10:59

Maybe I'm just being naieve but cancelling one aircraft order could solve the pay problem and slowing expansion could solve the problems blighting the passengers and crew on a daily basis.

I think you only buy an aircraft if you can make money out if it, therefore adding to the profitability of the company. If you don't buy the aircraft, less profit in the pot for salaries.

I read v-flyer (although not a frequent flyer and I always go Y) but just to echo what vs_lhr said, I think its all pretty constructive over there and they are all brand loyal to VS. Good experiences are also discussed.

Anyways...thread creep!

RP

VCCM

6th Jan 2008, 11:02

Plus if it is so bad for passengers...it's bizarre they keep winning all the passenger awards for a british carrier, so they must be doing something right.

halllooohhahhhh !!! Yes the prodcut is good and we win awards, and what makes up a large portion of the product and experience. The company employees.

"Employee relations" !?

I agree with VSLHR, dont brand v-flyers users, of the most the majoity of them seem very level headed and rational and pay ALL OUR wages and sympathise with our conditions.

back2front

6th Jan 2008, 11:14

greigok (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=209507) - well BA long haul crew get paid far more than we do. My BF works for them and clears up to £2500 per month. And he only does long haul so we do have something to compare with as VS crew only do long haul. He also works less trips than I do as they get at 3 least days off after an east coast trip. Same job but more than double the pay.

greigok

6th Jan 2008, 11:17

How many aircraft and crew do BA have at lhr and how many routes do they fly.

Then compare that to Virgin...look at th profits BA make..oh and then you can see why they get more money.

I have a friend that does long haul lhr and they get at least 5 trips minimum and most just two days off afterwards.

If you joined your bf at BA then you would have a great combined take home pay.

back2front

6th Jan 2008, 11:20

Greigok-
I have a friend that does long haul lhr and they get at least 5 trips minimum and most just two days off afterwards.

Your friend must just be going back and forward ro DXB, BOM and DEL then because they are the only trips that I know of that generate a 2 day MBTR. East coast US trips always 3 day MBTR, West coast 4 day MBTE.

And if Branson didn't use dodgy accounting to hide profits then VS would be shown to be making a huge profit. I was told this by a union rep and believe what he said. Maybe thats why SQ want out of the deal?

greigok

6th Jan 2008, 11:22

Nope they do east coast alot of the time.

My question is to you then...why not join ur bf at BA?

greigok

6th Jan 2008, 11:24

Also you have not answered how many aircraft BA have compared to Virgin and also the amount of routes...if there the same as Virgin ....then ur right you be on equal amounts of pay.

So please compare them.

Btw im not having a go.

Cheers

back2front

6th Jan 2008, 11:25

Not going to bother arguing with you anymore.

BA AGREEMENTS STATE EAST COAST TRIPS ALWAYS GENERATE 3 DAY MBTR

greigok

6th Jan 2008, 11:26

Was not arguing..but you avoided the main question.

Thanx

back2front

6th Jan 2008, 11:39

BA approx 118 long haul aircraft

VS approx 38 long range aircraft

BA profit £438m net thats including a $300m fine = approx £3.5m net profit per aircraft

VS profit less than £10m = approx £263,157 per aircraft.

I haven't included BA's short haul operation as I don't have the figures but its a massive discrepenancy in per aircraft profits. Why is this so when VS pay its staff far, far less and the onboard is generally inferior (cheaper)?

Someone should be taking a very close look at the current management at VS.

greigok - maybe should not have used the word arguing but I know the MBTR is correct as I see his roster every month (its next to mine on the fridge!!)

greigok

6th Jan 2008, 11:47

We are not arguing just debating..thanx for finding that out.

All i was getting at is that's the reason BA pay there crew more and if your bf gets about 2500 after tax then thats over 30,000 grand a year and more than most office managers.

I do agree VS need to pay there crew more money and 8.9% into total was a good start all be it over two years. The next pay rise would of been debated this April anyway.

But thanx for replying!:)

back2front

6th Jan 2008, 12:16

Its not £2500 every month, usually around the £1900 mark including allowances, long range box payments etc. Still alot more than me. Thats why we have a couple of properties and 2 nice cars.

I'm starting to feel the company could self implode. In the past Virgin staff have always been proud to work for the company and defended it rigorously.

I'm now seeing crew onboard bagging the company and especially RB, that never happened a few years ago and if the workforce is so disengaged there is definatley major problems ahead.

Shanwick Shanwick

6th Jan 2008, 12:23

Is there an alternative cabin crew union to Unite for those who wish to tend their resignation before this shambles begins?

scoobydooo

6th Jan 2008, 12:28

Not one that is recognised by the company as far as I am aware. Perhaps Balpa should have a siter company, good way to make revenue. Imagine one union representing the pilots and cabin crew, the force would be <americanism> awesome !!:E

vs_lhr

6th Jan 2008, 12:33

And if Branson didn't use dodgy accounting to hide profits then VS would be shown to be making a huge profit. I was told this by a union rep and believe what he said. Maybe thats why SQ want out of the deal?

Please don't start dragging that old myth up again. It was laughable enough when WDMM tried to use it as a reason why VS are not paying more.

If there was anything 'dodgy' about Virgin accounting, you can be sure the independent auditors that the company are obliged to engaged would have spotted it. Companies cannot hide cash away illegally - otherwise they end up like Enron. Can you imagine the publicity if Virgin was embroiled in anything even vaguely similar?

Don't spread dangerous rumours you have no evidence for.

Shanwick Shanwick

6th Jan 2008, 12:40

An alternative union wouldn't necessarily need to be recognised by the company just offer legal protection in times of need.

scoobydooo

6th Jan 2008, 12:41

yeah it's old school like the BA VS argument, however you must admit a private company can do a lot lot lot more clever accounting than a plc which is open to public scrutiny.

Morning vs-Lhr :)

scoobydooo

6th Jan 2008, 12:44

It would need to be recognised if it was to be able to represent and negotiate on behalf of the crew. Likewise IPA cover you guys in time of need but the majority choose Balpa and the company have recognised to negotiate on the pilot work forces behalf, no point joining a union that is not recognised by the company as being able to negotiate on your behalf ?

vs_lhr

6th Jan 2008, 12:45

yeah it's old school like the BA VS argument, however you must admit a private company can do a lot lot lot more clever accounting than a plc which is open to public scrutiny.

Morning vs-Lhr

Morning, Scooby. :)

Private companies may not have publish quite as much detail as a public company, but they are still obliged to report everything in their accounts; and those figures have to balance. You can't simply syphon off funds elsewhere - the tax man would have something to say about that, and a company the size and profile of Virgin would be foolish to say the least to even consider it.

sign-it-to-your-room

6th Jan 2008, 12:51

Just noticed that there are no master rosters for January. Thats good of the company to preserve peoples anonomynity (oh cant spell that word!).

Sk1high

6th Jan 2008, 13:06

I've read this site for a long time and never felt the need to make a posting until now.
When I joined Vaa in 1994, like many others I thought it would be for a year or two of fun and then I would return to a "profession". I took the drop in salary etc. for the life style. Now as a part time single parent Fsm, flying is my profession. I manage to support my family with the help of Working family tax credit. The pay deals that were offered would have made no difference what so ever to my monthly income as the WFTC would have just been reduced. I am not alone in my situation.
Throughout the ballot process I voted no. The main thing I wanted to see was increments within my rank. I have no wish to go into the office and I stiil feel I have a lot to offer online. As a manager of upto seventeen crew with five years experience in rank I feel I'm not asking for too much.
When speaking to Vaa management I was informed the company offered increments to senior ranks and it was rejected. When talking to Amicus reps I was lead to believe it was the company who rejected increments.
Throughout the last year, due to the mishandling of the situation by both sides, I have just become more disillusioned with both Vaa and my union.
When I received the ballot paper for strike action the decision to reject a strike was not an easy one to make. I could not in good conscience vote for something that I felt would be to the detriment of all concerned.
For all of the postings of "what ifs" and "should haves" on this site and others lets not forget the most important thing. The small number of our friends and colleagues who are rostered trips on Wednesday and have to make the difficult decision on what their actions will be. I hope whatever they decide it is a personal informed choice, and not because of pressures brought by either side.

Right Way Up

6th Jan 2008, 13:37

VS LHR. The Balpa presentation for pay talks a few years ago covered much of this mythical accounting. I believe the figure was something in the region of £800 million. It may well of been hogwash, but the flight deck did get a large payrise that year! :ooh:

scoobydooo

6th Jan 2008, 13:41

further to sky1highs post, if you are still not sure what to do or even feel you have no choice if you are not a union member remember that you can still join the union online at any time http://www.amicustheunion.org/default.aspx?page=3136 (http://www.amicustheunion.org/default.aspx?page=3136)

If you do so it will cost you £10 and then you have an option and are protected by the same legal rights as other union members if you do decide to strike.

Having the option might make the decision easier rather than feeling there is no option.

adam7125

6th Jan 2008, 14:25

On the topic of Paul...

What a top geeza. Had my best ever trip with him as FSM and i totally respect everything he has done as a representative for crew.

( Fancy some ***n cheese Paul... ? :ok: )

back2front

6th Jan 2008, 15:44

vs_lhr you said 'I doubt VS just writes a cheque when they acquire new aircraft, in fact, I think most are leased, aren't they? The money that pays for aircraft comes from the revenue that aircraft generates. If you have one less aircraft, that's less money coming in. None of our aircraft are spares, afterall.'

I know VS have leased a few aircraft in the past, definately the first two 747 classics were leased. They have also leased from martinair in later on. But they own aircraft now and have 'buying rights' on 787 so that must mean they will be buying them straight from Boeing albeit making use of amortization.

I stand to be corrected if this is incorrect.

Oh yes, Paul is definately a top FSM :ok: Whats it time for Paul? Hot, steaming coffee :D

KevlarLHR

6th Jan 2008, 15:58

coolhandlu
The crew are not the only vital part of the organisation. There are a miriad of critical jobs done by dedicated people, many of whom earn less than crew, without which there wouldn't be an airline. Without Engineering there wouldn't be any planes for you to fly on. Without the Contact Center there wouldn't be sufficient passengers to fly on them. Without the IT systems we wouldn't be taking any bookings OR payment for bookings. The list goes on and on and on.

Tom Sawyer
And as an aside, if one of my "team" doesn't turn up for whatever reason, the rest of us do not get a compensation payment, but still have to cover that persons work and it is "front line" and so also could affect pax service and schedule.

I've been reading this thread as it goes along with "interest", and I have to say I'm becoming more and more disillushioned with some of the postings. I couldn't agree more with both Coolhandlu and Tom Sawyer. This mess won't just affect the crew - it will affect EVERYONE in Virgin. And at the end of it, everyone stands a chance of not getting any form of payrise this year and that includes the crew. There's continual reference to being crew down, crew down payments, differing allowances on different routes, payments for this payments for that and so it goes on. It seems that those hellbent on striking have the needle over the offer of money being paid to crew who will work when the strike is on, calling it a "bribe" - yet isn't that a similar kind of thing that you're asking for with trip pay on certain routes? Everyone has to work doing things they don't like, work short staffed, not get a regular break, go to places they don't like yet those on the ground don't stand there with their hands out asking for extra money. If the sickness rates are so high, then maybe those crew need to be asked if they have some form of medical or other problem, or do they just enjoy stiching fellow crew up/can't be bothered to come in to work.

There is no secret pot of money despite what you may think. You guys need to get back round the negotiating table and sort it out before things get even worse. Shoot me down in flames if you like for what I've said above, but that's my opinion.

vs_lhr

6th Jan 2008, 16:14

I know VS have leased a few aircraft in the past, definately the first two 747 classics were leased. They have also leased from martinair in later on. But they own aircraft now and have 'buying rights' on 787 so that must mean they will be buying them straight from Boeing albeit making use of amortization.

Well, we know the financial details will always be company confidential. Neither the airline nor the manufacturer wants the details of any deal being made public as it compromises their position for future bargaining. One thing we do know is that Virgin isn't in a position to write a cheque for the full value of the aircraft up front, so their has to be some kind of financing going on to enable the purchase. Much like US Airways has a huge loan from Airbus which finances their purchase of a large number of their aircraft.

Whatever the deal is, the thought of cancelling an order for an aircraft makes that money available to fund pay rises is without substance since the money doesn't exist unless the aircraft is flying and generating the revenue.

back2front

6th Jan 2008, 16:22

Thats why I mentioned amortization vs_lhr. But still if the company aren't making profit from their existing aircraft (38) or as the case may be only a small profit then the best thing to do would be hold back on expension of fleet and/or routes and work towards resolving the situation, as I said before back to basics.

Once each aircraft is returning a better profit then look at expanding. No point in purchasing more aircraft if its not a good ROI.

And the money saved in loan payments could then go towards keeping the staff happy thus helping the company make more money.

RB once said 'Keep the staff happy, they will keep the customers happy and they will keep the business going'. If only he and the rest of the management worked on that philisophy we wouldn't be in the sh*t now.

KevlarLHR

6th Jan 2008, 16:29

Virgin Atlantic is a business and not some big hoolie in the sky. Things weren't good before 9/11 and since then the belt has got even tighter. Everyone has to knuckle down and get on with the job I'm afraid. How do management keep the staff happy - by caving into every single demand? It's just not possible. Yes we'd all like more money, and putting aside those madhatter theories about dodgy accounting, if it ain't there we can't have it.

vs_lhr

6th Jan 2008, 16:32

the best thing to do would be hold back on expension of fleet and/or routes

That, of course, is a matter of opinion and decisions like that I leave to those with more experience in running an airline.

Personally I still think Virgin is a small airline with much of the world left to exploit, and we lose business on certain routes where we don't offer enough flights to our competition who have more daily options.

However you may get your wish if the strike goes ahead and the company decides to downsize the operation to reduce costs. That, unfortunately, also means reduced headcount commensurate with that size business.

Fournier Boy

6th Jan 2008, 17:02

I know VS have leased a few aircraft in the past, definately the first two 747 classics were leased. They have also leased from martinair in later on. But they own aircraft now and have 'buying rights' on 787 so that must mean they will be buying them straight from Boeing albeit making use of amortization.

I stand to be corrected if this is incorrect

You need to be corrected then, a few of the A343s are owned by Virgin, however the majority are owned by a leasing company based in LA. If you don't believe me, go on board a 747 and look on the Flight Deck crew rest door, or on an Airbus, on the wall in the flightdeck.

What the 787 deal is I've no idea.

Its pretty pointless stating something that isn't correct and then asking to be corrected.

back2front

6th Jan 2008, 17:10

FB then you should have posted before when someone asked whether VS own or lease aircraft.

Obviously both then. :ugh:

scorpion2111

6th Jan 2008, 17:33

And guess who owns the leasing companies for VA aircraft?

vs_lhr

6th Jan 2008, 17:38

And guess who owns the leasing companies for VA aircraft?

Who? Surely it isn't a subsidiary of Virgin Atlantic, since any other company would be entirely irrelevant.

scorpion2111

6th Jan 2008, 17:48

vs_lhr

6th Jan 2008, 18:28

Yes, that's right other companies within or subsiduaries of the Virgin Group. That's why VA can say they only make approx £6 million profit cos the other Virgin or SRB owned companies have creamed their profit off first.

SRB and/or the Virign Group have amassed their fortune this way - clever accouting - it's what all good businesses do.

Who exactly is this leasing company that Virgin Group own? That's a new one on me.

BTW, If one Virgin Group company sells products to another Virgin Group company, that is perfectly legal and above board. Do you believe companies that Virgin Group has an interest in should sell it products to one another at zero cost? Because they are all separate companies, and have different investors, they must act as separate entities.

And again there's repeated allegations of embezzlement for which there is no evidence other than hearsay and a desperate wish that it would be the case so your case against Branson is stronger. If you distrust your employer so much, I suggest you leave. I have very little tolerance for someone who calls the boss a thief, and various other insults. Sir, you show no respect.

scorpion2111

6th Jan 2008, 19:19

I have not suggested that anyone is a thief nor have I said this kind of practic is wrong. I am suggesting that this is another reason why VA can show such little profit for such a large turnover.

vs_lhr

6th Jan 2008, 19:25

I have not suggested that anyone is a thief nor have I said this kind of practic is wrong. I am suggesting that this is another reason why VA can show such little profit for such a large turnover.

Please provide some evidence of your allegations, otherwise I will have to assume they are untrue.

Can you also supply the name of the leasing company which is supposed to be owned by the Virgin Group, or is that more fabrication?

Jcdcon

6th Jan 2008, 19:52

This really is descending into a farce - he said, she said banter with little or no foundation. Nor, in general, with any ability to take the blinkers off and see things from another perspective.

To answer a suggestion from a few posts back - there is another route to take regarding crossing the picket line. Walk with head held high, assured of the belief that you are doing the correct thing, for you. I have zero qualms about going to work, offering my services, and feeling quite content that it is the correct thing for me to do. Suggestions that I will be an outsider on future trips, will be sipping my beer in bar alone etc are met with derision and deserve little more comment than that.

I don't understand why people are striking, but I respect your democratic right to do so. Be adult and respect mine to go to work, minus the rumour mongering about how sad my life will be downroute.

BY_boy

6th Jan 2008, 19:59

well said JCDCON :D

scoobydooo

6th Jan 2008, 20:09

vs_lhr

I think scorpion is just highlighting what is a very common business practise. If I have "UK LTD A" with many employees and "Overseas LTD B". "Overseas Ltd B" charges "Uk Ltd A" for services rendered, however because "Overseas Ltd B" is the best in its field in the whole world its services come at a premium in comparison to any other and as such considerably more expensive than "Different Overseas Ltd" or "Different UK Ltd B".

It is a common practise used and a legal way (just) to reduce the profit made by one company "on paper". There is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance, the former being what I think scorpion is alluding too, nothing dodgy, nothing illegal just that one way to reduce costs/tax.

Regards

warkman

6th Jan 2008, 20:21

Well
Why not just check about ownership here before making assumptions over ownership. As you can see, all owned by VA but some chartered?
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=G-VXLG

Jcdcon

6th Jan 2008, 20:38

Warkman,

Based on searching the A/C regs I think a few are owned by VAA but the majority are chartered ie leased by VAA and the holding comp is based in the US

virgin6670

6th Jan 2008, 20:51

I would like to thank all of you for your kind comments.they have picked me up no end.
I will not post anymore comment on this site but look forward to flying with you all
regards
paul:ok:

vs_lhr

6th Jan 2008, 21:29

I think scorpion is just highlighting what is a very common business practise. If I have "UK LTD A" with many employees and "Overseas LTD B". "Overseas Ltd B" charges "Uk Ltd A" for services rendered, however because "Overseas Ltd B" is the best in its field in the whole world its services come at a premium in comparison to any other and as such considerably more expensive than "Different Overseas Ltd" or "Different UK Ltd B".

It is a common practise used and a legal way (just) to reduce the profit made by one company "on paper". There is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance, the former being what I think scorpion is alluding too, nothing dodgy, nothing illegal just that one way to reduce costs/tax.

As usual, my friend, you present the argument a little more coherently. However, the difference in this situation is that company A is owned by companies 1, 2 & 3, and company B is owned by companies 1 & 4. Any syphoning off of cash will no-doubt lead companies 2, 3 & 4 to ask serious questions about where their profits are. Legitimate business between two companies with similar investors is one thing; attempting to move large wedges of cash from one entity to another without a proper business transaction is likely to raise eyebrows at both the tax office and the other investors. There seems to be a lot of accusations of this, but no evidence.

This is, however, a mute point, because Virgin do not own ILFC or GECAS or any of the other aircraft leasing companies.

Fournier Boy

6th Jan 2008, 22:55

FB then you should have posted before when someone asked whether VS own or lease aircraft

Unlike some people, I do not live on the internet all the time. Just because I've got better things to do than sit in front of a computer, shouldn't be a reason to make smarmy comments.

Why not just check about ownership here before making assumptions over ownership. As you can see, all owned by VA but some chartered?

Nope again this is wrong. GINFO is a list of who aeroplanes are Registered to, not nescessarily who owns them. Virgin may have G-V whatever registered to them, but that does not mean they own that airframe.

As for the name of the leasing company who owns the Virgin Aircraft, my memory is not that good, but its definately Los Angeles based.

016FSM

6th Jan 2008, 22:58

Just returned from a flight, here's some of what happened!

Flt met by ground staff member wearing budgie hoop earrings and mini skirt so short it could have been a belt, and a red chequered bomber style jacket with a big furry hood.

Both sectors we had problems with catering, not enough of it to go around in both J and Y, numerous IFE problems, broken dvd players, special meals not loaded, reading lights not working, uniq pax given wrong seats and limo didn't turn up, onboard 'phones not working, crew down and a toilet blocked off. Chocka flights both ways. On return to LHR, no ground staff to meet a/c when we arrived and waited nearly an hour for the last 2 wchr pax to be taken off.

Ho hum, just another day's work apologising and trying to put things to right so pax enjoy their flight!! But you know what, as we disembarked o/b and i/b, there was nothing but compliments about the crew. What a shame SRB doesn't appreciate us as much as the pax do!! With all the odds stacked against us and so many things going wrong, pax were still full of praise for the crew and they worked flat out both ways and with all the doom and gloom and morale at an all time low, they still gave 101% to the company, and all of the crew on my flight were supporting the strike including the IFBT!!

Since SRB's letter, many many more crew have decided to support the strike. That letter was like adding fuel to the fire, it has put so many people's back up! What a diplomatic move that was!!

Kasual Observer

6th Jan 2008, 23:45

I'm sorry I feel the need to post this because I and many of my colleagues do believe that you deserve better terms and conditions than you have at the moment. However, reading the last salvo of posts, many of you should really educate yourselves a little bit better rather than spout off with opinions about the company which show you up to be little more than loudmouths with no comprehension of how business operates.

You would do well to remember the old adage of "better to keep your mouth shut and have everyone think you are a fool rather than open it and prove beyond a doubt that you really are one". To read some of the assumptions in the above posts about how Virgin lease or own their aircraft and how money is moved between companies in the same group is enough to fuel a 13 week comedy series on TV.

If this is the level of support and intelligent thought [sic] that the strike has then you have lost before you begin. No wonder you have such a dismal prospect ahead of you if, collectively, you can't put together a coherent argument as to why you are actually striking after the company twice had an agreement with your union reps for a deal. Now there is nothing on the board and all we read is squeals of hope that something, anything, will be put on the table by management.

The resignation of your ex head rep, whilst sad, is a little bit late. It should have happened after the first rejected vote in the agreement your reps had with the company. Still, better late than never. It's just sad that the rest of the team that got your aspirations so wrong don't see the need.

The management are confident that they re going to break this strike. No amount of gesturing by Scooby and other union die-hards is going to alter that fact. You have all been let down by incompetent reps and union leaders who have failed miserably to communicate with you all. Now you are left in limbo with a management, incompetent or not, who will revel in the misery your union has caused you. You were warned about agreeing to industrial action without the solid and overwhelming support of your membership.

You now need to let your union know what you think of their actions. The only way out of the current situation I can think of is if a few, sensible, level headed, individuals are prepared to stand up and be counted and call for a mass resignation from the union and to form a company representative council of cabin crew and approach the management with an offer of continued negotiations.

Assuming that they can muster at least 51% of the cabin crew workforce to leave the union and join a representative council then you may have some hope of salvaging something from this fiasco. Your position in terms of industrial relations has been set back at least 5 to 10 years and you need to organise yourselves a bit better than the pathetic "unite" union have!

Even if you could get around 60% to agree to have an elected company representative council and say 3,000 of you agreed to subscribe £5 a month, then you would get an income of £15,000 which would more than cover the cost of purchasing independent legal representation cover and for the hire of a decent negotiating consultant and some training for your elected reps. The only problem I see is that you don't have enough people with the guts and intelligence to step forward and take on this task.

Once again, you have our support for your demands for better terms and condition. You just don't have our support for the stupidity of the actions of your membership in deciding to engage in industrial confrontation without overwhelming support from your membership.

Good luck. You're going to need it.

super aviator

7th Jan 2008, 06:00

I have just thought of a solution for both the company and you cabin crew

Now you want more money and i suspect this is the root of the problem....

Company want more money also and cant afford to pay you your demands

So we need to meet somewhere in the middle.....

HHHmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Well lets take a leaf out of Ryainair's book..... I suggest a calender of a selected few crew.... (i would be available for selection and photo shoots)
Scantily clad and drapped over a belt loader and catering cart...... perhaps even holding aloft a picketers oil drum....

Sell it on board and online and you can have part of the proceeds to make up your money.....

They say charity starts at home

Right Way Up

7th Jan 2008, 06:35

Kasual Observer,
I brought up the question regarding accounting as I remember receiving a Balpa presentation after I left, which very clearly pointed at creative accounting and blew a hole in the myth that VS could not afford a payrise. Funnily enough Balpa secured a very good payrise. One further example of this is the purchase of the Alitalia -400s which having been acquired at a very low price ended up by being leased back to the company at very high rates. Its a shame the company acquired these and recruited 200 people without anywhere for them to fly to. Luckily for Virgin Sept 11 gave them an opportunity to sort themselves out.

interpreter

7th Jan 2008, 08:52

WARKMAN.
I think you will find most of VA aircraft are chartered. A rough check shows that of the first 20 aircraft on their list they only own TWO. The rest are ALL chartered - but I do not know who from. I couldn't be bothered to check the rest.

Huyin

7th Jan 2008, 09:27

Having watched the debate from afar & decided not to weigh into it initially, I now feel compelled to add my views as a non VS but industry employee.
The Scooby vs VSLHR match went to Scooby for creativity but to VSLHR for pragmatism (IMHO).I have followed this thread for some time & looking at the two contestants joining dates felt that the former could be a union plant & the latter a management plant. Well, Scooby advises he/she is not even a union member but the jury is still out on VSLHR, even as to whether his/her base is actually at LHR. He/She trots out some interesting figures so maybe I should just refer to them.
Actually the original figure covering operating profit was culled (by Scooby, I think) from a newspaper report & quoted £46.8Million. That figure does not seem to have been challenged by supporters of either side & much debate has gone on around it. Latterly, however, VSLHR has come up with a "profit" of £3 million, the disparity between it & the former figure being attributed by him/her to the Virgin Nigeria £40 million loss. Well surely Virgin , having only 50% of the shareholding , would only be hit for 50% ,or £20 million, of the loss?
Additionally , was this profit figure of £3million , a nett figure after the deduction of all indirect operating costs , or just a revised operating profit figure? If the latter ,then VS are losing money overall when all figures are taken into account. Perhaps you can clarify, VSLHR? One of your previous posts made it clear that an operating profit was not indicative of the final figure & set out to demonstrate why.Also, I have heard a figure quoted that relates to the profit made by VS on every £100 invested.It has not been quoted on this site but I wonder if VSLHR has it & could divulge it?? (Came from a Marketing & Sales Conference ,I think).If confirmed this would give a return on Investment (ROI) & could be compared to a Building Society ROI (circa 5-6%)
Now ,on to why I think VSLHR has the edge in this argument.
Scooby has come up with a number of suggestions which are well thought out ,not just in money terms ,but in terms of directing that money to obtain maximum advantage not just for CC but also for the management by cutting down sickness & recognising additional effort on the part of the remaining team when it occurs. However, Scooby has no platform from which he/she can advance these proposals. The CC are unhappy with the union, split over a decision to strike & facing a management which have withdrawn any offers & will fight any strike(s)
VSLHR has consistently said, "there is no money" to pay & I believe him/her.
Read back through the threads, dont just grasp the figure of £47million operating profit.Whether or not it is right or wrong, it does not paint the final picture, which must be worse.
Look at what Tom Sawyer(Engineer) said some time ago. The A346 fleet is just about competitive with the B777 given that Airbus are paying subsidies for it not meeting book performance figures. Well, that was before the latest set of restrictions which reduced the maximum zero fuel weight for a heavily loaded nose heavy aircraft (& they all are when full!). The net result is that cargo is often refused because of weight & balance considerations .(& cargo is worth what in terms of overall revenue VSLHR?? maybe 20-23%??).
Earlier I read on this thread that VS owned the A340-300s but leased the remainder. Well ,the first industry A340-300 has been parted for spares after a life of 10 years or so. This is like you trying to sell your car but realising no one wants it so you break it up & sell the bits. The remainder of the fleet can come from an in house lessor or the bigger companies such as ILFC or GECAS.If its in house ,then sometimes you,as the airline, buy from Mr Airbus directly at a discount as you are a good customer, sell back to an in house lessor at maybe nearer book value , then lease back with lease payments based on that value .You pay a higher lease rate but get to bank a lump sum from the transaction.(being the difference between buying from Airbus & selling on to the lessor).Do VS do it? Don't know ,but suspect not.Can you help VSLHR??.
So VS has the largest (leased?) fleet of A346s within aviation ,(I think) & they dont meet book specification. CX are getting rid of their 3 & even Etihad recently came up with a creative way of disposing of one! Not sure of the other carriers plans but there are no new orders for the A346
Then there was mention of the On Time Performance (OTP) with caustic comments quoting figures in the low teens system wide. Well, in the last month or so VS has hit the system wide OTP target of 50% once ,I believe. VSLHR, you can probably confirm?? Christmas Day?? with Boxing Day a near miss?? Oh yes, that cargo being refused travel due A346 performance, contributes to some of the delays.
Your other shareholder wishes to sell, but will probably have to take a book loss to get out (thats an assumption).
Maybe the above puts your problem into context , Scooby. Any strike will be a lose/ lose situation.The company won't pay & they will lose revenue from cancelled or disrupted flights.Any revenue loss will lower the Load Factor ,(VSLHR, do you have an overall system wide breakeven load factor??) but there will only be a very marginal saving on that lost revenue-the odd meal, some drinks , some sundries, but the checkin , loading, boarding,in flight service,cargo, engineering & the flight operation remains unaltered. The deficit comes straight off any profit margin,(if there is one)
So, my sympathies to Scooby & colleagues-I think some of you know this is looking like a lost cause. My congratulations to VSLHR ,but with one request.If you are able, take what you have gleaned from this thread to the (mis)management side & try to get them to recognise the pride & the esteem that most of their cabin crew still hold for their unique company. Surely its worth both sides rapidly getting together in house for informal talks on how to keep those elements at least,whatever the eventual cost?

KevlarLHR

7th Jan 2008, 09:27

Kasual Observer

You now need to let your union know what you think of their actions. The only way out of the current situation I can think of is if a few, sensible, level headed, individuals are prepared to stand up and be counted and call for a mass resignation from the union and to form a company representative council of cabin crew and approach the management with an offer of continued negotiations.

Huyin

If you are able, take what you have gleaned from this thread to the (mis)management side & try to get them to recognise the pride & the esteem that most of their cabin crew still hold for their unique company. Surely its worth both sides rapidly getting together in house for informal talks on how to keep those elements at least,whatever the eventual cost?

:D:D:D:D

Well said KO and Huyin, my sentiments exactly!

vs_lhr

7th Jan 2008, 10:03

Huyin,

I'm not management (nor do I suspect Scooby is a union 'plant'), so don't have access to some of the information you are after (such as the exact details of aircraft acquisition), and even if I did, it would company sensitive info that I would not dream of publishing on an internet forum. Questions about A346 performance figures are only marginally relevant to the question of striking, and perhaps we have already strayed too far off the core questions anyway with the volume of posts about aircraft purchase and leasing. The original suggestion was that you buy one less aircraft then you have several million available to pay crew pay demands, and the rebuttal is that the aircraft generates the income so without it you don't have the money in the first place. All the other discussion around that is pretty much pointless.

As for the figures, I refer to this news story in the FT (http://search.ft.com/ftArticle?queryText=virgin+atlantic&y=0&aje=true&x=0&id=070814000782&ct=0&nclick_check=1) dated 14th August 2007, which states retained profit at £6.6m and operating profit at £3.5m. Based on a turnover of £2.2bn, that is a pathetic return on investment, although the reasons cited included "increased price of fuel, the impact of the security alerts at Heathrow and administration costs arising from the government's decision to double air passenger duty from February". Without the Virgin Nigeria loss, the operating profit would have been £32.6m, which is still a tiny return on investment - and you'd be much better off putting you money in a building society.

BTW, I really don't see this as VSLHR vs Scooby. I have a lot of respect for Scooby, and we both work toward a common goal - the best airline we can possibly be. This discussion is purely thrashing out the positive and negatives of the current industrial action. Neither of us have much direct control over it, other than our opinions.

scoobydooo

7th Jan 2008, 11:34

Wow Huyin,

That's some serious reading, I scanned it first, then read it again and then again, so much information. Clearly 100's of pages of prune summarised :)

I dont really have time to respond in detail at the moment other than to correct you that I am a union member, however not a union representative.

The newspaper article you referred to was this one that cited different figures was this one http://allafrica.com/stories/200708210290.html (http://allafrica.com/stories/200708210290.html) which indeed states that VA have a 49% stake in Nigeria so losses would have been £20Mil (UK) $40m (US), The old story is archived now butthere is summary here from my old prune post http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3521311&postcount=92

What I did also note whilst searching for this archive (reason post is now longer), given the losses made in Nigeria last year and and how that dented our bottom line, it is interesting to note from that in November they announced to spend N101,375 Billion on new embraer aircraft,
24 aircraft, 10 to be supplied between Sep 2008 and 2011.
http://allafrica.com/stories/200711120989.html (http://allafrica.com/stories/200711120989.html)

The value of the confirmed 10 alone is 310 US Million !! and 800 Million if all options are exercised. http://finance.optimum.net/optonline?GUID=3769989&Page=MediaViewer&Ticker=ERJ (http://finance.optimum.net/optonline?GUID=3769989&Page=MediaViewer&Ticker=ERJ)

Of course this is not directly us, but we do have a 49% stake in the company, I guess it isn't doing all that badly after all, .. to declare losses of 80Million (US)last year, kindly giving us half those losses and buy 320 Million (US) worth of kit this year !! but I suppose it isnt loads given their revenue went from £1.88B the year before to £2.14B last year they are obviously doing okay. I wonder if they make a profit this year ?, I very much doubt it probably just another year of increased pax, increased revenue, new aircraft oh and a few more million out of the UK, oops I mean our bottom line becasue we own half {cynic}.

TightSlot

7th Jan 2008, 11:53

PPRuNe doesn't see this, or indeed any other thread as being personal i.e. an XXX vs. XXX discussion - it is instead a discussion of the issues arising from the upcoming strike(s).

As always, we strive hard to keep off the personal and play the ball not the player. It is worth pointing out that, so far at least, the Virgin Strike threads have been characterized by courteous, intelligent and informed debate between people that have widely different beliefs and hold very different positions. This has not always been the case with previous such threads with other airlines, and that this is to the credit of All thread contributors, on whatever side of the dispute, whether Cabin Crew or not.

:D

P.S. - Just a heads-up - sometime soon, with the first strike imminent, I'll close this thread and re-start a Mark III version: For housekeeping reasons only, as the topic may attract a lot of attention, and too long a thread can make this difficult.

The next 3-4 days may be difficult for many of you - So let's sign off the last few peaceful hours just as Dan Rather (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Rather) sometimes did - "Courage" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courage)

016FSM

7th Jan 2008, 12:37

However, due to the exceptional circumstances we are also seeking approval from the Civil Aviation Authority for minor reductions to our normal minimum crew complements.

Does the above statement by the company not show how desperate they are and does it also not show a massive disregard for the safety of our passengers?

The CAA have a recommendation in place for the minimum number of crew that should be on an aircraft and VS are now requesting for this to be reduced. How safe will passengers feel on an aircraft that is crewed by people who do not fly regularly and also that the minimum number of crew recommended by the CAA has been further reduced! I'm very very surprised that Virgin in prepared to compromise the safety of passengers and their own crew to operate a near normal schedule!!!

scoobydooo

7th Jan 2008, 12:48

Indeed 016FSM, however these days whilst we have safety as our first priority many of our passengers believe it is not the primary reason we are there (as has been discussed on a virgin dedicated website).

This is when the commander as s/he does everyday asks themselves, okay are we happy and are we safe? This happened in the recent Air France strikes because some of the pilots felt that the crew compliment was not safe and refused to go without adequate crew, a difficult call for anyone bowing to commercial pressure or marginal safety issues.

Monty Casino

7th Jan 2008, 12:49

I have read the 25 or so pages of this thread with interest and have watched both union and VS management turn up the pressure on the cabin crew in what sometimes seems to be akin to bullying and that is coming from both sides! There is a war of brinkmanship going on and both sides are catching the cabin crew in the crossfire.

What is about to happen at VS is the destruction of friendships, relationships and working practices that have been built up since Virgin despatched its first flight. Strikes put people against each other; friend against friend, colleague against colleague. When the situation is resolved the union guys and management will get back together and resolve their differences but will that happen between the crew members themselves? You bet it won't. Grudges will be borne, differences not forgotten and relationships destroyed. Strikes are hugely divisive especially in an environment where the operation depends on successful team efforts.

MAGICE asked about entering company premises during a strike - quite simply you are not allowed in them! If you do, you can be either construed as reporting for work or be removed as a trespasser. Similarly you cannot use your company provided parking pass or you may be re-charged for your parking since you have withdrawn your labour and have no right to use the company provided parking permit!

I have been involved strikes in other areas of the transport industry and there is never a winner since strike puts crew member against crew member simply because they feel differently about a common issue and be under no illusion, the differences about who did what will not be forgotten quickly.

My thoughts are with all those girls and boys who have worked hard to get their wings and who enjoy doing their job who now feel intimidated or pressured by what the union and management are doing. Don't be fooled, this is a game both sides want to win, the union because they have to look good to their members - how many paid union officials are foregoing their salaries in support of the strikers? Similarly the company want to beat the union into submission. Perhaps the cabin crew should represent themselves?

In a company that is so concerned with its public image and how it is perceived, instead of trying to save the planet and appear to be "environmentally friendly, Richard should try and save his staff and appear to be an "employee friendly" employer. If you treat your staff like S**t, your customers perceive your operation as s**t, treat them well, look after them and make them happy at work, then it will bring you even more customers.

Of course that used to be the whole ethos of Virgin Atlantic, sadly it seems to have disappeared amid much chest beating and non stop TV adverts for Virgin Holidays.

Richard, through these forums and those of V-Flyer and the media, VS's dirty washing is being hung out in public. The boys at Waterside will be laughing all the way to the bank! The only way forward is compromise - Both sides should call in ACAS now, get round the table and hammer an acceptable deal before you lose all your key account business customers to others and all the excellent work done by all your crews is destroyed because people are playing power games!