Air Atlanta and other wet lease companies, how are they likely to ride the storm?
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Air Atlanta and other wet lease companies, how are they likely to ride the storm?
Just wondered if anyone had any ideas as to how Air Atlanta and other wet-lease specialists are likely to fare or are doing during these difficult times, particularly as a lot of their aircraft are usually tied up with scheduled carriers such as IB and VS?
And how do things stand for Western carriers operating leased aircraft on Hadj flights for example? what are the insurance implications etc?
[ 27 September 2001: Message edited by: Next Generation PSR ]
And how do things stand for Western carriers operating leased aircraft on Hadj flights for example? what are the insurance implications etc?
[ 27 September 2001: Message edited by: Next Generation PSR ]
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I'd be VERY surprised if any terrorist weirdo would try to bomb an airliner full of pilgrims going to/from Saudi Arabia. Ferry flights might be an easy target, but I don't see the point of killing 10 or 20 Europeans/Americans helping Muslims. So why should the insurance costs go up ? The problem is probably that there's no specific insurance for the Haj. What counts is where you go, not the reason you go there (Middle East, etc.).
For the rest, well... Good question ! Who has a good answer ?
[ 27 September 2001: Message edited by: Flying_Steph ]
For the rest, well... Good question ! Who has a good answer ?
[ 27 September 2001: Message edited by: Flying_Steph ]
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If Air Atlanta are smart they should make it through ok. Virtually everyone in the company is employed on very flexible short term contracts and many of the aircraft are leased. Therefore if there´s no business then the company will shrink accordingly yet should retain the flexibility to take on any contract that comes their way.
Also, the large number of pilots looking for jobs will be a boon for people like Atlanta. All you guys who bitched and whined about them before might find yourselves sending cvs in the near future.
Only downside is I´ve heard rumours that Atlanta had bought aircraft, which would mean that they aren´t as flexible before. Also I noted in Flight International the other week that they´ve promoted a notorious muppet to the position of VP for marketing (a definite case of the Dilbert principle in effect) and the new company CEO is a failed left seater who has a hard time spelling "CEO".
[ 01 October 2001: Message edited by: B747wideboy ]
Also, the large number of pilots looking for jobs will be a boon for people like Atlanta. All you guys who bitched and whined about them before might find yourselves sending cvs in the near future.
Only downside is I´ve heard rumours that Atlanta had bought aircraft, which would mean that they aren´t as flexible before. Also I noted in Flight International the other week that they´ve promoted a notorious muppet to the position of VP for marketing (a definite case of the Dilbert principle in effect) and the new company CEO is a failed left seater who has a hard time spelling "CEO".
[ 01 October 2001: Message edited by: B747wideboy ]
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You are right B747wideboy.
Air Atlanta is very flexible operation and should there for be in good position for todays difficult times in aviation.
On your other issue regarding manangement
you are with out question correct about the muppet new VP of marketing. It is a big joke in the aviation-world. What are this guys thinking?
I just hope this is not going to be too expensive for the company. There are limits to how many mistakes one can make.
Air Atlanta is very flexible operation and should there for be in good position for todays difficult times in aviation.
On your other issue regarding manangement
you are with out question correct about the muppet new VP of marketing. It is a big joke in the aviation-world. What are this guys thinking?
I just hope this is not going to be too expensive for the company. There are limits to how many mistakes one can make.
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Their maintenance director in MAN in 1998 was not the brightest bulb in the lamp, and their grounding in October '98 was a very big fiasco. Would be very surprised if they survive in the long term. Their reputation preceeds them.
Sad, because they have a few very bright folks. The operative word is "few".
Sad, because they have a few very bright folks. The operative word is "few".
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Air Atlanta have presently put a hold on recruiting for the Haj and are adopting a "wait & see" strategy for the time being.
They are a good Company and are well managed. It is not the first crisis they have encountered and overcome successfully.
411A - What have you been smoking lad?
They are a good Company and are well managed. It is not the first crisis they have encountered and overcome successfully.
411A - What have you been smoking lad?
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Further to my additional post, Atlanta do have some really EXCEPTIONALLY good people in the organisation. The trouble is that that are outnumbered by muppets and yes-men who contribute nothing to the success.
The amazing thing is that the corporate culture of the company actually victimizes the effective people. Time after time the real talent in the ops department has been driven out by the company politics or just lost patience with the amount of time they spend fighting fires started by their useless colleagues.
This is a true story (allegedly, could just be a fantastic rumour....fellow PPRuNers, I´ll let you judge...)
A couple of years ago the owner of Air Atlanta Icelandic called in a Management Consultant from Germany (Could have been LH Consulting) to audit the operation from top to bottom and make recommendations. They flew this guy to visit all the ops worldwide and then he came back to the head office to observe how things went there. When he finally made his report he basically recommended that virtually everyone from the Dir. Ops down to the actual line managers be fired. There was one guy in the head office who knew what he was doing and the rest just shuffled in when they felt like it, occupied space in the office and drew salary without adding value. So they fired the consultant and buried his report!
If they can regain sight of the principles that they grew on, i.e. a lean and effective approach to their work, they should weather the storm. But you have to feel that putting one of the least liked and lowest regarded men in aviation in charge of marketing is a classic way to shoot yourself in the foot.
[ 28 September 2001: Message edited by: B747wideboy ]
The amazing thing is that the corporate culture of the company actually victimizes the effective people. Time after time the real talent in the ops department has been driven out by the company politics or just lost patience with the amount of time they spend fighting fires started by their useless colleagues.
This is a true story (allegedly, could just be a fantastic rumour....fellow PPRuNers, I´ll let you judge...)
A couple of years ago the owner of Air Atlanta Icelandic called in a Management Consultant from Germany (Could have been LH Consulting) to audit the operation from top to bottom and make recommendations. They flew this guy to visit all the ops worldwide and then he came back to the head office to observe how things went there. When he finally made his report he basically recommended that virtually everyone from the Dir. Ops down to the actual line managers be fired. There was one guy in the head office who knew what he was doing and the rest just shuffled in when they felt like it, occupied space in the office and drew salary without adding value. So they fired the consultant and buried his report!
If they can regain sight of the principles that they grew on, i.e. a lean and effective approach to their work, they should weather the storm. But you have to feel that putting one of the least liked and lowest regarded men in aviation in charge of marketing is a classic way to shoot yourself in the foot.
[ 28 September 2001: Message edited by: B747wideboy ]
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Not only have they shot themselves in the foot, the whole lower part of the leg is missing.
Having worked for these turkeys' for a few years, the folks in management leave a LOT to be desired. The really bright ones' have left for greener pastures a long time ago.
Every dog has his day, AAI has just missed the boat and has been left standing on the pier.
Time will tell
Having worked for these turkeys' for a few years, the folks in management leave a LOT to be desired. The really bright ones' have left for greener pastures a long time ago.
Every dog has his day, AAI has just missed the boat and has been left standing on the pier.
Time will tell
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Anti-ice & whoaaa !
Do not forget that Air Atlanta has become self-generated outfit that will keep on going regardless of what directors of board think and do, do not forget that there are lot of good people there e.g. the new CEO. The company would not be close to where they are to day without that guy.
AAI is in many ways a very good company but the way it's going now there is a question of how much they depend on luck. If the time has come to just put "someone", regardless, no matter what, lack of basicaly everything in the position of VP of marketing then I do have the feeling that there is not going to be any market in the future. The histoy will speek for it self, but how far is the manangement ready to go, to try their limits.
There is a histoy to learn from. Please take notice before it is to late !!!
There are many ways to hide from the past, but when someone has spoken out loud about how AAI is the lowest quality of all airlines, even saying that the owner of AAI has no qlue what he is doing and it would be in every ones best interest that he him self would become president of the company. Then being appointed as VP of marketing, whith same company then one questions, how blind is the board of in this company
Do not forget that Air Atlanta has become self-generated outfit that will keep on going regardless of what directors of board think and do, do not forget that there are lot of good people there e.g. the new CEO. The company would not be close to where they are to day without that guy.
AAI is in many ways a very good company but the way it's going now there is a question of how much they depend on luck. If the time has come to just put "someone", regardless, no matter what, lack of basicaly everything in the position of VP of marketing then I do have the feeling that there is not going to be any market in the future. The histoy will speek for it self, but how far is the manangement ready to go, to try their limits.
There is a histoy to learn from. Please take notice before it is to late !!!
There are many ways to hide from the past, but when someone has spoken out loud about how AAI is the lowest quality of all airlines, even saying that the owner of AAI has no qlue what he is doing and it would be in every ones best interest that he him self would become president of the company. Then being appointed as VP of marketing, whith same company then one questions, how blind is the board of in this company
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The new CEO is without question a nice bloke. But that is not the same as being a smart bloke.
The owner of the company has been lucky to date, although he has already lost 20 percentof the company to a bank due to bad decisions but if he doesn't step in and get a grip these people are goingto kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
[ 01 October 2001: Message edited by: B747wideboy ]
The owner of the company has been lucky to date, although he has already lost 20 percentof the company to a bank due to bad decisions but if he doesn't step in and get a grip these people are goingto kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
[ 01 October 2001: Message edited by: B747wideboy ]
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Oh well,his TriStar obviously not CAT3 certified, we can only watch & wait... 
Good luck to the Air Atlanta guyz, flown on various occasions under their IB lease, and looked after v well each time. . .
[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Anti-ice ]
Good luck to the Air Atlanta guyz, flown on various occasions under their IB lease, and looked after v well each time. . .
[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Anti-ice ]
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That's rubbish 411A.
The Company was grounded because a disgruntled ex-employee (in the maintenance dept) went to the CAA and suggested there was some incorrect maintenance scheduling going on re: the use of spare parts. The airline was grounded on Friday 23rd October and was airborne again on the 26th after a thorough CAA investigation revealed Air Atlanta did NOT have a case to answer!
Please now enlighten us on the "lucrative" contract we lost as a result of this 411A.
[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: Whiskery ]
The Company was grounded because a disgruntled ex-employee (in the maintenance dept) went to the CAA and suggested there was some incorrect maintenance scheduling going on re: the use of spare parts. The airline was grounded on Friday 23rd October and was airborne again on the 26th after a thorough CAA investigation revealed Air Atlanta did NOT have a case to answer!
Please now enlighten us on the "lucrative" contract we lost as a result of this 411A.
[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: Whiskery ]
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Rubbish, you say, Whiskery--
Well then, if this was true, then the L10 they were dismantling in TUS and not using a DAR for the documentation of as-removed spares, must surely have been an illusion. Strange, as the FAA and the UK CAA did not see it that way.
The problems go much deeper than even you could imagine.
In addition, BY (two aircraft in 1997) went bye-bye.
If you are working there, suggest that you look for other employment. Their day has come and gone.
Well then, if this was true, then the L10 they were dismantling in TUS and not using a DAR for the documentation of as-removed spares, must surely have been an illusion. Strange, as the FAA and the UK CAA did not see it that way.
The problems go much deeper than even you could imagine.
In addition, BY (two aircraft in 1997) went bye-bye.
If you are working there, suggest that you look for other employment. Their day has come and gone.
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You sound like a fly by to me 411A - how long did you work for us, 3 or 4 months maybe? Couldn't hack it eh? Don't worry mate most of the whingers couldn't either.
No need for me to change employment,conditions are better than 5 years ago and there may just be a 400 around the corner.
Still waiting to hear about that lucrative contract we lost!
No need for me to change employment,conditions are better than 5 years ago and there may just be a 400 around the corner.
Still waiting to hear about that lucrative contract we lost!