BA 15% pay cut

[Fluckbynight]

BA CHIEFS CUT THEIR PAY BY 15%
British Airways executives have agreed to cut their pay by 15%. They say it is a move to help the airline through difficult times in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks in the United States. Chief executive Rod Eddington, who suggested the move, will have his £525,000 basic salary cut by £78,000. All 12 executive directors have agreed to a 15% pay cut, while 600 senior managers are being asked to have their salaries reduced by 10%. BA, which earlier today announced cuts in flights and a 9% reduction in capacity, says it hoped to save £2 million in the current financial year through the salary savings. Mr Eddington said: "Taking a pay cut is the right thing for the most senior people in the business to do at this time. It is part of their contribution as leaders to helping BA through this most difficult of times." In a letter to managers, Mr Eddington said he was conscious how hard they were working to respond to the "extraordinary challenges" the airline industry was facing. "Asking you to accept a pay cut is not something I do lightly. However, I believe that it is the appropriate step for us to take at this time as a collective act of leadership." Starting salaries for senior managers is around £50,000. BA said there were no plans to ask other staff, such as pilots or cabin crew, to take a pay cut.

[Deadleg]

Did'nt I read that the boss of AA was going to work until X'mas for FREE. Would'nt expect Rod to do that but how will he manage on a meagre £400,000 odd + benefits...(pause while I dry my eyes).
BTW, where else could he go now?

[B747wideboy]

Pity poor Rod, he´s going to be looking for a job before very long.

Remember Ayling? All he ever really did wrong was sanction the tail-graffiti debacle but he was made the scapegoat for everything from the contraction of margins on the Atlantic market to the growth of low-cost competition and demonised for it all. BA´s troubles now make Ayling´s reign look pretty good in comparison....

[maxalt]

So I expect that having shown 'leadership' in taking a 15% pay cut they'll expect you troops to follow suit.

BA pilots, voluntary pay cut 15%?

[wooof]

600 hundred senior managers !!!!!!.

That seems a very large number, what do they classify as "senior"? Maybe they've accidently stumbled on one of their problems!

[Bigpants]

Spot on wooof what kind of an airline needs 600 Senior Managers? Answer a bureaucratic hierachical monster that no CEO has ever sorted out since it was a state run monolith.

What BA needs to do is dump 400 of its 600 "Senior Managers" and then start on the middle and junior managers.

When the ratio of staff/Managers/Passengers approaches that of its competitors then it might be in a position to survive.....even thrive!(Ryanair 1 member of staff per 6,ooo passengers flown last year, BA 650 pax per member of staff)
Regards Bigpants

[Desk-pilot]

Guys,

I'm happy to accept that there is bureaocracy in BA but I think you may be pointing the gun at yourselves before very long when comparing the 6000pax/1 staff at Ryan with the 600pax/1 staff argument at BA.

If you sacked every Manager/back room boy you'd still get nowehere near the 6000/1 ratio you quote so I think it's fair to say that those at the sharp end are likely to face similar pressures on their terms and conditions and productivity levels. I doubt that many Ryan Air pilots get paid the £140 000 pa so many of you enjoy.

Incidentally in reply to an earlier post Senior Management salaries at BA are considerably below those of the pilots and it takes until at least 35 and usually at least 40 to get there. Salaries start around 40k rising to around £80k.
I find it amusing that some of you quote a mobile phone and laptop as a perk - get real!! the mobile phone is a pain in the ass (so you can be on call anytime) and the laptop - jeez probably some 3 year old heap of junk which can just about run Office 95! That would be like me saying to you that getting SID charts is handy!

Managers get the same travel concessions Captains do (only they don't get to put their family in 'First' all the time when operating ;o)

They do also get healthcare so that when the stress of working a 60hr week 47 weeks a year finally catches up with them they get the best medical treatment possible!

I think there are many who feel the pilots have had it pretty good in BA for a long time - I recall an 8 day trip to Barbados with only a quick hop to St Lucia in the middle of the week - that's not exactly maximising productivity either is it??

Just trying to put some balance in here. It's a dreadful time for all of us in any airline - let's just hope that things start to improve soon for all our sakes...

Not exactly crying in my beer about Rod's pay cut though - the senior execs of these plc's are a bunch of nest featherers!

Desk-pilot

Desk-pilot

[Hugh Jorgen]

What about asking Ayling for some money back?

[The Guvnor]

I wonder how many of BA's Captains - almost all of whom earn more than management, as Desk-pilot describes above - will voluntarily offer to sacrifice 20% or so of their salaries?

Airline pay scales are grossly distorted. A captain's duties are commensurate with those of a senior manager; and those of an FO the same as a junior one - and those are the pay scales that should be employed. Indeed, a CSD/Purser should be earning slightly more than an FO due to their greater levels of responsibility.

One of the more positive opportunities that this current economic situation presents is the ability for airlines to address these issues and hopefully drastically restucture airline cost bases in order to ensure that the industry is much leaner, meaner, fitter and stronger.

[ 28 September 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

[Human Factor]

Desk-pilot,

I've worked for BA for three and a half years and I've yet to meet a Captain on £140k. Remember please that BA have fewer pilots per aircraft than any other major international carrier AND we get paid less for doing more work.

[snooky]

Good point Bigpants. If BA dump 400 Senior Managers it's still one per aircraft.

Desk-Pilot, I hope you're not posting from Waterworld when there's so much to be done.
Oops, sorry, a bit early for that, though many pilots will have been at work for hours by then.
Have you noticed that most Captains are also at least 35-40, and they did'nt get to start on £40k, and most don't earn over 80k.

[White Knight]

Guv, although a captain may have the same day to day type of responsibilities as a senior manager, when the **** hits the fan at FL330 I would say that there is no way you could possibly compare the two !!!! You obviously spend far to long tapping away on PPrune. There is a world outside the computer you know....
As for the CSD getting paid more than the FO, that is just plain stupid. The FO has far more responsibility than anyone back in the cabin. For one, they are trained PROFESSIONALS (unlike cabin crew - it doesn't take a great deal of nouce to open a door and direct people down a slide) and for another they are 2IC in every ops manual I've ever worked to. (after the skipper).
Then again, anyone who whinges about pilots salaries is usually just jealous - because it's something they can't do themselves.

Desk Pilot- I really wish it was £140k pa.
Obviously there's something in the air at Waterworld that distorts the mind ....
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Ace MCcoy]

Indeed, a CSD/Purser should be earning slightly more than an FO due to their greater levels of responsibility
Ahh, come on Guv!
Look at the training involved to get to there.
But Ok then, just make sure that, as soon as the Captain leaves the ship, and puts the FO in charge, that the meter starts counting Captain pay for the FO. ;)

[wallabie]

Guv

You should stop drinking that grog that obviously makes talk silly.
Where do you buy the stuff ??
Where do you find the time ? I keep bumping into your patronizing prose in basically every thread I dare to open. It's turning very very creepy you know ?

[Mike-Hunt]

Guv,

I actually think that you are a wind up merchant. No one in their right mind would think like you in this whole damned universe.
You're always on your own and you will always remain so.
I have never read a posting from you that made sense and you are terribly anti-pilot.
Why oh why do you choose to spend your entire life on this forum, just to kick out at flight crew is beyond comprehension.
You really are one sad idiotic case.

[Airbrake]

Guv,
Your comment that CSD's/Pursers pay should be more than a FO's is one of the most ridiculous comments I have seen for a while.
The Purser may well be at the coal face when it comes to dealing with the pax and presenting the company image etc. (A job I would not like to do for all the tea in China). But even on a normal sector a civil aircraft needs 2 pilots, they may not be that busy all the time but throw in a snag and some crap weather and then ask the 150 punters down the back who has the most responsible job!

[ptkraus]

One point missed by the Guvnor in the Purser-F/O debate is that money, like it or not, is representative of power. There are airlines, (of the two-tiered variety) that do have pursers being paid more than F/Os. In a necessarily hierarchical environment, this has led to misconceptions of power, with questionable results.

[jumbodriver]

guvnor,
you sir,are an idiot.
jumbo

[ptkraus]

One point missed by the Guvnor is that money very often seems to be seen as the equivalent of power. In airlines (mostly of the two-tiered variety)where senior pursers do earn more than junior F/Os, this has led to misconceptions of power - with questionable results.
Of course this must not be the ultimate argument for the payscales being 'upside up' but at least it will have to be treated as a reality.

[B clam]

Guv,

I was starting to believe that one or 2 things you mentioned had credibility and was reasoned arguement. However, your comment regarding pay/responsibility between FOs/CSDs has destroyed this conception completely. It is obvious now that you have absolutely no idea.

B clam

[thegirth]

In BA the CSD/Purser does indeed get paid more than the First Officer! (In many cases)

That should Guv. What a Tosser!

[wooof]

Guys'

Come on now, while I hate pull pprune seniority out of the hat it should be blatently obvious to all but the most recent ppruners by now that guv is a wind up merchant and as such sould be completely ignored.
To bite at many ridiculous statements that he spouts only enables him to post further idiotic statements there by getting him closer to his by now obvious target of 3000 posts.
Of course the powers that be could always reset his post counter to zero on completion of his 2999th post. :D
However the danger then becomes that he would attempt to achieve said 3000 posts again :eek:

[The Guvnor]

CSDs/Pursers have a great deal of experience under their belts and are fully responsible for the lives of all of their passengers - all the more so with the new security regs requiring flight deck to remain behind a locked door at all times. In the event of an emergency landing followed by a fire, the flight deck bods are first out through their own exits, leaving the crew to deal with the pax. Fair enough, but then the person/persons in charge of the cabin crew members should be suitably remunerated for it!

And of course their responsibility doesn't stop just with the passengers - they are also responsible for any monies collected through the sale of on board goods; catering, etc etc.

At the end of the day, the Captain is ultimately responsible for the aircraft and all on board, so no argument he has the most responsibility and should therefore be paid the most. But should he be paid any more than someone making decisions that affect the company's financial/commercial future? I can't see that. There are plenty of jobs that carry at least as much risk and involve as much training - for far less pay.

Let me put it this way - can anyone come up with an overwhelming argument against these comments - preferrably with facts to back up their position?

[Magplug]

Guvnor, please do us all a great service - Curl up and die.

[nexeuk]

guvnor - last week you recommended not to buy BA shares when they were around £1.15, within a few hours they had risen to £1.50 (today, 179p). I read you say CSD/Purser responsibilty comparable to FO - what on earth are you talking about?

I've read your posts over a period of time, and quite rightly are entitled to your own opinion. However, what really grates is that you speak in a tone that implies everything you say is a fact; and mainly, what I have noticed is that in fact you speak complete drivel. Your constant attack on pilots (and at the present time, quite distateful) underscores your joalousy and undermines your objectivity. Finally, the fact that you obviously spend your whole life on this forum, indicates that you are a seriously deranged freak. Suggestion - harness your bitterness and envy into a more worthy cause - I bid you farewell.

Desk Pilot - can I get the managers to work at the times I keep puttiing my body through and see if they need the extra days off? Longhaul flying is detrimental to my bodies health, I had some time off last year for an operation and the difference in well-being at the end of that was immense (no more feeling as if i'm on another planet, no more constant colds}. We fly to the hotspots of the world and we are the final barrier to any disaster (reponsibility and accountability) in an environment that does not always allow a meeting to resolve. All things considered I think that our pay is not very good (140k is the few, not the norm). I know many, many people earning more than myself. Finally, safety is a priority for everyone, and particurlary now, many of the public are petrified of flying - I think that they would like to know they have a couple of well paid professionals trying their best to get from A to B, not some monkey on wages they could get driving a cab instead.

Again guvnor - i've never in my life met a person with intelligence who can't see the vast differnce between our job and the cabin crew - what does that say about your intelligence?

[RVR800]

Guv

Will caledonian wings staff take a pay cut

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/pigflys.gif

Try not to be bitter.

There's a good chap.

[Secret Squirrel]

Desk Pilot

Just to clear up a small point that you mentioned concerning the 8 day Barbados trip. You should go to debating lessons because this ridiculous angle of attack you have chosen is an own goal, mate: Pilots do not make schedules; they fly them as organised by those who are hired to sit at a desk and dream of being anywhere but where they currently are. Neither can you use the FTL argument because the 777 does it in four days.

You obviously think that pilots have had it too easy for too long (indeed haven't you said as much?). Well, you're entitiled to your opinion, I s'pose, flawed as it is!

[Desk-pilot]

Secret Squirrel,

I think you mistake my sentiments. I do not feel that pilots have had it too good for too long - I realise it is a highly skilled and demanding job which puts considerable strain on both the body and family life and which thus commands a premium salary.

My argument is against those who feel that a professional Manager should have all their perks removed and their salary degraded because they're all a waste of space. I also made the point that of course there is waste and 'fat' in the back office but there also is at the sharp end. Surely you must all realise that this marks the start of an erosion of everyone's terms and conditions and is truly the thin end of the wedge.

If we're not very careful a few lunatics under Bin Laden are going to cause us all a great deal of heartache. I for one am extremely angry about what they have done and the way it has snowballed.

Perhaps we should target our anger at them, not other sections within the airline.

Now where did I put that Harrier!

Desk-pilot

[Human Factor]

Nice to see The Guvnor reducing this to a Cabin Crew should get paid more than Flight Crew argument again.

You're not a CSD are you Guv? :rolleyes:

[mkeane]

No, he's a w@nker!

[All Spooled Up]

Funny airforcenone, I was just wondering if the guvnor was a CSD. Would amply explain his FO/CSD pay/responsibility drivel, which I don't think really merits any further comment.

If he is a pilot, and he takes that view of his First Officers, one can only imagine his CRM is lacking to a dangerous extent. That sort of attitude would quickly lead to a P45 in my company.

Sad. Very sad.

[Mike-Hunt]

Guv,

You have not replied to my earlier post. Namely; why do you choose to spend your life amongst the people you so dislike and disrespect namely - PILOTS on this forum.

You are the most despicable idiot - because that's what you MUST be - I have come across here EVER!!!!

Why don't you just form a scab and drop off?

Or.... do you enjoy being a masochist????

[ 28 September 2001: Message edited by: Mike-Hunt ]

[Molly1]

By God iv'e enjoyed reading all these comments from you guys, really entertaining but at the end of the day it's the poor old engineer who deserves more cash as they are the ones that keep you and that lump of metal up there safe, so stop fighting amongst yourselves and grow up :rolleyes:
PLEASE!!
_____________________________________________
Have to raise that one to add.

[ 28 September 2001: Message edited by: RAMPONE ]

[sudden twang]

Desk Pilot ,
Is it true that you and your fellow residents at Waterside have been told not to look out of the window in the morning ?

I've heard that it is so that you have something to do in the afternoon!!

[lee.storer]

Hi all.

I am relatively new to this site and was directed here due to its informative nature.

As a newcomer to the site i would like to take this opportunity to firstly say "hello", and secondly to question why some people are here in the first place.

Probably a quarter of postings are from people who clearly just want to create tension.

Some people seem to go to a lot of time and trouble to gain usefull "rumours" for the site, to only have abuse posted against them.

Is this adult ??

These people seem to me like the hooligans that pretend to call themselves football fans so that they can create confrontation.

Maybe this is historically what the site is like.

If so then i appologise to you all.

This is a great site which i hope i want to remain a part of. :)

[topman]

The real problem is that for too long, BA have had too many people, being paid above market rates, doing too little. In times like these its the innefficient operators like BA who wil hurt the most.

Quite simple really.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Flying Banana
On the subject of expensive engineering company cars, i think you'll find that most companies hire cars these days, they don't buy them outright for 20k...The difference in rental between a turbo nutter golf and a
1.6 Astra is not a lot and certainly would not add up to 4.8 million..

Perhaps the easiest method for BA to save some dosh from crew rather than crew numbers would be to reduce the allowances / rates for Overtime, failing that you could do what the BA Managers do, without complaint - put all those extra hours in for nothing!.

[The Guvnor]

Well, lots of hot air and posturing but no one has come up with any argument as to why captains should not have pay parity with senior managers; FOs with junior managers; and PSRs/CSDs the same as (or slightly more than) FOs.

I do apologise for leaving engineers out of this scenario - I'd place holders of licences with type ratings and A&C plus Multi X or whatever the JAA equivalent is at a middle- management level - between Captains and FOs. Holders of LWTRs around FO level or slightly less. Engineers as I've said many times before are a vital part of the airline business and people who have very sadly been overlooked for too long. A good engineer is worth his/her weight in gold and at the end of the day is what makes flying safe!

I also think that pay rates for cabin crew generally should be substantially increased. I was recently going through some comparisons with pay rates for CC at different airlines and frankly (a) I can't see why they would do it for what they are getting vs the hassle they get from flight deck and the pax at times; and (b) no wonder there's such a high turnover. Perhaps if CC was made more of a 'profession' and considerably better paid then they would be prepared to look upon it as a longer term career than currently seems to be the case for many. As for their pay, let's put it this way - one could chose between a dozen CC or one BA long haul captain!

Incidentally, if anyone can come up with any other industry where the line personnel get paid more (basic pay) than management I'd be interested to hear it!

[Le Pen]

Thanks Guv......will you marry me, I WILL have your children. :D

Anyway BA is top heavy with managers and do-nothing backroom types.

We are a group of about 120 engineers with about 40, yes, 40 support staff...

Most times when I pass thru LHR they can frequently be spotted playing Solitare or minesweeper. :rolleyes:

All very valuable I'm sure!

Love

LP

[SussexPSR]

As a BA Psr on worldwide at LGW I'd love to earn the same as an F/O, but I know for a fact that my take home doesn't touch that of an F/O. I admit that we are well paid compared to other UK carriers, but compare us to AF, KL & LH etc etc it's pretty much the same (in fact ex-colleagues who I left at AF work less than I do & earn the same...). As for productivity, the planners in their suits at Waterside aren't known for being the most crew friendly of bods, so an 8 day BGI was obviously the most productive way to crew the flights at the time. As cabin crew we are the only european major to do back to back trips, which boosts productivity no end....and they are killers, just ask any 767 Flight Crew who do the double LGW-JFK-MAN-JFK-LGW trips....
There are a few mega senior C/C who on occasion may top the pay of a junior F/O, but only when the C/C member has done a couple of long range trips & the F/o has been stuck on a month of E coast n/stops or Africas....

[ 28 September 2001: Message edited by: SussexPSR ]

[upperecam]

The Guvnor is a certain Mr Neil Robertson and I am researching court records to show some of his lesser qualities over and above the fact that the man is an absolute nothing. He certainly could not handle the job of a CSD let alone flight deck. I have no personal axe to grind other than total irritation at his presence on Prune. Think of the worst itch you have ever experienced and you don't even come close to this guy. I speak of someone who has met the moron and believe me creepy is as creepy does!!!!!




:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[White Knight]

I hope he's never on one of my flights, or an offload may just be in order..........

How could CC ever be a profession when the job doesn't require ANY intelligence. DOH....(as for the responsibility of hundreds of lives - I can't say that I've ever heard of the CC give a NITS brief to the flight deck - wake up matey boy !!!!)

Oh well, the world's full of Walter Mitty types.

[Human Factor]

Guvnor,

Incidentally, if anyone can come up with any other industry where the line personnel get paid more (basic pay) than management I'd be interested to hear it!



If anyone can come up with an industry where the line personnel have to take the risks that we do, whilst the management stay cocooned in their offices, I'd be interested to hear that!

[Notso Fantastic]

Well when I saw this thread, I knew that idiot Guv would be in on it. Now do you believe that this person is mentally ill? He must be shut up- he is kicking of other idiots like Deskpilot and just teasing you all- very childish. Just totally ignore him......IGNORE HIM! I will keep on this blasted nuisance's tail though! If you want to see what a disappointing character this man is, go to the website showing what a villain he is!

[Alfredo_Garcia]

Guvnor,

You ask "what other profession has line personnel being paid more than managers" - try the NHS (rather a large organisation). Surgeons and many of the senior doctors are paid substantially more than the hospital managers because they actually carry out the front-line work, rather than oversee it.

The reason that there is such a large turnover of cabin crew is that the job requires practically no qualifications and very little training. For you to say that cabin crew have an important job because they "sell and collect the revenue from duty free sales" is, frankly, laughable. You're obviously not aware that they receive a percentage of the take and so engage in this particular onerous task rather enthusiastically (often at the cost of a good service within the cabin).

I have no axe to grind with the engineers, the vast majority I have met are hard working, professional and good at their job. there is, however, a job hierarchy within every profession and most engineers will recognize that pilots come above them. No malice, just reality.

If there are any other unanswered questions that you need answers to then please feel free to post - many of us are more than able to give informed opinions due to our qualifications, both from present and previous professions.

Name-calling and insults are rarely called for as it is the domain of the ignorant, but in your case, you really are a total prat.

[flapsforty]

It’s not very often I come across a thread on PPRuNe I wish I hadn’t read, but this is one of those times. :(


Quotes:

For one, they (FO's) are trained PROFESSIONALS (unlike cabin crew - it doesn't take a great deal of nouce to open a door and direct people down a slide) and for another they are 2IC in every ops manual I've ever worked to. (after the skipper).
******
How could CC ever be a profession when the job doesn't require ANY intelligence. DOH
******
"Indeed, a CSD/Purser should be earning slightly more than an FO due to their greater levels of responsibility"
Ahh, come on Guv!
Look at the training involved to get to there.

No quarrel with the fact that an FO makes more than I do; "supply and demand" takes care of that in a simple way.
With our mob the Captain is always good naturedly referred to as “The Boss”. It's a good & realistic gauge of the respect he or she is held in by cabin and cockpit crew alike.

But regarding some of the comments made on this thread, let me say this:

To become a Purser in our outfit, we have to be fluent in 4 languages besides our mother tongue. It took me almost 2 years of study for each of those exams. And that’s for a person blessed with a reasonable flair for languages.
I know of many colleagues who spent a lot more time and money than I did, to get where they are now.
All this in one’s own time, and with a financial recompense from the company which doesn’t even begin to cover the cost of the years of private tuition we have to take since no regular class will fit in with a “normal” flight schedule.

Once we have the languages, we can apply for the next step up the ladder.
To prepare for that interview generally takes anything between 2 and 6 months of studying management theory, aggression-psychology, motivational tools etc etc.
The process involves 2 days of rigorous psychological screening, and has a 50% prune-rate.
Then 6 months of training follows.

There are 2 more steps to become a Wide Body Purser, and at each stage, there is a fall-out rate of again about 50%.
All fair enough, no complaints from me, you want to get somewhere, you’ll have to invest in yourself.


Which brings me to the total crap that some of you have been spouting on this thread about the job that I do. All it does is highlight your very limited understanding of what the job of CSD/Purser entails.
And it shows that even among the best & the brightest, some total f*ckwits exist. :D

I consider myself fortunate in many different ways; not least because the vast majority of the pilots I work with are men and women of intelligence, integrity, professionalism and a sincere no bull-sh!t desire to jointly provide our pax with the best possible service!


I am not a pilot, and never do I aspire to “rise above my station”.

But by God I am due some respect for what I am, for the job I do, and for what it took me to get here!

[G.Khan]

Well said Flaps, agree with your comments 150% - additionally, as a (retired) pilot I can confirm that most pilots only speak English and Rubbish, unfortunately, on PPRuNe, it would seem that many of us only use our second language.

[gas path]

....................within every profession and most engineers will recognize that pilots come above them. No malice, just reality.


Just about sums up this country!!!!!!!!!

Sorry but the only time you come above us is when your airborne. :D ;) :D ;) :D

[The Guvnor]

Well said FlapsForty - you've provided a perfect example of the point that I was trying to make about the high degree of experience, skill and above all professionalism required by CSDs/Pursers.

I think that this thread illustrates that the flight deck knows all too little about the skills of the people at the front end of customer service - the people who are, incidentally, the 'public face' of the airline.

It also shows that there's little understanding of the other people involved with airlines - from operations, crewing, scheduling, passenger service agents, dispatchers, engineers, administrators, sales and call centre staff etc etc. As I've said many times before, an airline is a team effort and at the moment it appears to the other players - including management - that senior pilots have closeted themselves away in their ivory towers and have no interest in sacrificing their swimming pools, expensive cars, yachts, private aircraft, private schools for their kids etc.

There's a saying about walking around in other people's shoes. Perhaps some of you guys should try it sometime!

Alfredo_Garcia - you'll find that the senior doctors are in fact managers as well (at least here in the UK - can't speak for anywhere else) - I suspect you're you're thinking of hospital line administrators which are a somewhat different category of people (think of them as CSDs compared with the Consultant as Captain...)

[White Knight]

F40, that's exactly what we as flight deck are generally trying to say - GIVE US SOME RESPECT !!! This is directed at jealous fools who think we get paid too much for being pilots...
I have no axe to grind with CSD'S/Pursers, in fact there are many times that I've gone well out of my way to help them out in the past- that said, CSD's and pursers are there to throw the pax out of the aircraft when things go wrong... And for no other reason. The drinks service is only really an aside.

Firemen,police etc get less than some CSD's - typical of this cocked up country that we live in I think. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[White Knight]

By the way Guvvy boy, I've worked in ops, done a stint with engineering, so I have seen aviation from a few angles.... Needless to say, the SHARP end is where it really all happens. I speak from experience .

[The Guvnor]

White Knight - good attempt at a recovery there, but nil points for going straight in and saying it's flight deck that wants respect! You have to earn that, laddie, and at the moment there are an awful lot of pilots out there who appear to think that they are the be-all and end-all of the airline business and couldn't give two hoots about their team-mates elsewhere; especially when it comes to pay!

The reality, as I have said many times before, is very simple. Pilots are simply aerial bus or truck drivers. Sure, they have to go through a lot more training to get there - but nowhere near as much as in some professions. In addition, although I think you'd all claim to be professionals, your working practices are distinctly blue collar.

Hence my prediction that this current situation will be used for a drastic reformation of payscales and working practices. No one so far has come up with any justification why pilots' - especially captains' - salaries should be considerably more than those of the majority of managers; and nor has anyone come up with any reason as to why there is such disparity between flight deck and senior cabin crew or licenced engineers.

The standard response, of course, is generally: "well, if we don't work the aircraft don't fly". Very true. However, you're forgetting that if the engineers don't sign off the aircraft you're not going anywhere either; and if the cabin crew (at least in the case of a pax airline) don't work then you're also going to be sitting there twiddling your thumbs.

Costs need to be cut - and those paid the most (including management) are the obvious targets.

Another area I'm convinced will have to change will be the seniority system which acts as handcuffs to the free movement of personnel and as such is bad for both crews and the company. At the end of the day, what does it actually mean anyway? If it was replaced with a promotion-on-merit and direct entry system, then the real effect is only going to be on seniority based bidding which could be replaced by randomised or rotational bids. Otherwise, you get paid for the job you're employed to do: FO, training FO, Captain, training captain, fleet manager; whatever.

[flapsforty]

Guv with you for a champion, who needs enemies? :rolleyes:

But please make sure you that don't even infer that I agree with sweeping statements like:
I think that this thread illustrates that the flight deck knows all too little about the skills of the people at the front end of customer service -

That is a load of BS, and only shows off your own prejudices. In exactly the same way that white knight and others only put themselves to shame with their nonsensensical opinions on cabin crew.

But let me not waste any more time on this. Most cabin crew and pilots, at least where I work and that is after all the only environment I can discuss with any authority, get on famously with eachother.

There is a basic understanding of eachother's jobs, a forgiving eye for eachother's weaknesses and a good amount of mutual respect.

Salaries are negotiated for by the various unions, and good luck to anyone who can get a good chunk of the pie. :D

[Mike-Hunt]

GUV,

IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT
IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT
IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT
IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT
IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT
IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT

[Le Pen]

A.Garcia.....

I wasnt going to rise to the bait but.......

Till you know something about Engineers.....shut the F**k up.

Love

LP

[HOVIS]

A Garcia.

It takes weeks to train cabin crew,
months to train flight crew,
and YEARS to train licensed engineers!!

Need I say more.

Mind you, some bright spark amongst you will just deduce from this that the cabin crew are more intelligent and therefore can learn quicker.

Oh dear have I overstepped the mark here? I'm so sorry Sirs I will climb back under my toolbox never to express an opinion again.

Engineer- know your place!!!!!!!

[John Boeman]

"But let me not waste any more time on this. Most cabin crew and pilots, at least where I work and that is after all the only environment I can discuss with any authority, get on famously with eachother.

There is a basic understanding of eachother's jobs, a forgiving eye for eachother's weaknesses and a good amount of mutual respect."


flapsforty, it is always a pleasure to read your intelligent reasoned posts. The above would describe the situation anywhere I have worked.
I think you can accept that the requirments for the position of purser vary considerably between airlines. Also I think it is possible that some people are thinking of the senior CC member on board when posting on this subject and again the training and experience required is a huge variable dependant on the type of aircraft one is flying on. This would explain some of the posts that "hit the nerve".
I have no comment for the windup merchant.

[spannersatcx]

But what has all this got to do with BA management taking a 15% pay cut. FYI it will take me 2 years to earn what Red Oddington has taken in a pay cut. Surely he (they) can afford to take more, after all they could retain 2 engineers or maybe 1 Captain with the cut he is taking alone! :mad:

[sky9]

Once again like most threads on PPrune we end up with the Guv adding his pennies worth.
The argument about pilots value is distilled by 2 facts.

Read the UK Air Nav. Order and see where the responsibility ends, then decide who are your key staff. On that basis pilots are underpaid.

As an American pilot once said "show me you pay cheque I'll show you your status"

[buzid]

GUV hits on a very curious point with his pilot/ bus driver analogy, and CSD/ FO pay and experience comparisons.
When it comes to day to day productivity, or maybe job difficulty and complexity, there's probably not much difference between a manager and pilot or air trafficer on an average day at work. therein it ends.
There are generally a multitude of skills involved in managing a jet or ATC sector that most of us posses to a greater or lesser degree but few of the general population have in exactly the right proportion, after all - it's the recognition of ones skills and abilities that drive an individual towards a particular career chioce in the first place.
Secondly, whereis it's reasonably simple to measure the performance of a day to day line manager, it's fiendishly difficult to directly measure that of say a pilot or air traffic controller perhaps. Thankfully it happens infrequently, but all our training and skills are called upon to save a few hundred arses - no second take, power breakfast with team briefing and glossy projections with coffee break involved. I just don't know how you can financially quantify such a unique field, the market has had something to do with it sure, but Guv is like so many bean counter I've heard spout on about pay and pruductivity - they know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: buzid ]

[anawanahuanana]

Alfredo Garcia- I believe the saying goes:

"Even a pilot can ground an aeroplane, but only an engineer can fix it"

So ram it.........pal. :mad:

[mjenkinsblackdog]

I get sick of reading comments by the guvnor etc .They belong to the dogs for their pathetic comments when pilots are facing a tough time. :mad:

[moist]

Guvnor - you are a LOONEY and YOU know IT.
With so many people saying so, you're in the minority and that's a fact.
I would have thought that at least changing your username and returning as someone else would be a good start. It seems though that you may after all be a real head case and nothing will make you see sense, or when time is/should be up.

[sky9]

Moist

I have a feeling he already has.

[corner speed]

Fellow Aviators,

Stop wasting your energy. This "GUV" is
nothing but a frustrated,pilot hating,
("I wish I made as much as they do"), lonely
airline CEO wannabe!

Fly safe! :D

[Anti-ice]

This is a hotbed of issues,viewpoints,and a barrel-load of vitriol aimed at you-know-who ,not surprisingly!

The point is the topic that was started originally, and this is what should be debated here.

Like tempermental 4 year olds, some people are best left alone until they come to their senses (i fear a very long wait....zzz....)
Ignore the guvs comments, he obviously puts them their to get people to rise to the bait.

Whether BA or not, I am sure that pilots,engineers and cabin crew alike are in the majority of cases skillful and deserving, and it really shouldn't come to a question of who deserves most praise / salary.

It's not really a question of who does the best/better job ,more a question of why you are already there - because you have chosen to follow that line - - Most pilots/engineers would probably not want to be cabin crew , but I'm certain that most cabin crew would not want to be pilots/engineers !!

If people really are unhappy with their terms and conditions they will leave eventually anyaway.

I have a very strong feeling that Rod E and these other managers have taken a paycut at this early stage of this current crisis, in anticipation of later asking other employees of BA to do the same. I really would not be at all surprised.
When placed with the emotive question of will you take a cut - or - see the company sink into a disastrous financial situation,
You'd really have to ask yourself whether a lower salary or no salary at all is preferable.

I like anyone else, would not want to see this happen to anybody at any airline(I was with Air Europe until that fateful day in 91, and in retrospect would much rather have lost part of my income than the life and times I had there.)

As long as the BA accounting is honest, and inefficiencies are rooted out big time, things should fall back onto an even keel,
world events allowing,and passenger confidence being restored.

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Anti-ice ]

[aviatter]

I had a conversation with a pilot who had taken a pay cut in the early nineties to help out the airline he was with.

He said he didn't like having to take the pay cut (who would?) but that he wasn't stupid..."85%of my original pay is better than 0%"

Enough said. It isn't pretty, but it's better than unemployment.

[Notso Fantastic]

15% of staff pay is a drop in the ocean of BA turnover. The way to handle difficulty is not to attack staff benefits. Sack what you need to, keep the rest well motivated. BA is pouring money away in wasteful areas- wonderful shiny HQs, unnecessary buildings all over the place, thousands of useless, non productive staff. Until they attack the key waste areas, BA will lurch from crisis to crisis.

[lets go nads]

Would ROD have given himself and his "back door boys" a 15% pay cut IF HE WAS earning 140 K per annum I DO NOT THINK SO!His pay cut is more than the average flight crew pay per annum.

[halo]

In my humble opinion the cabin crew, the flight crew and the engineers all do a spectacular job ():-)
However, if you want a sobering comparison:
Cost of training pilot = £50K/£60K
Cost of training ATCO = £330K

Our work load doesn't go down, it goes up (dramatically every year)! So when you are all either flying, or looking after people down the back, spare a thought for the air traffic controllers who are prematurely going grey and are giving their all to make sure you get from A to B safely ():-)
If you want to see underpaid then go to LATCC, TC or LHR

[BahrainLad]

Why is it that BA Concorde pilots (as an example) fly a LHR-JFK sector (3.5 hours) and then have an overnight stay in NY?

Some charter pilots are given an GLA-Tenerife + delays + return trip which can end up being a 12-13 hour day.

And why do SST captains get paid more?

Until BA looks at every aspect of its operation - operations, management, sales, marketing, engineering and starts tearing down the mini-empires, back slapping and inefficiency they will never return to the days of being the 'world's most profitable airline'.

[mach2moose]

BahrainLad

When you understand fully the Concorde operation, then feel free to comment. Until then keep your opinions to yourself.

T2

[dumiel]

Seemed a respectable question to me how about enlightening us with a respectable answer

[Tosh McCaber]

T2sugarsplease,

Can you please help us to understand the Concorde operation, rather than give a rather vague and cryptic reply to what was a valid question?

[wallabie]

Bahrainlad

Get your head out of the camel's toush and inform yourself on the Concorde operation. Then you'll know you don't do a turn around in JFK.

Guv

I've been meaning to ask you for a while: What do you actually do for living ?
Your post on another thread about how drastically pilots pay was going to be reduced, although a bit chilling, was most amusing. Wishfull thinking my pet !
The best bit though was SAS taking over other airlines. This one really made my wooden horse roll on its back. Quite a sight !
As to abolishing seniority ? Guv, wake up. The airlines have a lot more to gain with seniority, not the pilots. Were they not losing so much by leaving, pilots would be moving around like crazy.
You are obviously not that familiar with safety, so let me enlighten you a tat. It's by leaning on stable pilot's force that you ensure compagny safety culture will be safeguarded. Do you think Emirates would have made it despite all its limitless cash ? It's attracted well trained and motivated professionals and given them salaries, carreer prospects and working conditions to make them want to stay.
I think I've got Prince Maktoum fax number somewhere. He could teach you a thing or 2, like how to get an airline started for one thing.

By the way, 15 % pay cut ? Sure 85 % is better than zilch, but you want to have a little reminder in the contract that it comes back to ante once the crisis is over. Lufthansa pilots had that in their 1992 contract and it took them quite a lot of energy to get it back.


Guv

I was tossing between litlle dwarfs with a windmill and a mouldy 1011 for my garden. What do you think ? Would be great for the kids.

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: wallabie ]

[kippa]

GUV..How many postings???

Did you know that if every posting takes you five mins to create, and many of your take much more, you have spent 10.5555 days of your sad life posting on this site..

I think you need help...

[wallabie]

"At the end of the day, the Captain is ultimately responsible for the aircraft and all on board, so no argument he has the most responsibility and should therefore be paid the most. But should he be paid any more than someone making decisions that affect the company's financial/commercial future? I can't see that. There are plenty of jobs that carry at least as much risk and involve as much training - for far less pay.

Let me put it this way - can anyone come up with an overwhelming argument against these comments - preferrably with facts to back up their position?

--------------------

Guv

Mr Brugisser in his wisdom, ran a once glamourous airline right into the ground.
He was discreetly wisked away in the finest Swiss corporate maner with enough cash to shut him up until the " big crunch " hits the universe. Swissair Captains during that time and until it stopped never flinched. It was always their name, nor Brugisser's, that was on the flight plan taking full responsability and eventually the heat when things got hairy, while Mr Brugisser was sipping his 3rd daïquiri at the Zürich Mövenpick.
I take it this is your idea of corporate sense of responsability ? Then keep those 1011 on the ground. Can they fly by the way ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can a Captain expect a bundle of cash if he crashes his aircraft and ruins the life of a few hundred ?
We are held accountable every time we get on board and should we stuff up no one is going to offer us another well paid job " with the boys ". That my dear commands respect; a word that has no meaning for you.

[exeng]

So the B.A. management lead the way with a 15% cut.

Next they attack the workforce with pay cuts.

Of course managers are on 'performance related pay', so they now appear to have performed very well from a beancounters perspective. Their 15% comes back in spades!

Ever been had?!


Regards
Exeng

[Hand Solo]

Wallabie - I'll have a go.

There are many jobs within the airline industry which carry as much financial risk as the Captain does, but with less pay and training. However there are very few jobs that carry as much responsibility for human life as that of the Captain, and of those that do, only the flight crew will live or die as a result of their actions. Anybody who is not on board the aircraft can choose to walk away from a problem, or take time to think about it. It may be detrimental to their career, but the option is there. Those on board the aircraft do not have the first option, and the latter is often in very short supply. In those short moments they will preserve the airlines priceless reputation for safety, or they may cause financial disaster far greater than any single decision taken in an office. Therefore, the Captain deserves to be paid more.

Bahrain lad-

If BA could robustly crew day trips on Concorde they'd have done it a long time ago.

Charter guys do indeed fly 13 hour days, as do many long haul pilots. But which aircraft do you think is most demanding to fly - a glass cockpit 757 doing M0.78, or a clockwork, 3 crew, 4 engine supersonic M2.0 sixties jet?

Finally, due to the seniority of the fleet, I think you'll find that most crew on the SST take a very hefty pay cut to fly it. Most do it for love (yes there are people in BA who enjoy flying), and a few do it for prestige.

[wallabie]

Way to go hand solo !!

[BahrainLad]

OK - how about -

BA crewing to the Gulf

Pilots:

Day 1 - LHR-BAH.
Day 2 - BAH-DOH-BAH (25 mins each way!).
Day 3 - BAH-LHR.

Cabin Crew:

Day 1 - LHR-BAH-DOH.
Day 2 - DOH-BAH-LHR.

Which is the most cost-effective? Would combining the two save money? Beats me.

But please don't misunderstand me. I'm not having a go at pilots. BA need to rip up the old company structure and rebuild it. We've all read on PPRune about 'Rolls Manager Europe' and 'First Chocolate Buyer'. It's been allowed to blossom out of control - mostly due to that prick with the initials RA...

Can't someone do something about it?

[Bellerophon]

BahrainLad

Why is it that BA Concorde pilots (as an example) fly a LHR-JFK sector (3.5 hours) and then have an overnight stay in NY?

We fly when our passengers want to fly, as simple as that, and over the years they have made their wishes very plain.

Westbound - in order to take best advantage of the time change - they want to fly mid-morning (arriving in New York in time for a day's work), or late evening (after a day's work in London, in time for the evening in New York).

Eastbound - with the time change now acting against them - they want to depart JFK early morning (arriving LHR around tea-time, in time for an evening in London), or as late as possible from JFK, arriving just before the night jet ban at LHR (to give them a morning at work in New York, with a full night's sleep in London).

Much as BA would like (and they have tried over the years), there is no way reliably to schedule flight crew for a two sector day on these timings.


And why do SST captains get paid more?

They don't!

They take a drop in income when they go on Concorde, as do the F/Os, most of whom give up, or pass up, commands for the chance to fly Concorde. Whatever their reasons for bidding on to the happiest fleet in BA, it certainly isn't money.

All of them could be earning substantially more on other fleets in BA, and currently the re-deployed ones are doing exactly that! :D

[anawanahuanana]

Hand Solo:

Once again, the dear old engineer is overlooked. I did THREE years of training (compared to the flight crews one), and then have spent the next 3 years busting my hump studying just so that now, at last, I am nearly in a position to certify my maintenance actions as fit to fly. And all for the princely sum of 27 grand a year. Not to forget the night shift in winter, in the pouring rain and snow. So there are a LOT of people with as much responsibility as the flight crew, with much more training, and far less pay and perks. And lets not forget, if you have good, well paid, motivated engineers, these "crisis situations" which you can`t walk away from, might just never happen......... :mad:

[mach2moose]

BahrainLad,

I would like to apologise for my previous curt reply to your posting. You caught me on a bad day! I am pleased to see that others have responded, and I concur with their answers, but would like to add that the noise ban at LHR also affects the schedules.

T2

[Kwikfitter]

You fixed wing bods are lucky.

Try the helicopters, same sh****y weather on the line same 12 hour shifts.

Thought at least your management disscuss your pay rises,after ours caved in to the pilots, they've binned ours.

Can't afford anything more for you bods we have to keep the flyboys happy!!!

Mr Garcia must be related.

Apparently they have a higher cost of living than us spanner ******s, you go into Tesco and there's a shelf marked pilots only, you lot can't afford it.

I wish some of them would just get a life or get lost if they're not happy and stop trying to put our employers out of business

Keep Drinking Heavily!!!!!

[BahrainLad]

My apologies for giving the impression that I was having a go at SST pilots - I'm not.

I'm a BA shareholder (have been since privatisation and have stuck with the airline through thick and thin) and love the airline to bits - I never fly anyone else.

However, I'm really disappointed that the current crop of management can't get their act together. Take the fight to Ryanair and Easyjet - you've got the slots, the frequencies and the onboard product to beat them - and turn the airline back into the lean machine that it was after Marshalls 'Night of the Long Knives'.

[Slickster]

Slickster's 3 point plan to cut costs-

1) Set fire alarms off at Jubilee House/Compass Centre/Waterworld.
2) Buildings evacuated- fire everyone outside not wearing a uniform.
3) Give everyone else nice payrise.

Job done! ;)

[NOODY]

Slickster,
bravo,
cheered me up.....can we use real fire!

[PercyDragon]

On the offchance that someone from BA is reading this I would just like to say, that, having done a longhaul trip as a pax to China
last week I really was impressed as to how HARD they are all trying nowadays. No, seriously. In fact, at the end of the trip the Captain of the aircraft was even standing there, along with the cabin crew, saying goodbye to us all...and with a full load on a 747 that's a lot of people! I really do believe that this downturn is just a momentary 'blip'...so hang on in there guys, the good times will come again.

[dumiel]

I thought there was a stoppage on training at BA etc so can anyone tell me why we are still sending cadet pilots out to USA for three months flight training (just started) Club class no less all expenses paid??????? believe 15 newis went today!!

[Bus429]

Garcia (I'm touching forelocks and realising my place in the system) - you are obviously one of the few remaining dinosaurs in the industry. No doubt you insist on being addressed as "Sir" and call yourself "Captain" outside work. This assumes you have reached those dizzy levels!

NASA taught a monkey to fly a rocket - they could not teach a monkey to fix one!
:p

[itchypuss]

Its simple 90% of the time our jobs as pilots are fairly easy once we have got the hang of the aircraft we are flying but get it right on a KRK approach into CFU at night in poor vis and we earn our saleries for the next 10 years I can think of few jobs that occasionally throw up the same challenge the penalties of getting it wrong to dire to contemplate

[N380UA]

Folks,

This IS one sorry thread!!!
I haven't seen so much bashing within a topic amongst aviation professionals yet. :mad:

[Bigpants]

Dumiel it takes two years to get a cadet pilot through Basic Training and given the current retirement rate we need them to start now.
Club Class and all expenses paid...Bullshi* they deserve a decent seat because they are going to have to work solidly for the next 2 years just to get through training. After this they have to PAY BACK about £15,000 which means they take home far less than our cabin crew.
The only surprise is why anyone would do it! If they joined as cabin crew the training would last 5 weeks there is less stress no Sim checks no Route checks and it would be 10 years or more before they were overtaken financially by a cadet pilot.

[Pandora]

Dummy,

BA cadets share a poky room in the desert with the odd black widow and some cockroaches. "All expenses paid" means they are given $12 a day to live on. This has to pay for food, and petrol to drive to the food shops, because there sure as hell ain't food shops in the desert. They are sent to the States because it is cheaper to train them there than it is in the UK. They will work 6 days a week, starting at 5am in the summer (it gets too hot for the aircraft to take off in the afternoon) and in the winter, sunrise until sunset. They do not get holidays, not even Boxing day, off. BA currently needs to lose about 300 pilots, and has a retirement rate of about 200 pilots each year. So in 2 years time there will be a shortfall. As Bigpants pointed out, it takes nearly 2 years to train a new pilot and BA needs to be prepared for when the upturn happens. And it will happen.

[Airbrake]

Pandora & Bigpants,
You almost gave the impression that BA cadets were having it tough. Flying club class and then being fed and watered for free whilst BA sort out all your flying and ground school. Not to mention a shiney jet job at the end of all their pain and suffering! I almost felt sorry for the poor blighters!

[Slickster]

Airbrake,
Perhaps you should have worked harder at school...... :p ;)

[Hand Solo]

Ok here's one for all the simple people. Firstly BA are continuing to train all the cadets who are on courses simply because they are contractually obliged to the flying schools to do so. The cash has already been paid, they're not getting it back, so they might as well get the training from it. Secondly, the reason they send people to the states is because its dirt cheap, not because they want to send people off on a jolly holiday. Thirdly, if they did go in club, so what? A duty travel ticket in club costs the same as one in economy, and they'll only have gone in club because it was empty. If it was full they'd have made that trip in any seat that was going, including cabin crew rest seats, flight deck jumpseats or the fold down crew seats by the bogs.

BTW what exactly is a "stoppage on training"?

[M.Mouse]

Hand Solo

I think it means you haven't been eating enough roughage whilst you have been training.

[Fil]

BA cadets share a poky room in the desert with the odd black widow and some cockroaches

Seem to remember helping you remove about 500 flies from the ceiling with a broom after a barby!!! Only the 'odd' cockroach?

As Hand Solo said, the training has already been paid for. I expect these cadets had already started at OATS before Sept 11th and this intensive flying period had been planned and paid for by then. No reason not to send them.