Quick/cheap taildragger sign-off

[sick_bag]

Hi,
wondering if anyone knows of somewhere in the south-east where i could get a tailwheel sign-off quickly and cheaply? i need it for glider towing etc.

i know lots of schools offer 5 hrs training for this, which seems quite a lot -i have flown one once before and dont want to spend loads of money flying a type i'll probably never fly again - just get a signature in my book and then learn to fly the actual type i'll use..

any ideas?

cheers!

[formationfoto]

Most schools will only give you the level of training you require to justify a sign off. There is no fixed course so ability and experience will count to minimise the investment. If you have access to a machine you could try and find an instructor who will handle the sign off for you on the machine you are planning to fly.

Non one is going to sign you off if you aren't ready and tell you to go off and learn in your own time. That is the whole point of requiring differences training.

Whereabouts are you?

There are plenty of instructors around if you can get a machine. You dont require an examiner for the sign off - any instructir can do it - even the lowly CRI types (I am one so before any others start to post saying that CRI is a worthwhile etc etc etc - I know its!).

[Contacttower]

Of the ones I know...

White Waltham has a Super Cub if I remember rightly, Goodwood has a Super Decathlon (bit more expensive).

I did my tailwheel at Old Sarum in the Super Cub and I doubt you'll find a Group A taildragger cheaper than a Cub.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Tiger Club at Headcorn, cant get much more South East than that! :ok:

[stickandrudderman]

TPC at Denham MAY have a Citabria and instructor.

[robin]

Sickbag

I'm not sure you have the right attitude here - but I am open to being proved wrong.

You state that you have had one flight in a taildragger, but did you land it? With close to 400hrs of taildragger time and a few hundreds of gliding time, the tone of your posting worries me.

Glider tugging requires a degree of handling and skill not normally found in low-time pilots, especially if the tug is a tail dragger.

Courses and differences training will take as long as it will take - it might be 2-5 hours or you might never satisfy the instructor. In my group I have one pilot who will never fly solo in certain weather conditions, and accepts that fact.

[Arclite01]

Worried me too...........
Arc

[SNS3Guppy]

Quick and cheap are traits you don't want describing your flight training. Thorough and complete might be better.

If I fly with you, I won't charge you any more than absolutely necessary, but you also won't get away until I'm thoroughly satisfied that you're ready to go fly. That's the way it should be, anywhere you go.

I've spent a lot of time flying all kinds of tailwheel airplanes, from J-3's to currently an Air Tractor AT-802, and I'll tell you that no matter how proficient you think you are, there's always one more lesson to learn. The trick is staying tense enough to keep looking for that lesson before you learn it the hard way.

Cheap is never a positive thing in aviation. Inexpensive is not realistic. Quick sometimes works, but when you're talking about developing a foundation skill on which to build, take the time to do it right. Proper training, especially with something as fundamental as basic conventional gear skills, is essential. Everything you do in that airplane comes back to those skills. It's nothing to gloss over, and shouldn't be trivialized.

You may or may not fly that aircraft again but it's really irrelevant. The skills and abilities you learn and master apply universally...even to "nosedraggers."

Speed kills. Slow down and learn it right. The life you save may just be your own.

[Contacttower]

i need it for glider towing etc.


Sick bag just out of interest do you actually have an offer of a job for glider towing? Reason I ask is that the last taildragger tug I offered to fly (in New Zealand) apparently needed 500hrs tailwheel time for insurance reasons.

To be fair they don't come much cheaper or easier than the Super Cub, 5hrs is enough for most and its not a hard plane to fly...at all. (That's coming from someone who recently skidded off the runway in one. :p)

[Contacttower]

In my group I have one pilot who will never fly solo in certain weather conditions, and accepts that fact.

Robin may I ask what aircraft that is?

[robin]

Surprisingly it is a Cub.

The reason he won't fly solo in it is that he has difficulty in judging approaches and reacts too slowly when things start to go wrong - always a bad sign in a tail-dragger, but is happy to fly with a safety pilot.

On the other hand he loves the flying we do together and wants to stay with the group.

[Pitts2112]

"Any ideas?"

Yes. Don't do it. With the attitude you've displayed here, you're not cut out for flying, let alone flying a taildragger or (shudder) a towplane.

But, if you choose to go ahead in this manner, please NOTAM your flying schedule so we can voluntarily treat you like a moving RA(T).

Cheers and good luck,
Pitts2112

[Contacttower]

I think everyone is being a bit judgemental...I slightly doubt that sick bag really expects quick and easy from anything in aviation in reality. Surely someone with a PPL would know that by now!

Don't be put off by want some people have said, I'd do it, I'm sure you will have fun!

[First_Principal]

Seems to me sick bag has an issue where whatever (s)he is required to fly is not the same as what they'll likely get the rating in. I can see this is where the desire for a quick/cheap rating is coming from in the sense that it seems like a comparatively useless rating.

That said, and with no doubt whatsoever, the comments that have followed with respect to taildraggers are very, very, pertinent. These machines are so different in their operation that I would consider 5 hours to be an absolute minimum requirement just to get your head around the way they work. If you're then going to tow something as well you'd want something more than that I should think.

I've got a lot less taildragger hours than many of the posters here, but certainly more than 5 hours with ratings on 3 (taildragger) machines and I always experience a small frisson of fear when I'm on approach - as someone else described a tensing in readiness of what may happen. I've managed some fairly scary vertical challenges on two (some good bounces, Cub & C-47) and some lateral digressions (fortunately incomplete ground loops, Cub & Maule) on two. They _will_ get away on you if you're not ready for it. Even if you think you're on top of it they can still bite you when you're least expecting it. As has no doubt been said before taildragger landings are not complete until the machine is shut down and parked in the hangar.

Finally, despite all the comments, they are a fantastic machine to fly. The challenge is certainly there over & above a tricycle machine for t/o & landing and most of them will require a lot more (anticipative) rudder input
all of which can only improve your skill levels. So don't treat the 5 hours or so as a chore to get through - make the most of it and seize the opportunity. There are many people who will never get to fly them because they are becoming a rarity, and of course due to the challenging nature of them owners and insurers are increasingly reluctant to allow any sort of training in them. Funny to think that not too many years ago they were all that was used for ab-initio training...

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How does your " rating " system work?

Do you need a rating on every different tail wheel airplane you fly?

[Contacttower]

How does your " rating " system work?

Do you need a rating on every different tail wheel airplane you fly?


In the UK there is no 'rating' system along the line of say South Africa where you need a sign off for each different type...PA28, C152, PA18 etc you fly. One's SEP rating is enough to clear you onto all SEP...unless they have features requiring extra endorsements, like a tailwheel for example (or a CS prop, retractable gear etc). That tailwheel endorsement clears you onto all taildraggers provided they don't have any other 'differences' that you don't yet have signed off by an instructor in your logbook.

People talk of 'ratings' for light aircraft, but in JAA land at least (or EASA land as it is soon to be known :E) within the SEP class there is no such thing.

[A185F]

Yep agree with First Principal (cub maule and dak aye...).
Learnin to fly the ol taildragger is not something one should take lightly :=

The rating system here in NZ is where you must have a type rating on EVERY aircraft type be it GA, microlite, airliner whatever. New rules will be that all type ratings will have to be done through a part 141 training organisation which is goin to cause problems when people want ratings in anything other that a PA28, PA38, C152, C172 etc etc :ugh:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Seriously, you will need separate type ratings for the Cessna 152 and the 172?

Is your CAA run by total morons?

In that case I would need so many type ratings it would take all year just to do the check rides.

Hell I can't even remember how many different tail wheel airplanes I have flown.

[Gipsy Queen]

I'm afraid that the Freedom to Fly Act, 2007 has come too late to help me get my job back but Sick Bag's posting has caused me to realise that being earthbound does have its compensations!

GQ. :ok:

[First_Principal]

Seriously, you will need separate type ratings for the Cessna 152 and the 172?

Yep, even worse we require separate ratings for C150 & C152 :rolleyes:

Oddly type ratings are issued for the PA-28 series thus allowing the full range of models to be flown on the one rating (with the exception of the 'R' I think). Seems to me there's a greater difference 'tween a PA28-140 & say a 181 or 235 than a 150 vs 152 so I don't think it's all that consistent a system.

I have no problem with rating requirements for significantly different types, clearly a very sensible thing, but to have to do a 1hr type rating on a 152 when one has say 75 or more on a 150 :ugh:

Anyway, I digress, no argument with tailwheel vs nosewheel, do whatever it takes, enjoy it and learn from the experience. I'll bet those 5 hours or so will have a much greater instrinsic value than almost anything else one does!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The differences between nose wheel and tail wheel airplanes is greatly over exaggerated.

However the difference between learning to fly a helicopter compared to an airplane is signifigant.

Two of the easiest tail wheel airplanes to fly are both 3's.....the J3 and the DC3.

[foxmoth]

I can do you a tailwheel sign off if you have the aircraft. If you fly it OK then I will sign it, but this will need to include things like crosswind landings, I suspect if you have only flown a tailwheel once then you will actually need a bit more than just a single check flight.:cool:

[kiwi chick]

Well...! This post had me shaking my head too.... :ugh:

Why not do the rating in the SAME plane you'll be flying?! Is that a silly question? :confused:

[Studefather]

Single seater?? Pawnee??

[sick_bag]

hello everyone, wow - that was quick!

some good suggestions for places to look at there - thanks very much for that.

as for my attitude to aviation - pitts 2112 and others - thanks for your concern chaps but if you knew the first thing about me or my background, you'd appreciate just how wrong you are :ok:

this is just a particular problem where i need a tailwheel signature in my book as painlessly as possible, so i can then go learn to fly this glider tug. the glider flying outfit cant do this for me, otherwise i'd do that, clearly.

i flew a cap10 a couple of years ago (which seemed to be drama free - although it was in benign conditions and i believe its quite a forgiving one as taildraggers go) and i should have flown it again and got it signed off back then, but didnt..

cheers!!

[SNS3Guppy]

The differences between nose wheel and tail wheel airplanes is greatly over exaggerated.

However the difference between learning to fly a helicopter compared to an airplane is signifigant.

Two of the easiest tail wheel airplanes to fly are both 3's.....the J3 and the DC3.


Differences are irrelevant, as are helicopters. What is relevant is the need to obtain proper training in the operation of conventional gear aircraft. Even the "easy" cub will kill you just as dead.

[Contacttower]

sick bag may I offer a word of advice....make sure your instructor has lots of time on tailwheels, in tandem cockpit aircraft it is sometimes hard for the instructor to see exactly what the student is doing and generally speaking a Cub for example is probably harder to teach in than say the C152 from the practical point of view.

So make sure your instructor is a good one!

[Pitts2112]

Sickbag,
No problem. I'm happy to be proven wrong. But I'll also be interested to hear your take on it after you get a season of flying the tug under your belt.
Good luck in any capacity (and don't forget the NOTAMs, please.) :)

[Gipsy Queen]

"Two of the easiest tail wheel airplanes to fly are both 3's.....the J3 and the DC3."

Agreed, Chuck, but at least you can do a take-off roll in the J3 without having to follow the DI and you don't have to remember the tailwheel lock - those shear-pins got expensive after a while! Things very foreign to the younger generations.

GQ.

[micromalc]

I'd go for the Tiger club at Headcorn (super-cub). But take your time, TDing is an art not to be rushed.

[SNS3Guppy]

Things very foreign to the younger generations.


Plenty of stuff out there today that still has a lockable tailwheel.

[robin]

>>>>>this is just a particular problem where i need a tailwheel signature in my book as painlessly as possible, so i can then go learn to fly this glider tug. the glider flying outfit cant do this for me, otherwise i'd do that, clearly.

i flew a cap10 a couple of years ago (which seemed to be drama free - although it was in benign conditions and i believe its quite a forgiving one as taildraggers go) and i should have flown it again and got it signed off back then, but didnt..<<<<<

Ok sick bag, you can stop the wind up now. We've all bitten........:ugh:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

SNS3Guppy:

I was not advising people not to get proper training, I was making an observation that there is a tendency for people to over state the difficulty of learning to fly tail wheel airplanes.

When I first started flying we were taught on tail wheel airplanes because that was all there was avalable.

I finished my license in 30 hours which was was what was required at that time.

You say::::

Differences are irrelevant, as are helicopters. What is relevant is the need to obtain proper training in the operation of conventional gear aircraft. Even the "easy" cub will kill you just as dead.

I say:::::

So will walking across a busy street, so will wanking to much, so will a lot of things.

What is your point?

[Contacttower]

sick bag....you wanted cheap, the CAP 10?....I really doubt it!

Super Cub is definitely the one to go for!

[sick_bag]

fair point - it was cheap at the time! it belonged to a mate (who has an FI rating) but he's since sold it - shame!!!!!

would love to fly the cub actually. also, denham is near me, so i'll see what they've got...

robin - this post was just just intended to find a flying school with a taildragger where i can do some training asap - i've got better things to do that wind you up old son :)

[J.A.F.O.]

As this is PPrune I must point out that you will also need significant training and a sign-off for your Capital Letter Differences.

Cubs, Super and otherwise, are great fun. If Sibson isn't too far try NSF, but I'm sorry to inform you that they will make sure that you do it the right way rather than the cheap way.

[SNS3Guppy]

I was not advising people not to get proper training, I was making an observation that there is a tendency for people to over state the difficulty of learning to fly tail wheel airplanes.


I agree wholeheartedly; there is no different skill nor technique required in flying a conventional gear airplane. Just proper technique. What gets people into trouble in convention gear is either a failure to take the airplane seriously and fly it until it's tied down, or who bring poor skills to the table. Those poor skills can be hidden and unrealized in a nosegear equipped airplane, but are generally more readily apparent with the use of the tailwheel.

You say::::

Differences are irrelevant, as are helicopters. What is relevant is the need to obtain proper training in the operation of conventional gear aircraft. Even the "easy" cub will kill you just as dead.

I say:::::

So will walking across a busy street, so will wanking to much, so will a lot of things.

What is your point?


My point remains the same as my first post; take the training seriously. Too often individuals believe that a cub flies slowly and is easy to fly, and therefore don't take it as seriously as something bigger and faster. My response is to take it seriously. After all, lay side by side the bodies of pilots killed in a J-3, a B747, an AT-502, and a F-18, and tell me which is more dead.

Like the saying goes, the cub is safe and easy, it will only kill you slowly.

[Contacttower]

Interesting...I was reviewing The Compleat Taildragger Pilot today and Harvey S. Plourde who wrote it suggests more like 10hrs is a reasonable time to convert to conventional gear...covering everything, 3 pointers, wheelers, tarmac (if you fly from grass mainly), crosswinds and general handling to get the feel of the plane. Perhaps that is more realistic and comprehensive than the 5hrs suggested by most clubs.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The bottom line is there is no " one size fits all " answer as to how long it will take an individual to become safe enough to sign off on a conventional gear airplane.

The decision must be made by the instructor, so find one who is well known for their expertise in teaching on conventional gear machines.

That may save you time and money.

[First_Principal]

"The bottom line is there is no " one size fits all " answer as to how long it will take"

I quite agree - was just about to reply to Contacttower's post with my experience: I was told it would take less than 5 hours for my conversion on a Cub) but my recollection is that it took more like 6-7 hours, or thereabouts, before the instructor signed my book. As much as I wanted that signature I fully appreciated that he wouldn't sign until he felt I was ready for it. To me that signature was just a licence to learn, and I've a lot of learning still to do. To add to the story, another pilot did his conversion at around the same time as me, unfortunately for him he managed a spectacular crash after ground-looping the same Cub with, I think, a little less than 10 hours on type. Happily he was ok but the 'plane was a write-off and an example of just what can happen in an instant, particularly in a tail-dragger.

So maybe some (few) people will do it in an hour or so, others perhaps never will - where I fly from there are two or three licenced pilots converting to a taildragger that will possibly have more than 15 hours before being signed off, if at all. One may never (economically) get a rating. It's disapointing and frustrating for them - and for those of use who know them well - but it's another example that supports Chuck's post; in these cases the school is heeding that call and will only sign them out when they are ready for it, not at the magical 5 or 10 hour number.

[Contacttower]

Quite First_Principal that was my experience too, was told about 5hrs as a ballpark figure but in reality it took about 7hrs before the actual signature. As Chuck and others say, it is frustrating but the answer to 'how long does it take?' really does have a 'how long is a piece of string?' answer.

I commented on the 10hrs suggested in the book because a lot of clubs state (like mine for example) on their websites 'five hours training' which is often unrealistic.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

First_ Principal I have been checking out pilots on conventional gear airplanes for over fifty years on everything from Cubs to the C117 and have learned that some of those who had the most difficult time getting comfortable with it ended up safer than some of the hot shots who did it in a short time.

The best benchmark for each of you is keep learning and then someday you may look back and be satisfied that you never let one fly you. :ok: :E :D

By the way my dream would be to someday own my own Stearman.....started my commercial career flying them crop dusting....