Student Records

[llanfairpg]

While training to be an instructor I read all the notes on the records of the club I was at. I was appalled to find this note written on one record.

This man should not be flying

Because of this, when I became an examiner/CFI I insisted that the student be able to read his/her note at anytime during training and es[pecially at the end of the course.

It was also interesting to note that some instructors allways put the same;

Comments like Exercise covered--OK--Satis--Average--good--ok

My question to you is;

What do you think is appropriate to write on student records based on some of the above and your own experience. Should there be a standard grading. AA- A - BA performance or should there be as I use Very good, good, needs more work?

On taking over a new student what I needed to know was ability and what has been covered EG was the last exercise completed?

I am amazed to find that still on some FI courses filling in student records is not covered at all.

A typical brief entry of mine would be

Ex comp--good--airmanship needs more work--demo 12/13 completed.

[PicMas]

I think you should put:

"Still has trouble maintaining altitude during steep turns, student was briefed on this exercise and showed an understanding - still did not manage to apply."

[llanfairpg]

"Still has trouble maintaining altitude during steep turns, student was briefed on this exercise and showed an understanding - still did not manage to apply."

I would write that as--repeat exercise-poor ht keeping

[FlyingForFun]

Comments like Exercise covered--OK--Satis--Average--good--okAh, yes, I remember that well! At a school I used to work at, an instructor who left before I joined seemed to write "Good" for every single exercise, which made it interesting when I had to start flying with his students..... (Luckilly, the school was small enough that I knew how most of the students were progressing by reputation anyway, but that's not the point.)

I now work at an approved school, so the requirements are different to registered facilities, but I think PPL instructors could probably learn a lot from the student records we keep for CPL and IR students. One A4 page per flight, which includes (as well as the house-keeping stuff like dates, hours, exercise details, etc): what was covered in the briefing, how the student performed in flight (nearly half the page), what the student was de-briefed on, the student's overall performance on the flight, a grade (A, B, C or D), and space for the student to sign to acknowledge he has read his record. And the most important bit: what the student will do next flight.

FFF
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[Life's a Beech]

I encountered an issue with this. I hope it would not happen again, and have reason to believe that the main problem was with the plaintiff's expert witness, who no longer does such work, and an ill-informed judge.

There was a case that I cannot identify where an instructor was taken to court over a student who had crashed. It turned out that this student had been ... a slow learner, let's say. The plaintiff's expert witness used the student records to win the case. The records had shown that, early in his training, the student had been very poor. These problems had been overcome, and the student was genuinely ready for solo (why he had flown as he did and crashed we will, of course, never know). However the fact that poor performance had previously been recorded was used against the instructor.

Be careful how you write reports.

[Whirlybird]

What is the purpose of student records? You have to answer that before you can decide what is useful to write on them.

I think their ONLY purpose is as a guide for the next instructor (or the same one if you teach as many students as I did one summer, and your memoriy is as bad as mine :))

That said, what use is good, satis, bad etc, on its own? What does it mean? Does good mean good enough to go on to the nest exercise? The students aren't at school; they don't need a grade. I, as an instructor, need to know what to teach to Bloggs, who I've never seen before.

So you need brief comments...but I don't see how you can standardise them. You need to know what stage was reached, any problems (definitely!), and what should be covered next.

For example (and I need one which covers both f/w and rotary flying)...

Ex 4 - Effects of Controls. Good, but Bloggs looks at instruments too much. OK to go on to Ex 5.

or...

Bloggs seems to have poor coordination and not understand what's required. Take care - tends to freeze on controls! Repeat exercise.

That's a lot more use than "This man shouldn't be flying". And it wouldn't take long.

Anyway, it would help me if it was done that way. :ok:

[2close]

Agreed that an adequate, clearly understood but concise brief (God forbid we ever get to the stage where we have to write reams after each lesson - keep the insurers away from this thread!!) should be written up at the end of the exercise and I attempt to do this on each and every occasion but have to admit sometimes it has to wait until the end of the day. For that reason I have made up a simple form that I use for every flight, on which I write Start Up, Brakes Off, Take Off, Landing, Brakes On, Shut Down times, as well as details of a/c, clearances, student, observations and a/c tech problems. It's not perfect and I'm sure it can be improved on. It's sufficient for me that even if I couldn't write up the student records at the end of the flight I can sit down at the end of the day and catch up then. If anyone wants a copy, drop me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll fire it off asap - feel free to butcher it to your own needs.

Life's A Beech has touched on the fact that student records, without doubt, contain information of a personal sensitive nature, i.e. the student's personal details, and are therefore subject to the requirements of the Data Proctection Act 1998, which gives the student the right to see and take a copy of his/her records at any time, subject to payment of the appropriate fee (£10 maximum at the last count).

There's nothing wrong with making negative comments provided you are able to professionally qualify those comments and we should all be able to do that. However, I would be extremely careful of making comments in a record that could be misconstrued and used against me and/or my employer.

[llanfairpg]

That's a lot more use than "This man shouldn't be flying". And it wouldn't take long.The above is a quote taken form my post which started the thread.

The instructor who left this in the students record was a very arrogant pompous ex RAF bomber pilot who felt he was above everyone else. He was however the best instructor at the airfield/club. He was unfortunately not the CFI. The CFI who was known for being less than responsible and in fact dangerous in my opinion.

The student mentioned above continued flying as he was quite well off and was a very popular club member and possibly one of the nicest people I have ever met in flying but sadly the comments had an important modicum of truth but should have read. This man needs extensive repeat training before solo can be considered.

The outcome of the above is that the CFI sent this man on a solo cross country from Shobdon to O/H Staverton at 16.30 on a winters night when it ws due to be dark at 17.00. I was in the tower at the time he took off and a student pilot said to the CFI, " dont you think it is a bit close to dark to send Fred of all people on a solo cross country now"? He replied " Nah he will be alright".

Fred landed at 1920 non radio at Manchester International Airport. I went to pick the aircraft up and Fred told me that he had been flying in the pitch dark and when he eventually found the cockpit lighting switch he was amazed to find he was at 12,000 feet. At no time during the flight did Fred know where he was and he thought he had landed at Birmingham until he had been arrested. The aircraft ran out of fuel on touchdown but he was subsequently able to restart and taxy clear.

Food for thought Eh?

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Here we have competency based training so performance in various units has to be scored 1 (CPL standard) to 4 (been shown it and can just about do it) plus comments which the student reads and signs as a fair account of the flight.
I remind my instructors that in worst case the records may be used as evidence in a court (as per Life's a Beech's post) should the unthinkable happen. In any case I should be able to pick up the file and get an overall picture of their (and the instructor's) progress.
As for tardy record keeping, with casual instructors I withold wages unless the records are complete, as IMHO the job is not finished until the paperwork is done. They are told this from the start so no excuses.:=
Am appalled that some instructors come out of training able to do nice landings from the RH seat and draw pretty pictures on a whiteboard, but have no idea of thier legal responsibilities. Some have never even seen the syllabus.

[athonite]

While there is alot of emphasis on instructors attending seminars and renewals, I do wonder how often the CAA inspect PPL flying schools to check that training records are being maintained. The only instance I can ever remember the CAA inspecting training records was following a fatality of a PPL student on a solo flight.

In terms of the training records I have always had the policy of a 'need to know basis' in terms of access. This is similar to medical records. You should share the information with the student as well as other instructors.

[A and C]

I always write up the flight as part of the student de-brief, this way the student knows exactly what his failings & his progress is.

I can't see any reason to keep the records from the student , it can only be counter-productive.

I have seen all sorts of write-ups some said more about the instructor than the student!

[Whopity]

What is the purpose of student records? I think their ONLY purpose is as a guide for the next instructorThe only instance I can ever remember the CAA inspecting training records was following a fatality of a PPL student on a solo flight.Lets pose a few questions: Is there a legal requirement to keep training records?
If so, how long do you keep them for?
What should be recorded in them?
Who might want to see them and why?

One thing is certain, if the records are to have any meaning, they should follow a standardised format; with instructors reporting relative to established datums. Some instruction is needed on how to do this, not only at FIC level, but also within the organisation where the instruction takes place.

An FTO is required to document such activities in its manuals but, there is no formal requirement for RFs to do so however, under EASA it may well be different.

[llanfairpg]

The difference between a school and a good school is a good school dosnt need legislation to make it a better school.

The only instance I can ever remember the CAA inspecting training records was following a fatality of a PPL student on a solo flight.

The CAA investigated the records of Fred's flight to Manchester and the club lost its CAA approval and very soon after the CFI lost his job

[IRRenewal]

While training to be an instructor I read all the notes on the records of the club I was at.

Why were you reading all the student records? Does the data protection act not apply? Did the students sign some form of disclaimer stating that trainee instructors could read their records and post about it on pprune?

Thin ice if you ask me.

[llanfairpg]

Thin ice if you ask me.But nobody did and it was a a long time before the data protection act had been heard of. However even now my FI students are allowed to read our students records in the same way, as part of the course involves monitoring our PPL students and following their progress. A statement to that effect is contained in the pilots order book and signed for by all students.


You may also be interested to know that the student, the instructor and the CFI have long since gone to the great hangar in the sky.

Jumping to conclusions can also put you on thin ice.

[IRRenewal]

I didn't jump to conclusions, I merely asked a few questions.

A statement to that effect is contained in the pilots order book and signed for by all students.


Good, means you thought about it and covered yourself.

A typical brief entry of mine would be

Ex comp--good--airmanship needs more work--demo 12/13 completed.

'airmanship needs more work'

What does that mean? Just as vague as saying 'average'.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Although our competency based syllabus was cumbersome when it first came into effect, it does a lot to inform the student what is expected of them, remove variations in asessment by different instructors, protect the instructor's ass and provide measurable outcomes (provided of course the instructor bothers to fill it in).

Evidence used to measure that the student has reached the required competency in each unit are documented in the syllabus. The student signs before each major landmark (first solo, first area solo, PPL, CPL) that they have completed the training specified in the elements which are certified on the achievement record when they ahve been achieved consistantly.

I'm surprised that this idea is not adopted more widely. I know I had a similar syllabus when I did my UK AFI course years ago.
Details here http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/vfrday.htm

[DFC]

The students aren't at school; they don't need a grade

They most certainly are and they most certainly do.

Grades ABCD work best for me. However, it is important to not only provide the grading system but to also provide the standard at each point of grading.

This is most easily done by not simply putting;

6.2.1 Straight and Level at Various Power Settings - A B C D

and putting;

6.2.1 Can maintain height +/- 100ft and direction +/- 20 degrees wings level while accelerating and decelerating between 70 and 110 Kt. - A B C D

C grades should have explanation. D grades must have explanation.

A raft of C and D grades makes it easy for both CFI and Student to see that flying is probably not for the student.

Unfortunately, mnay PPL students are graded for the first time when they complete the GST.

The next instructor should not have to be told what follows on from an exercise completed to the required standard........I hope that everyone knows what's after 6.1 and 6.2.

Please don't say 7 and 8!

Regards,

DFC

[digital.poet]

Ladies and gents,

Just reading this thread, I am interested to know if any of you instructor types have ever actually gotten to the point where you have advised a student that they should give up learning to fly.

I am still a PPL student, but I have taught people in other disciplines (software development specifically) and I have, once or twice, come across student who (to steal from Rowan Atkinson) "wouldn't get it, if it came in a large bag marked 'IT'". They are not stupid, but software requires a certain style of thought that does not come easily to most people and does not come at all to some. I would imagine that flying is the same.

As for me, my notes, and my instructor. I have noticed that he keeps detailed notes on my progress which are updated after each lesson. He has made it very clear that I am free to read them at any time, and usually goes through them with me if there are any negative points.

llanfairpg, I couldn't help but laugh at Fred's story there. I guess I shouldn't but what an extraordinary situation. To be 'that' far out of control to 'find yourself' at 12'000 feet. My god!

[llanfairpg]

Yes I could write a book about Fred's Story(in fact i am!)

This man should not be flying would be a good tiltle.

What this arrogant instructor should have written in was

This man shouldnt not be flying even though he was a war time devlopment engineer with Rolls Royce and is said to have crashed in more types than most people have flown. This man should not be flying because he is the most popular club member and actively supports the club. This man should not be flying because he loves flying and always has done since childhood. This man should not be flying because he will eventually sink all of his life savings into the reopening of Wellesbourne and loose all of his money, including his house, causing him to have a heart attack and die.

RIP FRED SMITH, THIS MAN DID FLY

[llanfairpg]

GRADES

All though I agree with grading I do not believe telling a man he is below average is good practice, it provides little incentive and is also bad business.

Much better to put, needs more practice.

Its not for any instructor to say This man should not be flying. Its upto an instructor to say, "this man should not fly solo".

Any fool can be a commentator but it takes vocation and skill to teach.

[VFE]

To give a balance, what of those instructors who aim for a complete novel when appraising basic air exercises such as turning? Self indulgent waffle is at best a nuisance to myself as the following instructor and at worse totally blows the students mind at the debrief stage (but that's another story).

"Airmanship needs more work" is self explanatory as the airmanship aspects for the JAR PPL syllabus are detailed for each individual lesson. Simply look up what air exercise was covered and the airmanship aspect to which the instructor relates should be clear. Filling out student notes with unnecessary circumlocution is something which should be addressed at the FIC stage.

Personally, if I see things like: "...exercise 9 covered well..." in a students record, I feel content to move onto the next air exercise. Why would I want a complete match run down when all I am concerned with is whether the student is ready to move onto the next stage of the course? It will soon become evident how well the student can turn the aeroplane when we get airbourne.

There is no inclination on my part to question the previous instructors assessment if they deemed the exercise complete at the close of their last session, ergo the minutiae is superfluous to any future requirement surely? Padding out student records to clear yourself of any negligence would seem diligent should the AAIB ever need to trawl through them, but even so, a concise note detailing that an exercise was completed satisfactorily would hold you in better stead than a ton of waffle methinks!

Sadly there are some instructors around who are not confident enough in their own abilities as an instructor that they have to carte blanche in a student record just to show that they were indeed awake for that particular lesson. It is this type of instructor for which I have a certain dislike as they often hide their inadequacies behind pomposity. Food for thought?

Just a balance.

VFE.

[FlyingForFun]

Digital.poet,Just reading this thread, I am interested to know if any of you instructor types have ever actually gotten to the point where you have advised a student that they should give up learning to flyIn the world of PPL training, no.

People (on the whole) train towards the PPL for a hobby.

I had one particular student, a really lovely 80-year-old bloke. Couldn't fly to save his life. About 15 hours in, he was just starting to get the hang of climbing and descending. It was clear to everyone, him included, that he was never going to solo, let alone get his PPL.

One foggy day, I was chatting to him in the clubhouse. He told me: "I know I'm not a natural pilot, and it's going to be a very long time before I go solo, but I spend my life looking after my sick wife. The highlight of my week is coming for my flying lessons."

As far as I'm concerned, as long as a student understands the progress (or lack of progress) that he's making, and he's enjoying what he's doing, I'm happy to teach him.

For commercial students, though, who are spending money in the hope (or expectation) that they are going to get a job at the end of it, it's a different matter, and one which I have discussed on the odd occassion with my CFI but do not entirely agree with him on. But regardless of differences of opinion, one thing the CFI and I do agree on is that the student must be made aware if they are well below average.

FFF
----------------

[llanfairpg]

Thats why you need to sit down with a customer (a new word for some schools) and find out what they actually want to achieve from a course of flying lessons and the answer should form part of the students record.

Hands up how many schools/clubs do that?

Always remember EMI said The Beatles would never be a sucess

[Ex Oggie]

Yes, student records are a requirement, and are required to be kept for IIRC, six years. We keep ours at least ten years. They are also considered 'confidential' and are never left lying around or allowed to be seen by all & sundry.

Student records are an integral part of the relationship between the instructors and the student, in addition to ensuring that the syllabus is taught in a time & cost effective way. The minimum that the records should contain IMHO is (quote from SOP's)

"Just one or two words are not acceptable. The comments should include details of whether the exercise is completed, any areas of weakness, any areas that need revision, and also what the student has been advised to read up on for the next sortie. Also anything else relevant to the students progress, such as significant ground school, taxi practice, refuelling and Check A instruction is also required to be recorded. Once the bottom of the page is reached, the student must sign and date the form, as having been made aware of the comments made."

By signing the records, a student can never claim that you didn't tell him/her about areas of weakness or strengths. Also it is an opportune time to ratify the hours in the records against the hours in the students logbook, thereby catching errors early in the training, and not just before test.

Hopefully, this 2-way flow will give a student a greater insight into his progress and allow them to raise any concerns they may have.

Just my 1d worth.

XO

[lady in red]

What is written in student records should be treated by another instructor reading it as guidance only as to the student's ability and progress, since all sorts of factors may affect a student's performance, especially their relationship with the instructor.
When I learned to fly, I had an instructor who shouted at me all the time, so that I became more and more anxious about my apparent lack of ability and I completely froze on the controls. He wrote in my record "this woman will never learn to fly!"
I would like to see his face now if he knew that I am an FIC and FIE (fixed wing) and also teach people on helicopters....

[Whirlybird]

lady in red,

That's one very good reason for sticking only to the facts in student records, not opinions.

Your instructor could have written, "This student appears anxious, freezes on the controls, and so far is making little progress". It would have been quite accurate, and possibly useful to another instructor who would then know there were problems to be overcome.

"This woman will never learn to fly" would tell someone nothing useful about you, but a great deal about your previous instructor. :(

[Contacttower]

When I did a South African flight test I was horrified by the grading system...1 to 10 for every single element of the flight...from A check to crosswind landing to shutdown and securing of the plane...everything!

I noticed afterwards that the instructor had in fact just marked 6/10 for almost everything...so perhaps he wasn't paying much attention to the flight...or I'm a pretty average pilot. A completely different way to doing things to the 'tick in the box' for my JAA PPL skills test...it would be interesting to look back on a career of flying with each element of each flight test you ever did marked out of 10.

The flying school also had an internal grading of 1 to 5 for each flight done with an instructor...covering elements like 'procedures' and 'CRM & airmanship'...again very different from the approach I was used to in the UK.

[Whirlybird]

What exactly is the use of a grading system in the case of a private pilot?

He/she is not trying to compete with others to get to a university, or prove to some future employer how good he is.

He/she does not need to have a series a 'straight As' in order to get a PPL

He/she is not trying to win prizes.

They're simply trying to learn to fly, in order to have fun! For anyone going on to a CPL/ATPL - well, then maybe you need a grading system, maybe not, later on.

So all student records need to do is record the facts, for the benefit of a future instructor or anyone else who needs them. The facts. Grades and comments such as 'this man/woman will never learn to fly" are opinions. Do we need the opinions of opinionated flying instructors?

A desire for grades is nothing more than a symptom of this country's mania for grading and marking everything and everybody, to no useful purpose.

[BEagle]

"It would be easier to teach a pig to ride a bicycle than to teach this student to taxy an aeroplane"

"When this student says he has control, he lies!"

"When this student came to us to learn to fly, a village was deprived of an idiot"

"This student sets himself minimal standards. To which he rarely rises."

"Rarely have I experienced quite so many corners of the flight envelope as this student managed to find in what he alleged to be straight and level flight"

[llanfairpg]

Whirley everyone naturaly grades everyone and everything. Do you not say so and so is a good driver or the Indian restaurant is good/bad or indifferent.

The first thing an instructor wants to know on taking a student over is, is he/she any good. what student records do is provide that answer.

Grades 1 -10 never work because they allow too much ambiguity. you just need above average, average or needs more practice (in my opinion.)

Something I remember from the RAF which always made me laugh was

May well achieve the standard after considerable practice

[VFE]

Some schools and individuals within schools simply lurve the chance to sign, initial, date and act official over the simplest of things don't they? The slightest opportunity to chuck a bit of authoritative ink about on paper is greeted with open arms by some Captain Mainwaring types sadly knocking around the game. Big boys playing pilots syndrome masquarading under flimsy self-deluding titles like 'SOP's - I almost spat me dinner out after reading Ex Oggies details of 'sorties', dates, student signatures and so forth! I mean - 'SOPS' at a PPL school? Who are we kiddin' here?? :} :}

What ever happened to K.I.S.S?!?!

"Rarely have I experienced quite so many corners of the flight envelope as this student managed to find in what he alleged to be straight and level flight"

Priceless! :} :}

VFE.

[DFC]

Whirly,

Why do you link grading with competition?

He/she does not need to have a series a 'straight As' in order to get a PPL

He/she does have to demonstrate the required standard in order to be put forward for the test and again during the test in order to get a licence.

Grading simply is that - a clear comarison between the standard demonstrated and the standard required.

Perhaps what you really what to say is that there should only be two grades - meets the standard / doesn't meet the standard. However, it is hard to show progress in that case while still not quite demonstrating the required standard.

I doubt if many here has seen a properly developed flying course that has every element broken down into simple objective elements.

As an example -

Top up the oil;

a) Correctly determines the oil level
b) Knows the maximum and minimum quantity required
c) Selcets the correct grade of oil for the conditions
d) Adds the required amount and secures the cap
e) Makes appropriate entry oin tech log

Lots of clear elements that make up just the simple topping up of the oil. grade the new guy and they will score mostly Cs and Ds but once shown the task, there should be only As and Bs...........unless they forget then a C highlights the requirement for some refresher.

Just an example.

Grades are used in the PPL written tests. They demonstrate that the required standard has been met.

Regards,

DFC

[DFC]

VFE,

SOPs are used in almost every organisation. They may not be called SOPs but they are.

An example of an every day SOP is the time you are required to turn up for work and how many days holiday you get and what time lunch is and so on.............all SOPs.

SOPs are required to keep things standard. Very confusing for students when in the absence of SOPs everyone does their own thing.

Usually ends up with the student trying to operate in different ways with different instructors.

Individual pilots operating outside any organisation should have their own SOPs because it makes it easier to make critical decisions under pressure.

Having to come up with a procedure or minimum and at the same time establish if the flight can proceed under pressure from friends can often result in the procedure being less safe than what one would write down in the comfort and relaxing atmosphere of one's home.

Regards,

DFC

[VFE]

The day when I have to start ticking a thousand boxes just to show the student knows how to piss in the toilet without splattering the seat is the day I throw the towel in DFC. When the weight of the paper equals the weight of the aircraft can we go flying?

How to make a sows ear from a silk purse.

VFE.

[BEagle]

Won't that make the towel rather wet?

When HMFC first discovered computers, someone thought that, instead of narrative reports, a new system of tick sheets could be used, with scores from 1 to 9 for every item of the flight.

Our CFI refused to have anything to do with them. "What the hell is 'above average' taxying?", he asked. So firmly were these silly tick sheets opposed that we were allowed to have our own, simple version of recording the elements of a trip at the beginning of the folder (so it was easy to see at a glance when, for example, he/she last flew a steep turn or a flapless approach or whatever) - backed up by narrative comment.

Some months later, all the others who'd suffered these silly tick sheets threw them away and adopted our system.

We were required to comment 3 times a year on our students' overall progress, attitude and technique. One of my little buggers hadn't ever turned up, so all I wrote was "Who?". The CFI said that wasn't enough, I had to write more......

Acting Pilot Officer Bloggs:

Progress - Bloggs has not attended for flying once this term, so has made no progress.

Atttiude - Since I have never met Bloggs, I am unable to comment beyond stating that he obviously isn't terribly keen.

Technique - Unable to assess or comment.

"Hmm", said the CFI, "I see what you mean. Time to chop the little bugger!"

[llanfairpg]

I mean - 'SOPS' at a PPL school? Who are we kiddin' here??

Probably only yourself

[DFC]

VFE,

I can fit the entire PPL sylabus on 1.5 pages of A4 with room for expanded comments and signatures as well as times etc.

How much does 1 sheet of A4 weigh?

Comments are only required if D is given.

You can draw a line from top to bottom of the B column and sign the page. The next person can see the pilot is ready for test.

It also helps the new instructor understand that 6A and 6B are not lessons despite what their incorrect FIC handout or AOPA sylabus tells them.

6.1 and 6.2 are and 6.3 follows 6.2 and not 7 and 8.

Regards,

DFC

[VFE]

Having worked at a number of schools and not once been presented with anything remotely resembling company SOPs*, either written or verbal, one feels slightly pleased that the job is as yet largely free from the usual bureacracy endemic within many workplaces these days. It is one of the few positive things still going for this particular flying job that an instructor is permitted their own quality time with a student to acheive the 'objective' in a manner he/she deems fit. That is why we have a universally agreed assessment in the form of a skills test.

Airline language such as SOP's seems to be creaping into the world of the PPL more and more. A large part of it is down to the fact the instructors wish they were flying heavy metal instead of spamcans which is very sad indeed. Probably the same instructors who fly airliner style circuits, prefer teaching VOR tracking over real VFR navigation, sit polishing their shoes in between lessons ready for their next airline interview and spend the rest of their time thinking up increasing ways to overcomplicate something that's really quite simple.

When will people learn: if it ain't broke, don't fix it?

VFE.

*I have however read a few FOBs.

[Tmbstory]

VFE

I have read the above posts, some made me smile and some made me remember the arguments we had, on the same subject,50 years ago.

Have we really improved?

Tmb

[llanfairpg]

Probably the same instructors who fly airliner style circuits, prefer teaching VOR tracking over real VFR navigation, sit polishing their shoes in between lessons ready for their next airline interview and spend the rest of their time thinking up increasing ways to overcomplicate something that's really quite simple.

I fly airliners but prefer 800ft oval circuits, I prefer VFR navigation to VORs and hate GPS in small aircraft as a primary nav aid. I prefer Pilots Order Book to SOPs and understand what you mean VFE but there has to be written guidance its part of standardisation and I think professional instruction.

[VFE]

If the objectives of the syllabus are met where does this extra standardisation fall in? Surely the real problem lies with the small minority of instructors who do not understand the requirements of the syllabus and more importantly, how to teach them?

It all just sounds like another excuse to chip away at the freedom which attracts so many professional instructors and students into recreational flying. Understand the syllabus, know how to teach it and leave a comment in the student record stating whether the objective of the exercise was acheived, noting any extra information which may be beneficial to the next instructor. Aside from that? Leave it for the instructor room! ;)

VFE.

[llanfairpg]

Well for example our POB bans running starts or exiting or vacating an aircraft at anytime when the prop is running. You will not find that in a syllabus but it is a point of airmanship I think is very important. The rule may be constraining but it prevents accidents and thats my major area of interest.

[FlyingForFun]

VFE,

What is the difference between a FOB and SOPs, apart from the name?

My school, when I started working there, had a FOB. We then applied to the CAA for, and got, authorisatoin to carry out type-rating training. Despite the fact that this had absolutely no impact on my job (I am not rated on the type, let alone a TRI), the FOB had to be re-named in order to get this authorisation. Personally, I still call it the FOB (partly because I can't remember what it's supposed to be called), but it certainly contains standard procedures for operating the school's aircraft.....

You get the point.

FFF
-------------

[llanfairpg]

FFF
I think the probleml lays with human factors, some people just hate rules

[VFE]

I don't quite understand what the point of the matter is now, as alluded by FFF, the topic is being cloudied by semantics.

SOP's/FOB's..... I understand we need rules, I would've struggled getting where I am today by abusing them - my point is that they're already in place, some people just don't know where to look and in the case of some instructors, how to teach them. If you think a problem exists which clearer SOP's would eliminate then I guess it's a matter for your particular school? Aside from that, anything which makes us all safer is a positive thing so in that respect I would hope we're all singing from the same hymn sheet.

VFE.

[llanfairpg]

I would hope we're all singing from the same hymn sheet.

the very reason for SOPs POBs Ops Manuals,Memos. Checklists etc etc

[VFE]

So what was the point again? :} ;)

VFE.

[lady in red]

How is it that "the probleml lays with human factors" - what are you laying? A table or an egg? The problem LIES with human factors....get your verbs right please.

[VFE]

How is it that "the probleml lays with human factors" - what are you laying? A table or an egg? The problem LIES with human factors....get your verbs right please.

:} http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1jL-9S-oD8&feature=related :}

VFE.

[llanfairpg]

How is it that "the probleml lays with human factors" - what are you laying? A table or an egg? The problem LIES with human factors....get your verbs right please.

Hey Lady in Bed, what would you like me to lay?

[geordiejet]

I quite like the way my IR school kept student records when I was there.

You get a syllabus with all of the lessons 'pre planned' in a specific order.

There is also a section at the back for any additional lessons you may need.

I like is because there is a grading system (A to E I believe). Each part of the lesson will have a line, with the grading system. Which is nothing spectacular but good to have.

There is also a notes section, where you instructor honestly writes about your performace. The student then needs to sign to see she/he agrees and accepts what is said and also the targets for next lesson.

What I like is that the booklet is kepts by the student at all times. It is open and honest. There are no sly comments. And nothing is hidden. THe flight times are also detailed so you can compare your hours with the ops dept - no fear of being over charged for time you did not recieve.

Although I had a just a coupld of instructors, the book was great for just handing to one instructor to pick up on where the last instructor left off.

I also have it and keep referring to it - so I can work on the areas that I was not so strong on, or where confusion existed at the time.

[llanfairpg]

So your instructor didnt see your record till just before you had your briefing.Sounds a bit like the airline systym were you keep your record while training

[geordiejet]

The instructors seemed to regularly go through their students before handing over. For example, I woulld get a few days with instructor A and then one with instructor B.

They would meet you and have a fairly good idea of where you are at - they seemed to brief eachother really well before 'handing over' to the other instructor.

But the booklet was good to refresh their minds on what needs to be concentrated on. They also wrote notes on it too - like 'concentrate on interceptions', 'retake approach X' or 'practice single engine'. Quite a good system. When I did my PPL - I was told what to prepare for the next lesson, but had to read my instructor as to how I was performing.

Having it in black and white was very helpful, and knowing exactly what was going to happen the next lesson gave me a chance to pre-study for it.

[llanfairpg]

When I did my PPL - I was told what to prepare for the next lesson, but had to read my instructor as to how I was performing.

Not sure what you mean, you mean there were no records or you were never told how you were getting on?

[Cobalt]

When I did my PPL - I was told what to prepare for the next lesson, but had to read my instructor as to how I was performing. Not sure what you mean, you mean there were no records or you were never told how you were getting on?

He probably means

After landing, instructor leaves the aircraft while still on runway, not waiting for roll-out, runs off yelling incomprehensible gibberish and is never seen again - (F), consider giving up flying for the sake of yourself, your familiy, and just about everybody else on the ground

After landing, instructor is white as a sheet, hands are shaking, he doesn't say much at all - (E), below standard, work on just about everything

After landing, instructor gives a debrief in a quavering voice - (D), a few very rough edges, e.g., don't stall in your base-to-final turn ever again

After landing, instructor appears green around the gills, runs into the toilet and reemerges shortly after - (C), generally fine, but work on your rudder coordination and learn not to overcontrol the poor aeroplane too much

After landing, instructor walks with a spring in his step, chatting happily with you and tries to book a few more lessons immediately - (B), pretty damn good

After landing, instructor appears thoughtful and introvert, dosn't say much or mumbles "that was quite ok, really" - (A) you fly better than the instructor, who is humbled by your skills. Tone it down a bit.

:)

[llanfairpg]

You had some interesting instructors!

[DFC]

VFE,

You do not like Standard Operating Procedures SOPs which are (according to you) airline like and suited to the wanabee jet jockey (civil).

You do like the Flying Orders (in the FOB) which of course are a military thing and suited to the wanabee jet jockey (mil).

Does it look good when telling a new student who does not want to join a pseudo-military organisation that they must obey orders from on high to get their PPL?

Regards,

DFC

[geordiejet]

:}Haha. I like it! And I'm sure parts of what you say are true. Especially for grades D and E!

What I mean is - I trained in quite a busy school. So the instructor would dash from the aircraft upon stopping, run to the terminal, fill in my record sheet and log book, and by the time I secured the aircraft, and got myself in to the reception area, he would not say much - and was keen to get his next lesson underway. And I felt quite rushed - so would leave my questions until a later, quieter time - by which point I had forgotton most of things I wanted to ask!

With the booklet systsem - the instructor really just had to tick the boxes, write a few comments, and send me on my way. The thing is - his debriefs were always fantastic, but the 'booklet' system would have been much better for my PPL instruction.

[llanfairpg]

OK Geordie--thing is you would have had to wait around for that de-brief, a lot of our students who are taking time from work just couldnt do that(and its not acceptable anway).
I like the booklet idea, something we will look at but do you keep the booklet? What happens to that record after your final skills check?