Air Atlanta and other wet lease companies, how are they likely to ride the storm?

[Next Generation PSR]

Just wondered if anyone had any ideas as to how Air Atlanta and other wet-lease specialists are likely to fare or are doing during these difficult times, particularly as a lot of their aircraft are usually tied up with scheduled carriers such as IB and VS?

And how do things stand for Western carriers operating leased aircraft on Hadj flights for example? what are the insurance implications etc?

[ 27 September 2001: Message edited by: Next Generation PSR ]

[Flying_Steph]

I'd be VERY surprised if any terrorist weirdo would try to bomb an airliner full of pilgrims going to/from Saudi Arabia. Ferry flights might be an easy target, but I don't see the point of killing 10 or 20 Europeans/Americans helping Muslims. So why should the insurance costs go up ? The problem is probably that there's no specific insurance for the Haj. What counts is where you go, not the reason you go there (Middle East, etc.).

For the rest, well... Good question ! Who has a good answer ?

[ 27 September 2001: Message edited by: Flying_Steph ]

[B747wideboy]

If Air Atlanta are smart they should make it through ok. Virtually everyone in the company is employed on very flexible short term contracts and many of the aircraft are leased. Therefore if there´s no business then the company will shrink accordingly yet should retain the flexibility to take on any contract that comes their way.

Also, the large number of pilots looking for jobs will be a boon for people like Atlanta. All you guys who bitched and whined about them before might find yourselves sending cvs in the near future.

Only downside is I´ve heard rumours that Atlanta had bought aircraft, which would mean that they aren´t as flexible before. Also I noted in Flight International the other week that they´ve promoted a notorious muppet to the position of VP for marketing (a definite case of the Dilbert principle in effect) and the new company CEO is a failed left seater who has a hard time spelling "CEO".

[ 01 October 2001: Message edited by: B747wideboy ]

[mpenage]

They own the two ex Britannia B767 operated by Excel

[blue-ice]

You are right B747wideboy.
Air Atlanta is very flexible operation and should there for be in good position for todays difficult times in aviation.

On your other issue regarding manangement
you are with out question correct about the muppet new VP of marketing. It is a big joke in the aviation-world. What are this guys thinking?
I just hope this is not going to be too expensive for the company. There are limits to how many mistakes one can make.

[411A]

Their maintenance director in MAN in 1998 was not the brightest bulb in the lamp, and their grounding in October '98 was a very big fiasco. Would be very surprised if they survive in the long term. Their reputation preceeds them.
Sad, because they have a few very bright folks. The operative word is "few".

[Whiskery]

Air Atlanta have presently put a hold on recruiting for the Haj and are adopting a "wait & see" strategy for the time being.
They are a good Company and are well managed. It is not the first crisis they have encountered and overcome successfully.

411A - What have you been smoking lad?

[B747wideboy]

Further to my additional post, Atlanta do have some really EXCEPTIONALLY good people in the organisation. The trouble is that that are outnumbered by muppets and yes-men who contribute nothing to the success.

The amazing thing is that the corporate culture of the company actually victimizes the effective people. Time after time the real talent in the ops department has been driven out by the company politics or just lost patience with the amount of time they spend fighting fires started by their useless colleagues.

This is a true story (allegedly, could just be a fantastic rumour....fellow PPRuNers, I´ll let you judge...)

A couple of years ago the owner of Air Atlanta Icelandic called in a Management Consultant from Germany (Could have been LH Consulting) to audit the operation from top to bottom and make recommendations. They flew this guy to visit all the ops worldwide and then he came back to the head office to observe how things went there. When he finally made his report he basically recommended that virtually everyone from the Dir. Ops down to the actual line managers be fired. There was one guy in the head office who knew what he was doing and the rest just shuffled in when they felt like it, occupied space in the office and drew salary without adding value. So they fired the consultant and buried his report!

If they can regain sight of the principles that they grew on, i.e. a lean and effective approach to their work, they should weather the storm. But you have to feel that putting one of the least liked and lowest regarded men in aviation in charge of marketing is a classic way to shoot yourself in the foot.

[ 28 September 2001: Message edited by: B747wideboy ]

[Anti-ice]

.....Cue guv ,on finals , landing lights on his own L1011 just coming into view :p

[411A]

Not only have they shot themselves in the foot, the whole lower part of the leg is missing.
Having worked for these turkeys' for a few years, the folks in management leave a LOT to be desired. The really bright ones' have left for greener pastures a long time ago.

Every dog has his day, AAI has just missed the boat and has been left standing on the pier.

Time will tell :eek:

[Whoaaa]

Good one Anti-Ice! I was just thinkin the same thing. :D

[blue-ice]

Anti-ice & whoaaa !
Do not forget that Air Atlanta has become self-generated outfit that will keep on going regardless of what directors of board think and do, do not forget that there are lot of good people there e.g. the new CEO. The company would not be close to where they are to day without that guy.
AAI is in many ways a very good company but the way it's going now there is a question of how much they depend on luck. If the time has come to just put "someone", regardless, no matter what, lack of basicaly everything in the position of VP of marketing then I do have the feeling that there is not going to be any market in the future. The histoy will speek for it self, but how far is the manangement ready to go, to try their limits.
There is a histoy to learn from. Please take notice before it is to late !!!
There are many ways to hide from the past, but when someone has spoken out loud about how AAI is the lowest quality of all airlines, even saying that the owner of AAI has no qlue what he is doing and it would be in every ones best interest that he him self would become president of the company. Then being appointed as VP of marketing, whith same company then one questions, how blind is the board of in this company

[B747wideboy]

The new CEO is without question a nice bloke. But that is not the same as being a smart bloke.

The owner of the company has been lucky to date, although he has already lost 20 percentof the company to a bank due to bad decisions but if he doesn't step in and get a grip these people are goingto kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

[ 01 October 2001: Message edited by: B747wideboy ]

[Anti-ice]

Oh well,his TriStar obviously not CAT3 certified, we can only watch & wait... :D

Good luck to the Air Atlanta guyz, flown on various occasions under their IB lease, and looked after v well each time. . .

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Anti-ice ]

[320DRIVER]

Why were Air Atlanta grounded in 1998?

[411A]

Amoung other concerns, undocumented spares. They lost one very lucrative UK contract as a result.

[Whiskery]

That's rubbish 411A.

The Company was grounded because a disgruntled ex-employee (in the maintenance dept) went to the CAA and suggested there was some incorrect maintenance scheduling going on re: the use of spare parts. The airline was grounded on Friday 23rd October and was airborne again on the 26th after a thorough CAA investigation revealed Air Atlanta did NOT have a case to answer!

Please now enlighten us on the "lucrative" contract we lost as a result of this 411A.

[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: Whiskery ]

[411A]

Rubbish, you say, Whiskery--
Well then, if this was true, then the L10 they were dismantling in TUS and not using a DAR for the documentation of as-removed spares, must surely have been an illusion. Strange, as the FAA and the UK CAA did not see it that way.
The problems go much deeper than even you could imagine.
In addition, BY (two aircraft in 1997) went bye-bye.
If you are working there, suggest that you look for other employment. Their day has come and gone.

[Whiskery]

You sound like a fly by to me 411A - how long did you work for us, 3 or 4 months maybe? Couldn't hack it eh? Don't worry mate most of the whingers couldn't either.
No need for me to change employment,conditions are better than 5 years ago and there may just be a 400 around the corner.

Still waiting to hear about that lucrative contract we lost!

[B747wideboy]

"BY" as in "Britannia", Whiskery.

[Tarek Nor]

The BY contract went for different reasons to those stated. BY wanted
a B767 as a standby CC were not in a position to add a
4th type to the AOC, so it wasnt possible.

411A is as usual just trying to stir-up a bit of trouble. :rolleyes:

[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: Tarek Nor ]

[The Guvnor]

Hang on though Tarek Nor - so how come CC has the ex BY 767s that it's leasing to Excel if they couldn't get the 767 on their AOC? Or is it simply a case of "that was then, this is now?"

[GOLDEN LION]

At the time CC were not in a posn to hire and train the drivers for the B767 that BY wanted. They were already committed to add further L1011's to the Caledonian fleet.
The B767 deal that CC now has with excel is for 5 years and further a/c are being added to the fleet for the future expansion of excel. Also CC have deals for the 76's to go to India for the Hajj so now have year round work for them... ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[shake rattle n roll]

I have been reading this thread with interest!
You, wideboy, and your mate 411a obviously don't know what you are talking about. You are nothing but a bunch of windbags, puffing up big behind your computers.
What do you know about the employees of air atlanta? You have no idea as to who is employed, what their abilities are or where they have come from. I would also advise you to be careful as to making statements about AAI employees, unless you have the desire to stand up in a court room and make the same remarks there.
Get your facts straight, the B767 is on the AOC, secondly AAI has contracts well into next year for both types of aircraft.
As to AAI losing a lucrative contract due to disgruntled employees actions, what hogwash! A funny thing that they were cleared to continue the operation by the CAA only a few days later after the allegations were made!
They then went on to operate contracts for the Whitehouse.
My guess is that the 2 of you were either previously employed by the company or wanted to be and they decided they did not need the likes of you in their operation.

[Tarek Nor]

Guvnor

Very simple @ that time the B737's were
still on the AOC, and now they are not, so
the problem was solved. :cool:

[rufino]

:p As an aai employ im reading lot of bull****s here from some people that definetly are ex-worker of the company and they dont know **** about the company.
my opinion is that aai will survive.

[411A]

...the company is a survivor allright, the question is....for how long? Very big black clouds on the horizon, bigger than most realise.

[jokeair]

Well said shake rattle n roll. I think the others are guys that didn't make it with AAI and are applying for Airline nr 15+. (MAX 3-6 months and then are off to the computer and crying) AAI will survive. :cool: :cool: :)

[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: jokeair ]

[Flybob]

Wideboy, some of what you say is true, some less so. The New CEO is very well qualified for the position given his past experience and obvious talent for the job. That is my feeling anyway. And I wish him the best of luck
411a - A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing. Ref dismantelling A/C. The aircraft was JAR ICAA registered. Therefore no FAA representation is required. Even if it were FAA registered you can park an aircraft and remove parts up six months after last flight, as long as you can show servicability and function on the last flight as, servicable as removed. This has been done since Pontious was a pilot.
The Jar work on a similar schedule whereas if you intend for the project to extend beyond this acceptable time frame then you have to write and have accepted a reclamation program. Accepted by the JAR licencing body. Ref JAR 145-50 & 60 leaflet 10 & 11. Even with this in place a lot of components still have to go to shop for Zero timeing.
Anti-Ice, looks like you were right with the guv.
Whiskery, Right on.

:rolleyes:

[ 01 October 2001: Message edited by: Flybob ]

[B747wideboy]

Before we got into name calling, I said in my first post on this thread that AAI ought to ride this storm out pretty well. I also pointed out that a lot of the guys that bitched about them and accused them of flagging out or operating under a flag of convenience may have cause to eat their words and fax their resumés to Iceland in the current business environment.

Make no mistake, I´m all for Atlanta, it seems like some people there are a bit touchy though! Besides, it´s not like the new VP will actually be involved in any marketing.

[ 01 October 2001: Message edited by: B747wideboy ]

[EI - E I - O]

Was the incident, the one which involved the fuel pump "falling" out of the wing onto the Grnd Engineer, who was changing it, pouring tons of fuel onto the ramp,@ Stand 31, I think it was??? Quite an amazing thing to see, the poor engineer was like a drowned rat!

With Regards to the Hajj, I cannot see the Regulatory Aviation Authorities, allowing "G", "EI" & "F" registered aircraft, go down that part of the world this year. Remember, they still have to go down an approve out-stations and so on. Anyway, the governements, might see it as one way, of getting "resolve" on the pilgrims? ("A new kind of war", I think, it is being refered, to as)

[B747wideboy]

Just a little postscript to my last post on this thread:

If things don´t look significantly better at my current outfit (where I have been flying for over two years, thanks Jokeair) then I might be one of the ones sending my resumé to Atlanta again! In the year and a half I flew there I had fun and would do it again, but that doesn´t change the fact that they have more than their share of dead weight.

As for the Hajj being cancelled, I wouldn´t worry about that too much. There certainly won´t be many pilgrims from Afghanistan this year though!

[ 01 October 2001: Message edited by: B747wideboy ]

[mutt]

EIEIO.

The first part of the Hadj starts around the 12th January. Following the demise of Transaer, I don’t believe that there will be any Irish carriers supporting the movement. But I would take bets that Air Atlanta, Britannia and Corse Air will be operating Hadj services.

Mutt.

[Flybob]

You might also find at least one other large British registered carrier either operating directly on the Hadj or doing some sub lease..Which is operationally possible (EiEio)despite rumours to the contrary.
You may well be suprised. only time will tell. They certainly have the aircraft and crew available..... :D

[EI - E I - O]

Mutt and Co, I am not disputing your knoweldge, simply pointing out the CAA, may have other ideas, about their aircraft going down to KHI, but as you did point out, time will tell.

[411A]

I guess you are not aware of the US registered aircraft involved, Flybob.
The folks at TUC and MZJ have many interesting stories to tell. Many quite true, I suspect.

[Whoaaa]

I read this thread with much interest. I have to agree with the lot of you that 411A is full of hot air. About a year ago there was a thread in regards to Orient out of BKK and he pretty much cut that down too and predicted that they will go tits up within a few months. Amazingly, they got the whole Indian Hadj a few months later (yes, all of India accept Mumbai which was done by Saudia). They even contracted an L-10 from AAI during the Hadj. And they are still around with 7 TriStars (one is ex-AAI). He claims to know Udom, it's not hard to throw names around, just pick up a recent copy of FI. "I" should know if Orient is going tit's up or not. I'm not saying it's a best company around but hey, it's still around. Many our our guys here ended up at AAI. On the inside? So far they all have only good things to say about the company. Just say it like how I see it. "Little information is indeed a dangerous thing" :cool:

[Flybob]

411A. FYI "N" registered L1011 bought for scrap value and dismantelled by FAA repair station as TUS. All parts removed were just that, Scrap until put through shop for full overhaul or repair and given new tags. "No" parts were given a serviceable tag as removed.
ALL other aircraft either having been dismantelled or presently being dismantelled in MZJ were on JAA registration and as such a program is in effect with the respective authority. FYI if you know MZJ and its recent history you would be well aware that the park is under constant and heavy scrutiny by the FAA and has been for a number of years. Also JAA member states regularly send reps down. This much I can guarantee.
Despite Rumours to the contrary there has never been an issue raised by ANY authority, or for that matter from anyone speaking from a point of authority as to the legitimacy of that operation. This might however be in contradiction to something you might have heard...Rumours perhaps, or just plain bull.
FYI several other euro registered airlines are carrying out exactly the same procedure at MZJ as are FAA customers. This in fact is the second largest site in the world for commercial aircraft decommisioning and dismantelling. Nothing new there.
Having been with the local DER and a DAR on this particular site, this much is guaranteed.
Speculation based on hearsay and conjecture regarding the legitamacy of an operation is one thing, but pretending to know what your talking about is clearly another.

[18-Wheeler]

I personally can't wait until next year, I just *know* that AAI is going to go gangbusters ...
I'm planning on the next couple of months being pretty quiet, but when the Hajj starts it'll just be a typical Hajj, ie, we'll have over ten planes and many crews going flat out. I can't see why the other regular airlines won't be expanding again shortly after that, and that's where AAI excels.
I have no plans on going anywhere for years to come.

[411A]

You may well be interested to know, Flybob, that the SDL FSDO has a vey large investigation in progress at MZJ at the moment....results shortly i'm sure.
And for Whoaaa, well if Udom was so well heeled, why is it that some of the guys that did the Haj for him last year are still waiting for their salary? In fact, some are waiting for their salary from 1999.
When we repossessed the L10 (s/n 1040) from Orient in 1999, the Thai DGCA mentioned that their certificate had been cancelled and would NOT be reinstated....and so it hasn't.
Once a pox on aviation, even a bigger pox now.

[Whoaaa]

Funny, exactly my point! All the Hadj guys are paid.

The L-10 that was "repossessed" just came in from a job done through IAL (as a favor with their guarantee) and weren't compensated for (not to mention several calls from the Feds out of SFO afterwards) . I guess one good turn deserves another. ;)

Ooh, the Thai DGCA? You mean the DOA. They had nothing to do with the IAL a/c. That one was registered as XU-800, a Cambodian registration not Thai from the day it came from Roswell, NM. As a matter of fact all the a/c since 1999 are all Cambodian registered.

[ 03 October 2001: Message edited by: Whoaaa ]

[Flybob]

411a. The consensus of opinion is that you are full of it. And who am I to disagree. If you manage to take your head out of your ar## long enough to actually read what I posted in my last script you will find that I actually made clear reference to the heavy FAA presence at MZJ. What I did not do was imply that this was in ref to anything the aforementioned Airline was doing or indeed that the maintenance facility was under investigation. One can only presume that was your intention. The FAA, as I am SURE you know, are investigating "primarily" the work carried out on a certain UK registered 747 cargo aircraft, the owners of which are currently sueing the facility. All this and more has been openly discussed in many publications and is NOT news. The other complaints I am led to believe are restricted to work COMPLETED by "the facility", or should I say not completed, and not procedures used by customers.
From the amount of Jibberish you are spouting I would have to presume you are a disgruntled ex employee not only of the MZJ parent company but also the Airline mentioned. Strongly suggest you get better informed, then get a life.
Have a nice day!

[Algy]

Iberia announced handing back both 744s - ouch!

[Tarek Nor]

Algy Eh ?

What B744's ?

They have 3 B743's dry leased, and 2 B742's wetleased. The B742's belong to Iberia, but are dryleased to Atlanta, and wet leased back.

:confused:

[ 03 October 2001: Message edited by: Tarek Nor ]

[411A]

Exactly my point, Whoaaa, the aircraft are all Cambodian registered because the Thai AOC was revoked. The aircraft was indeed repossessed due to non-payment of the lease ($533,000 to be exact) but not before many parts were found missing. In spite of Udom's reputation, the aircraft was flown away and sold. Have just today offered one of his former pilots a position, and this fellow mentions that he is still owed one months' salary from the 1999 Haj.

[Desk Driver]

With regards to CC going bust. I don't think it will happen. The UK charter market has way too much capacity and I expect JMC AMM BY MON & AIH to hand back some aircraft soon. Or, at least move some to Germany or wherever.

So, my theory.

We have already seen the return of bookings to the Charter Market ( Not much but it's there.) The predicted all out war looks unlikely to happen, more likely to be little pockets of action. By next summer (and 1 or 2 after that) everyone will be looking for extra Short Term peak capacity. Where are they going to turn "CC" of course.

That my prediction anyway

[rufino]

:p AAi has still the contract with iberia and looks they are gonna keep it.They have three B747-300 on dry lease contract and two B-747 200 on wet lease ,one of those from ib. :D

[Whoaaa]

Hmmm...411A, I really don't want to get into a pissing match with you but it is obvious that you are misinformed(this is not a wind up). As far as the Hadj 99 goes, all the pilots that flew with us then are either presently employed here, retired, dead or with the majors back in the states. What I mean is non are currently unemployed and therefore need to seek a position from you. I can list down those who have flown with us in 99 but that would violate their privacy. All I can tell you that I was there and still here.

As far as the AOC is concerned is more political than anything else. For example, Orient is the only airline in Thailand which does not employ any Thai pilots. Yes, it pisses some people off but that's another story.

Then again I shouldn't expect much, this is a "Rumour" network after all. :)

[Slickster]

Anyone seen that tristar at Lyon that flew through a thunderstorm? I think its an AAI one-doh! :eek:

[Denzil]

Sorry slick but the L1011 in question belongs to Air Transat.

[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: Denzil ]

[Desk Driver]

Slick,

That was an Air Transat ;)

[Whiskery]

Heard a rumour yesterday that the two ex Cathay 747's are finishing Iberia contract at the end of October. Can anyone in Madrid or Gatwick confirm ?

[Flybob]

Thats what I "heard".
I also understand that only one is Ex Cathay the other is ex IB dry leased then wet leased back....Or something like that.

[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Flybob ]

[jokeair]

I´m afraid it is true. The contract is over 1. November. :( But we keep our fingers crossed for buisness to pick up.

[CargoOne]

i've seen AAI' 742 TF-ATB this summer. she was flying with football fans and then just been parked for 3 days, awaiting for back trip (short hop inside Europe)... so utilization was next to nothing and i really doubt football fans were paying mega money to compensate non-utilization..

[Paladini]

Anyway, all the "rude" comments aside. I'm certain AAI will survive! Arngrimmur's not "completely" out of the picture. The basic tenents of the company are still very much in place, and SOUND, I must add! I wish all remaining well.....Carry on guys! Even though I'm with a "name carrier" now, I still watch with interest. Many good memories!!! Give 'em hell, Alan!!!! :cool:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The Air Atlanta people are great as far as I am concerned. I was in Jeddah in Feb. of 2000 changing an engine on a Catalina I was ferrying from J-Berg to London. They were kind enough to slip the P&W 1830 onto one of their 747's they were flying the Haj with. Saved me a small fortune and no one in Jeddah can figure out how I got that engine to just disappear one night, right off the ramp.Sure enough that engine showed up in London right where I wanted it.

Great people.
:)
The toughest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: Cat Driver ]
;)

[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: Cat Driver ]

[411A]

Air Atlanta Icelandic will just have to downsize, like everyone else...they are not immune to the present economic conditions.
The fox is in the henhouse now.

[shake rattle n roll]

411a, you are the most obnoxious, doom gloomer pratt on this site. You obviously have a problem with all of aviation. Why don't you go and jump off a cliff and do us a favour!!! AAI is a damn good company, and thankfully has no pratts like you working for them.
Regarding AAI, they are one of the most flexible companies in aviation at the moment, and if anyone will get through they will

[411A]

Well then ShakeRattle etc, how would you know how "good" it is working for AAI? Been there before or now?
Have to admit they do have "some" bright folks, but most of these are overshadowed by the pratts....(you perhaps..?)
Expect AAI to park ALL of their 747's shortly...or just after the Haj.

[18-Wheeler]

Cat, thanks - Anything we can do to help.

411A - Guess you don't follow the old phrase, "If you haven't got anything good to say, don't say it." ... you wouldn't have a thing to say, eh? :)
Suffice to say you've made you point, such as it may be, so just pretend that we respect your comments and move on.

I still reckon we're going to go gangbusters after the Hajj ...

[mutt]

Cat Driver,

Thanks for solving the mystery, I did wonder how you got that aircraft out of here. But if i known in advance I would have asked for a ride to London..... :(

As for the people in AAI, what Hadj contract are you doing? Are you sure that its a good time for Westerners to be based in Pakistan?

Mutt.

[18-Wheeler]

Nah, our bases will be Jeddah, Jakarta, and maybe Kuala Lumpur. I doubt if we're going to do the African Hajj this time though ...

[B747wideboy]

Don´t the aircraft placed with Saudia usually do a lot of flying to Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi?

[Whiskery]

Not with our aircraft. Air Atlanta normally do the Malaysian,Indonesion and Indian Hajj. We also tackle the Air Afrique Hajj but, as 18 Wheeler says, possibly not this year.