no jump seat rides???

[descent rate]

I work at BRS and was lucky enough to get one of the last jump seat rides before they were stopped. I say stopped but it appears that the rules dont apply to KLM flights. Yesterday (Fri 7th nov 07) two bags were bumped from one of their flights to AMS. Whilst being returned landside a further instruction was given to return the bags to the aircraft as the passenger was now flying. On further investigation it was found that the captain was allowing the passenger to use the jump seat. Are we the only country that follows rulles to the letter?

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Who used the Jump seat?
The jump seat can be used by a cabin crew member and their seat used by the pax.
Do you know for sure that the pax used the jump seat in the flight deck?

[descent rate]

Not for sure, as I didn't access the a/c. I'm afraid it was all word of mouth. I know all about chinese whispers and all that stuff but in the several years I have worked at BRS KLM have been mentioned al least 3 times to my knowledge with regard to this sort of "incident"

[wiggy]

Even in the UK there are certain categories of passengers who can quite legally be carried on the Flight Deck, e.g. Company employees with suitable documentation. Maybe KLM has similar rules and the Captain was trying to squeeze a staff passenger on?

[niknak]

KLM and a few other airlines used to be very good in this respect - accomodating passengers on the jump seat at the Captains discretion if the cabin was full and the flight overbooked, if nothing else it was excellent PR .

I find it hard to believe they'd still do it as although they're not a UK based airline they have a big market share at regional UK airports in terms of interlining and if they did have this policy when no one else did it would harm their image as a security concious company.

Even as an ATCO it's next to impossible to get a jump seat ride for the purposes of TRUCE and never as a passenger.

As you say, Chinese whispers etc.

[descent rate]

NO!. The bags were ordinary Pax bags with an onward connection, I can't remember where to.

[wiggy]

OK. There's still the possibility (already mentioned) of the passenger using one of the Cabin Crew jumpseats whilst the displaced Cabin Crew member sits on the Flight Deck jumpseat for take-off and landing.

[BarTT]

Impossible to get Jump seat Rides for TRUCE? We have no problem sorting them at Liverpool. The Airlines are very happy to have us as long as we give them some notice! Got 5 next week. :)

[Stop Stop Stop]

In KLM it IS allowed to place passengers on one of the spare cabin crew jumpseats subject to certain requirements and the approval of the cabin crew. It is not allowed to carry anyone else on the cockpit jumpseat unless they are staff members.

It is quite possible that if the cockpit jumpseat was used then it could have been a KLM crewmember even if they were not in uniform. There are several pilots based at BRS and some deadhead or XCM to AMS (a sort of write your own ticket system of travel- although they have to be in uniform to qualify).

Hope this helps but it definitely would not have been a 'civvie' on the cockpit seat unless they were known. Sadly those happy days ended in 2001 and we all know why.

Wiggy, the only cabin crew who can be displaced in the manner you suggest is either a trainee who is surplus to crew requirements or a cabin crew member deadheading as a passenger. It is not allowed to displace an operating crewmember for any reason. They must be at their correct stations.

[ChicoChico]

We can't even carry one of own pilots in our own jumpseat through UK airspace (let alone land at LHR) unless he is an authorized member of the crew, in other words not travelling on a pass for holiday type of thing!
signed,
...a pilot for an Airline in Canada

[Del Prado]

I'm an ATCO and I've had a jump seat flight since 2001 into the UK from europe. ID90 ticket, flight was full.

The airline? Don't want to say but they don't hold for long when I'm working.;)

[cortilla]

there could have been a crew member who was on an xcm ticket seated in the cabin but then asked to move to the fd jumpseat when someone realised flight was still overbooked when c/in closed. Was it a F70 or a 73? Positioning crew do not appear in codeco so crew member could have appeared before checkin was closed. many possibilities.

[wiggy]

Stop stop stop
Thanks for the clarification regarding KLM- In "our" lot ( UK major) we can displace a working Cabin Crew member to the flight deck but with the obvious caveat that all the doors are covered.

[Yellow Snow]

Jumpseats aren't stopped!

ATCOs are allowed on the flightdeck of UK registered carriers providing Captain has authority in advance from airline ops.

At Heathrow we have access to BMI, BA, Lingus and Virgin.

With regards to non UK operators, I know from first and second hand that ATCOs can get flight deck access ad hoc if a passenger on a flight, Lufty, Air France and Ali are all very flexible with regard to this.

[Alberts Growbag]

Put simply, the UK is the only country still restricting the flight deck jump seat to employee's of the company or 'approved' personnel. (CAA permission required)

The rest of Europe have since 2001 stuck a finger up at the USA and allowed passengers on the flight deck. In fact even the US now has slacker procedures compared to the UK, we are their Turkeys after all.

If the press want to do something useful for a change they could do an investigation into why the UK are so up the Americans posterior on security when even the yanks are relaxing....or is it because we have more potential terrorists living in our communities than they do..

What do you think.....:D

[A4]

A Cabin Crew member should never give up their seat for a pax and ride jump seat! Cabin crew are required to be at their "station" for take-off and landing in case it all goes horribly wrong.

There are always rumours regarding jump seats and non-locked doors by some countries. But flying into UK airspace it's a requirement...... and I'm fully satisfied that it is complied with by ALL carriers........ :hmm:

I can't even take my Dad on a jolly anymore.....:rolleyes::ugh::mad::yuk::*:(

A4

[Avman]

ATCOs are allowed on the flightdeck of UK registered carriers providing Captain has authority in advance from airline ops.


That's just the problem, too rigid a procedure. Fortunately a fair number of non UK / non US carriers continue to use common sense as far as this is concerned. I don't blame UK / US crews, they have to comply with company rules.

[Leezyjet]

Plenty of airlines are still allowing people to ride on the f/deck j/seat, on some you don't even need to be airline staff either !!. Plenty of pics online clearly showing this. Some of them are also European Airlines !!.

:\

[xxgunnerxx]

Well I tried to get a jump seat from ams-ala and back, by asking, "is it possible for me to sit in the flight deck" during boarding and both times the flight attendants had confusion written on their faces but then they smile and say no sorry. I also tried to get a jump seat from yyz-ams and back (it was a 744) but for some reason there were 4 pilots in the cabin both legs so I didn't bother. Any one know why KLM had 4 pilots on flight deck? Maybe they were SFO? I doubt that they were spare crews since the flight was only 7 hours.

[Farrell]

There are countless numbers of airlines who allow passengers on the flightdeck using a jumpseat.

Happens all the time over here on overbooked flights. They will usually give preference to airside pass holders and swap them with pax. But I have seen many a passenger ride up front.

On many occasions, I have selflessly offered up my seat in economy in order to save a fellow traveller the discomfort for a jumpseat ride :E

[main_dog]

The airline? Don't want to say but they don't hold for long when I'm working.

With regards to non UK operators, I know from first and second hand that ATCOs can get flight deck access ad hoc if a passenger on a flight, Lufty, Air France and Ali are all very flexible with regard to this.

As an ex-FO for one of these three airlines, and as a commuter now travelling extensively on another, I can confirm this common-sense approach prevails at LH, AF and AZ...

As long as the person is demonstrably flight crew or cabin crew or ATCO (or crew's family/close friends), as far as I'm concerned they're no threat to safety, quite the opposite (once briefed as to what phases of the flight to be quiet and let the pilots concentrate! :ok:). Carrying ATCO even produces benefits in terms of a greater understanding of each other's work environment (and perhaps the odd "discount" over Biggin Hill! ;))

I feel some countries/airlines have gotten a little paranoid; I mean, what threat can the captain's mother possibly pose? Or a pilot for the same airline riding the jumpseat with a ID90 ticket? Just my fabled two eurocents, but I think it should be at the Captain's discretion (as it is on the three formerly mentioned airlines).

Let's not get carried away with security concerns and maintain a realistic approach, otherwise it will all become as ridiculous as trying to get through UK security... and the captain having his tweezers confiscated...

MD

[M.Mouse]

A Cabin Crew member should never give up their seat for a pax and ride jump seat! Cabin crew are required to be at their "station" for take-off and landing in case it all goes horribly wrong.

Providing the legal minimum number of cabin crew are seated in the correct positions then it is possible to have a cabin crew member sit on the FD and a passenger to occupy the then released jump seat in the cabin

[Capt Fathom]

As long as the person is demonstrably flight crew or cabin crew or ATCO (or crew's family/close friends), as far as I'm concerned they're no threat to safety, quite the opposite

Yeah, Right!

Tell that to the Fedex crew that got hammered, literally, by the jumpseater, who was also a fellow pilot and company employee. They survived, but if my memory is correct, none of that 3 man crew regained their medicals due to the injuries they received!

[lowbypass]

"Plenty of airlines are still allowing people to ride on the f/deck j/seat, on some you don't even need to be airline staff either !!. Plenty of pics online clearly showing this. Some of them are also European Airlines !.."

"I feel some countries/airlines have gotten a little paranoid; I mean, what threat can the captain's mother possibly pose? Or a pilot of the same airline riding the jumpseat with a ID90 ticket? Just my fabled two eurocents, but I think it should be at the Captain's discretion (as it is on the three formerly mentioned airlines).

Let's not get carried away with security concerns and maintain a realistic approach, otherwise it will all become as ridiculous as trying to get through UK security... and the captain having his tweezers confiscated..." :)

MD




Absolutely true,...this regulation is too rigid...does not hold water, we are being forced to dance the masters tune, stooges...

Tweezers confiscated??...one might argue that new tweezers can easily be purchased, the point is NOT getting new tweezers, the point is WHATS ALL THIS FUSS?!

[ray cosmic]

Yeah, Right!

Tell that to the Fedex crew that got hammered, literally, by the jumpseater, who was also a fellow pilot and company employee. They survived, but if my memory is correct, none of that 3 man crew regained their medicals due to the injuries they received!Oh, so because that happened once it shall happen again?
Now that is paranoid.

[main_dog]

Tell that to the Fedex crew that got hammered, literally, by the jumpseater, who was also a fellow pilot and company employee.

Well, you have a point; but in actual fact if you think of it that could have happened with the guy on flying duty as well, sitting on the right or on the left, and then it would have been one against one instead of one against two. There's not much you can do to protect against the odd crazy or grudge-bearer who has made it through all our selection processes and screens.

This type of thing does happen although it is a fairly rare occurrence, for example the Egypt Air guy who decided to commit suicide with the entire airplane; but if you think about it, a case could be made that the more people there are on the flight deck the higher the chance of an unbalanced person being stopped by everyone else before they do too much damage...

Just my opinion! :ok:

MD

[deplanedeplane]

Yeah, Right!

Tell that to the Fedex crew that got hammered, literally, by the jumpseater, who was also a fellow pilot and company employee. They survived, but if my memory is correct, none of that 3 man crew regained their medicals due to the injuries they received!


That is a good point there. But does it need to be the fellow pilot & company employee that does the hammering????? How about any one of the operating crew in flight that do have access to the flightdeck at anytime throughout the entire flight.

To Quote Main_Dog
There's not much you can do to protect against the odd crazy or grudge-bearer who has made it through all our selection processes and screens.
Now before you all start bashing me with angry replies, I feel my comments here are warrented. If you want the boys and I should include girls these days up front to be safe. How about locking them in just before the last door to the a/c closes and it remains closed/locked until security at the other end enters the code and lets them out.
I am sure the flight deck can be extended back a little bit to include a bathroom and contain a small chiller that has drinks and food.

You can not get more secure than that. Until that happens all the rules about jump seats and the flight deck are all just BULLSH#T.

My two cents (worth less than crap now because of the falling USD)

DeplaneDeplane.

[Capt Fathom]

OK. Maybe not a good example.

But my point is this. How willing are you to have someone sitting behind you, in a position where you cannot monitor them, and that person is someone you have never met and know nothing about. This person will be locked in the flightdeck with you.

99.9% of them will be genuinely good people, thankful for the opportunity (Law permitting).

It's the other 0.1% you have to worry about. And you won't have time to find out until it becomes a problem.

[ray cosmic]

Fathom, you mean like rapists on the street, child abusers around schools, bankrobbers, carjackers etc?
The only solution is to lock yourself away forever on the toilet and hope it doesn't clog.
Nothing in life is certain, and this would qualify as acceptable risk.
Can you imagine: the one time you do not have a jumpseater a fuelpump shorts and you explode mid-air. There you are in your sterile environment..

[A4]

Providing the legal minimum number of cabin crew are seated in the correct positions then it is possible to have a cabin crew member sit on the FD and a passenger to occupy the then released jump seat in the cabin

Yes, thanks for that Mouse...... coming from the LoCo world we don't fly around with "spare" CC on board so it's not an option in my world.

Have to agree that I wouldn't be comfortable now having a stranger on the jumpseat for T/O and Ldg. However, being able to give friends and family the experience is something I miss. However, I fear that it will never be possible again due to the desk drivers who patently do not live in the real world any longer. Like everything else in Great:hmm: Britain, legislation is now dumbed down to the lowest "catch-all" denominator at the expense of all "normal" folk. PC paranoia, H&SE droids and cowering so we don't "offend" anyone is ruining this country - if I could, I'd be out of here ASAP.

A4 :(

[vmo]

Maybe there was an employee travelling full fare, which they took on the jumpseat to allow a pap to take the vacant seat....
Etc. etc.
"Loads" (pardon the pun) of other possibilities.
We don't take paying pax on the flt deck.
The rest is scd. That means if I say so, you go.
Go b*tch about your cereal and kick somebody else.

[GeeJay]

I never take a paying pax on a Jump Seat even if the commercial dep. asks me.
But airlines employees, ATCO and their close relatives, YES.
Naturally some priorities applies and I have the final decision. I want to keep it that way as long as I can.
Security, yes!!! Sure!!! but a bit of common sense too.

Happy landings

GJ

[blimey]

One of UK Transec's arguements is that a jumpseater means that the door will be opened more often and so the flightdeck will be more vulnerable to incursion. If that is so, why aren't they insisting on on a second door/barrier to the flight deck as a mod to existing a/c and as standard to all newbuilds?

KLM will allow access to those known to the flight crew - thank goodness for a bit of common sense.

bm

[Yellow Snow]

Ah but commen sense seldom applies to UK government departments. Especially where aviation is concerned:ugh:

The Heathrow fam flight schemes are great but as someone pointed out very inflexible:-
BA and Virgin up to 4 weeks notice.
BMI can sort us one out in a couple of days.

[Dave Gittins]

So as I am flying LHR to ORD on an AA 777 on Saturday and have no direct employment connection with the Aviation industry (apart from working for one of the biggest worldwide airport constructors) and with a JAA PPL and FAA PPL what are my chances of poling up and getting anywhere near the jump seat ?

Presumeably zero or slightly less.

Oh for the old days.

[Bushfiva]

As SLF, I fly with the blind up, blanket over my head, staring at the world as it rolls by. It's an astonishing opportunity to see the planet from a wonderful vantage point. I've done this for decades. I used to get the occasional jumpseat, and I was never too comfortable with it since I knew the crew didn't really want me there, but the optically better glass was just too good a chance to miss. I bet if someone had a forward-facing private cabin with optically-good glass in the nose of a 747 or 380, those seats would sell out months in advance. I'd pay anything for another jumpseat between Asia and Europe, absolutely anything. On 747's I always pick 1A or 1J if I can, simply to get that slightly forward-looking view. Flying's wonderful, if done right.

[gunit]

Like Jeremy said, in the rest of the free world you can sit up front!

[Stop Stop Stop]

Sadly Dave Gittins, probably less chance than zero. Like when hell freezes over!

American Airlines have never allowed jumpseaters other than industry guys and gals- the door was always locked.

In the old days in the world of European aviation, it would have been a pleasure to give you the jumpseat if the weather wasn't too crappy but thank the 9/11 crowd for that one. I wish it were different. The world is going mad.

[Dave Gittins]

Ah well , I've got a nice C172 to play with when I get to Colorado Springs ... the views are pretty good there around Pikes Peak.

:ok:

[Halfwayback]

Providing the legal minimum number of cabin crew are seated in the correct positions then it is possible to have a cabin crew member sit on the FD and a passenger to occupy the then released jump seat in the cabin

Following an accident (Heaven forbid), I think you would find it very difficult to defend in court having a active member of crew, who is provided specifically for the safety of passengers, sitting in the flight deck to allow a passenger to use a crew seat in the cabin. It would make a QC's day!

Remember it is the legal minimum that is legislated for. Extra crew just enhance that safety - particularly if one is injured.

There is still the other thread doing the rounds of a Captain who decided to 'use his own judgement' about flight deck occupancy. Most UK carriers have a common policy that has been enforced by an over-zealous Government department.

HWB

[INNflight]

Sadly those happy days ended in 2001 and we all know why.

So far had 13 (!) jumpseat flights as a pax after 2003, two of these into the UK and one outbound. Granted, the crew members knew me on all three of these, but on several others I was just SLF.

[Gonna]

Just to be clear on the KLM policy: no passengers allowed on jumpseats (incl. cabin), because they pay too much to be on a jumpseat (so they stay behind, that will make 'm happy...). So what happened here then? Let me guess, either of next three:

1. A DHC, other kind of KLM employee or a passenger related to the crew volunteered to be on a jump seat (allowed in both cabin and cockpit, SCD), and the passenger got a normal seat.
2. Someone else was kicked of the aircraft for some reason or other.
3. Captain didn't follow protocol. Does happen, but if someone files a report about it, he will be invited for a chat at the office.

[JustaFew]

Had a TRUCE ride to Seville and back today, one of those flights which is claimed to be next to impossible to obtain!
Many thanks to Nickolai and David, a great day!:ok:
(And thank you Marc for organising it)

[BarTT]

No worries Just a few!

[Capt Fathom]

There are pilots out there with common sense.

Unfortunately, commonsense is over-ridden by the law in most countries. :(

[4eyed spotter]

During a flight from EXT to PMI 2 years ago the captain allowed my and one other small child into the cockpit over Andorra. Very decent of him i think. common sense must prevail!:ok:

[grundyhead]

Maybe Robbie Savage could ask to be a jump seat passenger next time :)

[Airbubba]

No word of a lie, my father was allowed a ride on the jumpseat of an AA 767 roughly 3/4 weeks after September 11th 2001.

Somehow, I'm a little skeptical unless your father is a pilot with a U.S. airline (or his name is Frank Abagnale). Not that many years ago AA didn't allow offline pilots to ride in the cockpit at all. And Delta didn't allow even it's own pilots to ride. I gave a Deltoid a jumpseat ride and he told me they didn't offer it in return because they considered it 'unprofessional'.

I remember riding a Lufthansa jumpseat years ago but I had to buy a ticket. In the States jumpseats are by tradition and regulation free although you do encounter some customs and security fees when you go international on a U.S. carrier.

[Airbubba]

Absolutely true. My father is an ATCO.

I guess that would make him an "industry" person right? OK, I'll buy that.:)

Dispatchers, horse grooms and Secret Service agents are also mentioned in the regs as potential jumpseat riders under some conditions.

[Captain Planet]

While it may not be company policy.At the end of the day, It's the captain's decision whether or not they will take pax in the jump seat,end of story.
It may be "strictly forbidden" by certain airlines but it still happens on a day to day basis.

[Shanwick Shanwick]

I sat on an Air France jump seat a couple of months ago MAN - CDG whilst traveling on an ID90 ticket. Very grateful to get home after a long sector across the pond.

[undersiege]

I do agree that is the Captains choice a the end of the day, but these days you can't be to careful. Do we want anothe 9/11, NO.

I don't know the rules about cockpit entry on other airlines apart from my own, but believe only certain crew members should be allowed access to the flight deck under normal conditions.

Yes, I understand the CRM & SEP issues here. But unless it is a emergency, only the Cabin Service Manager(CSM) and the crew operating in the cabin directly outside the flight deck should have access. By all means if a crew member see's something or just feels that something is wrong, CALL THE FLIGHT DECK. Unless during the sterile cockpit period, then just inform the CSM.

The point I am trying to make is , limit the access to the flight deck and minimise the risk of something happening.

If a person needs a jumpseat that bad, give them a jumpseat in the cabin thats not a door jumpseat. there is always one or two of those extra on the larger aircraft.

The days of doing favors is over unfortunately. We can no longer think "What are the chance's of that happening" This is the age of FLY SAFE, FLY SMART & DON'T TAKE ANY RISKS.

[blimey]

undersiege

So you don't think my 6 foot, black belt karate, student son would be a useful addition inside the cockpit? Common sense - leave the decision who sits on the jumpseat to the flight crew! As for just certain cabin crew having access, their security clearance might well be worthless.

[undersiege]

So you don't think my 6 foot, black belt karate, student son would be a useful addition inside the cockpit?

WHAT!!!!!!:ugh::ugh:. Only if you son is a air marshall and works for your airline, then yes he would be useful.

Common sense - leave the decision who sits on the jumpseat to the flight crew!

There are laws in most countries that state no jumpseats in the flight deck. They are put in place for a reason. If you want to break these laws:= and risk for job or your rank then go for it:sad:. I hope you don't break the law as the industry is short of good pilots as it is.


As for just certain cabin crew having access, their security clearance might well be worthless.

Crew are your last line of defense between the cabin and the flight deck.
Normally the cabin directly outside the flight deck is either F/C or J/C and they usually have senior crew in them, not the new and junior ones. Yes, all cabin crew are trained that same and they have all attended CRM. But the way I see it Flight Deck or Cabin Crew, experience COUNTS.
I did state in the event of a emergency they can enter the flight deck.

Safety First. Unless that person is operating crew who is not manning a door and wants to sit in the Flight Deck for a take off and or landing. Then how can anyone feel safe with a stranger in the Flight Deck.

As always FLY SAFE, FLY SMART, BE ALERT.

[oldpax]

I was under the impression the flight deck was for the people who fly the airoplane and not his old school chums or whatever.Plenty of museums where armchair pilots can play with all the knobs levers and stuff!Security is paramount these days!

[Wedge]

Bollox.

The locked flight deck door policy is a sham, a worthless measure designed to make people 'feel' more secure.

Just like the idiotic security measures introduced last year.
Remember, the FAA had a locked door policy before 9/11. And did it prevent it? Did it bollox.

I was lucky enough to ride in the jumpseat - as an anonymous pax - several times before 9/11. Was even given the captain's seat in the cruise once. These days, I wouldn't bother to ask for fear of arousing suspicion.

The locked door policy needs to be reviewed. There's a strong argument that allowing pax on the flight deck at the Captain's discretion actually enhances flight safety.

[lowbypass]

Give me five buddy!
These rules should 'handle' crew with care, too much fuss could actually trigger someone to do something catastrophic just to prove them wrong...with bare hands

[alexantrea]

I think this j/s nonsence regarding UK airspace is becoming very funny to say the least. I can not carry even my own son on the j/s. Hello..... he is my son!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[alexantrea]

A, and about this locked door policy. I completely agree with Wedge. It should be reviewed. I can't stand the noice of cabin crew calling me when they have something to tell me.

[lowbypass]

Own son?,
Own daughter?,
Own dad?,
Own mom? (a 76 year old mom causing a threat?)
Own wife? (maybe) :}
The rule could exclude at least kin of operating crew on a particular flight.
As a privilage.

[Old King Coal]

Certainly agree about son / daughter / relatives / good friends... being allowed in the flight deck, if only because they're safer locked in there with me than (God forbid) being discovered in the cabin by JohnnyT and his mates. But that said, I'd draw the line at my 'ex-wife'... as that really is one crazy bitch!... "Hell hath no fury...!"

For years it's been my assertion that the 'locked' flight deck door policy is nought but lip service to try and make passengers believe that 'security is in place'.

The locked door only works until that moment when the door is opened to bring us tea / coffee / food / newpapers / Cabin Tech Log / visit by Cabin Crew / etc... Wherein, imho, there's no way a little'ole Cabin Crew person is going to be able stop an assault by powerfully built trained killers.
And, somewhat ironically, if JohnnyT and his mates did manage to storm the flight deck you're gonna have the Devils own job to get the buggers out !

Furthermore, the flight deck door might well be capable of withstanding a certain level of ballistic assault... but the frame / bulkhead that houses it is not... so go figure?!

[undersiege]

Here is a post by someone called deplanedeplane. I do agree with Old King Cole, I sure you are a merry old sole. Lets include exgirlfriends, still to quick my my feet to get caught with the ring (handcuffs) put on my finger. But what an absolute loony tune, walking talking advertisement for Prozac.
I am sure planes can be adjusted to deplanes idea if airlines really wanted to give the pax the warm and fuzzys about security in place.
To Ray Cosmic
Quote:
Yeah, Right!
Tell that to the Fedex crew that got hammered, literally, by the jumpseater, who was also a fellow pilot and company employee. They survived, but if my memory is correct, none of that 3 man crew regained their medicals due to the injuries they received!
That is a good point there. But does it need to be the fellow pilot & company employee that does the hammering????? How about any one of the operating crew in flight that do have access to the flightdeck at anytime throughout the entire flight.
To Quote Main_Dog
Quote:
There's not much you can do to protect against the odd crazy or grudge-bearer who has made it through all our selection processes and screens.
Now before you all start bashing me with angry replies, I feel my comments here are warrented. If you want the boys and I should include girls these days up front to be safe. How about locking them in just before the last door to the a/c closes and it remains closed/locked until security at the other end enters the code and lets them out.
I am sure the flight deck can be extended back a little bit to include a bathroom and contain a small chiller that has drinks and food.
You can not get more secure than that. Until that happens all the rules about jump seats and the flight deck are all just BULLSH#T.
My two cents (worth less than crap now because of the falling USD)
DeplaneDeplane.

[windytoo]

Undersiege ,do you write George W Bush's speeches or do you just hold a dictionary upside down and let the words fall out in any random order? There is definately a job for you at the Grauniad.

[M.Mouse]

Own son?,
Own daughter?,
Own dad?,
Own mom? (a 76 year old mom causing a threat?)
Own wife? (maybe)
The rule could exclude at least kin of operating crew on a particular flight.
As a privilage.(sic)

The above, and previous posts in the same vein, sound reasonable but if you care to look further than your own narrow viewpoint how would you feel if your captain /co-pilot was a perfectly fine and decent muslim and wished his/her brother (for the sake of argument) to travel on the flight deck?

Given that the last terrorist outrage in the UK was carried out by otherwise fine upstanding members of the community it does, in my mind, throw a different light on the subject, much as I disllike the current rules.

[undersiege]

And about this locked door policy. I completely agree with Wedge. It should be reviewed. I can't stand the noice of cabin crew calling me when they have something to tell me.:*:*

No Worries mate, next time there is a hijacker we wont cabin crew to call you, or is that something you want to know about.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Keep that door shut, keep all distractions out. You are required to be at the controls unless you want the bathroom or a quick strecth of the legs. You really think a jumpseater is going to stay there the whole flight!!!! They will be in and out of the flight deck so often because they are bored and don't have to stay there. This is where the security of the flight deck fails.:ugh:

[alexantrea]

What do you mean keep all the distractions out, you are required to be at the controls? When cabin crew enter the flight deck you are not at the controls? You are at the controls and is not a distraction when the buzzer goes on and you have to fiddle with the switces to cancel it and then fiddle again with the switches to answer the call from the cabin crew just to be asked what you want to drink. And that is on a DVR5F SID out of LHR??????????????

[blimey]

You really think a jumpseater is going to stay there the whole flight!!!!
Absolutely no problem shorthaul. And for longhaul, a simple mod to provide a pre-door barrier wouldn't be too difficult.

[undersiege]

And for longhaul, a simple mod to provide a pre-door barrier wouldn't be too difficult.

I heard B.A. do something like this, not sure what. But until it becomes standard across all airlines.

KEEP THE DOOR SHUT AND EVERYONE BUT CREW OUT.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:: ugh::ugh:

[737opsguy]

Is anyone able to point me in the direction of any specific rules (FAA in US or otherwise) which dictate who is allowed on the Flight Crew.

One of our team members mentioned that there was a law in the US about passengers not being allowed in the jump seat at any time. I was wondering is this correct, and is it applicable to US carriers only.

Cheers

[MarkerInbound]

The US reg is:

Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 121—OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND SUPPLEMENTAL OPERATIONS (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=45f6a9c3a92ad7161a14112d3d8d79ed;rgn=div5;vie w=text;node=14%3A2.0.1.4.19;idno=14;cc=ecfr)
Subpart T—Flight Operations (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=45f6a9c3a92ad7161a14112d3d8d79ed;rgn=div6;vie w=text;node=14%3A2.0.1.4.19.20;idno=14;cc=ecfr)


Browse Previous (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=45f6a9c3a92ad7161a14112d3d8d79ed;rgn=div8;vie w=text;node=14%3A2.0.1.4.19.20.11.10;idno=14;cc=ecfr) | Browse Next (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=45f6a9c3a92ad7161a14112d3d8d79ed;rgn=div8;vie w=text;node=14%3A2.0.1.4.19.20.11.12;idno=14;cc=ecfr)
§ 121.547 Admission to flight deck.

(a) No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is—
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
(3) Any person who—
(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and
(ii) Is an employee of—
(A) The United States, or
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.
(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, employees of the United States who deal responsibly with matters relating to safety and employees of the certificate holder whose efficiency would be increased by familiarity with flight conditions, may be admitted by the certificate holder. However, the certificate holder may not admit employees of traffic, sales, or other departments that are not directly related to flight operations, unless they are eligible under paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
(c) No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except—
(1) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or authorized representative of the Administrator or National Transportation Safety Board who is checking or observing flight operations;
(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the Administrator to observe ATC procedures;
(3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate;
(4) A certificated airman employed by another part 119 certificate holder whose duties with that part 119 certificate holder require an airman certificate and who is authorized by the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft to make specific trips over a route;
(5) An employee of the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft whose duty is directly related to the conduct or planning of flight operations or the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by a responsible supervisor, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority; and
(6) A technical representative of the manufacturer of the aircraft or its components whose duties are directly related to the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by the Administrator and by a responsible supervisor of the operations department of the part 119 certificate holder, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority.

[Juud]

The days of doing favors is over unfortunately. We can no longer think "What are the chance's of that happening" This is the age of FLY SAFE, FLY SMART & DON'T TAKE ANY RISKS.

Undersiege, IMO you are wrong, or at best inaccurate. On several counts.

As evidenced on this thread, there are still major companies that allow the Captain of the aircraft to decide who sits on the cockpit jumpseats.
And you know why? Because management figures that if they can trust the guy/gal with such an expensive piece of equipment and the lives of a couple of hundred people day in day out, they can trust him/her to make a valid judgement about who can visit the cockpit.
Crazy concept what?

FLY SMART & DON'T TAKE ANY RISKS?
It doesn't say in your profile, but if you have anything to do with civil aviation at all, you should know that your statement is a load of crock. Risks are taken on each and every flight. That door gets opened on each and every flight.
Pilots get fed & watered, FAs visit for a chat and a cuppa.
That's still the reality of civil aviation.

Only El Al put their money where their mouth is. So unless that's your place of work, you are fooling nobody but yourself with those capital letters.

[undersiege]

Because management figures that if they can trust the guy/gal with such an expensive piece of equipment and the lives of a couple of hundred people day in day out, they can trust him/her to make a valid judgement about who can visit the cockpit.
I am sure the Captain of this flight thought he made a valid judgement about a fellow pilot & employee of the company:eek::eek::eek:
Tell that to the Fedex crew that got hammered, literally, by the jumpseater, who was also a fellow pilot and company employee. They survived, but if my memory is correct, none of that 3 man crew regained their medicals due to the injuries they received!
It doesn't say in your profile, but if you have anything to do with civil aviation at all
If you can look at my profile, so can anybody from senior management who's figure's disagree with what I say here. So I don't give everything about where I work out. I have pretty much lived out of a suitcase and have drunk a beer or two at the same hotel bars as you have or gone to the same nightclubs that hold crew nights around the world with the rest of the crew downroute:ok:
But there are still more precautions we can take to make it safer.
Step 1. And I will not budge on this. No jumpseats in flight deck, that includes company crew and crew of another airline.:ok:

[Old King Coal]

undersiege - The FedEx guys were whacked by a bloke that was obviously an A1 nutter (no pun intended)... and therein, when I'm part of the operating crew, who's to say that I mightn't be depressed / suicidal / have my family being held hostage / etc?... and thence decide / coerced to do the same thing, i.e. hit the FO on the head with the axe and dive the plane into, say, the House of Parliament, Buckingham Palace, etc?

And the same example could also be equally be applied to the Cabin Crew.. remembering that they're often in / out of the flight deck.

Therein it could well be argued that having somebody on the jump seat might prohibit a murderous intent by a crew member... or are you going to suggest that crew are always free from such vices?

And in case you haven't noticed the flight deck door is not kept shut... it's opened on a regular basis... wherein, when the door is opened, what most airlines do is put a food / drinks service trolley 'in the way' in an attempt to make it harder for JohnnyT and his mates to get past... yeah right ?! :E

[windytoo]

commitedtostay--i refer you my previous post on this subject!!!

[alexantrea]

To UNDERSIEGE

Lets keep that :mad: door build with bricks and concrete to finish with it.
Lets put a a toilet and a vending machine with chicolates and coffee in the flight deck, forget all about CRM, for which our companies pay a lot of money ( not that I believe to it much ), and "see you after landing boys and girls"

And by the way.... I am all the time in control of the aeroplane, the crew and the flight, even when a cabin staff member comes into the flight deck or even a fellow pilot who happens to travel with us on the day!

[lowbypass]

''Lets keep that :mad: door build with bricks and concrete to finish with it.
Lets put a a toilet and a vending machine with chicolates and coffee in the flight deck, forget all about CRM,''

...and "see you after landing boys and girls"

''And in case you haven't noticed the flight deck door is not kept shut... it's opened on a regular basis...''

THIS CLOSED DOOR POLICY IS LIKE UNDRESSING IN PUBLIC WHILE SHIELDED BY A CLEAR GLASS PARTITION

[alexantrea]

Completely aggree with you lowbypass.