Ex 10a/b/11 Slow Flight/ Stalling/Spin Avoidance

[llanfairpg]

EX 10A 10b 11

Anyone got any comments on the merits of these two/three exercises and the changes that dropping spinning brought about? Is PPL training flying better without the pure spin exercise? Is the slow flight element of the stalling exercise better than just a pure stall and recovery exercise, if yes why?

Does the slow flight exercise produce better stall awareness or is it a waste of time.

Do some clubs/schools gloss over the slow flying section 10A and concentrate on recognition and recovery as per old syllabus, just covering enough for eventual skills check.

Can you give brief details of how you cover this exercise including configurations and point of emphasis?

Really interested to know your views.
(Sorry if this has been covered before i did a search but could not find anything)

[portsharbourflyer]

The slow flight exercise is normally a very useful way of improving a students aileron/rudder coordination, due to the fact the adverse aileron yaw effect is much more pronounced at low speed.
The slow flight exercise is certainly useful in preparing a student for flying a final approach, I usually find when slow flying hasn't been covered adequately on the final approach a student will undercontrol with the rudder and overcontrol with the aileron. If you consider a C152 is cruised at 90kts and the approach flown at 65/60 knots then there is a considerable difference in the handling characteristics at these speeds, hence the slow flying is an exercise in refined flying control required for flying a final approach.

If Ex10a and 8 part 2 are covered well it certainly saves time at the circuit stage.

[llanfairpg]

I take your point about aileron/rudder but this is covered to a degree in effects of contols and turning? I found that covering slow flight at altitude without ground cues a little futile

[TheOddOne]

I take your point about aileron/rudder but this is covered to a degree in effects of contols and turning? I found that covering slow flight at altitude without ground cues a little futile

As I think I said the other day, I'm just finding out about teaching this stuff. I do find that the true slow flight, i.e. a couple of knots above the stall gives a MUCH better demonstration of the effects of controls than you achieve at 80kt, which is the standard speed for Ex 4 in a PA28 (at our place, at least) Get it down to true S&L at 50kt, then get them to do a 15 deg co-ordinated turn, the stall-warner just coming on, I think is a really good exercise and also a good introduction to the attitudes to be expected in the next lesson, intro to stalling. I get them to fly at 50kt in all 4 flap settings. As Portsharbourflyer says, it also teaches the refined flying control required on final.

Also, many students approach the thought of hte stallign exercise with trepidation. This exercise allows them to approach it in a systematic way, so that tere is no drama. Mind you, in a PA28, it's all pretty benign, anyway.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[portsharbourflyer]

I would also add that slow flying is not something I would dedicate a whole lesson on; it is something that can be tagged onto the end of other lessons, ie: if you have a 10 or 15 minute flight back to the airfield at the end of the exercise I would normally use some of the return leg to the airfield to practice slow flight.
As said I view slow flying as an exercise to refine handling and extension of the effects of controls rather than a pure stall awareness exercise.

80 knots standard speed for a PA28, your school is using too low a power setting, a PA28 will happily cruise at 90 to 100 knots.

[18greens]

Some thoughts...

Isn't some (or all ) of this exercise about being on the wrong side of the drag curve and you can't trade speed for height below Vmd. ie if you are slow and you need stretch the glide you aren't going to do it by raising the nose (as you would if you were above vmd.)

Demonstrating that full power at 45 kts will not produce a climb and how to get the ac back into climbing flight whilst losing min height before you need to do a full stall recovery.

Appreciating what the ac looks and feels like at this speed (nose high, sloppy controls not as noisy, lots of power required to keep S+L) and how to safely get back to normal flight and all of the comments above about control are useful in getting people to recognise this condition.

Appreciating the importance of reaching the rotation speed on takeoff before you lift off. Pulling the stick back before this point (if the trees are getting scarily close) is more likley to increase drag and lower climb performance. Contradictorily in this case its better to lower the nose to gain height rather than raise it.

Also you get a higher rate of descent below Vmd than at Vmd.

[FlyingForFun]

I agree with everything said so far.

In addition, I think it's important to understand the "normal" flight envelope, and to understand what happens if you push that envelope up to, and just past, its limits.

For most PPLs, once they've completed their training, stalling will not be a normal part of the their flying activities. Slow flight, though, definitely will be - every time they land. Therefore, it's vital that they not only understand slow flight, but also what happens if they get too slow, i.e. stalling. That is to say that the student understands what happens if he pushes the slow flight envelope too far.

Llanfairpg asked about spinning. For the average PPL, having a sound knowledge of stalls and stall avoidance is sufficient. The average PPL will very rarely set out to stall an aircraft, so with a good knowledge of how to avoid the stall (as well as how to fly in balance, of course), spin training is not really necessary (although there are always students who want to experience it, and I was always happy to teach students spinning, but only if they asked me).

On the other hand, us instructors are regularly expected to stall aircraft, so it is important that we understand what happens if we push this stall envelope too far (or, more likely, our students mess up). So having spinning in the FIC syllabus seems, to me, to be the right compromise.

But then I wasn't around back in the days when the PPL syllabus including spinning, and I know there are some strong feelings from those who were!

FFF
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[TheOddOne]

80 knots standard speed for a PA28, your school is using too low a power setting, a PA28 will happily cruise at 90 to 100 knots.

portsharbourflyer,

Looks like I haven't been explicit enough again!

We use 2400rpm cruise on the Warrior III which indicates at around 100kt. The 80kt I was referring to is the 'slow flight' speed we use to demonstrate (and get them to practice) on the 1st or 2nd lesson. My point is that whilst it IS slower than the cruise, the effects of slow flight aren't nearly as apparent at this speed as they are at 50kt.

18greens,

Very useful post, thanks.

TheOddOne

[portsharbourflyer]

Oddone,

Apologises if I misread your post; but thanks for the clarification that does make more sense.

[llanfairpg]

I am seeking discussion and information here so please do not take what i have put below as a criticism.

My point is that a lot of what makes up this exercise is covered elswhere (on my syllabus) and was before this exercise was introduced.

i am also not sure that stalling as an exercise should be completed in full before the circuit and needs to be revisited before first solo.

I have put my comments in bold

Isn't some (or all ) of this exercise about being on the wrong side of the drag curve and you can't trade speed for height below Vmd. ie if you are slow and you need stretch the glide you aren't going to do it by raising the nose (as you would if you were above vmd.)

Covered in EFATO/ PFL

Demonstrating that full power at 45 kts will not produce a climb and how to get the ac back into climbing flight whilst losing min height before you need to do a full stall recovery.

A part of stall recognition/ recovery training

Appreciating what the ac looks and feels like at this speed (nose high, sloppy controls not as noisy, lots of power required to keep S+L) and how to safely get back to normal flight and all of the comments above about control are useful in getting people to recognise this condition.

A part of stall recognition/recovery training

Appreciating the importance of reaching the rotation speed on takeoff before you lift off. Pulling the stick back before this point (if the trees are getting scarily close) is more likley to increase drag and lower climb performance. Contradictorily in this case its better to lower the nose to gain height rather than raise it.

A part of circuit training and possibly better understood after circuit training commences

Also you get a higher rate of descent below Vmd than at Vmd.

A part of PFL training

[barit1]

My father, who instructed a LOT during WWII, never returned to instructing as a career.

But he remained a resource to other instructors for another 40 years, often taking problem students and using his patience and observation skills to help them through their troubles.

At least half the time the student wasn't doing well in approach/landing, and Dad always addressed this with a period of slow flight, including approach turns & transitions from cruise to slow flight and back. This led the student to a level of comfort in that regime, which always helped the approach/landing problem.

(I should add - for a time the WWII AT-6 Texan/Harvard syllabus included placing a mask on the airspeed indicator so one could not read any speed below 90 kt IIRC, so only tactile and attitude cues were available to the student)

In fact, that's how he and I always checked out a new a/c type: Head for a healthy altitude, practice stalls & stall approaches, & turns in approach configuration, to see how honest (or not) the airplane behaves. :8

[deice]

I'm not sure if the PPL syllabus is exactly the same everywhere, but regardless, I find the slow flight excercise extremely valuable for many things. And we bring the aircraft (DA40D) down to at least 60 knots with and without flap. The problems that students seem to have are coordinating power and pitch attitude to maintain level flight as well as maintaining direction - not enough rudder. This requires a lot of coordination and attention to the trend of the aircraft. Once they can handle cruise - 60 knots and back with various flap movement they aslo seem to handle circuits better.
I have noticed a difference between students that had trouble getting the slow flight right vs those who didn't when it came to flying circuits.

With regards to stalling and spinning we don't spin but focus on stall and recovery. Also demonstrate cross control and spin entry and recovery.

I'm always anxious that a student thinks it's so much fun he'll go out and do it himself, on his own...

How far do you normally push the stall/recovery portion ?

[BristolScout]

Slow flight is important and can be a life-saver, but I agree with the previous comment that it is better covered in small doses on other exercises, rather than as a dedicated sortie, starting with Effects of Controls 2. I remember the great hoopla when the exercise was introduced. In fairness to the powers that be, it was seen as a necessary addition when spinning was discontinued. The problem with doing slow flight in bite-sized chunks, as I do, is ensuring the logbook unambiguously indicates that the required flight time has been undertaken. An annotation in the remarks column is as good as anything but I'm open to suggestions.

Perhaps we should take a leaf from the Americans' book and teach the chandelle?

[llanfairpg]

My understanding of the introduction at the time(and i was instructing then) that it was Campbells attempt to bring PPL training more in line with FAA requiremnts. At that time he was CFI of a school that was offering FAA PPL training. His encyclopeadic books also refelected his FAA influence. The books are long gone but the slow flying exercise is still with us.

[tacpot]

Does the slow flight exercise produce better stall awareness or is it a waste of time.


I do worry that slow flight is taught too much as an academic exercise, not as practical tool. Slow flight is useful for spacing in the circuit, when preparing for a precautionary landing, and in poor visibility and even when sightseeing! So it's definitely not a waste of time!

tp

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I was teaching slow flight today. trying to do it for a whole hour was going to be too much, so I just introduced the basics of what slow flight looked like, and how to recognize when you shouldn't be doing it. then how to do mit properly when you should be doing it (low viz etc).

The rest was over to stalling, with slow flight to be revisted over the coming lessons.

with all flight training, practical applications are what we need to emphasize to the student - i.e demonstrate the situation where you might get into stall/spin (or need a steep turn, or do a forced landing), rather than just showing the exercise by numbers.

There's nothing like youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM40t1KIGOo&feature=related) (about 50 sec in) to get a few clips of model aircraft getting into stall/spin crashes

[llanfairpg]

One of the problems I always felt with teaching stalling/slow flying is that it was so divorced form reality climbing to 3000 feet plus to teach self induced stall recovery. The best place to teach the exercise with some impact (pun) would be at 500 feet on finals!!! (yes i am joking).

reading all of your posts i am going to stick with teaching it as a part exercise

[tacpot]

Having taught it, will you ask the student to demonstrate it whenever possible?

[BristolScout]

Tacpot.

Not necessarily whenever possible, but certainly on a regular basis throughout the course.

[timzsta]

Slow flight is a lesson I believe is not paid by far enough attention too by many Instructors. It is a lesson on its own and not to be tagged onto the back of anything else.
It should begin by teaching the student how to fly straight and level (I use the example of the 152) at 65 knots. Then from S+L at 65 knots the student should be taught how to put the aircraft into climb maintaining the speed and then level off again. Same for a descent.
Then from 65 S+L put the aircraft into a turn demonstrating the need for additional power to maintain the airspeed.
Then teach S+L at 55knots with 2 stages of flap. Then climbing/descending/turning in this configuration.
Finally the Instructor should demonstrate a clean stall recovery without power to demonstrate to the student that there is nothing too scary about stalling which the student will know by then is the next lesson.
This lesson adds polish to handling skills but more importantly allows the student to grasp that pitch controls speed power controls altitude which is so important when you move onto flying in the circuit.
If you are not teaching your students this lesson you are not doing your job properly!

[llanfairpg]

But all of that can be covered in other exercises.

[FlyingForFun]

But would covering it in other lessons not gloss over it, without imparting its importance to students???

(I don't know the answer, it's just a question to debate.)

FFF
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[llanfairpg]

FFF

I know what you mean, thats why i asked the original question but looking at the answers I cannot see any reason for me changing so far but you may be right I may be glossing over it. I think i have an aversion to RC as an instructor(not as a person) and thats never helped

[TheOddOne]

I think i have an aversion to RC as an instructor(not as a person) and thats never helped

Yes, I can see how that might be getting in the way.

Now, as I've said elsewhere, I've only relatively recently done the FIC and have only taught slow flight and stalling a few times so far. However, I did my original PPL right on the cusp of the change from spin training to incipient stage avoidance (in fact we did both, just to be sure we'd covered all bases) so I can see the history of how we've arrived at what we're doing today.

On the FIC, due to the way the weather was at the time, we didn't sequence the slow flight, then stalling, but with other exercies in between. As was put at the time 'you probably won't have the luxury of teaching them to the same student in sequence' though so far, I have.

I consider that slow flight in my limited experience, should be briefied and then taught as a lesson on its own, followed as soon as practicable by the first of the stalling lessons. I've taken the opportunity to practice/polish climbing and descending with better heading control etc on the way out and back, along with a bit of consolidation of local landmarks and rejoin procedures and radio practice.

I like to think that the few folk I've done stalling with have approached it with much less trepidation after the slow flight lesson than they might otherwise and have also controlled the entry to the stall regime much better.

Just my view,

TheOddOne

[llanfairpg]

Thanks your comments are noted

[gulfairs]

Have a look at slow flight as it will be done in nz and the world will learn from us that invent the wheel on a daily basis!

http://www.caa.govt.nz/pilots/Proposal-Slow_Flight.pdf

This is to be examined, during a BFR and a Type ratings, and any time a big headed(small brain all bone) Instructor decides that it will be done or checked.(Once it is in legislation)

There has been a spate of climbing turn after takeoff accidents in NZ and indeed they have had fatal results.

But to grab the wrong end of the stick and interpret the FAA system of chandelles as a compulsory exercise, but done in the NZ way VSmin +5kts for CPL and VSmin + 10 for PPL in an aircraft at close to maximum all up weight, is a dopey exercise.
VSmin x 1.3 should be taught and practiced, but below this velocity, unless it is the best angle of climb speed, should be avoided at all times.

Bad weather(poor met) slow flying is a great exercise and particularly if carried out at 300ft agl, to simulate trying to creep back after getting caught.

But to bu***er around inside the buffet zone with a horn blowing or stall warning lite on, should only be shown as a "How to get out of this corner " exersize.

AMEN

bbg

[barit1]

When I took my instructor exam, more than a few decades ago, I demonstrated a chandelle as a max. performance manuver - i.e. rollling wings level just as the aircraft was beginning to burble pre-stall. This was the way several instructors had taught me, including Dad who had instructed in AT-6's. Stall warners were non-existent in many aircraft at that time.

But my examiner didn't like that one bit - he said the stall warner (C-172) should only be occasionally beeping as I rolled out. I said "Can I try it your way?" - and I did to his satisfaction. Maybe he was just looking at my ability to adapt to a different style manuver - in any case I passed the exam. :)

[rotorfossil]

It's is interesting to interpret the underlying psychology of the current training ideas. In the training ethos many years ago, stalling was considered as just another phase of flight and practiced from all sorts of attitudes, with/without flaps, power on/off, in turns etc. Spinning was then the big deal and approached with trepidation. Now spinning is not taught, stalling has become the bogey exercise. Is there a lesson there somewhere that anything which is not practiced much and with the inference that "here be tigers" is actually the problem?

[Say again s l o w l y]

One thing we need to do as FI's is to make sure that our students aren't scared by operating the aircraft.

I've always found slow flight to be a great way to teach handling ability and to breed confidence whilst demonstrating that the machine won't just fall out of the air when the speed is lower then normal cruise.

I don't just use speed conbtrol in a single lesson. I bring it in at all sorts of points, so people don't just use the "standard" power setting all the times without thought. That way they actually get an understanding of how the machine behaves and the difference between individual a/c.

Some good stuff on here, but there really is no need to complicate matters. As long as we get across the ability to fly the aircraft at slow speeds safely and what is actually happening, then job done. When, where and how is irrelevant really.

[Robin Pilot]

At the school I attend (yes I'm a student - reading this part of pprune as I get much valuable info from you guys) - spinning is part of the ab-initio training. Students going out to the training area solo and practising spins is on the syllabus and assesed for the GFPT test. Then again we're in fully aerobatic Robins - so we're not crumpling expensive airframes in the process. Personally, I'd much rather practice spin entry/exit and be confident performing them than trying to remember the "advice without demonstration and practice" when the poo hits the fan in FL situation.

There was a death here recently where a student from another school spinned his way to terra firma after an engine failure. Sure - it's more important to teach how to not get into a spin - but I reckon it's very good practice to rehearse the exit of a spin also.

[what next]

Hello!

Sure - it's more important to teach how to not get into a spin - but I reckon it's very good practice to rehearse the exit of a spin also.

I disagree. (And with me the writers of most training syllabi of the last 50 years...). You might be able to get your training aeroplane out of a spin during the first year after your course. But thereafter, this ability becomes gradually lost due to lack of training. And what worked fine on your trainig aeroplane might not work so fine on the aeroplane that you will fly once you have your license. Anyway, considering that most spinning accidents occur at very low level - usually at traffic pattern altitude or below - spin recovery practise is not something that is ever going to save anybody.

Greetings, Max

[Robin Pilot]

I take your point whatnext - but you haven't said anything to support the theory of not practising the technique.

I disagree that you'd suddenly forget the skill - especially if it's something you practice along with other emergency drills. Spin recovery would surely be a question of aerodynamics and the principles to recover the aircraft would be pretty much the same for every type.

As for not saving a crash - well it could have saved a life here very recently. And that was way outside the traffic pattern. Spins do happen outside the circuit - and people do get killed. If your aircraft allows you to practice recovery safely - it is foolish not to in my opinion.

Besides - spinning is heaps of fun!!

[tigerbatics]

I must say I agree with Robin Pilot. However the basic issue seems to be the nature of the flying people have actually done since gaining a licence. Those who have just toured around Europe, or wherever, or gone on to multi-engine flying,and assume their students will do the same, generally seem not to see the point of, in particular, spinning.

Frequent visitors to farm strips may take a different view.

The notion that an aeroplane is bound to crash if it spins at circuit height is often expressed but is simply not necessarily true with many, certainly older, types of aeroplane and possibly pilot. Obviously a multi turn power on flat spin is going to result in a pile of wreckage but a half or even one turn spin, properly dealt with, can often be recovered inside the available height. Anyway, no reason to give up and wait to crash because the instructor said it could not be recovered so was not worth learning.

I really do not like the idea of a pilot learning an 'incipient' anything without experiencing and fully understanding to what it is incipient.

[Troy McClure]

I always found slow flight (or at least slower than normal - say 60-70 knots) useful for students in quite early stages who were struggling with straight and level. Taking it from them, accelerating back to 90 knots and handing control back to them made them wonder what they ever found hard about S+L at normal airspeeds in the first place.

As for exercise 10A, I always demonstrated a full stall at the beginning of the exercise, otherwise the student was so frightened of stalling that they'd always lose altitude. The added advantage was that when I said we would do 10B next, there were no real concerns. I've come across some students (not my own) that had sleepless nights before doing 10B, when really stalling is no big deal (at altitude at least...).