GULF AIR foresees TRISTARS,the only way out

[alien779]

Just heard the other day gf is getting a good deal on getting 10 tristars for a million bucks each.
where would you get a deal like that.
Delta airlines are pleased to offload them anyday.
GO GULF AIR GO !!!!!!!

Just don't drop inflight debri on any body,e.g. flaps,engines etc.

Tristars belong in the graveyard by now????

[The Guvnor]

Nothing wrong with L1011: the -500 is probably the best designed and built aircraft, ever.

$1m is an absolute bargain price - think how many you could buy for the cost of a 767; or how much extra fuel you could pay for with the savings!

Stand by for a major resurrection of L10s in the not too distant future! :D :eek: :D

[sabenapilot]

Guvnor,

Weren't these supposed to become your L-1011s? I sure think so! :rolleyes:

Only 1 million dollars per plane... :eek:
Does that mean you weren't even able to scrape together one lousy million dollars to buy a L-1011? I thought this would be peanuts for a self proclamed experienced guy like you! After all: aren't you the one that always tries to make us believe how very well connected you are? :confused:

Boy, you really are a big looser then! :D

[The Guvnor]

If it's happening, my money is on those being the SV aircraft. The DL ones require substantial investment to put them back in the air. You're obviously not really in the airline industry, tolipanebasotherwise you'd be aware of basic things like maintenance checks, engine overhauls, life limited parts, etc etc ... and their cost! :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

[Kalium Chloride]

Why would GF be after L1011s? :confused:

[sabenapilot]

Fact remains that you clearly failed on several occasions where others apparently did not... :p

I think that's pretty much the definition of a born looser, don't you think so too? :D

[Magplug]

Guvnor you really do talk a load of bollox! The L1011 is heavy metal and totally uneconomical in this day and age.

I have no doubt as to why your hairbrained schemes never got off the ground !!! :eek:

[sabenapilot]

Guvnor,

If you are such an expert on technical matters, then how come we never see a single post from you on any of the technical forums? ;)

People sure would be delighted to benefit from your professional views on maintenance and operating procedures too...

On second thoughts, I suppose your technical knowledge is probably as solid as your managerial, so maybe your being quiet is the best after all. :D

[ive348]

Why on earth would an airline like Gulf Air be after Tristars, if there are plenty of more modern (an less fuel burning) planes available.
(I happen to know of some airbus A330/A340 in Brussels that aren't used at the time)

[BAE146]

Gulf Air love reliving the past.they pulled this stunt in '96 when they refitted a couple of the parked 1011s in AUH. Most of them had bad corrosion and they flew on the line for about three months in total. see when you don't have to worry about where your next quid is coming from you can squander money til the camels come home. when things get desperate GF are the exponents in crisis management.

this will be bigger than Ben Hur - watch this space!!!!!!!!

[MOR]

tolipanebas

Another Belgian who can't spell... in fact, the Guvnor makes a lot more sense than you do, and seeing as you clearly like to back losers (hint for others: spell his/her username backwards), perhaps you should desist from guv-bashing until you understand a little more about the cost of operating aircraft... :rolleyes:

[Second Segment]

L1011-500...best aircraft ever designed and built? possibly why it had to be returned to Locheed(?) for additional mods to attain it's stated range/payload !! Build quality at Burbank was never up to much!!

[411A]

Actually second segment, they were all built at Palmdale, strange as it may seem...

[Epsom Hold 2]

Go MOR; tolipanebas go around.

[Rollingthunder]

Fuel costs at low for the moment ( wish I could predict rises and falls but it seems to be more mystical than logical). Prolonged lowering of fuel costs may make, (it's a narrow margin), Lockheed's fine machine,possibly a goer even after return to service and C checks (don't buy if it needs a D check)(have really smart marketing).

However there seem to be very many twins with similar capacity and even greater fuel efficency available now in a desert somewhere.

The publics memory is short term, Afganistan is a long way away, and they rarely know what airframe they are flying on.

I can see a bright future, the train from NYC to London has never arrived.

[MasterGreen]

The Tristar is a lovely airplane. A little complex perhaps and needs TLC. However, the punters like it. Range is an issue, as is fuel burn. However here is a little ditty you may like.

Queen of the Skies

There's a sorry, tired Tristar on the blocks at GamCo Two;
It's been there now for seven days or more.
She's the queen of that damned hanger, and they all call her a banger.
And there's talk of sending all her parts to store.

It's a sad and sorry tale, of this road to aircraft hell;
Of the good times and the bad times of the past.
Of the people that she flew, and the pilots that she knew
took care to make the spars and engines last.

When at first she came alive, in Orlando seventy five;
When electrics surged first through her wire veins.
Oh her paintwork gleamed so bright, as they pulled her to the light,
from the hanger to join the other planes.

How she towered over most, and it was no idle boast;
That in cruise she would better point eight seven.
With those three great Rolls Royce fans, and a pair of able hands;
She was Lockheed's answer to a pilot's heaven.

The passengers she flew, and others said they knew;
That the ride up high was smooth and you could talk.
When offered aircraft choice, they always had one voice;
Tristar please, or else we'll damn well walk.

Now the L10 of this tale, whom we'll get to know quite well;
was destined for a Middle Eastern Airline.
She was brought with oil money, though no-one thought that funny;
It was cash and it paid the bills just fine.

They equipped her with the best, with a rare and cunning zest;
of knowing what the punter really needed.
With a bar up there in first, you could quench your traveler’s thirst,
or sleep, the miles passing quite unheeded.

As the years passed slowly by, she did nothing much but fly
London, Gulf, London, the odd Far East.
She was used on Bombay's rarely, since one could say quite fairly,
that here she got appreciation least.

But before she got much older, she was often asked to shoulder,
burdens other aircraft never took.
They flew her every day, in the most appalling way.
And the engineers just threw away the book.

Now she's only made of metal, but she really showed her fettle.
This treatment lasted some say, many a year.
Management no longer cared, how she looked or how she fared,
Profits, Load and Yield their only fear.



As the years went on and by, there were those with a caring eye
who could see what was soon to come to pass.
If they didn't stop the rot, and start caring quite a lot,
they would lose one and that would burn some ass.

The Tristar of this story, refused to lose her glory,
On a mountain side or muddy German plain.
She was made with pride and care, and it wasn't damn well fair,
if she wasn't loved she'd never fly again.

So there started fun and games, with breakers, fuel and frames;
The engines often failed to start at all.
Commercial tore their hair, and Planning began to swear,
but no-one read the writing on the wall.

There's a sorry, tired Tristar on the blocks at Gamco Two;
It's been there now for seven days or more.
She's the queen of that damned hanger, and they all call her a banger.
And there's talk of sending all her parts to store.

abridged - <c> 1992 KBS

[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: MasterGreen ]

[sirwa69]

This is a new one!
Have not heard anything at all about this.
Gulf Air do have a lot of experience flying Tristars and still have a lot of pilots who flew them. More importantly they still have some pilots who were originally Tristar engineers, so conceivably they could crew them from current resources.
However if there was any truth in this rumour I would have expected to have heard from the many Tristar lovers I was partying with last night :confused:
I will investigate further :rolleyes: :D

[The Guvnor]

MasterGreen - never seen that particular offering before - fairly tore at the old heart strings! *sniff* :(

Yep, GF didn't look after their aircraft at all. George Batchelor bought some which were converted to freighters and the balance were acquired by Intercredit. Two airframes were broken up by Marshalls last year - they were apparently completely rotten.

Second Segment - you're actually thinking of the MD11. The L15 delivered and then some ... and still does!

Rollingthunder - agreed re twins, but if you want to fly long overwater or remote routes and don't have ETOPS certification (obviously not applicable in GF's case) then the L10 is the way to go. The RB211-524B4s have 15% lower fuel burn than the CF6-50C2; and anyway, the punters prefer to have extra engines - and every pilot who has ever flown the aircraft waxes lyrical about the roomy flight deck and handling characteristics! :D :D

[FREDA]

Also, even a very tired B767-200 is gonna set you back more ten times that amount (think 20 and you're nearer) and they aren't being parked at the rate that B74s and DC10s are.

[The Guvnor]

Freda - Have I got a deal for you! I can sell you today, cash on the table, B767-200s for under US$10m. ER aircraft will cost significantly more than that though.

Interested? ;) :eek: ;)

[locky]

Even though Lockheeds are definatley "non" fuel efficient... they are a solid military inspired aircraft worthy of all our praise!!! :D

[gumbi]

Locky, I'm sooooo proud of you!

L10's all the way!

Anyone who has ever flown a Tristar understands it's a love story!

[Photo Finish]

Is this creative accountancy to prop up Gamco, or the long rumoured start of an international airline owned by the emirate of Abu Dhabi? Remember that the other owners of GF all have their own international airlines.

[BEagle]

If they're really quick, perhaps Gulf Air would like to buy their old VC10s back from the RAF? I flew the last ex-Gulf Air one over to its final resting place earlier this year, but it might not have been turned into saucepans just yet.............

[scanscanscan]

Please correct me if I am wrong... But is there not a financial arrangement in place where AUH effectively will gain total control of Gulf Air if sums of money they have lent the Airline are not repaid on the due date?

[Willit Run]

I must defend the Tri-Star!!
I spent 4 years on it, never shucked an engine, flew it all over the world. Anyone who has ever spent any amout of time on the lovely lady, has nothing but good words for her. If I could spend the next 20 years flying a tri-star, I gladly would. Just tell me where to Go!!!!!!!!

[CaptAirProx]

I only pushed trollies up the thing for two years. It was the best aircraft I operated even if it was the oldest. For pax comfort it excelled over the 767/A300. These aren't true wide-body cabins. The L10 was a huge roomy and smooth flyer. Although not allowed now, the amount of crew you could get in that flight deck was amazing! The lower galley was just one big party! And the doors are the best in the business. I will miss her. She felt the safest of all the jets I have worked. Shame I never operated her as a flight crew. The only drag was the cabin angle at speed less than M0.80. That was hard work!

[simbad3000]

Gov: You said that the L10 is the way to go for operators without an ETOPS certificate. But as I understood it, the big deal with ETOPS is the tiny possibility that you could lose 2 (i.e. both) engines. Is the L10 any better off in this respect, i.e. if it lost 2 engines can it still fly on its remaining ONE? :confused:

Just a question about this ETOPS business from a non-technical person: don't apply instant flaming :).

[Willit Run]

L-1011's with one engine running(at least the 524's) will do ok, at about 2000 to 5000 feet and you better be looking for somewhere to land. With my past company, we had a few occasions where we were stuck on one engine. A couple of engine out ferries that went not exactly as planned, so the guys just went around the patch and landed and then had a beer or two or three or four!

[411A]

Peter is right, the L10 will fly on one engine at "reasonable" weights. In 20 years and more than 10,000 command hrs on the TriStar, have had NO engine failures, and one precautionary shutdown (high vibs)....a really FINE machine...but getting old so will be assigned to the "small" operators to make....a big profit (we hope)...hey, even a small profit would be welcome in today's market.

[fergineer]

All this talk about Tri-Stars is getting me all excited, could there be jobs coming my way again? Beats the hell out of sitting around doing nothing, me and lots of guys I should think. :D :D :D

[The Guvnor]

411A - try ANY profit! :D :D :D

These are great aircraft especially for niche operations and I'm sure that you'll do well with them. When's your first aircraft due out of AMM?

[Jetscream 32]

Just remember though that airlines are run by bean counters and shareholders, and when you can buy a Tricycle for $1 mill USD versus a 767 for $ 150,000 USD per month dry, irrespective of the operating costs, you start to understand the logic of people contemplating the idea but not necessarily opting for it.

Charter Airline = good idea :D

Scheduled Airline = not so good :confused:

Still! that's my opinion.

Tally Ho!! - Bags of Smoke - Over the top - Dagger - Dagger - Dagger?

:D :D :D :D

[411A]

Well Guv, the aeroplane in AMM is starting to have ah....problems. Several years of Kalitta/Kittyhawk have taken their toll, and then there is the problem of the rear spar...RJ will not sign off a heavy check without the mod done, and the spar cannot be done in AMM, so....well lets just say that there are Belgians involved...you get the picture i'm sure. The word stubborn comes to mind. :rolleyes:
Good thing we have a backup plan. ;)

[Roadtrip]

You mean 1 flyable Tristar and 9 cann birds. Glad it's not my money.

[redtail]

Got an ex-Kalitta bird? Hope the serial numbers match. Those hammer mechanics wouldn't know a 8130 if it was tacked to their foreheads. Emery had a better program.

[Willit Run]

411A, Which L-1011 from Kalitta is in AMM? I'm curious to know, since I used to fly them.
And all these cracks about the maint. If you didn't work there, you just don't know! Just like every other airline in the world, we had our good ones and bad ones. As for our reliability. I spent 4 years on the Tri-Star there,2400 hours; never had an engine failure, or any maint delay of any significance. :p

[tulips]

Hi Simbad, I see nobody has answered your question yet!

ETOPS actually caters for the very tiny possibility that ONE engine might fail. Thus requirements in terms of flyability, electrical requirements and maximum range from a suitable airport. The question of two engines failing is not part of the equation at all (given that it would put a twin in a rather unenviable position!) :eek:

[411A]

Well Peter Bach, the problem with the Kalitta/Kittyhawk L10's was not the airframe, it was the rather poor maintenance on the engines. RR engines require a fair degree of special attention, and if given same, will work good/last a long time. I asked the Kalitta DirMaintenance years ago when they received their first L10 if he was going to send anyone to RR school in Derby. His reply was something like..."if these boys can fix a DC-8, they can fix anything"...and it sadly showed, especially with the RB.211-524B4.
Redtail, you are quite correct about the 8130's, they must have used very dull tacks.

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]

[GotTheTshirt]

Simbad, tulips.

When Court line started operating Tristars (-1) Luton-Antigua (1972-3) the UK overwater rules related to 50% of the power plants inoperatives based on 4 engined aircraft.(Hence the twins only relate to single failure) This was the first time that 3 engined aircraft had been involved in this long range flying so the CAA stated that the performance was predicated on 2 engines inop. The Luton - Santa Maria leg was not a problem as at the overwater stage the aircraft was light enought to maintain on 1 engine. The Santa Maria-Antigua leg was more of a problem due to high weights for the southbound leg. With the aircraft at MTOW the CAA allowed that any point during the climb a double engine failure would allow the aircraft to descend on its climb path thereby allowing it to get back to Santa Maria. After TOC double engine failure would result in drift-down. After the failure(s) the aircraft starts going down hill at an fixed rate but as fuel is burnt off that rate decreases. The original Lockheed drift down figures recomputed the drift down rate every 2,000 feet and this did not allow the operation. Lockheed went back and re-computed the drift down at every 100 feet which then made it work !!
Court Line operated the route until its demise in 1974.

[The Guvnor]

411A - I warned you about those Belgians! :rolleyes: :D As you know the engines on the Kalitta birds are actually -524B02s not the -524B4s; if they had been the latter you'd have (probably) been in better shape. An ECM programme pays dividends, BIG time!!

[moggie]

I can see the logic in buying old aeroplanes - so long as they can be kept serviceable.

A new fuel efficient airliner will cost 30times what Gulf are paying for those TriMotors (at least 30 times!) - so that leaves a hell of a lot of cash available for fuel and maintenance.

In these current lean times an expensive expansion plan could be the undoing of your airline (Canada 3000 for example) but if Gulf subsequently find they do not have the trade for all 10 then they can canibalise a few. It is an aeroplane with an impressive safety record, is comfortable and still looks good in a fresh coat of paint.

It's the same logic that says new cars are a bad move - my old MGC never breaks down (it is well seviced) and although it uses more fuel than a BMW Z3 I can run it for 5 years on the depreciation that the Z3 suffers in 1 year. 5:1 - bl@@dy good return in my book.

[scanscanscan]

Did not Gulf Air sell its only Tristar simulator and cabin mock ups?
If so.. a good deal of long distance crew dead heading and hotel accommodation for all crew members would also be required if this new L1011 fleet is a reality.

[GF_001]

Guys, Thank you for showing interest in GF having TRI STARS ( L1011).But let me tell you that NO TRI STARS will join GULF AIR fleet,there is a lot of morden airplanes in the market, and very cheap to lease them, if we have to relpace our fleet,will be new airplanes from Airbus or BOEING... BUT NOT YET!! :eek:

[The Guvnor]

scanscanscan - yes, the sim went to Intercredit when they bought the last of the fleet and all the spares. There are, however, other L10 sims operational in BOH, MIA and ATL - plus the TWA one (not sure what happened with that).

As for cabin trainers - just use an airframe!

[GlueBall]

Gov:
The TWA (-22) Sim had made its way to MIA; at Pan Am Flt Academy, but in a separate building.

[GeofJ]

It is interesting to see all the loving comments by those who flew the Tristar however as a frequent flyer I can say from a pax point of view they are mostly decrepit, clapped out old birds. Give me a 777 anytime rather than a dogeared tired old L1011.

[411A]

Ah yes..."give me a 777 anytime......" with engines that go pfffsssst in the night resulting in an offroute landing (recent incidents with SIA come to mind)..Still, the 777 is new, bright and shiney, not "dogeared"...yet.

[The Guvnor]

BizSLF - if you knew what we know about the design and build quality of the B777 (and the A330/340) vs the L1011 you would never set foot in another one ... :D :D :D

[sirwa69]

From what I have been able to find out it seems that this whole topic was the result of a couple of GF pilots who were ex-Tristar engineers pontificating in a pub downroute.
GF have no plans to buy back Tristars, :( as GF-001 states, there are plenty of cheap modern a/c around at the moment.

Bloody good example of how a good rumour placed at the right time can take off though :D :D

[The Guvnor]

Sirwa69 - maybe GF isn't interested in resurrecting the L10s, but I do have to say that there has been a huge resurgence of interest in the type from around the world - especially developing nations.

The L10 provides them with ultra-cheap lift and aircraft that are much less 'high tech' (and therefore more likely to be maintainable by locals); are extremely rugged; and most importantly of all are not affected by ETOPS.

Offhand, I can think of more than 50 aircraft that could be made operational again.

[PowerRanger]

Guv'nor you're talking complete bollox. If there has been the alledged 'huge surge in interest' how come nobody has bought one of the 50 bargain and easily reactivated L1011s you have being bulls......g about?

Truth is they are all beyong the grave now. Uneconomic to fly. Uneconomic to return to service.

Values were in the toilet pre September 11. Now they have sunk to scrap only. If you are being offered a L1011 for one million dollars I have to assume that the airline concerned has rather big windows in their office building.

Because they can sure see you coming! :D

I know where you can buy several tristars with engines and spare parts for less than half that figure.

And still no one is interested.

Quit trying to make the market Guv'nor and get a life.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[The Guvnor]

OK, Power Ranger, i'll bite - email me the details of these great bargains. My addy is in my profile! :D :D

[Willit Run]

For those of us that have spent time on the Tri-Star, this has been a fun thread, and I for one never thought that Gulf Air would bring them back, but folks, all this childish banter makes reading this forum no fun at all. Bite your tongues, ignore the BS, and show some restraint, PLEASE!

[BahrainLad]

From what I've heard....and I'm not trying to start a 'war' is that the 777 is indeed built a bit shoddily. Something to do with Industrial relations at the big B.

Rumours are that the birds coming out of Tolouse/Hamburg these days are much better - if they are taken care of! I was on A40-KB about a year ago (a 24 month old 332 of GF) and in the biz cabin there was tech lights, seats and wall fittings!

However, the build quality of the L10 is nothing compared to the DC-10 - an aircraft you could patch up to no end.

[411A]

The Delta birds are now WAY down in price from August....you would be surprised at the interest..

[The Guvnor]

Peter Bach - with the exception of our former Sabena friend on the first page, this thread is a remarkably well behaved one!

BahrainLad - you're not joking. I was at Gamco earlier this year when one of the ex Delta L15s was undergoing a predelivery C check to Portuguese charter operator Yestours. It was in such great shape mechanically - despite having been stored for over a year - that Yes were able to save nearly US$500,000 on their budget. No corrosion anywhere; no technical snags; the only problems were three slat delaminations (two out of limits, one in limits).

Next to this aircraft was a brand new A330 in one of the special GF schemes. Already two weeks late out of C check, there were still pages of snags outstanding - and they had found a couple of areas of serious corrosion and nearly sixty(!) cracks.

The problem, as it was explained to me, is simple. The L1011 (and the DC10, and early 747s) were designed by hand with sliderules - and therefore everyone built in significant margins of error. Lockheed, for example, recalculated their original design specifications and came up with a revised airframe life of 125,000 hours! On the other hand, modern aircraft are built with CADCAM using the latest supercomputers, and designed to micrometer tolerances. You know that when you have a design life of 20,000 cycles on an A340, on 20,001 the wings will fall off.

In order to save weight, the skins are a fraction of the thickness of those on older generation aircraft. Check it out next time you board an aircraft. Thicker skins = more weight = more fuel to fly around the place = lower payloads and/or range.

Of course, thinner skins = more susceptible to damage/more cracks/more corrosion = higher maintenance costs; but hey, you can't have it all!

411A - the biggest problem with the Delta birds is that they are fully, and I mean fully run out. Airframe. Gear. APU. Engines. Interiors. Add to that the fact that DL don't know what they have in the way of spares, tooling etc and you'll see why I'm still waiting until DDM offers me money to take them away! :D :D

[PowerRanger]

411A wise up guy. If the price is low enough of course there will be interest.

Gees, if you pitch them low enough the plane-spotters will buy one but it hardly marks the threshold of a new golden era of L1011 equipped airlines! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Are you a friend of the Guvnor's? :D

[GlueBall]

At least on the older birds there's no worry about the newfangled composites to come unglued, eh? :D

[The Guvnor]

PowerRanger - for a consultant you don't seem to be thinking this through!

If the price is low enough, people will buy them. Why? Well, not to part out - L10 spares are already sold by the pound rather than the part number.

They will be sold because it will be worth peoples' while to return them to service.

The return to service of a significant number of L1011s, in my book, does indeed represent a significant improvement on the aircraft's fortunes where until recently the only people actively looking at getting L1011s in the air were 411A and myself.

So yes, I'd be inclined to say - cautiously - that it does indeed appear that the comeback of these magnificent aircraft could well be on the cards.

The coming weeks and months will show whether this is indeed the case!

[GeofJ]

OK I humbly repent for professing a liking for new shiny planes instead of old ugly ducklings - what do I know I am just pax! There may be some validity to the theory that old designs were overbuilt - similar to building construction in most of the modern world today - old buildings were overdesigned because engineers wanted some margin of error and their calculations and modelling were primitive so assumptions were always weighted towards more not less. Current state of the art in building construction is to engineer them to the very edge to save money with more possibility of failure. That being said I have flown on Delta's Tristars before they parked them and they were TIRED and that was some time ago.

[MasterGreen]

You have to understand the concept of the era here. The L1011 was overbuilt - for all the reasons above, and as such she does not perform so well (in fuel / range terms) as the modern metal. However the Tristar is beautifully built. The Lockheed stable that designed her was at the time working on the Space Shuttle and that research comes through loud and clear in the aerodynamics and structure.

She is rather heavy on "old world" technology and can be a sod to maintain if you don't know the systems. But after all the initial problems with the RB211's things settled down to a very solid airliner. Indeed it may well be, when all the bets are in, that the L1011 will prove to be the safest of all the types so far (at time of writing).

That many are shabby now is a function of TLC - not the design or the airframe. Properly cared for and restored (if you will) she could serve for many many more years yet. The 3 engine concept is a perfect compromise. Remember they only put 8 engines on when 6 wouldn''t produce the urge.

Putting a third motor in the tail is the only logical solution (for 3) and only Lockheed got it correct with the "S" duct. The DC10 was an abomination. However there are structural penalties and she pays them. But at current purchase prices there is a lot of slack for a refit and lots of TLC that would make a wonderful mid range airliner.

It will take courage and foresight to put these babies back into mainstream service. But with oil at $15 a barrel and holding and giveaway prices - it would not be a real gamble. Certainly I would rather take a ride on a Tristar than a A330/340. And when the going gets rough - I would not be clutching the seat arms worrying about the fin - I would be shouting - "Go baby - Go !"

But then I am biased. I have 3000+ hours in those wide seats at the front with the big windows and never had more than a minor heartburn from her. Faster than a 744, stronger than a C130, prettier than a dolphin - what more could you ask?

[PowerRanger]

Guvnor, sorry old chum but you are living in a dreamworld.

How many L1011 operators are out there? Exclude the -500 operators for a while and you are basically left with;

1. Air Transat
2. TradeWinds
3. ATA
4. Air Atlanta
5. That clown in Thailand
6. Er...
7. ...that's it!

Of those Transat are grounding their entire fleet of non-500 L1011s post Sep 11. TradeWinds are contemplating their navel, Altlanta are grounding and the clown is being grounded.

Question - if the L1011 is on the dawn of a second coming as you suggest how come all the operators in the world can be counted on one hand? How come these operators are reducing? How come the existing operators are not rushing to acquire these bargains you wax lyrical about? How come the cash-strapped airlines in the smellier parts of the world aren't rushing to buy them either?

Multiple choice time.

Could it be that either

A. The aircraft are cheap to reactivate and operate; or

B. You're talking out of the back of your head?

Answers on a post card please! :D :D :D

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[FE Hoppy]

Just thought I would throw this into the mix. What with the Hadjj fast aproaching and not so many aircraft available to troop the pilgrims, might it not be a good time for say Saudia to put a few back in the air.


"grins knowingly to himself and stands back"

[411A]

Even SV does not have enough cash to reactivate their TriStars', when they were parked, many had multiple deferred items and are ALL in need of a 'D' check. There were/are only about six that are economical to repair and fly again...and even then those six are not able to use oceanic airspace without a major avionics upgrade....OK for Africa or South America tho... even the USA.

[Not Invented Here]

If any has a need for a Inboard Wing Rear Spar Kit for one of these soon to be resurrected examples of Engineering Excellence, I know a man who can !

[The Guvnor]

Actually, one of the SV -200s went through a heavy check - including being repainted in the new Saudi Arabian colours - and was promptly parked!

[411A]

Level 1 or better--

Lockheed has told everyone concerned that they will NOT support any L10 that is fitted with an inboard (or outboard) rear spar kit that was previously sold to an operator and not used....as in the two kits that were recently sold at the Kittyhawk auction. Of course, if LM support is not ah...desired, then well, rather out on a limb.

[GlueBall]

Looks like two more -200Fs are semi derelict, ex Arrow and ex Fine Air, with engines missing at MIA. :(

[The Guvnor]

411A - what happens then in a situation where one buys an ex KHI aircraft and an ex KHI spar kit? Would that conform - or not - with LMSC's rather interesting requirement?

Not quite sure how they could justify this, unless each kit is tailor made for the client and will only fit a specific aircraft. There should only be two variants as I understand it - one for the longbodies and one for the -500s.

But then I have to admit that the concept of 'customer service' appears to be lacking from the many manuals at Greenville!

[Not Invented Here]

411A
Just how did Lockheed promulgate this to "everyone concerned"? maybe via the Skunk Works!
Sounds like a way to corner the limited market for their spares pile in Greenville

[Flame Out]

Uh, PowerRanger, us clowns in Thailand are known as...uh...what the hell... Never mind. :D

[411A]

Ugh, well there flame out, its called HAVING YOUR THAI CERTIFICATE CANCELLED (as in Kaput, goodby)....anything else you would like to know?
And for those who would like to know about Lockheed, why not call them directly for the information. I have the number handy...for those that are really interested.

[411A]

Gov, Lockheed is concerned that the kits have been tampered with, and all of their parts are not there (fasteners are critical). If I were Lockheed, I would be concerned too....for quality control purposes...and the FAA agrees, strangely enough.

[Not Invented Here]

411A
- and there has never been an incorrectly supplied part from Lockheed !!
It would depend on where and how the kit has been stored; if there is any record of parts taken from the kit and to which revision of the SB the kit was supplied to.
This could apply to any SB kit supplied by any manufacturer.
Just how would the FAA enforce this ?

[411A]

Level 1 or better---
I'ts all called liability, and that is what Lockheed is worried about. Of course, if an operator does not need or want Lockheed support, then they can purchase and install the kit, no problem. For the FAA concerns, contact the ATL ACO.

[flightops]

Hello Guvnor and 411A!

Have a question for you - Guvnor mentioned that you both would be interested to see a new L1011 Operator or at least some back in the air!

We are currently working on a project to preserve one. Any intrest there or ideas for support?

Drop me a line if interested!

[Flame Out]

Gee, 411A, you're so predictable. Didn't we go through this a couple of months ago? Dude, get a life! What do you have against that outfit anyway? They didn't give you a job or what? I know there's really not a lot to do out in Arizona but c'mon. At least The Guvnor doesn't try to bag everybody at every corner. But you...

You sound like the kind of guy who sits in the bar with a really big watch. :D

[raitfaiter]

Now this really IS a proper rumour thread. One completely unsubstantiated rumour about Gulf air and some beaten up old dogs of aircraft that nobody in his right mind would ever fly again without unrestricted access to the maintenance data, and all the cockroaches come creeping out of the cracks...The Guvnor, Fergineer, 411a.....plus all the RAF civvy wannabees desperate to see the last of Ascension and Port Stanley....bravo that man! :D :p :D

[Denzil]

Are GF going to operates the old Cally TriStars as I believe they have been looked over recently :cool:

How long have they been parked up now, must be a few years?

[fergineer]

Denzil the last one flew out of LGW just over 2 years ago, all of them within a week of each other. :D

Stop Start, I do not like being called a cockroach and resent the remark. What have you done to try and help your mates to get a job, probably nothing I have, I have put a lot of work in my own time to try and get employment for my mates and anyone else for that matter, all done in my own time and with no pay and I will continue to do so.
I am currently out of work again as well but once again I share any snippets with my mates, so you see I feel that your comment is somewhat uncalled for. Remember one day you will need mates to help you to get a job, hope you treat them better than this.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[raitfaiter]

Sorry fergie, but for some reason your name and the guvnors just seem to stick together..... :p

[A767]

You chaps are probably dreaming of GF. They will never fly L1011 again...and why ,when every year they are getting 2-3 brand new A330? It's funny when somebody who has no idea is bull****ting... ;)

[fergineer]

Sorry fergie, but for some reason your name and the guvnors just seem to stick together.....
And because someones names just stick together you feel you can call them names and insult them, well I for one do not think that is very gentlemanly or should I say coming from one of your standing. If you are going to insult someone do it to their face, you know I live just down the road. :mad: :mad:

[Danish Pilot]

flightops:

Please email me at [email protected]

I need your email adress.

Brgds, DP

[raitfaiter]

Fergineer, as I have no idea who you are, I certainly don't know where you live.... on reflection I do feel that tarring you with the same brush as the guvnor and 411a was out of order. Please accept my apology.

[fergineer]

Accepted, now that didnt take much did it, however do you really need to insult the others as well, have you met them do you know what they are up to, as far as I know they are both trying to get people jobs out there, tthey both have their views and are entitled to them, chill out on the insults, you have many good points to put, put them and less of the insults. Go straight across the Prince of Wales roundabout a Wooty B, there you will find me. :D :D :D

[Whiskery]

Power Ranger - enlighten us all with your infinite knowledge of L1011 operators and tell me how many Tristars Air Atlanta have at present. You DID mention us in your list!

[Dick Deadeye]

Shouldn´t give out too many details about your address Fergineer. :D

My mate Nigel tells me that there are one or two real engineers around who are keen to, er, discuss a recent dumb posting of yours about Concorde!

[fergineer]

Tell your mates they are more than free to email me, and what do you infer about them being real engineers, I have mates who are FE's on conc and they have not approached me . Put up or shut up. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[sirwa69]

So! has anyone got any more information on whether or not Gulf Air are going to purchase Tristars? :p :p

[yasserfat]

Who really cares about Gulf Air anyway? 2nd. rate airline...seen better days, etc. etc.

[sirwa69]

yasserfat

There are quite a lot of Pprunners who care for Gulf Air. Either we work for it or we are connected in other ways. For sure if Gulf Air went down it would cause lots of problems for us.
If you, on the other hand, do not have any interest in Gulf Air then please do not waste your valuable time on any Gulf Air forums. I am sure a man of your considerable intellect can see the wisdom of this. :p :p :p

[Anti Skid On]

Man, this is the insult-a-thon of the year. The 5H1T is flying everywhere.

Heard an L10 was being made into a diner in the West Midlands - perhaps Gulf Air are venturing into fast food! :D

[The Guvnor]

Ha!!! Your cover is blown, Sirwa69! I see you're going ahead with the fast food franchise I suggested - so this will be known as the El Ten HaggisonaStick, then? :D :D :D

With the end of Ramadan nigh - it's gotta be a winner!

[Denzil]

Hey Guv is it you buying the ex Cally -1's then? I thought they wanted too much for them, although two years in storage must have dropped the price ;)

[StopStart]

Stop Start
Like the username.
Ferg, you have mail.

[sirwa69]

Tri our Star HaggissonaStick

Suck it and see

:D :D :D

[sirwa69]

Thought I'd just do the 100 ;)

[PowerRanger]

Whiskeryyou want ME to enlighten YOU and you work for Air Atlanta??

How worrying.

Well, I don't know how many you have exactly but I know it is reducing.

Or perhaps your posting is an attempt to be amusing because you operate none at all!!

How funny.

While laughing perhaps check out your own website and then comeback here and tell everyone what it says YOUR fleet consists of...