Quick/cheap taildragger sign-off
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: the priory
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quick/cheap taildragger sign-off
Hi,
wondering if anyone knows of somewhere in the south-east where i could get a tailwheel sign-off quickly and cheaply? i need it for glider towing etc.
i know lots of schools offer 5 hrs training for this, which seems quite a lot -i have flown one once before and dont want to spend loads of money flying a type i'll probably never fly again - just get a signature in my book and then learn to fly the actual type i'll use..
any ideas?
cheers!
wondering if anyone knows of somewhere in the south-east where i could get a tailwheel sign-off quickly and cheaply? i need it for glider towing etc.
i know lots of schools offer 5 hrs training for this, which seems quite a lot -i have flown one once before and dont want to spend loads of money flying a type i'll probably never fly again - just get a signature in my book and then learn to fly the actual type i'll use..
any ideas?
cheers!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tailwheel sign off
Most schools will only give you the level of training you require to justify a sign off. There is no fixed course so ability and experience will count to minimise the investment. If you have access to a machine you could try and find an instructor who will handle the sign off for you on the machine you are planning to fly.
Non one is going to sign you off if you aren't ready and tell you to go off and learn in your own time. That is the whole point of requiring differences training.
Whereabouts are you?
There are plenty of instructors around if you can get a machine. You dont require an examiner for the sign off - any instructir can do it - even the lowly CRI types (I am one so before any others start to post saying that CRI is a worthwhile etc etc etc - I know its!).
Non one is going to sign you off if you aren't ready and tell you to go off and learn in your own time. That is the whole point of requiring differences training.
Whereabouts are you?
There are plenty of instructors around if you can get a machine. You dont require an examiner for the sign off - any instructir can do it - even the lowly CRI types (I am one so before any others start to post saying that CRI is a worthwhile etc etc etc - I know its!).
Fly Conventional Gear
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of the ones I know...
White Waltham has a Super Cub if I remember rightly, Goodwood has a Super Decathlon (bit more expensive).
I did my tailwheel at Old Sarum in the Super Cub and I doubt you'll find a Group A taildragger cheaper than a Cub.
White Waltham has a Super Cub if I remember rightly, Goodwood has a Super Decathlon (bit more expensive).
I did my tailwheel at Old Sarum in the Super Cub and I doubt you'll find a Group A taildragger cheaper than a Cub.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sickbag
I'm not sure you have the right attitude here - but I am open to being proved wrong.
You state that you have had one flight in a taildragger, but did you land it? With close to 400hrs of taildragger time and a few hundreds of gliding time, the tone of your posting worries me.
Glider tugging requires a degree of handling and skill not normally found in low-time pilots, especially if the tug is a tail dragger.
Courses and differences training will take as long as it will take - it might be 2-5 hours or you might never satisfy the instructor. In my group I have one pilot who will never fly solo in certain weather conditions, and accepts that fact.
I'm not sure you have the right attitude here - but I am open to being proved wrong.
You state that you have had one flight in a taildragger, but did you land it? With close to 400hrs of taildragger time and a few hundreds of gliding time, the tone of your posting worries me.
Glider tugging requires a degree of handling and skill not normally found in low-time pilots, especially if the tug is a tail dragger.
Courses and differences training will take as long as it will take - it might be 2-5 hours or you might never satisfy the instructor. In my group I have one pilot who will never fly solo in certain weather conditions, and accepts that fact.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quick and cheap are traits you don't want describing your flight training. Thorough and complete might be better.
If I fly with you, I won't charge you any more than absolutely necessary, but you also won't get away until I'm thoroughly satisfied that you're ready to go fly. That's the way it should be, anywhere you go.
I've spent a lot of time flying all kinds of tailwheel airplanes, from J-3's to currently an Air Tractor AT-802, and I'll tell you that no matter how proficient you think you are, there's always one more lesson to learn. The trick is staying tense enough to keep looking for that lesson before you learn it the hard way.
Cheap is never a positive thing in aviation. Inexpensive is not realistic. Quick sometimes works, but when you're talking about developing a foundation skill on which to build, take the time to do it right. Proper training, especially with something as fundamental as basic conventional gear skills, is essential. Everything you do in that airplane comes back to those skills. It's nothing to gloss over, and shouldn't be trivialized.
You may or may not fly that aircraft again but it's really irrelevant. The skills and abilities you learn and master apply universally...even to "nosedraggers."
Speed kills. Slow down and learn it right. The life you save may just be your own.
If I fly with you, I won't charge you any more than absolutely necessary, but you also won't get away until I'm thoroughly satisfied that you're ready to go fly. That's the way it should be, anywhere you go.
I've spent a lot of time flying all kinds of tailwheel airplanes, from J-3's to currently an Air Tractor AT-802, and I'll tell you that no matter how proficient you think you are, there's always one more lesson to learn. The trick is staying tense enough to keep looking for that lesson before you learn it the hard way.
Cheap is never a positive thing in aviation. Inexpensive is not realistic. Quick sometimes works, but when you're talking about developing a foundation skill on which to build, take the time to do it right. Proper training, especially with something as fundamental as basic conventional gear skills, is essential. Everything you do in that airplane comes back to those skills. It's nothing to gloss over, and shouldn't be trivialized.
You may or may not fly that aircraft again but it's really irrelevant. The skills and abilities you learn and master apply universally...even to "nosedraggers."
Speed kills. Slow down and learn it right. The life you save may just be your own.
Fly Conventional Gear
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i need it for glider towing etc.
To be fair they don't come much cheaper or easier than the Super Cub, 5hrs is enough for most and its not a hard plane to fly...at all. (That's coming from someone who recently skidded off the runway in one.
)
Fly Conventional Gear
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my group I have one pilot who will never fly solo in certain weather conditions, and accepts that fact.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surprisingly it is a Cub.
The reason he won't fly solo in it is that he has difficulty in judging approaches and reacts too slowly when things start to go wrong - always a bad sign in a tail-dragger, but is happy to fly with a safety pilot.
On the other hand he loves the flying we do together and wants to stay with the group.
The reason he won't fly solo in it is that he has difficulty in judging approaches and reacts too slowly when things start to go wrong - always a bad sign in a tail-dragger, but is happy to fly with a safety pilot.
On the other hand he loves the flying we do together and wants to stay with the group.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Massachusetts Bay Colony
Age: 57
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Any ideas?"
Yes. Don't do it. With the attitude you've displayed here, you're not cut out for flying, let alone flying a taildragger or (shudder) a towplane.
But, if you choose to go ahead in this manner, please NOTAM your flying schedule so we can voluntarily treat you like a moving RA(T).
Cheers and good luck,
Pitts2112
Yes. Don't do it. With the attitude you've displayed here, you're not cut out for flying, let alone flying a taildragger or (shudder) a towplane.
But, if you choose to go ahead in this manner, please NOTAM your flying schedule so we can voluntarily treat you like a moving RA(T).
Cheers and good luck,
Pitts2112
Fly Conventional Gear
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think everyone is being a bit judgemental...I slightly doubt that sick bag really expects quick and easy from anything in aviation in reality. Surely someone with a PPL would know that by now!
Don't be put off by want some people have said, I'd do it, I'm sure you will have fun!
Don't be put off by want some people have said, I'd do it, I'm sure you will have fun!
Seems to me sick bag has an issue where whatever (s)he is required to fly is not the same as what they'll likely get the rating in. I can see this is where the desire for a quick/cheap rating is coming from in the sense that it seems like a comparatively useless rating.
That said, and with no doubt whatsoever, the comments that have followed with respect to taildraggers are very, very, pertinent. These machines are so different in their operation that I would consider 5 hours to be an absolute minimum requirement just to get your head around the way they work. If you're then going to tow something as well you'd want something more than that I should think.
I've got a lot less taildragger hours than many of the posters here, but certainly more than 5 hours with ratings on 3 (taildragger) machines and I always experience a small frisson of fear when I'm on approach - as someone else described a tensing in readiness of what may happen. I've managed some fairly scary vertical challenges on two (some good bounces, Cub & C-47) and some lateral digressions (fortunately incomplete ground loops, Cub & Maule) on two. They _will_ get away on you if you're not ready for it. Even if you think you're on top of it they can still bite you when you're least expecting it. As has no doubt been said before taildragger landings are not complete until the machine is shut down and parked in the hangar.
Finally, despite all the comments, they are a fantastic machine to fly. The challenge is certainly there over & above a tricycle machine for t/o & landing and most of them will require a lot more (anticipative) rudder input
all of which can only improve your skill levels. So don't treat the 5 hours or so as a chore to get through - make the most of it and seize the opportunity. There are many people who will never get to fly them because they are becoming a rarity, and of course due to the challenging nature of them owners and insurers are increasingly reluctant to allow any sort of training in them. Funny to think that not too many years ago they were all that was used for ab-initio training...
That said, and with no doubt whatsoever, the comments that have followed with respect to taildraggers are very, very, pertinent. These machines are so different in their operation that I would consider 5 hours to be an absolute minimum requirement just to get your head around the way they work. If you're then going to tow something as well you'd want something more than that I should think.
I've got a lot less taildragger hours than many of the posters here, but certainly more than 5 hours with ratings on 3 (taildragger) machines and I always experience a small frisson of fear when I'm on approach - as someone else described a tensing in readiness of what may happen. I've managed some fairly scary vertical challenges on two (some good bounces, Cub & C-47) and some lateral digressions (fortunately incomplete ground loops, Cub & Maule) on two. They _will_ get away on you if you're not ready for it. Even if you think you're on top of it they can still bite you when you're least expecting it. As has no doubt been said before taildragger landings are not complete until the machine is shut down and parked in the hangar.
Finally, despite all the comments, they are a fantastic machine to fly. The challenge is certainly there over & above a tricycle machine for t/o & landing and most of them will require a lot more (anticipative) rudder input
all of which can only improve your skill levels. So don't treat the 5 hours or so as a chore to get through - make the most of it and seize the opportunity. There are many people who will never get to fly them because they are becoming a rarity, and of course due to the challenging nature of them owners and insurers are increasingly reluctant to allow any sort of training in them. Funny to think that not too many years ago they were all that was used for ab-initio training...
Fly Conventional Gear
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How does your " rating " system work?
Do you need a rating on every different tail wheel airplane you fly?
Do you need a rating on every different tail wheel airplane you fly?
People talk of 'ratings' for light aircraft, but in JAA land at least (or EASA land as it is soon to be known
) within the SEP class there is no such thing.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Behind the stick
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep agree with First Principal (cub maule and dak aye...).
Learnin to fly the ol taildragger is not something one should take lightly
The rating system here in NZ is where you must have a type rating on EVERY aircraft type be it GA, microlite, airliner whatever. New rules will be that all type ratings will have to be done through a part 141 training organisation which is goin to cause problems when people want ratings in anything other that a PA28, PA38, C152, C172 etc etc
Learnin to fly the ol taildragger is not something one should take lightly
The rating system here in NZ is where you must have a type rating on EVERY aircraft type be it GA, microlite, airliner whatever. New rules will be that all type ratings will have to be done through a part 141 training organisation which is goin to cause problems when people want ratings in anything other that a PA28, PA38, C152, C172 etc etc
Last edited by A185F; 13th Dec 2007 at 01:22.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seriously, you will need separate type ratings for the Cessna 152 and the 172?
Is your CAA run by total morons?
In that case I would need so many type ratings it would take all year just to do the check rides.
Hell I can't even remember how many different tail wheel airplanes I have flown.
Is your CAA run by total morons?
In that case I would need so many type ratings it would take all year just to do the check rides.
Hell I can't even remember how many different tail wheel airplanes I have flown.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Looking for the signals square at LHR
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm afraid that the Freedom to Fly Act, 2007 has come too late to help me get my job back but Sick Bag's posting has caused me to realise that being earthbound does have its compensations!
GQ.
GQ.
Seriously, you will need separate type ratings for the Cessna 152 and the 172?
Oddly type ratings are issued for the PA-28 series thus allowing the full range of models to be flown on the one rating (with the exception of the 'R' I think). Seems to me there's a greater difference 'tween a PA28-140 & say a 181 or 235 than a 150 vs 152 so I don't think it's all that consistent a system.
I have no problem with rating requirements for significantly different types, clearly a very sensible thing, but to have to do a 1hr type rating on a 152 when one has say 75 or more on a 150
Anyway, I digress, no argument with tailwheel vs nosewheel, do whatever it takes, enjoy it and learn from the experience. I'll bet those 5 hours or so will have a much greater instrinsic value than almost anything else one does!